457 visas, good thing or not

[bob10]

Now, I'm just curious. I was sent an E-mail, they want me to sign a petition. About 457 visas taking work away from Australians. Does any one what the go is. This came with it, Bob


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ http://www.aulro.com/afvb/wlmailhtml:{3E8AC80D-7FFC-4347-B0AB-12807D0668FA}mid://00000015/!x-usc:http://d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net/photos/0/ai/nj/KiAInjUAZjCcnjW-556x313-cropped.jpg (wlmailhtml:{3E8AC80D-7FFC-4347-B0AB-12807D0668FA}mid://00000015/!x-usc:http://email.change.org/wf/click?upn=L4wUyO6b13sjdmUXmXaF3ImVTD6G6GFyhYT-2F9kLEoC-2BmF1nNSHrxCUS2kggEah6VB4fxk0LM8Pz52l48wpj6ZXM-2FcJrNTqfVReFG44WVpJicxKCPg8WDllMp0zLBkwGBeNLo0sul 0qCzQAZhNEO9CmAP4PQH6LQwDkeU4S3KB9Z9QsZiJiIEvc5XcA Od5UJ96WtiyHUvWNXvnhxcSCWYyDeYPC-2FUtToMr6x1W-2BYBccUEbgnwyNpsx0HpN5a9PTtBCXXXZpJHl6T52V2VZeHxI9 1heNg7tSX8o2zKxkzNC-2BJ5Pey0Um9Kh-2Boyvz7-2FgN0WBy-2B11lK7-2FeIdIDhFV-2FZLGFajavLrwk59-2BRwKVWgNpBo-3D_onXnJGlRddgwjq9DW5HkbVylIP1OUoL4LeSbJiEVxzy-2B8LglBZF6MSE4H4E6Qd6wTpO3zNNo7HIonvD-2BeNgUTvjqzJYj-2B0QHXZqx2AXJ-2FEjOqsS07q3ejUthbNhI0soLpTXL2apc-2BlCn7pNwvxWoiDTFbazj2x0qDVgqRzITokP-2BM2IhlJf4D0YOpHL9u6BX-2B-2BZRZfGKQr5b2ZOcNuk-2BpUQf1xLE9lkYyUKbeevotuDwun3SMQ0Vf8PHRjqZ6GLBvnAZ-2FTh4A6PhSDAbs7dhKWsiTp4C4Yo8h86fu6WBfgSHyGTLQtuvW pjfm-2BNJJrwh) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ Federal Government: Review 457 visa for nurses in Australia (wlmailhtml:{3E8AC80D-7FFC-4347-B0AB-12807D0668FA}mid://00000015/!x-usc:http://email.change.org/wf/click?upn=L4wUyO6b13sjdmUXmXaF3ImVTD6G6GFyhYT-2F9kLEoC-2BmF1nNSHrxCUS2kggEah6VB4fxk0LM8Pz52l48wpj6ZXM-2FcJrNTqfVReFG44WVpJicxKCPg8WDllMp0zLBkwGBeNLo0sul 0qCzQAZhNEO9CmAP4PQH6LQwDkeU4S3KB9Z9QsZiJiIEvc5XcA Od5UJ96WtiyHUvWNXvnhxcSCWYyDeYPC-2FUtToMr6x1W-2BYBccUEbgnwyNpsx0HpN5a9PTtBCXXXZpJHl6T52V2VZeHxI9 1heNg7tSX8o2zKxkzNC-2BJ5Pey0Um9Kh-2Boyvz7-2FgN0WBy-2B11lK7-2FeIdIDhFV-2FZLGFajavLrwk59-2BRwKVWgNpBo-3D_onXnJGlRddgwjq9DW5HkbVylIP1OUoL4LeSbJiEVxzy-2B8LglBZF6MSE4H4E6Qd6wTpO3zNNo7HIonvD-2BeNgUTvjqzJYj-2B0QHXZqx2AXJ-2FEjOqsS07q3ejUthbNhI0soLIYM2SeMWHmsba1-2BjhP3AVfPCkduQIEPEty52QvO2KE8bCFsY9-2FclDxcxcBzyPGpRYBmeP5jvsVo3txZ2ib8Lj6F1WANXqMFEuy a0H7VaBuwkNhTJpQO4VEPnw6YLf-2FYdIsvpMPtxwS2vN0Nt5IsGx-2FEXl5q1LqNwhYbaIl2C-2Fx3IJpHCYvtEveuIw0lsJA5-2B)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ By Esther Inglis Brisbane https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ Sign Esther's Petition
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ Gaining employment is competitive, getting a job as a graduate even more so. Faced with changes to our countries budget, it is a bleak outlook for the thousands of nursing graduates each year who are desperate to be employed and are losing out on jobs to nurses on 457 visas.

Nationally, a breakdown of unemployed graduates reveal the state of the industry:
SA: The ANMF estimates that in South Australia alone, 280 nurse and midwife graduates were unable to secure jobs after university last year.
QLD: Only 600 of 2500 nursing graduates were able to secure jobs this year.
TAS: 60 per cent of nursing graduates were unable to find work last year.
VIC: 800 nurse and midwife graduates were unable to secure employment last year.
NSW: The ANMF says the NSW public hospital sector is the largest employer of nurses on 457 visas.

[trog]

I am looking into this now. The plan is to get a substitute 457 visa for myself and collect the difference between my wage and the pittannce the new fellow would be paid. The hard bit is finding the right candidate to pass off as myself. Two or three of these schemes should put me into a good financial position. Of course for a modest fee I would rent out living space under my house.:D

[Hoges]

I know of a motor dealership which had no-one trained on the latest electronics in a luxury Japanese hybrid. There were less than half a dozen highly trained techs in the whole of Australia. They eventually found one bloke ...Japan factory trained.. working on the "Asian subcontinent". When he finally arrived and settled in there was a bit of "friction" in the workshop. Apparently he worked a full 8 hrs every day and would seek other work when things were slow on his end. Damn!:eek:
Australia is several thousand engineers short in most disciplines, especially electrical, there's a dire shortage of mathematicians... where else do you find such people if not for 457 visas?

