Low Battery level and dual batteries

[sean c]

I have an MY10 D4 with original battery (September 2010) and Traxide SC80 with an Optima yellow top. The system has been trouble free apart from getting 'low battery' warnings occasionally. It is my wife's daily drive of low km's with quite a few times of no driving so I was not too concerned about this. To overcome this I bought a Ctek 10 amp smart charger and wired it up to the main battery via the connector that came with the charger. Every so often I would just plug in the Ctek and give it a boost overnight.
Over the weekend I went to start the car and the computer screens went in to shutdown mode stating low battery. I could not start the car. The SC80 was flashing signalling that it had disconnected from the cranking battery due to low voltage, as designed.
I plugged in the Ctek and gave it a charge overnight. The SC80 signaled that it had reconnected with the cranking battery. The Ctek was up to the second last stage, which I thought was fully charged. One stage before trickle maintenance charge.
I tried to start the car next day after 18 hours on charge. The car did the same as previous day with screens shutting down and warnings on low battery. After several more attempts the car started and has started like normal ever since.
I brought it to Battery World and they checked out the battery. The technician mentioned it was reading the second battery so I unplugged the SC80 connector so he was only getting readings from the cranking battery.
After doing a hydrometer check he said the battery was about half charged. One cell had lower charge than the rest. I mentioned that the Ctek had indicated that it was fully charged by the LEDs being at the end of the line on the second last light.
The technician suggested that because I had a calcium battery and an AGM battery that I needed to charge them separately and change the settings on the Ctek to suit the type of battery.
I have since disconnected the SC80 connector plug and charged the cranking battery separately every night this week and hydrometer checks on the low cell has not improved, being on the edge of the red almost to the yellow. (bought hydrometer from Battery World). I will take it back to the battery shop on the weekend as, to their credit, they did not try to persuade me to buy a new battery as he said I needed to try charging separately first.
I would appreciate comments on this requirement to charge the batteries separately. I know these systems are not always as simple as they first seem.
The no start situation happened in my carport so there was no need for a jump start. As my SC80 does not have the jump start abilities of Tim’s later versions I would have had to get my jumper leads out to jump from the second battery to the cranking battery if I was away from home. I have been thinking about this since and am considering getting a second wire from the second battery with the same plug as what plugs in to the SC80 controller and swapping them over for jump start capabilities. i.e. the existing cable goes from positive on cranking battery and is connected to the SC80 relay via an easily connectable/disconnectable plug. If I have a second short cable to the positive on the second battery and swap the connector over at times when I need to jump start the cranking battery it should connect both batteries at all voltages, bypassing the SC80 relay. Can anyone see downside to this?
My last question is why the car did not start after the initial 18hr charge as the battery had enough charge to do so. My understanding is that to accurately measure battery volts you need to have a small flow of power. Does the Land Rover battery management system need this flow before it registers that the battery is now charged sufficiently to allow computer screens/systems to stay on and the car to start? It went from shutting itself down to normal after several attempts to start the car.
Sorry if this is a bit long winded. I did extensive searching on this and there is a heap of good stuff on this forum but it did not answer my questions above.
Sean

[drivesafe]

Hi Sean and first off, leave the SC80 disconnected from your cranking battery.

The cranking battery will most likely go flat over night.

It sounds like you have a cell dying in your cranking battery and the SC80 is allowing the Optima to mask the faulty cranking battery.

If your cranking battery goes flat overnight then you know what needs to be done.

As for making up a lead to be able to bypass the SC80 and jump start. This will work but with a new battery you will most likely not need to jump start again. ( not for quite some years )

If you have jumper leads with you, all you need to do is connect the positive terminals of both batteries with a single lead and jump start form that.

The negative of both batteries are already connected via the Disco’s body.

BTW, normally, you can charge both batteries at the same time when using a battery charger.

[Geedublya]

Just be careful and make sure the negative lead from your second battery is large enough to handle starting current. The one I got with the kit is fairly small (6 B&S?)so when my main battery was dying I always connected both positive and negative jumper leads between the two batteries before jump starting.
I intend to install a larger negative cable soon to negate the need for this in the future.

[drivesafe]

Hi Geedublya, 6B&S cable is rated at 100 amps in a dual battery setup ( for a constant maximum current load ) but will safely and easily handle the current load of a jump start.

Have a look at most jumper leads you buy. They are normally around 6B&S, and some are even smaller 8B&S, still work.

I carry a set of jumper leads I acquired in the mid 70s and these were used to jump start APCs and they are 6B&S.

[Geedublya]

My Jumper leads are 3 B&S so when I looked at the skimpy 6 B&S I decided to err on the side of caution.

[JamesH]

Hi Tim, just a quick thread hijack, the jump starting procedure you described above, is that the procedure for jumping with a late model SC80? Do I need to disconnect the SC80 before jumping? cheers

[drivesafe]

Hi James and there is no need to disconnect the SC80, just connect the jumper lead to each battery’s positive terminal and jump start.

[sean c]

Thanks for the advice Tim. I have left the second battery disconnected all week and charged the cranking battery every night. That one cell has not improved but the car starts OK every time. I think it is time to replace the battery.
It still concerns me a bit that after that initial overnight charge that the car would not start and had low battery shutdown on screen until a few attempts and then came good and started with no further warnings. I suspect it is the battery maangement system not reading the state of charge initially and am not sure if I have a problem with this system or if this is normal, to get a flow of electricity to read correctly.

[lpj]

.... It still concerns me a bit that after that initial overnight charge that the car would not start and had low battery shutdown on screen until a few attempts and then came good and started with no further warnings. I suspect it is the battery maangement system not reading the state of charge initially and am not sure if I have a problem with this system or if this is normal, to get a flow of electricity to read correctly.

