Best livestock farming handy to Melbourne?

[DT-P38]

I know most of this is going to sound really naive to the true experts, but I am doing some "tree change" research and (silly me) I trust the input from this wonderful community...

So where is the best VALUE (as in return for your $) livestock farming within an hour or so from Melbourne? Thinking mainly sheep with a few head of "table" cattle for self and extended family.

How big a commitment (land and $'s) is required to be making money in the first few years?

Would one require much training beyond working with good neighbours and local community experts (vet's, buyers/sellers, locals a the pub, etc)?

Any thoughts/ideas appreciated.

Cheers, Dave.

P.S. If I take my LR's to a farm will they breed too?

[Disco Muppet]

Can't help as far as locations in your area but I can tell you...

We have 15 sheep on 5 acres, and they really need more. They're just pets to us but it's still a big commitment in terms of upkeep, and that's just for 15....

You will not make money from farming, unless you're at a commercial level, or you manage to market all natural gluten soymilk caramel frappe-latte no added anything type produce to silly hippies willing to part with absurd sums of cash.
SWMBOs family run a small heard of cattle (sub 100) and that's a lot of work. And a lot of expense.
It's one thing to run a few for teh lolz or to eat but making money from farming doesn't really work like that.
We get by with just good advice and friendly neighbours, but our neighbour is a vet so that helps...

[33chinacars]

Sorry Dave but unless your going in for a few 100 acres you will only be loosing money. Even then you will need a job off farm.

Sheep to much up keep in my mind.

Beef could work. But again will take a bit of capital to get started. Long term plan.

I was a " small time " dairy farmer for 35 + years. Only milked 60 - 80 cows. That's not really enough these days . Was about 30 years ago but then I didn't have any overheads. + the wife worked as a nurse part time.

Due to a back injury had to get rid of milkers & slowly change over to beef. So you could say I've been broke for the last 2 years.

So unless you can find a real niche market and value add . Do lots of research. The old saying goes ." If you want to make a small fortune from farming start with a large one. " O and did I say.Do lots of research.

If you do decide to go down the beef route stick with the main breeds . Angus, Murray Grey or Hereford.

Gary

[reachjatt]

Interesting article something along the lines what Gary said earlier. Both dairy and meat industry is now numbers game.

US milk tsunami could swamp NZ dairying | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/opinion/10012907/US-milk-tsunami-could-swamp-NZ-dairyin)

[Hogarthde]

Living in the country can be a really wonderful experience, especially with kids, engaging with animals, i,e. cattle horses .fowls ,dogs , bombing around in old landies , appreciating native fauna and flora and vagaries of weather.

However ,to reiterate Muppet and Gary, you will never become viable.

But don't be discoureged by mere filthy lucre, get a few Weekly Times and continue your research. All the best.

dave

[Chops]

We used to run a small 100 acre farm with just sheep on it, and it's just not worth the effort commercially.
We had varying numbers of sheep, from as low as 100 up to 300+ lambs. Didn't seem to matter how hard we tried/planned etc, we still had to buy in feed, and the more animals you have, the more feed you need.
Then you need shearing shed/plant etc to handle them.
Unless your willing to invest big dollars in Super Fine Merino or something similar,, you won't get enough back from either meat or clip to pay the rates, let alone a loan.

My SIL has 14 acres and has a menagary (s?) of animals on it including eight or so sheep (killers) and a few cows (killers). John her partner has decided the sheep are going and to just keep the cows, as they are easier to handle.

I'm sorry to sound so glum about, but that's why so many farmers have bit the streets for work.
Having said all that, I'd give quids to have a few acres and grow all my own food, from a decent vegie patch to sheep for killing, and a cow for milk. Sometimes, in this scenario, you can trade and work together with neighbors to help each other out a lot, and live almost cost free as far as food goes.

[Don 130]

If you're hell bent on having a go with sheep despite what the previous answers have said, could I suggest you go for a breed of sheep that sheds it's wool and doesn't need mulesing etc., instead of the more common breeds. Even then, you'll have lots to keep you busy.

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestock-parasites/control-lice-haired-and-fleece-shedding-sheep

Self-shedding sheep silence the shears - ABC Western Plains NSW - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/09/14/3590338.htm)

and a personal comment here, Dorper/merino cross lamb is superb eating.
Don.

