is someon using dual rear shocks in his 110?

[Steve223]

Hi,

Just wondering is someone using double rear shocks in his defender.
with a TF TF513 - Rear twin shock mount kit

grp=303TF513 - Rear twin shock mount kit (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/product_detail.php?prod=TF513&grp=303)

Would love to hear some feedback of running Superior Suspension Twin shocks.

Cheers

Steve

[85 county]

i do not, but have been on trips where peaple have, thay seem great and seem to work well on the long corgated tracks.

easy to fit with the exception of one hole you have to drill wich is a pain as the flange on the diff is in the way

[weeds]

Hi,

Just wondering is someone using double rear shocks in his defender.
with a TF TF513 - Rear twin shock mount kit

grp=303TF513 - Rear twin shock mount kit (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/product_detail.php?prod=TF513&grp=303)

Would love to hear some feedback of running Superior Suspension Twin shocks.

Cheers

Steve

Ranga might be running twin shocks

[86mud]

I have them on my 130 running revalved Bilsteins.

Simple to fit. Works really well on my 130.

Look through this thread:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/181506-dual-shock-setup-4.html

[86mud]

There are 3 x 12mm holes to drill on each side of the lower shock mount.

There is also issues with the type of offset you have on your wheels. Standard 110 steel wheels have a more positive offset (toward the diff) compared to the standard 130 steel wheels (Wolf type). The Terrafirma twin lower shock bracket get close the tyre (about 25 - 30 mm gap) when you have standard 110 steel wheels fitted.

[Steve223]

There are 3 x 12mm holes to drill on each side of the lower shock mount.

There is also issues with the type of offset you have on your wheels. Standard 110 steel wheels have a more positive offset (toward the diff) compared to the standard 130 steel wheels (Wolf type). The Terrafirma twin lower shock bracket get close the tyre (about 25 - 30 mm gap) when you have standard 110 steel wheels fitted.

I have dynamic steels with a 0 offset so that should work

[n plus one]

Hi,

Just wondering is someone using double rear shocks in his defender.
with a TF TF513 - Rear twin shock mount kit

grp=303TF513 - Rear twin shock mount kit (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/product_detail.php?prod=TF513&grp=303)

Would love to hear some feedback of running Superior Suspension Twin shocks.

Cheers

Steve

I've got them in my 110, I'm using twin Billies and they're the dog's.

[Judo]

Can I ask what is the purpose/benefit of having 2?

[86mud]

Steve, I run 16 x 8 Dynamics with zero offset as well.

The benefits are a smoother ride over rough road....I run a 19mm coil and poly air bag and the single (even re-valved) Bilstein would not control the initial rebound from the coil.

Having twin shocks halves the resistant forces that each shock is under during compression (and extension) resulting a smoother ride.

Well worth it.

[Geedublya]

Can I ask what is the purpose/benefit of having 2?

My guess is that each shock can run softer valving and therefore produce less heat while giving the same overall damping as a single.

[85 county]

Can I ask what is the purpose/benefit of having 2?

Heat mainly

The constant small movements in a shock say like when driving over corrugations, heat the shock up. Then shock fade sets in. I have even seen a Prado on fire due to a shock over heating.

With two the load is shared.

Or look at motorbikes, dirt bikes, they went from two vertical shocks. to twin shocks at about 45 deg, which halved the travel on each shock thus halving the heat. to rear link setups with very short shocks, do at 1 inch movement of the wheel = 1mm of travel in the shock. less movement less heat

[rick130]

Heat mainly

The constant small movements in a shock say like when driving over corrugations, heat the shock up. Then shock fade sets in. I have even seen a Prado on fire due to a shock over heating.

With two the load is shared.

Or look at motorbikes, dirt bikes, they went from two vertical shocks. to twin shocks at about 45 deg, which halved the travel on each shock thus halving the heat. to rear link setups with very short shocks, do at 1 inch movement of the wheel = 1mm of travel in the shock. less movement less heat


Actually the less shock shaft movement the greater the potential heat generated as the forces have to increase to damp the spring and chassis.

So, as you lay a damper down relative to vertical axle movement you need heavier valving to damp the same forces as the piston and shaft isn't moving as much and so will generate more heat. (and the less sensitive it becomes to wheel movement)
You do reduce friction (and therefore heat from friction) when you decrease shaft travel, but you increase the internal pressures needed to control the forces and so increase heat.

Dirt bikes went to laydown dampers to get increased wheel travel with little weight gain and compact mounting, race cars started to do the same thing with inboard suspensions and bellcranks but lost damper sensitivity, these days motion ratios are back well over 1:1 to gain sensitivity with minimal wheel movement.

