BIO-Fuel stuffing things up

[Druid 66]

Just had a roadworthy done today on my 95-Disco-TDi300 and have been told my Fuel Injector Pump has started to leak and will probably either need replacing or reconditioning - Then after visiting a local diesel specialist for more information they gleefully informed me that without even looking this was `more than likely` because ALL older diesel engines are no longer compatible with the new fuel available the pumps :o Which means that all owners of any pre-95 diesels can now look forward to MASSIVE repair bills to anything fuel related - Needless to say I was less than impressed with this depressing bit of news :( but not as mortified as I was with the estimate of "Up-To $2200.00"!!! to rebuild a Bosch FIP :eek:

The following search seem to confirm this bad news too...
Diesel Bob Tuning - Diesel Forever? (http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/dieselforever.aspx)

Plus this thread from the same site may also be interesting to anyone else who is remotely interested
Diesel Bob Tuning - Diesel Fuel (http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/DieselFuel.aspx)

:confused:

[85 county]

Just had a roadworthy done today on my 95-Disco-TDi300 and have been told my Fuel Injector Pump has started to leak and will probably either need replacing or reconditioning - Then after visiting a local diesel specialist for more information they gleefully informed me that without even looking this was `more than likely` because ALL older diesel engines are no longer compatible with the new fuel available the pumps :o Which means that all owners of any pre-95 diesels can now look forward to MASSIVE repair bills to anything fuel related - Needless to say I was less than impressed with this depressing bit of news :( but not as mortified as I was with the estimate of "Up-To $2200.00"!!! to rebuild a Bosch FIP :eek:

The following search seem to confirm this bad news too...
Diesel Bob Tuning - Diesel Forever? (http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/dieselforever.aspx)

Plus this thread from the same site may also be interesting to anyone else who is remotely interested
Diesel Bob Tuning - Diesel Fuel (http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/DieselFuel.aspx)

:confused:

well that will be news to many, and sounds like a load of rubbish.

so is it your injector pump or lift pump thats leeking. last lift pump i got from TRS was about 200 bucks.

[101 Ron]

Not a load of rubbish.
The article link is for the UK and not Aust.
Low sulphur diesel goes though a acid treatment to remove the sulphur in the fuel and other things.
The treatment removes most of the lubrication effects of the diesel fuel.
Rotary diesel injection pumps........CAV...DPA..........Bosch VE were designed to be lubricated by the fuel its self.
These injection pumps suffer.
Older inline pumps use oil for most of their lubrication. and are less affected as are new common rail computer controlled systems as they are designed for the new diesel fuels.
The rotary pumps tend to need the input gear shaft seal replaced from standard to newer designed replacement ones made from better materials as is the case for throttle input shaft seal........but is not the complete answer.
I am going to stir up a can of worms.........personally I find a small amount of Two stroke oil added to the diesel fuel helps the rotary pump injection pumps greatly.

[Druid 66]

Stir away - This sort of thing deserves a Class-Action I say - After-all it`s the little guy with an older vehicle who gets hit here :soapbox:

No 85 it`s the exxie FIP we`re talking about here :( not a 50 buck lift-pump pay-pal`d off ebay :cool:

BTW My own mechanic, the roadworthy-garage AND the diesel-specialist did say that it could affect ANY component in an older fuel system with rubber or moving parts - Including Injectors, Lift-pumps and connecting hoses :eek:

I`m thinking of going with the adding mineral oil thing too before it stuffs anything else up?!

[Tombie]

The 2 stroke will add the lubrication, but the elastomer aren't always designed for (or compatible with) the chemicals/properties in the fuel as this changes.

Using known quality brand fuels with the additive packages that some manufacturers put into it makes a big difference.

As for a class action... Please... If we all sat back holding onto old technology we would never progress... Some things will change, things will become obsolete or need upgrading to continue to function.

Yes, this is unfortunate, and can be pricey... So I understand in the case of your pump that it hurts.

The mechanic may be correct - but then again, how olds the pump since its last overhaul? It could just be age has finally got to it.

But, avoid supermarket fuel supplies, and yes - In older mechanical diesels, I agree a shot of 2 stroke isn't a bad thing.

