Disco 4 Aftermarket Xenon Lights installation

[mayank_s12]

I am currently looking to install aftermarket xenon lights in my Disco 4 MY13, because of my impatience I missed on the factory option.
Can someone suggest any place in Sydney to get it done..

cheers

[Torero22]

Do you want them to be legal ???

To be legal they need to be self leveling, It could be very expensive !!!

I am looking at putting some spottys to get around the problem.

Any advice you have to share would be appreciated.

Regards
Tor

[mayank_s12]

Tor,

I checked before with ARB for getting the LED spot lights the issue is mounting points, either have to drill in the bumper or get a bull bar/nudge bar. There are a couple of options that are not very secure ( which ARB won't recommend considering the lights cost around $1500 bucks)

cheers

[101RRS]

Tor you need to understand your car a bit more - the car is self leveling so meets this requirement - the optional Bi Xenons in the D3/D4/RRS are not self leveling as the car does this.

To the original question - are you intending to source original Bi-xenons from somewhere or just put in HIDs in the Halogen projector??

If the later, there is the legality question and the D4 does tick all the boxes except for maybe the ADR compliance on the housings for HIDs rather than Halogens.

I have put in HIDs in my low beam projector and the beam and cutoff is exactly the same as the halogen.

If you do go this route, unlike the genuine Bi-Xenons you will not have HID hi beam. Your high beam will be provided be the Halogen Hi Beam even though your low beam is HID. The globe is H7 and there is no Hi/Lo beam option for these globes.

Any decent auto electrician could do the conversion but some may not want to do it because of the legality argument. Also - do not go above 4300K in colour as this matches the originals and is the best colour to drive with.

If you want the full Bi-Xenon experience I would be looking to the UK to get a second hand set and have them fitted and turned on (not sure this is needed) at the dealer.

Cheers

Garry

[Torero22]

Tor you need to understand your car a bit more - the car is self leveling so meets this requirement - the optional Bi Xenons in the D3/D4/RRS are not self leveling as the car does this.

Cheers

Garry

Thanks Garry, please do educate me - I agree that I need more knowledge on the beast.

Only reason that I said what I said, was that is what I was told by TJM. A lot they know about the Disc 4 - hey.

How does it do the headlight leveling ??

Are you saying the vehicle has sensors and uses the air suspension to level the whole car !!!! WOW if that is true I am blown away !!
But if so - why would it self level on an SE ? what other reason would the leveling be needed for, other than for the Xeon headlights ?

Always willing to learn, Master Garry, I am just a padwan ! (Star Wars - for those uneducated in our group)

Cheers
Tor

[mayank_s12]

I was looking at getting the HID's in the current housing.

I will look at the second hand option from UK as well and see the cost benefits..

Cheers

[SBD4]

Thanks Garry, please do educate me - I agree that I need more knowledge on the beast.

Only reason that I said what I said, was that is what I was told by TJM. A lot they know about the Disc 4 - hey.

How does it do the headlight leveling ??

Are you saying the vehicle has sensors and uses the air suspension to level the whole car !!!! WOW if that is true I am blown away !!
But if so - why would it self level on an SE ? what other reason would the leveling be needed for, other than for the Xeon headlights ?

Always willing to learn, Master Garry, I am just a padwan ! (Star Wars - for those uneducated in our group)

Cheers
Tor

you got it!

[jonesy63]

There's one more requirement for HID lights on cars in Australia, in addition to self-leveling... that is, they need to have washers.

For all the hassle involved - it would be easier to pick up the bi-xenon lights and washers from a wrecker or UK. Then install and have Car Configuration File (CCF) updated to enable them.

[Epic pooh]

Tor - these vehicles are always trying to level themselves which is why they fart when parked, move around discernibly from time to time when pulling up on not level surfaces and can drive people who are not familiar with them nuts trying to jack them up ! One of the reasons the rear raises before the front is to do with not blinding oncoming drivers with the Headlights when raising from height to height.

I understood you're also supposed to have headlight washers with HIDs, don't know if non-HID equipped vehicles have this ?

[101RRS]

How does it do the headlight leveling ??

Are you saying the vehicle has sensors and uses the air suspension to level the whole car !!!! WOW if that is true I am blown away !!


Maybe you need to read your handbook :D.

Garry

[101RRS]

There's one more requirement for HID lights on cars in Australia, in addition to self-leveling... that is, they need to have washers.

I am not sure about your D4 but my RRS has head light washers and I thought all the D3/D4/RRS range did.

Garry

[mayank_s12]

is ebay the best source for getting the whole light assembly from UK?

[mayank_s12]

I am not sure about your D4 but my RRS has head light washers and I thought all the D3/D4/RRS range did.

Garry



My standard D4 has washers as well

[Torero22]

Maybe you need to read your handbook :D.

Garry

I will when I pick it up tomorrow !! [tonguewink]

Can't wait to get the new baby !

Tor

[101RRS]

I thought you already had one. You might want to leave a couple of days to read and digest the handbook - oh and it is a generic world wide handbook so some things in it may not apply to your vehicle.

Garry

[sheerluck]

is ebay the best source for getting the whole light assembly from UK?

Check the for sale section on Disco3.co.uk as well.

Just be very careful of what you're looking at on eBay UK, I've seen a couple of lots where they were selling a pair of headlights with the part number only, and they turned out to be LHD.

[pwillo]

I understand HID low beam can have issues with the cutoff, but what is the issue with just changing the H7 high beam to HID?

I have separate bulbs for high and low so it would be a relatively easy swap just to do the high beam. MY13 model too.

Regards

[Graeme]

Just be very careful of what you're looking at on eBay UK, I've seen a couple of lots where they were selling a pair of headlights with the part number only, and they turned out to be LHD.I understood that there's a lever inside the assemblies to switch from LHD to RHD but perhaps this feature only is only on some as I don't recall seeing it on mine.

[sheerluck]

I understood that there's a lever inside the assemblies to switch from LHD to RHD but perhaps this feature only is only on some as I don't recall seeing it on mine.

I understood the same thing Graeme, and very nearly hit the button on buying a set that were going very very cheap. I did a bit of research, and found that they did not have the ability to switch over (it was someone asking the question on a European forum).

It seemed the UK spec headlights have the ability to switch from RHD to LHD, but only some LHD headlights have the reverse.

[101RRS]

I understand HID low beam can have issues with the cutoff, but what is the issue with just changing the H7 high beam to HID?

I have separate bulbs for high and low so it would be a relatively easy swap just to do the high beam. MY13 model too.

Regards

The cutoff for low beam is the same as for Halogen and HID,

I also put them in my Hi beam but the issue is that HIDs take from 5 to 10 secs to light up to full brilliance so when you need Hi beam urgently you will not get it. Not such an issue when you turn on your low beams and leave them on.

HIDs are far better than Halogens in the hi beam light but I have gone back to halogens as I want these lights to come on when I want them.

Garry

[pwillo]

Thanks Garry, I had HID spotlights on my previous car and experienced 3-4 sec delay, which I had forgotten about.
This time I have LED spotlights and I rarely turn them off, if I want high beam I want the lot. LED is instant on, a HID delay would mean nothing.

My old HID spots were converted IPF's and I found them great for distance but a little bright (6000k) and not so great up close. That's why I went for LED this time, much better closer, not so good at distance.

Thinking about HID high beam to get the distance.

Regards

[tiddy]

The cutoff for low beam is the same as for Halogen and HID,

I also put them in my Hi beam but the issue is that HIDs take from 5 to 10 secs to light up to full brilliance so when you need Hi beam urgently you will not get it. Not such an issue when you turn on your low beams and leave them on.

HIDs are far better than Halogens in the hi beam light but I have gone back to halogens as I want these lights to come on when I want them.

Garry

Interesting, I had aftermarket bi xenon/ HID's in a previous car & when the light was switched to hi beam a shutter opened allowing it operate instantly & when switched back to low beam, the shutter closed over the hi beam element.

So effectively hi beam was on all the time meaning no warm up delay but the shutter controlled it.

tiddy

[101RRS]

Interesting, I had aftermarket bi xenon/ HID's in a previous car & when the light was switched to hi beam a shutter opened allowing it operate instantly & when switched back to low beam, the shutter closed over the hi beam element.

So effectively hi beam was on all the time meaning no warm up delay but the shutter controlled it.

tiddy

If they were aftermarket then they were H4 globes - the D3/D4/RRS uses H7 globes and there is no aftermarket shutter arrangement for these. The OEM Bi-xenon the the landies have this shutter arrangement and a Halogen fill in high beam - this the Hi beam on halogen fitted vehicles.

Garry

[Torero22]

Thanks Garry, I had HID spotlights on my previous car and experienced 3-4 sec delay, which I had forgotten about.
This time I have LED spotlights and I rarely turn them off, if I want high beam I want the lot. LED is instant on, a HID delay would mean nothing.

My old HID spots were converted IPF's and I found them great for distance but a little bright (6000k) and not so great up close. That's why I went for LED this time, much better closer, not so good at distance.

Thinking about HID high beam to get the distance.

Regards

I went to a dealer for Xeon HID lights, they advised that you need to mix your beams. that is you get one as a wide beam and another as a focused beam, this way you get an extremely well lit area in front and to the distance. It seems he knew what he was talking about, anyone lese tried this configuration ?