All a damper does is convert kinetic energy to heat, generally through forcing hydraulic fluid through shim valves and pistons.
Increase the piston size and you reduce the internal forces of the damper, or use a multi damper setup, but the current 2.5, 3 and 4" bore off road race shocks are aimed at reducing internal forces without needing multiple shock setups at the expense of a little increased friction.

[85 county]

Actually the less shock shaft movement the greater the potential heat generated as the forces have to increase to damp the spring and chassis. .

yes as i said, like driving over corrugations. a lot of short movements. so a lot of heat


So, as you lay a damper down relative to vertical axle movement you increase the load on the damper. (and the less sensitive it becomes to wheel movement) .

You also increase the load on the spring, and port the damper accordingly. however travel is reduced.


You do reduce friction when you decrease shaft travel, but you increase the internal pressures needed to control the forces and so increase heat.
Increase the piston size and you reduce the internal forces of the damper. .

and is this not what adding a second shock not doing? But dubbing the size of the piston??


All a damper does is convert kinetic energy to heat, generally through forcing hydraulic fluid through shim valves and pistons.

[rick130]

yes as i said, like driving over corrugations. a lot of short movements. so a lot of heat


You also increase the load on the spring, and port the damper accordingly. however travel is reduced.



and is this not what adding a second shock not doing? But dubbing the size of the piston??



If you have x amount of vertical wheel and spring movement and you have a shockie laying over at 45*, the shock piston is only moving half the distance of the spring, and so it needs to be valved twice as stiff as another damper mounted vertically.

The shockie laying over at 45* is also only half as sensitive as the vertically mounted one.

The reason for laying over a shock is packaging, you can get away with a shorter damper for a given amount of wheel travel but there aren't really any other positives.

I was agreeing that using two shockies per wheel halves the forces needed, but was also pointing out that increasing the piston size does the same (and is the same) thing.

[Steve223]

spoke to Bendan from Ultimate Suspension and he said no benefit for a 110 unless carry's extremely heavy loads he said his single shock set up would be more then adequate so will settle with that for time being.

[85 county]

spoke to Bendan from Ultimate Suspension and he said no benefit for a 110 unless carry's extremely heavy loads he said his single shock set up would be more then adequate so will settle with that for time being.

Well that’s how it is with the vast majority of 110, but it also depends on the sort of trips you do, rock climbing and screaming over a few sand dunes, probably not. But punting around for hours on rutted and corrugated tracks then yes they do

[n plus one]

Yep, magic damping control over corrugations with no fade and good shock temps even with heavy loads. Ie good for desert travel, particularly as a normal touring load in Oz is often a heavy load compared to elsewhere (due to fuel and water needs).

My mate is very impressed with his Ultimate set up (on his Hilux) and I've heard lots of good things, but I'd still be inclined towards dual shocks or the Konis if your focus is heavy desert work.

[yt110]

easy to fit with the exception of one hole you have to drill wich is a pain as the flange on the diff is in the way


There are 3 x 12mm holes to drill on each side of the lower shock mount.

The one hole 85 county is talking about is when he helped fit the twin shock kit to my county. Defenders have a hole drilled on the wheel side of the original lower shock mount that matches the new bracket, my county did not.

Yes I am happy with the twin shock setup,I have terrafirma prosport +50 shockers and airbag kit from the airbag man.

Jim.

[Drover]

What do we all think of running two different shocks on a duel shock set up ?

I have recently fitted a set of Raids, but still getting "seemly" uncontrolled bounce over the "whoop-t-doo's".

The TF Expeditions that were replaced are still fine, sitting on the shelf.

Really want to bring this bounce under control before the Simpson is 10 weeks, but a $1000 a pair for the Raids it's a bit exy to run twin Raids, but it may be the only way.

[rick130]

What do we all think of running two different shocks on a duel shock set up ?

I have recently fitted a set of Raids, but still getting "seemly" uncontrolled bounce over the "whoop-t-doo's".

The TF Expeditions that were replaced are still fine, sitting on the shelf.

Really want to bring this bounce under control before the Simpson is 10 weeks, but a $1000 a pair for the Raids it's a bit exy to run twin Raids, but it may be the only way.


Adjust the Raids, you can double the rebound forces by fully adjusting them, or you can have them somewhere in between.

I find it hard to believe that won't control it, but if it isn't enough send them to either Proven Products or Toperformance to get them revalved, it's pretty cheap and easy.

[chook73]

What do we all think of running two different shocks on a duel shock set up ?

I have recently fitted a set of Raids, but still getting "seemly" uncontrolled bounce over the "whoop-t-doo's".

The TF Expeditions that were replaced are still fine, sitting on the shelf.