[V8Ian]

Are not 457 visas to make up a shortfall in labour? Last year in Queensland almost 3,000 nurses were forced to take voluntary redundancy. Many of these workers are still seeking work that will utilize their qualifications.
457 visas are merely a tool to white ant workers' pay and conditions. :mad::mad::mad:

[Chucaro]

Ian, the work for the dole have the same purpose, if there is a job to do them employ people not try do do that jobs with cheap labor at the cost of the dole :mad:

[V8Ian]

I know of a motor dealership which had no-one trained on the latest electronics in a luxury Japanese hybrid. There were less than half a dozen highly trained techs in the whole of Australia. They eventually found one bloke ...Japan factory trained.. working on the "Asian subcontinent". When he finally arrived and settled in there was a bit of "friction" in the workshop. Apparently he worked a full 8 hrs every day and would seek other work when things were slow on his end. Damn!:eek:
Australia is several thousand engineers short in most disciplines, especially electrical, there's a dire shortage of mathematicians... where else do you find such people if not for 457 visas?

How about we train people here..............what a brilliant and novel idea that would be.
If employers had shown a little forethought rather than being tightarsed parasites there would be no skill shortage.

[ramblingboy42]

well the 457 visa at least is a visa and the workers are registered under it and have to comply with certain conditions

there are thousands of illegal migrants in Australia , unregistered but taking work where they can.

on a worksite on the Brisbane River a few years ago , there seemed to be an unusual number of asian plasterers and the alarm was raised and Immigration officers came on site.....some chose to swim the river.

....but....I cannot accept or tolerate Australian workers being made redundant and 457 visa workers taking their place.

[Tank]

Workers on minesites Australia wide are losing jobs to supposedly skilled 457 visa workers. First most mining companies have stopped hiring FIFO Australian workers, which means these workers now have to find accommodation and pay ridiculous rents where they work as well as having to pay rent or mortgages back home. Or move to a town near the job where crap houses sell in the millions and rent is extremely high, if you can get it.
Now that Abbot's in his bosses Gina Rienhart and Chevron et al are insisting that the requirement for 457 Visas workers be Skilled should be dropped so as they can bring in as many coolies as they can. Gina and Chevron et al reason that they can't get Australian workers to work in their remote mines, so they should be allowed open slather on cheap Asian workers, of course they will provide them with accommodation, yet Aussies have got to find their own digs, thick edge of the wedge, Regards Frank.

[sheerluck]

I have no objection to 457 visas, after all I arrived here on a 457 visa. :D

However, I believe that a reasonable and auditable effort must be made to secure local labour before being permitted to go to outside countries.

I work in a very specialised area, and a position that I needed to fill in my team recently had zero suitable local candidates. So I ended up employing a candidate from India (and he has been absolutely perfect). This position is not concerned with cost, but has compulsory skills and experience requirements. There is no ability to train - the skill level is rare, and would imply that we had two people with those skills in one place.

[discovery39]

Very much NOT in favour of the 457 'system'.
All the industries I have, or do work in are completely ruined by this system.
Car Washes/Detailing, Oz Post, Couriers, are the first things the immediately spring to mind.
By having these people in this 'system', it is dragging wages down (within my Industries) and setting an unfortunate new standard in the way things are being done.
Its bloody disgusting and appalling.

[Chucaro]

I have no objection to 457 visas, after all I arrived here on a 457 visa. :D

However, I believe that a reasonable and auditable effort must be made to secure local labour before being permitted to go to outside countries.

I work in a very specialised area, and a position that I needed to fill in my team recently had zero suitable local candidates. So I ended up employing a candidate from India (and he has been absolutely perfect). This position is not concerned with cost, but has compulsory skills and experience requirements. There is no ability to train - the skill level is rare, and would imply that we had two people with those skills in one place.

Dave, just curios, how the skilled people in the job managed to obtain the required skill?
Why now there is not an ability to train and was before to train the people that are in the job now?

[Chucaro]

Very much NOT in favour of the 457 'system'.
All the industries I have, or do work in are completely ruined by this system.
Car Washes/Detailing, Oz Post, Couriers, are the first things the immediately spring to mind.
By having these people in this 'system', it is dragging wages down (within my Industries) and setting an unfortunate new standard in the way things are being done.
Its bloody disgusting and appalling.

Mate that it is what some political and employers groups are aiming, just have to read what one of them have said regarding the complaints about the budget cuts , quote:
"Aussies should do a tour of Asia & live like locals to put these 1st world complaints re budget in perspective,"

[ramblingboy42]

Mate that it is what some political and employers groups are aiming, just have to read what one of them have said regarding the complaints about the budget cuts , quote:
"Aussies should do a tour of Asia & live like locals to put these 1st world complaints re budget in perspective,"

Who made that statement?

That person(s), should be made to live in 3rd world conditions themselves , without their 21st century goodies around them.

[trog]

The ABC show Two Men In China shows an interesting side to the Asian way of things. Hope this doesnt breach any veiws of political bias

[Chucaro]

Who made that statement?

That person(s), should be made to live in 3rd world conditions themselves , without their 21st century goodies around them.

THIS (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/23/george-christensen-shorten-death-threat) :censored: MP

[sheerluck]

Dave, just curios, how the skilled people in the job managed to obtain the required skill?
Why now there is not an ability to train and was before to train the people that are in the job now?

