A few questions about 90's

[Twelfthman]

Hey everyone,

New AULRO member here, long time LR fan.

I'm looking to sell my current 79 series Cruiser (lifted, locked f+r, 35's) and purchase a 90. Reason is I now live inner city and it's basically too big. Not only that but my very good friend has a wrangler 2Dr who I try to follow. We wheel pretty hard and I have a hard time following him some places simply because of the approach, ramp and departure angles.

I wanted to ask you lot here a few specifics about the Puma as Im worried that what I'm after wont be obtainable to the extent I think it will on the 90 D'fer. And the last thing I want is to lose to a Wrangler, psh.

1: I'd preferably be keeping the 35's and thus looking to fit them to the 90. I've read countless forums across the internet about what would be required to fit them. Obviously I would need a lift (2"???) to fit them.
My concern is the strength of the CV's. I went and crawled under a new Puma at a dealership the other day and they don't seem too big. Has anyone had any experience with this? Good, bad or indifferent?

2: Suspension. I've read alot of info about how LR's don't need to be lifted as much as the Jap trucks to achieve the same results. Also, given it's a SWB a big lift is not a good for COG issues. My concern is, will the defender flex well enough on a 2" lift? Also then dislocating vs non dislocating (a whole other kettle of fish from what I can gather)

3: Given the size of the SWB, and the 3500kg towing capacity, how does the 90 go when towing offroad, given the mass of the car would be less than a 110 or comparable?

4: Is there room for a 2nd battery under the bonnet of the 2.4 and 2.2 Pumas?

Cheers
Twelfth

edit: tyres are BFG KM2 315/75/16

[460cixy]

You have X-ray vision?

[Psimpson7]

What year are you looking at?

03-05 - Td5
10-11 - 2.4 Puma
11-current - 2.2 Puma




1: I'd preferably be keeping the 35's and thus looking to fit them to the 90. I've read countless forums across the internet about what would be required to fit them. Obviously I would need a lift (2"???) to fit them.
My concern is the strength of the CV's. I went and crawled under a new Puma at a dealership the other day and they don't seem too big. Has anyone had any experience with this? Good, bad or indifferent?



I ran my TD5 90 on the std cv's on 33's and 35's for years and never broke one, even with the front locker in. Having said that they aren't that strong and its a simple upgrade from Ashcroft transmissions in the UK, and mine have been changed now. My TD5 90 gets a very very hard life as well.




2: Suspension. I've read alot of info about how LR's don't need to be lifted as much as the Jap trucks to achieve the same results. Also, given it's a SWB a big lift is not a good for COG issues. My concern is, will the defender flex well enough on a 2" lift? Also then dislocating vs non dislocating (a whole other kettle of fish from what I can gather)



2" lift should be plenty. I wouldnt go any higher than that.




3: Given the size of the SWB, and the 3500kg towing capacity, how does the 90 go when towing offroad, given the mass of the car would be less than a 110 or comparable?



I bought my first one basically only for towing and it was fantastic. Very short overhang between the rear axle and the towball helps. They weigh roughly 2tons. I towed 2.5-3.5ton trailers all over the place with no issues




4: Is there room for a 2nd battery under the bonnet of the 2.4 and 2.2 Pumas?



Not under the bonnet no. The main battery is under the passenger seat and you can fit 2 slightly smaller batteries in there

I liked my first one so much I bought another one!

[Twelfthman]

Hurhurhur :P
No xray vision, unfortunately.
Just that I've read CV's could be a weak point. Which isn't exactly something new for people that 4x4 but given the size of the 90 and the size of my 79 LC I would assume that there would be more chance of failure on the 90 due to the smaller size??? However I could be completely wrong, that's why I'm here to learn :)

[Dopey]

Just a quick reply to your questions,
1). 35" (315/75/r16) are bloody huge for a 90. Can be fitted easily, use flat dog flares to cover them. 2" lift required. -25 offset wheels from Dynamic wheels are available to stop them rubbing on components and chassis and also to allow for better steering.
Driveline gear...... Ashcroft (UK) is your answer..... Ashcroft make "stuff" for landrovers, it works well. They are also members of this forum if you have any questions.