Really want to bring this bounce under control before the Simpson is 10 weeks, but a $1000 a pair for the Raids it's a bit exy to run twin Raids, but it may be the only way.

I would suggest they just need setting up properly, it might be worth booking it in with a suspension expert such as ultimate to see if they can adjust the valving to take out the rebound.

[uninformed]

Adjust the Raids, you can double the rebound forces by fully adjusting them, or you can have them somewhere in between.

I find it hard to believe that won't control it, but if it isn't enough send them to either Proven Products or Toperformance to get them revalved, it's pretty cheap and easy.

What about spring Rates?

Surely shock valving has to work with the spring rate in the vehicle. Then that would also lead to making sure the spring rate is good for the given set up...

[rick130]

What about spring Rates?

Surely shock valving has to work with the spring rate in the vehicle. Then that would also lead to making sure the spring rate is good for the given set up...

Not quite sure what you are getting at ?

You adjust the rebound to suit how the chassis is reacting.

If he's happy with the load carrying and ride, yet the back end is rebounding too strongly after a big bump, increase the rebound on the Raids.

It's pretty simple.

No, it doesn't mean the spring rate is optimal, but that changes on application.

[rick130]

I would suggest they just need setting up properly, it might be worth booking it in with a suspension expert such as ultimate to see if they can adjust the valving to take out the rebound.

They are externally adjustable, no need to take to a shock place unless he's at the maximum adjustment already.

[n plus one]

What do we all think of running two different shocks on a duel shock set up ?

I have recently fitted a set of Raids, but still getting "seemly" uncontrolled bounce over the "whoop-t-doo's".

The TF Expeditions that were replaced are still fine, sitting on the shelf.

Really want to bring this bounce under control before the Simpson is 10 weeks, but a $1000 a pair for the Raids it's a bit exy to run twin Raids, but it may be the only way.

Seriously, if you're doing the Frenchline you have no idea just how badly you want to address this issue - it's an endless series of wheel scalloped holes.

I wouldn't hesitate to run two different types of shocks on a dual setup - any force differential would be easily within the margins of the overall design brief.

[86mud]

The koni raids outer case diameter is too large for the dual shock mounts. You will not fit two koni raid together on one side. There is about a. 10 mm gap between the two bilsteins.

[Steve223]

can someone sent me some pics how the front dual shock set up looks?

I saw the back TF brackets but wondering how the front would look like.

[Drover]

They are externally adjustable, no need to take to a shock place unless he's at the maximum adjustment already.
Just pulled them out to double check the adjustment and yes they were both on full hard.

I also have Poly-Air bags in the rear, is it possible that these air bags are contributing to the bounce factor.

If not, I guess I will just have to follow up with ultimate suspension on Monday for further advice on re-valveing.

I really thought the Raids would have muscle to sort the bounce out.

[n plus one]

Just pulled them out to double check the adjustment and yes they were both on full hard.

I also have Poly-Air bags in the rear, is it possible that these air bags are contributing to the bounce factor.

If not, I guess I will just have to follow up with ultimate suspension on Monday for further advice on re-valveing.

I really thought the Raids would have muscle to sort the bounce out.

There's a ~22mm gap between 46mm Billies on the Terra Firna twin rear mount - just had a look.

[Drover]

There's a ~22mm gap between 46mm Billies on the Terra Firna twin rear mount - just had a look.

The Raids are 70mm in the body and 85mm for the dust covers :( - so won't even go close.....

But on a positive note, a search of the forum found a KONI PDF, posted by Rick130 in July 2013. It show that the compression and rebound rates/pressures can in same cases be 500% greater from one Raid to the next.

It seems that KONI determine the "appropriate" specs for the particular vehicle, but the shocks are capable of much much more.

So, re-valveing appears should be solution.

[Ranga]

I set off on my half lap with single Konis (not Raids) and inner spring airbags, with a 650kg camper canopy and a small caravan. By the time I had to do other repairs in Wodonga, I realised the bounce in the back was too much for my liking. On recommendation from the mechanic, I fitted the TF dual mounts. Easy enough job.

It wasn't until I was putting it all back together that the mechanic pointed out that my shocks were adjustable, and were set to the softest setting! I set them to the hardest setting. Given my thinking that dual mounts were now probably overkill for my mostly black-top trip, I wasn't interested in buying another set of Konis, but ended up adding a set of second hand no-names the mechanic gifted me. In hindsight, these really weren't necessary with the Konis properly adjusted, and I've since removed the no-names and have gone back to single shocks.

I've actually thought about removing the dual mounts, but I might as well leave them on in the off-chance I decide to add extra shocks for an expedition. The bottom mount does present a minor risk of being caught on something off-road, but not enough to worry me.

