New tyres = stuffed wheel winch

[af3556]

Took my D3 into Bob Jane to get four new tyres. However I was driving on the spare, having got a flat a few days earlier, so they had to put the spare back under the car.

As the job's near finished, they tell me they can't get the wheel winch up - it's basically stuffed and isn't holding the spare in place (slips).

I did notice they used a rattle gun on the winch - indeed I stuck my head into the workshop when I saw that and asked "I don't think you're supposed to use an impact wrench on the winch" and got a "nah, it's fine" in reply.

Is there official advice or similar re. not using an impact wrench? If so, I have a pretty clear cut case for Bob Jane to fix/replace the winch.

(rant: the wheel winch would have to be about the most hopeless engineering effort I've ever seen in any manufactured thing. LR should be ashamed.)

Ta,
Ben

[Tombie]

Follow the directions and the wheel winch is fine..

Either Bob Jane has broken it - let's face it, a rattle gun is not appropriate on said device.

Or did you wind it up, not under load when you changed tyres?

[scarry]

(rant: the wheel winch would have to be about the most hopeless engineering effort I've ever seen in any manufactured thing. LR should be ashamed.)

Ta,
Ben

And the jack is the second most hopeless thing they ever made:mad:

Luckily i haven't had to use mine yet.:)

As for Bob Jane,good luck.

[AnD3rew]

The winch is crap and the sooner you throw it out and put a RWC the better. Having said that you are definitely not supposed to use a rattle gun on it so unless you wrecked it previously by winding it up without a load Bob Jane wrecked it for you.

[101RRS]

In my view the winch MUST be pulled up by hand - the cable often goes over itself and the winch comes hard to turn - you then need to back off until it is free and then continue. You can raise the winch without load using this method as well.

Using a rattle gun you would not know the winch was loading up. Only the handle must be used. You might be lucky if you wind/pull the cable out under load and manually rewind under load but from what you have said it sounds like it is stuffed.

I would be hitting Bob Jane for the cost of a new winch - I suspect they will say no so off to the office of fair trading/consumer affairs with a copy of the relevant section of the handbook.

Garry

[jimc]

I don't think I will be needing my spare winch any more. P.M me if you want

[sniegy]

DO NOT USE A RATTLE GUN TO DO UP SPARE WHEEL WINCH !!

I would be at heading back to Bob Jane saying who is paying for the "New" wheel winch.
That is pretty atrocious!:mad::mad::mad:

[justinc]

I have opened them up and repaired them in an emergency before, BUT only if they have been wound up by hand and not too badly twisted, and not forced using a rattle gun, you may find it is now irrepairable. I would certainly ask them to foot the bill:(:(:(

JC

[af3556]

I was very careful in replacing the flat (kept tension in the cable at all times, hand wound, etc) - and they had no trouble removing it again, just when replacing the spare at the end of the job.

AnD3rew: what's this RWC unit?

[justinc]

I was very careful in replacing the flat (kept tension in the cable at all times, hand wound, etc) - and they had no trouble removing it again, just when replacing the spare at the end of the job.

AnD3rew: what's this RWC unit?

RWC = rear wheel carrier.


JC

[miller.rhys]

The winch was broken on my D3 when I bought it second hand didn't notice until after exchange. If there is no wheel in place then its an easy repair simply grind off the rivets then remove the compression ring I had to cut mine off. Then tack weld the flat clutch plate back on to the main shaft and reassemble. The retaining bolts should hold it all back together and the clutch should still work. It should only take about half an hour

[Blknight.aus]

RTFM...

how does the instruction manual tell you to operate it?

do they have a service document that authorises the use of a rattle gun?

[af3556]

Good point re. checking the manual - just fished it out, and lo and behold (p. 231): "Fit the wheel nut brace ... to lower the spare wheel. The mechanism has been designed for use with the wheel nut brace. Do not use power tools". And again on p. 240 re. raising the wheel.

(though the manual also proceeds to say to lower the wheel until the cable's slack... You know, if I had more time I'd be talking to LR and Consumer Affairs - this flawed design and is NOT fit for purpose.)

Will discuss with the manager tomorrow, and Fair Trading thereafter if necessary.

[101RRS]

(though the manual also proceeds to say to lower the wheel until the cable's slack... You know, if I had more time I'd be talking to LR and Consumer Affairs - this flawed design and is NOT fit for purpose.)


While I agree it is not the greatest design, to say it is not fit for purpose is a bit much. If used in accordance with the instructions it works fine.

Garry

[CaverD3]

Bob Jane broke your winch, they need to replace it.

[lpj]

I agree. They stuffed it, they need to fix it.

[af3556]

Just off the phone with the manager; he seemed very reasonable - "if we broke it, of course we'll fix it". If this turns out to be fair dinkum then they've gained themselves a customer for life (I feel confident that the previous tyre place I'd used wouldn't have been so forthright!).

