Best 110 tough touring suspension set up

[Steve223]

Hi Together,

Just returned from 8 days in low range in the VHC and want a better suspension. currently have the Terrafirma +2 lift kit with TF shock mounts cranking arms etc with medium springs and run the big bore expedition shocks which started rubbing on the drop shock mounts. I also bottomed out from time to time when in my opinion I should not have.

Want the best touring suspension set up with +2 extra travel so new springs and shocks.

I heard you can get Bielstein in +2 and rebuild able does someone know where?

Does someone know a suspension specialist who knows Defers in Sydney"

Any recommendations?

Cheers

Steve

[Spence]

Hi Steve, I don't live in Sydney but I can definitely vouche for bilsteins. I have had numerous shocks setups, and the billies are streets ahead of everything else. Firm on road but still a nice smooth ride. Can take speed humps at whatever speed you want. As for off-road, the harder there pushed the better they get. Mine are 2" extended

[Drover]

I wouldn't think that the problem is your springs, more likely the dampers.

I have recently fitted a pair of KONI "Raids" to the rear and will order the fronts in next week or so.

Raids are probably the heaviest duty shocks on the market, but you'll pay for the privilege.

[isuzurover]

Air springs.

[87County]

I've got king springs hd (+2) & bilsteins - entirely satisfactory from my pov

[steane]

Pulled my hair out getting the suspension right. Ditched the lift and went with Koni Raids and LRA springs. Avoided the HD springs (previously tried Kings and Lovells) and went for a softer ride. Air bags in rear to assist when loaded up.

Rides and handles very nicely now both on and off-road.

Really depends on your setup and axle weights. Mine is a hardtop so has less weight in rear and as a result is harder to get right. 290lb rear springs and a dual wheel carrier got it sorted:D HD (whatever that means) springs were a complete fail.

[Sirocco]

Stick with the TF springs, they are good.

Another recommendation for Koni shocks, The early TF ones were utter crap.

You mention "TF shock mounts" are these drop mounts?

Try that, see how you go.

G

[Steve223]

Stick with the TF springs, they are good.

Another recommendation for Koni shocks, The early TF ones were utter crap.

You mention "TF shock mounts" are these drop mounts?

Try that, see how you go.

G


Yes the drop mounts which are to small for the TF expedition shocks as the diff moves so much as do shocks in mounts, thought about the KONI raids but thought you can't get them +2?

Previous owner set car up for solo travel so TF medium springs, I travelled solo but had a lot of gear with me would be even more if family is on board so assume medium springs are to light, can't go with airbags because of dislocation cones

[n plus one]

As a touring setup I'm pretty happy with my arrangement:

Dobinson 2 inch lift HD springs
Bilstein shocks - dual mounted at the rear
Rear helper air bags
Front and rear anti roll bars
TF castor correction radius arms
APT Fab cranked trailing arms

Not gunna' win any flex comps though!

[Steve223]

Hi Steve, I don't live in Sydney but I can definitely vouche for bilsteins. I have had numerous shocks setups, and the billies are streets ahead of everything else. Firm on road but still a nice smooth ride. Can take speed humps at whatever speed you want. As for off-road, the harder there pushed the better they get. Mine are 2" extended


Spence where did you buy them from? They are rebuild able ?

[Sirocco]

Well your likely getting shock problems because you have +2" springs/shocks and are then asking the shocks to drop a further 2". Its complicating things where complications are not needed.

Im running HD TF springs on my 90 with Koni shocks and have been quite happy (although I did blow a set of rear Konis last year).

Dont take the 'HD' 'Medium Duty' for what they are, check the actual spring rates.

For my 90, medium duty TF springs are the same spring rate as Old Man Emu HD springs, I ended up fitting HD TF springs which are the same spring rating as the Old Man Emu HDs for RCC and Disco.

G

[Vern]

A lot of guys are running remote canister bilsteins on here, they shipped them from the states. Have a search:)

[Steve223]

Well your likely getting shock problems because you have +2" springs/shocks and are then asking the shocks to drop a further 2". Its complicating things where complications are not needed.

Im running HD TF springs on my 90 with Koni shocks and have been quite happy (although I did blow a set of rear Konis last year).