I guess the only other possible advantage I've considered with dual shocks is redundancy. In the event one fails, you have another already in place. On the other hand, it might make diagnosing a failed shock difficult. :confused:

I'm still yet to be convinced dual shocks are required items, particularly if running quality shocks in good condition.

Hope this helps.

[PAT303]

What do we all think of running two different shocks on a duel shock set up ?

I have recently fitted a set of Raids, but still getting "seemly" uncontrolled bounce over the "whoop-t-doo's".

The TF Expeditions that were replaced are still fine, sitting on the shelf.

Really want to bring this bounce under control before the Simpson is 10 weeks, but a $1000 a pair for the Raids it's a bit exy to run twin Raids, but it may be the only way.

Do yourself a favour and forget the idea of a comfortable trip via the French Line,your not getting paid to do it,your going for a holiday and trust me you won't last the first day,I'd had enough before lunch.I would seriously look at carrying bugger all wieght and remove the bags to soften the ride,original springs are hard enough,if your raids aren't doing the job look elsewhere. Pat

[n plus one]

Do yourself a favour and forget the idea of a comfortable trip via the French Line,your not getting paid to do it,your going for a holiday and trust me you won't last the first day,I'd had enough before lunch.I would seriously look at carrying bugger all wieght and remove the bags to soften the ride,original springs are hard enough,if your raids aren't doing the job look elsewhere. Pat

Yeah, it's a bit of a mess isn't it! The twin shocks helped but I'd run the Rig or other alternate lines next time I go.

[weeds]

Do yourself a favour and forget the idea of a comfortable trip via the French Line,your not getting paid to do it,your going for a holiday and trust me you won't last the first day,I'd had enough before lunch.I would seriously look at carrying bugger all wieght and remove the bags to soften the ride,original springs are hard enough,if your raids aren't doing the job look elsewhere. Pat

Is the French that bad??

I have suggested in many threads on forums to consider the knolls track/rig rd route as I found it a great drive.

I was loaded to the hilt running billies and poly airs, all was good. I ended up raising the air pressure in the bags.

[n plus one]

Is the French that bad??

I have suggested in many threads on forums to consider the knolls track/rig rd route as I found it a great drive.

I was loaded to the hilt running billies and poly airs, all was good. I ended up raising the air pressure in the bags.

It's a mess - most dunes are continuously scalloped out to half wheel depth and offset in each wheel track. From memory we managed a 14kmh average while moving - once the rig etc rejoins it's a walk in the park by comparison. Not the end of the world by any means, but it's more like unformed track speeds.

[Drover]

I did the French line in 2010 with stock suspension and was okay but I do remember the continued bouncing at the rear. Not sure what tracks we are doing this time yet.

Hopefully the re-valves Raids will do the job.

[voltron]

I did the French line in 2010 with stock suspension and was okay but I do remember the continued bouncing at the rear. Not sure what tracks we are doing this time yet.

Hopefully the re-valves Raids will do the job.

ARe you with a club when you do those kinds of trip Drover?

Be great to go along with a group and do a trip like this.

[Drover]

No club, just small groups of family and friends.

Leaving July 19 for 6 weeks, PM me if your interested.

[rick130]

Doing it end if August/September but going via the rig road and WAA line.

BTW,damping isn't settled yet, haven't finalised the setup. :D

[uninformed]

Doing it end if August/September but going via the rig road and WAA line.

BTW,damping isn't settled yet, haven't finalised the setup. :D

4x Ranchos each corner....


your welcom :D

[Steve223]

I



I guess the only other possible advantage I've considered with dual shocks is redundancy. In the event one fails, you have another already in place. On the other hand, it might make diagnosing a failed shock difficult. :confused:



I'm still yet to be convinced dual shocks are required items, particularly if running quality shocks in good condition.



Hope this helps.


as I understand it if you have dual shocks they would be differently valves so would not really be a proper replacement in place

[rick130]

4x Ranchos each corner....


your welcom :D

Good call !




:bat::p

[n plus one]

as I understand it if you have dual shocks they would be differently valves so would not really be a proper replacement in place

Still likely to be substantially better than nothing though?

[Steve223]

Still likely to be substantially better than nothing though?


my nothing would be a spare front and rear shock for long trips though

[n plus one]

my nothing would be a spare front and rear shock for long trips though

Fair call.

[Drover]

Well I had a good chat today with the Guy's from KONI.

By the end of the chat, the conclusion is as follows...

Apparently Raid's should never be set to the maximum hard setting. The full hard setting is to be used as the shocks deteriorate to maintain their ability to damp. The best advice is to return them to the softest setting.