[mike123]

As for location I can't help on that front but from my experience:

You should plan at having off-farm income. Try not to have any debt on the property. The banks will like to see the off-farm income before they'll loan money for it unless it is really a very productive property and you can demonstrate that you have experience with rural enterprises. Always consider the worst case - drought going of for several years. Never go into a rural property with rose coloured glasses. No sooner do you get a couple of good seasons then whamo the drought comes along and your back to square 1 (or square 0 as fences will still need to be maintained, vet supplies,...). Your input costs are rising every year and income isn't typically rising at the same rate for farming enterprises. ABARE 25 years ago indicated the future of farming would be larger enterprises and it has pretty much played out that way. Then with the purchase of a property you may find that you'll need to purchase various pieces of equipment - tractor, slasher, spray rig, tools, generator, welder, carry-all, .... Walk in walk out purchases can be a bonus with that aspect as long as it is the right equipment for your needs.

Beef cattle is an easier enterprise maintenance wise than sheep.

In saying all of this you could investigate small niche enterprises such as a small stud operation (eg, Belted Galloways) or look at essential oils, honey,...

Lifestyle is the plus on a farm for a family. Just make sure that the family is thinking the same way as you and go into it with open eyes.

(also make sure you have a good water supply - I prefer permanent creeks that can't be easily contaminated.)

[digger]

[COLOR="Navy"][SIZE="3"]
If you're hell bent on having a go with sheep despite what the previous answers have said, could I suggest you go for a breed of sheep that sheds it's wool and doesn't need mulesing etc., instead of the more common breeds. Even then, you'll have lots to keep you busy.

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestock-parasites/control-lice-haired-and-fleece-shedding-sheep

Self-shedding sheep silence the shears - ABC Western Plains NSW - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/09/14/3590338.htm)

and a personal comment here, Dorper/merino cross lamb is superb eating.
Don.

STAND BY FOR AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT.


(sorry this covers a double post :) )

[digger]

If you're hell bent on having a go with sheep despite what the previous answers have said, could I suggest you go for a breed of sheep that sheds it's wool and doesn't need mulesing etc., instead of the more common breeds. Even then, you'll have lots to keep you busy.

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestock-parasites/control-lice-haired-and-fleece-shedding-sheep

Self-shedding sheep silence the shears - ABC Western Plains NSW - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/09/14/3590338.htm)

and a personal comment here, Dorper/merino cross lamb is superb eating.
Don.




If you do go these and are anywhere near anyone who has merinos then you will be rubbing them the wrong way immediately!, If its thought any of these sheep have mingled with any merino stock (eg got into neighbours property etc) their whole wool clip will be assumed contaminated and same with breeding stock.

I only know one bloke who went this way and he has been treated as though he is a leper in the area he is in (all merino breeding and wool area)

It will also exclude merinos on that property in the near future after theyve been there...

Good luck..
have you thought about plants? (flowers/etc..)

[33chinacars]

Wasn't trying to put you off Dave . Just the realities of farming . Yes the life style can be fantastic & I wouldn't like to live anywhere else.Wouldn't raise kids anywhere else either. But & this is a big but you still have to be financially viable..Job off farm

I've got 250 acres & about 35 Dairy x Beef cows. Am I making any money . NO:(.

Just had a visit from a Rural Financial Councillor. He reckons I would make more money by leasing the property out.

A few acres is a great place to raise a family. Run a few beef cows for your own meat. Fruit trees & a veggie patch. Basically self sufficient.

I start to kill my own beef about 15 years ago. Even with getting a butcher to cut it all up / mince etc it worked out at about $2 -3 / kg. That's everything. Steak / roast / mince / sausages ........ There has been a couple of times when I didn't have one to kill so bought a steer off a neighbour. Still cheaper than going to the butcher every week. Would last us nearly 12 months . Just need a couple of big freezers.

On the plus side gives you some where to play with your toys( Landies ) :p :p

Gary

[DT-P38]

On the plus side gives you some where to play with your toys( Landies ) :p :p Gary
Big motivator! I my top 3 priorities is shedding.

[460cixy]

As digger said have a think about some small crops flowers can be pretty good along with crops like beans peas ect when harvest by hand you can get two or three good picks from a crop also things like tomatoes are good we used to pick and pack all our cherry tomatoes our selves then simply sold to the local cold stores but to do this water is Vital weather you go in to sheep cattle or crops I can't stress that enough

[DeanoH]

As others have said before me Dave you'll never make a quid this way, especially if you're looking 1 hour from Melbourne. The land prices/mortgage interest would kill you before you start.

