has Australia dropped the ball on solar? [Archive]

wrinklearthur

15th June 2014, 09:13 AM

Australia and Tasmania, World leaders in Renewable Energy.

Well known is the State of Tasmania's, Hydro Electric power generation and the Wind Generator farms.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/733.jpg

The state has also been a part of the scheme where Home Owners have been encouraged to fit Solar Power Panels.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/734.jpg

Ref; Solar Power - Hobart, Launceston and Tasmania - Energy Matters Australia (http://www.energymatters.com.au/australia/solar-tasmania.php)

Through the Renewable Energy Target scheme (RET), the Federal Government subsidises the cost of Solar Power Systems according to the energy generated..

Ref; King Island Renewable Energy Expansion (KIREX) | King Island Renewable Energy Integration Project (http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au/history/kirex)

A World leading in technology not well known in the community, it is a storage medium for electricity, installed by Hydro Tasmania.
The Vanadium Redox Battery ( VRB ) was installed in 2003 as part of KIREX, as the name suggests it is a large scale battery and has been in use on King Island since installation in conjunction with a Wind Farm.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/735.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/736.jpg

Ref; ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb (http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/) .

The University of New South Wales in Sydney Australia has been at the forefront of vanadium redox flow battery technology since the invention of the first all-vanadium redox flow cell by Prof Skyllas-Kazacos and co-workers back in 1985. As the adoption of cyclic renewable energy generation sources such as wind and solar continues to increase, the demand for large scale energy storage technologies is rising. The UNSW Vanadium Redox Flow Battery technology is a proven, economically attractive and low-maintenance solution, with significant benefits over the obsolete lead-acid battery technology.
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Redback

15th June 2014, 09:19 AM

Yep, from leading the world, to it's all to hard, lets mine more coal it's cheaper short term.

Always for now and never for the future, Australias motto for everything.

The Government(all sides) needs to pull their heads out of their arses:twisted:

Baz.

wrinklearthur

15th June 2014, 09:33 AM

Australia's problem is that it's Politicians follow the noise and then ill conceived promises then flush forward in line with the weight of the uninformed nonsense.

Technology for Environmentally friendly Power Generation, isn't thought much about by the Obese, Holden / Ford loving, Pie eating, Football / Cricket watchers who make their demands for bigger and better Sports Stadiums.

The other side of the coin is that the Companies that are at the forefront of Technology here in Australia, are woefully quiet about their achievements and are easily swayed away from our shores by the offers of more money, going to Countries that have many times the populations that Australia has, to draw investment money from.
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bob10

15th June 2014, 11:05 AM

Australia and Tasmania, World leaders in Renewable Energy.

Ref; King Island Renewable Energy Expansion (KIREX) | King Island Renewable Energy Integration Project (http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au/history/kirex)

A World leading in technology not well known in the community, it is a storage medium for electricity, installed by Hydro Tasmania.
The Vanadium Redox Battery ( VRB ) was installed in 2003 as part of KIREX, as the name suggests it is a large scale battery and has been in use on King Island since installation in conjunction with a Wind Farm.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/735.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/736.jpg

Ref; ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb (http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/) .

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Yes , it appears that Tas. was a World leader in the vanadium battery, but what happened? Canada has a company, supplying vanadium batteries to New York. [ see seperate thread] Next question, does Australia have a home grown source of vanadium? Bob

Vanadium Batteries

The batteries are capable of storing 130 kilowatt-hours each. They are produced by DMG Mori Seiki AG (GIL) (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GIL:GR)’s Gildemeister unit, which has installed 50 of the systems under the brand name CellCube, Radvak said.
The CellCube batteries use vanadium dissolved in sulfuric acid. Unlike standard lead-acid batteries or the lithium-ion units used by Tesla, they can be recharged and discharged indefinitely and may last as long as 20 years, Radvak said.

“The system excels at multiple hours of energy for long-duration requirements,” he said. “It’s also very safe. It can’t light on fire. The difficulty has been commercializing it.”
American Vanadium intends to mine ore in Nevada (http://topics.bloomberg.com/nevada/) and expects to receive an environmental permit from the U.S. Bureau of Land Management this year, Radvak said. It has a supply deal with Gildemeister and an agreement to market the batteries in North America (http://topics.bloomberg.com/north-america/).

Don 130

15th June 2014, 11:47 AM

Ivanpah in the mojave desert is now operating. We could have lots of this type of thing if we had some forward thinking.
Take the tour
BrightSource Ivanpah | Proven Leadership in Solar Energy (http://ivanpahsolar.com)
Don.

rovercare

15th June 2014, 12:13 PM

Australia and Tasmania, World leaders in Renewable Energy.

Well known is the State of Tasmania's, Hydro Electric power generation and the Wind Generator farms.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/733.jpg

The state has also been a part of the scheme where Home Owners have been encouraged to fit Solar Power Panels.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/734.jpg

Ref; Solar Power - Hobart, Launceston and Tasmania - Energy Matters Australia (http://www.energymatters.com.au/australia/solar-tasmania.php)

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Ref; King Island Renewable Energy Expansion (KIREX) | King Island Renewable Energy Integration Project (http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au/history/kirex)

A World leading in technology not well known in the community, it is a storage medium for electricity, installed by Hydro Tasmania.
The Vanadium Redox Battery ( VRB ) was installed in 2003 as part of KIREX, as the name suggests it is a large scale battery and has been in use on King Island since installation in conjunction with a Wind Farm.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/735.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/736.jpg

Ref; ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb (http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/) .

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Except in reality, where I was speaking to some operators at the plant on King island, when I was there, they said the trackers for the panels are constantly failing and the winds from the roaring 40's are not consitant enough for good production from the wind turbines:D

They did day however thos CAT gensets are ever reliable

wrinklearthur

15th June 2014, 12:34 PM

Can we afford to have to have a surplus of energy generation capability?