With the Raid's set too high they impair the ability of the spring to return to its full height in a timely manner. The effect that I am experiencing is that simpley by the time I arrive at the next "whoop-d-doo" the spring has yet to reach full extension, causing a heavy entry into the hole and a rigid exit.

By returning the Raids to the full soft setting it will/should eliminate this effect.

So I have returned them to full soft but yet to test drive, but the theory sounds solid.

Thoughts and opinions welcome.

[rick130]

Well I had a good chat today with the Guy's from KONI.

By the end of the chat, the conclusion is as follows...

Apparently Raid's should never be set to the maximum hard setting. The full hard setting is to be used as the shocks deteriorate to maintain their ability to damp. The best advice is to return them to the softest setting.

With the Raid's set too high they impair the ability of the spring to return to its full height in a timely manner. The effect that I am experiencing is that simpley by the time I arrive at the next "whoop-d-doo" the spring has yet to reach full extension, causing a heavy entry into the hole and a rigid exit.

By returning the Raids to the full soft setting it will/should eliminate this effect.

So I have returned them to full soft but yet to test drive, but the theory sounds solid.

Thoughts and opinions welcome.

Depends entirely on the spring rate.

[rick130]

And doing what your describing is called 'jacking down' and the only time I've ever approached that was in a race car once with so much low speed rebound on the rear dampers I would lift the back wheels off the track under braking.

[Drover]

Thanks Rick,

How would the spring rate change this effect ?

Would it not be the stronger the spring the quicker it would/could reach full extension and weaker the spring the slower it could return.

My rear springs are TF heavy duty, rated at 420lb's if that makes sense....

The Koni guy spoke about shock mounts being torn off as the Raids were wound up to far.

[n plus one]

Thanks Rick,

How would the spring rate change this effect ?

Would it not be the stronger the spring the quicker it would/could reach full extension and weaker the spring the slower it could return.

My rear springs are TF heavy duty, rated at 420lb's if that makes sense....

The Koni guy spoke about shock mounts being torn off as the Raids were wound up to far.

Rebound damping damps a spring's return to its full length (I.e. it's rebound) - a firmer spring needs more rebound damping to control it's return rate. Excess rebound can cause spring pack by preventing the spring from fully re extending before it hits the next bump - kind of a ratcheting effect - but, as already noted, it's rare and tends to be a high speed stutters (think moto x) style issue.

FWIW, I've found that my 110 starts to feel low on rebound damping if/when I get too aggressive with lowering my tyre pressures - basically because the tyre starts to act a lot like an under-damped spring - could this be your issue?

[Drover]

Very possibly, I currently have 285/75x16 (33's) and was running them around 12psi, when testing out over humps on the beach access at Hawkes Nest. That is a lot of free side wall.

The more I learn, the more I don't think it's the Raids, but more likely operator's set up errors.

[PAT303]

I think Koni would know a thing or two about their shocks,load up the back with some sand bags and have a run on stockton. Pat

[PAT303]

4x Ranchos each corner....


your welcom :D

Are you serious?,I'm asking because I'll try them. Pat

[rick130]

FWIW, I've found that my 110 starts to feel low on rebound damping if/when I get too aggressive with lowering my tyre pressures - basically because the tyre starts to act a lot like an under-damped spring - could this be your issue?

Tyres are a spring, and are pretty much undamped, there is a little friction in the sidewall flexing, but not much.

Changing pressure changes the rate, and on a very, very odd occasion, if the tyre and spring rates match you are in a world of hurt as things start to cycle uncontrollably.
It is a very rare thing though, but yes, lower the tyre pressures a lot and it feels like an undamped ride spring.

[PAT303]

Rick,whats your take on Rancho's?. Pat

[n plus one]

Tyres are a spring, and are pretty much undamped, there is a little friction in the sidewall flexing, but not much.

Changing pressure changes the rate, and on a very, very odd occasion, if the tyre and spring rates match you are in a world of hurt as things start to cycle uncontrollably.
It is a very rare thing though, but yes, lower the tyre pressures a lot and it feels like an undamped ride spring.

Yeah, and coincidentally I was at similar pressures to what Drover was running - it was a pretty low speed oscillation - i.e scalloped out sand dunes, rather than say corrugations or the occasional larger whoop, which were both fine. That's probably a bit of a test against a damper issue?

[uninformed]

Depends entirely on the spring rate.

so matching the valving to spring rate ;)

[uninformed]

Are you serious?,I'm asking because I'll try them. Pat

No!

thats why I said 4x at EACH corner, even then they probably wouldnt be great. No I have not run them, but have heard and read enough about them to steer clear.

Shame they are not as good as their marketing.

