"Cheaper" oxy-acetylene

[p38arover]

I gave up using my oxy set years ago because of the very high cost of cylinder hire from CIG (BOC). I previously had 10-year lease cylinders from Air Liquide but I don't think they do non-commercial stuff any more.

However, it seems Bunnings in some parts of NSW now lease small D size cylinders which are exchanged much like LPG cylinders. The cylinders come from CoreGas http://www.tradegas.com.au/

Perhaps I'll get my oxy set out of the cupboard. :)

As an aside, I've noticed a couple of eBayers selling oxy gear complete with cylinders. I've not bothered bidding as I've assumed one can't get them filled or exchanged by BOC.

[isuzurover]

A lot of tradies seem to be using oxy-propane these days to save money.

[p38arover]

Yes, oxy-propane would probably be hot enough for what I do, i.e., silver soldering or brazing. Propane alone just isn't hot enough for silver soldering anything with a bit of mass.

I think I'd have to buy new welding equipment to change systems.

My CIG Comet system is still in very good nick. :(

[isuzurover]

...

My CIG Comet system is still in very good nick. :(

You just need to change the tip.

[p38arover]

Hmm, I wonder if BOC still service CIG Comet systems, e.g., tips.

What about my regulators? I guess the oxy one will be OK but I'd need a new propane reg - or do they not use one? That reduces the bottle hire if I don't have acetylene.

I've not investigated oxy-propane.

I assume my cutting gear won't work with oxy-propane.

[p38arover]

I just had a look, BOC make an LPG upgrade kit that costs $330. I doubt I'm going that route. I may be better off going the CoreGas route with my existing equipment.

There are sure to be cheaper options.

I see one can cut with oxy-propane.

I just realised, I think my system is a Comet Jr 2. I'll have to go through the garage filing cabinet for the instructions.

[isuzurover]

I just had a look, BOC make an LPG upgrade kit that costs $330. I doubt I'm going that route.

The upgrade kit is size 15 tips - which come in the standard kit too!!!
You don't need to change the reg, they are just trying to sell you stuff.

A quick search on the welding/shop forums turns up:


I have used my acetylene regulator on propane for over 10 years. I have had no problems.


Acetylene regulators sometimes have lower output pressure ranges than propane, but this poses no problem for most use. Victor 450-series regulators and some others have stainless-steel diaphragms and use the same seat part numbers for acetylene and propane, so it's incapable of damaging them. (Thanks to OADoctor on Weldingweb for that tip, confirmed by downloading the manuals from Thermadyne.)

All common regulators have their part numbers available online, if you want to to check yours. The Seal-Seat catalogs cover most common makes.


When I switched over to propane from acetylene I use about 5 lbs more regulated line pressure as I did before the switch over (11-12 years ago) no problems.

[p38arover]

My regulators are CIG Monitor 2 units like this:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/893.jpg

[workingonit]

I have found oxy-acet very handy at times but, as others have indicated, the rental was a killer.

When ending my lease I asked the gas company could I buy bottles from them - no! If I could get my own bottles would they fill them - maybe, and I would be charged an inspection fee each time, and their own bottles would get priority on all occassion. I got the impression they would keep them at the end of the line until they were hassled enough to fill them.

Seems people can own bottles privately in the US - why can't we? I wonder how much revenue flows out of Oz under current arrangements?

And I don't accept the 'safety is an issue' line. I had one rental set for over 3 years and not once called upon for a safety check - so long as you pay the rental they don't care. They will argue that their hire system keeps us safe. One oxygen bottle valve was done up so tight by their fill depot to stop the valve leaking that I had to use a wrench to get it open. Saw a BHP safety bulletin once that said any oxygen bottle that cannot be opened by hand is a safety hazard because of the danger of high exit pressures and ignition of any oil contamination source. On other occasions I've had difficulties getting my near new regulators to seat on the scored necks on hire bottles.

I'd certainly be interested if someone can recommend an oxy-acet equivalent system but where you only had to buy the gas, and the bottles are yours - without having to live overseas :).

[Dougal]

Plenty of people are now using lpg-oxy systems. Depends on your use though.

[bee utey]

Anyone seen this?