Arthur, each of my team members have very specific specialisations. It's the sort of role that takes 10years plus to be able to consider yourself to be experienced at it. The market for these roles in Australia is very small, as in there probably would be less than 10 of these roles in the whole country. There is a much greater market in other countries.

The lack of ability to train is partly because we are mandated by the TGA to maintain appropriately skilled and qualified people in these functions, so we can't have just a trainee, and the workload is insufficient to support both a skilled person and a trainee (and you would hope and expect that the people involved in the manufacture of medicines are of the highest calibre). I have enough of the skills my team do to be able to get by, but not enough to be able to train someone with only basic knowledge.

[Chucaro]

Thank you Dave for the reply.
How sustainable can be that business if there are not chances to train new people when the old ones retire of just change the job?
Bit of a worry I guess.

[frantic]

Originally, the 457 visa system was one I supported, problem is it has been barstardized by certain people of a political persuasion.
Originally, it was for 2 types , the highly, rare skilled type being brought in for specialist jobs and training up locals. The second was for seasonal workers dong fruit picking flown in for 2-4 months from the pacific islands as there was insufficient labour in regional areas.
Since then it has been used to destroy wages and conditions along with safety and health. Back near the end of a certain longest pm's term there where plans to bring in 457 visa truck drivers for interstate runs. Other instances where when a certain shipping company whose tug boat operators are in the news currently ,slashed the wages in 04-05 to the minimum, on their specialist discharge ships in their EBA and got around it by employing all their crews on 457 visas. 8 years later and the 457 workers are still not up to the level of the old crew.
There are numerous cases of 457 visa workers hired for one job but actually doing another, or doing illegal hours , or being paid way below minimum wage. Several have been prosecuted by the unions, without which nothing would have been done. One was a local Hindu temple requiring "specialist" tillers for the roof, who they paid about 1/4 the minimum wage after charging them rent to live in a tin shed.
We currently have almost 700,000 unemployed ,and any employer that asks for imported 457 workers should have to prove there are no local options, not the current joke; I advertised a 16hr a day , FIFO job for about 3/4 of minimum wages and nobody applied, I must get 457 workers.

Sheer luck, from the sounds of it , your position is true to the original idea and good for both you and our country, pity as chucaro said we couldn't get more trained up in your specialty.

[trog]

A beer generated thought, 457's to replace the current , and future elected MP,s. A FRACTIONof the pay and no super. ! A win in my book

[bob10]

I guess , being fair, 457 visas can be necessary for some businesses. But it seems the smarties are rorting the system. How else can you explain Australians going to university and graduating, only to find 457 visa workers taking their jobs? University graduates want to work. They spend up to 4 years in study, can any one explain to me why we need 457 workers when we have sufficient graduates to do the job? In case you missed the numbers, here are the stats for nurses. Bob


Nationally, a breakdown of unemployed graduates reveal the state of the industry:
SA: The ANMF estimates that in South Australia alone, 280 nurse and midwife graduates were unable to secure jobs after university last year.
QLD: Only 600 of 2500 nursing graduates were able to secure jobs this year.
TAS: 60 per cent of nursing graduates were unable to find work last year.
VIC: 800 nurse and midwife graduates were unable to secure employment last year.
NSW: The ANMF says the NSW public hospital sector is the largest employer of nurses on 457 visas.

[sheerluck]

Thank you Dave for the reply.
How sustainable can be that business if there are not chances to train new people when the old ones retire of just change the job?
Bit of a worry I guess.

Yes it is a worry Arthur. Short term, we can have remote cover from one of our operations overseas. Medium term, we fly our specialists around to cover a site in need.
If we're down a person for longer than a few weeks, we're stuffed. :(

[Pickles2]

OK, I'm a dummy, not ashamed to admit it. I'M NOT.
So, can someone who knows the FACTS, (are you there Chuc?), tell me what a 457 visa is, & what it entitles a person to.
Anyone who has a different view, please feel free to contribute........nicely......once I know the FACTS, I may be that person.
Pickles.

[discovery39]

A beer generated thought, 457's to replace the current , and future elected MP,s. A FRACTIONof the pay and no super. ! A win in my book

The we'd all be really ****ed!

[bob10]

There is a petition for the nurses, if you are interested I guess the best thing is to PM me, Bob

[bob10]

OK, I'm a dummy, not ashamed to admit it. I'M NOT.
So, can someone who knows the FACTS, (are you there Chuc?), tell me what a 457 visa is, & what it entitles a person to.
Anyone who has a different view, please feel free to contribute........nicely......once I know the FACTS, I may be that person.
Pickles.


Read to your hearts content. Please don't turn this into a soap box. Too important for that Bob


This may be relevant;


Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/rort-fears-as-457-visa-loophole-reopened-20140311-34kgr.html)

https://www.google.com.au/#q=457+visas+in+australia

[85 county]

457 is a skills visa.
IE if you have the skills that are on the immigrations skills list, then you may get a visa to come work in Australia
There are other factors as well, IE your skill have to be compatible with Australian stds. that’s why you fined Indian doctors working as cleaners at night. Waiting on there skills assessments. Some skill sets are just not inline and some are the same. and some are even higher than Australia.

Next is language. IE a level of English high enough to do your job. example a doctor will have a higher or will need a higher level of English than a welder.

and an employer as a sponsor. ie some one who is guaranteeing a job and responsibility.
There is nothing new about this Visa. LOL 1/2 of SAPOL are poms on this visa.

it is a little bit different to an immigrant work visa. as the threshold is a bit lower and you require a employer sponsor.