No matter which system is taken as an example, there is cost in the development, manufacturing, implementation, on going running costs and depreciation.

Until we can see positive financial gains in another power source over a older type, it would be foolhardy for this nation of ours to simply invest for the sake of an ideal, when financial constraints are needed.

Hydro Electricity was and still is, the best way to generate affordable power, but the scope for new sites to be developed is being curtailed by, first; a lack of suitable sites and, The wish by the environmentalists to prevent any more development. Conserving a head of water to spin a turbine isn't as important as their wish to see an area left unchanged and now to generate the needed power it has to be done by burning a nonrenewable resource instead.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", Is the sight of Suburban homes with Solar Panels screwed on willynilly over their rooves, better than the sight a fisherman has of his surroundings when casting his line into a man made lake?
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Chucaro

15th June 2014, 01:30 PM

This site it is very good source of information about wind turbines in different countries.

Wind power production per country (http://www.thewindpower.net/statistics_countries_en.php)

3toes

16th June 2014, 07:30 AM

In the mid eighties I was in Hawaii. They had a large valley full of wind turbines to generate electricity. Were taking advantage of the local climate which sees a constant wind speed almost all year long.

In the news this week there was a story about Hawaii and solar which they had gone into in a big way with panels on peoples roofs. Seems they were having problems within the delivery system. Solar panels delivered most energy morning into afternoon. The power fell away just as demand ramped up for peak useage which was late after noon into the evening. Further problem was that the power from the panels going into the grid as low and so it stayed local and would not flow up stream against the high power from the central generators.

BMKal

16th June 2014, 08:08 AM

Yes , it appears that Tas. was a World leader in the vanadium battery, but what happened? Canada has a company, supplying vanadium batteries to New York. [ see seperate thread] Next question, does Australia have a home grown source of vanadium? Bob

Bob - Australia has one of the world's largest deposits of Vanadium, at Windimurra in WA (just near Mount Magnet).

Production there has been on & off for years. Is currently owned by Atlantic Resources and is in production. Was initially developed by a company called Precious Metals Australia (PMA) and was bought out and then shut down & stripped by XStrata / Glencore to push up the price of Vanadium in other operations that they owned elsewhere in the world (it's the main reason why XTrata's name is dirt over this part of the country - as far as I and many others are concerned, they shouldn't be allowed ownership of anything in Australia).

Has taken many years for a number of other smaller companies to re-build from the mess left behind by XStrata, and the mine, while one of the largest known deposits in the world, is still small by world standards.

There's quite a few other known deposits of Vanadium in Australia (mostly in WA plus the Hawkwood deposit in Queensland), but Windimurra is so far the only one to go into production.

Most of the world's current production of Vanadium is from China, South Africa and Russia.

The world Vanadium market is supplied largely from secondary sources, particularly the reprocessing of slags from iron smelting. So the development of new Vanadium mines is pretty slow - they have to be a very good, low cost deposit to enable them to compete for sales.

But it is available here if we should choose to use it.

ramblingboy42

16th June 2014, 08:20 AM

I think you are onto something here 3toes.

Possibly the best outcome is utilising all forms of power generation concentrating on the 'free' alternative sources when abundant and using fossil fueled generation as the reliable backup or peak booster that it has always proved to be.

Brisbane uses an opposite type scenario for it's peaks , using a hydro electric turbine at Wivenhoe Dam as a KVA(I think that may be the term to be used) by pumping up the holding dam off peak and using the turbine to meet peaks instantly.

I think the govt may not like the home roof based systems because very little money goes back into the govt coffers.....which , unfortunately is their true concern rather than that of clean renewable energy sourcing. There motto is WIIFM rather than how can we genuinely do something for everyone.

Sorry it's very hard not to be political when you look at this.

Keithy P38

16th June 2014, 01:21 PM

ramblingboy42

16th June 2014, 04:11 PM

these vanadium batteries are very expensive.

any form of alternate energy is very expensive.

they all have massive financial or energy footprints.

we really have abundant fossil fuel.....surely by now our engineers and scientists can find a way to create 'clean' energy from it.

AndyG

16th June 2014, 04:18 PM

For base load you need big stable power sources, only coal and nuclear do that. But they take a while to warm up, hence 40 years ago, at least they used excess power to push water back up the hill in the kiwa (sic?) valley for the a.m peak.

I am not a fan of market manipulation by artificial means, and I say that that as a beneficiary of the rooftop solar schemes. Why should I get a credit which is partially paid for by low income renters.

I am skeptical about the proponents of global warming, when none will address the biggest issue, population growth. In fact in Oz we encourage it!

The best contribution Oz could make to global warming is pure research, I.e. Many billions $ and license the results. Like how Csiro & the invention of wifi.

Rant over

ramblingboy42

16th June 2014, 07:21 PM

well Andy, it may change for the better.

If the mad monk wants to be in Obamas good books he will have to change his attitude on the global warming debate.

I hope for the good of Australia that Obama brings some pressure to bear to align Australia with USA's total environmental policies.

Rosco8

16th June 2014, 10:19 PM

My heart says solar, wind and thermal .. my brain says today's technology cannot guarantee large cities having 24x7 power, so regardless you have to invest and maintain conventional power.

As others have said we are sitting on massive reserves of cheap (comparative) fossil fuel and the worlds growing population (and economies) demands it. We are not strong enough to deny it (defend it), so we have to play the game and might as well use it to provide cheaper power to our own population to remain somewhat competitive (if we could work out what we could competitively manufacture!!) .. however I agree, we should be investing heavily in making it cleaner to generate power, and exporting this technology to others to try and limit the pollution.

We should also be preparing eventually for the day that it becomes cheaper to use alternative energy. Why we lost our leadership in solar is beyond me .. I was proud that we had the skills, the science and capability to be the world leader. Why did we as a nation collectively allow this to fade away ?? Very depressing.

