Puma ABS scared the ........ outof me!

[inken_dave]

Thought I'd share an experience which has happened twice now, and I need to do something about it!

I have a 2013 110 Defender. Twice now I have been climbing very steep inclines (as I live in steep country), and when in diff lock and low range, the TC system starts to kick in. The system seems to become more responsive with some extra RPM, so I often rev when the TC system engages which helps.

This all works fine until I'm in a position where the Defer won't move forward. Because of the steepness, on both occasions I have disengaged the clutch at the same time applying the brake. This is now when I have got myself into serious trouble. The first time this happened, the ABS starts to work (because of the higher wheel rpm when spinning I assume) but it does not turn off!!!!!!! I start to accelerate backwards down with my foot hard on the brake, but the ABS is working with my foot pedel pulsing as I go back down the slope which fortunately was clear. I had to steer it straight with the ABS system doing almost nothing to arrest my speed. This was quite frightening!


Imagine climbing up a slope until you loose traction altogether, you continue to rev to try and inprove the ability of the TC, but when you depress the clutch, and apply the brake, instead of the wheels locking, the ABS unit jumps in and starts the anti locking process. The only problem is, that you are now heading backwards trying to stop, but because of the ABS acting while travelling backwards, the truck wont stop!!!!!!!!!!

Because of the clear pathway, I decided to control it backwards and not apply the handbrake and stress the system, as the speed backwards became quickly high.

The second time, the pathway was not clear, as I was in dense timber, but the saving grace was that I had dough four deep holes in which I rolled back into which slowed the truck enough to turn off the ABS activity!

This feature can be avoided(I think) when you are still in gear and no longer going forward, but allow the wheel RPM reduce before applying the brake!!!!

I have grown up in the bush, and in relatively steep country, so I'm not unfamiliar with the techniques or risks involved in safely crossing steep terrain!

Have others had this problem? I would like the ABS to be disabled as soon as you put the TX case into low range!!! Any suggestions?

[ProjectDirector]

I am not entirely sure for your circumstances but if you are going uphill and can't any further, the best approach is stall start.

[cjc_td5]

I feel your anguish. I have had the same thing happen a few times with my D2a, both backwards and fowards. It is an unsettling feeling to be edging down a steep grassed slope and have the vehicle take off down the hill with no amount of brake pressure having any affect. Problem is that a small amount of wheel lockup would allow the tyres to break through to the firm ground underneath and I would have stopped.

[TeamFA]

When the ABS started playing up on our '02 TD5 Defender, it also caused a couple of brown-pants moments - notable when it started releasing the brakes for me coming down a hill to a T-junction. Not very convenient.

I searched for and found the fuse that enabled the ABS, and removed it. It hasn't found it's way back in since.

The downside is that the handbrake light stays on now (I'm pretty sure that there's no other indication on our model Defender of ABS being disabled), but as I destroyed the handbrake switch soon thereafter anyway (another story), it didn't really matter.

My suggestion, if you want ABS disabled when in low range or doing anything offroad, would be to remove the fuse - assuming you can do this in the Puma.

[Chops]

This is the very reason I don't like ABS in the bush, and I'm glad my Puma doesn't have it.
One should be able to make it switchable if you really wanted to.

[voltron]

One should be able to make it switchable if you really wanted to.

Maybe that is the simple solution.

[rutmutt]

If you pull the fuse for the ABS on a Puma (which I do when i go 4wd'ing and things looks steep) it will light up the ABS, handbrake (warning light) and Traction Control lights from memory. What affect this has other than disabling the ABS I am not sure.

[djam1]

I put a switch on the 30 amp power feed to the ABS ECU
Turn it off when you don't want, it will have lights on the dash that will go away when you turn it back on.
It will however have error codes recorded I just clear them later

[rangieman]

Removing ABS Fuse will disable Traction control , Better of adding a switch to your Puma to turn off the ABS if its possible .
My opinion ABS has no place off road except for the Traction control side of things

[schuy1]

I feel your anguish. I have had the same thing happen a few times with my D2a, both backwards and fowards. It is an unsettling feeling to be edging down a steep grassed slope and have the vehicle take off down the hill with no amount of brake pressure having any affect. Problem is that a small amount of wheel lockup would allow the tyres to break through to the firm ground underneath and I would have stopped.

On a D2 isnt it just as easy, if the hill decent is that steep, to use Hill Decent? I know its a pain with the squawking and dinging but I do find it oki and it disables the ABS side . Or is there something Im missing?
Cheers Scott

[bemm52]

Can anyone post a diagram or photo of just which fuse this is in a 2.2 puma

Cheers paul

[jackiec]

Should be switchable

[Tombie]

All the opinions here still don't match the 99.9% of times where ABS offroad works better than not having it...