2). Suspension..... Start reading threads by forum member "lowranger" about suspension set ups and "balancing" front to rear setups. Have a look at some of his videos on "Vimeo" and at the pictures and comments from the "superior engineering super flex arms" threads.

3). Never done any towing of any trailers offroad, so cannot help there.

4). Batteries on defenders go under the passenger seat.
Some members on here have managed to fit triple battery systems in there, some just use doubles. Not enough room under the bonnet of a "Puma" TDCI defender for a battery.

If you PM me your email address I can send you some pictures of 90's that might answer your questions.

Anyways, maybe a 90 with standard height suspension and a locker in the rear and an ATB in the front would surprise you with what they can do without going to big lifts and huge tyres. I have both.
The experience of the driver, not the modifications on the machine is the main thing in getting anywhere offroad AND back again without breaking things.
Regards,
Mike.

Edit, 35" tyres with -25 offset wheels.......good luck with getting them engineered and legal (some have done it though with no problems)
Usually a double card on front propshaft is required for a 2" lift on a TDCI Puma defender, due to the angle that the engine/gearbox/transfer case is mounted at.

Psimpson7 got in before me, I forgot his write ups, you can learn a lot by reading his comments on here and on the 4wd action forum as well about his TD5 90.

[Twelfthman]

What year are you looking at?

03-05 - Td5
10-11 - 2.4 Puma
11-current - 2.2 Puma

I ran my TD5 90 on the std cv's on 33's and 35's for years and never broke one, even with the front locker in. Having said that they aren't that strong and its a simple upgrade from Ashcroft transmissions in the UK, and mine have been changed now. My TD5 90 gets a very very hard life as well.

2" lift should be plenty. I wouldnt go any higher than that.

I bought my first one basically only for towing and it was fantastic. Very short overhang between the rear axle and the towball helps. They weigh roughly 2tons. I towed 2.5-3.5ton trailers all over the place with no issues

Not under the bonnet no. The main battery is under the passenger seat and you can fit 2 slightly smaller batteries in there

I liked my first one so much I bought another one!

I think I'd be looking @ the 2.4 however I could be swayed to the 2.2. I think I'd rather look for a newer car than the td5 as my current LC is 04.

I've heard the name Ashcroft used a fair bit, Ill go and have a gander and see what I can read about them and their LR gear.

[Twelfthman]

Just a quick reply to your questions,
1). 35" (315/75/r16) are bloody huge for a 90. Can be fitted easily, use flat dog flares to cover them. 2" lift required. -25 offset wheels from Dynamic wheels are available to stop them rubbing on components and chassis and also to allow for better steering.
Driveline gear...... Ashcroft (UK) is your answer..... Ashcroft make "stuff" for landrovers, it works well. They are also members of this forum if you have any questions.

2). Suspension..... Start reading threads by forum member "lowranger" about suspension set ups and "balancing" front to rear setups. Have a look at some of his videos on "Vimeo" and at the pictures and comments from the "superior engineering super flex arms" threads.

3). Never done any towing of any trailers offroad, so cannot help there.

4). Batteries on defenders go under the passenger seat.
Some members on here have managed to fit triple battery systems in there, some just use doubles. Not enough room under the bonnet of a "Puma" TDCI defender for a battery.

If you PM me your email address I can send you some pictures of 90's that might answer your questions.

Anyways, maybe a 90 with standard height suspension and a locker in the rear and an ATB in the front would surprise you with what they can do without going to big lifts and huge tyres. I have both.
The experience of the driver, not the modifications on the machine is the main thing in getting anywhere offroad AND back again without breaking things.
Regards,
Mike.

Edit, 35" tyres with -25 offset wheels.......good luck with getting them engineered and legal (some have done it though with no problems)
Usually a double card on front propshaft is required for a 2" lift on a TDCI Puma defender, due to the angle that the engine/gearbox/transfer case is mounted at.

Psimpson7 got in before me, I forgot his write ups, you can learn a lot by reading his comments on here and on the 4wd action forum as well about his TD5 90.

Thanks for the awesome quick responses!!!

Yeah I realise the 35's would be silly big on such a small car. I figured I would have them so I may as well try and use them. They are already -35 (edit: -25) offset so they 'should' be a swap. Also, I understand the difficulty getting them engineered.