I believe the debate is over proposed changes to the visa requirements
i do not know what these changes are as yet. since no one has posted them i doubt anyone else knows either

[Chucaro]

OK, I'm a dummy, not ashamed to admit it. I'M NOT.
So, can someone who knows the FACTS, (are you there Chuc?), tell me what a 457 visa is, & what it entitles a person to.
Anyone who has a different view, please feel free to contribute........nicely......once I know the FACTS, I may be that person.
Pickles.

Pickles I do not have an idea why you pick on me for a clarification when the government page have heaps better English than mine :D
Look HERE (http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx) and from there HERE (http://www.immi.gov.au/Services/Pages/employer-sponsored-workers-online-applications.aspx)

I am sure that you will understand the writing better than mine ;)

Cheers

[bob10]

Very much NOT in favour of the 457 'system'.
All the industries I have, or do work in are completely ruined by this system.
Car Washes/Detailing, Oz Post, Couriers, are the first things the immediately spring to mind.
By having these people in this 'system', it is dragging wages down (within my Industries) and setting an unfortunate new standard in the way things are being done.
Its bloody disgusting and appalling.


The loophole has been opened,Bob



Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/rort-fears-as-457-visa-loophole-reopened-20140311-34kgr.html)

[85 county]

Read to your hearts content. Please don't turn this into a soap box. Too important for that Bob


This may be relevant;


Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/rort-fears-as-457-visa-loophole-reopened-20140311-34kgr.html)

https://www.google.com.au/#q=457+visas+in+australia

snap, thanks bob

so it pulling the teath of immigration service

[bob10]

OK, I'm a dummy, not ashamed to admit it. I'M NOT.
So, can someone who knows the FACTS, (are you there Chuc?), tell me what a 457 visa is, & what it entitles a person to.
Anyone who has a different view, please feel free to contribute........nicely......once I know the FACTS, I may be that person.
Pickles.


Why do you feel the need to single one person out, and why do you post such provocative posts? Can't you just stick to the facts, without getting personal? Bob

[Chucaro]

.....................I believe the debate is over proposed changes to the visa requirements[/FONT][/COLOR]
i do not know what these changes are as yet. since no one has posted them i doubt anyone else knows either

Are THIS (http://www.mondaq.com/australia/x/264012/work+visas/Significant+changes+to+the+subclass+457+visa+schem e+as+of+1+July+2013) the proposed changes that you are refering to?

[discovery39]

The loophole has been opened,Bob



Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/rort-fears-as-457-visa-loophole-reopened-20140311-34kgr.html)

Thanks Bob, that cheered me up.:(

[sheerluck]

OK, I'm a dummy, not ashamed to admit it. I'M NOT.
So, can someone who knows the FACTS, (are you there Chuc?), tell me what a 457 visa is, & what it entitles a person to.
Anyone who has a different view, please feel free to contribute........nicely......once I know the FACTS, I may be that person.
Pickles.

A 457 visa is a temporary visa, entitling the holder (and his/her family) to reside and work in Australia, for a contracted period (up to a maximum of 4 years). That person is not entitled to any Commonwealth benefits, Medicare access only where there is a Reciprocal Healthcare agreement with the visa holder's country (such as there is with the UK, so I had Medicare cover). The visa holder is sponsored by a set employer. If they choose to leave that employer, then they have 30 days to find a new sponsor, leave the country, or apply for a different type of visa.

Some states do not allow 457 visa holders access to free state education. The minor tax perks of the visa status were removed a couple of years ago. There are mandated minimum pay rates for each class of worker (though I'm sure it will come as no surprise that these minimums are frequently well below market rates).

You could argue that the 457 holders are frequently the ones being exploited. The "30 days to get out" rule is particularly harsh.

[frantic]

OK, I'm a dummy, not ashamed to admit it. I'M NOT.
So, can someone who knows the FACTS, (are you there Chuc?), tell me what a 457 visa is, & what it entitles a person to.
Anyone who has a different view, please feel free to contribute........nicely......once I know the FACTS, I may be that person.
Pickles.

Here's where it was changed last year; by labor
Changes to the Subclass 457 program (http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/changes-457-program.htm)

Now abbot has rolled it back so the scam can start again, 800miners in one hit is a bit suspect.

Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/rort-fears-as-457-visa-loophole-reopened-20140311-34kgr.html)

[Pickles2]

Why do you feel the need to single one person out, and why do you post such provocative posts? Can't you just stick to the facts, without getting personal? Bob
I asked a simple, honest question. of someone, who I believe, whether I agree with him in some instances or not, is honest in his responses.
If you cannot contribute in answering my question, then please don't bother to post?
If however, you would like to describe what your description of a 457 visa is, I'd be interested to hear it.
Pickles.

[Tote]

In the IT industry there are instances of contractors not having their contracts renewed if they are Australian and of people on 457 visas being kept on. However if I was running a company and I was facing hard times I have to admit I would retain the lower paid workers who can deliver the same productivity.
Does anyone know the implications for a sponsor who terminates a 457 visa holder (if any)

Regards,
Tote

[bob10]

I asked a simple, honest question. of someone, who I believe, whether I agree with him in some instances or not, is honest in his responses.
If you cannot contribute in answering my question, then please don't bother to post?
If however, you would like to describe what your description of a 457 visa is, I'd be interested to hear it.
Pickles.


This is my description of a 457 visa. Bob



Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/rort-fears-as-457-visa-loophole-reopened-20140311-34kgr.html)

https://www.google.com.au/#q=457+visas+in+australia (https://www.google.com.au/#q=457+visas+in+australia)

[sheerluck]

......Does anyone know the implications for a sponsor who terminates a 457 visa holder (if any).....

None really. "Officially" the sponsor is supposed to help the return the visa holder to their country of origin.