If your system is playing up, get it sorted... None of you can drive better than a computer!

There has never been an occasion to date where ABS has failed or performed in such a manner for me to desire it's disconnection.

And as noted, no ABS, no Traction Control system... An even worse situation!

[Larry]

..........This all works fine until I'm in a position where the Defer won't move forward. Because of the steepness, on both occasions I have disengaged the clutch at the same time applying the brake. .............

If the hill is that steep & you stop moving forward, the last thing you should be doing is putting your foot on the clutch.:eek:
Sound like you need to learn how to do a stall recovery - safest way to get back down a hill whether you lose traction or run out of puff.

[ProjectDirector]

If the hill is that steep & you stop moving forward, the last thing you should be doing is putting your foot on the clutch.:eek:

Sound like you need to learn how to do a stall recovery - safest way to get back down a hill whether you lose traction or run out of puff.


Agree, just like I said before to use stall start process, I did it on a couple of occasions going up the hill and worked well.

[benji]

I'm wiring in a switch to turn the abs computer off tomorrow. As far as I'm concerned it's outright dangerous - period.
You cannot slow down on some surfaces, and you can't do a stall recovery in an auto. I've had exactly that happen in reverse too.

On heavily corrugated gravel roads it won't slow down either.

It's great on firm surfaces, and quite remarkable in the wet - but we nearly lost it coming down a step loose track towards a switchback......
In what situations have you found it helpful offroad?

[Naks]

Imagine climbing up a slope until you loose traction altogether, you continue to rev to try and inprove the ability of the TC, but when you depress the clutch, and apply the brake, instead of the wheels locking, the ABS unit jumps in and starts the anti locking process. The only problem is, that you are now heading backwards trying to stop, but because of the ABS acting while travelling backwards, the truck wont stop!!!!!!!!!!
?



I have TC in my Puma, and never encountered the situation you are describing, so either you're doing it wrong or there is an issue with your TC/ABS?

Never, ever use the clutch when going up or down steep inclines. In fact, using the clutch offroad is a big no-no, that's the first thing you are taught at LR experience.

You select the correct gear before you hit the obstacle/incline. If you cannot clear it, stall the vehicle and then do a controlled reverse.

[inken_dave]

If the hill is that steep & you stop moving forward, the last thing you should be doing is putting your foot on the clutch.:eek:
Sound like you need to learn how to do a stall recovery - safest way to get back down a hill whether you lose traction or run out of puff.

I understand what you are saying, and I understand the stall recovery. If you use a stall recovery all the time, this just doesn't always fit. Often you have a chance of a second line, in which you do depress the clutch and stomp on the brake(So your engine doesn't stall!!!!!), then you back down slowly, to firmer ground. So I appreciate your comments, but not scenarios are the same!!!! I'm not talking stupid inclines, but inclines where it is possible to get going again using the right line!

What has happened, is there has been no transition time from bringing the truck to a standstill to the ABS activating! This problem is not starting when I want to reverse back down, this problem is when I’m wanting to stop on the hill, without stalling the engine!!!

Yes, in hindsight, you could let the Defer idle, it wont stall in 1st low, and then switch it off. This would be a safe option, but with anything without ABS, this is unconventional!!!!!!

They key, I have found, is to reduce you wheel speed before deciding to halt the truck.

On the tec side, if disabling the ABS is possible, then a simple relay logic circuit may work from the low range sensor, so when pushing the lever forward, the ABS comes off!

[Naks]

What has happened, is there has been no transition time from bringing the truck to a standstill to the ABS activating!


Hmm, sounds like there's an issue with your ABS - wheel sensors dirty perhaps?

[FeatherWeightDriver]

I have TC in my Puma, and never encountered the situation you are describing, so either you're doing it wrong or there is an issue with your TC/ABS?

Never, ever use the clutch when going up or down steep inclines. In fact, using the clutch offroad is a big no-no, that's the first thing you are taught at LR experience.

You select the correct gear before you hit the obstacle/incline. If you cannot clear it, stall the vehicle and then do a controlled reverse.

I went on the Sydney LR Experience weekend recently and one of my (many) leanings over the weekend was ascending loose slopes with TC.

Coming from a non TC non locked 4wd my instinct was always to get off the accelerator and on to the brakes once traction and hope is lost. Sure that stalls out the car and may get interesting depending on exactly how steep / slippery the slope is, but 4 wheels locked to a stationary engine and full brakes are better than dicing with a clutch and brake juggle.