[eddy]

Went through the same scenario some time ago,with leaks from the spindle and top cover gasket on my 300tdi injector pump.When I mentioned vehicle was 1995 manufacture,local diesel mob recommended complete overhaul of pump[at great expense].I replaced spindle and seals for about $25,no further leaks.The procedure is well covered on Aulro and LR4x4 sites,pretty straight forward, just make sure you are meticulously clean and put things back as they originally were.

[Druid 66]

Thanks for the replies so far :)

Went back to the diesel-joint to grab some new 4mm fuel pipe today for my TDi200 Deffa and I mentioned the mineral oil idea to the guy on the counter - He did`nt disagree that adding some engine-oil or a splash of two-stroke `might` help with lubrication but almost fell over himself to add that "it won`t stop the original seals being attacked by the new fuel though!" :twisted:

So with this joyful prediction in mind and moi being understandably reluctant at chucking over 2K at a mechanically-operated fuel-pump on a 4K-Car - I think I might have to have a look at the loin-girding links that eddy has most kindly mentioned :cool:

Does anyone remember a particularly good thread on the subject??

[Blknight.aus]

sounds like a cods load of bull to me...

theres plenty of examples of diesels being run on

Avtur
JP 5,6,7,8
kero

I run mine on anything that can be made to get liquid enough to inject and burn without predetonation (petrol) although I have on occasion added petrol to a particulalry contaminanted mix of bad vege oil to get it to run.

its not particualarly difficult to do the top seals on the IP nor is it hard to do the distributor head seal, theres even a method of being able to do it without pulling the unit apart by using some longer bolts and just sliding the seal over the top after you cut the old one away.

once the shaft seal begins to leak into the timing housing, you just set yourself up to do a timing belt change, pull the IP out and send it off to have a minimum parts change and reseal. should cost you no more than $500 if everything is in good order and not more than $1000 unless you have damaged the housing or busted up the springs or other not normaly wearing parts.

hell if you need to borrow one to send off for a refit let me know I have 3 spares now that just sit there waiting for one of mine to play up, I send one off get it resealed and sorted (or order in a kit and do it myself depending on time available) then just swap it in when it gets back.

the ULSD fuel is the one that will give you problems and it will dry the seals out and ULSD isnt bio, thats traditional Dino diesel thats been over refined to get rid of things to keep the greenies happy and the refineries because now they get to charge the earth for what is now a "produced product" rather than a byproduct of producing petrol.

[Druid 66]

Quite right it`s the Ultra Low Sulfur Tack that seems to give the problems NOT the Bio my mistake :) - SOoo forgive my ignorance but am I right in saying that the ULSD version can be avoided then?! - I mean everybody knows that petrol comes in different grades at the pumps but I thought that diesel was diesel and we oilers just had to chuck in whatever the bloke dropped off in the tanker :D

More frantic debate here on the subject BTW:cool: http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic878.html?highlight=oil

[roverrescue]

Druid
Out of interest
Just which seal is leaking?

If it is the stem seal (where the throttle is attached) - this likely has nothing to do with monkey juice and is more just an age time thing. Very simple to replace the o-rings and seal it up.
Sure make yourself feel better by using viton seals but I wouldn't be rushing a pump to a dieso specialist for a stem seal leak.

S

[Druid 66]

Not there I`m afraid - It`s round the back somewhere underneath, up by where it goes into the timing case :(

[Blknight.aus]

most likely that will be one of the pivot bushes or the top cover seal leaking near the top and running down the face.

[ramblingboy42]

I don't think there is any possible way of choosing your diesel fuel anymore.

AFAIK once the Brisbane refinery stops production (which only supplies around a 100km proximity to Brisbane) , all diesel fuel in Australia will arrive by ship from Singapore.

It is one brand.

I spoke recently to tanker driver and funny as it sounds , the further the diesel is trucked , the cleaner it gets.

The driver was telling me that after a long haul, a large quantity of sludge settles out into the tanker's sump , which unuseable for anything but road fill or bunker if centrifuged.

So, it's all the same now , except Brisbane metropolitan , foams like hell and ****s the seals in old pumps.

Yes, 2 stroke (not synthetic though) does help.

Some do it 200:1 which I think is excessive.....more like 500:1 is my thinking.