Dont take the 'HD' 'Medium Duty' for what they are, check the actual spring rates.

For my 90, medium duty TF springs are the same spring rate as Old Man Emu HD springs, I ended up fitting HD TF springs which are the same spring rating as the Old Man Emu HDs for RCC and Disco.

G


Hm the set was a complete TF set would hope shocks, springs mounts, trailing arms would fit together I just replaced the sport shocks with expedition shocks.

[carlosbeldia]

Go Koni, it's the best way. I have HD LR springs due to high weights in bad roads every weekend...

[Wicks89]

The funny thing with suspension is that it's entirely subjective. Mine for example would probably have a lot of folks on here spitting chips, but I love it. You need to do 2 things:

1. Define what you want it to do, and
2. Try a few different set ups.

In my opinion if you just go and order some konis you'll probably just say they're great because it's easier to live with yourself then after dropping like 5000 on a set of shocks.

Make the effort to find some people with what you're considering and drive their rigs around. It could be worth going for +3" or it could be worth staying with what you've got. From what you've said it seems you've got a dislocating setup with just the +2 shocks and lowered mounts, sort of. Similar to just having a longer shock. Maybe not ideal for touring when you could get a flexy coil and some airbags to counter variable weights etc.

Some exemplar setups are Nuggets 110 setup (I say this because he took it everywhere so he's an expert IMO) and Cal415s puma 130 with full airbags.

Read those two threads and you will be illuminated.

[justinc]

The funny thing with suspension is that it's entirely subjective. Mine for example would probably have a lot of folks on here spitting chips, but I love it. You need to do 2 things:

1. Define what you want it to do, and
2. Try a few different set ups.

In my opinion if you just go and order some konis you'll probably just say they're great because it's easier to live with yourself then after dropping like 5000 on a set of shocks.

Make the effort to find some people with what you're considering and drive their rigs around. It could be worth going for +3" or it could be worth staying with what you've got. From what you've said it seems you've got a dislocating setup with just the +2 shocks and lowered mounts, sort of. Similar to just having a longer shock. Maybe not ideal for touring when you could get a flexy coil and some airbags to counter variable weights etc.

Some exemplar setups are Nuggets 110 setup (I say this because he took it everywhere so he's an expert IMO) and Cal415s puma 130 with full airbags.

Read those two threads and you will be illuminated.

$5k, for Raid 90's??? Are you kidding? Retail is like $1700 a set, and less than 3 hours to fit.
For the extra $3000 you could then have them airfreighted to Mongolia...overnight! :)

The Raid 90 is a fantastic shock.

JC

[Steve223]

$5k, for Raid 90's??? Are you kidding? Retail is like $1700 a set, and less than 3 hours to fit.
For the extra $3000 you could then have them airfreighted to Mongolia...overnight! :)

The Raid 90 is a fantastic shock.

JC

can I get them in +2" travel though??

[The Cone of Silence]

Hi Steve,

I recommend The Ultimate Suspension in Ingleburn, south Sydney. I went there on recommendation from Daniel at Mulgo and Brendan looked after me really well. A bespoke set-up for my Puma 110 Wagon with King Springs, a DC Prop shaft and springs with airbags in the rear. Shocks were their own - built to their specification and all comes with full warranty.

Give them a call.

Cheers

Bobby

[Vern]

can I get them in +2" travel though??

Yes, or look into using and land cruiser/patrol combo for the desired length

[Wicks89]

$5k, for Raid 90's??? Are you kidding? Retail is like $1700 a set, and less than 3 hours to fit.
For the extra $3000 you could then have them airfreighted to Mongolia...overnight! :)

The Raid 90 is a fantastic shock.

JC

Ok maybe I exaggerated just a little! :P still, it's probably more expensive to Darwin than Mongolia. Outrageous up here.

But my other advice stands. Define your requirement in measurable terms. How many kgs and how much lift. There are many obliging defender drivers on here, so go for some joy rides then make a decision.

[ScottyD]

Spent a while trying to get mine right. Completely agree that setup's are personal and subjective. You must weigh your truck before doing anything. I haven't listed anything technical about handling below, just how the car felt to me.

