Oil for 2L engine

[inken_dave]

Hi, I have just purchased a 1958 88" Series 1. I'll be posting some pics soon. I was just wondering what the best modern oil to use in the Landrover engine was. The book says SAE 30 or 40 for my daily temperatures, what do you think?

[chazza]

Use Penrite Classic Penrite Oil - A Better Class Of Oil (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products-categ.php?id_categ=14&id_subcateg=69)

Cheers Charlie

[inken_dave]

Use Penrite Classic Penrite Oil - A Better Class Of Oil (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products-categ.php?id_categ=14&id_subcateg=69)

Cheers Charlie

Cheers,

Does the Penrite classic come in various grades?

[vnx205]

The Penrite site says:
Classic Engine Oils are a range of premium mineral, SAE 30 / 20W-60 (Classic Light), SAE 40 / 25W-70 (Classic Medium) & SAE 50 / 40-70 (Classic Heavy), full zinc, low detergent engine oils designed specifically for petrol and diesel fueled cars, trucks & motorcycles manufactured between 1950 and 1989.

[inken_dave]

The Penrite site says:
Classic Engine Oils are a range of premium mineral, SAE 30 / 20W-60 (Classic Light), SAE 40 / 25W-70 (Classic Medium) & SAE 50 / 40-70 (Classic Heavy), full zinc, low detergent engine oils designed specifically for petrol and diesel fueled cars, trucks & motorcycles manufactured between 1950 and 1989.

Is it a bad idea to put a detergent oil in an older engine? I like the idea of slowely cleaning out some of the buildup, but not if it clogs up the oil pickup or attacks the old oil seals?

[JDNSW]

Any oil you can buy today will be superior in all respects to the oil the engine was designed to use. Provided that you do not try lengthening the oil change intervals it is unlikely to make any difference which oil you use.

One word of caution - if the engine has been out of use since the 1960s, it is quite possible that it has an accumulation of sludge that may be mobilised by the higher level of detergent in any oil you can get today. This may block oilways and cause serious damage. Of course, if the engine has been completely overhauled, this is not an issue, provided cleaning while apart has been thorough.

John

[gromit]

The old monogrades stuck the dirt to the inside of the motor and you used a flushing oil to clean it out before the oil change. Modern oils (mono & multi-grade) use detergents and carry the dirt in suspension.

If the engine is an unknown quantity either use a flushing oil or buy some cheap 20W50 oil and run it for a while and then drain and then refill with the oil of your choice.

A 20W50 oil designed for older engines should be OK. As JDNSW mentioned, any modern oil, even something from the supermarket, will probably be better than what was available at the time the vehicle was built.

I buy in bulk from a blender (no-name, no-marketing, so reasonable cost) and I asked for the correct grade for my Series 1. The owner of the company explained that they could blend it for me but using a slightly more modern spec (available off the shelf) would not harm the engine. At the time it was about $75 for 20litres although their prices have increased recently.


Colin

[chazza]

I have read quite a few articles on the web that advocate the use of zinc in oil for older engines, here is one;

"My opinions come from several decades as an oil company rep. the thing you need to keep in mind on the new engine is to use ZDDP. this is the anti wear additive that is no longer in engine oils. if you don't use it in an engine with flat tappets the cam and associated parts will be the first thing to self destruct. you need at least 1200 PPM of ZDDP..." from a member of the Sunbeam Alpine Owners Club of America.

For that reason, and because Penrite appear to agree, I won't be a using a "modern oil" in my Alpine, or in my Series 1. For the small difference in cost, compared to the expense of a new camshaft and followers, I will stick with a formulation that is designed to protect those components,

Cheers Charlie

[JDNSW]

...... use ZDDP. this is the anti wear additive that is no longer in engine oils......

Cheers Charlie

And was not in the oils that were available when your Series 1 motor was designed and built. Perhaps one of the reasons why Series 2 engines have roller cam followers?

John

[inken_dave]

Is the cartridge oil filter for the 2.0 four engine, the same as the 2.6 six engine? I'm asuming it is? I have a few left so that would be good!

[gromit]

I have read quite a few articles on the web that advocate the use of zinc in oil for older engines, here is one;

"My opinions come from several decades as an oil company rep. the thing you need to keep in mind on the new engine is to use ZDDP. this is the anti wear additive that is no longer in engine oils. if you don't use it in an engine with flat tappets the cam and associated parts will be the first thing to self destruct. you need at least 1200 PPM of ZDDP..." from a member of the Sunbeam Alpine Owners Club of America.

