Budget 2014

[V8Ian]

BEST QUOTE OF ANY ERA?

"The Budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero, 55 BC

So, evidently we've not learned much over the past 2,069 years.

[Kev the Fridgy]

Whatever happens I think we are all in for some pain Ian.


I heard one commentator the other day remark on why the government is so hell bent on balancing the budget so quickly, seems others would think some lesser taxes/cuts etc would balance it still but over a slightly longer time and without the hurt being so severe, other comments?


This thread will be a good one mods, blame Ian, he started It :wasntme:

[komaterpillar]

time for some popcorn and a coldy

[Homestar]

Doubtful you'll need the popcorn, I think this thread will be gone shortly.

[olbod]

Does it matter ?

The world is coming to an end.
We are all doomed, Doomed, I say.

PS: Somebody pass the cigars around.

[sheerluck]

Doubtful you'll need the popcorn, I think this thread will be gone shortly.

You don't think that people will be able to keep away from party politics, and instead just keep this thread as pure analysis of each budget change? :D

No, you're probably right.

[scarry]

OK,so lets start here.........:D

Nothing much will change,they will take from those that have it,and give to others that don't have as much...

Oh,and keep wasting it,wasting it,and wasting it.

And hopefully,get rid of some of their own perks once and for all.

Just my 2 cents worth......

Now where is that can of coke and bag of popcorn:p

[Homestar]

You don't think that people will be able to keep away from party politics, and instead just keep this thread as pure analysis of each budget change? :D

No, you're probably right.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think that will be the case.:D

[Mick_Marsh]

So far this thread has been about eating popcorn.
Wake up everyone. It's breakfast.

Great quote Ian.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Pay freeze for pollies:o

[ramblingboy42]

when is an outright lie not an outright lie?

just change the wording of the lie and its not what you said....

[Ausfree]

How do you know when a politician is lying??????????..............when he opens his mouth.:)

I'll sit back with my bag of chips and a coldie and see how this Thread goes!!!!:p

[trog]

Pay freeze for pollies:o

how about all elected take a cut in line with what is expected of those who employ them. lead by example ?

[sheerluck]

how about all elected take a cut in line with what is expected of those who employ them. lead by example ?

How about performance related pay? As in, you've been elected to Parliament on the basis of X manifesto, you've achieved 30% of those points, so therefore your pay this year is $Y.

I'm sure that there's a lot of us in the real world that have that as part of our packages.

[Bigbjorn]

Scarry, you have no idea how government works. government takes from those without and gives to those with. Cuts to pensions and parental leave payments to those earning $100,000 plus is a good example.

[Fatso]

We,l all be rooned said Hanrahan !!!!!

Come on people we still one of the lowest taxed countries , heres an idea how about all the folks who got a $900 handout give it back . :wasntme:

[scarry]

Scarry, you have no idea how government works. government takes from those without and gives to those with. Cuts to pensions and parental leave payments to those earning $100,000 plus is a good example.

Looking at those comments,you need to open both eyes.....:o;)

[Mick_Marsh]

We,l all be rooned said Hanrahan !!!!!

Come on people we still one of the lowest taxed countries , heres an idea how about all the folks who got a $900 handout give it back . :wasntme:
Fine by me. I never got it.

[Mick_Marsh]

How about performance related pay? As in, you've been elected to Parliament on the basis of X manifesto, you've achieved 30% of those points, so therefore your pay this year is $Y.
Great idea.

[Mick_Marsh]

Scarry, you have no idea how government works. government takes from those without and gives to those with. Cuts to pensions and parental leave payments to those earning $100,000 plus is a good example.
What was that idea that was floated a few weeks ago? 1% levy on earnings over $80k and 2% levy on earnings over $150k.
It was interesting to note the people in the 2% levy bracket were rather vocal in saying it would effect low income earners.
They must be right, after all, they are paid the big dollars.

[richard4u2]

We,l all be rooned said Hanrahan !!!!!

Come on people we still one of the lowest taxed countries , heres an idea how about all the folks who got a $900 handout give it back . :wasntme:
it should have never been given out in the first place if they wanted to do some thing they should have gone to Australian food processors and did a deal so their product would have been on the food shelf for half price for x amount of period

[Rover82]

How about performance related pay? .

Yeah...I like that, all MPs, Ministers and PM should have KPIs and their base salary should be reduced and thier compensation should be based on their achievements.

Their KPIs should be based on actual work done and improvements made benifitting the people of this great country.

I also love to see our ruling governments make decisions based on long term planning (like 70 to 80 years)..its just not us, our kids and grand kids have to live here peacefully. .



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[V8Ian]

You don't think that people will be able to keep away from party politics, and instead just keep this thread as pure analysis of each budget change? :D

No, you're probably right.

I fail to see why some people are so passionate about their chosen side of politics when, the biggest difference between the two majors is the colour of their ties. :confused:

[sheerluck]

I fail to see why some people are so passionate about their chosen side of polotics when the biggest difference between the two majors is the colour of their ties. :confused:

I agree whole-heartedly Ian. I detest politics, I really do. However, it's just another form of tribalism, "my lot is better than your lot"...smack to the face.....repeat ad infinitum.

[trog]

i guess i cant be a politician then . neither do i own a tie , i also wouldnt have a clue as to a proper knot. guess my big super pay out dreams have turned to dust

[Greatsouthernland]

Yeah...
I also love to see our ruling governments make decisions based on long term planning (like 70 to 80 years)..its just not us, our kids and grand kids have to live here ...

I think this is the solution, unfortunately it would mean a longer term than the 3-4 years currently, otherwise the next mob in would repeal things to suit.

When you consider the biggest economy that is supporting our economy (China), their political party has 10 year terms. So initiatives that are started actually get to run their course and they set agendas for the next 50-100 years.

Yes I know someone will say communist stuff based on what American propaganda has implanted in their minds (of course America is paradise on earth) but if you've been there (China) you'd see the middle and upper classes have more like what we aspire to have if you've worked for a living here. As for the poor, with 1.3 Billion people, it's going to stand out, however, 100's of millions of poor have been lifted out of poverty, perspective.

You can knock other examples on the planet if you like, but can't ignore that our system is flawed as we flip flop between fiscal awareness and careless spending, going round in circles, and I believe the incentive to work hard for gain is being eroded by impulsive levy's and socialism by means testing and selectively taxing those who work hard to get ahead.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but personal attacks on forums will never hurt me :cool: it's only 1 opinion in 25million after all...:angel:

[ramblingboy42]

a tax is a tax.

to avoid being labeled an unmitigated liar , I'll just call the new taxes 'levies'

I'm still really an unmitigated liar.

of course...the last lot introduced a carbon offset scheme.....we reckon it was a tax.....we told them.....we basically won an election on that lie...didn't we?

[Greatsouthernland]

i guess i cant be a politician then . neither do i own a tie , i also wouldnt have a clue as to a proper knot. guess my big super pay out dreams have turned to dust

Current pm can't tie a correct (Windsor) knot anyway...he does the lazy knot which considering his background is fairly piz poor...

[Mick_Marsh]

I think this is the solution, unfortunately it would mean a longer term than the 3-4 years currently, otherwise the next mob in would repeal things to suit.

When you consider the biggest economy that is supporting our economy (China), their political party has 10 year terms. So initiatives that are started actually get to run their course and they set agendas for the next 50-100 years.

Yes I know someone will say communist stuff based on what American propaganda has implanted in their minds (of course America is paradise on earth) but if you've been there (China) you'd see the middle and upper classes have more like what we aspire to have if you've worked for a living here. As for the poor, with 1.3 Billion people, it's going to stand out, however, 100's of millions of poor have been lifted out of poverty, perspective.

You can knock other examples on the planet if you like, but can't ignore that our system is flawed as we flip flop between fiscal awareness and careless spending, going round in circles, and I believe the incentive to work hard for gain is being eroded by impulsive levy's and socialism by means testing and selectively taxing those who work hard to get ahead.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but personal attacks on forums will never hurt me :cool: it's only 1 opinion in 25million after all...:angel:
Ah, yes. China.
The thing I admire most about China is they have tong term plans. When they introduce policy, they are looking decades ahead. Look at all the empty cities they built. Not one person living in them but, by the end of the decade, they will be full.

Our politicians can only see to the next election. Where has the vision gone?

They almost had it. That white elephant at Wonthaggi. We don't need it now, but we will. Quite soon if the weather people are right.

The next thing they should be looking at is swapping the mud burners in the Latrobe Valley for something a little more long term.

I'd be very interested in what infrastructure projects will be announced.

[Chucaro]

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think that will be the case.:D

I can give you a helping hand er....excuse if you like, I am good on it :D

Now, going back to the topic..........better not :angel:

[V8Ian]

Current pm can't tie a correct (Windsor) knot anyway...he does the lazy knot which considering his background is fairly piz poor...
They're probably elasticated ones from Lowes. :angel:

[Disco Muppet]

Current pm can't tie a correct (Windsor) knot anyway...he does the lazy knot which considering his background is fairly piz poor...

Ironic for a monarchist :D

[Ausfree]

The Windsor knot is the only way to tie a tie!!!!:) Thought I would mention that as a matter of great importance.:p

[Kev the Fridgy]

33 posts and this thread hasn't gone to the sin bin...... me thinks mothers day has everyone a little subdued............ On topic though, the Pollies pay freeze... OK I may be sceptical but I will wait and see the conditions before I applaud.... could be a something in the fine print to make it effective in 2020 for example..... yep I am sceptical

[bob10]

The Windsor knot is the only way to tie a tie!!!!:) Thought I would mention that matter of great importance.:p


I agree, if only I could remember. Not much need for ties, nowadays. BOB
:)

[discovery39]

33 posts and this thread hasn't gone to the sin bin...... me thinks mothers day has everyone a little subdued............ On topic though, the Pollies pay freeze... OK I may be sceptical but I will wait and see the conditions before I applaud.... could be a something in the fine print to make it effective in 2020 for example..... yep I am sceptical

Supposed to come into effect in July and is only for Twelve months.

[AndyG]

How about making Ministers and senior public servants subject to the same rules as Directors and Company officials,

Apparently a political party cannot. Be pinged for misleading advertising, they are exempt!

[discovery39]

How about making Ministers and senior public servants subject to the same rules as Directors and Company officials,

Apparently a political party cannot. Be pinged for misleading advertising, they are exempt!

Like Churches/Religion being exempt from paying tax......

[scarry]

Supposed to come into effect in July and is only for Twelve months.

Geez i feel for them,why not 5yrs and show they really care.
Should be for state pollies as well.

Article in The Weekend Australian,the mining tax has cost the govt. $50 mil in administration,and hasn't raised $50 mil in tax.....

I would love to see a break up of the $50 mil in administration costs.

[discovery39]

Geez i feel for them,why not 5yrs and show they really care.
Should be for state pollies as well.

Yeah, real tough times for them. NOT.:eek:

[Greatsouthernland]

How about making Ministers and senior public servants subject to the same rules as Directors and Company officials,

Apparently a political party cannot. Be pinged for misleading advertising, they are exempt!

Very good point Andy. Corporate Governance - every public and private company needs to abide by these sensible principals, it keeps everyone on their toes and is a tool to prosecute wayward directors and management.

Ironic the term Governance is used, but Government doesn't need to follow the same rules they demand of all other business...what's the word, um, hypocrisy?

[BMKal]

Supposed to come into effect in July and is only for Twelve months.

And at the end of the 12 month period - the "catch-up" pay adjustment will probably be retrospective. ;)

[incisor]

And at the end of the 12 month period - the "catch-up" pay adjustment will probably be retrospective. ;)

as they did in qld, said it was illegal and they just had to accept all that money..

wap

[Greatsouthernland]

I agree whole-heartedly Ian. I detest politics, I really do. However, it's just another form of tribalism, "my lot is better than your lot"...smack to the face.....repeat ad infinitum.

Like AFL... :wasntme:

[DiscoMick]

I'll take the pollies seriously when they rule that they can't take their own super until 55 or 60 the same as the rest of us, instead of taking the money as soon as they lose their seats in parliament.

[Chucaro]

I am flabbergasted, this thread still alive :eek:
I have to something about it.............:angel: :wasntme:

[Homestar]

And it was going so well...

PLEASE, keep the party politics to yourself. Until those last few posts, most were managing to do this.

Thankyou for your cooperation. :)

[V8Ian]

as they did in qld, said it was illegal and they just had to accept all that money..

wapWe couldn't have pollies breaking the law now, could we? :o

Isn't it amazing that they could introduce draconian and controversial laws overnight, but couldn't change the law forcing them to accept a payrise that many constituents would would be happy with as their entire income.

[Ausfree]

I am flabbergasted, this thread still alive :eek:
I have to something about it.............:angel: :wasntme:
Yeah, I'm into my second bag of popcorn. Something has to give eventually!!!:wasntme:

[V8Ian]

You should've got the family economy size, Jim. ;)

[Homestar]

Yeah, I'm into my second bag of popcorn. Something has to give eventually!!!:wasntme:

It has already given. I've deleted 6 of the last 10 posts.... Hopefully those concerned will back off a bit.:)

[sheerluck]

It has already given. I've deleted 6 of the last 10 posts.... Hopefully those concerned will back off a bit.:)

It's like dèja vu all over again, Yogi! :D

[Chucaro]

It has already given. I've deleted 6 of the last 10 posts.... Hopefully those concerned will back off a bit.:)

Bugger!! you did not got one single bottle of wine? :eek:

[Homestar]

Bugger!! you did not got one single bottle of wine? :eek:

Nope, not a single one...:D

[DiscoMick]

Very good point Andy. Corporate Governance - every public and private company needs to abide by these sensible principals, it keeps everyone on their toes and is a tool to prosecute wayward directors and management.

Ironic the term Governance is used, but Government doesn't need to follow the same rules they demand of all other business...what's the word, um, hypocrisy?

Governments aren't companies. Companies exist to benefit shareholders, but governments have much wider responsibilities to the whole nation and the world. Politicians have greater responsibilities than company directors, so the rules covering politicians should be tougher than those for company directors. For example, its more serious if a politician lies than it is if a busines director lies.

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[303gunner]

Nope, not a single one...:D
Probably got a whole case......... of whine.

[AnD3rew]

the whole pollie pay freeze thing is a joke, it means nothing to anyone except the pollies themselves.

I know it is an easy cheap shot to claim that the pollies are all overpaid etc. Knowing what equivalent private sector salaries are and having worked with quite a few pollies over the years in various capacities I can tell you most (not all but the vast majority) work their arses off, specially Ministers. In addition they spend lots of time away from their families, they spend an incredible amoiunt of time at community events etc. it is not an easy option and I dont begrudge them their salaries. There is lots of other valid stuff to attack about politicians before you get to salaries.

[Chucaro]

I was not aware that the politicians were forced to accept that kind of work :eek: :p Who forced them?

The again I know a President that donates 90% of his wages and refuse to live in the presidential home.
I guess that all comes to greed for power or money and for a very few work for the best of the country.
Other ways how you can explain that it is not greed on those that are prepared to be part of corrupted governments or political parties? What the love for the party that it is corrupted?