Are we to be just a source of raw materials and massive import warehouses of other nations goods to sell ?? Investing and developing skills and capabilities in energy science and technology is critical, and holding on to these resources once developed mandatory. We shouldn't be just a scientist breeding ground for other nations.

Greatsouthernland

16th June 2014, 11:11 PM

Resources

Australia's Economic Demonstrated Resources (EDR) of vanadium decreased by 14% in 2011 to 1519 kilotonnes (kt) from 1762 kt in 2010 as a result of a reassessment of the Gabanintha deposit in Western Australia (WA) by Yellow Rock Resources Ltd.

Historically, Australia's EDR of vanadium have fluctuated because of the economic impacts of volatile prices and the nature of the vanadium market, which is supplied largely from secondary sources, particularly the reprocessing of slags from iron smelting. These secondary sources are able to rapidly increase or decrease output in response to price trends.

Accessible EDR

All of Australia's EDR of vanadium are accessible.

JORC Reserves

In 2011, Joint Ore Reserve Committee (JORC) Code Reserves in the Proved and Probable Reserve categories comprised 1230 kt of vanadium compared with 1172 kt in 2010. This accounts for approximately 81% of accessible EDR. The remaining 19% of EDR comprises Measured and Indicated Resources.

World Ranking

The USGS estimates that world economic resources of vanadium are about 15 million tonnes (Mt) but total world resources exceed 63 Mt. China and Russia each hold about 8% of the world's vanadium resources, followed by South Africa with 6%. Australia's EDR of 1.519 Mt represents approximately 2.5% of the world's vanadium resources. However, because vanadium can be recovered as a by-product or a co-product of steel slags, the estimated world resources are not fully indicative of available supply. At current usage, there are sufficient resources to meet the world's vanadium needs into the next century.

The USGS estimates that world production of vanadium from all sources in 2011 totalled 62.4 Mt compared to 62.2 Mt in 2010, with China producing 23 Mt, South Africa 22 Mt and Russia 15 Mt.

Exploration

Data on exploration expenditure for vanadium are not available in published statistics. However, during 2011, exploration or resource drilling was undertaken at Speewah in WA with approximately 13 000 m of reverse circulation (RC) drilling and 5000 m of diamond drilling, while at Hawkwood in Queensland (Qld) there was 637 m of diamond drilling following the 2010 RC-drilling campaign. More recently, a 7000 m diamond and RC drilling program commenced in November 2012 at Mount Peake in the Northern Territory (NT). Geochemical and geophysical surveys were undertaken in WA at Gabanintha in 2011 and 2012 and at Canegrass in late 2011. Exploration of the southern tenements at Windimurra in WA confirmed the potential for replenishing the reserves at this mine.

Production

There was no production of vanadium in Australia during 2011. However, Atlantic Ltd's Windimurra mine produced vanadium and high-titanium hematite fines (iron ore) in 2012. The company's first shipment of seven tonnes of FeV occurred at the end of May and by the end of September it had transported another 38 tonnes to its Perth warehouse.

Most of the world's reported mine production of vanadium during 2011 was in China (38%), South Africa (33%) and Russia (25%).

Source - http://www.ga.gov.au/products-services/publications/aimr/vanadium.html

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bee utey

16th June 2014, 11:26 PM

Windimurra mine had a big fire earlier this year and isn't in production at the moment.

Atlantic receives first Windimurra insurance payment | Mining Australia (http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/atlantic-receives-first-windimurra-insurance-payme)

Greatsouthernland

16th June 2014, 11:31 PM

Xstrata/Glencore might have screwed over your bit of the country, but they've kept a roof over millions of heads for over 10yrs in QLD.

I agree - they are politicians crossed with accountants, and they will step on toes if they have to in order to get what they want.

Yes....and BHP Billiton & RIO Tinto are much better corporate citizens to be mining our wealth (with little local human toil/jobs thanks to increasing autonomous fleets).

Lots of these big boys have (and will continue) destroyed communities by opening/closing operations at the stroke of an accountants quill.

...Ravensthorpe :angel: CSR, ...Wittenoom... And then there's the union invoked response from BMA, etc:angel: ODO expansion/no expansion...

But X-Strata do have a bad smell about them, more so than the others....maybe Gina will be different? :oops2: :o
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Chucaro

19th June 2014, 09:30 AM

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10438523_470310159772249_6879975168323845966_n.png

DiscoMick

19th June 2014, 12:01 PM

rovercare

19th June 2014, 01:36 PM

We, as one of the world's sunniest countries, are a long way behind Germany, not a country known for sunshine.

Germany Reached Nearly 75% Renewable Power Use On Sunday | CleanTechnica (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/15/germany-reaches-nearly-75-renewable-power-use-sunday/)

You are certainly full of ideals:D

Sunniest Places and Countries in the World - Current Results (http://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/sunniest-places-countries-world.php)

Pretty sure distribution of electricity from tenant creek may be an issue, pesky Voltage drop can be a bugger;)

DiscoMick

19th June 2014, 03:49 PM

Sun also shines on the coast, you know.

rovercare

19th June 2014, 04:42 PM

Sun also shines on the coast, you know.

Its not sustainable for base load generation, people need to get over this, you need spinning masses of copper for grid stability, its also only useful at when the sun shine, you have other issues with cloud edge effect, overcast days, blah blah...

Like I said, ideals

Oh and Germany's interconnector to France which is predominately Nuclear? Shhhh

Chucaro

19th June 2014, 05:50 PM

rovercare

19th June 2014, 05:59 PM

Solar farms are and excellent option and work well in many countries.
The Arnedo Solar plant in Spain produces an impressive 34 GWh every year, which will power 12,000 households and prevent 375,000 tonnes of CO2. The facility sits on seventy hectares and houses 172,000 panels.
In Germany, the Waldpolenz Solar Park is the world’s largest thin-film photovoltaic (PV) power system.
Moura in Portugal, produces 46 MWp, counting a total of over 376,000 solar panels and the future expansion will produce 88 GWh of electrical energy per year.
Puerto Llano in Spain is another which generate energy for 39,000 households.
We can go on and on, the problem is that we have coal and prefer the "easy" way and not care for the environment.
People find excuses that have been proved wrong.