Possibly in a td5 with its hi temp hi volume recirculating system @ 200:1 you could be ok.

But like the guy said, it might lube your pump but doesn't stop seal contamination.

[Druid 66]

Thanks for your help guys - I`ve now ordered a seal kit off Ebay for `bugger-all`- BOSCH diesel fuel pump repair kit Land Rover Defender 2.5TDi Discovery 2.5TD | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOSCH-diesel-fuel-pump-repair-kit-Land-Rover-Defender-2-5TDi-Discovery-2-5TD-/171273543089'ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:AU:1120) - I`ll let you know how I get on with the rebuild when it comes - Thanks again all :)

BTW An extra BIG thanks to Blknight for these links too :cool:

injection pump reseal: leaking seal replacement- Bosch VE model on VW or Audi TDI | VW TDI forum, Audi, Porsche, and Chevy Cruze diesel forum (http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/injection-pump-reseal-leaking-seal-replacement-bosch-ve-vw-audi-tdi/)

Bosch diesel injection pump rebuild (http://gnarlodious.com/Vanagon/Bosch_Pump/-Rebuild)

[RANDLOVER]

As an extensive user of Bio-diesel I can confirm no problems with fuel seals in either my previous D2 which I ran on Bio for about 5 yrs nor on my present D3 2.7 which I've done for over a year now. Also my mate 3-Gees who brews the Bio ran a D1 Tdi 300 for about 5 yrs and and has been running a D2 TD5 for approx. the last 5 yrs on Bio without seal problems. Bio actually acts as a lubricant in diesel, even at percentages as low as 5 or 10% IIRC. Freedom used to sell a B-20 blend here in Brisbane which I've also used but I think it was more economic to move the plant overseas due to taxes, excise, etc.

[Snagger]

I had my 200 and 300 pumps and injectors rebuilt by DieselBob Tuning. He is pretty good and knows what he is talking about. I had the 200 set up to run vegoil as well as diesel - he uses heavier duty parts and special seals for that, as vegoil also attacks the standard rubber parts.

I can't say about the rest of the EU, but the UK has a lot of diesel vehicles and almost all fuel stations have two grades of diesel, just like petrol. The higher grade is marketed for higher performance, but does give better mpg, runs smoother and has lubricants and cleaning agents in it which make it quite apparent to the interested driver which type they're running on. There is a noticeable difference in the characteristics between different suppliers, too. I found the BP premium diesel by far the best, Texaco the worst (noticeably worse than supermarket stations like Tesco and Asda).

[isuzurover]

FFS this thread is piles of the proverbial, sprinkled with misinformation.

Australian diesel is equivalent to the best standards worldwide. Including lubricity.

I was just at an international conference where the same was confirmed.

Modern fuels are actually better quality than the old high sulphur fuels (including lubricity), however the aromatic content has changed, which makes life tougher for old seals which have already gone hard.

Modern commonrail diesels actually are much more sensitive to lubricity than older diesels.

At the end of the day seals wear out and need to be replaced.

All diesel in AU must conform to the same spec. There are only 3(?) refineries supplying most of the retail diesel in AU these days.

[ramblingboy42]

I had a very good run with biodiesel in my td5, but now I own a commonrail vehicle I am trying to find answers.

I have been on the ARfuels and the Australian Biodiesel websites this morning just trying to get a positive response.

the ARfuels site waxes lyrical about several large truck fleets running their product and that they sell to Shell for mixing , but none are actually game to say their product is ok for any particular brand of common rail diesel engine.

They say emphatically that it burns better , cleaner , increases lubricity so it should not damage any mechanical item it contacts.....that in fact is a superior product to dinodiesel......then why doesn't our country, our government , and the motor vehicle manufacturers who endorse the new low sulphur blends , give endorsement to what is touted as a superior product all round to the benefit of every diesel engined vehicle and to the environment.

Am I missing something here?

Are the biodiesel producers not handing enough kickback to the govt to get the endorsement it needs?

Are the motor vehicle manufacturers around the world in collaboration with the major dinodiesel producers?

As mentioned earlier there is some serious bull**** going down here.

[Tombie]

The reason is pressure... under the severe pressures of a Common Rail the Bio changes behaviour- and can do real damage to injectors and pumps..