But if it's lifestyle you're after for you and yours then it can be a very rewarding 'sea change'. We moved to the country 35 years ago and bought 5 acres in West Gippsland though it is rapidly becoming urban fringe. We bought a small block amidst larger blocks which gives us plenty of 'buffer room' without actually having to own the surrounding land. :D
At the time our purchase criteria was permanent water, power and phone, within 20 Km of a largish town/hospital/railway etc., partially wooded and not flood prone. It took us four year to find and we haven't looked back.
A great lifestyle for us and the kids but not all 'beer and skittles'. You know your neighbours and they know you which is good but if you think you can have secrets (a 'liason' with the neighbours missus :eek: :wasntme: for example) don't even think about it. In the country everyone knows everyone's business. This can be the total opposite to city living. Another big change is that your kids will need to be driven around a lot more than when living in the suburbs, everything is further away, and whilst push bikes are good, fast traffic on windy dirt roads with no footpaths adds to this. Another difference is that there are less 'playmates' per square Km so making, keeping and socialising with their mates can be very difficult, also adding to your taxi duties.
When the kids get older and obtain their driving licenses and jobs it is a relief (until they lose one or both) and then its back to being a taxi driver again, no public transport in the bush. :(
Don't get me wrong here I'm not knocking the country life, I wouldn't swap mine, just pointing out some differences to urban dwelling.

As to livestock, as others have suggested, steers are a lot less trouble than sheep who next to chooks have to be the stupidest animals ever created. They might taste nice, but dumb as and a lot of work. Crutching, drenching, lambing, shearing and keeping safe from predation or wandering can make them a lot of work compared to cattle. Pigs are good, very clean and generally easily managed but can be 'messy' particularly during the wet months.

My brother in law (the vet) has a very apt saying................"When you have livestock, you have dead stock", which can be a costly and difficult fact and often not considered until too late. :(

Living in the country can definitely be 'The Good Life', it is for us and hopefully will be for you too .


Deano :)

[isuzurover]

...I have a few relatives who are farmers (beef and pineapples), have friends and close relatives who work for the Ag department and currently have a work project that has me visiting about 80 farms over the next 9 months.

...We are also thinking of buying a small farm (and currently (or have in the past) raise(d) and slaughtered our own pigs, ducks, geese).

The more farms I visit the more I realise how much training you need to run a farm successfully. There is a lot you need to know to do things properly. Lots of for sale signs - often forced by the bank in WA farms, despite last year being the best year in about 20 years for grain. As others have said, you will not make money (unless you have lots of training and several million $$$ to invest).

In our case we worked out that we would need to buy at least 300 acres to reliably make the $20k p.a. from beef cattle. That is one of the tests the tax department apply to differentiate a hobby farm from a business.

Most farms I have been to in WA have had 1 or more people working off-farm in order to make ends meet.

[SLOWBOAT]

One of my riding buddies 2 years ago purchased a house & 94 acres in the north of Victoria to have a lifestyle change. Leased 60 acres to the neighbour but could not find enough work (plumber) so sold at a small loss and now works all over Australia for one of our mates.
My cousin has 3300 acres in the Shire of Bass some bush and plenty of water. She runs 380 sheep and breeding cattle (not sure of breed) to sell yearlings at the markets. They have their own trucks to transport livestock. A couple or years ago her husband passed away suddenly and left her to run it all on her own. She now has her daughter living back home and breeding and adjisting horses as there is more money in that and she can do the bulk of the work.
PS. Always had trouble getting a shearer to shear all the sheep as 380 is classed as a very small herd and not viable to send shearers.

[Tote]

We're doing something similar, 2 years ago we bought 350 acres with an old house and shearing shed on it in a very neglected state 40 minutes drive from where we live. It is financed in a manner that we can afford to do nothing with it and it would have no impact on our lifestyle.
We have spent about $30k on it over the last two years ( not counting finance for the purchase) and have not made a cent off the place and don't expect to have stock on it for maybe 12 months if all goes well. We might have improved the capital value by $30k on a good day
The main reason we bought it was to give the kids the same upbringing that my wife and myself had growing up on farms
We have also saved some money on firewood
My aim is to get the place to the point where we are making $20k a year which will mean that the tax dept should consider this a significant enough contribution to my income to allow me to deduct some of the farm inputs from my off farm income.
We are planning to do this with 200 to 300 sheep which the property should be able to sustain without supplimentry feeding.
Do I believe that the farm is ever going to be a commercial success? no, but the lifestyle benefits are really rewarding for us

Regards,
Tote
Sent from my Nexus 7 using AULRO mobile app

[Graeme]

Have you considered nut trees? I don't know the economics these days but many years ago we started to look into the various options which seemed very good for small acreages, albeit only for suitable environments.

[Mick_Marsh]

Get a property out east. Use an acre to grow saffron.

[AndyG]

I have been looking at pheasants and other game birds. The numbers potentially look good on a few acres. But once you commit, that's it for 365 days a year.