Which as a ratio to what is available on their network to base load generators is small, its simple math, plus they don't need to distribute anywhere near the distance we do in Australia

Its ain't excuses, it is reality, sorry, ideals(dreams) don't cut it

Yea, it is great for supplementary energy use, but it still cannot do the job of base load generation

It can supplement, that is all

isuzurover

19th June 2014, 06:10 PM

Which as a ratio to what is available on their network to base load generators is small, its simple math, plus they don't need to distribute anywhere near the distance we do in Australia

Its ain't excuses, it is reality, sorry, ideals(dreams) don't cut it

Yea, it is great for supplementary energy use, but it still cannot do the job of base load generation

It can supplement, that is all

H – Flexible power production (no more baseload) – German Energy Transition (http://energytransition.de/2012/10/flexible-power-production-no-more-baseload/)

A properly distributed and planned energy network can minimise the need for "traditional" baseload power.

In AU both Governments, power authorities and the coal industry like to perpetuate the baseload argument, because to do otherwise would mean we need to upgrade transmission lines, improve planning and set up properly connected networks between regions.

e.g. there are very few days where it is not sunny or windy on one of the coasts. A DC transmission link from the east coast network to Darwin and Alice springs and another to the Perth SWIS would be a start.
http://www.originenergy.com.au/resources/national-electricity-market.jpg
http://www.originenergy.com.au/resources/national-electricity-market.jpg

Chucaro

19th June 2014, 06:20 PM

Which as a ratio to what is available on their network to base load generators is small, its simple math, plus they don't need to distribute anywhere near the distance we do in Australia

Its ain't excuses, it is reality, sorry, ideals(dreams) don't cut it

Yea, it is great for supplementary energy use, but it still cannot do the job of base load generation

It can supplement, that is all

Not dream a reality, in 2012 German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity – equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity – through the midday hours of Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank has said ... Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50% of the nation's midday electricity needs.
The Abu Dhabi plant is a 100-megawatt solar-thermal project at idiots to invest there even if they have oil.
The Sahara desert it is not a small patch of land and not to mention when the £35.7billion supergrid would allow European countries to share electricity from te eco-friendly plant.
Apple in USA also invested in 2 large plants and USA is not a small country
As I have said, as long as there are easy options without vision there will be excuses to knock back solar or wind generated energy. ;)

rovercare

19th June 2014, 07:26 PM

H – Flexible power production (no more baseload) – German Energy Transition (http://energytransition.de/2012/10/flexible-power-production-no-more-baseload/)

A properly distributed and planned energy network can minimise the need for "traditional" baseload power.

In AU both Governments, power authorities and the coal industry like to perpetuate the baseload argument, because to do otherwise would mean we need to upgrade transmission lines, improve planning and set up properly connected networks between regions.

e.g. there are very few days where it is not sunny or windy on one of the coasts. A DC transmission link from the east coast network to Darwin and Alice springs and another to the Perth SWIS would be a start.

http://www.originenergy.com.au/resources/national-electricity-market.jpg

So that article mentions that they will use natural gas peaker plants, to keep up with low demands, much the same as we do now? nothing written however about excess load, voltage and frequency stability and all the actual aspects that are currently effecting the areas that are at saturation point of PV

DC interconnectors have losses, Loy yang to Launceston is a far cry from the latrobe valley to perth. plus they also have shut downs, what happend when you become reliant upon the opposing coastline and the interconnector trips? how much redundancy are you going to build into the grid?

And again, Voltage control and frequency control on large scale is a huge issue, especially with the size of what would be out nation wide grid. when they start smelters up, the grid and generators know about it

The best part, who is going to pay the bill?:D

rovercare

19th June 2014, 07:33 PM

Not dream a reality, in 2012 German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity – equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity – through the midday hours of Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank has said ... Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50% of the nation's midday electricity needs.
The Abu Dhabi plant is a 100-megawatt solar-thermal project at idiots to invest there even if they have oil.
The Sahara desert it is not a small patch of land and not to mention when the £35.7billion supergrid would allow European countries to share electricity from te eco-friendly plant.
Apple in USA also invested in 2 large plants and USA is not a small country
As I have said, as long as there are easy options without vision there will be excuses to knock back solar or wind generated energy. ;)

You are mistaking my points, the issue is not the ability to produce energy, I mean, I have installed a little more than a fair share of rooftop PV over the last few years

Its the ability to produce it continuously, and with good control, energy is more than just Watts, frequency and voltage need to be regulated

Solar thermal is a closer step, as it can run a generator, which is good for the issues I have spoken about, but it don't work real well at night time

And again, you keep cherry picking these things that make the ideals seem great, but a midday peak production, that is theoretical, not measured, is far from providing 24hr stable electricity

And again again, great supplement no doubt, excellent to see it move along, but a long way off from being fully sustainable, which I doubt will be in my lifetime

Oh, Air conditioning peak load is primarily the cause of most issues and huge uptakes in power consumption, so do your bit on turn off the A/C:)

isuzurover

19th June 2014, 08:01 PM

...
And again, Voltage control and frequency control on large scale is a huge issue, especially with the size of what would be out nation wide grid. when they start smelters up, the grid and generators know about it

The best part, who is going to pay the bill?:D

I am typing this from Germany, powered most likely by solar power as it is midday here and the sun is shining. Voltage and frequency are extremely stable 24/7 throughout all parts of Germany I have been to.

We will eventually be forced to do this anyway eventually, and doing it earlier will create jobs at a time when many in manufacturing and construction are being laid off.