Tor

[captcam68]

Hi Tor
On the old D3 I had 2 ipf 900 extremes halogen, kerb side a flood, outside a spot and this worked really well (2009 when hid's were very xy) on present D4
As I have a 40" light bar on the roof I went the ipf's again in Hid both spots and they are brilliant. Light bar is a combo flood spot but more flood really so they compliment each other well. Regardless of what the manufacturers say the spot in a light bar do'snt seem as good as a dedicated conventional spot.

[jon3950]

I went to a dealer for Xeon HID lights, they advised that you need to mix your beams. that is you get one as a wide beam and another as a focused beam, this way you get an extremely well lit area in front and to the distance. It seems he knew what he was talking about, anyone lese tried this configuration ?

Tor

There's no one right answer here. You need to think about what your usage will be. What follows is purely my opinion, based on my night driving which is mostly on country roads in hilly areas or in the bush on firetrails (often at high speed).

Personally I am not a fan of spot beams at all. If you are doing a lot of travelling out west on long, straight and flat roads then they have their place. On twisty or hilly roads I find them distracting as they end up as a small spot of light moving all over the road and scenery. To me this tends to make you focus on the moving spot and reduces your peripheral vision. HID makes this worse as it tends to be brighter and more focussed. Also an HID spot reflecting off a road sign hurts - spreads are bad enough.

I also think halogen still has its place. For me the best combination is a set of halogen cornering lamps for up close and a set of HID driving beams for distance. This gives good close up spread to the front sides of the vehicle that isn't too dazzling and also cuts through fog and dust, plus a brighter spread further out in front for a reasonable distance, without being focused on a single point. After testing several different combinations, this is what we now run on the rally car. Unfortunately its a bit hard to fit 4 Hella 4000s across the front of a Disco.

The headlights on the D3 were pretty good like this, but with the D4 they took a backwards step with the possum spotters. On the D3 I ran a few different lights and ended up with the Hella 4000 compact driving beams converted to HID. Not the greatest lights around, but I was happy with them. They were a good compromise between size and performance, without breaking the budget. When I finally get around to fitting lights to the D4 I will probably do something similar, but whatever I get will both be driving beams. To me this is the best combination - a broad even spread of light without any bright spots.

One very important point though - If you do go HID, stick with 4300k. Anything higher, including the popular 6000k, is too blue. You actually get less light output and lose contrast, making things harder to see. I can't emphasise this point enough, the difference is huge.

Cheers,
Jon

[Torero22]

Thanks Jon, you do put an interesting point.

[Graeme]

I like my D4's lights with its re-aligned no-longer-possum 4300K HID-converted fill-in lights.

[blackpack 4]

Hi guys, I am new to the group. I am on my third Disco and have just purchased my first new one (Disco 4 se) I swapped over Rhino roof rack from my last disco 3. I have just fitted a 120w Korr light bar under the roof rack. Very bright (bit of wind noise) To my question....I am considering fitting HID bulbs and ballasts to the low beam. I am concerned about the Canbus and I am wondering if any members have used a product they could recommend and perhaps cost and where to source. Thanks in advance
Bill

[101RRS]

I am concerned about the Canbus and I am wondering if any members have used a product they could recommend and perhaps cost and where to source. Thanks in advance
Bill

My experience with my car is that it is not an issue at all - cheapo HIDs are just plug in and work straight off - nothing else to do.

Garry

[blackpack 4]

My experience with my car is that it is not an issue at all - cheapo HIDs are just plug in and work straight off - nothing else to do.

Garry
Garry, thanks for the reply...any issues with the Canbus and warning lights with the cheaper kits...I guess you went with a canbus friendly type....did you use 35w or 50w ballast and what lumens size do you recommend? Thanks again


Bill

[101RRS]

Garry, thanks for the reply...any issues with the Canbus and warning lights with the cheaper kits...I guess you went with a canbus friendly type....did you use 35w or 50w ballast and what lumens size do you recommend? Thanks again


Bill

I do not have a canbus kit - no issues with lights etc. Mine is a $60 ebay set - 55w and 4300k - no idea on lumens. Everything fits inside the light housing.

Garry

[blackpack 4]

I do not have a canbus kit - no issues with lights etc. Mine is a $60 ebay set - 55w and 4300k - no idea on lumens. Everything fits inside the light housing.

Garry
Garry,
Sorry to be a pest...is your vehicle with these fitted to a late model with the 'smart alternator' ?


Cheers
Bill

[101RRS]

Mine is a 07MY - I thought all D3/D4/RRS had the smart alternator - but yes my alt is variable voltage etc.

Garry

[sheerluck]

Mine is a 07MY - I thought all D3/D4/RRS had the smart alternator - but yes my alt is variable voltage etc.

Garry

I thought that too Garry.

[blackpack 4]

Mine is a 07MY - I thought all D3/D4/RRS had the smart alternator - but yes my alt is variable voltage etc.

Garry

Thanks, much appreciated.....how do I post a thank you to your membership on this site?


Thanks again


Bill

[Celtoid]

Hi Guys,

I'm absolutely no expert at all so feel free to jump in if I've got something wrong or mis-interpreted something..... :-)

I currently have two D4s (one is for sale). The older SE has Bi-Xenon and the newer MY13 SE does not.

I've made quite a few enquiries with regards to swapping the systems (lights) over. However, I haven't managed to find anybody that has successfully achieved this or even tried. I'd be very scared to try without knowing of it actually being achieved.

The feedback indicates that in theory you can but not as easily as you would hope. I suspect the hardware maybe relatively simple but like anything in a D4, there is a software component. The wiring harness may have differences too.

What some folks may not understand is the fact that the main lights, the Bi-Xenons (behind the fish eye lens), do not have a separate low and high beam. Bi-Xenon fitted cars also pulse (with higher current) the lights momentarily when they first switch on, I believe this is to bring them up to operating temperature straight away. The Xenon bulbs are on whenever the headlights are on and hi-beam is achieved by lifting a shutter on the Xenon light ... I'm certain there is no intensity change. Of course this is when the separate Halogen 'Fillers' come on too.

The Halogen 'Fillers' that come on when high beam is selected, are exactly that ... 'Fillers'. I don't think they are the same as on a Halogen only car and I don't think you could use them by themselves as a high beam bulb. I'm not certain on that fact but it appears to be the case. Maybe the lens/reflector and or bulb are different on the Halogen only cars. In a Halogen only car the low beam behind the (fish eye lens) remains on and unchanged at high beam but additional lights switch on. These are in the position of the Xenon equipped Fillers.

Yeah, great Kev but so what? The significance is that the car 'knows' what lights it has fitted....as in, there is software to support the shutter lifting and the initial high energy pulse. There may also be differences in the wiring loom.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to change the Configuration File for a D4. I failed to get anybody to confirm that it can be done or describe how it is actually achieved.

In practical terms without the correct software and maybe wiring, you could fit the Bi-Xenon light cluster and the warm up pulse would not occur and the shutter would not lift when you selected high beam.....thus rendering the lights useless.

I don't know what would happen in reverse ... possibly blow the Halogens on start up or something.

Maybe the wiring harness wouldn't even fit the different light clusters......how far back would you have to trace the harness to add in an adapter, etc?

As I said, I don't really know....I'd love to be able to do it....but I don't have a warm fuzzy feel about the task.

With regards to the 'self levelling' comments...I'd never even heard of it till I looked at TOPIx and noticed it listed for both my cars. I have no idea how that's achieved but it seems weird to mention it if it's only achieved by the air suspension, a bit like mentioning self-levelling cup holders ;-). But I don't know.

SE D4s definitely have headlight washers.....not sure of the relevance though, unless they have a heat sensor that makes them squirt if the light gets too warm.

Cheers,

Kev.

[jon3950]

Kev, I'm no expert either. Never done it myself but here are my thoughts, which probably won't help.

I would be surprised if the wiring loom is any different - simple economics suggests this. Can you compare yours? Are there any physical differences between the plugs?

Usually all the smarts for the operation of HID happen between the ballast and the globe - ie the ballast sends the pulse to the globe on start-up. I would expect that the ballast is contained within the unit, which is the usual way of doing it.

The CCF can be changed using an IID Tool etc, or the dealer can do it for you. I have never looked for the xenons using my tool, but would expect it is there. Will try and have a look tomorrow.

I have done it on a Subaru using standard parts and it was just a straight swap.

Have you searched the Disco4 site?

I certainly understand your cautiousness, but I can't see it being a problem. Of course its easy for me to say that since its not my car.

Cheers,
Jon

[101RRS]

People are talking different things which may confuse some people.

Celtoid is talking about replacing OEM Halogen lights with OEM Bi-Xenon lights.

Blackpack4 and myself have been talking about simply replacing low beam and/or hi beam in the OEM Halogen lights with aftermarket H7 HID kits - something completely different.

How the car responds to the different modifications may very well be different.

So if reading the good advice being provided, just make sure you what exactly it is referring to.

Cheers

Garry

[sniegy]

Kev,
The lights are physically the same. All the components are inside the lights, Shutters, Ballast etc etc.
What you will find is the loom for the headlights are different. That will be your limiting factor.
If you take say your R/H headlights out of each vehicle & check the wiring to both plugs you will see you are missing some wiring. (personally i would check to see if you have the same wiring in each vehicle?-there is no harm;))
You may have a vehicle that has been built with a Bi-xenon loom!:o

The vehicle is programmed into its CCF's what vehicle you have. You have a Halogen vehicle so therefore it is programmed, If you want a Bi-xenon variant the CCF will need to be changed.
I have heard of people in the UK & here changing head lights & re-programming & voila Bi-xenons you have.