I went through:

1. Std 2011 110 Springs + Std Shocks - So much sag and I found the handling inconsistent/floaty especially once loaded up.

2. Genuine HD 110 F/R Springs + Std Shocks - Front sat too high, Rear too Low. Handling was better but still inconsistent/floaty.

3. TF Medium F/R Springs + TF Pro Sport 2" Front Shock + TF Big Bore 2" Rear Shock - Handling was softer than standard, better controlled. Went down the track of dislocation cones etc. I had endless problems with the rear sway bar inverting regardless of what I did. The Rear dislocation cones were so noisy too.

4. TF Medium F/R Springs + Pro Sport + Std Length Bilsteins (Rears are the firmer version) - What a difference, but was a little firm on road and lacked flex off road in the front. Front sat a little too high, Rear a little too Low.

5. Les Richmond Springs 180lbs Front, 320lbs Rear + Std Length Bilsteins (Rears are the firmer version) - In love. Can definitely be firm on road over small bumps but it never feels too firm and never feels out of control or floaty. Off road or on large bumps on road the control is amazing. Flex/grip off road is excellent too. Bump stops are about 80/110mm loaded F/R.

It is worth mentioning I setup my fender for touring with weigh split of around 1000/1800 F/R.
Hope that all makes sense :)

[Steve223]

Hi Steve,

I recommend The Ultimate Suspension in Ingleburn, south Sydney. I went there on recommendation from Daniel at Mulgo and Brendan looked after me really well. A bespoke set-up for my Puma 110 Wagon with King Springs, a DC Prop shaft and springs with airbags in the rear. Shocks were their own - built to their specification and all comes with full warranty.

Give them a call.

Cheers

Bobby

thanks, great tip have car booked in next Tuesday

[steane]

Spent a while trying to get mine right. Completely agree that setup's are personal and subjective. You must weigh your truck before doing anything. I haven't listed anything technical about handling below, just how the car felt to me.

I went through:

1. Std 2011 110 Springs + Std Shocks - So much sag and I found the handling inconsistent/floaty especially once loaded up.

2. Genuine HD 110 F/R Springs + Std Shocks - Front sat too high, Rear too Low. Handling was better but still inconsistent/floaty.

3. TF Medium F/R Springs + TF Pro Sport 2" Front Shock + TF Big Bore 2" Rear Shock - Handling was softer than standard, better controlled. Went down the track of dislocation cones etc. I had endless problems with the rear sway bar inverting regardless of what I did. The Rear dislocation cones were so noisy too.

4. TF Medium F/R Springs + Pro Sport + Std Length Bilsteins (Rears are the firmer version) - What a difference, but was a little firm on road and lacked flex off road in the front. Front sat a little too high, Rear a little too Low.

5. Les Richmond Springs 180lbs Front, 320lbs Rear + Std Length Bilsteins (Rears are the firmer version) - In love. Can definitely be firm on road over small bumps but it never feels too firm and never feels out of control or floaty. Off road or on large bumps on road the control is amazing. Flex/grip off road is excellent too. Bump stops are about 80/110mm loaded F/R.

It is worth mentioning I setup my fender for touring with weigh split of around 1000/1800 F/R.
Hope that all makes sense :)

Similar story. I killed a set of Ultimate shocks on one outback trip. Tried billies in the rear (not bad but not like the Raids). I tried Lovells and King Springs and settled on 180lb LRA springs in the front and 290lb LRAs in the rear so very similar to you. It is a great setup. Been through the HC, on some of the tougher tracks and had no issues.

Personally for touring I'd forget the 2" lift and get Raids as a set and forget shock that will deal with anything.

If I spent more time rock hopping and wanted more clearance/travel/flex then I'd look at a different setup, maybe one of the LRA long travel kits or something, but for touring the lift in a Defender is a moot point IMO unless you are wanting to run bigger rubber and need the height.