[PAT303]

I've had Koni,Billies,Armstrong,Boge,Sachs,Tough dog and OME.I want to try a different brand. Pat

[uninformed]

I've had Koni,Billies,Armstrong,Boge,Sachs,Tough dog and OME.I want to try a different brand. Pat

For fun?

what about Fox or kings?

or really step it up and get some Ohlins :)

[Drover]

You could try DeCarbon, they were a high performance shock with a good reputation .... back in the day.

A quick google shows they are still available and even for defenders !

[Blade74]

For fun? what about Fox or kings? or really step it up and get some Ohlins :)
As uninformed said.
If you want to move up in quality from what you've had.

[isuzurover]

Rick,whats your take on Rancho's?. Pat

Not Rick, but IME they are cheap and nasty POS.

[slug_burner]

If your suspension is ok but fades it is because you are not able to get rid of the heat quickly enough. You can improve the situation by providing a bigger fluid reservoir which means the shock will soak up more energy to raise the temperature of a greater amount of fluid. More fluid helps average temperatures out a bit so that longer periods of work can be handled. Unless you have periods where the shocks are required to do less work the temperate is likely to keep increasing.

A bigger reservoir of fluid can be provided by increasing the diameter of the shock, however the ability to shed heat is dependant on surface area. For the same volume of fluid you get a greater surface area from twin shocks than from a single big shock (this does not include the surface area and volume that is provided from external canisters).

As temperature rises at some stage you get to an equilibrium where the amount of energy shed through heat through the surface area of the shocks equals the energy from the work the shocks are doing soaking up the energy resulting from dampening the suspension. Therefore I think that twin shocks are likely to provide a cooler running set of shocks than a single big shock that contains the same amount of fluid as the two shocks total.

Packaging and costs are other considerations that may drive you to twins or single shock configurations.

[Steve223]

this seems to have morphed in to a different post I would appreciate if you do not hijack mine but rather post a new topic for your suspension issues as this post was really about dual-shocks on a 110.

thanks a lot

[rick130]

Tyres are a spring, and are pretty much undamped, there is a little friction in the sidewall flexing, but not much.

Changing pressure changes the rate, and on a very, very odd occasion, if the tyre and spring rates match you are in a world of hurt as things start to cycle uncontrollably.
It is a very rare thing though, but yes, lower the tyre pressures a lot and it feels like an undamped ride spring.

What I should have said was that springs have a natural frequency, and if the spring and tyres natural frequency match, then you are in a world of hurt.

Actually had a car bounce off the road because of that, it's very, very disconcerting.

[Drover]

What I should have said was that springs have a natural frequency, and if the spring and tyres natural frequency match, then you are in a world of hurt.

Actually had a car bounce off the road because of that, it's very, very disconcerting.

This also could well be what Iam experiencing. Now with the Raids wound down and being more aware of effect of tyre pressures, hopefully I might just might have this beaten !

Would more air in the Poly-Bags help or hinder ?

Steve223 - you are correct that this thread has evolved away from dual shocks, but it is a general discussion on shocks, springs and their application. A great deal of the information is very applicable to dual shocks set ups.

If this thread was limited to just dual shocks it would have been dead and buried some time back.

[rick130]

If your suspension is ok but fades it is because you are not able to get rid of the heat quickly enough. You can improve the situation by providing a bigger fluid reservoir which means the shock will soak up more energy to raise the temperature of a greater amount of fluid. More fluid helps average temperatures out a bit so that longer periods of work can be handled. Unless you have periods where the shocks are required to do less work the temperate is likely to keep increasing.
[Snip].

What you are missing though it's that when you go to a bigger diameter damper you are usually going to a bigger piston size too.
Read what I said about piston size, internal pressures and heat earlier in the thread.

[Steve223]

This also could well be what Iam experiencing. Now with the Raids wound down and being more aware of effect of tyre pressures, hopefully I might just might have this beaten !



Would more air in the Poly-Bags help or hinder ?



Steve223 - you are correct that this thread has evolved away from dual shocks, but it is a general discussion on shocks, springs and their application. A great deal of the information is very applicable to dual shocks set ups.



If this thread was limited to just dual shocks it would have been dead and buried some time back.


Sorry mate it was actually not a general thread about shocks it was about dual shock set up and if it's dead that's fine but I'm still hoping to see some images of dual shock set ups at some stage.

Not sure what the difficulties is to create a new general suspension post if you have issues with your set up so that people who may look for dual shock set ups actually find a relevant post.

[rick130]

You could try DeCarbon, they were a high performance shock with a good reputation .... back in the day.

A quick google shows they are still available and even for defenders !

JC has used them a lot (pretty sure they are known as Delphi-de Carbon now) and reckons they are the goods.

Pat, talk to The Ultimate Suspension, they used to use de Carbon but now build their own mono tube dampers and should be very good at setting something up to suit.