Good luck & let us know how you go:D

[jon3950]

What you will find is the loom for the headlights are different. That will be your limiting factor.

Well there you go, who'd have thunk it. Wonder why they needed to do that?

[Celtoid]

Kev, I'm no expert either. Never done it myself but here are my thoughts, which probably won't help.

I would be surprised if the wiring loom is any different - simple economics suggests this. Can you compare yours? Are there any physical differences between the plugs?

Usually all the smarts for the operation of HID happen between the ballast and the globe - ie the ballast sends the pulse to the globe on start-up. I would expect that the ballast is contained within the unit, which is the usual way of doing it.

The CCF can be changed using an IID Tool etc, or the dealer can do it for you. I have never looked for the xenons using my tool, but would expect it is there. Will try and have a look tomorrow.

I have done it on a Subaru using standard parts and it was just a straight swap.

Have you searched the Disco4 site?

I certainly understand your cautiousness, but I can't see it being a problem. Of course its easy for me to say that since its not my car.

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Jon,

No I haven't even heard of the Disco4 site? Why aren't these people on this site? :-) I'll have a look.

I've made a few inquiries on this site, talked to a few Auto-Electricians and some Brissy based independents.

I'd sort of given up on it but after driving from Northern NSW late at night a few weeks ago ... admittedly I was tired ... I would really like to have Bi-Xenon on the new car.

Cheers Kev.

[sheerluck]

Kev,
The lights are physically the same. All the components are inside the lights, Shutters, Ballast etc etc.
What you will find is the loom for the headlights are different. That will be your limiting factor.
If you take say your R/H headlights out of each vehicle & check the wiring to both plugs you will see you are missing some wiring. (personally i would check to see if you have the same wiring in each vehicle?-there is no harm;))
You may have a vehicle that has been built with a Bi-xenon loom!:o

The vehicle is programmed into its CCF's what vehicle you have. You have a Halogen vehicle so therefore it is programmed, If you want a Bi-xenon variant the CCF will need to be changed.
I have heard of people in the UK & here changing head lights & re-programming & voila Bi-xenons you have.

Good luck & let us know how you go:D

From what I have read and understood, there is a different loom for the bi-xenons with the AFS cornering lamps, but the non-cornering version and the halogen version share the same loom.

[Celtoid]

Kev,
The lights are physically the same. All the components are inside the lights, Shutters, Ballast etc etc.
What you will find is the loom for the headlights are different. That will be your limiting factor.
If you take say your R/H headlights out of each vehicle & check the wiring to both plugs you will see you are missing some wiring. (personally i would check to see if you have the same wiring in each vehicle?-there is no harm;))
You may have a vehicle that has been built with a Bi-xenon loom!:o

The vehicle is programmed into its CCF's what vehicle you have. You have a Halogen vehicle so therefore it is programmed, If you want a Bi-xenon variant the CCF will need to be changed.
I have heard of people in the UK & here changing head lights & re-programming & voila Bi-xenons you have.

Good luck & let us know how you go:D

Hi Sniegy,

When I first started thinking about this and making some enquiries I was hoping along the lines Jon had stated, that the economy of scale principle would make the cars 'fitted for but not with' ... in other words wiring, etc would be identical until the very last few stages. Modular if you like.

I was hoping that with both cars on my driveway, I could swap over all hardware required to do the job. I hadn't banked on software issues and the possibility that the wiring loom issue may be more complex than just the last few inches being different, etc.

Anyway .... sounds like I need to dig deeper, while I still have both beasts :-)

Who are these people Sniegy ... LOL???

Cheers,

Kev.

[phl]

I like my D4's lights with its re-aligned no-longer-possum 4300K HID-converted fill-in lights.

Was the realignment of the fill-ins tricky and are they stable? From memory you were using shims of some sort around the fittings.

I'm considering doing something similar, albeit with uprated halogens for ease of use, as I've found the adaptive HIDs are pretty good, and I think I can dispense with driving lights.

[Graeme]

From what I have read and understood, there is a different loom for the bi-xenons with the AFS cornering lamps, but the non-cornering version and the halogen version share the same loom.I can confirm from 2010 wiring diagrams that the vehicle loom for the bi-xenon headamp assemblies is identical to the non-bi-xenon assemblies. It is only the adaptive lighting that requires extra wires and they are fitted to my 2010 D4 even though it does not adaptive lights. The AFS control module, mounted somewhere else in the vehicle (perhaps low on the passenger A-pillar judging by the wire lengths), probably isn't fitted to my vehicle though. I have even checked that there is power on the static cornering light circuits - just nothing inside the headlamp assemblies themselves.

Kev, just do it and get the CCF setting changed to stop them flashing on start-up.

[Graeme]

I'd have to find my earlier posts but IIRC a 2-3mm spacer was required. Yes it was a bit fiddly getting access to the mounting screws from awkward angles but spent probably not more than half an hour for the first one and less for the other and was well worth the effort. They still only have a spacer under 1 upper screw rather than both but still OK.

The improvement in light from the HIDs is enormous, providing a wide band from verge to verge and adding to the light directly ahead.

[jon3950]

No I haven't even heard of the Disco4 site? Why aren't these people on this site? :-)

DISCO4.COM - Index (http://www.disco4.com/forum/) - the Disco3 site by any other name.


I can confirm from 2010 wiring diagrams that the vehicle loom for the bi-xenon headamp assemblies is identical to the non-bi-xenon assemblies. It is only the adaptive lighting that requires extra wires and they are fitted to my 2010 D4 even though it does not adaptive lights. The AFS control module, mounted somewhere else in the vehicle (perhaps low on the passenger A-pillar judging by the wire lengths), probably isn't fitted to my vehicle though. I have even checked that there is power on the static cornering light circuits - just nothing inside the headlamp assemblies themselves.

Kev, just do it and get the CCF setting changed to stop them flashing on start-up.

That makes more sense, thanks Graeme.

Cheers,
Jon

[Celtoid]

I can confirm from 2010 wiring diagrams that the vehicle loom for the bi-xenon headamp assemblies is identical to the non-bi-xenon assemblies. It is only the adaptive lighting that requires extra wires and they are fitted to my 2010 D4 even though it does not adaptive lights. The AFS control module, mounted somewhere else in the vehicle (perhaps low on the passenger A-pillar judging by the wire lengths), probably isn't fitted to my vehicle though. I have even checked that there is power on the static cornering light circuits - just nothing inside the headlamp assemblies themselves.

Kev, just do it and get the CCF setting changed to stop them flashing on start-up.

Thanks Graeme,

I'm at an impasse though. I don't have the knowledge or tools to do the job. Especially the CCF requirements. LR in the Brissy Valley were the only ones out of all the people I talked to that were willing 'to give it a TRY' but that was with a caveat that they couldn't guarantee that it would work :-(.

When are you next in Brisbane :-) LOL!!!

Kev.

[Celtoid]

I can confirm from 2010 wiring diagrams that the vehicle loom for the bi-xenon headamp assemblies is identical to the non-bi-xenon assemblies. It is only the adaptive lighting that requires extra wires and they are fitted to my 2010 D4 even though it does not adaptive lights. The AFS control module, mounted somewhere else in the vehicle (perhaps low on the passenger A-pillar judging by the wire lengths), probably isn't fitted to my vehicle though. I have even checked that there is power on the static cornering light circuits - just nothing inside the headlamp assemblies themselves.

Kev, just do it and get the CCF setting changed to stop them flashing on start-up.

Hi Graeme,

Just more musing....

If the looms are identical, and you have found power (albeit with nowhere to go) at the connector for the static cornering lights, is it not fairly likely that power is supplied with high beam selection to the circuit that runs the Bi-Xenon shutter, whether fitted or otherwise?

If so ... what does the actual CCF do?

Cheers,

Kev.

[Graeme]

Kev,
The high beam power wire powers the shutter and the high beam fill-in globe in the bi-xenon assembly or the just the high beam globe in the halogen assembly. There is not a separate wire for the shutter.

It could be that when the CCF is set to bi-xenon that a higher initial current draw is considered acceptable whilst not acceptable for halogens or possibly for bi-xenons the power is pulsed very quickly for a very brief moment to make the globes start-up more quickly, or for some other reason that I can't think of.

Removing and replacing the headlight assemblies is very simple and quick once you know how to remove the grille and release the 2 headlight assembly retaining catches.

A dealer may not be able to change the setting with their equipment as LR bundle certain features into a market package but non-LR equipment will change the setting. My Faultmate is keyed to mine's VIN so wont work on your vehicle but an unlocked device owned by a LR specialist workshop would. If your dealer can change just that setting then that's all that's needed. I would be getting the settings changed in both vehicles after doing the swap.

In your situation you might need to consider the possible reduced salebility of an earlier SE fitted with halogens when they were fitted with bi-xenons and a buyer might be upset if they bought the vehicle only to discover later that the good headlights had been removed. Perhaps you might consider getting a s/h set from the UK for your new vehicle.

Edit: CCF - Car Configuration File. It is referenced by the various ecus when they need to know if a feature is fitted so that different actions can be taken for different options or the actual specifications of a feature, eg tyre rolling radius to allow the ABS sensor signals to be converted to a speed signal (RRS have approx 29" tyres whereas Discos have approx 30" tyres). The CCF also has build information that is just notational and not used by any system, eg towball fitted/not fitted.