[Steve223]

Interesting from Les Richmonds web site

As the above list proves retrofitting any of the Toyota or Nissan shockers into a Land Rover is not worthwhile. The two best non Land Rover shoclers are the Toyota 75 series rear and the Nissan GQ/GU rear. Even though they are rear shockers they would have to fitted to the front. to fit these the mounts have to modified by 44mm to achieve a minimal 23mm of extra travel. The most important figure to look at is the closed length in relation to the factory shocker closed length. What this figure means is if a shocker is fitted with a longer closed length the suspension is unable to fully travel upwards or bottom out. This will decrease shocker life and in accident situations can be dangerous. Vehicles are made with safty margins and when modifications are made it is important not to affect these margins. The White Tiger 30% travel kit has been made to take all these perametres into account.
The next measurement to look at is how much extra travel will be obtained fitting the shockers. As quite visable in the chart above some shockers do not actually offer alot more travel even though they are quite long in the open length. Also check the mounting systems and how much work is required to fit them, the valving of the shocker, is it suitable for another vehicle. There are many many factors to take into account and to be aware of.

All figures supplied above are for standard monotube Bilstein shockers.

More to the travel argument. LR Automotive has spent a lot of time and effort to supply a shocker to improve the already great Land Rovers wheel travel. For example we could have had shockers made with 150mm more travel and yes it would look impressive in full articulation but the engineering would be enormous and the actual improvement would be next to nothing over the long travel shockers we currently supply. Not to mention how unstable and dangerous the vehicle would be in cornering and side slopes.

The reason for this statement is: A vehicles wheel travel is only as good as the wheel with the least amount of traction on an articulation ramp. We have found that once the wheels articulate more then aprox 2 ¼ inches over standard the unloaded wheel is not driving the vehicle forward. Thus giving no real value to forward motion. A vehicle with true wheel travel should be measured without the assistance of front or rear diff lock or automatic locker of any type. Once the unloaded wheel spins the car will no longer drive forward. This is true useful wheel travel. If a front or rear diff lock is engaged the vehicle can drive further up the ramp. It might raise a wheel by another 100mm or more before the unloaded wheel actually lifts off the ground, but this wheel has not assisted in the vehicles forward movement. In competitions the vehicle with the most wheel travel wins. I have not yet competed without the use diff locks and the winners are mainly vehicles with drop axles (when the spring is no longer attached to the body, only to the axle). It looks impressive but actually serves no purpose and is extremely dangerous. These wheel travel comps should not allow the assistance of diff locks of any type.

Les Richmond Automotive uses the White Tiger long travel kit along with custom long travel Koni shockers to set up classic Range Rover’s and Discovery’s. When fitted the axle will drop from a factory length of 6 ½” to 9” measured at the bump stop. This is around 30% more wheel travel. Depending on the vehicle and personal requirements the maximum LR Automotive will raise a vehicle is 4 ½” front and 6” rear bump stop clearance. This set up gives in round figures 4 ½” up travel and 4 ½” down travel in the front and 5 ½” up travel and 3 ½” down travel. This is a great balance of upwards and downwards travel which is safe and very useable. If raising a vehicle to this height LR Automotive would highly recommend the fitting of modified swivel housings to correct the front axle geometry giving the vehicle factory specifications even though it is a far from factory vehicle. See Castor Correction Solutions (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d658.html).

Spring Facts

Springing a vehicle also can increase or decrease how effective a vehicle is on an articulation ramp. The softer the springs the more static wheel travel is available. This is great for the ramp up test but in reality it is not the best. The way we like to set up vehicles on articulation ramps is to have about 1.5" to 2" bump stop clearence when the unloaded wheel raises off the ground. The reason for this is to allow for vehicle momentum. The momentum even at 10Km/h witt close the 1.5" to 2" giving a smoother and more controlable drive. The softly sprung vehicles will bottom out onto the bump stop harder causing the vehicle to jerk / bounce. We at LR Automotive also like to add a slightly stronger spring to the front. Even though it will not articulate as well on hilll climbs when all the vehicle weight is transfered to the back of the car but will work much better on down hill decents allowing the front axle to move freely with less bottoming out. We have many springs available for Land Rover, and the choice can be a bit daunting. Visit our Coil Spring (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d665.html)section to understand what we offer.

[steane]

In my experience Ultimate are great to deal with. I have dealt with Brendan a number of times and he goes out of his way for you. I found LRA to be the opposite initially but they came good and were very helpful in the end.