There are plenty of options as for who pays - BOO or BOOT schemes for example. Obviously subsidies would be needed, however these would be paid back in jobs and future economic development.

rovercare

19th June 2014, 09:15 PM

I am typing this from Germany, powered most likely by solar power as it is midday here and the sun is shining. Voltage and frequency are extremely stable 24/7 throughout all parts of Germany I have been to.

We will eventually be forced to do this anyway eventually, and doing it earlier will create jobs at a time when many in manufacturing and construction are being laid off.

There are plenty of options as for who pays - BOO or BOOT schemes for example. Obviously subsidies would be needed, however these would be paid back in jobs and future economic development.

You have your Voltmeter and Oscilloscope handy?:D

Consumer pays, that's an inevitable part of the equation and is always the case, why do people put PV on their roof now?...............I gaurantee you out of the hundreds and hundreds of systems I have install, not a single one has done it in the sole interest of the environment, not one.....all had it as a secondary incentive, but really it was just to save money

What happens at midnight though....nothing yet....till all the big nasty generators are switched off, Germany also has a far larger grid/load bank per Sq of land, this has alot to do with grid stability

Crating jobs, still comes at a loss, unless its a sustainable industry, government granted industries are not sustainable on their own merit....hence the government funding

DiscoMick

20th June 2014, 12:20 PM

The sun also shines on the coast, you know.

DiscoMick

20th June 2014, 12:41 PM

Pretty sure the sun also shines on the coast. Might be why the Sunshine Coast Council is putting in a solar power farm.

rovercare

20th June 2014, 01:15 PM

Pretty sure the sun also shines on the coast. Might be why the Sunshine Coast Council is putting in a solar power farm.

Sigh...

Its not that it isn't a great supplement, its not any good as base load generation;)

The world does not run on ideals

Chucaro

20th June 2014, 06:11 PM

Y................................................. .............
Oh, Air conditioning peak load is primarily the cause of most issues and huge uptakes in power consumption, so do your bit on turn off the A/C:)

Not AC in my homes and I do not have solar panels because our electricity bill is of $250 per month for 9 month of the year and $300 for the 3 winter months. The cost of a solar system and the energy used to manufacturing it does not justify to have t in our case.
When we built our homes me designed them for passive heating during winter and cooling in summer including our 10 years in Qld.
Now in Kingston, Tasmania we bought a house with double insulation in the roof, insulation on the walls and an orientation were we have the sun heating the place from 9 to 4 in winter. :)
Planning is the way to go and be smart in how you use energy.

isuzurover

20th June 2014, 06:32 PM

...

The world does not run on ideals

But it does run on ideas ;)

Utsira in Norway had a demo plant without traditional baseload system - which provided 40-50% autonomy from the grid (as in 24 hr - not a few hours a day).

The system was only planned as a 4-year trial but the kept it going for 8 last I heard.

Ulleberg, Ø. , Nakken, T. , Eté, A.
International journal of hydrogen energy, Vol. 35, no. 5 (March 2010), 1841-1852

Publ. year
2010
Publ. type
article
Abstract
An autonomous wind/hydrogen energy demonstration system located at the island of Utsira in Norway was officially launched by Norsk Hydro (now StatoilHydro) and Enercon in July 2004. The main components in the system installed are a wind turbine (600 kW), water electrolyzer (10 Nm3/h), hydrogen gas storage (2400 Nm3, 200 bar), hydrogen engine (55 kW), and a PEM fuel cell (10 kW). The system gives 2–3 days of full energy autonomy for 10 households on the island, and is the first of its kind in the world. A significant amount of operational experience and data has been collected over the past 4 years. The main objective with this study was to evaluate the operation of the Utsira plant using a set of updated hydrogen energy system modeling tools (HYDROGEMS). Operational data (10-min data) was used to calibrate the model parameters and fine-tune the set-up of a system simulation. The hourly operation of the plant was simulated for a representative month (March 2007), using only measured wind speed (m/s) and average power demand (kW) as the input variables, and the results compared well to measured data. The operation for a specific year (2005) was also simulated, and the performance of several alternative system designs was evaluated. A thorough discussion on issues related to the design and operation of wind/hydrogen energy systems is also provided, including specific recommendations for improvements to the Utsira plant. This paper shows how important it is to improve the hydrogen system efficiency in order to achieve a fully (100%) autonomous wind/hydrogen power system.

Mick_Marsh

20th June 2014, 07:39 PM

DC link from Perth or the east coast to Darwin and Alice Springs got a damned good laugh here. Which think tank dreamed that one up?

And what a good idea using wind and solar to split water into hydrogen and oxygen so it could run a fuel cell. Roofs crammed with solar panels, wind turbines in the front yard, hydrogen, oxygen and water tanks filling the back yard. Don't forget your hazardous area zones. Where do we put the fuel cell?
Forget about that, where do we get the water? Oh, yes, the desal plant.

Have we dropped the ball? We never picked it up. About six years ago, the company I was working for was going to design a molten salt power plant in Australia. This needed government funding to get underway. The Australian Government declined but the American Government picked up the tab so it went to America.
Sad. It would have been a good project to work on.

You can't escape it. You need something to supply the base load and something that reacts quickly to supply the peaks. There are alternatives to the mud burners but solar or wind are not capable. Wind is really only good for line regulation.

rovercare

20th June 2014, 07:54 PM

But it does run on ideas ;)

Utsira in Norway had a demo plant without traditional baseload system - which provided 40-50% autonomy from the grid (as in 24 hr - not a few hours a day).

The system was only planned as a 4-year trial but the kept it going for 8 last I heard.

Wow, 10 houses for a few days.