[Torero22]

The car is self leveling so meets this requirement - the optional Bi Xenons in the D3/D4/RRS are not self leveling as the car does this.


[Holmes] - Dr Watson this theory sounds suspiciously incorrect !
[Watson] - Why, What do you mean Holmes ?
[Holmes] - According to pg 36 of the LR manual, it clearly depicts a Height lamp adjuster for the main lamps. It's a dial that lets you adjust the vertical focus of the lamps
[Watson] - What ! they are not automatic ! How dare they ...... Manual adjustment....

[Holmes] Perhaps this is a misprint, you know this is a foreign manual
[Watson] Yes, yes ... written in some foreign language by foreigners - what do they know
[Holmes] We need to investigate further. Quick smart Watson, don't dally...Come on man... Move on...
[Watson] Coming, coming..

:wasntme: Tor

[Graeme]

Once adjusted correctly the headlights will remain level regardless of the load in the rear because the suspension keeps the whole vehicle level.

The adaptive headlights, also bi-xenon, keep the headlights level when accelerating and braking and also turn left or right when the steering wheel is turned left or right but are still required to be adjusted correctly initially.

[jon3950]

[Holmes]According to pg 36 of the LR manual, it clearly depicts a Height lamp adjuster for the main lamps. It's a dial that lets you adjust the vertical focus of the lamps


That's for coils sprung vehicles, which we no longer get.

Air suspension is self levelling.

Cheers,
Jon

[Torero22]

That's for coils sprung vehicles, which we no longer get.

Air suspension is self levelling.

Cheers,
Jon

I will check with the RTA, technical support - Will post what I find out.

Holmes is very suspicious, He thinks someone may be arguing a point of view rather than a fact !

Tor

[jon3950]

I will check with the RTA, technical support - Will post what I find out.

Holmes is very suspicious, He thinks someone may be arguing a point of view rather than a fact !

Tor

I wouldn't waste your time.

If that's a point of view and not a fact, then mine and every other Disco 3 & 4 sold in Australia with bi-xenons and air suspension is unroadworthy.

[sheerluck]

I wouldn't waste your time.

If that's a point of view and not a fact, then mine and every other Disco 3 & 4 sold in Australia with bi-xenons and air suspension is unroadworthy.

Exactly. LR have been selling them in Aus for 8 years. Someone would have twigged by now you would have thought. :D

[Graeme]

I will check with the RTA, technical support - Will post what I find out.What outcome are you hoping to achieve? If you think that headlight levelling using the suspension isn't accurate enough then you need to do some night driving on low beam on a dark street which will confirm that the low-beam cut-off doesn't change regardless of the load in the vehicle.

[Torero22]

I wouldn't waste your time.

If that's a point of view and not a fact, then mine and every other Disco 3 & 4 sold in Australia with bi-xenons and air suspension is unroadworthy.

That's not what I meant - surely your model LR would have a mechanism for self leveling? I don't know. Does it ?

I am more interested on the requirements for after manufacturer modifications, as mine has halogen.

Tor

[Torero22]

What outcome are you hoping to achieve? If you think that headlight levelling using the suspension isn't accurate enough then you need to do some night driving on low beam on a dark street which will confirm that the low-beam cut-off doesn't change regardless of the load in the vehicle.

Good suggestion, I am surprise to find out that the higher models don't have anything special for auto leveling.

Cheers Graeme.

[Graeme]

Self levelling suspension is something special!

[rar110]

I will check with the RTA, technical support - Will post what I find out. Holmes is very suspicious, He thinks someone may be arguing a point of view rather than a fact ! Tor

Good luck finding someone in a govt department with some expert knowledge, and if you do then getting a definitive answer. The ones left who were not made redundant know better than to commit themselves to a position.

Maybe it's different outside of qld.

[101RRS]

I will check with the RTA, technical support - Will post what I find out.

Holmes is very suspicious, He thinks someone may be arguing a point of view rather than a fact !

Tor

If it wasn't so, D3s/D4s and RRS would not be ADR compliant for fitment with Bi-Xenons which they clearly are. If they were not complaint they would have not been given ADR compliance.

Take it as fact that the self levelling ability of the D3/D4/RRS meets the ADR requirements for Bi-Xenon - people with the right expertise have told you this a few times.

If you use the google AULRO search function you will find many of the answers to the things you seek.

Garry

[SBD4]

Tor, to help you understand a little better how the car does this. It has a height sensor for each wheel. If additional weight is loaded onto the vehicle (a trailer for eg) there will be a drop in the suspension bearing the weight (rear suspension). The height sensor will detect this and the suspension ECU will do its job and direct more air the rear suspension until the sensors read the correct level. Car is now level again.

Also, you will notice that, on cars that have auto levelling lights, they do a self test on start up, tilting the lights down and up. The disco does not do this because it is the suspension that levels the whole vehicle.

Being an engineer, you're going to enjoy finding out all the little tricks the D4 has in its box.

[Torero22]

Tor, to help you understand a little better how the car does this. It has a height sensor for each wheel. If additional weight is loaded onto the vehicle (a trailer for eg) there will be a drop in the suspension bearing the weight (rear suspension). The height sensor will detect this and the suspension ECU will do its job and direct more air the rear suspension until the sensors read the correct level. Car is now level again.

Also, you will notice that, on cars that have auto levelling lights, they do a self test on start up, tilting the lights down and up. The disco does not do this because it is the suspension that levels the whole vehicle.

Being an engineer, you're going to enjoy finding out all the little tricks the D4 has in its box.

Thank you dear sir - a technical description - yes I am a bugger for detail and can't stop until I get it. Good description and yes I am enjoying learning about the vehicle. The more I learn the more I am enjoying it !!!!

Thank you all for your patience with me.

Cheers
Tor

[Celtoid]

Kev,
The high beam power wire powers the shutter and the high beam fill-in globe in the bi-xenon assembly or the just the high beam globe in the halogen assembly. There is not a separate wire for the shutter.

It could be that when the CCF is set to bi-xenon that a higher initial current draw is considered acceptable whilst not acceptable for halogens or possibly for bi-xenons the power is pulsed very quickly for a very brief moment to make the globes start-up more quickly, or for some other reason that I can't think of.

Removing and replacing the headlight assemblies is very simple and quick once you know how to remove the grille and release the 2 headlight assembly retaining catches.

A dealer may not be able to change the setting with their equipment as LR bundle certain features into a market package but non-LR equipment will change the setting. My Faultmate is keyed to mine's VIN so wont work on your vehicle but an unlocked device owned by a LR specialist workshop would. If your dealer can change just that setting then that's all that's needed. I would be getting the settings changed in both vehicles after doing the swap.

In your situation you might need to consider the possible reduced salebility of an earlier SE fitted with halogens when they were fitted with bi-xenons and a buyer might be upset if they bought the vehicle only to discover later that the good headlights had been removed. Perhaps you might consider getting a s/h set from the UK for your new vehicle.

Edit: CCF - Car Configuration File. It is referenced by the various ecus when they need to know if a feature is fitted so that different actions can be taken for different options or the actual specifications of a feature, eg tyre rolling radius to allow the ABS sensor signals to be converted to a speed signal (RRS have approx 29" tyres whereas Discos have approx 30" tyres). The CCF also has build information that is just notational and not used by any system, eg towball fitted/not fitted.

Thanks Graeme,

I had a 52,000ft concept that the CCF is a 'Library' of what is and isn't enabled in the car. I didn't realise that it goes beyond that, including non-electronic configuration items, until you mentioned it.

I've always suspected, mentioned in earlier posts, that the CCF would/could be pivotal in the operation of the Xenon Headlights, otherwise there would be no need for a CCF upgrade. However was unsure to what extent.

Well meaning individuals that have discussed this, have possibly muddied the water querying about loom differences, how much the actual headlight module does and doesn't do, etc. I've worked in the aviation and defence aerospace industry for years and know that operators, even with a level of engineering authority, don't get access to all the data about their platform. So I guess there are similarities in that regard, that LR Dealers don't get the complete picture and it's only the intrepid owners/vendors that are willing to work with the data they have and reverse engineer the rest, that work stuff out.

So it appears that the circuit splitting occurs inside the light module, initiating shutter opening, etc and is not driven by a separate part of the wiring loom itself. That's very useful to know for folks that may be trying to spot an obvious difference.

I understand what you say about the resale attractiveness of my older D4 if it's had options removed, although I would always fully disclose this. Maybe, I should look at the second hand parts market .... it would probably give me more time to find a contact in Brisbane that can guarantee a result.

Thanks again for your help mate.

Cheers,

Kev.

[Graeme]

My wiring diagrams were down-loaded from Topix therefore LR dealers can get that info too and more info that isn't available through Topix as well as specific training provided by LR. However whether they've had the time or inclination to look closely at specific information or what's actually in vehicles means that they don't always have the whole picture. AFAIK a bi-xenon upgrade is not a dealer-fitted option so a dealer wouldn't necessarily know exactly what's involved. I can only guess at what different ecu processing occurs for the different lights but I can read wiring diagrams and I poke around my vehicle with a multimeter and oscilloscope and I have a diagnostic tool that can change values in the CCF.