[DiscoMick]

I agree the salaries freeze thing is just a farce, and probably unfair to the pollies.
It just makes el cheapo headlines for lazy journos.
Last time there was a pollie pay freeze, the next time it was considered, it was raised 40% from memory.
The problems facing this country have nothing to do with the salaries of politicians, IMHO.

Here's some alternatives ideas from the public for fixing the budget:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/13/budget-2014-guardian-readers-have-their-say-on-reducing-the-deficit

[DiscoMick]

And here's a fact resource for cutting through the spin:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/factcheck/behind-the-2014-budget/

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[Chucaro]

And line with the forum rules my view about the 2014 budget is :censored:

:D I make it easy for the moderators

[seano87]

Biggest winners from the budget - has to be the ballerinas.

I'm still scratching my head wondering if I heard correctly.

[sheerluck]

Biggest winners from the budget - has to be the ballerinas.

I'm still scratching my head wondering if I heard correctly.

Nooooo, it'll be the meek. They've had hell of a time of it recently, the meek.

[Mick_Marsh]

So, did the cheese makers missed out this time round?

[sheerluck]

So, did the cheese makers missed out this time round?

Only if they earn more than $180,000, they drink, they smoke, and their donkeys take unleaded petrol.

He's not a Chancellor, he's a very naughty boy.

[George130]

So, did the cheese makers missed out this time round?

No that's dairy manufacturers as a whole.

[Chucaro]

I read that the cost of petrol will go up by about 1.5 cents per liter.
I bet that would be more than that on the pump, further more it would not surprise me if some "honest" outlets will start asking for the increase from tomorrow on :mad:

[Mick_Marsh]

Petrol is cheap. Try buying water.
I already pay more than the medicare rebate at the surgery.

Nothing scary for me. I'd be happy to pay the 2%.

[sheerluck]

Petrol is cheap. Try buying water.
I already pay more than the medicare rebate at the surgery.

Nothing scary for me. I'd be happy to pay the 2%.

Buying water? Why do that, when it falls from the sky for free?

Nothing to frighten me either. Fuel increase will cost me less than a dollar a week.

[frantic]

Petrol is cheap. Try buying water.
I already pay more than the medicare rebate at the surgery.

Nothing scary for me. I'd be happy to pay the 2%.
Yes we would be happier to pay the 2% the plus 180k earners do rather than lose family tax benefit A+ B , lets see a person on $300,000 will pay an extra $2400 for 3 years, whilst my family will lose about 4 times that :censored:
:censored: :censored: :censored:.
Its looking like my wife will be forced to work and our kids be shoved into long day-care. :censored: :censored: :censored:
But the cost of that will also go up putting further pressure on us.
So lets see you earn between $150-180k and nothing has changed. You earn below $150k and have a family and your going to suffer.
I pay about 30% tax ( a multiple of the family tax benefit we get back) but this will put us close to the edge.
But it's ok for all the mining companies to lose the MRRT and pay an average of 15% tax(and a 2 billion fuel subsidy ), just hammer the middle class , the poor and the pensioners.
The other welfare cuts mean my kids need stable employment till their at least 30 or they cannot get the full unemployment benefits for 6 months, so we are going to have a generation of Klingons! At home till their 30 :eek:
But wait theres more, part of the cuts where 80 billion taken from the states for education and hospitals, which has already been identified as a backhanded way of forcing them to ask for the GST to be raised/widened.

[Chucaro]

frantic, Ross Gittins is spot on when he said:
Only those people right at the bottom of the ladder have been hit hard – unemployed young people, the sick poor and, eventually, aged and disabled pensioners – but who cares about them? We've been trained to worry only about ourselves, and to shout and scream over the slightest scratch.

One of the things that I have noticed in the last 20 years or so is that the fair go Australian character has been replaced by the attitude "I am Ok bugger you Jack" :(
It is sad really, greed (for money, own comfort and material things) have take over compassion, mate-ship and care for the ones in need.

[ramblingboy42]

well, all I can say is read Joe's opening speech to parliament.....

and....listen to him now

[Pickles2]

Joe Hockey speaks the truth,...and of course, it ain't pleasant.
Of course, some, maybe many, will not believe him.
But, the simple truth is, past levels of spending, and where that money was being spent, was unsustainable.
People complain about having to pay $7.00 to go to the Doctor. How many of them smoke, enjoy a drink, play the pokies, have a coffee in a shopping centre, have a car, have a flat screen tv etc? No worries, good luck to them, but if they can do that, they can't complain about $7.00 to access a Doctor. Our medical services are up there with the best in the world. Paying $7.00 to keep them there is not a big ask.
That's just one item, there's many more of course, & like I said, there's many that won't agree.
I don't like cuts, any cuts, either, I simply bleieve they are necessary, for the well being of future Australians.
Nothing "political" about this thread either. I would just as happy if this budget was announced by Bill Shorten and Chris Bowen. There are lots of aspects of spending/costs in Aus that are unsustainable. best to try to do something about that now, before it gets worse.
Pickles.

[Tote]

So as Of this morning....
I'm not hit by the debit levy as I don't earn over 180K
Family tax benefit B was gone years ago as our combined income is too high so that doesn't impact me.
Fuel is going up 1.5 cents a litre, well better the money goes to the country than the oil companies, gas went up 10 cents a litre a few months ago and no one complained very much.
Some good spends on infrastructure projects, thats got to be good for the country.
As mentioned above going to the doc will cost less than a packet of smokes or a Schooner in Sydney on a Friday night, not a big impact to me.
Not sure about the Medical research fund as these things are incredibly hard to measure the results of in the short term, although it has the potential to improve the standing of one of our biggest export revenue earners, higher education.
I'll be supporting my kids till they are 25 unless they are working, best they get jobs when they finish school. Maybe medical research would be a good career....
It looks like they learned a lesson last time they took an axe to the public service, the job cuts go out till 2017, not all this year like in 1996.

I don't think I'm rooned just yet.

Regards,
Tote

[incisor]

sadly for the first time in a very long time we officially have an underclass with no social safety net.

pretty sad indictment on the current state of the nation in my eyes

[Pedro_The_Swift]

or a Schooner in Sydney on a Friday night,
Regards,
Tote

Gawd save me,,

$4.50 at the local Bowls club;):cool:

[Homestar]

While personally I won't be effected much at all by this news, I do think that once again, the low income earners and pensioners have been screwed yet again. $7 to see the doc, and a couple of cents a litre on fuel doesn't seem like much to you and me, but to someone counting every cent, it will make a big difference.

Higher income earners pay their bit, low income earners will hurt the most, middle income earners get away lightly, and of course the top end of town and big business are laughing all the way to the bank.

Same old, same old....

[p38arover]

I'm retired so it doesn't look like we'll be significantly affected.

The increase in the fuel levy is insignificant compared with the up to 20 cents per litre swing in fuel prices we see each week.

I've never agreed with the paid parental leave scheme and believe it should be scrapped.

People expect too much these days. We got $2/week child allowance, no first home owners grant, no child care assistance, no stamp duty exemptions, etc. but we did get 18% interest rates on our home loan.

[incisor]

People expect too much these days. We got $2/week child allowance, no first home owners grant, no child care assistance, no stamp duty exemptions, etc. but we did get 18% interest rates on our home loan.

yep..

but there was jobs for us as we left school or got booted out of home

today there is a 25% plus juvenile jobless rate (way way higher in many places)

i believe we can now expect the juvenile crime rate to go thru roof as many will no other way of putting food in their mouths..

for my money i can not believe this has been thought through

[Pickles2]

P38, you're dead right, we do expect "too much".
Welfare in this country is out of control, one issue that's been going on for years, single mums with multiple kids by multiple fathers, obviously with no idea of responsibility, just having kids & automatically claiming the support. Shouldn't there be some "rules" here?
I'd like to ask members what their views are on this, & I'm quite prepared to be flamed.
Pickles.

[incisor]

P38, you're dead right, we do expect "too much".
Welfare in this country is out of control, one issue that's been going on for years, single mums with multiple kids by multiple fathers, obviously with no idea of responsibility, just having kids & automatically claiming the support. Shouldn't there be some "rules" here?
I'd like to ask members what their views are on this, & I'm quite prepared to be flamed.
Pickles.

when i was born, the vast majority were taken, many times by deceitful means, from their unmarried mothers and placed with couples by forced adoptions.

go figure...

[nugge t]

yep..

but there was jobs for us as we left school or got booted out of home

today there is a 25% plus juvenile jobless rate (way way higher in many places)

i believe we can now expect the juvenile crime rate to go thru roof as many will no other way of putting food in their mouths..

for my money i can not believe this has been thought through


It is interesting as the unemployment rate is much lower now than when we had 18% interest rates if I remember rightly so why is juvenile unemployment so high now when the overall rate is lower?

As a manufacturer I know that we have not had a person under 20 apply for a job in last 5 plus years, probably longer.

Sometimes I wonder if the school system has kids expecting too much too early and as a result life on the dole is more appealing than working in a factory.

[frantic]

I'm retired so it doesn't look like we'll be significantly affected.

The increase in the fuel levy is insignificant compared with the up to 20 cents per litre swing in fuel prices we see each week.

I've never agreed with the paid parental leave scheme and believe it should be scrapped.

People expect too much these days. We got $2/week child allowance, no first home owners grant, no child care assistance, no stamp duty exemptions, etc. but we did get 18% interest rates on our home loan.
What was the avg wage when you had kids?
Now when you bought your block of land or house 30-40 years ago what was that compared to avg. wage?
40 years ago my father and uncle bought a 2br unit with harbour views for 2times average wage and sold it 18months -2 years later with enough profit to pay their deposits on their blocks in Sutherland and minto. Could you show me any 2 br unit that has harbour views for $150,000:D today?
How about a block 1.5-2 times average wage in sydney? Hint you'll need papers from the nineties. If I could have a block for $100,000 I'd be happy paying 18% interest as it would still be cheaper than the 6% on the same block at today's prices of 350-1 million dollars plus.

[Chucaro]

How it is measured the the unemployment rate?
A person that have a part time job of 10 or 16 hour per week is considered unemployed?
A person that because is in a part time job and earn well bellow the minimum wages is employed?
The reality is that poverty it is in increase and this budget does not look for the people in this situation actually it is punish them more.
Cuts in education and health are not a smart move, if we like to have a smart country education should be available for all and not for those that can pay for it.
I can see crime in the increase and if we keep going like this shanty towns will be in the cards :(
But then again who cares, "I am doing Ok, bugger you Jack" :mad:

[debruiser]

Agreed. Sounds like we're becoming america. Not cool if u ask me.

Sent from my Land Rover A8.

[incisor]

It is interesting as the unemployment rate is much lower now than when we had 18% interest rates if I remember rightly so why is juvenile unemployment so high now when the overall rate is lower?
really..

the juvenile rates?

not the doctored unemployment rate we have these days that doesn't include adjustments for the participation rate..

i find that very hard to believe juvenile unemployment was worse then....

was no 18% for me..

the banks wouldnt lend to me as i hadnt had the same job for 5 years so i got a finance company loan for my 1st house and it stayed at about 7% all the way through it.. sometimes you win, sometimes you lose...

[nugge t]

maybe they were doctored then as well, just a different doctoring formula but am happy if someone can manage an apples and apples comparison.

You did very well as I thought everyone was paying around 18% on home loans during that period. I know I was and I had people that I worked with who couldn't afford the payments and becasue of dropping property values couldn't afford to sell.

Still don't see as many kids in factories, not just mine but in the business's around me as well.

[Bigbjorn]

P38, you're dead right, we do expect "too much".
Welfare in this country is out of control, one issue that's been going on for years, single mums with multiple kids by multiple fathers, obviously with no idea of responsibility, just having kids & automatically claiming the support. Shouldn't there be some "rules" here?
I'd like to ask members what their views are on this, & I'm quite prepared to be flamed.
Pickles.

Pickles, I worked at Social Security and I can tell you that Sole Parent Pensioners were loathed by staff. This was because of the minority who were liars, cheats, and trouble makers. The majority of SPP's are women aged 28 -40 who were in stable domestic relationships that broke down and they were left with the kids. A sizable percentage work and are only paid a part pension. The ones you mention, multiple kids from multiple fathers are an urban myth now well cemented in the national psyche but in reality are few in number. Male SPP's are few in number and tend to get off the pension and return to fulltime work fairly smartly. Maybe this is a male thing seeing themselves as the provider not the full time child carer.

[Bigbjorn]

. but we did get 18% interest rates on our home loan.

I got 18% on my term deposits. Lovely.

[Greatsouthernland]

Agreed. Sounds like we're becoming america. Not cool if u ask me.

Sent from my Land Rover A8.

"...we're becoming America..." Copy that!

It's been happening for a while though - not related to current budget IMO. :bangin:

[debruiser]

"...we're becoming America..." Copy that!

It's been happening for a while though - not related to current budget IMO. :bangin:

Definitely has been. Related to the budget.... Well that's debatable, but I won't argue with u. I do however feel sad at the thought that we are heading in the same direction. I dislike that we do things 'because they did it' seems stupid to me, y not learn from their experience and reform a new idea. But I digress.
I still don't think that the budget is fair or that we are in such a bad situation financially. I agree with koshys thoughts on sunrise..... Yea I know lots of ppl don't like him, bit he's smarter than I am so....

Sent from my Land Rover A8.

[101RRS]

A question for the brains trust on the Drs Co-Payment thingy. In Canberra bulk billing doctors virtually do not exist and you would never want go to one if you value your life.

So I pay about $70 to go to my doc and I get approx $35 back from Medicare.

So with this new $7 co-payment will I now pay my doctor $77 and he pays the govt $7 or do I pay him $70 first and then make an separate additional payment of $7 to the Govts account, or does the $7 just come off what I get back from Medicare - all confusing.

Thanks

Garry

[incisor]

You did very well as I thought everyone was paying around 18% on home loans during that period. I know I was and I had people that I worked with who couldn't afford the payments and becasue of dropping property values couldn't afford to sell.

finance companies had fixed rates for the term of the loan on home loans..

i knew jack about it myself, just knew i had 3 kids and a wife i had to house and a place popped up i wanted to get into..

banks weren't interested as i was a fitter and had been made redundant a couple of times as workshops were shut down on the north side of brisvegas and only been where i was for 3 years.

the real estate guys let us move in for three months to save some more deposit so a finance company would take us on....

when i took it out all my mates rubbished the crap out of me as i was paying more than they were, they weren't laughing a year or two later...

roundabouts and swings...

[Bigbjorn]

finance companies had fixed rates for the term of the loan on home loans..

i knew jack about it myself, just knew i had 3 kids and a wife i had to house and a place popped up i wanted to get into..

banks weren't interested as i was a fitter and had been made redundant a couple of times as workshops were shut down on the north side of brisvegas and only been where i was for 3 years.

the real estate guys let us move in for three months to save some more deposit so a finance company would take us on....

when i took it out all my mates rubbished the crap out of me as i was paying more than they were, they weren't laughing a year or two later...

roundabouts and swings...

I worked with migrants in the 70's who could not get a bank loan for housing because of their short term of residence here and short savings period. Bank interest was in the vicinity of 6% and variable. The finance companies accommodated them around 8 - 9 % fixed. A few years on and they were laughing as bank rates went up and up.