As for the Sup Engineering gear. I've only ever had good experiences with their stuff so I'm happy they make some arms for the defender. Would def be investigating getting some fitted if (when) I get a 90.

I completely agree re: driver skill. I've broken stuff before in rural areas, thankfully nothing too serious (sway bar mounts, and locker air hoses) and it's a pain.

When I get home I'll do some more reading!

Thanks again for the prompt replies. Great community you have here.

Twelfth

[Dopey]

Land rover defender wheels/hubs are 5x165.1 PCD, I think Toyota are different?

[Dopey]

35" aren't silly if you have a need for them,
However, it isn't really required for most...
Recommended that you change the diff ratio if going to the bigger buggers.
Go to the 4.10.1 or whatever....anyways,
Just shoved a 315/75/r16 KM2 from one of my bush bashing 90's under my 2013 model 90 for a pic for you.
Nb, the 2013 is running completely stock suspension and driveline at the moment.

[Dopey]

Here's another pic, standard sawtooth wheel (+20 offset) on the back with. 235/85r16.
315/75/r16 on the front.

[Twelfthman]

Land rover defender wheels/hubs are 5x165.1 PCD, I think Toyota are different?

Of course. Brain fart =\

[Tombie]

Keep in mind too...

The ground clearance (under diff) is greater by 2" for a given tyre size over the Japanese offerings.

So a set of 33's will give you the same under diff clearances as a Cruiser on 35's

:)

[Psimpson7]

I ran various sets of tyres on mine the largest been the equivalent of a 345mm wide 35" tyre.

It was exponentially better off road on those than it was on the 255/85 Muddies, in the same way they were far better than the 235/85 all terrains it came on!

Having said that they had a habit of chewing up panelwork on the front. I had to run them with all the arches off before I modified all the front end panelwork drastically

Just to give you an idea of how big they were! And no they weren't used on the road atall!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1145.jpg

[Twelfthman]

Keep in mind too...

The ground clearance (under diff) is greater by 2" for a given tyre size over the Japanese offerings.

So a set of 33's will give you the same under diff clearances as a Cruiser on 35's
:)

Tombie,
I'm confused as to how this is possible? Is the diff smaller? Isn't the height of the diff to the ground soley dependant on tire size? If so how do the two differ? (heh, differ :p )

[Twelfthman]

Here's another pic, standard sawtooth wheel (+20 offset) on the back with. 235/85r16.
315/75/r16 on the front.

Yeah, they look pretty mean compared to the 235/85's. Although from your first picture it doesn't look like it would take much up travel to start scrubbing?

Are extended bump stops needed for a 2" lift?

[Tombie]

Tombie,

I'm confused as to how this is possible? Is the diff smaller? Isn't the height of the diff to the ground soley dependant on tire size? If so how do the two differ? (heh, differ :p )


Pumpkin size (and CW) are different - smaller - on a Land Rover Diff.

[Leroy_Riding]

I’ll throw my 2c in. .

I have a 2.2 'puma' TDCI 90.

I have followed a 4door wrangler on 37's and sway bar disconnects the whole hog and was able to follow him everywhere in a 100% stock standard D90, while it may not have been as 'easy' for me I was still able to follow, i am sure there are plenty of places he could have gone I couldn’t have but if you are after the extremes of off-roading like that you should think about having two vehicles.
also followed a 2 door wrangler a mate owns 2" lift and 33" Mud tires with sway bar disconnects and rear 'auto locker'(mechanical LSD clunky lunchbox locker), again my 90 is 100% stock, I was able to go places he could not!

Towing off-road in the 90 i have only done once with a pretty light trailer, no issues, only time i noticed it there was down slippery hills (it had no brakes) and when the axle dropped into a ditch and gave the cab a jerk as it pulled out.

On road Towing, Ive done a fair amount of, while with 3+T on the back it does feel a little un-nerving when you have to stomp hard on the brakes you get that jack knife feeling for the slightest movements, but never had a rear issue. The little guy can get bit of a bounce going though due to the SWB.

35" tires are a silly Idea no matter what the car if you are talking about city driving, I drive my 90 into the city a few times a week, fit in parking spaces easy, it’s quite zippy for what it is and has great visibility, would rather drive it around town than a commodore. . throw big 35" mud tires 2" lift on it and I probably wouldn’t want to drive it anywhere.