[Torero22]

My wiring diagrams were down-loaded from Topix therefore LR dealers can get that info too and more info that isn't available through Topix as well as specific training provided by LR. However whether they've had the time or inclination to look closely at specific information or what's actually in vehicles means that they don't always have the whole picture. AFAIK a bi-xenon upgrade is not a dealer-fitted option so a dealer wouldn't necessarily know exactly what's involved. I can only guess at what different ecu processing occurs for the different lights but I can read wiring diagrams and I poke around my vehicle with a multimeter and oscilloscope and I have a diagnostic tool that can change values in the CCF.

Now your in trouble - fresh brains to pick :twisted:

1) Do some of you guys work for LR ?
2) Is the CCF file retrievable ? so that it can be printed or saved ?
3) How much was the tool ?
4) Now - Canbus - I have some threads I am following where people are reverse engineering the protocol specification of the info exchange occurring within this serial Bus. Anyone got a partial or full spec ?
Anyone got a interface circuit ? I would like to connect a notebook and log all activity to reverse engineer it if nothing is available ?

Tor

[Epic pooh]

For 3, the most commonly recommended tools are:

IIDTool (IIDTool for Land Rover - GAP Diagnostic (http://www.gap-diagnostic.com/products/iidtool.html)) - permits a range of functionality in a simple fashion, limited CCF editing/modification, somewhere around the $500 mark (depending on model you get).

and

Faultmate (https://blackbox-solutions.com/shop/) - most advanced tool, complicated (you sound like this one would suit you!), equates to the dealer system at least (or better I would say), does very advanced CCF editing etc. Cost for a D4 is about $1200.

There are other options, but these are (IMO) the two stand out options - IID tool for folks like me, Faultmate for the more advanced user / tinkerer !

HTH

edit: Tor, you might find this .pdf interesting (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/15405/Land%20Rover%20factory%20D3%20air%20suspension%20d escription.pdf) - it is the "lesson/training document" on D3 air suspension from LR; there is probably a D4 equivalent, but the general concepts are the same and the system is pretty much the same.

[Torero22]

For 3, the most commonly recommended tools are:
edit: Tor, you might find this .pdf interesting (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/15405/Land%20Rover%20factory%20D3%20air%20suspension%20d escription.pdf) - it is the "lesson/training document" on D3 air suspension from LR; there is probably a D4 equivalent, but the general concepts are the same and the system is pretty much the same.

Thanks Pooh ! You got any more Pots of honey like this ?
Do any docs exist for the D4 ? - Also looking for Wiring diagrams, service manuals, any documentation for the D4 at all.
The eBay guy has it for all models up to the D3, but not the D4.

Again thank you - some light reading before bed tonight.

Tor

[Epic pooh]

As a D3 owner, I haven't looked, but here are two suggestions:

Here's some of the LR4 (V8, yeah!) service manual Land Rover Workshop Manuals > LR4 (LA) V8-5.0L (2010) > Relays and Modules > Relays and Modules - Accessories and Optional Equipment > Communications Control Module > Component Information > Locations > C2778 (http://workshop-manuals.com/landrover/lr4_%28la%29/v8-5.0l/relays_and_modules/relays_and_modules_accessories_and_optional_equipm ent/communications_control_module/component_information/locations/c2778/)

and Disco4.co.uk is likely to have some helpful info as well.

Good luck with your learning adventure, I had many of the same questions when I first got mine ... very different vehicle to anything I'd ever had before (even other LR's !).

edit: heres a workshop manual from ebay - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-LR4-2009-2012-WORKSHOP-SERVICE-MANUAL-TURBO-4X4-/201060145303?pt=AU_Clothing_Merchandise_Media&hash=item2ed01e5897

[Torero22]

As a D3 owner, I haven't looked, but here are two suggestions:

Here's some of the LR4 (V8, yeah!) service manual Land Rover Workshop Manuals > LR4 (LA) V8-5.0L (2010) > Relays and Modules > Relays and Modules - Accessories and Optional Equipment > Communications Control Module > Component Information > Locations > C2778 (http://workshop-manuals.com/landrover/lr4_%28la%29/v8-5.0l/relays_and_modules/relays_and_modules_accessories_and_optional_equipm ent/communications_control_module/component_information/locations/c2778/)

and Disco4.co.uk is likely to have some helpful info as well.

Good luck with your learning adventure, I had many of the same questions when I first got mine ... very different vehicle to anything I'd ever had before (even other LR's !).

edit: heres a workshop manual from ebay - Land Rover Discovery LR4 2009 2012 Workshop Service Manual Turbo 4x4 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-LR4-2009-2012-WORKSHOP-SERVICE-MANUAL-TURBO-4X4-/201060145303?pt=AU_Clothing_Merchandise_Media&hash=item2ed01e5897)

:eek: OOOOHHHHH ! Thank you - You got to love Pooh and his honey pots. :TakeABow:

Haven't found these Gems.

Tor

[Graeme]

Workshop and electrical manuals for any specific LR model can be legally downloaded from LR's Topix site after paying a fee. Various fee periods are available ranging from 1 hour to 12 months IIRC, with the 1 day period costing 7 GBP the one I always use. Getting copies from any other source is illegal, may not be for your model or our market and therefore may be incorrect or incomplete. IMO straight from the horse's mouth is best and the only option for me so that LR can't say I stole or used stolen infomation for my Llams product.

[101RRS]

While after market HID quality of build is most likely not as good as the ballasts and globe in the OEM Bi-Xenon system both work in a similar manner. As I have indicated above fitting the aftermarket HID system to my Halogen system I had not issues whatsover with the cars systems and Canbus. The power wires that go to the ballast were plugged directly into the OEM halogen power socket, so no cutting required.

Now unless there is something radically different in how an after market ballast works compared to how the OEM ballast works, I suspect that when you install OEM Bi-Xenons into a OEM Halogen car I suspect that in the majority of cases they will work fine and no changes to the CCF will be required.

While there is talk of changes to the CCF being required has any one actually confirmed this from experience?

When I bought the trailer wiring loom to fit to my RRS I was categorically told that it would have to get it turned on at the dealer for the car systems to know when a trailer was fitted - however this was not the case and it worked straight off.

I would say just fit the OEM Bi-Xenons and see how you go - my money is that they will work straight away - though I wouldn't sell your old lights just in case they don't.

Cheers

Garry

[Torero22]

While after market HID quality of build is most likely not as good as the ballasts and globe in the OEM Bi-Xenon system both work in a similar manner. As I have indicated above fitting the aftermarket HID system to my Halogen system I had not issues whatsover with the cars systems and Canbus. The power wires that go to the ballast were plugged directly into the OEM halogen power socket, so no cutting required.

Garry

Garry, which ones did you use that plugged straight in - Link please....

Regards
Tor

[101RRS]

Just bought off ebay a couple of years ago so I don't have any links - cost $60. Later bought another set for high beams but have since pulled them out as they take 6-10 secs to light up and that is too long for me as I like high beam to be available when I need it.

Garry

[Graeme]

While there is talk of changes to the CCF being required has any one actually confirmed this from experience?People on Disco3.co.uk have commented that the bi-xenons tend to start-up slowly when cold until enabled in the CCF.

[Torero22]

People on Disco3.co.uk have commented that the bi-xenons tend to start-up slowly when cold until enabled in the CCF.

That dam CCF keeps pocking its head up - Can you verify if there is such a configuration parameter with your magic box of tricks, Mr Wizard ?

Tor

[Graeme]

Below is a copy of part of the CCF as shown by my Faultmate Extreme:

Interior and Exterior Lighting
Headlamp Delay Off 30s 60s 120s 240s
Corner On Light Threshold
Corner Lights Disable Disable Enable
Exterior Lights Reserved Not fitted Fitted
Daytime Running Lights Inactive Active
Scandinavian Daytime Running Lights Disabled Enabled
Canadian Daytime Running Lights Disabled Enabled
Police Lamps Disable Enable
3 Flash Turn Signals Disabled Enabled
Use Reverse Lights for Follow Me Home Disable Enable
Interior Light Flash Confirm Disable Enable
Interior Lights Not Active With Ign in Auxiliary or Off No Yes
Interior Lights on Approach Not fitted Fitted
Interior Lights On with Tail Gate Ajar Disabled Enabled
Interior Lights Off Delay
Cornering Lamps Fitment Not fitted Fitted
Auxiliary Driving Lights Not fitted Fitted
Adaptive Front Lighting System Not fitted Fitted
Xenon Head Lights Not fitted Fitted
North American Specification lights Not fitted Fitted
Static Bending Lights Disabled Enabled
Reduced Swivelling Inactive Active
Front Fog Lights Not fitted Fitted
High Beam Lights Not fitted Fitted
Side Markers Not fitted Fitted
Front Fog Lights Go off with High Beam On Disabled Enabled
Fog Lights Operate with Side Lights Disabled Enabled
Rear Fog Lights off when Trailer Connected Disabled Enabled
Lights On when Windshield Wipers On Disabled Enabled
Auto High Beam System Undefined Not fitted Fitted Undefined
Auto High Beam Sensitivity Menu Undefined Disabled Enabled Undefined
Auto High Beam Calibration Undefined North America, Canada, Mexico UK Europe Rest of world Reserved Reserved Undefined
Ambient lighting zone 1 Not fitted Fitted
Ambient lighting zone 2 Not fitted Fitted
Ambient Lighting zones Undefined Zone 1 Zone 2 Zone 3 Error
Colour options Undefined Option 1 Option 2 Option 3 Option 4 Option 5 Option 6 Option 7 Option 8 Option 9 Option 10 Option 11 Option 12 Option 13 Option 14 Error
Lights are off warning Default Reserved
Cornering Lamp Diagnostic Function Host SJB False True

Edit: The copy didn't do so well, loosing its formatting but you can get the idea.