Energytech PRO CUT OXY Petrol Cutting SET 90 Savings Over OXY Acetylene | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EnergyTech-PRO-CUT-Oxy-Petrol-Cutting-Set-90-SAVINGS-over-Oxy-Acetylene-/160988216064?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item257ba53b00)

[101 Ron]

I converted to Oxy LPG about 2 years ago at work to half the bottle rental hassle.( Don't deal with CIG/BOC as they are complete bums with customer service and the way they act and behave with charging and accounting on the hire bottles the are a one sided law to themselves)
I managed to buy everything I needed to replace my Old gear from a shop that was closing down.
In the real world with correctly adjusted flame and correct tips on the old comet 3 system the LPG cuts , heats metal just as good as the old set up using acetylene.
I have cut mild steel 6 inches thick without problems and can heat and bend the same using a heavy duty large LPG/oxy heating torch.
The old comet 3 gear is easily converted, but you need a little bit of practice in adjusting the flames with the different fuel.
I use a barbeque bottle for the LPG and strap it in where the Acetylene bottle used to go.
I am able to easily refill the LPG bottle from a bulk supply I have access to.
The only draw back I can find is the old flint gun will not work, you must use a cig lighter .

[p38arover]

Ron, where do you get oxygen refills from?

[Scouse]

Ron, where do you get oxygen refills from?Gasweld do Oxygen now. You buy a full bottle & then when it's empty, you can do a changeover at one of their stores.
Tools | Trade Tools | In-store or Tools Online | Gasweld (http://www.gasweld.com.au/)


I have my Argoshield through them now & will be getting the Oxy once my shed is up.

[Toxic_Avenger]

I work for a major gas supplier, so this thread interests me, and I feel I have some points to offer.
Happy to discuss any finer points, dispel any myths, or offer advice where needed, via PM. Don't be shy, happy to help if needed.


Yes, oxy-propane would probably be hot enough for what I do, i.e., silver soldering or brazing. Propane alone just isn't hot enough for silver soldering anything with a bit of mass.

General rule of thumb is that you can cut, braze and solder with oxy LPG. Welding is not recommended.


Hmm, I wonder if BOC still service CIG Comet systems, e.g., tips.

What about my regulators? I guess the oxy one will be OK but I'd need a new propane reg - or do they not use one? That reduces the bottle hire if I don't have acetylene.

I've not investigated oxy-propane.

I assume my cutting gear won't work with oxy-propane.

Most gas suppliers do not service gas equipment, mainly due to their defined lifespan stipulated by Australian standards and enforced by workcover(NSW). Parts, if available are generally not econonical to replace by a gas fitter, as new units (with warranty) generally come in cheaper.

To convert Oxy DA to oxy LPG, you need the following:
-LPG regulator
-Oxy LPG hose (different rubber formulation to prevent deterioration, and correct Australian standards colour)
-Cutting / welding tips to suit.


I just had a look, BOC make an LPG upgrade kit that costs $330.
Last time I checked, full Oxy LPG kits were under the $400 mark. New blowpipe, cutting attachement, tips regs, everything.


My regulators are CIG Monitor 2 units like this:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/893.jpg
Jesus, you must love antiques!
With old regs, remember best practice to leak test everything before commencing work. Acetylene in particular has a very low LEL (lower explosive limit) which will create explosive environment if left to accumulate (during a lunch break for example).
Also keep in mind HP oxygen can cause combustion of oils and greases without the presence of a flame. I rmember seeing a safety bulletin of a mechanic who dialled in a reg which was leaking from the HP side of the diaphraghm. His hands were covered in grease, the oxy ignited the grease, and his hand was burnt beyond recognition. Not many people know this fact about oxygen, so keep safe guys.

[workingonit]

Toxic, any views on the likes of multiplaz. Saw some light fab work at AllTools and the welds looked good.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Toxic, any views on the likes of multiplaz. Saw some light fab work at AllTools and the welds looked good.

Mate, to be honest I've never even heard of this product before. The concept is not new (plasma cutting / welding) but having it so portable is rather novel.
I looked thru their website, and some of the statements are worded a bit funny, devoid of any real substance regarding what is actually happening during the 'welding process'.
"MULTIPLAZ-3500 provides also an ecologically friendly metalworking method that does not involve either combustion process itself nor combustible materials. No noxious poisonous gases like propane, acetylene, nitrogen, and etc are employed. Moreover, the atmosphere inside working space is enriched with oxygen when device is in use.
Thus, the unprecedented ecological compatibility of this plasmatron makes it possible to perform operations in enclosed spaces without ventilation like offices, premises for living, pipes, shafts, wells, tunnels, basements and etc."


Nevertheless, It looks to be a good product for certain applications, probably not the process that will replace MIG/TIG in heavy fabrication, but otherwise a good process for those guys at home who want to stick 2 bits of metal together without having a primary concern for longevity of the repair.


On first look, it just appears to be a plasma heat source to take the place of gas welding, brazing and soldering, while being able to plasma cut. This is not to be confused with arc welding, which is a whole different process.