[bob10]

Ya gotta luv it, Bob.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/317.jpg

[frantic]

I asked a simple, honest question. of someone, who I believe, whether I agree with him in some instances or not, is honest in his responses.
If you cannot contribute in answering my question, then please don't bother to post?
If however, you would like to describe what your description of a 457 visa is, I'd be interested to hear it.
Pickles.

In a growing number of cases it's purely wage cutting and theft of jobs from locals. We went from 20,000 in 1998 to 120,000 in 2007,8 then a drop for 2 years to 70,000 ish then the trend took off in 11-12 to 120,000 and was heading that way in 2013 till the changes by Julia .
If your VERY VERY generous and say half( GFC downturn still had 65,000 visas issued) are genuine, that's 65,000 jobs a year we are losing, along with their partners who come here and can work. That's with 700,000 unemployed.
So if we turn up the red tape on this issue instead of cutting it , unemployment could be reduced by 10% , 65,000 people each year!
This would save well over a billion in welfare, good budget idea?:angel:

[discovery39]

Just watching Lateline, talking about 457 visas in nursing.
What next. Where is this going to stop!?!?!?!

[ramblingboy42]

The we'd all be really ****ed!

Would we now?

Just as foreign workers are often prepared to do a better job for less money , don't you think "qualified" politicians could come in to the country on a 457 visa and do a much better job than the current crop of unqualified , pathetic drivel that try to pass themselves off as leaders.

Just think....bring them here on their merit.

No more elections.

No more bull****.

Just HONEST , hardworking people doing their job as they should and honestly earning their incomes.

.....spoken in jest.....but as they say.....many a true word....

[bob10]

Just our luck we would get Putin :eek: Bob :p

[frantic]

Have been doing some interesting reading, apparently the MUA are reducing pay demands to have either a no 457 visa or locals first employees policy in their eba, seems they have learnt from the past. Wonder how long it will take other industries to follow suit?

[AndyG]

My two cents
For true specialist skills where the employer pays the correct salaries, yes.
For relatively common skills, no. But how much of the demand is location based. For example plenty of nurses in Bne but none in Quilpe, (hypothetical). This leads on to the Q, if said nurse refuses the job, should the Govt be obliged to pay benefits,

I had no job, now in PNG working. Get home 3 times a year. But I have a job.

BTW Chinese company here doing construction has reportedly imported prisoners to do the job. They never leave the site. I wonder what visa that would be.

[AndyG]

Not sure why, but this made me think of Albert Facey and A Fortunate Life, maybe we should all read it, look in the mirror, and realize how lucky we are.

[AndyG]

Just realized I am on the equivalent of a PNG 457 Visa, employer pays k10,000 for the privilege, and I have various obligations, like organizing 250 man days of training so far this year, and a detailed succession plan.

But of course there are complaints about foreigners getting jobs here.

[sheerluck]

One thing that shouldn't be ignored is that a number of 457 visa holders use it as a pathway to a permanent visa, and then citizenship (as I did).

Any dedicated, hard working member of society should be welcomed, not feared.

[olbod]

In the early eighties we came back to Sydney because our boy was diagnosed with cardiomyalitus. RIP.
Anyway during this time I was the manager of a small business that employed seven Australians. By cripes they were a headache, never new if they would all turn up for work, go down to the pub at lunch time and I would not know if they would all come back.
Even when I got rid of the worst, the new were no better.
It was of course unskilled labour doing a boring job.
I was talking to one of my clients and he told me he could solve all my problems. So we set it all up.
Friday afternoon I told them all they were sacked and paid them off

Monday morning I had a full crew of Vietnamese including two women.
For the next three years I did not have one problem.
If one had to have a day off they would tell me and they would arrange for a casual to come in and I would pay them both.
One of my blokes had to leave so the Vietnamese brought in a Cambodian replacement. He worked hard but he didn't like whites and started to get abit cheeky and causing some friction. So without telling me the Vietnamese sacked him and we got a new Vietnamese Lad. He He.
The women used to call me Mr Bob and would bring me in a hot lunch as well as their own. I loved them. Betty and I were often invited to weddings and things and we all had equal respect for each other.
I would not hesitate to tell the story and do it again.

A couple of the ex dickhead Australian employees went to the DPI and complained. Two officials came to visit and spent a couple of hours with me. They left with fatter wallets and the dickheads had no case.

Kid died then so it was time to leave and head back to the scrub.

PS: The Bro never forgot my experience and often told it to other employers.
In one of his businesses he recently has had trouble with some of his skilled employees, and he has had to replace them a few times.
A friend of his in the same industry had the same problem and told The Bro how to fix it.
Problem solved, his new Indian skilled worker is great and all the others have pulled up there socks with regard to doing a fair days work. To be fair these blokes were good at their job, new their stuff but fell down in other areas, like not cleaning up after themselves and leaving it to others or causing discord with their attitude. People will only take so much before things start to fall apart.
His young counter staff are a different headache, they dont know, cant be told and dont want to learn.

By the way none of his or mine were, are, working for less than the award.
In fact they were, are being paid above.

Nothing to do with 457 but I thought I would tell you.

[Homestar]

I've got nothing against the visa system in theory. If we have shortages and can't fill them locally, then bring in others.

My issue is the rorting that goes on - this example with the Nurses is typical. Why have we got unemployed Nurses everywhere and still have 457's in there?

I'm sure there are areas of the country that can't get local Nurses, so that's fine, but there are 100's of them working in the cities and locals can't get a foot in the door.

The proof should have to be ongoing that they can't find a local to do the job - if a local person applies for any job advertised - and they are suitably qualified, then the 457's should take a back seat. Not saying that every local applicant would be suitable - even if qualified, but there are also plenty that are.

While most using the 457 Visa system are doing the right thing, there are people out there abusing it to their advantage.