[Celtoid]

People on Disco3.co.uk have commented that the bi-xenons tend to start-up slowly when cold until enabled in the CCF.



Hi Graeme,


I've just joined that site .... last night actually. So I haven't had a chance to ask the questions/read the info related to what we've been discussing.


Hope you don't mind me short circuiting the process (pun intended ... ;-)) but do the shutters work without a CCF change? I understand that the globes may be slow to warm up but that would not affect high beam, since as far as the globe is concerned, there is no difference. They are always on (when headlights are selected). I'm sure some folks could live with having to wait a few seconds for the low beam to come on properly....assuming we are only talking a few seconds. From that point on, everything should work as normal.


The shutter not operating is a different prospect completely.


Cheers,


Kev.

[Celtoid]

Below is a copy of part of the CCF as shown by my Faultmate Extreme:

Interior and Exterior Lighting
Headlamp Delay Off 30s 60s 120s 240s
Corner On Light Threshold
Corner Lights Disable Disable Enable
Exterior Lights Reserved Not fitted Fitted
Daytime Running Lights Inactive Active
Scandinavian Daytime Running Lights Disabled Enabled
Canadian Daytime Running Lights Disabled Enabled
Police Lamps Disable Enable
3 Flash Turn Signals Disabled Enabled
Use Reverse Lights for Follow Me Home Disable Enable
Interior Light Flash Confirm Disable Enable
Interior Lights Not Active With Ign in Auxiliary or Off No Yes
Interior Lights on Approach Not fitted Fitted
Interior Lights On with Tail Gate Ajar Disabled Enabled
Interior Lights Off Delay
Cornering Lamps Fitment Not fitted Fitted
Auxiliary Driving Lights Not fitted Fitted
Adaptive Front Lighting System Not fitted Fitted
Xenon Head Lights Not fitted Fitted
North American Specification lights Not fitted Fitted
Static Bending Lights Disabled Enabled
Reduced Swivelling Inactive Active
Front Fog Lights Not fitted Fitted
High Beam Lights Not fitted Fitted
Side Markers Not fitted Fitted
Front Fog Lights Go off with High Beam On Disabled Enabled
Fog Lights Operate with Side Lights Disabled Enabled
Rear Fog Lights off when Trailer Connected Disabled Enabled
Lights On when Windshield Wipers On Disabled Enabled
Auto High Beam System Undefined Not fitted Fitted Undefined
Auto High Beam Sensitivity Menu Undefined Disabled Enabled Undefined
Auto High Beam Calibration Undefined North America, Canada, Mexico UK Europe Rest of world Reserved Reserved Undefined
Ambient lighting zone 1 Not fitted Fitted
Ambient lighting zone 2 Not fitted Fitted
Ambient Lighting zones Undefined Zone 1 Zone 2 Zone 3 Error
Colour options Undefined Option 1 Option 2 Option 3 Option 4 Option 5 Option 6 Option 7 Option 8 Option 9 Option 10 Option 11 Option 12 Option 13 Option 14 Error
Lights are off warning Default Reserved
Cornering Lamp Diagnostic Function Host SJB False True

Edit: The copy didn't do so well, loosing its formatting but you can get the idea.


No I disagree Graeme, very good insight to the CCF. It didn't mention the self levelling Cup-Holders or tow bar though :-) ....sorry, couldn't help myself.


Cheers mate,


Kev.

[Torero22]

Hi Graeme,


I've just joined that site .... last night actually. So I haven't had a chance to ask the questions/read the info related to what we've been discussing.


Hope you don't mind me short circuiting the process (pun intended ... ;-)) but do the shutters work without a CCF change? I understand that the globes may be slow to warm up but that would not affect high beam, since as far as the globe is concerned, there is no difference. They are always on (when headlights are selected). I'm sure some folks could live with having to wait a few seconds for the low beam to come on properly....assuming we are only talking a few seconds. From that point on, everything should work as normal.

The shutter not operating is a different prospect completely.

Cheers,

Kev.

Well the engineer is at it again, all the control unit would be doing is to warming up the gas so that when the high beam circuit activated the Zeon would light up straight away.

Now at a cost of $1,400.00 to be able to turn on a configuration parameter to do that - I bet I could come up with a circuit to do the same - at a cost of max $50.

Another project for the list - dam !

Edit: I bet some one has already done it.

Tor

[Graeme]

This looks better
77173

[Graeme]

Now at a cost of $1,400.00 to be able to turn on a configuration parameterGet someone who has a multi-vehicle licenced device to change the parameter for you.

[Torero22]

This looks better
77173

Can we get a copy of all 14 or so pages ?

I am curious as to what might be there in them woods ! :ninja:

Tor

[Torero22]

Get someone who has a multi-vehicle licenced device to change the parameter for you.

And they will want to charge me $200 for the privilege ! :spudnikcoinflip:

[Graeme]

Well the engineer is at it again, all the control unit would be doing is to warming up the gas so that when the high beam circuit activated the Zeon would light up straight away.There is not a separate bi-xenon high beam globe for the bi-xenon. High beam is achieved by withdrawing the low-beam cut-off shutter.

[Graeme]

No I disagree Graeme, very good insight to the CCF. It didn't mention the self levelling Cup-Holders or tow bar though :-) ....sorry, couldn't help myself.


Cheers mate,


Kev.I could provide a copy of all the current settings (quite a few have been modified) except that I can't think of a way to keep the VIN private, although I don't recall seeing cup-holder specs anyway.

[Celtoid]

Well the engineer is at it again, all the control unit would be doing is to warming up the gas so that when the high beam circuit activated the Zeon would light up straight away.

Now at a cost of $1,400.00 to be able to turn on a configuration parameter to do that - I bet I could come up with a circuit to do the same - at a cost of max $50.

Another project for the list - dam !

Edit: I bet some one has already done it.

Tor


Hi Tor,


Maybe I'm mis-understanding what you are saying or the other way round?


Once a Xenon globe is on, it's on (It does need to heat up though to achieve max brightness). There is no difference in intensity between high and low beam, the shutter achieves this.....as in, it is a physical block that sits at the legal level for low beam and then lifts when high beam is selected, thus allowing more light to be projected.


However, LR have designed something in the system, which appears to be enabled by the CCF, to pulse the bulb on it's INITIAL start, not on high beam selection, to bring it to max brightness faster.


Cheers,


Kev.

[Graeme]

Here you go...
77174

You might notice a discrepancy between the minium rim size and the tyre size fitted.

[Torero22]

I could provide a copy of all the current settings (quite a few have been modified) except that I can't think of a way to keep the VIN private, although I don't recall seeing cup-holder specs anyway.

Graeme, Just create the pdf file and then edit the pdf file to block the VIN.

If you don't have pdf editing ability, then print - use black texta & scan.
then post

Cheers
Tor

[Torero22]

Hi Tor,
Maybe I'm mis-understanding what you are saying or the other way round?
***** Turst me I don't understand - still got the L plates, Lol - but I will get there, stumble, fall flat on the face, cough, get up & try again.

Once a Xenon globe is on, it's on (It does need to heat up though to achieve max brightness). There is no difference in intensity between high and low beam, the shutter achieves this.....as in, it is a physical block that sits at the legal level for low beam and then lifts when high beam is selected, thus allowing more light to be projected.

**** so this block is a mechanical mechanism ? I need to see a HSE - when is this Sydney Shingdig happening !

However, LR have designed something in the system, which appears to be enabled by the CCF, to pulse the bulb on it's INITIAL start, not on high beam selection, to bring it to max brightness faster.

**** Pulsing can be done by a circuit

Cheers,

Kev.


Thanks Kev, comments above

[Celtoid]

I could provide a copy of all the current settings (quite a few have been modified) except that I can't think of a way to keep the VIN private, although I don't recall seeing cup-holder specs anyway.


Hi Graeme,


It's OK mate, I appreciate the gesture but I wouldn't take my car to anybody who couldn't get this info themselves (in my area)...IOW doesn't have the correct equipment.


I do hope you are taking the **** back about my comment regarding the self-levelling cup holders :-) ... I just found it hilarious that LR list self levelling headlights as a feature when It's achieved by the car .... everything in the car or attached to, by default, is self levelling ... :-)


Cheers,


Kev.

[Graeme]

do the shutters work without a CCF change?Sorry Kev I missed your earlier post.
The shutters are powered by the same high beam wire that powers the fill-in lights in the assembly so work whenever high beam is used. They return to the low beam under spring tension when high beam power is removed.

[Redback]

The headlight washers have nothing to do with the legality of HIDs on the vehicle, they are there for de-icing/fogging the headlights.

Baz.

[Graeme]

I do hope you are taking the **** back about my comment regarding the self-levelling cup holders :-) ... I just found it hilarious that LR list self levelling headlights as a feature when It's achieved by the car .... everything in the car or attached to, by default, is self levelling ... :-)Geez Kev, here I was scanning the CCF report trying my hardest to find the spec!:D
I started doctoring my CCF report to upgrade the engine to a TDV8 but then saw that V12 was an option. I wondered if changing that spec might trigger some new ecm logic to give the ol' girl a bit more grunt.