In arc welding, the presence of oxygen (which this product purports to produce) leads to weld porosity and contamination of the weld. So not sure how it would perform on a structural fabrication job or heavy repair.

[scarry]

My regulators are CIG Monitor 2 units like this:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/893.jpg

Those regs were great,we found they were very rarely damaged.The later ones with the guages sticking out are easily damaged.You can get protection covers for the later ones but the guages still seem to get damaged doing service work.

As others have said,be careful with them as they are very old,the rubber components may be perished..Someone also told me you are not actually allowed to use them anymore,but i can't remember who or why(seniors disease:()

[Toxic_Avenger]

Those regs were great,we found they were very rarely damaged.The later ones with the guages sticking out are easily damaged.You can get protection covers for the later ones but the guages still seem to get damaged doing service work.

As others have said,be careful with them as they are very old,the rubber components may be perished..Someone also told me you are not actually allowed to use them anymore,but i can't remember who or why(seniors disease:()

Gauges are replaceable items (generally <$20), but are usually damaged by ham-fisted numpties who like dropping cylinders. With proper care, any reg will die well after its lifespan according to our mates at workcover, but in a workplace, using gas equipment after that date is a risk to their own.
When you pull a gauge apart though, there is only a small bourdon tube which separates 20 bar pressure from the outside world. Obviously a hard life on the back of a fridgie's ute, or dragged under houses to repair plumbing will drastically reduce the life of these parts.

[p38arover]

Jesus, you must love antiques!

It wasn't antique when I bought it - it was brand new.

[Scouse]

Yes, oxy-propane would probably be hot enough for what I do, i.e., silver soldering or brazing. Hare & Forbes have this for sale:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/290.jpg

K075 | Turboset 200 Package Professional & Portable Mini Gas Set Package | machineryhouse.com.au (http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/K075)

[101 Ron]

Ron, where do you get oxygen refills from?

I still use a gas company to hire a oxy bottle.
I suggest to use a small gas company independent from the bigger suppliers if possible as they are more responsive customer wise and try harder as they are smaller.
I am happy with a company called Supa Gas.

I use them for forklift LPG bottles if I need them for long term on site supply to forklifts I hire out and for oxy and MIG welding gas.
If I have a problem I can talk the owner of the business......bottle filling and hire and the problem is sorted.

Beware of a welding gas supplier retailer who uses the bigger gas suppliers, for if there is any problem they say its not us, ring the number of our supplier which supplies the filled bottles/hire which gets you no where but to a highly trained person which acts to keep their job and not help you.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Hare & Forbes have this for sale:
http://images.machineryhouse.com.au/K075/0/700

K075 | Turboset 200 Package Professional & Portable Mini Gas Set Package | machineryhouse.com.au (http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/K075)

VERY conservative oxygen consumption when cutting 3mm steel is approx 15lpm. at this rate, you can expect to cut about 60cm per minute.
Not sure what the Litre volume of that little cylinder is but when you calculate it out, there isn't much in there at all. Factor in a fuel gas: oxygen ration for MAPP of 1:3, and it sort of all comes into play.
1) A "c" size cylinder of approx 400L capacity will last ~26minutes
2) At this rate you could expect to use 3 times that volume of fuel gas (MAPP), or the same volume of acetylene (1:1 ratio).
3) This does not factor time it takes to setup torch, idle burn time when laying out the job, etc.
4) There would also be draw-off rate concerns for the fuel cylinder- little cylinders like that can only evaporate liquid to gas at a set rate relative to the surface area of the cylinder (inside). Big heat applications or thick cutting would not work.

Would be interesting to know what pressure those baby cylinders are filled to, and what their volume is at a given temp and pressure. Then I could do a real comparison!
If you speak to the right guy, getting a D size cylinder (1m3) at the price of one of those little baby ones would not be too hard. You could easily pick up 8 cubes of oxy for under a hungy if you know how to haggle.

Real men use G size cylinders. Nothing proves one's manliness like lugging around 60kg of asbestos filled acetylene cylinder to get the job done. :twisted:

[p38arover]

I don't think I'd go one of those. I thought D were small! I used to use E size cylinders. One was aluminium which helped, weightwise

[gazk]

However, it seems Bunnings in some parts of NSW now lease small D size cylinders which are exchanged much like LPG cylinders. The cylinders come from CoreGas Coregas &ndash; Trade N Go Gas™ is So Easy &ndash; Available at Bunnings Warehouse (http://www.tradegas.com.au/)


Checked out the coregas cylinders at Bunnings: The deal is $200 "deposit" on each "D" size cylinder plus $69 for oxygen (2.1m3) and $99 for acetylene (1.0m3) - swap empty for full cylinders for the price of the gas. When you no longer need the cylinders return for refund of your "deposit".