[D110V8D]

What they all said. Haha

We moved onto a small acreage nearly 3 years ago now. Since then I have spent big money re-fencing the place, building chicken runs, pig pens, sheds and all the rest and I have done all the work myself. Not paid any tradesmen and still spent massive dollars.

We have bred and killed our own chickens, sheep, pigs and bought a young cow to fatten for meat. With the amount of money I have spent getting it all up and running I reckon I've paid twice as much (probably more) for our meat in the time we have been here. The longer we do it though (now that it is all done) the cheaper it becomes.

We grow a heap of veg, make passata every year, dry and store veg, preserve other things. We've planted fruit trees which will take time to mature. We haven't been to the butcher for at least 10 months for pork, beef or lamb. Need to do another run of chickens soon. :D

To be honest it is a great lifestyle. We will never be going back to the city. The kids love it but it is different. Like others have said lots of driving kids here and there. If you need to head out to the hardware store or whatever it's not just down the street. You tend to plan better, buy things in bulk, pay for delivery sometimes because time is money and all that.

You won't be making money from farming. You need another income to make it happen. Pay off the property as quickly as possible and really live the good life.

Good luck with it!:cool:

[Bigbjorn]

The Tax Office has guidelines delineating the level of production that determines whether your "farm" is a hobby or a viable business. Hobbies are not tax deductible. If you are receiving an Allowance/Pension or plan to claim one, Centrelink generally follow the same guidelines as the ATO with some exceptions. Many deductions allowed by the ATO are not allowed by Centrelink who endeavour to determine true income not artificially reduced taxable income.

As a former Western Queenslander, I get some wry amusement from people talking of a few acres and a handful of livestock. Generally accepted nowadays up in the West and North-west that you need 120,000 acres to make decent living out of the sheep and wool job given current prices. This area covers bad seasons and low prices. Many big runs were sub-divided into ballot blocks in the 50's-60's when it was thought that 55,000 acres was the size for a family property. High prices and good seasons maybe. Many (most?) wool cockies now are cattlemen, no sheep except maybe a few killers. Cattle are usually sold at a reasonable price, require much less labour, fewer and less expensive fences, and so on.

When times got tough for the wool cockies and they started looking for town jobs, there was much resentment from the local workers. Jobs were never plentiful in these areas.

[reachjatt]

If you want to stick to animal husbandry, have you thought of Deer Industry. I have never heard of this being done on large scale (otherwise, i have not been informed). And if i am not mistaken this shouldn't require lot of grazing land depending on animals offcourse (You may need to consider fencing cost though). More information can be found on DIAA Home (http://www.deerfarming.com.au)

[DeanoH]

If you want to stick to animal husbandry, have you thought of Deer Industry................................


Crikey reachjatt !!:eek: You obviously weren't around the rural Victoria in the 80's - 90's. Deer farming was supposed to be the biggest thing since sliced bread. Thousands (probably millions) of dollars were spent in establishing deer farms for a non existent venison market. The fencing contractors made an absolute killing, no one else did though except perhaps the deer 'stud' breeders who were far too smart and just provided (at vast expense) the core breeding stock for this non existent market. When was the last time you did the meat shopping and bought venison ? Another part of the big deer scam, (sorry industry) was to provide 'antler felt' to the European market in the wake of Chernobyl and the irradiated reindeer herds.

It never ceases to amaze me how dumb people can be............'A fool and his money are soon parted' describes the whole 'venison bubble' perfectly.

In the end deer farmers just opened their gates and let the deer roam into the bush, increasing the feral deer problem and damage to farming crops. At least the deer shooters get something out of it. :)
Emu oil was another great money making scheme but err ................. where's the market ?, there wasn't one. Olives I think was next but that was a dud too, not nearly the tax off sets the proponents espoused but people threw lots of money this way and didn't listen to the tax department.

Deano :)

[Mick_Marsh]

Crikey reachjatt !!:eek: You obviously weren't around the rural Victoria in the 80's - 90's. Deer farming was supposed to be the biggest thing since sliced bread. Thousands (probably millions) of dollars were spent in establishing deer farms for a non existent venison market. The fencing contractors made an absolute killing, no one else did though except perhaps the deer 'stud' breeders who were far too smart and just provided (at vast expense) the core breeding stock for this non existent market. When was the last time you did the meat shopping and bought venison ? Another part of the big deer scam, (sorry industry) was to provide 'antler felt' to the European market in the wake of Chernobyl and the irradiated reindeer herds.

It never ceases to amaze me how dumb people can be............'A fool and his money are soon parted' describes the whole 'venison bubble' perfectly.