Re. fit for purpose: I expect we'd all agree it's engineered poorly especially in comparison with (most of) the rest of the car. In any event, I'm going to make up some kind of "no power tools / RTFM or it'll cost you $$" label to stick on/around the winch winder.

[MR LR]

Your first problem is you went to Bob Janes, they are useless and the people that work there are brainless monkeys, second is they used a rattle gun to do that and I would assume the wheel nuts up, bad practice.

A rattle gun should only be used for removing bolts/nuts, and the not on the spare wheel winch at all, as someone quoted from the handbook, wheel nuts should be spun on with a speed brace and then tightened with a torque wrench to manufacturer specs, to avoid any damage to from cross-threads, or over tightening.

Give Blairs Tyres a try next time, they're Landy people and have an outlet in Corrimal, amazing customer service and it's all family run, not franchises.

Cheers
Will

[JamesH]

For the record, Ive been to two Bob Jane shops and been very happy with both. I guess there are good franchisees and bad ones. Admittedly I was in the Defender and it's not a complicated car/rim set to work on. But yeah I was totally happy.

Expanding on that last point I have to say there has been nothing Ive ever read on this forum or the UK one that has told me a flat is anything other than a much bigger PITA than it should be on these vehicles. Here is a summary of what I've learnt:

1: The jack is crap and owners have gone to some lengths & expense to find a relacement bottle jack that fits in the space provided.

2. Get the placement wrong and the results can be so catastrophic with suspension compressors etc that owners of felt the need to get out the paint tin to mark the jacking points.

3. Get the spare out using the winch very carefully or you will be in a world of pain.

4. Either go through the preposterous process of jacking up the stuffed wheel back into the well (again with great care or world of pain) or, if you want to do the normal thing like chuck it in the back and head off to a repair shop, you need to abduct a Grade 1 kid and get it to crawl underneath and hang on to the chain because if you wind it up without any load you will be in a world of pain.

Yes, I apreciate that if I read the manual and carefully follow the information given therein I will be fine, in the long run after a lot of stuffing around, but :censored:.

I hate to be a wuss but I'm inclined to just call LR assist if i get a flat in the metro area. It's not worth the hassle.

[lpj]

For the record, Ive been to two Bob Jane shops and been very happy with both. I guess there are good franchisees and bad ones. Admittedly I was in the Defender and it's not a complicated car/rim set to work on. But yeah I was totally happy. Expanding on that last point I have to say there has been nothing Ive ever read on this forum or the UK one that has told me a flat is anything other than a much bigger PITA than it should be on these vehicles. Here is a summary of what I've learnt: 1: The jack is crap and owners have gone to some lengths & expense to find a relacement bottle jack that fits in the space provided. 2. Get the placement wrong and the results can be so catastrophic with suspension compressors etc that owners of felt the need to get out the paint tin to mark the jacking points. 3. Get the spare out using the winch very carefully or you will be in a world of pain. 4. Either go through the preposterous process of jacking up the stuffed wheel back into the well (again with great care or world of pain) or, if you want to do the normal thing like chuck it in the back and head off to a repair shop, you need to abduct a Grade 1 kid and get it to crawl underneath and hang on to the chain because if you wind it up without any load you will be in a world of pain. Yes, I apreciate that if I read the manual and carefully follow the information given therein I will be fine, in the long run after a lot of stuffing around, but :censored:. I hate to be a wuss but I'm inclined to just call LR assist if i get a flat in the metro area. It's not worth the hassle.

I remember getting flat in an 80 series LC that we had hired. Extracting the spare took quite some time and ultimately we had to get the manual out. If you don't know what your doing, you can easily break or otherwise butcher parts I of cars.
I have actually had to physically demonstrate the correct procedure for closing the glove compartment of most of my previous cars to members of my family. Why? Because someone broke one once by shoving too much crap in it and then trying to force it to close.
The point being, a butcher who is rough can bust anything, irrespective of the design.

[Celtoid]

For the record, Ive been to two Bob Jane shops and been very happy with both. I guess there are good franchisees and bad ones. Admittedly I was in the Defender and it's not a complicated car/rim set to work on. But yeah I was totally happy.

Expanding on that last point I have to say there has been nothing Ive ever read on this forum or the UK one that has told me a flat is anything other than a much bigger PITA than it should be on these vehicles. Here is a summary of what I've learnt:

1: The jack is crap and owners have gone to some lengths & expense to find a relacement bottle jack that fits in the space provided.

2. Get the placement wrong and the results can be so catastrophic with suspension compressors etc that owners of felt the need to get out the paint tin to mark the jacking points.