[Epic pooh]

Redback, RACQ in one of their info sheets on HID's claim that ADR 13 requires HID fitted vehicles to have a light leveling system and headlamp washers to reduce the risk of 'dazzling' other drivers; they state that on this basis most HID conversions are non-ADR compliantn (no leveling or no washers or both). A random look at other sources seem to confirm that point of view. That seems not to be the case with EAS equipped Discos, as (from comments here) it appears all have headlamp washers and self leveling systems. I'm no expert, just what I've read, confusing topic/issue really, glad mine had them from the factory ! Cheers, Mick :)

[Celtoid]

Geez Kev, here I was scanning the CCF report trying my hardest to find the spec!:D
I started doctoring my CCF report to upgrade the engine to a TDV8 but then saw that V12 was an option. I wondered if changing that spec might trigger some new ecm logic to give the ol' girl a bit more grunt.

Worth a try :-)

[Celtoid]

Sorry Kev I missed your earlier post.
The shutters are powered by the same high beam wire that powers the fill-in lights in the assembly so work whenever high beam is used. They return to the low beam under spring tension when high beam power is removed.

Ok, thanks Graeme. Mmmmm ... so maybe the CCF doesn't do any more than the initial 'Warm-Up' pulse. You could possibly live with that!?

I'm still very much steering towards leaving the older D4 as is for sale but looking at second hand Xenon for the new one.

Cheers,

Kev.

[Celtoid]

Thanks Kev, comments above

#2 Yup mechanical shutter, like old nautical communications lamps. It sits at half closed normally and high beam opens it fully ... bulb intensity is unchanged. Older SEs have Xenon as standard, there will be a smattering of other spec levels with the lights and I believe all HSE (and V8s?) have them as standard.

#3 Yes a separate circuit running through a separate set of hardware could replicate the initial pulse ... but I figure finding a smart way to replicate the CCF or enable the CCF would be a better option. I'm guessing the car, via the CCF supplies a warm up current or a signal that tells the Xenon light module to 'ask' (via change of resistance or something) for more current, makes this work. I have no idea ... if I did, I wouldn't be asking these questions. :-)

Cheers,

Kev.

[Celtoid]

Redback, RACQ in one of their info sheets on HID's claim that ADR 13 requires HID fitted vehicles to have a light leveling system and headlamp washers to reduce the risk of 'dazzling' other drivers; they state that on this basis most HID conversions are non-ADR compliantn (no leveling or no washers or both). A random look at other sources seem to confirm that point of view. That seems not to be the case with EAS equipped Discos, as (from comments here) it appears all have headlamp washers and self leveling systems. I'm no expert, just what I've read, confusing topic/issue really, glad mine had them from the factory ! Cheers, Mick :)

I just don't get the washer thing .... Unless there is a sensor to detect heat or bug build up (:-)), what difference does it make?

Cheers,

kev.

[101RRS]

However, LR have designed something in the system, which appears to be enabled by the CCF, to pulse the bulb on it's INITIAL start, not on high beam selection, to bring it to max brightness faster.


Cheers,


Kev.

My aftermarket HIDs pulse on start just like the OEM Bi-Xenons so in some halogen vehicles the CCF may be enabled already.

Tor - on the original Bi-Xenons, the globe is on all the time as was mentioned and when you switch between hi/low a shutter moves to change the beam. What is the separate Hi beam on the halogen cars is also a Halogen filler beam on the OEM Bi-Xenons.

If you could get a H7 to H4 adapter you could put in aftermarket H4 dual beam HID globes (have a built in shutter) in the Halogen housings and have Bi-Xenon lights just like the OEM fitout.

I don't know why H7 globes are not made the same as the dual function H4 HIDs but it would be great if we could find some.

Garry

[Graeme]

The BCU switches power under programming control for low and high beam. Low beam could easily be pulsed by the BCU programming for a few milliseconds when it finds that bi-xenons are specified in the CCF. Maybe I should build a little module to initially pulse the power for my HID fill-in lights so they light-up quickly too.

[Graeme]

My aftermarket HIDs pulse on start just like the OEM Bi-Xenons so in some halogen vehicles the CCF may be enabled already.Either that or the ballast circuitry is smarter than some and pulses on startup. A test would be to supply power directly from the battery to see if they start-up quickly or not.

[Torero22]

Either that or the ballast circuitry is smarter than some and pulses on startup. A test would be to supply power directly from the battery to see if they start-up quickly or not.

Some one with a CRO could find out exactly what is happening on a HSE. Didn't you say you have a CRO or have used a CRO on your vehicle ? ;)

Tor

[Graeme]

I have a little hand-held oscilloscope which I could try to see what's happening for the expected very short duration. A son has just got a decent one with lots of memory for recording so that it can then play back in slow motion.

Edit: It might be a little difficult to switch the lights on and see the oscilloscope at a headlight at the same time.

[101RRS]

Either that or the ballast circuitry is smarter than some and pulses on startup. A test would be to supply power directly from the battery to see if they start-up quickly or not.

Maybe - when I had the HIDs in hi beam I could still flash with them because the initial pulse was quite bright and you could do it a couple of times.

Garry

[phl]

I do hope you are taking the **** back about my comment regarding the self-levelling cup holders :-) ... I just found it hilarious that LR list self levelling headlights as a feature when It's achieved by the car .... everything in the car or attached to, by default, is self levelling ... :-)

The self levelling is very important; we don't want to spill our latte, do we?

[sheerluck]

The self levelling is very important; we don't want to spill our latte, do we?

What, you and Kev are sharing one? :confused:

[Torero22]

I have a little hand-held oscilloscope which I could try to see what's happening for the expected very short duration. A son has just got a decent one with lots of memory for recording so that it can then play back in slow motion.

Edit: It might be a little difficult to switch the lights on and see the oscilloscope at a headlight at the same time.

If it has the memory function, just set the trigger & it will start recording on the trigger. You don't have to be be near it. It will take you a few goes, but eventually you will get it. Hint: use your son to help ! He might know how to drive the trigger mechanism.

Tor

[phl]

#3 Yes a separate circuit running through a separate set of hardware could replicate the initial pulse ... but I figure finding a smart way to replicate the CCF or enable the CCF would be a better option. I'm guessing the car, via the CCF supplies a warm up current or a signal that tells the Xenon light module to 'ask' (via change of resistance or something) for more current, makes this work. I have no idea ... if I did, I wouldn't be asking these questions. :-)

I gather in the D4, with the Bi-Xenon setting, the car sends a higher voltage spike to the bulb to enable faster shrinking and to achieve full intensity sooner. You see that in most modern HID cars, where there is an initial bright flash, the intensity drops to normal (or at least I've noticed it in the BMWs and Mercs, as well as mine). There were also several people complaining on the UK forum about poor halogen bulb life, which turned out to be cause by incorrect CCF, which when change back to no Bi-Xenon, came good.

Of course there is nothing to stop an after market HID kit to do the same thing, although there may be a slight lag as a capacitor charges (I assume).

[sniegy]

The Ballast is what creates the Spark so to speak to create the Arc to ignite the Gas.

Keep this open guys in the next couple of days if i get a chance i will play around & see if i swap a headlight & if it just works!!

[Celtoid]

What, you and Kev are sharing one? :confused:

Oh mine wont spill, I use a cap and a straw ;-)

[Celtoid]

I gather in the D4, with the Bi-Xenon setting, the car sends a higher voltage spike to the bulb to enable faster shrinking and to achieve full intensity sooner. You see that in most modern HID cars, where there is an initial bright flash, the intensity drops to normal (or at least I've noticed it in the BMWs and Mercs, as well as mine). There were also several people complaining on the UK forum about poor halogen bulb life, which turned out to be cause by incorrect CCF, which when change back to no Bi-Xenon, came good.

Of course there is nothing to stop an after market HID kit to do the same thing, although there may be a slight lag as a capacitor charges (I assume).


So .... I've just had a BFO moment (Blinding Flash of the Obvious)....

My wife's Merc has adaptive lights that go through a whole wiggle and wobble process every time you turn them on. Does the shutter on a Bi-Xenon D4 do the same ... albeit only open and close the shutter as part of a test cycle? This would explain the sudden flash? Or do they definitely pre-heat the bulb?

I can't try my older xenon equipped D4 right now as I don't store it here, as I have no room.

[Graeme]

Keep this open guys in the next couple of days if i get a chance i will play around & see if i swap a headlight & if it just works!!:BigThumb:Hopefully you'll be alble to change the CCF spec after an initial test asis to see what difference it makes.

Edit: I just realised that I could change mine's spec to 'bi-xenon not fitted' to note the difference in start-up!

[ytt105]

OK

Been there, done that!

I fitted ebay special H7 HID's into both low and high beam on my 2005 S model.

There is a definite warm up period on both. On low beam it doesn't matter as by the time I've moved from the parking space they are full bore.

On high beam it can take a couple of seconds to warm up fully. However, if you then have to dip for an oncoming vehicle and then go back up again, the delay is very much reduced.

I tried the CCF change but it did nothing.

I love them and would recommend the change to anyone.

There were NO problems with messages or warnings at all, just great light.

Regards

[sniegy]

:BigThumb:Hopefully you'll be alble to change the CCF spec after an initial test asis to see what difference it makes.

Edit: I just realised that I could change mine's spec to 'bi-xenon not fitted' to note the difference in start-up!

Graeme,
Was there any noticeable difference.
I can edit CCF files if needed.:p

At the start of the week i had different vehicles, now all i have at present are vehicles with HID's:eek::eek:

[outasight]

Hi guys, long time no speak on here!