I'm wondering if a hard reset at this point could have cleared the existing "I don't have enough power" situation with the battery management system.
I'm sure some of the tech guru's on this site might know the answer.

[scarry]

FWIW,my D4 is also not used a lot as we have company cars.It will often sit for a while and then do a long run,or sometimes a few short runs.
I noticed the SC80 flashing often,just doing its job,and the cranking battery on around 11.7 to 12.0V.

I also have a recently purchased a Ctek smart charger,and i have a plug permanently wired to the cranking battery and charge it every second weekend or so.
The cranking battery has AGM written on it,as does the optima auxiliary,so i set the charger to AGM and leave it.
I find that after the charger has fully charged both batteries(as they are connected together with the SC80),the batteries seem to be better charged than the state of charge the car gives the battery even after a good hour run on the highway.

[jonesy63]

I'm wondering if a hard reset at this point could have cleared the existing "I don't have enough power" situation with the battery management system.
I'm sure some of the tech guru's on this site might know the answer.

The main battery was charged overnight - and still low. As Tim said above, there is a cell on the way out and in my opinion, the BMS is working fine. What would a hard reset achieve? When the terminals are connected back to the suspect battery, it is not going to change the battery itself.

When my main battery died a few months ago - a cell died and while it could turn over the motor once, there wasn't enough power to start. So Sean - consider yourself on borrowed time! I reckon you should change the battery - before it leaves you stranded somewhere.

[lpj]

What would a hard reset achieve? When the terminals are connected back to the suspect battery, it is not going to change the battery.

I don't know, hence the question.

[trevorj]

Scarry: in my case (2011 D4, dual traxide), it takes pretty much a day of running to get a full charge into the crank (which I think shows on my voltmeter as about 12.7 -13V while running). When its charging up, depending on state of initial charge, my voltmeter (OK $10 cigplug, but ...) shows up to 14.7V while running.
Like you, I use the ctek to trickle mine up about monthly, but I use the trailer plug. All seems neat and sweet, so far - 1 year. The OEM battery warning goes off at about 11.5V (standing), which is when I plug in the ctek.

[jonesy63]

I don't know, hence the question.

Let me make it simpler:

1) Dead battery
2) Hard reset
3) Battery is still dead!

Hard reset - does nothing in this situation. The BMS is saying low voltage - working correctly.

[drivesafe]

Hi Paul and Trevor, 11.5v - 11.7v is too low for a cranking battery.

You should not allow it to get below 11.9v if you want a long life span.

Also, a long drive every so often is not going to return your battery to a fully charged state.

It will allow the battery capacity that is still usable to be fully charged but a battery that is used for short trips or sits around unused for long periods, requires numerous long drive so that each time you drive, once the battery is fully charged, the alternator can then condition the battery.

It’s the conditioning that will S-L-O-W-L-Y bring your battery back to maximum capacity.

The alternatives, as you both have posted, use a battery charger and leave it on the battery for around 8 to 10 hours after the battery charger goes into float mode.

Just like when charging via an alternator, a battery charger needs time to recondition the battery and you need to repeat this charging cycle to get the battery back to full “health”.

This chart will help with determining battery charge capacity, but note, SoC only indicates the State of Charge of the USABLE capacity, and not the battery's original total capacity.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/640.jpg

[lpj]

Let me make it simpler: 1) Dead battery 2) Hard reset 3) Battery is still dead! Hard reset - does nothing in this situation. The BMS is saying low voltage - working correctly.

Gee thanks. Perhaps I didn't express my genuine question properly. In any case, you have missed the point of what I was asking. I can't see how your response has helped at all. I thinks it's clear from the posts that the battery is dead.

This forum is for "support and community"

Thanks and I'll now bow out of this little game of yours.

[Silenceisgolden]

Gee thanks. Perhaps I didn't express my genuine question properly. In any case, you have missed the point of what I was asking.

lpj, I think I understand your question. When a fault happens that is monitored by the car electronics, the computer stores a fault code. Some of these codes clear automatically when the fault situation goes away, others are stored for future analysis - and clearing - by the dealer.

The low voltage fault code could well be stored until cleared by a dealer who can investigate the reason for the fault code and if necessary take action. It may be possible to clear that fault code by a hard reset.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I think I do at least understand the question.

[scarry]

Thanks Tim,i can tell how low the cranking battery is by how long it takes the charger to go on float.

What i should do in future is get out the fluke and use your chart which is probably more accurate.

Since i have been charging the battery with the new charger,i have not seen the light on the SC80 flashing,where before it was often on.

Another reason to have an SC80 as it is a good warning everything is not OK.

[jonesy63]

Gee thanks. Perhaps I didn't express my genuine question properly. In any case, you have missed the point of what I was asking. I can't see how your response has helped at all. I thinks it's clear from the posts that the battery is dead.

This forum is for "support and community"

Thanks and I'll now bow out of this little game of yours.

Apologies - yes, I missed your intended question. No games intended, I totally misunderstood what you were confused about. (BMS message versus clearing error stored error codes).

[drivesafe]

I have had a couple of new D4 customers who have had problems when the cranking battery was discharged a bit low, while they were working on the vehicle.

Even after charging with a battery charger and having a known fully charged battery, they were continually getting “Low Battery, Start Motor” messages.

These were NEW D4s and the only thing that corrected the problem was a Hard Reset.

Maybe it will help in this instance? But is dose sound like a stuffed battery.

[lpj]

Apologies - yes, I missed your intended question. No games intended, I totally misunderstood what you were confused about. (BMS message versus clearing error stored error codes).

Might be male menopause on my part. Bit sensitive. No stress.