[rick130]

P38, you're dead right, we do expect "too much".
Welfare in this country is out of control, one issue that's been going on for years, single mums with multiple kids by multiple fathers, obviously with no idea of responsibility, just having kids & automatically claiming the support. Shouldn't there be some "rules" here?
I'd like to ask members what their views are on this, & I'm quite prepared to be flamed.
Pickles.


Pickles, I worked at Social Security and I can tell you that Sole Parent Pensioners were loathed by staff. This was because of the minority who were liars, cheats, and trouble makers. The majority of SPP's are women aged 28 -40 who were in stable domestic relationships that broke down and they were left with the kids. A sizable percentage work and are only paid a part pension. The ones you mention, multiple kids from multiple fathers are an urban myth now well cemented in the national psyche but in reality are few in number. Male SPP's are few in number and tend to get off the pension and return to fulltime work fairly smartly. Maybe this is a male thing seeing themselves as the provider not the full time child carer.

Corporate welfare in the form of subsidies and tax breaks far outstrips the bludgers in terms of $ given out.

The diesel rebate for mining and ag use is one massive handout I can think of off the top of my head, and there are others including to coal fired power generators, etc. as well as individual industry loans, tax breaks, etc.

Lots of things that small business can't access (except the diesel rebate for farming) but the big boys can and do lobby for.

Now I realise some help is needed occasionally to enable industry to compete with OS based companies who are also subsidised and some industry help can work out cheaper than an entire workforce going on the dole, but some industries are very good at lobbying and getting big $ help from the Fed and State Govts.

There's a good argument that Government in Australia has become corporatised.
It is government for business, no longer is it an intermediary between social and economic interests.

[101RRS]

Bank Home Loans were regulated by the government up to about 1988 at the fixed rate of 13.5% and were then deregulated - home owners had to make the choice of staying with the fixed rate or going variable which was a hard decision as the deregulated variable rate was up around 18%. Though within a couple of years the variable rate was lower than the 13.5% fixed rate which just seem to fade away and the banks unregulated fixed or variable rates became the norm.

Garry

[nugge t]

Have just had a real life experience dealing with an Autralian worker in his mid 20's. We gave him a job he didn't have the skills for and were training him, giving him an opportunity.

Resigned this morning claiming his grand father is sick in T/Ville when we already know he is chasing his girlfriend to Bundaberg. The sting in the tail was his request that I sack him, AFTER HE HAD ALREADY RESIGNED. The welfare mentality is alive and well I fear.

Hopefully some of the new budget measures will keep him off the dole for the full period required as it will be some consolation when I think about the money we wasted training him.

[Ausfree]

Another question to the brains trust. The Commonwealth Seniors Health Card, of which I am a proud recipient. How does the budget affect it?????:confused:

Seems those who choose to continue working past retirement age or who are self-funded retirees are copping it in the neck.:(

I see the mature age workers $500 annual tax deduction is getting canned. Also the Seniors Supplement Payment.Along with the fact that mature age workers are no longer covered for accident while at work (introduced some time ago) I really don't think they are encouraging people to work past retirement age.:(

All this along with removing some of the safety net from under young people out of work, not enough thought has been put into the budget. It's just bash the workers and retirees.:(

As mention before on this Thread crime will skyrocket.:mad:

[460cixy]

Have just had a real life experience dealing with an Autralian worker in his mid 20's. We gave him a job he didn't have the skills for and were training him, giving him an opportunity.

Resigned this morning claiming his grand father is sick in T/Ville when we already know he is chasing his girlfriend to Bundaberg. The sting in the tail was his request that I sack him, AFTER HE HAD ALREADY RESIGNED. The welfare mentality is alive and well I fear.

Hopefully some of the new budget measures will keep him off the dole for the full period required as it will be some consolation when I think about the money we wasted training him.

We rissoled a bloke yesterday he did not want to be here and went out of his way to get the sack we ignored it as long as we could in the hope he would just quit knowing exactly why he wanted the sack

[incisor]

I worked with migrants in the 70's who could not get a bank loan for housing because of their short term of residence here and short savings period. Bank interest was in the vicinity of 6% and variable. The finance companies accommodated them around 8 - 9 % fixed. A few years on and they were laughing as bank rates went up and up.

yep, my experience was in 1978...

[85 county]

sheeesh with all these welfare cuts in australia, even more aussies will be moving to NZ

[101RRS]

sheeesh with all these welfare cuts in australia, even more aussies will be moving to NZ

Or better still - the Kiwis will go back home - that will fix the budget real quick.

[frantic]

Corporate welfare in the form of subsidies and tax breaks far outstrips the bludgers in terms of $ given out.

The diesel rebate for mining and ag use is one massive handout I can think of off the top of my head, and there are others including to coal fired power generators, etc. as well as individual industry loans, tax breaks, etc.

Lots of things that small business can't access (except the diesel rebate for farming) but the big boys can and do lobby for.

Now I realise some help is needed occasionally to enable industry to compete with OS based companies who are also subsidised and some industry help can work out cheaper than an entire workforce going on the dole, but some industries are very good at lobbying and getting big $ help from the Fed and State Govts.

There's a good argument that Government in Australia has become corporatised.
It is government for business, no longer is it an intermediary between social and economic interests.

Yes the government is pandering to the big miners etc. How else do you explain the average tax they pay of 15%, when to plug the hole in the budget all that was needed was for them to pay 20-25% tax, not even the 30% they are supposed to pay.
Instead they get a tax cut, MRRT gone, and keep their diesel discounts.
Now before anyone says "royalties ", do bakers class flour as tax? Does any office class paper, pens, computers and printing supplies as tax? So why should the one use item, raw materials, cost be called a tax?

[akelly]

The question that remains unanswered is this: if there is a budget crisis, an emergency if you will, why isn't Hockey doing anything about it?

This budget is a joke. Spending increases and so do taxes. All he's done is shuffle money around based on ideology. $250 million for school wizards while cutting education funding is a great example.

So what happened to "everyone sharing the pain" and "fixing the budget"? Nothing has been fixed and the only permanent pain is on the old, the young and the vulnerable. The wealthy get a temporary mozzie bite that most will avoid paying anyway.

Pathetic.

[akelly]

And for those preaching crisis, read this and present your counter arguments:

http://workinglife.org.au/2014/05/13/how-joe-hockey-concocted-a-budget-emergency/

[nugge t]

If the baker found somewhere to grow wheat, ploughed the land, planted the seeds, harvested the wheat and then carted it to the mill, that might be a fair comparison.

I think a good example of the excesses is the tug boat deck hands being paid $140k going on strike in Pt Hedland.

[Pickles2]

Pickles, I worked at Social Security and I can tell you that Sole Parent Pensioners were loathed by staff. This was because of the minority who were liars, cheats, and trouble makers. The majority of SPP's are women aged 28 -40 who were in stable domestic relationships that broke down and they were left with the kids. A sizable percentage work and are only paid a part pension. The ones you mention, multiple kids from multiple fathers are an urban myth now well cemented in the national psyche but in reality are few in number. Male SPP's are few in number and tend to get off the pension and return to fulltime work fairly smartly. Maybe this is a male thing seeing themselves as the provider not the full time child carer.
OK, Good to get some first hand info.
But "Welfare" will still have to be better controlled. You've read yourself, just on this forum, just today, how employers have encountered people who don't want to work, so they go on welfare. There's more spent on welfare than there is on health & education.
There's been various news articles about the inability of fruit growers to get pickers from locals, because they'd rather get the dole, so...backpackers do the job. You must've heard stories like this,...it's just too easy.
And the amount of people on "Stress" leave. I know a few myself, who could & should be working. But they're not. They're living their life on welfare, & having a great time. Now, I'd have to be fair & say, that if Social Security get a Docter's Certificate, then it mightn't be their fault, however no matter whose fault it is, the ones I know should be working. How many more of you know someone on welfare, that ccould & should ber working?
Pickles.

[Chucaro]

OK, .................................................. ........
There's been various news articles about the inability of fruit growers to get pickers from locals, because they'd rather get the dole, so...backpackers do the job. You must've heard stories like this,...it's just too easy.
.................................................. .................................................. .
Pickles.
I lived more than 10 years in small crops farming district and any person that appreciate and or value their own health will be very reluctant to work in the 90% of the farms.
It is funny that people "heard" the stories about people do not like to work in the farms but never heard of the workers that have to get out of them because the poisons used.
I witness a Dutch backpacker who was harvesting tomatoes, first the rubber globes provided (1 pair only) got holes in the tip of the fingers eaten by the poison. later on the backpacker lost his fingernails.
Locals will not work under that conditions.
Some bastards bosses seat in a tractor with air condition a filtration and tow behind the harvester implements with the workers without any protection :mad:
I would refuse to work under that conditions and any that would call me a welfare abuser if Iwas under the above situation can go :censored: :mad:

[Pickles2]

In what country & whereabouts was that?
Pickles.

[Bigbjorn]

Harvest work is generally not classed as suitable work as it does not pay a fair award wage. Unemployed can't be referred to unsuitable work. Too many farmers are lousy and hard bosses. Locals won't work for nothing for a slave driver. Also few unemployed persons are hardened to field work and rarely last a morning at occupations like digging onions and cutting cabbages and cauliflowers, bagging pumpkins etc.

[Sitec]

yep.. but there was jobs for us as we left school or got booted out of home...
today there is a 25% plus juvenile jobless rate (way way higher in many places)

There is jobs for those that actually want to work... When I got booted out of home, I went and got work damn quick!! It was not what I wanted to be doing, but I worked.. I now have toys in the shed, a lovely wife and a good life down under.... I left the UK not owning a house, owning a $500 car and a few other things as that's all we could afford.. I was working an average of 60hrs a week, and living in shared rented accommodation... and getting paid less than half what I am now.. I ran a night haulage job and moved back to Dads place for a year to fund the visa, shipping and tickets to Oz... Since we've been here we both had full time jobs within a week of being here. We own property, one really nice car, and one bonkers Land Rover (I hold the forum and its merry team of Rover nuts for this.. :D).. So, the point I guess I'm trying to make is that its awesome here.. Yeah, things have gone up but fuel is not $2.50 per litre, homes are less than half the price for the same in the UK... Treasure it, drive a boot up the arses of the youth and get them workin.. Stop paying out so much to those that sit on their arses and claim.. Hit the top end earner with the taxes, and look after our own... The last is crucial for Oz to stay as good as it is! Rant over! :)

[frantic]

If the baker found somewhere to grow wheat, ploughed the land, planted the seeds, harvested the wheat and then carted it to the mill, that might be a fair comparison.

I think a good example of the excesses is the tug boat deck hands being paid $140k going on strike in Pt Hedland.

The farmer PAYS for seed, fertiliser ,etcnot a tax;) the mill pays for both the unhusked wheat, and power , again not a tax, :twisted:then the baker pays for wheat and guess what not a tax:angel:.

Wow 140k and no holidays, no 38hr week, do the maths it's over 42per week and a lovely roster, I've heard 4 WEEKS on 4 off. BHP gave a commitment to holidays but changed their minds! This holiday would mean a manning increase of less than 8% which in dollar terms could mean 500thousand to 1 million dollars per year , which pales into stupidity when BHP is claiming if they strike it could cost $100 million a day!
So a 7 day strike would pay for holiday relief for 700 years :eek:

[bob10]

Well, I've had a bit of a think, and whether or not this budget is good for Australia or not, I couldn't say. How would we know?, politics in this country has been negative on both sides for so long, I can't see how either side has the Nations interest at heart. I think our political cycle is too short. Everything is short term promises, to stay in power. Just on the long term dole people, I feel most of you are out of touch with what's going down.


Having four children, & seeing them & their friends grow up , I can tell you this. The majority of kids out of school want to work. Some of them fall into jobs, some have to work hard at it. Some live in country towns, where there are few jobs, for anyone. OK you say, move to where the work is. If they don't have a net work of support, it is too easy for these to drift into alcohol, drugs, etc. A large proportion of long term dole people, come from single parent families, struggling with little family network support. They tend to develop low self esteem, and can slip further backwards, getting the attitude " no cares for me, why should I care for anyone". I have had first hand experience , with the friend of one of my boys.


He was thrown out of home, living in the street. We put him up in a caravan, out the back. Weened him off the drugs, [ maybe], met some of his " mates", I know what I am talking about. This budget strips away safety nets for kids like this. You take a drug addict off the dole for 8 weeks, with no intervention program, no support, you create a bigger problem. You think we have a gang problem here now? just wait.


This budget points the finger at what this government , through their ideology think is the problem. It does nothing to address the cause, or the root of the problem. And as for those who knock the Salvos, or religious groups working with disadvantaged people, you don't have a clue. Sorry, but all I have in my minds eye, is a couple of privileged fat cats smoking cigars on a balcony. Bob

[discovery39]

Another point of interest........
It all still has to pass through the senate.......

[ramblingboy42]

Another point of interest........
It all still has to pass through the senate.......

as soon as I read that, I had a laugh, remembering Paul Keatings' description of the senate , after they tried to block , I think , one of his budgets , as 'unrepresentative swill'....

[nugge t]

The farmer PAYS for seed, fertiliser ,etcnot a tax;) the mill pays for both the unhusked wheat, and power , again not a tax, :twisted:then the baker pays for wheat and guess what not a tax:angel:.

Wow 140k and no holidays, no 38hr week, do the maths it's over 42per week and a lovely roster, I've heard 4 WEEKS on 4 off. BHP gave a commitment to holidays but changed their minds! This holiday would mean a manning increase of less than 8% which in dollar terms could mean 500thousand to 1 million dollars per year , which pales into stupidity when BHP is claiming if they strike it could cost $100 million a day!
So a 7 day strike would pay for holiday relief for 700 years :eek:

When the miners can buy ore pre paged maybe you could be right. the point is that the baker doesn't shell out billions in exploration and developement.

i am sure there might be a coupl,e of people on here who work m ore than 38 hrs per week, get no holidays and dont earn 140k and aren't going on an another unrealistic strike. These blokes, as I understand it are deck hands, not tug boat captains. I am not sure of what level of training is required to be a deck hand but it must be damn high to be worth 140K a year.

[incisor]

There is jobs for those that actually want to work...

sadly that simply isnt true...

i might add that according to the latest figures youth unemployment went up 41% in one year

something is way out of kilter...

[bob10]

Another point of interest........
It all still has to pass through the senate.......


Hasn't this country come to a sad, sad , position, when we may be relying on some one like Clive Palmer, to save us from our elected leaders. I think it may be the lowest ebb in Australian politics. On a number of levels. I am disgusted, with the lot of them. Don't start me on that other mob, with what has been in the paper lately. Bob

[Roverlord off road spares]

We got $2/week child allowance, no first home owners grant, no child care assistance, no stamp duty exemptions, etc. but we did get 18% interest rates on our home loan.
So I wasn't the only one;)

[Chucaro]

In what country & whereabouts was that?
Pickles.

Childers district, Queensland.

[frantic]

When the miners can buy ore pre paged maybe you could be right. the point is that the baker doesn't shell out billions in exploration and developement.

i am sure there might be a coupl,e of people on here who work m ore than 38 hrs per week, get no holidays and dont earn 140k and aren't going on an another unrealistic strike. These blokes, as I understand it are deck hands, not tug boat captains. I am not sure of what level of training is required to be a deck hand but it must be damn high to be worth 140K a year.