[rick130]

Sorry mate it was actually not a general thread about shocks it was about dual shock set up and if it's dead that's fine but I'm still hoping to see some images of dual shock set ups at some stage.

Not sure what the difficulties is to create a new general suspension post if you have issues with your set up so that people who may look for dual shock set ups actually find a relevant post.


130man has dual dampers on the rear of his 130 and they are mounted the opposite way to the standard dampers, ie. they are inclined backwards to the rear of the chassis.

On a 110/130 chassis there are actually holes in the chassis for the upper shock bracket on the drivers side. On a Tdi the sedimenter is in the way on the passenger side.

Don't think I have any photo's of Ross's shock setup, only his heavily braced diff.
Send him a PM, I'm sure he'd be happy to post photo's (if he already hasn't somewhere)

IMO most everything that's discussed is relevant, damping is damping and whether we have one, two, three or four per wheel we need to have a basic understanding of what a damper does so we can make an informed decision.

[Shoogs]

Sorry mate it was actually not a general thread about shocks it was about dual shock set up and if it's dead that's fine but I'm still hoping to see some images of dual shock set ups at some stage.

Not sure what the difficulties is to create a new general suspension post if you have issues with your set up so that people who may look for dual shock set ups actually find a relevant post.

Steve, I ran dual rear shocks in Africa for 3 years and 50 odd thousand kms, on a 110, went well, all about heat and dissapation in my opinion, was just the Britpart set up with 420 pound springs and Supergaz shocks as they were all could get at the time, never broke and never any issues. Essentially the same set up as they use for game viewing vehicles with lots of americans and lycra...

Will try and dig up some photos but never really took any of the actual shocks.

cheers

Tim

[Steve223]

Steve, I ran dual rear shocks in Africa for 3 years and 50 odd thousand kms, on a 110, went well, all about heat and dissapation in my opinion, was just the Britpart set up with 420 pound springs and Supergaz shocks as they were all could get at the time, never broke and never any issues. Essentially the same set up as they use for game viewing vehicles with lots of americans and lycra...

Will try and dig up some photos but never really took any of the actual shocks.

cheers

Tim

Hi Tim,

Did you have dual shocks in front and back? Back seems to be more common and you can get the TF mounts but have not come across any solution for the front shocks.

Cheers

Steve

[rick130]

Hi Tim,

but have not come across any solution for the front shocks.

Cheers

Steve

Seen a number over the years, usually using RRC air mounts, or variations thereof.

There was a 6x6 with shocks mounted fore and aft of the front axle, I'll post pics later if I can't find the thread.

[uninformed]

Bolt on front doube shock mounts have been around since the 90s. Matt Lee use to make them along with others in the UK

[rick130]

Bolt on front doube shock mounts have been around since the 90s. Matt Lee use to make them along with others in the UK

Think Gwyn Lewis does too ?

His gear gets a big thumbs up from Low Ranger.

[Shoogs]

Yes mate, Britpart is sold through Rovacraft both standard and 2 inch, can reduce turning circle but I solved that with spacers, not quite legal here though.
My 110 has pre drilled holes in the chassis for dual rear shocks, so just needed a bottom mount made up. Top was just an additional standard mount. So not side by side but one front and rear of the axle.

Shocks are just the same all round, fully laden with all the roll cage and roof rack etc... was never a problem, though we never exceeded 90-100km/h any faster than that in Africa usually means you have sailed off a cliff...

I removed it all for licensing here in Oz but will refit at some stage.

Can't comment on the TR gear.

cheers

Tim

[n plus one]

Hi Tim,

Did you have dual shocks in front and back? Back seems to be more common and you can get the TF mounts but have not come across any solution for the front shocks.

Cheers

Steve

TF do front mount kits too?

I'll see if I can post some pics of my rears - sorry only got a shot of the blasted lower plate to hand, will get more on weekend if that would be useful?

[Steve223]

TF do front mount kits too?

I'll see if I can post some pics of my rears - sorry only got a shot of the blasted lower plate to hand, will get more on weekend if that would be useful?
thanks mate, sorry don't think TF do dual front mounts only rear

will see Ultimate Suspension today and see what they say

[n plus one]

TF514?