[Sirocco]

Im currently on a 417 holiday/working visa and currently looking to drop $7000 on my skilled migrants visa soon (self sponsored as appose to work sponsored) I have been filling in paperwork for months now.

your government has a skills occupation list (SOL) which is what you have to prove to be able to gain this visa, so to be clear, it is your government that is allowing 457 workers here and its not cheap to sponsor them. Not only do they have to be on the list, but they must be qualified and prove it.

Now, I am British and a qualified (honours degree) geologist with 8 years experience in Geotechnical engineering but I still had to:

- Sit an english test ($400)
- Get a comprehensive medical including AIDS test ($400)
- Get police record checks sent from the UK ($100)
- Write a 5000 word assignment detailing my experience and how I have applied certain aspects to become an Engineer ($1000)
- Certified copied of my degree, transcripts, certificates ($200)

Once I get the nod back from the engineering authority in Australia I can drop the big $$$ on putting my application through. If granted, I will be a permanent resident.

So as you can see, It is not cheap or easy to just get granted a 457 or anything other than a tourist visa. If you want to experience it, try getting a job in England :D

Not defending illegal immigrants, or immigrants trying to get in through loopholes just saying that it is not as easy as throwing money at it and flying out here.

Now, does anyone have a problem with me applying to become a resident? :)

G

[sheerluck]

.....Now, does anyone have a problem with me applying to become a resident? :)

G

Yeah, get out you bludger. :Rolling:

[frantic]

Do I say good luck, or congratulations sirocco, but the issue isn't people with masters in specialist areas , rather the large numbers doing jobs that Australia has an abundance of people qualified in that field. Be it nursing, tourism, IT,cooking, construction or mining and ships crews there seem to be to many cases of using a cheaper import who is often underpaid.
This is in reality a rather stupid action by government, as employing a local on a higher wage is a win -win as they not only reduce the welfare cost but if a local is on $10,000 more than the 457visa 30-49% of that will be collected in tax.
Now the question is what would motivate the Govt to create more unemployment, collect less tax by making the wages lower?
The yearly intake of 457 is greater than 1% of our unemployed.

[bob10]

I've got nothing against the visa system in theory. If we have shortages and can't fill them locally, then bring in others.

My issue is the rorting that goes on - this example with the Nurses is typical. Why have we got unemployed Nurses everywhere and still have 457's in there?

I'm sure there are areas of the country that can't get local Nurses, so that's fine, but there are 100's of them working in the cities and locals can't get a foot in the door.

The proof should have to be ongoing that they can't find a local to do the job - if a local person applies for any job advertised - and they are suitably qualified, then the 457's should take a back seat. Not saying that every local applicant would be suitable - even if qualified, but there are also plenty that are.

While most using the 457 Visa system are doing the right thing, there are people out there abusing it to their advantage.


Spot on. No one would deny a company who genuinely could not get workers, using the 457 visa system. It's those who rort the system, for personal profit, [ or government budget bottom line] that should be brought into line. It seems coincidental that the loophole was opened before the budget , and the huge cuts in health , for example. The cynic in me can sense a plan, coming to fruition. Or not :angry: Bob

[V8Ian]

What tax do 457ers pay? Do the get the taxfree thresh-hold?

[Sirocco]

Do I say good luck, or congratulations sirocco, but the issue isn't people with masters in specialist areas , rather the large numbers doing jobs that Australia has an abundance of people qualified in that field. Be it nursing, tourism, IT,cooking, construction or mining and ships crews there seem to be to many cases of using a cheaper import who is often underpaid.
This is in reality a rather stupid action by government, as employing a local on a higher wage is a win -win as they not only reduce the welfare cost but if a local is on $10,000 more than the 457visa 30-49% of that will be collected in tax.
Now the question is what would motivate the Govt to create more unemployment, collect less tax by making the wages lower?
The yearly intake of 457 is greater than 1% of our unemployed.

But you cannot get a 457 UNLESS you have a qualified skill on the skilled occupation list (SOL). The list is also known as the skills shortage list. You cannot just come into Australia, pick up a 457 and work in a supermarket.

G

[85 county]

But you cannot get a 457 UNLESS you have a qualified skill on the skilled occupation list (SOL). The list is also known as the skills shortage list. You cannot just come into Australia, pick up a 457 and work in a supermarket.

G

have you read the list??

Hair dresser. etc

[Homestar]

But you cannot get a 457 UNLESS you have a qualified skill on the skilled occupation list (SOL). The list is also known as the skills shortage list. You cannot just come into Australia, pick up a 457 and work in a supermarket.

G

No, but some people are bringing in bucket loads of sponsored 457's in the fields of Nursing, Mechanics, etc while locals are left looking for work - or worse, are being made redundant then having 457's replacing them at cheaper rates. I shouldn't be happening as the system was not set up with this in mind, but some are exploiting the cracks and doing just that.

[sheerluck]

What tax do 457ers pay? Do the get the taxfree thresh-hold?

If they are residents for tax purposes (https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Income-and-deductions/How-much-income-tax-you-pay/Are-you-an-Australian-resident-for-tax-purposes-/) then they get the tax free thresholds and same tax rates as every other tax payer.

If they aren't residents for tax purposes, such as if they are still maintaining a home in their home country, then they don't get the tax free threshold.

[discovery39]

What tax do 457ers pay? Do the get the taxfree thresh-hold?

Tax? What's Tax? Do you mean Taxi?

[V8Ian]

Just our luck we would get Putin :eek: Bob :p
You don't feel that would be an improvement? :twisted:

[Sirocco]

have you read the list??

Hair dresser. etc

yes, I had to make sure I was still on it as we planned to come to Aus over 4 years ago and that list changes quite regularly.

Hair Dressers need to be qualified also.