No the it's the farmers Who spends billions in seed, fertiliser, irrigation systems and in lots of cases water fees to use the river, land management, harvesting equipment, and transport.
He then sends it to a mill who takes it to a baker.
Miners do the same process but claim royalties are a tax, they send their product to a mill, steel, alumina, copper etc which is then baked and sent to further customers.

I'll ask a simple question would you offer your employees something that would cost less than 1/36,000th of your turnover then back out and complain when they got protected action permission from the IRC?

[85 county]

Or better still - the Kiwis will go back home - that will fix the budget real quick.

most of them have, and look at the economy now

[JohnF]

It is interesting as the unemployment rate is much lower now than when we had 18% interest rates if I remember rightly so why is juvenile unemployment so high now when the overall rate is lower?

As a manufacturer I know that we have not had a person under 20 apply for a job in last 5 plus years, probably longer.

Sometimes I wonder if the school system has kids expecting too much too early and as a result life on the dole is more appealing than working in a factory.

I do not think unemployment rate is better. Today if you work one hour per week you are counted as Employed, and do not5 get counted in unemployment statistics. If employment rate was counted as it was when interest was 18% you might not say what you did.

Oh yes I know that some kids do not want jobs. yes they do expect too much. My son got an apprenticeship as a welder at a place with a very tough temperamental boss. After fuel--we live 75 km from where he works, he had $20-- left. Lucky for him we did not charge him board.

He has now finished his apprenticeship. Most other kids would have given up.

[olbod]

Me and the budget.
Well it wont impact on me to much as I can make a few adjustments.
For instance, instead of going to the supermarket 4 times a month I will go 3 times. With the round trip I use a quater of a tank of petrol.
So the money I save there will almost cover the new fee on my infrequent visits to my Doctor.
I can also cut out a few luxuries. I wont buy that bar of dark chocolate each week I shop, I wont buy a magazine of some discription each month no will I buy an online book every 4 weeks, I will make it every 6.
Little things like tomato sauce and pepper I can do without, I stopped buying salt years ago.
Been that long since I had one I hardly know how to spell biscut any more.
I will just have to put my head down, ignore the occasional hunger pains
and put a bit more effort into entertaining myself and getting thru each day, month and year.

I do not include the cost of fuel that I might use on trips or excursions, that comes into the realm of life style choices that I alone am responsible for.

The whole of my voting life I have been a faithful liberal voter but let me now say that if this person is still the prime minister going into the next election, I will vote for the opposition.

Sad to say tho that there are going to be many many more less fortunate than me.

PS: I have already decided that I cant stand a bar of that trumped up arrogant little dictator here in Qld, so next election I am going to vote for those other idiots.
Lets hope that they are both one **** wonders.

[DiscoMick]

The real problem with the budget is not the spending cuts, which are arguable, but the fact it doesn't do enough to repair the revenue side of the budget.
In fact, it cuts tax income by dropping the minerals resource rent tax and the carbon tax and lowering company tax. The tax on people earning more than $180,000 is peanuts and only temporary, the fuel tax rise is to be spent on roads, and the Medicare levy $7 charge on medical research, so they don't improve the budget balance. The irresponsible tax cuts of the Howard Government have not been reversed.
Its unwise to base a budget on company and income tax because its too narow.
The real answer is about the GST. The exemptions should be removed. The GST is a broad-based tax on consumption, so that's the fairest way to raise tax income. Other countries have seen this and raised their GST/VATs to 20 % or more. We need a government with the guts to take on 'real' taxation reform, not the timid fiddling in this budget.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[scarry]

The real problem with the budget is not the spending cuts, which are arguable, but the fact it doesn't do enough to repair the revenue side of the budget.
In fact, it cuts tax income by dropping the minerals resource rent tax and the carbon tax and lowering company tax. The tax on people earning more than $180,000 is peanuts and only temporary, the fuel tax rise is to be spent on roads, and the Medicare levy $7 charge on medical research, so they don't improve the budget balance. The irresponsible tax cuts of the Howard Government have not been reversed.
Its unwise to base a budget on company and income tax because its too narow.
The real answer is about the GST. The exemptions should be removed. The GST is a broad-based tax on consumption, so that's the fairest way to raise tax income. Other countries have seen this and raised their GST/VATs to 20 % or more. We need a government with the guts to take on 'real' taxation reform, not the timid fiddling in this budget.
Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

Agreed the GST needs looking at,but they haven't got the balls to do it.

As per my last post,there was an article in last weekend's Australian,the MRRT has cost $50mill to administer and hasn't raised $50mill.:(

[nugge t]

No the it's the farmers Who spends billions in seed, fertiliser, irrigation systems and in lots of cases water fees to use the river, land management, harvesting equipment, and transport.
He then sends it to a mill who takes it to a baker.
Miners do the same process but claim royalties are a tax, they send their product to a mill, steel, alumina, copper etc which is then baked and sent to further customers.

I'll ask a simple question would you offer your employees something that would cost less than 1/36,000th of your turnover then back out and complain when they got protected action permission from the IRC?

Actually I would sack the managers who allowed a deck hand to ever be paid 140K per year. Turnover is irrelevant to the discussion. What would be relevant is that costs are excessive by about 70k for every deck hand in my opinion.

What people seem to forget is that all of these excesses have to be paid for at some point and that point is a higher selling price which affects the viabilty of the project. When it gets too expensive, people simply buy somewhere else. As a small business manufacturer, I know this only too well. One more of my workers had to go today because he was simply too expensive. His idea of what he was worth was more than my customers are willing to pay but I am wasting my breath. This is a discussion we are never going to agree on.

[303gunner]

The diesel rebate for mining and ag use is one massive handout I can think of off the top of my head, ......

Now I realise some help is needed occasionally to enable industry to compete with OS based companies who are also subsidised and some industry help can work out cheaper than an entire workforce going on the dole, but some industries are very good at lobbying and getting big $ help from the Fed and State Govts.

How is it a handout? It is a road user's tax, and if a Bulldozer or dumptruck on a minesite never sees a public road, why should it pay the levy? Same for farmer and his harvester. Why should he have to contribute to road costs for that?


Sydney Ferries paid $750,000 fuel excise in 2012-13, do you think that would be enough to cover the damage they did to the road network? Railways also pay the fuel excise, directly subsidising their competition in Road Transport who do not pay full cost recovery for road infrastructure. Why should a business pay a levy for something they don't use to subsidise profitable businesses that are competing against them?

[frantic]

Actually I would sack the managers who allowed a deck hand to ever be paid 140K per year. Turnover is irrelevant to the discussion. What would be relevant is that costs are excessive by about 70k for every deck hand in my opinion.

What people seem to forget is that all of these excesses have to be paid for at some point and that point is a higher selling price which affects the viabilty of the project. When it gets too expensive, people simply buy somewhere else. As a small business manufacturer, I know this only too well. One more of my workers had to go today because he was simply too expensive. His idea of what he was worth was more than my customers are willing to pay but I am wasting my breath. This is a discussion we are never going to agree on.

Yes of course standard answer, put everyone on below average wage for full time employees.
Ignore the facts, like they are paid less than others doing identical work elsewhere, with no holidays compared to 6 weeks elsewhere.
Ignore the other fact that the tug boat engineers and pilots are going down the exact same path , just one month behind.;)
Ignore that the operators have agreed to give up one years pay rise to offset the cost.
As you said yourself , it's not a 50c operation to start up a mine and when you throw in the freight advantage along with over 25% of the world supply , it is a bit hard to "go elsewhere".

http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/mua-ready-to-strike-over-teekay-tugboats-eba

[DiscoMick]

Scarry, anything that News Limited publishes about the MRRT should be treated with the greatest scepticism, as it campaigned vehemently against the tax.

I think you'll find the MRRT was expected to collect about $6 billion over the next 4 years and cost $20 million a year to administer. The $50m was the initial setup cost to administer it. Collection was I read expected to be about $230 milion in the current financial year. The mining companies were able to write off big investment costs against the tax, cutting initial revenue, but it would have increased over time during the operating stages.
The real question is whether we Aussies think the very profitable mining companies are paying their fair share for being able to exploit the non-renewable resources which belong to us. Opinion polls suggest a majority of people think the miners are not paying enough. Its a matter of opinion.
I looked up several sources. This one had the best summary:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerals_Resource_Rent_Tax

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[scarry]

Scarry, anything that News Limited publishes about the MRRT should be treated with the greatest scepticism, as it campaigned vehemently against the tax.

I think you'll find the MRRT was expected to collect about $6 billion over the next 4 years and cost $20 million a year to administer. The $50m was the initial setup cost to administer it. Collection was I read expected to be about $230 milion in the current financial year. The mining companies were able to write off big investment costs against the tax, cutting initial revenue, but it would have increased over time during the operating stages.
The real question is whether we Aussies think the very profitable mining companies are paying their fair share for being able to exploit the non-renewable resources which belong to us. Opinion polls suggest a majority of people think the miners are not paying enough. Its a matter of opinion.
I looked up several sources. This one had the best summary:

Minerals Resource Rent Tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerals_Resource_Rent_Tax)

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My thoughts as well,but the projections, even long term for what it would bring in,in it's current form, are way off the mark.

[superquag]

How about a different GST rate for different classes of goods/services.
A low or non-existent rate for absolute essentials, such as fresh food, rising to higher rates for products that are convenience or entertainment or vanity spending.
This would put a 'basic' small-ish car at a low rate, a family style car in the middle, an AWD/SUV with every conceivable gizmo right at the top... in the same classification as jewellery. You can creatively do a lot with such brackets... a Deefer-type truck can be sensibly placed in a lower bracket than RR-sport, a diamond encrusted 'bling' watch up in the top rate, whilst the identical movement under a utilitarian dial would be much lower down the scale.
Best of al, you could do it at the wholesale level, where lots of 'office work' is done anyway, as compared to retail where the business owner wastes so much time & effort is charging GST...and claiming it back or passing it one to next in line.... as did his supplier, and his importer...



What was that?- we used to have such a tax? the one that made toys expensive and essentials cheap... Never !!!:wasntme:

No wonder they changed it the present style that makes useless toys dirt cheap, and burdens the poor who need the essentials...

[nugge t]

Actually it ihas nothing to do with average wages but people being paid way above what a job is actaully worth. Thje standard line is yours as regurgitated on the union line time after time.

When these guys are on the dole or out of a job, they may start to understand. Sadly many will never come to understand that people being paid significantly more than a job is worth will catch up with everyone sooner or later.


Yes of course standard answer, put everyone on below average wage for full time employees.
Ignore the facts, like they are paid less than others doing identical work elsewhere, with no holidays compared to 6 weeks elsewhere.
Ignore the other fact that the tug boat engineers and pilots are going down the exact same path , just one month behind.;)
Ignore that the operators have agreed to give up one years pay rise to offset the cost.
As you said yourself , it's not a 50c operation to start up a mine and when you throw in the freight advantage along with over 25% of the world supply , it is a bit hard to "go elsewhere".

MUA ready to strike over Teekay tugboats EBA | Mining Australia (http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/mua-ready-to-strike-over-teekay-tugboats-eba)

[bob10]

sadly that simply isnt true...

i might add that according to the latest figures youth unemployment went up 41% in one year

something is way out of kilter...


X2. Any one who says there is a lot of work out there for school leavers, just doesn't know. Now apprentices are being made to take a $20,000 loan, to buy tools. Only those from the poor end of town, obviously. And they are the kids who will not be able to afford to go to Uni. Classless society? This government will create a lower class. Perhaps not their intention, but.... Bob

[bob10]

The BBC's take on the budget, Bob


BBC News - Tony Abbott's Australian budget: Brave or foolhardy? (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27388342)

[nugge t]

X2. Any one who says there is a lot of work out there for school leavers, just doesn't know. Now apprentices are being made to take a $20,000 loan, to buy tools. Only those from the poor end of town, obviously. And they are the kids who will not be able to afford to go to Uni. Classless society? This government will create a lower class. Perhaps not their intention, but.... Bob

Jeez there is some crap stuff in there Wayne Swan would be proud of.

I haven't had a school leaver apply for a job in our factory for longer than I can remember.

Not only kids from the "poor end of town" go into trades. My son is a plumber and most of his mates are too most of them went to private schools.

The kids from the poor end of town go to Pt Hedland and earn 140K a year as deck hands on tug boats and then go on strike for more. The kids who spend 4 years at uni become teachers and such and are lucky to earn 60k. 140k a year is many years down the track for them.

The system is way out of whack in my humble opinion.

[BMKal]

X2. Any one who says there is a lot of work out there for school leavers, just doesn't know. Now apprentices are being made to take a $20,000 loan, to buy tools. Only those from the poor end of town, obviously. And they are the kids who will not be able to afford to go to Uni. Classless society? This government will create a lower class. Perhaps not their intention, but.... Bob

Nothing new about that Bob. My young bloke had to pay back his employer for the tools he needed - and were paid for by his employer - when he started his apprenticeship as a diesel fitter. He likes good quality tools - so chose from the better suppliers and racked up quite a tooling bill at the time. :o At the same time, he was paying me back for a car that I had bought him.

He has now completed his apprenticeship, has had no trouble finding work, and has recently bought his own house. He also has a Disco 2. :p

I accept that in some parts of the country it is not as easy for the young ones to find work .................. but .....................

I left home at an early age - there was very little opportunity in the area I was living in at the time, so I moved. Have never had any trouble finding work throughout my life - sometimes it was work that I did not particularly like, but it was work. My kids have done the same - both have been employed since leaving school - sometimes in jobs that they hated until something better came along, but eventually where they wanted to be.

Just out of interest - I've actually worked with the tug boats out of Port Hedland. For what the deckhands actually do (it's a VERY "cruisy" job) - I'd love to be paid $140K. Though they do have what I believe to be a fair claim for annual leave entitlement. The fact that they work an even time roster (4 on : 4 off or 6 on : 6 off or whatever roster they are on) should not preclude them from annual leave entitlements - there are plenty of others on similar rosters who also have annual leave on top of their roster cycle (been there myself) - so I don't think that the decky's should be treated any different in this respect.

[bob10]

Jeez there is some crap stuff in there Wayne Swan would be proud of.

I haven't had a school leaver apply for a job in our factory for longer than I can remember.

Not only kids from the "poor end of town" go into trades. My son is a plumber and most of his mates are too most of them went to private schools.

The kids from the poor end of town go to Pt Hedland and earn 140K a year as deck hands on tug boats and then go on strike for more. The kids who spend 4 years at uni become teachers and such and are lucky to earn 60k. 140k a year is many years down the track for them.

The system is way out of whack in my humble opinion.


I think you should take take your blinkers off, and stop this fixation on Port Hedland. I have come into contact with kids from lower socio-economic families [think that's the buzzword] through junior rugby league and spoken to their parents, a great many who are single parents. Many are finding it hard, and these parents are working. They bring their kids to football to try to keep them out of trouble, and most times it works. For some kids, it gives boys a strong male role model, lacking when you don't have a father. They would jump at the chance to work on those tugs. Who wouldn't.