The kit that Ultimate sent me didnt work, but they also did it sight unseen and based on limited knowledge of the vehicle. Long story but I ordered via a friends business and just got their standard Defender setup. I should have gone direct and let Brendan grill me about the vehicle setup. If you go in to see them I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Personally, with the benefit of hindsight I'd be talking to LRA as well. They have springs and shocks made and modified specifically for landys. Get some axle weights and let them know what you want and I reckon you'll be happy with them as well.

No reason why Ultimate wont get LRA springs in for you and combine with their shocks either. Could be a good source of LR specific springs for Ultimate.

[justinc]

In my experience Ultimate are great to deal with. I have dealt with Brendan a number of times and he goes out of his way for you. I found LRA to be the opposite initially but they came good and were very helpful in the end.

The kit that Ultimate sent me didnt work, but they also did it sight unseen and based on limited knowledge of the vehicle. Long story but I ordered via a friends business and just got their standard Defender setup. I should have gone direct and let Brendan grill me about the vehicle setup. If you go in to see them I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Personally, with the benefit of hindsight I'd be talking to LRA as well. They have springs and shocks made and modified specifically for landys. Get some axle weights and let them know what you want and I reckon you'll be happy with them as well.

No reason why Ultimate wont get LRA springs in for you and combine with their shocks either. Could be a good source of LR specific springs for Ultimate.


I am starting to sell their products shortly down here, I have found ken and Brendan very helpful and VERY knowledgeable. I have a complete kit on order for the work ute, and will be ready to sort Defender and Disco kits soon.

High quality stuff, and local input/ manufacture.

JC

[steane]

I am starting to sell their products shortly down here, I have found ken and Brendan very helpful and VERY knowledgeable. I have a complete kit on order for the work ute, and will be ready to sort Defender and Disco kits soon.

High quality stuff, and local input/ manufacture.

JC

Sounds good. :cool:

[Steve223]

Found out yesterday why I'm bottoming out. After speaking to Andrew from LRA and he suggesting the TF kits often don't include all necessary parts it seems like they don't supply brackets to raise the rear shock mounts by the extra 2" inches so the shock itself is is hitting its stops and can't fully compress.

Not very impressed by the Terrafirma stuff I have to say.

Gordon from oposit lock recommended tough dog adjustable big bore.

Won't go with bilestein due to the single tube design so either LRA Koni or Ultimate suspension.

I like that they will look at who car and I guess less guess work is involved, they also seem to be the cheapest

[chook73]

Found out yesterday why I'm bottoming out. After speaking to Andrew from LRA and he suggesting the TF kits often don't include all necessary parts it seems like they don't supply brackets to raise the rear shock mounts by the extra 2" inches so the shock itself is is hitting its stops and can't fully compress.

Not very impressed by the Terrafirma stuff I have to say.

Gordon from oposit lock recommended tough dog adjustable big bore.

Won't go with bilestein due to the single tube design so either LRA Koni or Ultimate suspension.

I like that they will look at who car and I guess less guess work is involved, they also seem to be the cheapest

I couldn't agree more, the TF stuff was less than average. I took mine to Ultimate suspension and they have been awesome, just be very clear on what you would like to do with the vehicle and how you plan to use the vehicle and they will get it right or at least they did with mine.

[chook73]

Hey Steve how did you go with your suspension, did you get it sorted?

[Steve223]

Hey Steve how did you go with your suspension, did you get it sorted?


Goes in to ultimate suspension tomorrow :-) so hopefully ready for MT Airly next weekend, still waiting for swaybar with disconnects from UK though and will also get Tom Woods double cardan driveshaft installed by ultimate.

Also ordered some second air internal beedlocks hope to have them installed this week to :-)

[Steve223]

Can pick car up tomorrow looks pretty good so far, Ultimate has been a pleasure to deal with and kept me up to date all the way. Can't wait to take Defender up Mt. Airly on the weekend

Here is Brandon's reply

"I just wanted to let you know that everything has gone really well with your defender. We had an insanely busy day so the guys had to stay back a bit a bit to finish fitting the suspension.