Lifting the 'puma' is problematic, search on here for threads about the front pop shaft binding up, a double-cardon shaft is required.

my 2c
Leroy

[Twelfthman]

I’ll throw my 2c in. .

I have a 2.2 'puma' TDCI 90.

I have followed a 4door wrangler on 37's and sway bar disconnects the whole hog and was able to follow him everywhere in a 100% stock standard D90, while it may not have been as 'easy' for me I was still able to follow, i am sure there are plenty of places he could have gone I couldn’t have but if you are after the extremes of off-roading like that you should think about having two vehicles.
also followed a 2 door wrangler a mate owns 2" lift and 33" Mud tires with sway bar disconnects and rear 'auto locker'(mechanical LSD clunky lunchbox locker), again my 90 is 100% stock, I was able to go places he could not!

Towing off-road in the 90 i have only done once with a pretty light trailer, no issues, only time i noticed it there was down slippery hills (it had no brakes) and when the axle dropped into a ditch and gave the cab a jerk as it pulled out.

On road Towing, Ive done a fair amount of, while with 3+T on the back it does feel a little un-nerving when you have to stomp hard on the brakes you get that jack knife feeling for the slightest movements, but never had a rear issue. The little guy can get bit of a bounce going though due to the SWB.

35" tires are a silly Idea no matter what the car if you are talking about city driving, I drive my 90 into the city a few times a week, fit in parking spaces easy, it’s quite zippy for what it is and has great visibility, would rather drive it around town than a commodore. . throw big 35" mud tires 2" lift on it and I probably wouldn’t want to drive it anywhere.

Lifting the 'puma' is problematic, search on here for threads about the front pop shaft binding up, a double-cardon shaft is required.

my 2c
Leroy


Hey Leroy,
Appreciate your input. I already have 2 vehicles, one being a 53 Willys CJ3B. So having another 'dedicated' 4x4 really isnt on the cards. As I'm well and truly pushing the ms. as it is! :P
Given the type of terrain we have in Aus I would like to think that the 90 would be adept at being an all rounder. Touring, DD and being able to tackle the tougher tracks.

I have 2 sets of tires atm and only use the 35's when I'm wheeling on the weekend / trips away. As for town parking, my big cruiser is already too big for that, even with my 32 AT's on. As for offroad, the 35's don't look oversized on such a big car at all and have done everything I've asked of them. The limiting factor being the approach / depart angles of the vehicle itself, hence me looking at the 90.

Like I said before, given that I'll have them, I thought I'd ask.

I will look into the DC shaft.

Also, it makes me happy to hear that the stock D'fer performs so well!

Cheers :)

[Dopey]

Yeah, they look pretty mean compared to the 235/85's. Although from your first picture it doesn't look like it would take much up travel to start scrubbing?

Are extended bump stops needed for a 2" lift?

I've never had 35"s on a standard height 90 before, my 90's that I use with the 35"s on all have various degrees of lift on them.

My 2013 model 90 is slowly being fitted out to be used mainly as a tourer (I travel pretty lightly, so I don't need the room of a 110 or a 130), whereas I have other 90's that are used just for bush bashing trips.

I haven't ever used extended bump stops, but I know that some on here do.

Just be aware that with the big tyres on they may hit the inner guards or worse stuff up your shocks if you haven't done your homework with suspension calculations and test cycling of the suspension (I know all about both of these.....:censored::censored::censored: ).

Easiest thing for me was to clearance the inner guards, front and rear.
Early 90/110/130 front inner guards are metal and can easily be modified, later ones are plastic....

Rear inner guards have been cut out and new alloy panels riveted in to allow for the tyres to not hit while flexing.

On my bush bashers I have "Flat Dog" flares that are 50mm/2" wider than standard that are mounted further up that the standard plastic flares.
I have cut out the outer guards under the new flares on both front and rear guards to allow the bigger tyres to tuck in under flex.
This is something that I now realise is probably not needed.....:censored:

Here is a picture of one of my other 90's with 35's and flatdog flares, no problem under flex with tucking them into the guards until the axle and bumpstop meet:)

Regards,
Mike.