University normally is not an option for them. Labouring, or ideally, a trade is. Their parents, normally through no fault of their own, barely have enough money to make ends meet. Working at night as a cleaner doesn't bring much cash in. And that brings another problem, who supervises the kids whilst the parent works at night, if there is no family network? You want to get away from Hedland, for a while. Australia's a big place. Fixating on a small group of workers at Hedland surely can't be healthy. BTW, my daughter is in her first year of teaching. She can now start paying back the large Hex debt she accrued, one which our political leaders were fortunate enough not to accrue, in the main. Yes, there is something out of whack, as you put it. And it can only get worse. Bob

[Bigbjorn]

Nugge t, if you think seamen are unskilled, I suggest you get out there and try passing a tow in a gale and heavy seas, or renewing failed rigging in similar circumstances up a mast or derrick. They deserve what they get and have achieved over more than a century of industrial struggle.

[nugge t]

I think you should take take your blinkers off, and stop this fixation on Port Hedland. I have come into contact with kids from lower socio-economic families [think that's the buzzword] through junior rugby league and spoken to their parents, a great many who are single parents. Many are finding it hard, and these parents are working. They bring their kids to football to try to keep them out of trouble, and most times it works. For some kids, it gives boys a strong male role model, lacking when you don't have a father. They would jump at the chance to work on those tugs. Who wouldn't.


University normally is not an option for them. Labouring, or ideally, a trade is. Their parents, normally through no fault of their own, barely have enough money to make ends meet. Working at night as a cleaner doesn't bring much cash in. And that brings another problem, who supervises the kids whilst the parent works at night, if there is no family network? You want to get away from Hedland, for a while. Australia's a big place. Fixating on a small group of workers at Hedland surely can't be healthy. BTW, my daughter is in her first year of teaching. She can now start paying back the large Hex debt she accrued, one which our political leaders were fortunate enough not to accrue, in the main. Yes, there is something out of whack, as you put it. And it can only get worse. Bob

Actually I don't live in Hedland although I have been there over the years and I don't live by the sea either. But I do own a small manufacturing business in an industrial estate in Brisbane and have been employing people in the region for 20 years so I reckon some of my experience is local and current.

This constant class warfare that is endlessly dragged out is just so counter productive and it has just happened again.

Tanya Pliberwhatever was arguing the other night that the rise in uni fees was worse for low soci economic groups and would stop kids going to uni. I must be missing something but I thought the charges were the same for all kids and once you got your degree, payrates were not weighted by postcode.

I have no problem with Hex..in fact I have 2 daughter who are paying it and neither of them are whinging about it.

Everyone is so busy trying to make excuses for everything that happens in their life...sometimes you have take some responsibility and man up. I was from a single parent family so don't bother telling me I don't know what I am talking about.

Mate half of Brisbane would jump at the chance to earn 140K with the propect of jamming it up even more. I would still like to know the training/skill requirement to be a tug boat deck hand.

The engineering place across the road from me looked for an apprentice 18 months ago and had 3 applicants. He was expecting a line of kids stretching down the road. Obviously the walk from the train station to Strathpine centrelink is shorter than it is to Brendale industrial estate.

Words can be easy at footy training but it takes a bit more ticker to get off the butt and get a job.

[nugge t]

Nugge t, if you think seamen are unskilled, I suggest you get out there and try passing a tow in a gale and heavy seas, or renewing failed rigging in similar circumstances up a mast or derrick. They deserve what they get and have achieved over more than a century of industrial struggle.

And that justifies earning twice as much as a school teacher who has spent 4 years at uni???

I am sure there are a myriad of WH&S as well as award conditions to keep them safe. Do they have masts on a tug boat? Sorry but I am not a nautical person....

My beef is the relativity of it all. To me it is sending all the wrong messages to kids.

[Pickles2]

I think that this Budget is absolutely right for the times.
I'm no financial expert, there are VERY few of them, but there's no doubt that (IMHO of course) the spending & wastage under the previous Govt could not continue.
I will be worse off, most people will be, to some extent, I suppose, but I'm happy with it, I feel safer, more confident for the future of Australia, & that of my children, knowing that the first steps towards the foundations of a financially sound Australia are being taken.
Pickles.

[Mick_Marsh]

And that justifies earning twice as much as a school teacher who has spent 4 years at uni???

I am sure there are a myriad of WH&S as well as award conditions to keep them safe. Do they have masts on a tug boat? Sorry but I am not a nautical person....

My beef is the relativity of it all. To me it is sending all the wrong messages to kids.
I know quite a few school teachers. I'm tipping they'd rather be school teachers than deck hands.
Oh, and and looking at the school teachers I know, your comparison of pay rates appears a little out of whack.

The engineering place across the road from me looked for an apprentice 18 months ago and had 3 applicants. He was expecting a line of kids stretching down the road. Obviously the walk from the train station to Strathpine centrelink is shorter than it is to Brendale industrial estate.
More than likely the remuneration and conditions of the position were rather poor if it didn't attract many applicants. I have not accepted jobs because employers were "taking advantage".

[nugge t]

I know quite a few school teachers. I'm tipping they'd rather be school teachers than deck hands.
Oh, and and looking at the school teachers I know, your comparison of pay rates appears a little out of whack.

More than likely the remuneration and conditions of the position were rather poor if it didn't attract many applicants. I have not accepted jobs because employers were "taking advantage".

The constant boss bashing really wears very thin. The place has been operating with a very low staff turn for at least 20 years. He hasnt had any trouble filling postions for trades guys so I think your slander might be misplaced.

It always reminds me of the ..I think it was 60 Minutes episode..were young unemployed were whinging about no work etc etc and were offered jobs on one of the island resorts in north Qld. Took the free trip but horror upon horror, the uniform was purple and the young girl just said..I don't wear purple. I think the bloke needed a hair cut but that was too much of a sacrafice for full time employment as well.

I know a couple of young school teachers who are not earning more than 60K but still did their 4 years. And I reckon the deck hands would rather be sitting on their 140K bums than be school teachers too...jeez...who wouldn't :D

[Mick_Marsh]

The constant boss bashing really wears very thin. The place has been operating with a very low staff turn for at least 20 years. He hasnt had any trouble filling postions for trades guys so I think your slander might be misplaced.

It always reminds me of the ..I think it was 60 Minutes episode..were young unemployed were whinging about no work etc etc and were offered jobs on one of the island resorts in north Qld. Took the free trip but horror upon horror, the uniform was purple and the young girl just said..I don't wear purple. I think the bloke needed a hair cut but that was too much of a sacrafice for full time employment as well.

I know a couple of young school teachers who are not earning more than 60K but still did their 4 years. And I reckon the deck hands would rather be sitting on their 140K bums than be school teachers too...jeez...who wouldn't :D
Didn't think my post was slanderous. In my recent year of being a self funded unemployed person, I had applied for one or two jobs. There were a lot of jobs (in my industry) I inquired about that the employers were "taking advantage" and they knew it. I said "Sorry. Not interested." but continued to see the same positions advertised month after month. On the other hand, those employers seriously wanting an employee had no trouble filling the position. Competition was fierce.
My cousin was a deck hand. He worked bloody hard and earned every dollar he got. Worked his way up. Last I heard he was a captain.
Yep, school teachers fresh out of teachers college get around $60k but they don't stay on that for long.
Tell me, was your engineering mate offering $60k apprenticeships and supplying tools and materials? I might be interested if he offered a living away from home allowance that covered house rental and utilities.

[incisor]

well when you lot have all finished running each other down and carrying on like kindergarten brats....

oh and no more dragging religious ideology in to it either thanks..

i have just spent half an hour trying to salvage something out of this thread so give the slagging each other off a break

try and discuss the pros and cons with out the ideological drivel...




now to get the thread back on something approaching the tracks



personally i think the idea of cutting spending is a good thing, i just don't think it should be done along ideological grounds with little fact to back the reasons for doing it that way or another.

definitely agree disability pensions should be harder to get

definitely agree pension asset tests should be tightened

i disagree that pensions should be below the poverty line

i believe that superannuation rules should be the same for all.

the current system is a rort where the high end of town pays $62 to get $100 super while the low paid end of town has to pay $108 to get $100 super.

there should be a basic safety net available to all australian citizens of voting age or above that is asset and means tested

there should be enforced work for the dole and the basic safety net even if it is just picking up rubbish off road sides or sweeping streets.

[DiscoMick]

I think the plan to deny the dole to young people for six months out of every 12 months is attacking a problem which is minor and will cause a rise in crime as people shoplift or rob to get food, nappies and other basics. So, expect crime figures to rise and neighbourhoods to become more unsafe. Welcome to Los Angeles, where you don't go out at night and certainly not to any place selling fried food. That's not the sort of Australia I want to live in. Hopefully the Senate will vote down this dumb measure.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-15/barns-slashing-welfare-is-a-recipe-for-crime/5454950
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[Chucaro]

.................................................. ..................
now to get the thread back on something approaching the tracks



personally i think the idea of cutting spending is a good thing, i just don't think it should be done along ideological grounds with little fact to back the reasons for doing it that way or another.

definitely agree disability pensions should be harder to get
IMO to do that laws have to be changed so prescribed drugs to treat a condition like pain killers do not make "disable" Legally you cannot work or even drive to work under the influence of panadiene forte.

definitely agree pension asset tests should be tightened
In which way? I hope that it is not the value of the home

i disagree that pensions should be below the poverty line
I agree with you

i believe that superannuation rules should be the same for all.
Yes

the current system is a rort where the high end of town pays $62 to get $100 super while the low paid end of town has to pay $108 to get $100 super.

there should be a basic safety net available to all australian citizens of voting age or above that is asset and means tested

there should be enforced work for the dole and the basic safety net even if it is just picking up rubbish off road sides or sweeping streets.
As long as the job it is paid at the same rate that cleaners that are doing the same job. If not you can bet that greedy ruthless employers will start exploiting workers

I would add:
Education should be free
Universal health care should be free

[incisor]

i personally think all assets should be included.

why shouldn't the house be included?

[Chucaro]

i personally think all assets should be included.

why shouldn't the house be included?

Well Dave, back in the late 1960's or early 70's a house in Maroubra (east Sydney) used to cost $30000 which was possible to be purchased by a tradesman and working wife. This couple was not rich or privileged just hard working people and perhaps one of them with two jobs.
Now that same house cost $2000000. Why it will be considered as an asset to get the pension?
Why this couple have to move after living 50 years or more there just because they cannot afford to live if the pension payment it is reduced?

[Mick_Marsh]

Well Dave, back in the late 1960's or early 70's a house in Maroubra (east Sydney) used to cost $30000 which was possible to be purchased by a tradesman and working wife. This couple was not rich or privileged just hard working people and perhaps one of them with two jobs.
Now that same house cost $2000000. Why it will be considered as an asset to get the pension?
Why this couple have to move after living 50 years or more there just because they cannot afford to live if the pension payment it is reduced?
Why should the wealthy be able to hide their wealth in assets?

[akelly]

The issue that causes the biggest loss in tax revenue isn't the assets, its the ability to write off investment losses against ANY other income source. Negative gearing is the problem - it's only available to those wealthy enough to buy property and it allows the very rich to pay virtually no tax at all. The 75 richest peple in Australia have a net income of less that $100 a year - that's not a typo. They pay no tax. How much personal tax do you think Clive Palmer is paying, or Gina Rinehart? Zero.

As for including the home in the assests test - why should it be? It makes no income for the owner. If a pensioner owns a home how does that help them buy milk and bread? Are they supposed to sell the home to fund retirement, then rent a house or flat to live in? Or rent out some part of the house to create an income stream? The whole concept makes no sense at all. It devalues the idea of paying off the mortgage - which is obviously good news for the banks (what a shock). If you keep a debt running you can leverage the negative gearing and pay no tax - perfect for wealthy retirees who don't need the pension, but can get it by dodging up the books.

As for "work for the dole" - the concept is ridiculous. If a job needs to be done, call it a job and pay someone to do it. If people out of work are out doing "busy work", how are they supposed to be looking for a job, or skilling for one? It's just ideological nonsense to punish those that the privilaged think are "lazy". No doubt there are people rorting unemployment benefits - but the answer is not to punish everyone that is unemployed, the answer is to enforce the rules that already exist, and to strengthen them where needed.

Conservatives love the idea of "work for the dole" because they think it makes them look tough. It also allows them to give menial work to those they despise, without the dignity of a job. Other advantages include no WHS protection for the workers (just like in the idiotic Green Army concept), no employment benefits and no superannuation. It's the perfect storm of wingnut ideology.

The same applies to the chages to disability pensions. This whole attack line is predicated on the idea that somehow diabled people are sponging off the system. A system where the wealthy that do most of the complaining are in fact sponging many times more by employing tax avoidance strategies. I'm sure some examples of rorting pensions can be produced - but are they statistically significant? I doubt it. Is the rorting of tax law significant? You bet it is, it costs the government billions every year.

[frantic]

For a long time certain sections have been pushing for reverse mortgages like the UK, so the pensioners who are asset rich but cash poor don't get as much pension but borrow against their house over their retirement. This means the bank gets first cut from the estate when they pass on. As a simple example 2 mill value house, couple out of super at 80, healthy borrow $20k a year for next ten to travel, buy a few cars, furniture etc they move to retirement village and the 250-300k loan comes out of sale or estate.
I wonder if ALP, PUP and the greens will have the nads to go double dissolution?
As people have said before this is a class based budget.
Cuts to pensions, cuts to unemployment benefits, cuts to family tax benefits, all permanent. Oh and a 2% tax for 3 years if you earn over $180k.
This means a single or dual income large family earning under $150k loses about $10,000 pensioners lose 1500 plus, lose your job under 30 and lose benefits after 6 months, higher uni fees so a bigger burden when they start work.
But don't worry, those earning over 180k will pay 2% extra for 3 years. So a person on $300,000 will pay $2400 extra for 3 years.
Cut tax to miners but Also cut state funding by 80billion to force up GST.

[nugge t]

Ah problem solved...get rid of the rich.

Just as an aside at what point does one qualify as "rich" and how many of them do we need to get rid of.

As far as I am aware it has been generally accepted that 5% unemployment is essentially full employment. So if we have an employment rate of under 6% less than 1% could be affected by the callous and outrageous work for the dole because statically the other 5% don't want to work anyway. That 1% presumable will find work because they want to and not be affected anyway.

But all that will be solved when we eradicate the evil "rich" anyway.

Just one question. When the rich have been eradicated, who are you going to blame then?

Ah I know...it will be my son's fault!

[ramblingboy42]

Akelly......negative gearing is available to anyone who can pay for their interest only loan to support whatever it is they wish to gear.

It doesn't have to be a house.

A person can start out at a very low investment level eg.$25,000 and kickstart their financial future with no out lay and very low interest payments and whatever tax benefits they may accrue based on the investment type.

Negative gearing is not just for the rich but by being astute it can make you rich.

How do you think a lot of the 'poor' got rich?

[Chucaro]

Why should the wealthy be able to hide their wealth in assets?

Wealth? that (hypothetical) couple is not wealthy, the home is the only asset, they lived in that suburb when the working class lived there,some of them working in Pagewood Holden plant. They are old now, they have all the family, friends and doctors there, why you have to penalize them just because that suburb increased in real estate value?

[solmanic]

I wonder if ALP, PUP and the greens will have the nads to go double dissolution?

Rest assured, they all know that if the government get this budget through both houses mostly intact then they will be there for a long time. The 2015 budget won't be nearly as harsh, then the 2016 one (prior to the next election) will be full of handouts and tax cuts. By then people will have either forgotten or gotten used to the outcomes of this budget and see anything being offered as a bonus.