No, but some people are bringing in bucket loads of sponsored 457's in the fields of Nursing, Mechanics, etc while locals are left looking for work - or worse, are being made redundant then having 457's replacing them at cheaper rates. I shouldn't be happening as the system was not set up with this in mind, but some are exploiting the cracks and doing just that.

The Government control the number of 457's granted and in what sectors, they chose wether to grant or deny applicants based on the evidence presented to them. They would know the numbers involved in nursing, mechanics etc. SURELY they have a handle on it vs. Australian residents employed in those sectors?

G

[Homestar]

yes, I had to make sure I was still on it as we planned to come to Aus over 4 years ago and that list changes quite regularly.

Hair Dressers need to be qualified also.



The Government control the number of 457's granted and in what sectors, they chose wether to grant or deny applicants based on the evidence presented to them. They would know the numbers involved in nursing, mechanics etc. SURELY they have a handle on it vs. Australian residents employed in those sectors?

G

Unfortunately they have no idea, hence the issues and the investigations going on by various media outlets at the moment to highlight this issue to the government. With pending massive cuts to the public sector I doubt things will improve any time soon.

[frantic]

yes, I had to make sure I was still on it as we planned to come to Aus over 4 years ago and that list changes quite regularly.

Hair Dressers need to be qualified also.



The Government control the number of 457's granted and in what sectors, they chose wether to grant or deny applicants based on the evidence presented to them. They would know the numbers involved in nursing, mechanics etc. SURELY they have a handle on it vs. Australian residents employed in those sectors?

G

No they SURELY don't. Up until Gillard changed the laws last year companies could put down any number, then hire as many as they liked, there was one instance, yes a miner, where they said 100 over 4 years, within 18 months they had over 800 on 457 visas. Other labour hire companies where bringing them in as one skill, but using them as another where it was a wage benefit to the company, in other words cutting pay.
Abbott has changed the laws back so it's open slather again. No checks or balances so if they are being used as cheap labour, there is nothing that can be done.
Here is a list, yes they may need qualifications to be a hairdresser or dental hygienist or teacher, issue is there are thousands unemployed in Australia with those skills. For example in NSW teachers USED to get priority if they did a stint in a remote rural communitie, so uni grads would do 3-5 years in a small town and some would love it and stay while others got to the top of the list to get a job in their favourite area, they would also get other incentives to be in those remote areas. That's just been cut back, wonder why?
http://www.immi.gov.au/Work/Pages/skilled-occupations-lists/sol.aspx

[mools]

....hence the issues and the investigations going on by various media outlets at the moment to highlight this issue to the government.

The media don't conduct investigations to highlight issues to the government, period. The media conduct investigations to sell print copy and/or advertising space to generate profit.

The media preferentially highlight certain issues in a manner and with such bias so as to appeal to the masses to generate the biggest revenue possible. Unfortunately many Australians of of such a disposition that in their eyes any form of migration is seen as a threat and to be distrusted. If you can lump 457 visas in the same group as boat people and asylum seekers you stand to sell a lot of copy / airtime on that basis.

IMO the 457 system has been good for Australia as it has let the government pick who and under what terms people can migrate here and to enable skills shortages to be met.

What I think would genuinely shock the portion of the Australian public that are predisposed to distrust immigration would be the proportion of 457 holders that convert their visas to permanent resident then to citizenship. That's saying something too as those very people seldom seem shocked by the internment and suffering of the vulnerable.

Ian.

[Chucaro]

The media don't conduct investigations to highlight issues to the government, period. The media conduct investigations to sell print copy and/or advertising space to generate profit.

The media preferentially highlight certain issues in a manner and with such bias so as to appeal to the masses to generate the biggest revenue possible. .................................................. .................................................. ...........
Ian.

The media conduct investigations to uncover a lot of issues that will be ignored or covered by government if they were not exposed.
We can name so many examples that they will overload the forum DB :)
Yes, I agree that there are bias reports by some of the private media which have financial interest by the owners to not expose the truth.

[frantic]

I posted this in the abbot coal terminal but it is more relevant here.

It really puts it into perspective that the uk have 64 million but only allow in 20,000 sponsored skilled visas compared to our 120,000 to 20 million population .


Originally Posted by AndyG
We currently have a system where a very large number of Australians work overseas. If you follow the logic of no 457, the corollary is no foreign work for ozzies.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Hmm, 30 seconds of google:
UK Immigration Services | UK Tier 1 Visas | UK Tier 2 Visas | UK Work Permits (http://www.workpermit.com/uk/uk.htm)
Guess what, UK has 2 types of visa, holiday workers, under 30 and the second is skilled sponsored, that have to be a position no local can fill, but here's the killer, it has an upper limit OF TWENTY THOUSAND! .
Not the 120,000 we bring here in a country with less than 1/3 the population!

Did some more numbers, UK net immigration is 212,000 ours is 195,000. Along with our 120,000 visa457 workers. I wonder what the reaction in the u.k would be if the Tories said we need more labour and increased their version of our 457, which is tier2, from 20,000 to 360,000???? (3x the population)

[mools]

I posted this in the abbot coal terminal but it is more relevant here.

It really puts it into perspective that the uk have 64 million but only allow in 20,000 sponsored skilled visas compared to our 120,000 to 20 million population .

Guess what, UK has 2 types of visa, holiday workers, under 30 and the second is skilled sponsored, that have to be a position no local can fill, but here's the killer, it has an upper limit OF TWENTY THOUSAND! .
Not the 120,000 we bring here in a country with less than 1/3 the population!

Yes but the two, UK and Australia, are not remotely comparable. Australia has a skills shortage that the UK does not. This may perhaps be due to of a couple of reasons; firstly people in the UK are, by and large, better trained and educated, secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the UK has a much larger talent pool to draw on than just it's citizens - it has the rest of the EU who's citizens are free to work in the UK should they wish unrestricted by any visa requirement. Australia on the other hand is not part of such a large economic alliance and has only NewZeland with which it has any 'free labour agreement' to try and fill its skills gap.

Ian.

[frantic]

Yes but the two, UK and Australia, are not remotely comparable. Australia has a skills shortage that the UK does not. This may perhaps be due to of a couple of reasons; firstly people in the UK are, by and large, better trained and educated, secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the UK has a much larger talent pool to draw on than just it's citizens - it has the rest of the EU who's citizens are free to work in the UK should they wish unrestricted by any visa requirement. Australia on the other hand is not part of such a large economic alliance and has only NewZeland with which it has any 'free labour agreement' to try and fill its skills gap.

Ian.

First point, wrong. Australia has a better level of education than the UK, we are 6th on the list for levels of education, UK is 16th. My phone won't paste :mad: it was from a site called nationmaster.com


Secondly the uk has a problem where more of the highly skilled jobs are going to non citizens and as a result of their EU membership over 10% of all new jobs go to foreigners. They are complaining about this, we are brining in about 20% of our newly created jobs to be filled from overseas workers, when in many cases we have the skills here.

[Sirocco]

Australia also has many types of work visa. I am on a holiday working visa now.

Not sure about Australia being 'more educated', that is not the impression I am getting from the population of Geelong anyhow :D (wasn't me).

I also could not replicate your result on that website, there are so many 'facts' you can't really come to any fixed conclusion. Interestingly Australia's average IQ is the same as Mongolia... according to that website. Says it all.

G

[Mick_Marsh]

Hair Dressers need to be qualified also.
It's beginning to sound like an Idea I heard that the Golgafrinchams hatched to get rid of an entire useless third of their population.

[frantic]

Actually the UK is not just complaining, for the first time in 100 years neither Labor or the Tories won an election. The EU vote was won by the UKip. Who are anti-EU and anti immigration. It has both major parties scared for the next national election.

[2stroke]

Yes but the two, UK and Australia, are not remotely comparable. Australia has a skills shortage that the UK does not. This may perhaps be due to of a couple of reasons;

Ian.
Self inflicted skills crisis. Back in the '80s there were many more apprentices, Queensland Rail would take in 15 electricians, 60 fitters, even more boilermakers. Then there was the QEC, SEQEB, and a number of factories (which no longer exist). When accountants took over the world, early '90s I guess, there were savings to be made by not training, minimizing maintenance (both staff levels and maintenance budgets) thus we've all fallen into this hole. Now that most public utilities are either in private hands or for sale there'll be much fewer young aussies trained.

[Mick_Marsh]

Self inflicted skills crisis. Back in the '80s there were many more apprentices, Queensland Rail would take in 15 electricians, 60 fitters, even more boilermakers. Then there was the QEC, SEQEB, and a number of factories (which no longer exist). When accountants took over the world, early '90s I guess, there were savings to be made by not training, minimizing maintenance (both staff levels and maintenance budgets) thus we've all fallen into this hole. Now that most public utilities are either in private hands or for sale there'll be much fewer young aussies trained.
Interesting points you make. It didn't just happen in Queensland.
And don't forget the closure of the technical schools.

Interestingly, this morning I heard on the radio a story highlighting a skills shortage in engineering and how they're having to get foreign engineers in on 457 visas. I know a little about this. I know a few engineers that are out of work and a few who have gone overseas for work due to the shortage of suitable employment here.
When I was made redundant a little over a year ago, the local people were laid off first. The theory was "when work picked up, it would be more expensive to get a 457 worker back than re-employing a local worker".
Oh, the people doing the bellyaching were the universities. The numbers of people doing the engineering courses are dropping. They're wanting government concessions so they can attract more students to their course.

[bob10]

Self inflicted skills crisis. Back in the '80s there were many more apprentices, Queensland Rail would take in 15 electricians, 60 fitters, even more boilermakers. Then there was the QEC, SEQEB, and a number of factories (which no longer exist).


My youngest son has recently completed a signals electricians apprenticeship with Q.R. . The only module left to be signed off, is what he calls the signals module. The holdup is because there are not enough tradesmen qualified to
teach the module, that can be spared from front line work. Bob

[frantic]

Self inflicted skills crisis. Back in the '80s there were many more apprentices, Queensland Rail would take in 15 electricians, 60 fitters, even more boilermakers. Then there was the QEC, SEQEB, and a number of factories (which no longer exist). When accountants took over the world, early '90s I guess, there were savings to be made by not training, minimizing maintenance (both staff levels and maintenance budgets) thus we've all fallen into this hole. Now that most public utilities are either in private hands or for sale there'll be much fewer young aussies trained.

The skills shortage was created in 96-97, Howard came in and axed the programs that made it cheap to train apprentices, along with other upskilling . There used to be a requirement to spend a certain percentage of wages on training along with kickbacks for apprentices.
This meant the accountants pulled the pin on all training. I started with BHP port k in 1995 after working in Sydney, for the next two years all of us could not find parking at the training centre as they used to put on 100-150 apprentices each year. By 99, 2000 it was down to 15-20 and for 5-6years, virtually zero, it was a ghost town.
It took 10 years for BHP/BSL to start playing catchup as certain trades took redundancy or retired but came back on 2-4 times their old pay as nobody else knew the specialist knowledge for certain items in the plant. There now would be 50-60 apprentices through a training company and keep the ones they need to cover redundancy and retirement.
We are setting ourselves up to fail again by slashing tafe and raising the cost of uni, this will drive course fees up so make it more expensive for companies to upskill their employees.