Pretty sure people have been on stand alone for many years succesfully, but I wonder if I went and turned on 5 Clothes dryers, 7 electric hot water systems, 4 ovens some kettle and toasters and of course soem A/C how well there system would function

Its hardly viable evidence

rovercare

20th June 2014, 08:02 PM

Not AC in my homes and I do not have solar panels because our electricity bill is of $250 per month for 9 month of the year and $300 for the 3 winter months. The cost of a solar system and the energy used to manufacturing it does not justify to have t in our case.
When we built our homes me designed them for passive heating during winter and cooling in summer including our 10 years in Qld.
Now in Kingston, Tasmania we bought a house with double insulation in the roof, insulation on the walls and an orientation were we have the sun heating the place from 9 to 4 in winter. :)
Planning is the way to go and be smart in how you use energy.

I agree, I don't have A/C either

I would love to build a solar passive home, but I like where I live to much to move

Still does not make solar and wind sustainable for base load generation

DiscoMick

24th June 2014, 06:51 AM

Here's a cool solar application:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/adventurer-piccard-to-fly-around-the-world-in-a-solar-plane/5544002

And baseload renewable energy is possible if we are prepared to invest in it, which certainly won't happen under the current backward-looking Abbott Government, which has definitely dropped the ball.

http://bze.org.au/media/newswire/living-green-power-renewables-131007

Studies for the government's own review of the RET have also found that, after an initial cost rise because of the upfront investment, it could actually result in lower power prices after 2020.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/ret-would-reduce-household-bills/5544658

So, it seems a clear choice between staying with the current coal-based system and watching prices skyrocket or investing for the future and being better off in the medium to long term. Pretty easy choice really IMHO.

Sent from my D1 using overweight hamsters.

rovercare

24th June 2014, 10:38 AM

Here's a cool solar application:
Swiss adventurer Bertrand Piccard to attempt to fly around the world in solar plane - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/adventurer-piccard-to-fly-around-the-world-in-a-solar-plane/5544002)

And baseload renewable energy is possible if we are prepared to invest in it, which certainly won't happen under the current backward-looking Abbott Government, which has definitely dropped the ball.

Living Green: Power in Renewables | Beyond Zero Emissions (http://bze.org.au/media/newswire/living-green-power-renewables-131007)

Studies for the government's own review of the RET have also found that, after an initial cost rise because of the upfront investment, it could actually result in lower power prices after 2020.

Renewable energy target: Economic modelling shows household bills to rise in short term, drop long term - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/ret-would-reduce-household-bills/5544658)

So, it seems a clear choice between staying with the current coal-based system and watching prices skyrocket or investing for the future and being better off in the medium to long term. Pretty easy choice really IMHO.

Sent from my D1 using overweight hamsters.

Price rises are for distribution, very little price movement in the wholesale price of power, put simply, prices have not risen for the "mud burning, earth killing brown coal generators" again, this is a furphy

You also still need a grid to be renewable, which is where the price rises are....

Also, there is nothing about the actual how to achieve 100% renewable base load in those articles, they lack, as always, substance on the technical aspects which make it impossible to achieve 100% reliably and relatively economically

KarlB

24th June 2014, 11:16 AM

Wow, 10 houses for a few days.

Pretty sure people have been on stand alone for many years succesfully, but I wonder if I went and turned on 5 Clothes dryers, 7 electric hot water systems, 4 ovens some kettle and toasters and of course soem A/C how well there system would function

Its hardly viable evidence

You are right about Utsira in Norway. But to move closer to home, the ACT is on target for 90% of energy requirements to be supplied by renewable resources by 2020 with solar contributing about 20%. The rest will be generated from wind and from waste. (See 90 percent renewable energy target - Environment and Sustainable Development Directorate (http://www.environment.act.gov.au/energy/90_percent_renewable)). The expected cost of achieving the 90% renewable energy target will peak at around $5 per household per week in 2020. Even with this commitment to renewables Canberra is likely to maintain the lowest electricity prices in Australia. Oh, the population of the ACT is about 350,000 people, living in about 145,000 households.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

rovercare

24th June 2014, 12:32 PM

You are right about Utsira in Norway. But to move closer to home, the ACT is on target for 90% of energy requirements to be supplied by renewable resources by 2020 with solar contributing about 20%. The rest will be generated from wind and from waste. (See 90 percent renewable energy target - Environment and Sustainable Development Directorate (http://www.environment.act.gov.au/energy/90_percent_renewable)). The expected cost of achieving the 90% renewable energy target will peak at around $5 per household per week in 2020. Even with this commitment to renewables Canberra is likely to maintain the lowest electricity prices in Australia. Oh, the population of the ACT is about 350,000 people, living in about 145,000 households.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

2/3rds of their generation is wind...interesting when the air is still

I would imagine its easier to keep elec prices low in the ACT.......the size of the distribution grid is how big compared to the other states and territories?...

Using waste is getting to a more viable way of baseload generation as its predictable, moreso and controllable, unlike the sun and the wind

The government has made a promise, so I guess it must be true:)

Don't worry about being hooked to the rest of the eastern seaboard for stability though or the lack of commercial/industrial type stuff in Canberra, which is actually the predominant consumer of electrickery.

Rurover

24th June 2014, 11:08 PM

I agree that the issue of "base load" power is critical to the future of renewables in Australia and other places.
However we DO now have the technology to make much wider use of renewable energy sources.
Smart meters (and grids) can ration energy for non-critical uses such as refrigeration and air conditioning so that they switch off for short periods of high load.
New battery technology such as the Vanadium Redox units can theoretically be installed in Megawatt sized installations to buffer the output of large solar and wind generators.
The advent of electric cars (yeah, I know... very slow to be adopted) will eventually provide a huge, dispersed array of battery buffers in the grid and it's now becoming close to viable to install domestic sized battery banks for grid-connected small scale solar installations, so the energy you generate during the day can be stored for night time use.