And Bio fuel on mass has less calorific energy, so consumes significantly more for the same distance.

And a little touted issue - BioDiesel generates MORE emissions than Dino Diesel [emoji41]

[ramblingboy42]

yeah Tombie , I have read and understood what you and many others say and it was because of another report where $12,000 damage was done as a claimed result of using a biofuel in a common rail diesel that I did a bit of research this morning.

The two organisations I mentioned above refute this and make the claims that I have mentioned , hence my comment about bull**** flying around.

ARfuels claim they have had trucks with common rail systems total more than a million km of trouble free driving.

I think when companies such as these make claims like they have , that they should back it up with hard evidence.

Maybe I should let them sponsor and warrant my vehicle , I'll even let them sign write it.

Den

[Tombie]

Indeed. And when I became aware of the NOx increases in Biofuel etc was quite stunned..

That craps worse than a VW engine!!!

[RANDLOVER]

Indeed. And when I became aware of the NOx increases in Biofuel etc was quite stunned..

That craps worse than a VW engine!!!

You're missing the point on NOx, as bio-diesel is a renewable resource any NOx is used up by the next crop of canola, sunflower, etc used to make bio. Unless of course one is huffing it straight out of the exhaust! When viewed in the full cycle, virtuous circle Bio-diesels are actually zero emissions unlike even the cleanest burning diesels which are cumulative emitters.

EDIT: To clarify, I might be incorrect that canola, etc absorb NOx, the only studies I can find are on trees absorbing such, so bio-diesel can be proven to be carbon neutral, but not NOx neutral thus far.

[Tombie]

Rapeseed is hardly friendly...
Full cycle is hardly a good measure when you’re breathing the fumes in traffic.
Land clearing, chemicals, harvesting etc do not make Rapeseed a clean fuel.

In much the same way an electric car is
Not the incorrectly labelled “zero emissions vehicle”... it’s just moved somewhere else to be somebody else’s problem or health issue!

[RANDLOVER]

I've just edited my previous post as I can't find any studies on Bio being NOx neutral, make no mistake I'm not advocating irresponsible practices like clearing the Amazon for canola. Even bio fuel crops grown irresponsibly, by over applying nitrogen fertilisers can lead to an increase in NOx, as the unused Nitrogen breaks down and combines with the atmosphere to produce NOx.

[ramblingboy42]

I used bio and other oils in my D2 , including adding 2-stroke oil to fuel mix , while I owned it and never had a problem.
Unfortunately EVERY energy source has some sort of footprint which is usually undesirable.
My current vehicle is common rail so I'm too scared to go the bio path with it.
Having a quite modern vehicle can get boring as all you do is wash it every 6mths or so.

[Bigbjorn]

I used bio and other oils in my D2 , including adding 2-stroke oil to fuel mix , while I owned it and never had a problem.
Unfortunately EVERY energy source has some sort of footprint which is usually undesirable.
My current vehicle is common rail so I'm too scared to go the bio path with it.
Having a quite modern vehicle can get boring as all you do is wash it every 6mths or so.

In the case of my "quite modern vehicle" I loaded it onto a tilt tray regularly to go to the dealership with electronic/electrical failures. This has convinced me to keep my non-electronic County-Isuzu as long as I can keep it running.

[ramblingboy42]

Well I was rather fortunate with my D2, it never let me down in 300,000 odd km in the bush.

It did it all when I was in home vicinity, and it did it all.

Yes I agree, the concept of owning a totally reliable, basically breakdown free vehicle means owning something like you have.

My Ranger is proving to be very reliable, but it's engine running gear is same as late Defenders so I'm hoping its just poor LR engineering causing so many problems as reported in these threads.

Fingers crossed.

[ramblingboy42]

Just wondering if anyone is running any form of bio diesel in their 2.2ltr defenders?

[dromader driver]

Yep 300 tdi runs well on biodiesel together with kerosene and Jet A1. Kero and jet had some added 2 stroke oil. Friends run straight veg oil with a heating system but that is in a nissan. Fuel consumption was slightly higher on bio

Had a 720 nissan that loved alternate fuels. Used to buy near Erskinville at the Biodiesel station. [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

[ramblingboy42]

did you sleeve it to 2.2ltr?