3. Get the spare out using the winch very carefully or you will be in a world of pain.

4. Either go through the preposterous process of jacking up the stuffed wheel back into the well (again with great care or world of pain) or, if you want to do the normal thing like chuck it in the back and head off to a repair shop, you need to abduct a Grade 1 kid and get it to crawl underneath and hang on to the chain because if you wind it up without any load you will be in a world of pain.

Yes, I apreciate that if I read the manual and carefully follow the information given therein I will be fine, in the long run after a lot of stuffing around, but :censored:.

I hate to be a wuss but I'm inclined to just call LR assist if i get a flat in the metro area. It's not worth the hassle.




Hey mate (all),

I'm on D4 Number 2 (almost 5 years) and in response to the comments on your post .... not your comments I understand ... I'd say Lazy, Dumb-Ass Buggers!

1. The jack is not a great bit of kit, granted .... but I've used it on multiple occasions over 4.5 years on my original D4 without any issue at all....and I'm talking complete wheel changes, not just a flat. It is hard work compared to something with hydraulic assistance .... funny that ... but very similar in design to many cars I've owned. However, it is only designed for the occasional flat.....just like the compressor is not designed to use your D4 as a Pimp-Mobile :-)

2. Only a retard could get the placement wrong .... there is a friggin big hole in the chassis that co-incidentally matches the top of the jack in co-incidentally the four correct jacking positions, which co-incidentally match what it says in the handbook and the Quick-Use card that comes with the car. I don't mind the idea of painting the position ... why not? ... speeds up the jacking process by ... well no time at all, if you've read the manual and taken the time to have a look. Placing a trolley jack or bottle jack under a D4 is probably a slower and more dangerous proposition .... until ... you've guessed it ... you've taken the time to figure out the best and safest way to do this without damaging compressors and reservoirs, yourself, etc.

3. & 4. The winch is easy to use .... follow the instructions ... no issue. I have used it heaps of times. The manual says to keep a load on it ... do that! You can achieve that load with a bit of pressure from your hand. I've driven for miles with no wheel attached and the winch not completely retracted (just up out of the way) with no issue. Having the wheel underneath is a crap idea as is having to lift the back seats (after unloading everything) to get to the winch mechanism. But ... LR has looked at the market and have made those decisions based on a lot of variables. 9.5 times out of ten I'd prefer not to have a RWC or the wheel mounted on the rear door (not that you can on a D4).

You're not a wuss at all mate ... if I've got a flat, unless I'm camping or touring (expected situation I guess), I'll call Road-Side Assist....you cannot change a 4WD tyre without getting dirty.....and I'm generally not dressed to get dirty.

I've been very happy with Bob Jane on most occasions too, in fact only one complaint when they did a crap job of balancing my wheels.....it just comes down to individuals though.

Rattle Guns ... truck wheels only I think (maybe?) and certainly not the winch....Bloody idiots. I went to a local place recently and they used a cordless drill and then a torque wrench on my wheels and a socket and ratchet on the winch (as effective as the LR wheel brace) ... most impressed.

Cheers,

Kev.

[JamesH]

Thanks Kev, that was reassuring. I was getting a bit freaked out.

[Blknight.aus]

My local tyre place loves me, Im almost honorary staff there.

I usually come in with a vehicle with the covers off the rims, chalk or chinograph marks on the tyres if its in for replace 2 balance and rotate and will be standing at the back of the vehicle with a hand full of tools in my hands and pockets.

by the time they have it hoisted I have the valve stems out,
as soon as the first wheel is off and on the tyre changer Im in doing the basic brakes and steering checks along with any other mark onery I can do as I put a slick of antisieze on the threads of the studs..

By that time the wheel to be rotated into that position is off and coming my way from the balancer, I'll have the nuts in hand their guy lifts it on I wind them on and then torque them up move to where that wheel came from. By now the first tyre off is fitted, balanced and ready to go on.

you get the idea, I get a full inspection done, studs lubed, wheel nuts torqued correctly, I know the condition of everything in the wheel arch.

I've had a small 4x4 done in 15 minutes with 5 new bits of rubber, brake pads replaced on the rears.

and I get a good discount while Im there.

and wheres this?

Jax Quick fit in Ipswich.

theres a bob janes down the road.... I get mixed reports about that, the quality of the work depends on which crew is working and the quality of the customer relations depends on the boss on the day.

I prefer the smaller operators. Almost always happy to do everything to make it all work for you.

[101RRS]

2. Only a retard could get the placement wrong .... there is a friggin big hole in the chassis that co-incidentally matches the top of the jack in co-incidentally the four correct jacking positions,

Kev - well I guess I am a retard :o. I used my jack a few times in benign situations and had no issues - then I had a flat at an inconvenient time and to minimise inconvenience to others I was with, I rushed the wheel change. Placed the jack under the car - saw the friggin big hole that the knob on the jack fits in and started jacking away - heard the tinkle of cracking metal and then realised I had put the jack in the hole in the bottom of the air compressor cover.