We have driven the vehicle and tested the travel on our two ramps. I believe you are going to be extremely happy with the result. The vehicle rides beautifully, sits very well and is one of the only tourers to make it up our two ramps ;). I have attached a few photos of it flexing on our ramps for your reference."

The price is very competitive so looking forward how the suspension behaves in real live


78206
78205

[steane]

That's pretty impressive :cool:

[Judo]

Looks great! Keen to hear what spring ratings you have ended up with. :)

[justinc]

A great result by the looks of it!

Jc

[uninformed]

are they gatling guns on your bull bar :D

[isuzurover]

Glad you are happy with the result. The service from those guys sounds good.


...
I have attached a few photos of it flexing on our ramps for your reference."
...

Hate to break it to you, but I have photos of my '68 IIA doing the same...

[Steve223]

Glad you are happy with the result. The service from those guys sounds good.







Hate to break it to you, but I have photos of my '68 IIA doing the same...


That is great mate

[Steve223]

3" lift without spacers

kids will need a ladder to get in now :-)
78216

[chook73]

Looking good Steve

[Steve223]

Heavy duty X-Deflex Sway bar Disconnect installed tonight

78255
78256

Will go for a drive tomorrow to see the difference never drove a Defender with sway bar

[mools]

3" lift without spacers

kids will need a ladder to get in now :-)
78216

Is it just the photo or is it nose down?

Ian.

[Steve223]

Is it just the photo or is it nose down?



Ian.


Unloaded will/should settle once loaded

[Drover]

Look very nice Steve, love that flexed up picture !

[Steve223]

ok suspension is installed as are is the X-Deflex Heavy Duty Sway Bar with swivel hub Disconnect, and the Tom Woods heavy duty drive shaft.

took defender up mt Airlie and went pretty well so quite happy with suspension at this stage.

http://youtu.be/UQ_ZChxsxRw

the swaybar decreases departure angle and I already bent it though :-(

[Steve223]

just returned from 2 1/2 weeks in flinders and very happy with suspension. I was a good move to use superior :-). unfortunately had to remove my sway bar with swivel disconnect as it rubs on custom exhaust I have

[steane]

just returned from 2 1/2 weeks in flinders and very happy with suspension. I was a good move to use superior :-). unfortunately had to remove my sway bar with swivel disconnect as it rubs on custom exhaust I have

So would you say that Superior is the 'Ultimate' when it comes to suspension? :p

Glad to hear it is working well.

I came back from the Simpson via the Flinders a few weeks ago and the place is stunning. Looks more like a European mountain range. It was ridiculously green and the amount of wild life was incredible. You'd be forgiven for thinking the farmers were farming kangaroos.

I've never seen it like that before.

[jem510]

hi Steve the best place to get bilsteins is Sydney Shock and no i don't work for them the hook me up with a set up for my disco. Can not be happier with it these guys know there stuff.

[Steve223]

So would you say that Superior is the 'Ultimate' when it comes to suspension? :p

Glad to hear it is working well.

I came back from the Simpson via the Flinders a few weeks ago and the place is stunning. Looks more like a European mountain range. It was ridiculously green and the amount of wild life was incredible. You'd be forgiven for thinking the farmers were farming kangaroos.

I've never seen it like that before.

Lol yes meant Ultimate Suspension so far very happy :-)

[DieselDan]

just returned from 2 1/2 weeks in flinders and very happy with suspension. I was a good move to use superior :-). unfortunately had to remove my sway bar with swivel disconnect as it rubs on custom exhaust I have

Hi Steve,
I think that must have been you packing up from Arkaroola when myself and a mate arrived in two D1s.
Very very nice looking bus you have there :D


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[Steve223]

Hi Steve,
I think that must have been you packing up from Arkaroola when myself and a mate arrived in two D1s.
Very very nice looking bus you have there :D


Sent using AULRO mobile app

Thanks Mate, yes remember you two camping opposite us close to amenities, hope you had a great stay

[DieselDan]

Thanks Mate, yes remember you two camping opposite us close to amenities, hope you had a great stay

Yes ta, we had a great time there. Third time I've been, but the first for my mate.
He had his old man with him and we'd been bush camping for the previous week, so he was particularly keen on being close to the dunny!!!! :D