When Joe Hockey talks about short term pain for long term gain, he is talking about the coalition's election strategy, not just fiscal planning for the country.

[incisor]

i just deleted a shed load of emotive posts just like this one.

where has anyone said get rid of the rich?

a few have said they should be treated the same as everybody else..

leave the emotive stuff out of it PLEASE!



Ah problem solved...get rid of the rich.

Just as an aside at what point does one qualify as "rich" and how many of them do we need to get rid of.

As far as I am aware it has been generally accepted that 5% unemployment is essentially full employment. So if we have an employment rate of under 6% less than 1% could be affected by the callous and outrageous work for the dole because statically the other 5% don't want to work anyway. That 1% presumable will find work because they want to and not be affected anyway.

But all that will be solved when we eradicate the evil "rich" anyway.

Just one question. When the rich have been eradicated, who are you going to blame then?

Ah I know...it will be my son's fault!

[nugge t]

I would refer you to akelly's post which blamed the "rich". I was simply suggesting a solution because of the tone of his post which cast them as the root cause.

If this isn't emotive..

"It also allows them to give menial work to those they despise"

I must be missing something.

As usual the lefties are fine until they actually have to justify their outrageous comments and when the can't they name call. I would invite you to re-read the deleted post and see who started getting personal. It is still the same bloke peddling the same cast garbage. Nothing has changed.

Leave you to the love in.

[incisor]

I would refer you to akelly's post which blamed the "rich". I was simply suggesting a solution because of the tone of his post which cast them as the root cause.

If this isn't emotive..

"It also allows them to give menial work to those they despise"

I must be missing something.

As usual the lefties are fine until they actually have to justify their outrageous comments and when the can't they name call. I would invite you to re-read the deleted post and see who started getting personal. It is still the same bloke peddling the same cast garbage. Nothing has changed.

Leave you to the love in.

fine take your bat and ball...

people are already into him over the points he was trying to make, same as he was into me for some of the points i made...

some, you would say were usually on his side to boot

[Greatsouthernland]

frantic, Ross Gittins is spot on when he said:
Only those people right at the bottom of the ladder have been hit hard – unemployed young people, the sick poor and, eventually, aged and disabled pensioners – but who cares about them? We've been trained to worry only about ourselves, and to shout and scream over the slightest scratch.

One of the things that I have noticed in the last 20 years or so is that the fair go Australian character has been replaced by the attitude "I am Ok bugger you Jack" :(
It is sad really, greed (for money, own comfort and material things) have take over compassion, mate-ship and care for the ones in need.

I don't believe we (everyone) have been trained to do anything. The government has surprised us all with this budget, and it is a small number of elite politicians and advisors that set financial policy which you may interpret as hitting certain groups hard, and it does hit most groups.

So if you say it's this mob who's greed has overtaken compassion etc. then I'll go with that. Just to infer that the fortunate loose their compassion when they become fortunate lacks substance.

So I don't see ANY loss of concern from the community about the disadvantaged, maybe we mix in different circles.

In fact I see an impending call for change to our national anthem by some overly zealous groups - "...with golden soil and WEALTH for toil, but not too much or you will be seen as rich and need more tax, our home is girt by sea...".

I'm sad you've come to feel this way over the last 20 years, but to balance it out, I've seen the exact opposite.

[Bigbjorn]

Well Dave, back in the late 1960's or early 70's a house in Maroubra (east Sydney) used to cost $30000 which was possible to be purchased by a tradesman and working wife. This couple was not rich or privileged just hard working people and perhaps one of them with two jobs.
Now that same house cost $2000000. Why it will be considered as an asset to get the pension?
Why this couple have to move after living 50 years or more there just because they cannot afford to live if the pension payment it is reduced?

Chuck, I bought my first house in April 1970 for $14,000. A waterfront semi-detached in Coogee. Sold it for $19,000 in November 1971. It sold again in early 1973 for $31,000. Sydney house and land prices were exploding almost exponentially at the time. Population had increased, the boom babies were getting married and breeding, and people who could possibly afford not to, refused to live west of Parramatta (indeed west of Burwood). At that time you could buy a new high set brick house and land package in Brisbane in what is now considered an inner suburb for $15,000, now selling for $500,000+. That Coogee house would now sell in excess of $3,000,000. Simply supply and demand. If you don't want the trouble and inconvenience of living 30 miles from the CBD then you have to pay for the privilege. If I was in the situation of living in a $3,000,000 house on the Age Pension, I would sell it and move to a mansion on the Sunny Coast and have a swag left over to invest and say "stick your miserable pension".

[incisor]

Well Dave, back in the late 1960's or early 70's a house in Maroubra (east Sydney) used to cost $30000 which was possible to be purchased by a tradesman and working wife. This couple was not rich or privileged just hard working people and perhaps one of them with two jobs.
Now that same house cost $2000000. Why it will be considered as an asset to get the pension?
Why this couple have to move after living 50 years or more there just because they cannot afford to live if the pension payment it is reduced?

so capitol gains is bad if you a business and good if your a home owner?

sorry, to me, the rules should be the same for everyone imho.

[nugge t]

fine take your bat and ball...

people are already into him over the points he was trying to make, same as he was into me for some of the points i made...

some, you would say were usually on his side to boot

Yes but you didn't smack him over the back of the head for what I beleive was a very emotive post, just had a go at the person responding.

My browser must be in selective mode as I can only see one response to his post which points out incorrect information on the negative gearing.

I beleive my point re unemployed is correct, and was made in a far less emotive manner than the earlier post.

As with all games, you only ask for a level playing field.

[incisor]

maybe just maybe imho it wasnt as emotive as yours... as evidenced by the fact others were starting to address it with out the flavour you added...

[Chucaro]

[QUOTE=nugge t;2147084......................................... .................
As usual the lefties are fine until t...................................[/QUOTE]

And that is one of the reasons why we cannot have a decent exchange of ideas, always someone come with categorizing ideologies........:(

[Chucaro]

.................................................. ............. If I was in the situation of living in a $3,000,000 house on the Age Pension, I would sell it and move to a mansion on the Sunny Coast and have a swag left over to invest and say "stick your miserable pension".
That is you and you have the right to make choices, others old and fragile with the family close by would prefer to be close to the love ones and enjoy their company during the last years of their life, they will be reassured to see the same doctor or perhaps have the same home care organization that support them, they will be like to be close to their friends, clubs,etc.
They worked for that, at the time they lived close to work like other people choose to live close to their work in the south of Sydney, Ryde or other places.
The value of their homes it is irrelevant for them, they cannot use the money.

[Greatsouthernland]

so capitol gains is bad if you a business and good if your a home owner?

sorry, to me, the rules should be the same for everyone imho.

Hi big D,

I don't know all the benefits of business, but I think interest on loans for commercial property is tax deductible, own home interest is not.

I'm happy to forgo an exemption on CGT for my home if I could claim interest as a tax deduction, and land tax, and rates, and stamp duty etc.

Cheers. :)

[incisor]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

a little clarity, maybe

the rest of the article is here, but i havent read all of it, you can see why the budget has been seen to be based on class amongst other things..

https://newmatilda.com/2014/05/13/rich-and-rhetoric-won-day

[nugge t]

maybe just maybe imho it wasnt as emotive as yours... as evidenced by the fact others were starting to address it with out the flavour you added...

wouldn't have thought you could get any more emotive than saying a group "despise" another. Pretty strong words.

Would have thought a PM would have been a better way to handle it when you are only having a go at one side of the equation.

[solmanic]

Inc. Perhaps this thread should be re-named "Bare knuckled partisan fist fight 2014".

[Greatsouthernland]

https://newmatilda.com/sites/newmatilda/files/TaxExpendituresGraph_2014-15.jpg

a little clarity, maybe

the rest of the article is here, but i havent read all of it, you can see why the budget has been seen to be based on class amongst other things..

https://newmatilda.com/2014/05/13/rich-and-rhetoric-won-day

Thanks for the graph, I read the article and without a reference to the previous year(s) amount, the numbers don't prove anything, the old '50% of statistics are wrong' debate.

I'm a bit confused by the superannuation amount, is this gross or nett? The govt tax super on the way in, and the profits within up to retirement age, so surely we're not seeing the full set of numbers from that article...a very one sided piece with a political axe to grind (that's how it seemed to me :)).

On the topic of family home interest bills, that wealthy businessman bloke - Clive - proposed that the first $10k in interest on everyone's home loan should be tax deductible, our mentor the US has something similar I believe. Maybe Clive saw the opportunity to remove the CGT expense/lost revenue stream.

Aren't assets purchased pre 1987 CGT exempt?

[incisor]

wouldn't have thought you could get any more emotive than saying a group "despise" another. Pretty strong words.

Would have thought a PM would have been a better way to handle it when you are only having a go at one side of the equation.

first duck onto the pond... after lots of peoples posts have been deleted for the very same reasons..,

am over it... sorry

[incisor]

well go find last years :p

i agree with you but it is a basis to start looking from...


Thanks for the graph, I read the article and without a reference to the previous year(s) amount, the numbers don't prove anything, the old '50% of statistics are wrong' debate.

I'm a bit confused by the superannuation amount, is this gross or nett? The govt tax super on the way in, and the profits within up to retirement age, so surely we're not seeing the full set of numbers from that article...a very one sided piece with a political axe to grind (that's how it seemed to me :)).

On the topic of family home interest bills, that wealthy businessman bloke - Clive - proposed that the first $10k in interest on everyone's home loan should be tax deductible, our mentor the US has something similar I believe. Maybe Clive saw the opportunity to remove the CGT expense/lost revenue stream.

Aren't assets purchased pre 1987 CGT exempt?

[Greatsouthernland]

Inc. Perhaps this thread should be re-named "Bare knuckled partisan fist fight 2014".

:spamsign:

[Greatsouthernland]

well go find last years :p

i agree with you but it is a basis to start looking from...

OK, when I get let off from domestic duties :D

I don't think I'll come up with anything more useful though, I see your point by the way. :cool:

[nugge t]

first duck onto the pond... after lots of peoples posts have been deleted for the very same reasons..,

am over it... sorry

second duck actually. also over it :D

[vnx205]

Am I right in thinking that the increase in the price of fuel will be one or two cents a litre?

If that is so then could some of the city based people claiming that the increase will be the last straw, will drive them to the wall or will mean the end of civilization as we know it, could explain how they think those of us who regularly pay ten to fifteen cents more than city prices have been able to survive?

[Chucaro]

Am I right in thinking that the increase in the price of fuel will be one or two cents a litre?

If that is so then could some of the city based people claiming that the increase will be the last straw, will drive them to the wall or will mean the end of civilization as we know it, could explain how they think those of us who regularly pay ten to fifteen cents more than city prices have been able to survive?

Well the same argument applies to wages and people that live bellow the poverty line, which IMO it is not valid.
We can adjust to any situation, just live on potatoes and wild rabbits but that does not mean that it is acceptable.

[vnx205]

first duck onto the pond.
When I worked in a timberyard back in the mid 1960s, that expression "ducks on the pond" meant something rather different from what I assume is its meaning here.

It was the phrase that passed around the yard to warn everyone that there was a female coming into the yard, so that language could be moderated to a standard considered to be acceptable for female ears.

[vnx205]

Well the same argument applies to wages and people that live bellow the poverty line, which IMO it is not valid.
We can adjust to any situation, just live on potatoes and wild rabbits but that does not mean that it is acceptable.

I'm not discussing whether it is acceptable or unacceptable.

I am just saying that some people believe that they will have difficulty managing when fuel is a few cents dearer. I wonder if some of them realise that some of us are already paying prices way above the level that they think is unmanageable.

[Chucaro]

I'm not discussing whether it is acceptable or unacceptable.

I am just saying that some people believe that they will have difficulty managing when fuel is a few cents dearer. I wonder if some of them realise that some of us are already paying prices way above the level that they think is unmanageable.
I can see your point of view, I can live with $26000 after tax and some people need $100000.
I guess that we have learned to live within our financial limitations and others not.
Perhaps their living expenses are higher than yours and I?
We can see that in many examples, for some very well off people their contribution to the carbon tax was unbearable.

[101RRS]

time for some popcorn and a coldy


Doubtful you'll need the popcorn, I think this thread will be gone shortly.

Gav you got that wrong - still here :D.

Same old - same old.

Garry

[Ausfree]

Gav you got that wrong - still here :D.

Same old - same old.

Garry
Yup!!!!(sigh):(

[vnx205]

How many times have we heard recently from politicians from both sides of politics about the need to return the budget to surplus?

How many times have we heard this notion justified by comparing the nations budget to a household or business budget? It usually goes something like, "Just like a household, a country can't spend more than it earns".

I understand that having a debt costs in interest that has to be paid back, but what I would like, preferably from someone who has used the analogy, is an explanation of how that is supposed to work.

Does it mean that no business should ever incur a debt by borrowing money to install new equipment that will improve the bottom line?

Does it mean that no household should ever take out a home loan and that no-one should ever borrow money to buy an investment property?

Or is it the case that it is a pointless comparison and is it the case that automatically assuming that the budget must always be in the black is a nonsense?

I don't need to be told that debt eventually has to be paid off or that we should invest in that which will bring us a return. What I want is to know whether I am the only one who is tired of the constant repetition of the notion that it is necessarily a bad thing to have the budget in the red at any time.

[AndyG]

It's one thing to take on debt, be it Govt, Business or an individual, it's another thing to have a coherent plan to repay it in a timely manner.

Debt can be a useful device, it can also cause a lot of grief.

[Chucaro]

It's one thing to take on debt, be it Govt, Business or an individual, it's another thing to have a coherent plan to repay it in a timely manner.

Debt can be a useful device, it can also cause a lot of grief.

I think that the issue is how the government go about to pay that debt.
From were he will get the money and which will be the implications.
Regarding vnx205 comments, I agree with him and it is funny that those politicians who said ""Just like a household, a country can't spend more than it earns" never think in close down the Institute of Sports and let the sport go back the the scholls and local clubs instead of investing millions in few elite athletes.
A household budget will not cut money in the health and education of the family members so they can play a sport.

[frantic]

I'm not discussing whether it is acceptable or unacceptable.

I am just saying that some people believe that they will have difficulty managing when fuel is a few cents dearer. I wonder if some of them realise that some of us are already paying prices way above the level that they think is unmanageable.

It's not the few cents a litre this year, it's going up everywhere every 6 months,but the broken promises. Add that to 7 bucks extra for doctors plus 5 bucks extra for a script, so in reality a doc visit with a script is now 12 dollars more. Multiply that by the members in your family means more costs. Now the other hidden gem is if you need a specialist, 97 from Medicare and AMA rate of 195. So it's not a 5 buck visit but a $100 visit!
This is health for the wealthy.

In relation to budget deficit and surplus there are many opinions, if the country and world is In recession and the government spends less than they take in tax its incompetence. Labor did the opposite of the e.u and UK who cut spending, and they increased spending ,which resulted in far fewer jobs lost. Gillard then buggered up the mining tax, which could have solved the budget hole, and introduced a carbon tax/schame against her promise.
As to 6%unemployed being full employment?:D
Ummm wasn't it around 2% in the 60's to early 70's? To get to that is another 400 to 600,000 jobs that the government have said nothing about.
4102.0 - Australian Social Trends, 2001 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/855e6f87080d2e1aca2570ec000c8e5f!OpenDocument)

[Fatso]

What I want to know is who do we owe this debt too ??? . The more the Guvment takes out of the general population the less there is to spend in the general population , or is that not the case !!.