It was very interesting to watch and then drive loose hills in a TC equipped Land Rover - yes I must admit I fell back on my old bad habits a few times, but once you get the hang of keeping the throttle on (not flat to the floor ;) ) and letting the TC do it's work it is far more effective.

On the other hand, TC will not save you if appropriate momentum isn't provided before you get in to strife. As much as I would love to idle up everything in low second sometimes that just isn't possible :angel:

As an aside it was staggering to see all of the Land Rover models match capabilities on the same obstacles. Sure the Sport and Freelander don't have the ground clearance of a Discovery or Defender, but their TC is certainly up to the task of keeping them going. Situations where the Discovery and Defender kept all four tyres on the ground through articulation, the Sport and Freelander had tyres half a meter in the air but that still didn't stop them :)

[tact]

Is happened twice now, you say.

Some advice from my mum would fit, "....well stop doing what you are doing that makes it happen"

You need to do something about it, you say.

Listen to my mum. Try doing something else. I can't help but think that stall or key off, no touching the clutch, would see you stopped on the slope as you desired.

I can't help but think that selecting reverse and keying back on would see you driving back down in a controlled manner with ABS positively helping.

Stop when you want to take that second shot/line - select appropriate forward gear and be on your way.

I understand that would do what you wanted with an unwanted added step (engine off).

But no matter what else, listen to mum. Do stop doing what you know will cause you grief.

[camel_landy]

Hmmm... ABS isn't the problem. Like others have said, a little bit of training might be in order here.

Frankly, you just need to get it into reverse and drive down the hill, albeit backwards!

M

[Naks]

As promised on Defender2.net, after work I put the landy into low-range, got it up to 45kmh and then stomped on the brakes - ABS did kick in.

But that was without CDL on, so not sure if CDL on makes a difference

[djam1]

I recall reading some years ago where someone wrote off a TD5 Defender when this happened.
I haven't experienced it but I would be wary.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

Also - don't forget you have a dumb handbrake (I.e. mechanical user operated).

You could, and possibly should, be using the handbrake once you can no longer proceed.

This does not solve the problem, but will certainly stop you rolling back.

[inken_dave]

Hmmm... ABS isn't the problem. Like others have said, a little bit of training might be in order here.

Frankly, you just need to get it into reverse and drive down the hill, albeit backwards!

M

OK, I can take advise, but let me put it to you this way: If I take my 1958 series 1 up the exact same slope, I can almost get to the same point, and the series one will do what I want it to.......STOP....EVERY TIME

My query, after all thoes saying it is my driving style, is that the Defer with ABS/TC is not obeying my inputs as I want! The series 1 does, as does every other 4WD I have every driven up this particular slope!

The other point to mention is this is a general access track, and I don't want to go backwards!!! I'm not taking my Landrover out for a weekend stretch, it is actually working and is almost in low range every day! If it wont get up there, due to rain, load or whatever, then it gets winched up!

[Summiitt]

OK, I can take advise, but let me put it to you this way: If I take my 1958 series 1 up the exact same slope, I can almost get to the same point, and the series one will do what I want it to.......STOP....EVERY TIME

My query, after all thoes saying it is my driving style, is that the Defer with ABS/TC is not obeying my inputs as I want! The series 1 does, as does every other 4WD I have every driven up this particular slope!

The other point to mention is this is a general access track, and I don't want to go backwards!!! I'm not taking my Landrover out for a weekend stretch, it is actually working and is almost in low range every day! If it wont get up there, due to rain, load or whatever, then it gets winched up!

I agree with you, it's not your driving style, it sounds as if you know what your doing, I absolutely hated the abs off road on my 08 puma, my 130s now without abs are a better machine to drive in the bush particularly in the steep country we work in on fire trails. I do not want an abs system to work backwards. I want to be able to lock the wheels up when I want. The feet of stall start approach works for most situations, but as I normally have about 1200kgs+ in the back! the last thing I need is to have all my feet off the pedals! you need to be able to pump the brake when you need to, not when a bloody computer wants you to!

[jimr1]

The first time I saw abs. give a problem was , I was a passenger in my mates p38 We were in the Vic. high country , he was in low going down a steep track , he touched the brakes , and the abs. started to pulsate back though the pedal . The vehicle started to run away , the brakes were not helping him at all , I pulled nice and steady on the hand break and we stopped . My mate had come from a classic Rangy with no abs. He has now mastered how to drive his p38 and the abs . but that first experience will take a long time to forget ..Jim..:)

[rangieman]

All the opinions here still don't match the 99.9% of times where ABS offroad works better than not having it...

If your system is playing up, get it sorted... None of you can drive better than a computer!