I have a non-HID 2011 D4 SE which I fitted a Super Cheap Auto H7 HID kit to the low beams last year. There had been zero problems with anything until one light started turning off at random and then a week later the other one started!
The lights would always come back on immediately with a simple off/on of the switch.

I strongly suspect the bulbs as minor bumps seemed to trigger the faults. Super Cheap swapped the system over under warranty & what I noticed was whiter/brighter light output with the replacement setup in. Again, with this & the cloudy discolouration of the bulbs - I suspect the bulbs them selves.

A few observations of mine relating to comments throughout here are ...
These Super Cheap ones also "flash" to fire up(start), and I also understand this is just the requirement to "ignite" the gas.(ie. they will ALL do this).
I previously had a bi-zenon Subaru Liberty where they got to full brightness quicker, and I think the better quality units will, but it's a small sacrifice for low beam units. These Super Cheap ones can be slow when very cold.
Colour temperature is a product of a light's wavelength, and lower temperature(more towards yellow)= shorter wavelength which = better penetration of air/atmosphere. This is better for distance light & vision. Get 4300k which is closest to daylight. I got a 35W kit which I find 100% adequate for low beam, a 55W may be too dazzling for other cars AND you!!!

The Subaru's washers worked the same as my ones do & always have - a wash every so many windscreen washes, and that must meet ADRs. I also have to assume it's to do with diffraction through a dirty headlight potentially causing dangerous glare.

Good luck with all the other experimenting guys!

Les.

[Meken]

Thanks Graeme,

I had a 52,000ft concept that the CCF is a 'Library' of what is and isn't enabled in the car. I didn't realise that it goes beyond that, including non-electronic configuration items, until you mentioned it.

I've always suspected, mentioned in earlier posts, that the CCF would/could be pivotal in the operation of the Xenon Headlights, otherwise there would be no need for a CCF upgrade. However was unsure to what extent.

Well meaning individuals that have discussed this, have possibly muddied the water querying about loom differences, how much the actual headlight module does and doesn't do, etc. I've worked in the aviation and defence aerospace industry for years and know that operators, even with a level of engineering authority, don't get access to all the data about their platform. So I guess there are similarities in that regard, that LR Dealers don't get the complete picture and it's only the intrepid owners/vendors that are willing to work with the data they have and reverse engineer the rest, that work stuff out.

So it appears that the circuit splitting occurs inside the light module, initiating shutter opening, etc and is not driven by a separate part of the wiring loom itself. That's very useful to know for folks that may be trying to spot an obvious difference.

I understand what you say about the resale attractiveness of my older D4 if it's had options removed, although I would always fully disclose this. Maybe, I should look at the second hand parts market .... it would probably give me more time to find a contact in Brisbane that can guarantee a result.

Thanks again for your help mate.

Cheers,

Kev.


Have you tried all rover spares (?? I think that's the name) in Adelaide ? They seem to have everything for LRs

[Graeme]

Graeme,
Was there any noticeable difference.
I can edit CCF files if needed.:p

At the start of the week i had different vehicles, now all i have at present are vehicles with HID's:eek::eek:
I haven't had a chance to try yet but maybe in a couple of days.

[Redback]

Hi guys, long time no speak on here!

I have a non-HID 2011 D4 SE which I fitted a Super Cheap Auto H7 HID kit to the low beams last year. There had been zero problems with anything until one light started turning off at random and then a week later the other one started!
The lights would always come back on immediately with a simple off/on of the switch.

I strongly suspect the bulbs as minor bumps seemed to trigger the faults. Super Cheap swapped the system over under warranty & what I noticed was whiter/brighter light output with the replacement setup in. Again, with this & the cloudy discolouration of the bulbs - I suspect the bulbs them selves.

A few observations of mine relating to comments throughout here are ...
These Super Cheap ones also "flash" to fire up(start), and I also understand this is just the requirement to "ignite" the gas.(ie. they will ALL do this).
I previously had a bi-zenon Subaru Liberty where they got to full brightness quicker, and I think the better quality units will, but it's a small sacrifice for low beam units. These Super Cheap ones can be slow when very cold.
Colour temperature is a product of a light's wavelength, and lower temperature(more towards yellow)= shorter wavelength which = better penetration of air/atmosphere. This is better for distance light & vision. Get 4300k which is closest to daylight. I got a 35W kit which I find 100% adequate for low beam, a 55W may be too dazzling for other cars AND you!!!

The Subaru's washers worked the same as my ones do & always have - a wash every so many windscreen washes, and that must meet ADRs. I also have to assume it's to do with diffraction through a dirty headlight potentially causing dangerous glare.

Good luck with all the other experimenting guys!

Les.

I'd be looking at the earth and or connections for the HIDs to the old connector, I had this EXACT issue on my old D2, turned out to be a bad(loose) earth.

Baz.

[Redback]

Redback, RACQ in one of their info sheets on HID's claim that ADR 13 requires HID fitted vehicles to have a light leveling system and headlamp washers to reduce the risk of 'dazzling' other drivers; they state that on this basis most HID conversions are non-ADR compliantn (no leveling or no washers or both). A random look at other sources seem to confirm that point of view. That seems not to be the case with EAS equipped Discos, as (from comments here) it appears all have headlamp washers and self leveling systems. I'm no expert, just what I've read, confusing topic/issue really, glad mine had them from the factory ! Cheers, Mick :)

Yes it is confusing, but interesting too, I don't understand it myself, considering they are only fitted for the reason of de-fogging/de-icing, Volvo (and a couple of others)went with wipers as well at one stage.

As far as I'm aware, the NSW regs are different, requiring only a self levelling system (ie) suspension or headlights, I looked into this when I had my D2, although my D2 was illegal, if I had the SLS system of the D2 I would not have been.

I'm also glad my D4 was fitted from the factory:D

Baz.

[Celtoid]

Hi All,


So I did it, I finally got the chance to experiment with a set of Bi-Xenon headlights for my MY13 SE D4, which came with Halogen lights.


I stopped looking at this ages ago and was never convinced one way or the other that the outcome would/wouldn't work. I just wasn't going to take the risk of buying some very expensive bits of kit to then find I couldn't get them to work.


So, having now been given access to a set of Xenon locally and seeing them working in another MY13 SE, I can now unequivocally answer the question regarding the CCF and the part it plays in these lights.


The Bi-Xenon DO-NOT function correctly in my car. They are definitely NOT plug and play.


When selected, the Xenon part of the light starts up and then shuts down within a second or so. Everything else functions as normal.


After a bit of playing around I could get the lights to stay on, so they definitely have the ability to work properly in my car. This involved turning the lights off .... testing the blinkers, testing the parkers, testing the high beam before trying the full headlight. One of these combos worked and the Xenon part stayed lit and functioned normally with high beam. You could then turn the lights off and on and they would continue to work as they should.


However, turn off the engine, lock the car ... and game over Rover. Everything reset itself to the not working properly situation.


So the long and the short. They can work in a Halogen supplied car but something is not right. I'm assuming it's a CCF setting.


The last time I talked to LR about this, nobody they knew had changed over, so they were unsure of the outcome. I'm hoping over a year later that they now know how to change the CCF.


Cheers,


Kev.

[LandyAndy]

I have factory Bi Xenons.
On low beam they must be bright,constantly get flashed,only to get a return burst of hi-beam/fyrlyts,**** them!!!!
Have even been flashed early in the morning when the DRLs are running as the electronics say I shouldnt need my headlights,same story suck a burst of this!!!!!!
Andrew

[rufusking]

So the long and the short. They can work in a Halogen supplied car but something is not right. I'm assuming it's a CCF setting.




There are possibly two settings that need to be changed in the CCF.


Headlights Type = Gas discharge lights with auto adjuster


Xenon Head Lights = Fitted


If you can get your CCF read or an "As Built" CCF, check against these two values.

[Celtoid]

There are possibly two settings that need to be changed in the CCF.


Headlights Type = Gas discharge lights with auto adjuster


Xenon Head Lights = Fitted


If you can get your CCF read or an "As Built" CCF, check against these two values.

OK mate, thanks for that.

First port of call is LR themselves and then plan B is a mate of a mate with a device .... of course that means purchasing a VIN License. :angry:

Cheers.

[Celtoid]

Hi Guys,


Had to give up on the experiment.


I talked to several independents and they were all willing to try (on an hourly rate of course :D) to get the Bi-Xenon's working but none had ever done it before. I went with an independent that sounded a bit more knowledgeable in the CCF area and although their device recognised my car (by VIN Number) it could not even access files associated with the lights. $50 gone :(.


LR kindly offered to try and didn't charge me for the privilege but did once again caveat that they had never done it before. Their computer allowed their Tech to see that some changes had been attempted (even though I didn't mention it), so they reloaded the CCF software and started from scratch. They easily found the Xenon Fitted selection but couldn't find anything else related to that. Enabling this function still didn't produce a consistent outcome.


Nobody I have talked to can say/prove that there are or aren't any hardware differences between a Halogen and Xenon D4 (other than the lights, which come with shutters, motors and Ballast, etc., all in one module). So it left me in limbo.


The last option was a mate of a mate with a device .... but I'd have to pay $150 to get my VIN License/Code from the UK, which would put me $200 out of pocked on top of the cost of the lights ..... with no guarantee of success.


I folded .... :angry:

[Tombie]

Still got the lights?

[Celtoid]

Still got the lights?

Nah, I had them on lone from a mate to see if I could get going.

I gave them back and he sold them on.