[JDNSW]

What I want to know is who do we owe this debt too ??? . The more the Guvment takes out of the general population the less there is to spend in the general population , or is that not the case !!.

By and large, the debt is owed to bondholders, and these would be overwhelmingly Australians, mostly through their superannuation and other financial institutions.

The problem with government debt is not so much that it needs to be paid back, but that the interest has to be paid. Now if the debt is at a modest level, this is not a problem, but if the debt becomes large, the interest payment becomes a substantial part of the government budget. And if this payment gets to be a worryingly large part of the budget, people buying bonds will need to be paid higher interest rates to buy the bonds, otherwise they won't buy them, as they start to get worried about whether they will get their capital back when the bonds mature. All sorts of factors affect the stage at which they get worried, including the level of inflation, government policies, the international situation, etc etc.

The problem with a budget deficit is twofold. Firstly, if the government consistently runs a deficit, bondholders get worried. Secondly, if the budget is in deficit, the size of the government debt rises - and if it rises faster than revenue income does, the proportion of the budget used to pay interest increases. And this can rapidly get bond buyers worried.

Even worse - interest rates at present in Australia are at almost record lows, although high by international standards. This means that they are almost certain to go up rather than down. And since they are so low, a doubling or even tripling is quite reasonable over the next few years - so interest payments could quite easily rise dramatically, so that a manageable national debt could easily become a disaster as this would mean that interest rates needed to sell bonds would climb even more rapidly. This is the sort of scenario that has happened, for example, in Greece.

A problem faced by Australia is that a large proportion of the government revenue is a function of mining (mainly company and individual tax, but also other taxes and taxes on flow-on activity). A downturn in mining has, in fact, been responsible for the major part of the loss of Federal revenue relative to expenditure over the last few years (so much for mining not paying their way!). This heavy reliance on a relatively volatile revenue stream adds to the risk associated with running deficits, as everything is likely to go in the wrong direction at the same time; low minerals prices -> lower revenue -> higher interest as a proportion of revenue -> more deficit -> higher interest rates -> interest as a proportion of revenue increases ........

Hope this helps explain it.

John

[ramblingboy42]

I'm surprised we don't have an open minded economist on our forum.

I have an acquaintance who is one.....he is jumping up and down at the moment.

The govt is pulling the wool over the general populations eyes about budgets, deficits and surplus.

20million people cannot pay the cost of the new Dept of Defence toys that have been ordered. So who is paying for them.

The treasurer is.

He can manipulate money, funding for whatever suits his particular parties interests. and that's really the bottom line.....the parties interests.....fat jobs for fat cat mates who in turn financially support the party.

So , by scaremongering the general population into thinking that if the other party continue on the way they were going , the whole financial balance of the country is going to collapse around their ears.

In fact the previous govt's targets for 2015/16/17 are/were so close to what the current govt's are

Those projected figures from the last budget can be confirmed...they are actually public.

[incisor]

i editied the above post to keep the invective out of it....

i'm going to start banging heads people don't start pulling their heads in and leaving the ideology out of it..

state your opinion / case / facts or figures with out the drivel please.

[solmanic]

...
i'm going to start banging heads people don't start pulling their heads in and leaving the ideology out of it..

state your opinion / case / facts or figures with out the drivel please.

This thread was always going to get messy. Federal budgeting is so intertwined with political ideology that you simply cannot state pros & cons without referencing policy. It's a classic mummy or daddy option. This time around we have a daddy budget. During the GFC Labor was giving us mummy budgets.

No-one can present facts and figures without the next person looking at the same through a different coloured pair of glasses and calling bull****.



How about we talk about Land Rovers?

[Mick_Marsh]

A household budget will not cut money in the health and education of the family members so they can play a sport.
You can't say that. You can say it for your household but you can't force your values and priorities on other households.
I know of a household that needs to do a budget badly. Their expenditure far exceeds their income. They've borrowed money to make up the difference between the income and expenditure but the interest is adding to the expenditure so they are borrowing more money. A vicious cycle.
So, expenditure must be cut or income increased or both. So, what is the priority of this household? To keep the collection of Landys and Mercs registered and on the road, of course. What is of little priority to this household? Entertainment and food. No more beer, wine and spirits. The big plasma is now turned off at the wall. Only one light is on at night. The heating is turned off. If it gets cold, this household will put on another jumper. Only the barest minimum of food. No pizza, Chinese take away or fish & chips. This household received the power bill yesterday. It's dropped by $100 and this household only just started these austerity measures a few weeks ago.
But the vehicles are still registered.
Now, I'm guessing here but, Chucaro, you strike me as the sort of fellow who would rather forgo the expenses of your hobbies and toys for the pleasure of heating, entertainment and food.

Just highlighting the fact that people are different and some are more different than others. It is wrong to force your values and priorities on others.

(Just for the record, if I had children, I'd be selling them off for medical experiments.)

[V8Ian]

:Rolling: You're a wag Mick. BTW, if it gets really cold I'm sure the Mercs have a better heater than the Landies. ;)

[Chucaro]

.......................................
Now, I'm guessing here but, Chucaro, you strike me as the sort of fellow who would rather forgo the expenses of your hobbies and toys for the pleasure of heating, entertainment and food.
.................................................. ............................
Of course I can't force your values and priorities on other households is their choice, well the choice of the adults not the children ;)
In my home, I will cut the expenses of hobbies and entertainment so there is money for health and education and if it needed care for the old members in the family ;)
As you have said, values.

[Ausfree]

I've read through this Thread, I'm really surprised it has not been canned.:o

One thing I do notice is.......I have not heard one complaint from the big end of town about the budget so I'm guessing the mining companies and the banks and such are quite happy with it.


Now back to my popcorn....https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/685.jpg (http://www.sherv.net/)

[sheerluck]

I've read through this Thread, I'm really surprised it has not been canned.:o......

It did disappear for a half a day or so while Inc and the Mods made some running repairs.

I am very surprised it has lasted as long as it has. :p

[incisor]

No-one can present facts and figures without the next person looking at the same through a different coloured pair of glasses and calling bull****.
that would be fine!

esp if they backed it with some sort of fact based rationale for it or even an intelligible explanation for why they say bull****....

it's all the other ideological crap presented with no facts or just to have a go at the other side that keeps getting thrown in that keeps killing threads...

[V8Ian]

I refer to the original post, "So, evidently we've not learned much over the past 2,069 years."
We haven't broken that record in the last six days.

[discovery39]

that would be fine!

esp if they backed it with some sort of fact based rationale for it or even an intelligible explanation for why they say bull****....

it's all the other ideological crap presented with no facts or just to have a go at the other side that keeps getting thrown in that keeps killing threads...

Just delete the thread Inc. Its wasting server space.
Round and Round and Round and Round..............

[incisor]

Just delete the thread Inc. Its wasting server space.
Round and Round and Round and Round..............

nah...

it doesn't have to be like that :p

[discovery39]

nah...

it doesn't have to be like that :p

So how many times you gunna try?
Have seen you with much less patience.......

[Pickles2]

I've read through this Thread, I'm really surprised it has not been canned.:o

One thing I do notice is.......I have not heard one complaint from the big end of town about the budget so I'm guessing the mining companies and the banks and such are quite happy with it.


Now back to my popcorn....https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/685.jpg (http://www.sherv.net/)
"The Banks"???
When the GFC occurred, the one thing that came through was "Thank goodness for the strength of the BIG FOUR".
Pickles.

[incisor]

Have seen you with much less patience.......

you been peekin again?

[Mick_Marsh]

So how many times you gunna try?
Have seen you with much less patience.......
He's just purchased shares in a pop corn company.

[sheerluck]

He's just purchased shares in a pop corn company.

:Rolling:

That would explain it.

[Ausfree]

He's just purchased shares in a pop corn company.
Boy, have I been eating some over the last few days.........oh, the entertainment here, beats crappy TV.:p

[Chucaro]

Can I get pop corn in Dave's Interesting things?
I cannot see any in his page :(

[discovery39]

you been peekin again?

Its why I pay to be here....:cool:

[85 county]

is there available a P&L statement for income and expenditure, for what the budget is based on??

[Chucaro]

is there available a P&L statement for income and expenditure, for what the budget is based on??


:eek: That is a serious and intelligent question during the silly hour.
You have to give us time to clear the head (from wine and beer) so we can engage the brain :D

[discovery39]

:eek: That is a serious and intelligent question during the silly hour.
You have to give us time to clear the head (from wine and beer) so we can engage the brain :D

Silly hour is right!!
Cheers!

[85 county]

:eek: That is a serious and intelligent question during the silly hour.
You have to give us time to clear the head (from wine and beer) so we can engage the brain :D




Silly hour is right!!
Cheers!

so i take it from you two, the answer is NO!

therefor no one knows?

[DiscoMick]

Pretty sure the budget papers are available online and in printed form.

I enjoyed First Dog On The Moon on the budget ... and chicken salt.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/may/16/first-dog-reply-to-budget

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Chucaro]

After clearing my head and engage the brain (for a moment) I found the papers HERE (http://www.budget.gov.au/2014-15/index.htm)

[discovery39]

so i take it from you two, the answer is NO!

therefor no one knows?

Do you know???
Nope.
That's my point!:cool:

[discovery39]

After clearing my head and engage the brain (for a moment) I found the papers HERE (http://www.budget.gov.au/2014-15/index.htm)

You cleared the brain quicker than me Chucuro;)

[85 county]

Do you know???
Nope.
That's my point!:cool:

and what is your point??

no i do not know, and that is why i asked

so again what is your point ??

[sheerluck]

so i take it from you two, the answer is NO!

therefor no one knows?

The answer is yes, it does exist. It all runs off some huge databases so that each change can be modelled to show it's affect.

I doubt that anyone outside of Treasury would ever get to see it.

(One of my mates back in the UK was a statistician and modeller for the gum'ment there)

[sheerluck]

After clearing my head and engage the brain (for a moment) I found the papers HERE (http://www.budget.gov.au/2014-15/index.htm)

You on the meths again Arthur? :p

[Chucaro]

You on the meths again Arthur? :p

Yes, I borrowed one of that tripods that are using in the hospitals with the bag on it.
I have done some mod, instead of a bag I have a bottle.
If the finances are bad I replace the bottle for a bladder from a cask of plonk :D

[sheerluck]

Yes, I borrowed one of that tripods that are using in the hospitals with the bag on it.
I have done some mod, instead of a bag I have a bottle.
If the finances are bad I replace the bottle for a bladder from a cask of plonk :D

I hope you paid the extra $7 for the bag! :D

[discovery39]

and what is your point??

no i do not know, and that is why i asked

so again what is your point ??

My point is none of us know, yet this thread is full of experts about what is going to happen. Yes, one can hypothesise about it, fine, but when it goes round and round and round and round, and people start arcing up at each other, it just drags everything to the gutter.
We can all theorise about the grim end, but we (AULRO) are all supposed to be on the same side. (within reason) from what I've been reading throughout this thread since it started, I've asked myself this question.....
If (x) person was bogged on a track, and I came along whistling a tune, whilst listening to the subtle rumble of my 3.5, would I snatch or winch Mr/Mrs x out??
Given the amount of school kid crap that has gone on .......No, I wouldn't. I'd friggin leave em there!
This is not a go at you 85County, but a general rant!
I'm all for having an educated point of view, as this forum is what that is all about. But when it gets personal and emotional, you can all go whistle.
Over.

[Chucaro]

I hope you paid the extra $7 for the bag! :D

Dave in the budget can be some money for us, quote from it:

Entrepreneurs' Infrastructure Programme — establishment (http://www.budget.gov.au/2014-15/content/bp2/html/bp2_expense-17.htm)
The Government will provide $484.2 million over five years from 2013‑14 to establish the Entrepreneurs' Infrastructure Programme to implement its new approach to industry policy. The programme will focus on supporting the commercialisation of good ideas, job creation and lifting the capability of small business, the provision of market and industry information, and the facilitation of access to business management advice and skills from experienced private sector providers and researchers.

Just wonder if the establishment of a brown paper bags manufacturing could have some future in Oz?????

[85 county]

My point is none of us know, yet this thread is full of experts about what is going to happen. Yes, one can hypothesise about it, fine, but when it goes round and round and round and round, and people start arcing up at each other, it just drags everything to the gutter.
We can all theorise about the grim end, but we (AULRO) are all supposed to be on the same side. (within reason) from what I've been reading throughout this thread since it started, I've asked myself this question.....
If (x) person was bogged on a track, and I came along whistling a tune, whilst listening to the subtle rumble of my 3.5, would I snatch or winch Mr/Mrs x out??
Given the amount of school kid crap that has gone on .......No, I wouldn't. I'd friggin leave em there!
This is not a go at you 85County, but a general rant!
I'm all for having an educated point of view, as this forum is what that is all about. But when it gets personal and emotional, you can all go whistle.
Over.

well budgets , finance and in general money is not my thing nor is it my education.
but i can completely understand why some would be upset if it is money out of there pockets. or extra bills/tax for them to pay.

all i want is a simple P&L statement showing where the money is coming from and where is it going. simple realy

[Chucaro]

................statement showing where the money is coming from and where is it going. simple realy

Among the info that I am reading they cut money in research and science
The Government will achieve savings of $146.8 million over four years by reducing research funding for the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation by $111.4 million, the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation by $27.6 million and the Australian Institute of Marine Science by $7.8 million.
This have done, quote:
The savings from this measure will be redirected by the Government to repair the Budget and fund policy priorities.

but allocated
The Government will provide up to $89.9 million over two years from 2013‑14 as part of Australia's contribution to the search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.

[nugge t]

Whilst the debate has raged over the budget as to its economic merits, there is now a very ugly side emerging.

Firstly there was the pathetic arrogant and rude display by students on the Q & A program, although it was probably only a typical ambush for Q & A given its long-term bias.

Then Julia Bishop was physically pushed and generally intimidated by students when she was visiting a Uni. Not only was there a total lack of respect for the Foreign Minister but to treat any woman in this way is about as low as anyone could sink. And these fine upstanding students want to get a bigger grab of the public purse.

But the new low was the ABC radio interview of Mathias Cormann

"....ABC interview with Finance Minister Mathias Cormann that questioned whether, as an immigrant, he understood Australia’s “mindset and culture”.

The minister’s immigrant status was raised at the end of a Thursday interview by Adelaide radio ­station 891’s top-rating breakfast announcers David Bevan and Matthew Abraham.

Mr Cormann, who migrated from Belgium 18 years ago, was pushed on the budget’s welfare changes and whether he would have survived on them as a child in Belgium when his father was an alcoholic and his mother supported four children.

Abraham also asked Senator Cormann to confirm that he did not speak English until he was 20 and that he migrated to Australia in 1996.

“Do you think though, this I think was a criticism levelled at you when you rolled senator Ross Lightfoot for the Senate spot that has got you where you are today,” prefaced Abraham, “you don’t know as much about the Australian mindset and culture as perhaps other politicians who have either been born here or been here a lot longer because 1996 is not a long time?”