There has never been an occasion to date where ABS has failed or performed in such a manner for me to desire it's disconnection.

And as noted, no ABS, no Traction Control system... An even worse situation!

Wrong Wrong Wrong :cool:
Have you actualy witnessed the difference ?
A car without ABS will stop sooner than one with ABS on a dirt/gravel/muddy road fact !
Why you ask a non ABS system will lock the wheels and the wheel,s will dig in building dirt up in front of them reducing the force of the car going forward Fact where ABS will release and brake to avoid lock up:eek: .

I did a advanced driving course at work 2 identical cars same speed , One car had the abs fuse removed a full hard brake stop at 60 ks on dirt = A good car and a half distance between the 2 , Mmmm why dont rally cars have abs :p
Like a said in another thread a while ago i have seen ABS and autos off road and it can be scary .
I like the T/C but hate ABS offroad and there is nothing wrong with my ABS .
I agree with ABS on bitumen:D Just not dirt or off road , My rant over:cool:

[Tombie]

Wrong Wrong Wrong :cool:

Have you actualy witnessed the difference ?

A car without ABS will stop sooner than one with ABS on a dirt/gravel/muddy road fact !

Why you ask a non ABS system will lock the wheels and the wheel,s will dig in building dirt up in front of them reducing the force of the car going forward Fact where ABS will release and brake to avoid lock up:eek: .



I did a advanced driving course at work 2 identical cars same speed , One car had the abs fuse removed a full hard brake stop at 60 ks on dirt = A good car and a half distance between the 2 , Mmmm why dont rally cars have abs :p

Like a said in another thread a while ago i have seen ABS and autos off road and it can be scary .

I like the T/C but hate ABS offroad and there is nothing wrong with my ABS .

I agree with ABS on bitumen:D Just not dirt or off road , My rant over:cool:


What? Nothing in my post was wrong.

I never said it will stop quicker... Or in a shorter distance.

Emergency situations are more often about avoiding a collision that stopping dead... This is where ABS shines.

I've seen the trials - and done several courses and training events... And on dead flat loose surfaces, travelling straight ahead you are spot on that the Non-ABS version (all other factors being equal) will stop shorter.

It's not very often in the world that situation presents through.

The non-ABS will head low side, slide uncontrollably, not be steerable and likely slam into whatever you wish to avoid.

Marble rock levels the playing field even further.

Autos and ABS offroad work absolutely fine... I've done everything offroad in both manual and auto with and without ABS and wouldn't be without it, especially on fast loose surfaces.

As for "Rally Cars don't have it..." They did... Once.
The governing body then removed its use from the regs...

You forget when you ask me have I seen or felt the difference that I spend large portions of my life driving all sorts of terrain offroad - primarily now in ABS equipped Autos!

I asked my colleagues this same question and not one has had an issue with ABS offroad.


You can hate your ABS offroad all you like... Or can learn to work with it... No different to learning how to drive to suit a vehicles suspension set up.

Enjoy :)

[rangieman]

What? Nothing in my post was wrong.

I never said it will stop quicker... Or in a shorter distance.

Emergency situations are more often about avoiding a collision that stopping dead... This is where ABS shines.

I've seen the trials - and done several courses and training events... And on dead flat loose surfaces, travelling straight ahead you are spot on that the Non-ABS version (all other factors being equal) will stop shorter.

It's not very often in the world that situation presents through.

The non-ABS will head low side, slide uncontrollably, not be steerable and likely slam into whatever you wish to avoid.

Marble rock levels the playing field even further.

Autos and ABS offroad work absolutely fine... I've done everything offroad in both manual and auto with and without ABS and wouldn't be without it, especially on fast loose surfaces.

As for "Rally Cars don't have it..." They did... Once.
The governing body then removed its use from the regs...

You forget when you ask me have I seen or felt the difference that I spend large portions of my life driving all sorts of terrain offroad - primarily now in ABS equipped Autos!

I asked my colleagues this same question and not one has had an issue with ABS offroad.


You can hate your ABS offroad all you like... Or can learn to work with it... No different to learning how to drive to suit a vehicles suspension set up.

Enjoy :)

You stated 99.9% of opinions ABS is better than no ABS off road What about real life experience . I guess its your 99.9% of opinion:p
Back to you :angel:

[Naks]

Autos and ABS offroad work absolutely fine...

You can hate your ABS offroad all you like... Or can learn to work with it...


yep

[Tombie]

You stated 99.9% of opinions ABS is better than no ABS off road What about real life experience . I guess its your 99.9% of opinion:p
Back to you :angel:


99.9% of *opinions*??????? 99.9% of the time was my post.