Then as has been mentioned, there's the use of salt tanks to store heat energy, the use of pumped water to generate hydro, and the breaking of water into H2 and O2 for use in a fuel cell. (Which by the way produces WATER as its by-product of combustion so it's not as though they'll use up vast quantities of water in the process. Certainly not as much water as is required by nuclear and COAL fired power stations which have to generate steam!!! Not to mention the threat to our critical surface and underground water caused by coal and coal seam gas mining.
I live in an area where our underground water is our most precious resource and while it might suit city forks to glibly say "we have plenty of coal and gas, so why not use it", the mining of these NON-renewable commodities has the potential to cause all sorts of environmental,economic, health and social problems in MY community. This has already happened in many parts of Eastern Australia and the South West of WA. (Read the book "Rich land, wasteland").

The head of the SA high voltage power distributor, Electranet, has said publicly that in the next few years, it'll be cheaper for new housing developments (especially in rural areas) to be self sufficient in renewable power, rather than connect to the grid. Same for many communities at the end of the grid. In fact the grid managers would love to see the more remote parts of their grids go "self sufficient" as it's so costly to supply them with power.

I was at a "Community Energy Congress" in Canberra last week and heard about some small remote aboriginal communities in the Kimberley being supplied with mainly diesel power at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. (Yep, we taxpayers pay much of that cost). Madness, when renewables can do the job much more cheaply.

Re the issue of "base load" power, don't forget that in Australia we have hardly even considered the use of bio energy from forest thinnings, waste streams, sea grass (yes, seaweed!) and agricultural "waste" etc. In Europe, many rural communities use co-generation plants fed by renewables to supply power and heating for the community. In Adelaide a company called ResourceCo is collecting building site waste , separating out the metal, (which they sell) and rubble (which is made into concrete) and then shredding the combustible component for use in the local cement factory (the state's biggest single user of power).

Right now, in the South East of SA (where I live) there are a couple of major project son the books to use forest waste to generate industrial quantities of BASE LOAD power. Also a company looking to make wood pellets. largely for export to Europe, because we're too stupid to have large scale bio energy plants in Australia!

Regarding the issue of renewables being a problem for the network in terms of managing voltage fluctuations etc. Well as has been mentioned in many parts of Europe, renewables are THE major source of local power. They seem to manage the networks OK in Germany, Denmark, etc. Why can't we do it in Australia?
I suggest the local power retailers, generators, and distributors need to get used to the fact that the energy game is going to change dramatically (despite "King Canute" Tony Abbott and his colleagues trying to hold back the tide). It's a scary scenario for them, because as the price of power goes up, more and more people will choose to go off-grid or generate some of their own power. Then the remaining poor sods still relying on grid power will have to be charged more to keep the whole edifice viable, which means even more will adopt local renewable power etc etc.
Note that the price of solar panels is now close to being cheaper than coal fired power (especially when you consider the REAL costs to us as taxpayers in subsidising coal extraction.... see this article Mining the age of entitlement | The Australia Institute (http://www.tai.org.au/content/mining-age-entitlement))
That only mentions actual dollar subsidies and does not mention the hidden social, health and environmental costs. (Including global warming costs folks.... don't forget THAT little elephant in the room!)

Now I have children and grand children and when I die, I'd like to think that my generation did NOT dig up all the coal and extract all the gas and wreck the environment in the process, just so we could suck on so called "cheaper power" for a few more years, instead of adopting long term sustainable renewable power. The next generations will judge us very harshly if we don't stop being so myopic, and well...selfish!

Alan

rovercare

25th June 2014, 06:47 AM

Its a great supplement, the issues with why we can't do it here, is yayy, Germany has a lot of renewable energy, but is hooked in a grid which which far smaller than ours on the eastern seaboard, linked to a whole heap of nuclear, coal fired etc generators, whilst this allows a country to utelise more renewable as a percentage of what is on their network it substantially lessens

We need to find a viable way to spin turbo generators, large ones, to make it viable, and of course it has to be economical, again, much more difficult on a grid spanning the eastern seaboard of Australia with a sparce population

Also a lot that are on renewables in small pockets around the globe have 1, reliability issues 2. no manufacturing/industrial stuff to contend with

The general public is not willing to have their A/C turn off on a hot day......now if you could change peoples mindsets!......but remember, the only person you can actually control all the time is yourself:D

I admire your use of a few token taboo words like climate change and coal seam gas, they generally get peoples 'emotional mind' kicking in

Are YOU prepared to pay the bill?

DiscoMick

25th June 2014, 02:20 PM

rovercare

25th June 2014, 02:36 PM

Some renewables can produce baseload power while it seems the way forward is a mixture of technologies and strategies. Coal will retain a role for a while, but its going to be of declining importance as time passes, I think.

Renewable energy can provide baseload power - here's how (http://theconversation.com/renewable-energy-can-provide-baseload-power-heres-how-2221)

That article simply states the obvious, please keep in mind, when I say its not suitable for base load generation, I am being realistic.....knowing the only person I can fully control is me....changing mindsets of the consumer, hahaha

No **** if you use less power and become flexible in your use you can get away with it....improvise, adapt, overcome....ask any off grid person, its a lifestyle choice, that has downsides you need to be happy to live with

I mean really, we could just stop using power full stop! that would solve all the problems, really, it would:D

The best renewable around is hydro, but that was stopped decades ago in Tas

There is a solution, but its a whole nother topic:angel:

DiscoMick

25th June 2014, 02:47 PM

Rurover

25th June 2014, 03:11 PM

Are YOU prepared to pay the bill?

Yes I AM prepared to pay, because if I don’t pay then my children and grand-children will pay a much higher cost. In terms of their health, environmental damage and in terms of future power costs.
I suspect the best way to pay, is via some sort of emissions trading scheme, but if a so called “carbon tax” is required to drive the transition to renewables, then I’m happy to pay that.

However do remember that we are right now paying a significant price to use fossil fuels. Not just the energy cost, but through government subsidies to the industry, through damage to the environment, through damage to our health etc.
I’d much rather pay a cost that yields a better future than pay a cost which traps us in an unsustainable past.