[Dopey]

I've been thinking a bit and doing a bit of measuring.....
If I was running a 0 offset rim with 35/10.5r16's instead of the 35/12.5r16 with the -25 offset, they would be alright with very little scrubbing (and only then on the plastic guards which could be cut down).

I'll have to try it one day, anyways here's a few more pics of the 315/75r16's.

[Dopey]

Wide buggers with the standard guards, looks pretty stupid.

[Dopey]

Trying to tuck the rear tyre into the guard, running a 10.5" width with a 0 offset rim would go with no problem.
In this photo the tyre is just hitting on the alloy in the inner guard area and the bump stop is just touching.

[Dopey]

Whereas with the front it is just starting to tuck into the guard nicely, with heaps of room to spare both in height and width.

[Leroy_Riding]

Those tires look Massive on the 90 0_0

in the firt photo it looks like any movement whatso ever woudl ahve them rubbing, but aparently not hey?

how is it fro turning circle though?

Leroy.

[Twelfthman]

Wowsers,
Those 35's do look huge on that 90. Hmmmm. Just to confirm, is that stock suspension on the 90 in that picture?

My BFG KM2's are apparently not a 'true' 35 so that may actually work to my advantage when trying to stuff them under the 90.

I'm just trying to build a 'shopping list' of sorts to figure out what will be needed to do it properly. That and I want some seriously flexy suspension also.
:twisted:
Twelfth

[Twelfthman]

Pumpkin size (and CW) are different - smaller - on a Land Rover Diff.

Because the diffs are smaller than that on the Cruiser, I would assume this will mean they are weaker.

Is this an issue on the new (post TD5) 90s? Are they prone to failure?

Twelfth

[Dopey]

G'day fellas.
Just confirming, absolutely stock standard suspension on the 2013 model 90.

Steering stops have been adjusted to allow best angle without the tyres rubbing on the radius arms.
Wheels are -25 offset, my normal wheels are sawtooths with +20.6 offset.

I have got some 110 heavy duty/130 standard front springs to put in it, however I have not yet put them in.

I think that twelfthman may be right in that the 315/75r16 KM2's are not a true 35", will measure them later.

Anyways, I'm putting the standard 235/85r16s back on, must say I was impressed with the way the little 2.2 TDCI handled the bigger tyres, although I am still taking it easy running the car in (still has less than 13,000klms on it).

There are quite big differences in chassis and body measurements from one Defender to the next......

So while I may be able to fit 35"s on my one someone else may have a slightly offset body or chassis slightly out of true.

Regards,
Mike.

NB: pic of springs to be installed (110heavy duty/130 standards) - along with some Koni Raids soon.

[Dopey]

Because the diffs are smaller than that on the Cruiser, I would assume this will mean they are weaker.

Is this an issue on the new (post TD5) 90s? Are they prone to failure?

Twelfth

Standard rover diffs from Landrover usually need to be set up properly, the factory doesn't do it.......

I think that others have found out that if you abuse them to much they break,
My opinion is if you use them hard and they break, then upgrade them.

If you get the diff set up properly and drive with the intention of getting "there" (wherever "there" is) and back again, they give you no problems, however if your life would be fulfilled if you are featured in a 4wd action DVD and drive like they do in them, then about $15,000 to $20,000 grands worth of driveline/suspension upgrades will set you right.

Regards,
Mike.

[Dopey]

My BFG KM2's are apparently not a 'true' 35 so that may actually work to my advantage when trying to stuff them under the 90.
Twelfth

I just measured the 315/75r16 km2, true height comes to 34 & 1/8" or 866mm.
Not really 35".... These tyres have approximately 1100klms on them, so basically new.

Anyways, it's not the height that is the issue in running these tyres on my standard suspension 90, it is the width.

When the tyres are tucking into the rear guards under suspension compression, I feel that if I didn't have the extra alloy rear corner protection pieces and the steel corner guards outside them, that the sheet alloy guards would have been crumpled, as it was with the extra stiffness there, the plastic guard flares were the ones that had to flex and make way for the tyres.

Picture= true 315/75r16 tyre height = 34 & 1/8" or 866mm.

Regards,
Mike.