TF514 - Terrafirma Twin Shock Front Mounting Kit Must Be Used with Heavy Duty Turret Rings TF502 Allows 4 Shocks to Be Fitted Suitable for All Terrafirma Shocks Except Big Bore Expedition Shocks. Some Trimming Is Required If Fitting to Discovery 1 an (http://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/land-rover-defender/defender-90-and-110/accessories/off-roading/off-road-suspension/off-road-suspension-parts/tf514-terrafirma-twin-shock-front-mounting-kit-must-be-used-with-heavy-duty-turret-rings-tf502-allows-4-shocks-to-be-fitted-suitable-for-all-terrafir.html)

[Steve223]

thanks a lot for the input and especially for the ultimate suspension recommendation this guys are great. they took over 1h to examine, measure, weight and test drive the car. quite a few things wrong with current setup so out goes the TF crap and US springs and shocks in + heavy duty custom sway bars and Bailey Morris extrem double cardan prop shaft and then they will also engineer the lot

[two up]

I've had Koni,Billies,Armstrong,Boge,Sachs,Tough dog and OME.I want to try a different brand. Pat

Armada Extremes, distributed by superior engineering.

[uninformed]

thanks a lot for the input and especially for the ultimate suspension recommendation this guys are great. they took over 1h to examine, measure, weight and test drive the car. quite a few things wrong with current setup so out goes the TF crap and US springs and shocks in + heavy duty custom sway bars and Bailey Morris extrem double cardan prop shaft and then they will also engineer the lot

Carefull with the Bailey Morris extreme DC propshaft, I could well be wrong, but I believe this the unit that some have had issues with and they (Bailey Morris) will not cover it or back up problems. I even think it is NOT for road use??

Tom Woods is the go. Best value for money DC propshaft and totally rebuildable.

I have seen others that require adapter flange added and cost more but dont seem as good. Have to wonder why?

[Steve223]

Carefull with the Bailey Morris extreme DC propshaft, I could well be wrong, but I believe this the unit that some have had issues with and they (Bailey Morris) will not cover it or back up problems. I even think it is NOT for road use??

Tom Woods is the go. Best value for money DC propshaft and totally rebuildable.

I have seen others that require adapter flange added and cost more but dont seem as good. Have to wonder why?

hm a quick google search did not reveal any issues and as I would buy trough Ultimate Suspension they would be responsible for the warranty.

[Drover]

Both Chook73 and I both had Bailey Morris Extreme DC shafts, Chooks fell apart after about 10,000k's mine after 7,000k's. Luckily the vibrations alerted us to the distruction of the DC joint before a catastrophic failure.

Mine was a Cohen, Cape York. Very inconvienant.

We were lucky and got a refund, but BM stated that they were never intended for high speed use.

Seriously go for a custom made shaft or a a Tom Woods.

[Steve223]

Both Chook73 and I both had Bailey Morris Extreme DC shafts, Chooks fell apart after about 10,000k's mine after 7,000k's. Luckily the vibrations alerted us to the distruction of the DC joint before a catastrophic failure.

Mine was a Cohen, Cape York. Very inconvienant.

We were lucky and got a refund, but BM stated that they were never intended for high speed use.

Seriously go for a custom made shaft or a a Tom Woods.


Ok, thanks a lot

[rick130]

Seriously go for a custom made shaft or a a Tom Woods.

I can vouch for Tom Wood, he is fantastic to deal with, can't say enough about his service, he goes above and beyond and his shafts are fully serviceable.

[Steve223]

I can vouch for Tom Wood, he is fantastic to deal with, can't say enough about his service, he goes above and beyond and his shafts are fully serviceable.

I emailed him yesterday for prices and shipping so will go with TW

[Pateyw]

You won't be disappointed

[chook73]

Both Chook73 and I both had Bailey Morris Extreme DC shafts, Chooks fell apart after about 10,000k's mine after 7,000k's. Luckily the vibrations alerted us to the distruction of the DC joint before a catastrophic failure.

Mine was a Cohen, Cape York. Very inconvienant.

We were lucky and got a refund, but BM stated that they were never intended for high speed use.

Seriously go for a custom made shaft or a a Tom Woods.

Yep steer clear of the Bailey Morris shafts, even worse was the gibson shaft.

What I have been able to ascertain is that everyone running castor corrected arms seems to have DC shafts fail. I am not sure if there is anyone running the Tom Woods shaft who has castor corrected arms?

I am going to back to the standard shaft with wider uni joints and slotted swivel balls, hopefully that will be the solution......

[PAT303]

Can I ask what the difference is between a TW shaft and a off the shelf one?,seems like every supplier has DC shafts to sell. Pat

[rick130]

Can I ask what the difference is between a TW shaft and a off the shelf one?,seems like every supplier has DC shafts to sell. Pat


TW's DC has a greater working angle than most all DC couplings, and it's fully greasable, including the centring bearing (with a needle tool) and his yolks have a greater working angle than a stock shaft too.
He uses off the shelf 1310 Spicer Unis, the same as a Wrangler, so unis are easy to get and strong.

I've never heard of a TW DC failure like the Bailey Morris ones either.