The interview was on Thursday and the press has been deafening in its silence. Can you imagine the ABC's and sections of the press's reaction if this had been Andrew Bolt or Alan Jones asking this of a Labor or Greens MP.

I hope Cormann pursues this under the Section 18C, which the libertarians are so desperate to have retained, but about which they are so silent in this case.

Everyone has the right to debate and disagree but this is now 3 examples which in my opinion are each disgraceful and each case people should be held to account, especially in the Julia Bishop and Mathias Cormann cases.

I can not work out how to imbed the video but if this is the future profesionals of our country, I wouldn't give a brass razoo towards there education until they learnt some manners.

[DiscoMick]

Chucro has already posted the link to the budget papers, which are the best available information for answering 85 County's request for a P and L.

I agree that interview with the Minister was rude, but then our government has been pretty rude to immigrants too, so the general tone of discussion has been lowered.

We should be welcoming immigrants to this country. If immigration stopped, our growth rate would plummet to almost zero, since it is the growing population which is fuelling the rises in retail sales, housing and many other things. WIthout immigrants, our population would be stalling, the proportion of young people would be falling and our economy would be stagnant. Japan is the classic example of that situation. We need to learn the lesson that immigration is a positive. People like Mathias Cormann are welcome here. We need them.

I notice the government can find $50 million in the budget to invest in new coal mines in Victoria, but it couldn't find any money at all to help SPC restructure to save jobs. Apparently mining is vital, but manufacturing is not important to them.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Pickles2]

I have said before that I think this Budget was the right one for the times.
There have been posts on this thread that Health & Education should be free, Pensions are not high enough, baby bonus's are not enough, people should not have to work for the dole, etc etc etc....all of which "benefits" is costing the taxpayer/the country,..HEAPS.
I've been retired for a while now, but when I was growing up, we had very few benefits, very few indeed,...but these "benefits" have been growing & growing every year, until they are now, in my opinion, unsustainable.
I think our Health system is amazing. Ya don't realize how good it is until you need it. My 87 y.o. mother in law has had several very severe health issues over the years, she has no private cover, and all of her hospital expenses have come to exactly ZERO. And how many tens of thousands of people in Aus have had the same experience,...it must be costing plenty to finance our health system. And yet people still aren't happy to pay a VERY small fee to see the doctor, the cost of which would be a couple of cups of coffee, a beer, or a few cigarettes.
Like I said, we had to PAY our way in my day, a lot more than these days.
I mean I hear people on the TV, & I think, geez, are these people in the real world. One couple I heard, and they were living in a lovely renovated modern home, & they had a small child, and they said, well it'll (the budget) will mean we won't be able to have a holiday, we won't be able to eat out once a week, we'll have to cut back. Geez, when we had a small child we NEVER could afford to eat out, nor could we afford to go away for a holiday. How times change.
So yes, I do think the current level of benefits is "unsustainable", & that we are all going to have to "Pay" a bit more.
Pickles.

[nugge t]

Just saw Kate Ellis interviewed and whislt she thought the Sydney University students actions were "deeply disappointing", she understood their anger.

As the Shadow Minister for Education that is a pathetic response IMHO

[nugge t]

I notice the government can find $50 million in the budget to invest in new coal mines in Victoria, but it couldn't find any money at all to help SPC restructure to save jobs. Apparently mining is vital, but manufacturing is not important to them.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

Pretty sure SPC sorted themselves out :D

[nugge t]

I have said before that I think this Budget was the right one for the times.
There have been posts on this thread that Health & Education should be free, Pensions are not high enough, baby bonus's are not enough, people should not have to work for the dole, etc etc etc....all of which "benefits" is costing the taxpayer/the country,..HEAPS.
I've been retired for a while now, but when I was growing up, we had very few benefits, very few indeed,...but these "benefits" have been growing & growing every year, until they are now, in my opinion, unsustainable.
I think our Health system is amazing. Ya don't realize how good it is until you need it. My 87 y.o. mother in law has had several very severe health issues over the years, she has no private cover, and all of her hospital expenses have come to exactly ZERO. And how many tens of thousands of people in Aus have had the same experience,...it must be costing plenty to finance our health system. And yet people still aren't happy to pay a VERY small fee to see the doctor, the cost of which would be a couple of cups of coffee, a beer, or a few cigarettes.
Like I said, we had to PAY our way in my day, a lot more than these days.
I mean I hear people on the TV, & I think, geez, are these people in the real world. One couple I heard, and they were living in a lovely renovated modern home, & they had a small child, and they said, well it'll (the budget) will mean we won't be able to have a holiday, we won't be able to eat out once a week, we'll have to cut back. Geez, when we had a small child we NEVER could afford to eat out, nor could we afford to go away for a holiday. How times change.
So yes, I do think the current level of benefits is "unsustainable", & that we are all going to have to "Pay" a bit more.
Pickles.

X2 big time.

[DiscoMick]

The Victorian Government saved SPC by putting up the money that the feral government refused.

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[jerryd]

X2 big time.

x3

As an outsider who emigrated here in 2004 when John Howard ruled :) it was hard to believe that Australia had hardly any debt.
In April 2006, the government announced it had completely paid off the last of $96 billion of Commonwealth net debt inherited when it came to power in 1996

So I'm still confused as to why and how Labour got into power and the rest is history :(

[Chucaro]

.................................................. ................
I can not work out how to imbed the video but if this is the future profesionals of our country, I wouldn't give a brass razoo towards there education until they learnt some manners.
How you can expect the young to have some manners when our politicians show complete contempt and disrespect in the way that they behave in the parliament?
How you expect that this young members of our society will behave in the way that the front members of the government behave just laughing when they enjoyed free education or with very low fees?
As you have said, "I do not give brass razoo"how these arrogant leaders are treated when do not show any respect for the population, students, the old or the poor.
You see, there are more side to the story ;)
Now lets go back to the topic please.

[Mick_Marsh]

My point is none of us know, yet this thread is full of experts about what is going to happen. Yes, one can hypothesise about it, fine, but when it goes round and round and round and round, and people start arcing up at each other, it just drags everything to the gutter.
We can all theorise about the grim end, but we (AULRO) are all supposed to be on the same side. (within reason) from what I've been reading throughout this thread since it started, I've asked myself this question.....
If (x) person was bogged on a track, and I came along whistling a tune, whilst listening to the subtle rumble of my 3.5, would I snatch or winch Mr/Mrs x out??
Given the amount of school kid crap that has gone on .......No, I wouldn't. I'd friggin leave em there!
This is not a go at you 85County, but a general rant!
I'm all for having an educated point of view, as this forum is what that is all about. But when it gets personal and emotional, you can all go whistle.
Over.
You seem to have a thing for whistling.

Yes, you are quite right. There has always been lots of opinion based on feelings and very little fact in these threads. And, yes, people get upset when you ask for evidence to support their position. I wish I could offer you proof, but it's all been deleted.

It's not hard to notice the 'school kid crap". I've worked in primary schools and know several teachers, and from my observations, there is little difference between a primary school kid and an adult. The major difference is a primary school kid can be told.

I was quite surprised with the budget. It doesn't effect me too much and there is a lot of good spending I agree with.

My advice to you is grab another bucket of popcorn, sit back in a nice comfy chair and enjoy the entertainment. Oh, and I always offer to help a stuck Landrover, no matter who it is.

[nugge t]

The Victorian Government saved SPC by putting up the money that the feral government refused.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

I was aware that the Vic Govt rattled the can but I didn't think it was the full amount being asked for. Happy to be corrected if that is incorrect.

[Chucaro]

Y................................................. .........
My advice to you is grab another bucket of popcorn, sit back in a nice comfy chair and enjoy the entertainment. Oh, and I always offer to help a stuck Landrover, no matter who it is.

Shareholders will make a fortune :D
What is your share Mick? :D

[DiscoMick]

x3

As an outsider who emigrated here in 2004 when John Howard ruled :) it was hard to believe that Australia had hardly any debt.
In April 2006, the government announced it had completely paid off the last of $96 billion of Commonwealth net debt inherited when it came to power in 1996

So I'm still confused as to why and how Labour got into power and the rest is history :(

That was nebt debt, not gross. They still had debt, but it meant their assets exceeded their debts. The Commonwealth's major debt is the retirement entitlements of generations of public servants, which were never properly funded, but just paid out of annual income. That's why the Future Fund was started, to fund future public service entitlements. Hopefully, if governments don't raid it, it will grow into a kind of massive soverign wealth fund, like countries such as SIngapore, Saudi Arabia and Norway have. The non-government equivalent here is our individual superannuation savings, which provide a huge pool of investment funds.

We need to keep these 'debt emergency' claims in perspective. The Treasurer the other day said how awful it was we were paying $1 billion a month in interest, which sounds a lot until you realise that's only $12 billion a year in interest payments on a budget of $438 billion, so that interest ratio is actually very low. I bet the average person with a mortgage would like to have such a low interest to income ratio.

http://www.afr.com/Page/Uuid/dc1c4588-d95c-11e3-9485-b0488c198232

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[nugge t]

How you can expect the young to have some manners when our politicians show complete contempt and disrespect in the way that they behave in the parliament?
How you expect that this young members of our society will behave in the way that the front members of the government behave just laughing when they enjoyed free education or with very low fees?
As you have said, "I do not give brass razoo"how these arrogant leaders are treated when do not show any respect for the population, students, the old or the poor.
You see, there are more side to the story ;)
Now lets go back to the topic please.

I think we have every right to expect that our young have manners. Just because politicians form both sides behave badly doesn't excuse the disgusting behaviour of the Sydney University behaviour or the ABC interviewer.

Hex has been a fact of life for a long time now. It was introduced by Labor. The Libs are asking for a slightly higher user pay component. tThis does not justify physically intimidating a Member of parliament let alone a woman. That you condone or at very least, make excuses for these action really surprises me.

If you are going to quote me, please try and be accurate. That is not what I said. I are making very large assumptions about who I show respect for. Remember that with rights comes responsibilities and respect needs to be earned. I am not sure how you see the actions of those students as being worthy of respect.

You of all people I would have expected to be outraged at the indignity and racially laced comments of the ABC interview with Mathias Cormann and am really surprised at your position.

The actions of these arrogant few are directly related to the Budget and as such I would have thought are on topic. The thread is not titled Budget 2014, economic discussion only.

[incisor]

x3

As an outsider who emigrated here in 2004 when John Howard ruled :) it was hard to believe that Australia had hardly any debt.
In April 2006, the government announced it had completely paid off the last of $96 billion of Commonwealth net debt inherited when it came to power in 1996

So I'm still confused as to why and how Labour got into power and the rest is history :(
thats because he sold off everything that was making the federal government money and gave tax breaks to the wealthy while there was nothing done for pensioners and little for the lower classes.

amazes the crap out of me that people don't acknowledge that the gfc existed and if it wasnt for how the labor party reacted the country would have become the mess the rest of the world has become...

sure we got some debt that needs paying down, but it is only a fraction of what the vast majority of the world copped and owes...

won't even go near where employment levels would have been but it appears this government is going to take us there after the fact, on ideological grounds it seems.

[DiscoMick]

I agree that, while people have a right to protest, they should do it peacefully, otherwise we'll end up like the Ukraine or Thailand with mobs demonstrating in the streets and bombing each other. But I also agree with Churaro that Abbott in particular set a new low in parliamentary behaviour as Opposition Leader, particularly his behaviour towards Gillard, and now people think if the PM can behave that way, then so can I, so this government is reaping what it sowed.
The protests on Q and A were peaceful, just noisy and disruptive, and Pyne (who holds the record for being thrown out of parliament for abusive behaviour) seemed to find being heckled quite amusing. I don't agee with pushing Bishop around though. It should be 'hands off'.

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[nugge t]

Of course it is Abbott’s fault. Maybe it started when decline for respect of Parliament started when the labor backed unions attacked Parliament house. Sorry but I think that it is very simplistic to blame Abbott for the bad behaviour.

The Left is supposed to be the upholders of free speech and debate. I am appalled but not surprised by the lack of commentary from those who scream so loudly about rights, racial discrimination and free speech when it is Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt.

[incisor]

The Left is supposed to be the upholders of free speech and debate. I am appalled but not surprised by the lack of commentary from those who scream so loudly about rights, racial discrimination and free speech when it is Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt.

maybe because the vast majority think it is acceptable that people know who is representing them?

people are going to be upset because no where was it mentioned, before the election, that this government was going to act to fundamentally change the nature of the federal relationship with the states and the people.

forget popcorn...

long live the flying peanut!

[nugge t]

x3

As an outsider who emigrated here in 2004 when John Howard ruled :) it was hard to believe that Australia had hardly any debt.
In April 2006, the government announced it had completely paid off the last of $96 billion of Commonwealth net debt inherited when it came to power in 1996

So I'm still confused as to why and how Labour got into power and the rest is history :(

Because Labor governments spend money...that IS what they do. The Libs come in and clean up the mess and then the cycle happens again.

I am sure they will line up on this but all I ask is 1 example of when a Labor Government, State or federal left power with more money in the bank than when they came to power.

The examples of Labor waste that I can think of in my life time are Whitlam, Hawke/Keating, Gillard/Rudd, Kirner in Vic, Goss/Beattie/Bligh in Qld, Burke in WA (or should that be WA Inc).

The cycle is the same every time..20,000 extra public servants with the same waiting times in hospitals, education standards stagnant at best etc etc. At the end of their time we have nothing to show for the debt. Not a dam or airport or highway. Maybe a new Health payroll system in Qld, or a pink batts or computers in schools or schools halls...

[Mick_Marsh]

Kirner
Joan Kirner, that's a good one.
Remember that comedy sketch that had her (played by Magda Szubanski I think) busking in Bourke Street Mall.
Yes, Joan. They wouldn't let her borrow more money for her budget, so she sold off the state rail system. In three years Victoria had paid the sale price back in lease payments.

[scarry]

Joan Kirner, that's a good one.
Remember that comedy sketch that had her (played by Magda Szubanski I think) busking in Bourke Street Mall.
Yes, Joan. They wouldn't let her borrow more money for her budget, so she sold off the state rail system. In three years Victoria had paid the sale price back in lease payments.

Carefull,your post may vanish,just like my last one:(:D

I am nearly out of popcorn.....

Umm,nuggets posts seem to get to stay?

Koala maybe

I like the way they do things up here,everything is done 'commercial in confidence' so know one really knows what is going on.

[incisor]

Umm,nuggets posts seem to get to stay?

Koala maybe



gold....

[Mick_Marsh]

Carefull,your post may vanish,just like my last one:(:D

I am nearly out of popcorn.....

Umm,nuggets posts seem to get to stay?

Koala maybe

I like the way they do things up here,everything is done 'commercial in confidence' so know one really knows what is going on.
Why would it? I thought it was common knowledge. It was also in the newspapers of the day.
Unfortunately, she was lumped with the monumental task of saving a sinking ship that was scuttled by John Cain (who resigned). This did effect me greatly as I was a employed by the state government and my position was one of those cut at the time.
nugge t is right. One government spends and the other saves. Economies need spending and saving so the one that gets the right balance will stay in power for a long time.

Some parts of this budget are a move in the right direction. Let's see what happens with the next budgets.