What about real life experience? Mate, if me and my work teams covering thousands of kilometres a month, all offroad isn't enough experience then I guess there isn't enough.

We drive formed and unformed tracks, climb escarpments and steep descents...
Have to avoid Cattle, Sheep, Native fauna at speed..
Drive in all weather conditions, on sand, mud, clay, gibber, marble rock, gravel... (Only exclusion is ice/snow).

:D

[camel_landy]

OK, I can take advise, but let me put it to you this way: If I take my 1958 series 1 up the exact same slope, I can almost get to the same point, and the series one will do what I want it to.......STOP....EVERY TIME

My query, after all thoes saying it is my driving style, is that the Defer with ABS/TC is not obeying my inputs as I want! The series 1 does, as does every other 4WD I have every driven up this particular slope!

The other point to mention is this is a general access track, and I don't want to go backwards!!! I'm not taking my Landrover out for a weekend stretch, it is actually working and is almost in low range every day! If it wont get up there, due to rain, load or whatever, then it gets winched up!

Like the S1, the Defender is just a tool... Albeit a tool with some new bells & whistles which you just need to learn how to use.

ABS doesn't work below a threshold (can't remember off-hand what that threshold is) but your revving & wheel spinning is taking it above this threshold so when you stamp on the brake, it thinks you're sliding. If you let the revs drop a bit before stomping on the brake, you stand a better chance of getting your desired result... Being progrssive with the brake will help too.

That said, in your scenario, you're going to be better off popping it into reverse, back off to the point where you regain traction and stop there. Let's face it, even if you locked the wheels, the car is still going to slide backwards until it has enough traction to stop. All I'm suggesting is you do so under a more controlled manor.

M

[jon3950]

What? Nothing in my post was wrong.

I never said it will stop quicker... Or in a shorter distance.

Emergency situations are more often about avoiding a collision that stopping dead... This is where ABS shines.

I've seen the trials - and done several courses and training events... And on dead flat loose surfaces, travelling straight ahead you are spot on that the Non-ABS version (all other factors being equal) will stop shorter.

It's not very often in the world that situation presents through.

The non-ABS will head low side, slide uncontrollably, not be steerable and likely slam into whatever you wish to avoid.

Marble rock levels the playing field even further.

Autos and ABS offroad work absolutely fine... I've done everything offroad in both manual and auto with and without ABS and wouldn't be without it, especially on fast loose surfaces.

As for "Rally Cars don't have it..." They did... Once.
The governing body then removed its use from the regs...

You forget when you ask me have I seen or felt the difference that I spend large portions of my life driving all sorts of terrain offroad - primarily now in ABS equipped Autos!

I asked my colleagues this same question and not one has had an issue with ABS offroad.


You can hate your ABS offroad all you like... Or can learn to work with it... No different to learning how to drive to suit a vehicles suspension set up.

Enjoy :)

Totally agree Mike.

Probably worth emphasising that some systems are better than others in this respect. For example the abs in my Disco1 was dangerous on the dirt and you were better off without it, whereas in the D4 its brilliant and I would have it over a non abs system any day.

As for "rally cars don't have it", this is nearly true. Most don't. However, during the arms race years of the World Rally Championship they ran very sophisticated electronic systems. As Mike pointed out they were banned in WRC cars a few years ago, along with traction control, launch control and electronic diff controllers due to the costs. These cars were being driven by some of the best drivers on the planet, but still the electronic systems were better.

Cheers,
Jon

[PAT303]

Like the S1, the Defender is just a tool... Albeit a tool with some new bells & whistles which you just need to learn how to use.

ABS doesn't work below a threshold (can't remember off-hand what that threshold is) but your revving & wheel spinning is taking it above this threshold so when you stamp on the brake, it thinks you're sliding. If you let the revs drop a bit before stomping on the brake, you stand a better chance of getting your desired result... Being progrssive with the brake will help too.

That said, in your scenario, you're going to be better off popping it into reverse, back off to the point where you regain traction and stop there. Let's face it, even if you locked the wheels, the car is still going to slide backwards until it has enough traction to stop. All I'm suggesting is you do so under a more controlled manor.

M

Very good post,too many people will not use their brains or adjust to different experiences,the point about spinning the wheels so the ABS thinks your going faster is a good one,maybe spinning the wheels is the reason your not making it to the top?. Pat

[inken_dave]

Very good post,too many people will not use their brains or adjust to different experiences,the point about spinning the wheels so the ABS thinks your going faster is a good one,maybe spinning the wheels is the reason your not making it to the top?. Pat

Thanks! I'll remember to engage my brain when I engage the diff lock!!