Re the use of nuclear energy as Base load. I agree that nuclear has a role, but not large scale monolithic power stations which take a decade or so to plan and build, but small scale “modular” units which can be set up in months if necessary. Eg. Westinghouse SMR (http://westinghousenuclear.com/smr/index.htm)
There are many manufacturers around the world working on this technology and it’s much cheaper, safer and less “polluting” (in terms of radioactive waste) than the technology we’ve used in the past.

The future, using these small modular nuclear units, plus renewables, is a much more dispersed, and decentralised power network, where power is generated at many nodes rather than in a few huge power stations. This results in a much less costly and stressed network, less likelihood of power disruptions due to weather, breakdowns or sabotage, and an opportunity for local communities to invest in and take ownership of power generation, and perhaps even distribution. So the power system becomes “democratised”. Is that a bad thing?

I also like the idea that for me, living in a rural community, it could act as a catalyst for decentralisation of our economy and our political system. In SA where I live, the economy and the political system are incredibly centralised around Adelaide... the regions are only an afterthought (though we do generate much of the state’s wealth).
In Australia, the most urbanised and centralised country in the world, any move to decentralise power (in both senses) has to be a healthy thing.

Alan

rovercare

25th June 2014, 03:18 PM

Rather than thinking of one system, we have to learn to think of a range of systems connected together to provide the same result as coal-fired baseload power.
For example, wind systems distributed over a wide area should always have some production occurring, thermal is another choice, solar can provide some direct power and gas can be a backup when a quick boost is needed.

The current system already operates like this by connecting interstate grids as coal fired stations can't be quickly started and stopped.

Its just a different way of thinking about how it can be done.

http://www.ceem.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/MarkBaseloadFallacyANZSEE.pdf

Denmark is well on the way to its target of 100% renewable energy by 2050, abandoning coal, oil and gas, and has developed a big export industry in its technologies. It is looking at storing wind power in heat pumps.

Denmark leads the charge in renewable energy | European Elections 2014 | DW.DE | 02.05.2014 (http://www.dw.de/denmark-leads-the-charge-in-renewable-energy/a-17603695)

It's going to happen. Our choice is either to ignore what's happening elsewhere or else get on board. Already we're at 15% renewable and 20,000 jobs, but that is at risk because of the current government's old-fashioned outdated ideas, which are threatening future jobs.

Again, nothing plausible on the how to, lots of slander though

Again, not sustainable in a sensible manner and at 20-30% even %40, it an excellent supplement...which I agree with by the way

Until you can run a atleast a 200ishMW turbogenset continuously, on renewable energy, you wont be using it for baseload generation

The unspoken parts of how the grid works, utelising turbogenerators for lead/lag for frequency control on the grid......voltage fluctuations due to green energy and the fact that inverters used both with wind and PV, all need to raise grid voltage to 'push' electricity in the grid, again, when everybody is trying to rise grid voltage it gets difficult to control

I spent more than a few years working in mud burners, and in the distribution network and currently work in a remote facility in PNG with our own grid and 7 gas fired generators in PNG, also the last few years putting up a lot of rooftop solar....2 10KW's to do in a few weeks:D.....so I have seen a bit about power generation

Keep in mind the Danes are hooked to the eastern European electricity grid and no one mentions import/export figures, not that articles like this or governments would ever skew the figures and of course, eastern Europe is almost entirely fuelled on rose pettles and good intentions

rovercare

25th June 2014, 03:32 PM

Yes I AM prepared to pay, because if I don’t pay then my children and grand-children will pay a much higher cost. In terms of their health, environmental damage and in terms of future power costs.
I suspect the best way to pay, is via some sort of emissions trading scheme, but if a so called “carbon tax” is required to drive the transition to renewables, then I’m happy to pay that.

However do remember that we are right now paying a significant price to use fossil fuels. Not just the energy cost, but through government subsidies to the industry, through damage to the environment, through damage to our health etc.
I’d much rather pay a cost that yields a better future than pay a cost which traps us in an unsustainable past.

Re the use of nuclear energy as Base load. I agree that nuclear has a role, but not large scale monolithic power stations which take a decade or so to plan and build, but small scale “modular” units which can be set up in months if necessary. Eg. Westinghouse SMR (http://westinghousenuclear.com/smr/index.htm)
There are many manufacturers around the world working on this technology and it’s much cheaper, safer and less “polluting” (in terms of radioactive waste) than the technology we’ve used in the past.

The future, using these small modular nuclear units, plus renewables, is a much more dispersed, and decentralised power network, where power is generated at many nodes rather than in a few huge power stations. This results in a much less costly and stressed network, less likelihood of power disruptions due to weather, breakdowns or sabotage, and an opportunity for local communities to invest in and take ownership of power generation, and perhaps even distribution. So the power system becomes “democratised”. Is that a bad thing?

I also like the idea that for me, living in a rural community, it could act as a catalyst for decentralisation of our economy and our political system. In SA where I live, the economy and the political system are incredibly centralised around Adelaide... the regions are only an afterthought (though we do generate much of the state’s wealth).
In Australia, the most urbanised and centralised country in the world, any move to decentralise power (in both senses) has to be a healthy thing.

Alan

So you are prepared to pay for it....tell me, are you grid connected? where does your power come from now? who is your retailer and energy agreement if its 'green'?

How does industry cope? (not that we will have much left soon enough:angel:) There is facility's that have feeders supplying solely them, its not the domestic household that suffers so much with the grid problems its heavy commercial/industrial....domestic does in large populous in remote locations

You do have some great points earlier in regards to smart meters, and that is full well there intent, load shedding has gone on forever, but no they can disperse it over whole massive area's, where as before it was centralized to only feeders which supplied housing with non critical consumers

The possibility's increase as the level of service decreases, that's the purpose reliable baseload generation serves....starting convincing business that you should be able to load shed them, have unusual frequency/voltage(where everything can work fine, but is detrimental to the service life of things with elements/windings) and you are off to a start