Even though I had done jackings before, the hole in the air compressor cover from the side rather from under looked like the right spot - if I had not been rushed, calmer and less stressed the jack would have gone into the right spot but it didn't - if that makes me a retard then gibber, gibber, gibber.

The other worry was the jack itself - I was backed into the kerb and even the gentle slope designed into the road to drain water off the road was enough to make the car very unstable at full height.

The bottom line is that extreme care is required in using both the wheel winch and jack if damage to car or limb is to be prevented.

Garry

[Celtoid]

Kev - well I guess I am a retard :o. I used my jack a few times in benign situations and had no issues - then I had a flat at an inconvenient time and to minimise inconvenience to others I was with, I rushed the wheel change. Placed the jack under the car - saw the friggin big hole that the knob on the jack fits in and started jacking away - heard the tinkle of cracking metal and then realised I had put the jack in the hole in the bottom of the air compressor cover.

Even though I had done jackings before, the hole in the air compressor cover from the side rather from under looked like the right spot - if I had not been rushed, calmer and less stressed the jack would have gone into the right spot but it didn't - if that makes me a retard then gibber, gibber, gibber.

The other worry was the jack itself - I was backed into the kerb and even the gentle slope designed into the road to drain water off the road was enough to make the car very unstable at full height.

The bottom line is that extreme care is required in using both the wheel winch and jack if damage to car or limb is to be prevented.

Garry








Hi Garry,

I'm glad you said that, not me ... LOL!!!


In ****ty situations anything can happen, weather, rushing a task, etc. I've seen people jack right up through their panels in sedans. It's like when people get bogged and do all sorts of crazy stuff that damages their car or equipment, in a mad rush when there is no impending danger. It's human nature.


Would a bottle jack be any better in the situation you described? I even get the sweats when I see how much the trolley jack I now use moves around both on the ground and on the chassis .... on my perfectly level garage floor. There is an inherent problem trying to jack something so high using a single point that pivots with the vehicle, without that pivot being anchored in some way, when the whole independent suspension undercarriage shimmies and shakes as you gain height.


I know of people that have modified an interface or adapter to plug into the hole on the chassis but I'm not sure that would be any better unless it was quite long. Are other manufacturers doing a better job, have a better design?


Concur fully with your comments about extreme care being needed.


Cheers,


Kev.

[101RRS]

Again if you follow the book jacking is safe - wheels chocked, level ground, hard surface etc etc etc. The reality, particularly when heading offroad, the level ground and hard surface is rare to find.

The main issue with the jack is that there have been quite a few reported failures of the jack itself - whether caused by the weight, movement of the vehicle or poor ground I do not know but they have failed.

At home I do not use the standard jack as I have no where level - after well chocking the car I use a hydraulic floor jack or my 101 hydraulic jack but both cannot get the lift needed if used under the chassis as the jacking points with timber pads under - then there are issues getting them under the car.

So I use normally use my 101 jack under the suspension arms so you jack the wheel rather than the body. I always have jack stands at the chassis jack points as a safety measure. I had an 12v Aldi Scissors Jack that used to lift the 2500kg RRS with no issues but subsequently failed lifting my 600kg Haflinger on flat concrete with me under it. Was only lifting one corner so lifting only 150kg and it failed on the scissor at the bottom - luckily I had a jack stand under for safety.

In view of my recent experiences in future I will take a high lift hydraulic jack with me in the RRs for trips away.

[af3556]

Bob Jane came through no worries at all - Mark, the manager, arranged for a replacement winch and installation by the Thursday after the tyre install on the Monday. Due to my scheduling I only got in last Friday, and it's now rectified. (The new winch has a ring connection intended to be wound by the jack winder hook, rather than a wheel-nut sized hex head. You'd have to be particularly creative to get a rattle gun on there now.)

So kudos to Bob Jane in Wollongong for recognising an error, not giving any argy-bargy and promptly arranging to fix it. I'm very impressed with the uncommonly good customer service.

Ben

[CaverD3]

A decent Bob Jane dealer. :o

I judge companies not so much on the basis if nothing goes wrong but on what they do when it does. :BigThumb:

[ytt105]

Totally agree with you.

[phl]

Perhaps LR went to the ring as a way to stop people from using rattle guns or electric drivers on the winch winder.

[Panya]

4. Either go through the preposterous process of jacking up the stuffed wheel back into the well (again with great care or world of pain) or, if you want to do the normal thing like chuck it in the back and head off to a repair shop, you need to abduct a Grade 1 kid and get it to crawl underneath and hang on to the chain because if you wind it up without any load you will be in a world of pain.


For what its worth I let the spare down on normal height, get it out, put the punctured tyre back on the cable, put air in the bags for extended mode which lifts the tyre of the ground and puts it under tension and wind it up. So far so good...