For that reason, and because Penrite appear to agree, I won't be a using a "modern oil" in my Alpine, or in my Series 1. For the small difference in cost, compared to the expense of a new camshaft and followers, I will stick with a formulation that is designed to protect those components,

Cheers Charlie

Charlie,

Some interesting stuff on the interweb about zddp.
The amount used seems to be tied up with the rating (SC, SD etc.). Has been reduced over the years partly because it causes problems with catalytic convertors.

ZDDP: When, Where, What, Why, How? - Engine Builder Magazine (http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/03/zddp-when-where-what-why-how/)

Colin

[chazza]

And was not in the oils that were available when your Series 1 motor was designed and built. Perhaps one of the reasons why Series 2 engines have roller cam followers?

John

Possibly not - what reference are you referring to?

This quote from Colin's link seems to contradict your statement from an earlier post; "Any oil you can buy today will be superior in all respects to the oil the engine was designed to use." JDNSW

"Some of today’s motor oils can have strong negative effects on older, non-roller lifter design engines as we all have found. It becomes more important as valve train loads increase to use oils that are designed specifically for flat tappet camshafts, as in the use of high performance camshafts and high-pressure valve springs.

Dave Sutton’s sources for this column include Lake Speed, Jr – Certified Lubrication Specialist & Member of the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers; The American Petroleum Institute web-site; Main GF-5 Site Home (http://www.gf-5.com) website; and the “SAE Automotive Lubricants Reference Book.” You can reach Dave at dsutton@enginebuildermag.com."

Anyway, I don't know much about the subject at all, except that there is considerable evidence that the ZDDP is the best bet for the S1 engine. Interestingly in Colin's link, it mentions that damage has been done to roller-follower engines by modern motor oils!

Cheers Charlie

[JDNSW]

When this engine was designed (1940), and went into production (1947), lubricating oil was straight mineral oil without additives - differences between lubricating oils depended on the source of crude oil and the cuts used in blending.

Additives did not appear in oils until the 1950s, and specifically enabled engine designers to design with higher pressures between moving parts. Specifically, this applies to flat cam followers against camshafts, which became a critical location as higher loads became necessary as heavier valve springs coped with higher maximum (and average) rpm. Which is exactly what is pointed out in the quote in the last post. The Series 1 engine was not designed to require this sort of lubrication, and does not have a "high performance camshafts and high-pressure valve springs".

The use of ZDDP will provide perhaps improved lubrication, but the degree of improvement will be imperceptible, as the pressures and speeds involved are not high enough.

John

[chazza]

When this engine was designed (1940), and went into production (1947), lubricating oil was straight mineral oil without additives - differences between lubricating oils depended on the source of crude oil and the cuts used in blending. Agreed

Additives did not appear in oils until the 1950s, and specifically enabled engine designers to design with higher pressures between moving parts. Specifically, this applies to flat cam followers against camshafts, which became a critical location as higher loads became necessary as heavier valve springs coped with higher maximum (and average) rpm. Which is exactly what is pointed out in the quote in the last post. Agreed; however; in Colin's link it was also pointed out that ZDDP significantly reduced wear on steel upon steel contact. Just because it was not available earlier on, does not mean that it will not have retrospective benefit.The Series 1 engine was not designed to require this sort of lubrication, and does not have a "high performance camshafts and high-pressure valve springs". Agreed

The use of ZDDP will provide perhaps improved lubrication, but the degree of improvement will be imperceptible, as the pressures and speeds involved are not high enough.Imperceptible in what sense? If it prevents premature wear well-and-good.

John

As you mentioned in an earlier post, the S1 suffered frequently from worn-out camshaft and lifters; so-much-so that Rover designed the roller-lifter 2 1/4 litre engine, which solved the problem. Using oil with a ZDDP additive is not only going to give more anti-scuff protection to a S1 engine than it could have originally had, but is also cost-wise, an insignificant improvement for an owner to make.

Using any modern motor oil is not not always the best thing for an old engine.

I will stick with Penrite's recommendation,

Cheers Charlie

[rick130]

ZDDP isn't the best anti-wear/EP additive, but it's the most cost effective.

As mentioned, modern oils generally use depleted levels of ZDDP (but not eliminated !) for longer cat life.
Anything with a GF-4/5 'fuel economy' designated oil is a no-no for a flat tappet engine IMO, but a good diesel engine oil works well.

There are modern additives including tin napthanate and boron ester additives that probably work better than ZDDP, (and late spec HD diesel oils are loaded with them) but the general public only knows about ZDDP.