In the end deer farmers just opened their gates and let the deer roam into the bush, increasing the feral deer problem and damage to farming crops. At least the deer shooters get something out of it. :)
Emu oil was another great money making scheme but err ................. where's the market ?, there wasn't one. Olives I think was next but that was a dud too, not nearly the tax off sets the proponents espoused but people threw lots of money this way and didn't listen to the tax department.

Deano :)
Don't forget ostrich farming. That was a big thing in the '90's too. How many restaurants have you seen recently with ostrich omelettes on their breakfast menu?

[reachjatt]

Crikey reachjatt !!:eek: You obviously weren't around the rural Victoria in the 80's - 90's. Deer farming was supposed to be the biggest thing since sliced bread. Thousands (probably millions) of dollars were spent in establishing deer farms for a non existent venison market. The fencing contractors made an absolute killing, no one else did though except perhaps the deer 'stud' breeders who were far too smart and just provided (at vast expense) the core breeding stock for this non existent market. When was the last time you did the meat shopping and bought venison ? Another part of the big deer scam, (sorry industry) was to provide 'antler felt' to the European market in the wake of Chernobyl and the irradiated reindeer herds.

It never ceases to amaze me how dumb people can be............'A fool and his money are soon parted' describes the whole 'venison bubble' perfectly.

In the end deer farmers just opened their gates and let the deer roam into the bush, increasing the feral deer problem and damage to farming crops. At least the deer shooters get something out of it. :)
Emu oil was another great money making scheme but err ................. where's the market ?, there wasn't one. Olives I think was next but that was a dud too, not nearly the tax off sets the proponents espoused but people threw lots of money this way and didn't listen to the tax department.

Deano :)

Thanks for enlightening me Deano:eek:. Yes you are dead-on in saying i wasn’t on this part of continent in 80’s or 90’s, hence the lack of knowledge. I can’t comment on what happened 25 years ago. Lot has changed since interims food demand and supply. (Probably it was the case off blindly following the sheep)

All I know, last time i went to butchers for venison i was told it will be cheaper to get a license buy a rifle and hunt my own (Not talking about farm gate value or carcase but speciality butchers with retail value ranging from $25/kg for hind quarter cuts to $45/kg:mad:). It was far more expensive than any other red meat on the shelf.

Anyhow, since we are only discussing the options as it may not be viable/feasible for some, hence it’s just a merely a suggestion. In my theory you can do business today with yesterday’s idea as long as you are smart about it.

Nav:).

[Bigbjorn]

Crikey reachjatt !!:eek: You obviously weren't around the rural Victoria in the 80's - 90's. Deer farming was supposed to be the biggest thing since sliced bread. Thousands (probably millions) of dollars were spent in establishing deer farms for a non existent venison market. The fencing contractors made an absolute killing, no one else did though except perhaps the deer 'stud' breeders who were far too smart and just provided (at vast expense) the core breeding stock for this non existent market. When was the last time you did the meat shopping and bought venison ? Another part of the big deer scam, (sorry industry) was to provide 'antler felt' to the European market in the wake of Chernobyl and the irradiated reindeer herds.

It never ceases to amaze me how dumb people can be............'A fool and his money are soon parted' describes the whole 'venison bubble' perfectly.

In the end deer farmers just opened their gates and let the deer roam into the bush, increasing the feral deer problem and damage to farming crops. At least the deer shooters get something out of it. :)
Emu oil was another great money making scheme but err ................. where's the market ?, there wasn't one. Olives I think was next but that was a dud too, not nearly the tax off sets the proponents espoused but people threw lots of money this way and didn't listen to the tax department.

Deano :)

Yes, people invested in tax farms for the deductions. The animal/crop was immaterial. I sometimes think that the entrepreneurs who sold these schemes never really intended that the enterprises actually produced anything.

The deer farms in the Brisbane Valley are now non-existent and we have feral deer in the Brisbane suburbs as a result.

[Mick_Marsh]

So, what are you after, Dave? A house to move the family to for a sea change (or, in your case, a farm change) or a holiday farmlet?

Buy this, put up shedding and rent out shed space for peoples projects.
626 Blackwood Road Newbury Vic 3458 - House for Sale #114865791 - realestate.com.au (http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-vic-newbury-114865791)
You could even keep a few ponies for the kiddies and a few miniature goats.
Close to Wombat so you could camp every night or sit around the arken ****en in the back yard after a fun day breaking the P38 in the bush.

[AndyG]

Always the option of hydroponics, good cash crop, but you will need a lowered D4 for deliveries to King St, some gold chains and somewhere to bury the cash.:wasntme: