Ashcroft Vs Local

[nismine01]

I'm getting there, keep asking questions, keep getting good value answers helps make the right decision when push comes to shove.

Ashcroft certainly have their act together but is there a local company that can produce an improved/larger/better torque convertor that standard for the TD5 Disco?

A local (Adelaide) experienced auto trans company says, (do up the convertor to standard, it will be OK), but running gas plus I would like to make things better, certainly the anecdotal reports are encouraging.

Has anybody used an Australian company that you would be happy to report on the improvement gained and what was done, oh, and costish as well.

Torque Converter Technologies in Melbourne seem to have a similar TC upgrade, has anyone used this one?


Looking forward to some good feedback on this one.


:D

Mike

[nismine01]

Judging by the lack of response no-one has had a locally made/refurbished TC in their Disco.
I was hoping to pick up some local knowledge before having to commit to any one with my auto trans.
Ah well, I'll contact a few places and see if I can glean any answers and keep the site up to date with whatever I may find.

Cheers

:confused:

[rangieman]

A mate of mine used Torque Converter Technologies in Melb to make a converter from Gm gen3 v8 5.7 litre to a ZF good job and took a beating never failed
I know its not Td5 related but its a plug for said company;)

[Slunnie]

I tend to think that Ashcroft have done the hard work and its all bolt in and play with no dramas or cost blow outs rather than somebody else trying out an idea that they've never critically thought about, gearboxes in and out and it still not being quite right because it was their first one.

[twr7cx]

I, like may, have the Ashcroft unit. I don't understand why you would not go with a tried and tested product that has been around for a while now and got the results promised, rather than trying to reinvent the same thing.

Also to consider is that Australian manufacturing is very very expensive and would likely end up costing you equal or more than freighting the Ashcroft unit over.

[Thingy]

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.aulro.com/afvb/2057807-post4.html&sa=U&ei=opyKU46xJ4z4oAS784D4BQ&ved=0CAYQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGz0XmDpQgOxxHu-thcPT29OV8qfA

[nismine01]

And that is the way I have decided to go.

Thanks for the replies, they helped make up my mind, as did time and cost.

Ashcroft around Au $1150, TCT $960 & GST helped make up my mind especially as the car is booked in with TRS at Lonsdale for a tranny transplant in a week, TCT are making them as a stock item so supply is going to be OK. They have just started this, one is almost completed luckily as it will be completed in time for me.

I have been recording my fuel consumption so I will be able to keep track on any improvement in that, there have been reports on drive ability so a comparison from another perspective might be interesting.

Ah well, fingers crossed that I have done the right thing.

:angel:

Mike

[simmo]

Good on you for supporting a local company, and good on them for responding to the need at a comparable price. I hope they stand behind their product, and become as successful as Ashcroft.:)

[strangy]

I have bought a TCT unit for my TD5 Defender.
You will find most Transmission shops send their TC's off to someone like TCT to rebuild.
The attributes of a torque converter can generally be modified/provided/rebuilt by any competent specialist.
Torque converters are not the domain of Ashcroft
yet they are for TCT and others.
TCT do TCs for almost everything and have responded to requests from the market here in Australia for a modified unit, which is what most of us complain about the lack of, when it comes to local manufactures/ suppliers.

Note ! I'm not putting down Ashcroft at all, I have numerous parts of theirs on my truck and it is good gear. ( ha pun) I'm just pointing out some things to consider.

As Ashcroft were out if stock and TCT knew what was needed and were prepared to provide me the service at a competitive price with warranty it became a little easier to make a decision.
Now the truck isn't on the road yet with the new TC so a report will come later and not having driven either TC can only be what is experienced compared to stock.
TCT service was excellent and had no trouble taking the time to answer my questions.

I don't expect any issues at all and am happy to have the TC from an Australian specialist who I can call on during normal hrs and in the unlikely event of a problem, can send the TC to without the return shipping cost being the same as buying a new unit.

[nismine01]

Today I got my car (c'mon guys they are not trucks :)) back from Triumph Rover Spares with a low K (I hope) S/H auto trans.

TCT supplied the TC, they use a V8 body but to fit to a diesel, TD5.

Cost $1045, delivery within 2 days of ordering at $25 each way, total $1095. So, cost wise that's on a par with Ashcroft seeing as there is freight and non return of the old TC

TRS informed me that they had to do some work on the TC to make it fit properly (I will be advising TCT to ensure they are brought up to date on this).

I was also advised that the vehicle would be sluggish getting off the mark, "it will seem as though it's starting off in second gear", however driving home it seems good to me.

Another report when I have a little more experience with the unit.

Cheers

Mike

[strangy]

..... TRS informed me that they had to do some work on the TC to make it fit properly (I will be advising TCT to ensure they are brought up to date on this). Another report when I have a little more experience with the unit. Cheers Mike
What was the problem? Mine went straight in no issues.

[nismine01]

Rightyo now, I've had the new TC in for three months, what to report.

I was told by Chris at TCT that they use V8 TC for TD5 auto, larger, better lock up clutch, more oil capacity for better cooling.

I was told by the fitters that they had encountered a problem and it took them time to rectify it to enable the TC to fit in. I don't know what they did, I have asked TCT several times to investigate both for themselves and for my peace of mind but I have had no response. They were great at supplying the TC, all was quick and simple, but they have not been so good afterwards, not that I have a problem I would just have liked some feedback on a potential problem.

I was also told by the fitters (Triumph Rover Spares) that the vehicle would be or would seem slow off the mark, "like it's starting off in second gear" is what I was told.

I feel there are several areas where there is improvement, to me it does not seem to be slow off the mark and being that the TC has a stall speed of around 2200 RPM it is virtually locked when the LUC takes up, that surely must mean there is no load on the clutch, it simple engages so I would expect virtually no wear on the clutch.

The vehicle seems much quieter and when accelerating you get acceleration, not just a revving engine.

Fuel economy doesn't seem to have changed at all, I had expected an improvement but perhaps the fact that the motor is now loaded up rather than running freely has made a difference.

Am I :D or :( about the decision to put a special TC in?

Overall I believe it has made for a much better vehicle, if you are going to have a auto overhauled how much is the TC side of it worth, I was told in the vicinity of $1600, the TCT one was about $1200 inc freight to Adelaide, to me a much better option, I am very happy with the difference in the vehicle's drive-ability, I give it thumbs up all the way.

Cheers


Mike

[gavinwibrow]

x2 I concur there is an improvement

[Pedro_The_Swift]

hmm, from what I've read I thought the V8 TC would not physically fit,, maybe thats what they had to fix,,,
also this --
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/162206-importance-fitting-torque-convertor-correctly.html

[nismine01]

Yes Pedro that was my understanding, but the info from TCT was that size was what they had used on all their TCs for TD5s in the past.

Time will tell I suppose.

Mike

[strangy]

hmm, from what I've read I thought the V8 TC would not physically fit,, maybe thats what they had to fix,,,
also this --
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/162206-importance-fitting-torque-convertor-correctly.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/162206-importance-fitting-torque-convertor-correctly.html[/QUOTE) (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/162206-importance-fitting-torque-convertor-correctly.html[/QUOTE)[/URL][URL="http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/162206-importance-fitting-torque-convertor-correctly.html[/QUOTE"] (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/162206-importance-fitting-torque-convertor-correctly.html[/QUOTE)


Primarily the physical fit is based on the flex plate and bolt pattern.
The V8 and TD5 are quite different here.
Both Ashcroft and TCT remove the V8 converter drive ring/feet and weld on a new drive ring with the TD5 pattern.
That is essentially the issue with changing to bigger converter.
But....there are 2 size V8 converters.
The smaller of the V8 converters is the common TD5 upgrade.
Then there is a bigger V8 unit again which requires additional fiddling.
Its all on Ashcrofts website.
I don't know what extra internal stuff goes on between Ashcroft and TCT units.
Both boasting quality parts fitted etc. The stall RPMs and tech specs seem to be the same.

[twr7cx]

A heavy duty torque converter is desirable on a tuned engine for a few reasons :
1) Lower stall speed, there's little point in having a nice torquey engine if the converter is not transferring the drive and you are revving straight past it. A larger converter will reduce these revs and allow you to take up drive earlier which results in much more relaxed driving. This is by far the biggest advantage of upgrading the converter. Note these reduced revs are not to be confused with lower gear shift points, these stay the same as they are determined by the autobox ECU programming.
2) Less heat generation because of the lower stall speed and reduced 'slip'.
3) The converter has a lock up clutch inside and the smaller one struggles to cope with a stock engine, never mind a tuned one. This clutch can slip as you accelerate when it should be staying locked.
For the Td5 we are able to supply a heavy duty torque converter (T013 HD)...

...

The TD5 came out of the factory with the smaller of the three diameters of ZF converters, this HD converter is a modified medium bodied one made to fit in place of the stock small one.



< Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/miscellaneous/torque-converters/td5-heavy-duty-torque-converter.html) >


Torque Converter Upgrades
The ZF auto as used in the LandRover vehicles uses three different diameters of torque converter. Small. Medium and Large.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/1104.jpg

"Small" is used on the 300 Tdi, P38 diesel and the TD5. "Medium" is used on the 3.9, 4.0 and the later 4.6 P38. "Large" is used on the early 4.6 P38"s. Note the large converter can only be used with the stage 2 as it will only fit the 4HP24 front end.

A larger converter is desirable on a tuned engine for a few reasons :

1) Lower stall speed, there's little point in having a nice torquey engine if the converter is not transferring the drive and you are revving straight past it. A larger converter will reduce these revs and allow you to take up drive earlier which results in much more relaxed driving. This is by far the biggest advantage of upgrading the converter. Note these reduced revs are not to be confused with lower gear shift points, these stay the same as they are determined by the autobox ECU programming.

2) Less heat generation because of the lower stall speed and reduced 'slip'.

3) The converter has a lock up clutch inside and the smaller one struggles to cope with a stock engine, never mind a tuned one. This clutch can slip as you accelerate when it should be staying locked. In a TD5 the stock converter is the small one. If you have a stock engine, stick with the stock converter. If the engine has a mild tune then we would recommend upgrading to the medium diameter one, we have sold quite a lot and get very good feedback.

< Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/automatic-gearboxes/zf4hp22.html) >

For those that haven't seen before, they also offer some upgrades to the internals of the automatic transmission. With their Stage 2 upgrade you can actually fit the largest torque converter up to it...

[Modelsp]

I had made contact with TCT in late June
3 phone calls over a period of 5 days
Spoke to a gentleman who told me his girl was away
he would get back to me tomorrow,,>>>>Still waiting to this day

Alternatively i rang our local transmision specialists
and they told me to talk to TCE in melbourne
Totally different Story here
was given a complete rundown on what they do to L/R converters and the faults they find with them
all of the internals brazed and a fibre thrust washer replaced with a brass one
stall speed lowered and lockup made a bit lower RPM.
all up cost
$72 freight down
$500 for o/haul >>>12 months warranty
$49 return freight
took 10 days down and back from Wollongong
now that's service that people return to on a regular basis
>>>
>>>
>>>
As for TCT>>>Waiting for them to call back to this day
cheers
Paul

[eckolsim]

ModelSP,

Just to help me understand...

1. Was the above for the whole transmission reco?
2. Did they put a larger TC in or rework the same?
3. What did you have to do to ship the box?
4. Was your box in good order or was the quote open ended pending on their findings?
5. Did you pull out your transmission yourself, and if so, did you have a hoist/ramp?

I am on the verge of having to do the same.

Thanks
Simon

[twr7cx]

Simon


1. Was the above for the whole transmission reco?


Paul is just speaking about the torque converter. At $500.00 that's all you'll get reconditioned. You'd be looking at closer to at least $2,000.00 for a full trany reco and that's probably supplied only.


2. Did they put a larger TC in or rework the same?

The way that Paul wrote his post it made it sound like they rebuilt and modified the standard small torque converter rather than replacing with a larger unit. Interested to know more.


5. Did you pull out your transmission yourself, and if so, did you have a hoist/ramp?

I can't answer for Paul, but I have removed the automatic transmission on my D2a TD5 myself in the driveway with no hoist or ramps. It was a pain and requires a helper at a few points. Also requires some good balancing skills with the trolley jacks to raise and lower it.

[Modelsp]

Sorry for the unclear explanation.

1.It was only the converter that went to TCE,,and it was the standard converter out of the car,there were no faults with it when removed.

1a.The whole lot were removed with a modified engine crane that can lift it all out in one piece,with the rear of the car up on ramps for a better angle.
First thing done before removal was to put a 1/2" x 6" dyna bolt with chain loop in the garage floor at the back of the car and a safety strap around the rear diff to stop it running away,
remember you won't have any hand brake,, and as always SAFETY FIRST or they'll use your car for the Hearse.

2.the Transmission went to our local specialist whom i've known for 20yrs.
and it was completely rebuilt with all new parts.cost $2k,,again no faults known when removed.

2a.Transfer case also completely O/hauled,Bearings,thrust washers,seals and centre diff thrust washers.

3.The reason for rebuilds is that i have a fully rebuilt 4.6ltr to fit back in the car with a KentH180 cam(thanks Pedro),It will also have a Mark Adams(Thanks Pedro)engine management computer Upgrade.as well as a new item from Mark with a transmission computer upgrade.

4.Every Bush/Rubber/Seal and moving Part is being removed ,Checked and replaced if in doubt.

5.All of this for about 1/10th of the cost of a D4,,Not that i don't want one.:cool:

6.All of this done with slave labour(Me):D

7.End result will be a car that i know who to go to when something goes wrong,,The Slave:D:D:D

8.Total cost so far for all is just shy of $4.5k

9.I'll have an almost new Black D2a with 2 of everything for around $14k all up;);)One Happy Chappy.

cheers
Paul

[twr7cx]

So some slight confusion there Paul as this thread is based on the torque converter upgrades for the TD5 powered D2's (although the title gives very little information and no indicator of this). The V8 models use a different transmission (4HP22EH) and different torque converter.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

It will also have a Mark Adams(Thanks Pedro)engine management computer Upgrade.as well as a new item from Mark with a transmission computer upgrade.
Paul

I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts after run-in:ohyes::ohyes:;):cool:

[nismine01]

Well now.

In line with my latest post 'Out of warranty by six weeks' I have the following to report.

The secondhand automatic failed after 4.5 months, warranty was 3 months.

The transmission failed probably because of an overheating problem, the head gasket is currently being replaced.

My initial transmission had had a very hard life if the wear on the tow hitch and pin are an indication.

The TC clutch gave up and sent particles through the box, finances at the time meant fix as cheaply as I could but, I spent the money on an upgraded torque convertor from Torque Convertor Technologies in Melbourne, V8 larger clutch and lower stall speed that I have described elsewhere.

I have had ongoing over heating problems for some time and it has all come to a head (no pun intended) now, in view of the overheating and my attempts to overcome it I was still driving the car with the engine fan OFF as I was in the middle of trying to fabricate a frame to suit electric fans. Wrong wrong wrong, but I did and that probably had a bearing on the failure so soon.

Now TRS did look after me but there was a problem getting the torque convertor off the crank shaft extension, they had had trouble fitting it in the first place now they had to end up cutting the extension in half to get it off. Because of this they could not refit it, besides they didn't want to I think. They claimed that the TC was part of the problem.

Now, in my mind this is where dealing with a local company comes into it's own.

As strangy has reported to me.

"The original had a spigot with a very large chamfer to locate then an under cut following the location surface. (think exaggerated mushroom shape)
My TCT unit had the chamfer but no undercut which effectively created a larger locating surface area over the length of the spigot.

The undercut on the original gave less surface area to the spigot and allowed the torque converter a little extra angular movement when fitting.

This hasn't posed any issues for me and I did have to remove the box after I fitted it all up because I needed to fab custom oil cooler lines.

No probs removing or refitting. Though I think the TCT converter spigot requires more accuracy/care when lining up the box.

I would be very doubtful and surprised if the TCT converter was the cause of box failure. unless it came apart internally its a big call.

Reading your posts on this, I cant help wonder if the TRS guys were in a hurry.

IMO if the spigot locating hole wasn't thoroughly cleaned and lubed, combined with a longer spigot surface area and not quite optimum alignment when refitting, then the spigot could be damaged/burred and the problem could occur.

As a Fitter/Machinist in a previous era, I can only see the above as reason for the TC to be stuck, assuming spigot measurements were checked."

Now, everything said in the communique seems to be spot on, the new convertor is better made and ever so slightly different, but, it was fitted dry and slightly misaligned.

I have just been over to Melbourne with my TC and TCT have shown me the problem and, incorrect/poor fitting of an unknown better product was the problem. TCT have even taken back my TC to flush it out of the contaminated oil and you can't do that from overseas.

You can't beat that.

Overheating is what caused the 2hnd transmission to fail, nothing else.

I have nothing but praise for Torque Convertor Technologies, their service and knowledge is first class.

I was also able to observe some of their procedures, brazing the vanes in place and their quality seems up there with any.

Thanks again TCT.

Cheers

Mike :D