Seems like a reasonable deal if you don't use much gas but like to have them available in the shed. Sure beats paying annual rent on cylinders that don't get much use.

[p38arover]

Does anyone know how that gas price compares with BOC?

[Bigbjorn]

I returned my oxygen and acetylene cylinders to BOC years ago. I was fed up with paying what I saw as exorbitant rental. Cutting tools have improved out of sight in the last 20 years. Battery powered hand held bandsaws, 1.0 mm cutting discs, pneumatic jigsaws etc. I was only using the gas set for cutting and preheating or removing stuck bearings, bolts, etc. An LPG cylinder has enough oomph for the latter. Early this year I returned the Argoshield cylinder on my mig to BOC. The rental had gone up to $214 per annum. "Enough" cried I. I bought a cylinder from Speedgas for the equivalent of two years rental plus the charge of gas. Terrific service. I 'phoned the rep at 1.00pm and the cylinder was delivered by 4.00pm. Paid by debit card to the driver.

[p38arover]

The reason, in 1995, that I bought (perhaps mistakenly, in hindsight) a gasless MIG was because of cylinder hire costs. I'm not a big user of my MIG. If I could convert it to gas, I'd probably do it now that there are other options for gas. Mine is a WIA unit.

[101RRS]

I put my 20yo Mig into storage years ago because of the price of gas bottle rental. I bought a Speedie Gas bottle and now us the Mig all the time - is a nice easy ad now cheap piece of kit to use.

Also now thinking of buying an Oxygen bottle to use with LPG for cutting and heating. Might get a cheap plasma cutter with my air compressor providing the air as an alternative.

Garry

[dhc4ever]

Unfortunately speedgas doesnt do oxygen or acetylene.
Wait for that to happen as my oxy set has sat in the draw for 10 years.

[Scouse]

Unfortunately speedgas doesnt do oxygen or acetylene.
Wait for that to happen as my oxy set has sat in the draw for 10 years.Speedgas do oxy through Gasweld now & as stated in the first post, oxy & acetylene are available through a similar scheme at Bunnings. You don't appear to be able to buy the bottle outright at Bunnings as it appears to be a one off deposit.


While I don't have a need to dig out my oxy set, I'll be checking out the price differences between Bunnings & Gasweld shortly.

[Tank]

My regulators are CIG Monitor 2 units like this:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/893.jpg
Ron, Oxy-propane have been around for decades, all the profile cutters at Cockatoo island used Oxy-Propane, that was back in the 70's, uses a bit more pressure than Acetylene, used to cut all thicknesses, even a foot thick, regards Frank.

[dhc4ever]

Scouse,
Unfortunately it appears neither option is available up here in QLD, yet.
Gasweld have no stores up here, bunnings dont do oxygen up here either, bunnings lite anyone?

[Rick Fischer]

Just a word :) Cutting with Oxy set.

It is the oxygen that does the cutting! The fuel gas oxy mix just heats the metal to the point where the higher pressure oxygen lance can burn/oxidize the metal. Once started the "heat" section of the torch is irrelevant unless one goes to fast for the lance. Thickness to be cut is a function of the centre lance pressure.

Must go check with bunnings. Have my current acetylene cyl rent bill in front of me :(

Cheers

RF

[rover-56]

Those regs were great,we found they were very rarely damaged.The later ones with the guages sticking out are easily damaged.You can get protection covers for the later ones but the guages still seem to get damaged doing service work.

As others have said,be careful with them as they are very old,the rubber components may be perished..Someone also told me you are not actually allowed to use them anymore,but i can't remember who or why(seniors disease:()

I think CIG increased the oxy bottle pressure, which meant that EVERYONE had to buy new oxy regs. Guess what- CIG sell regs.:D:D
Cost my employer at that time around $600k.
Terry

[Toxic_Avenger]

I think CIG increased the oxy bottle pressure, which meant that EVERYONE had to buy new oxy regs. Guess what- CIG sell regs.:D:D
Cost my employer at that time around $600k.
Terry
Volume of gas in a cylinder is a function of cylinder pressure... which in real world terms is the frequency of cylinder changes.
Cylinder changes cost money. This can be because of lost productivity, changeover time, poor welding properties causing re-work or at worst having to scrap the workpiece. Farmer Hoggett's broken gate is not going to be a massive loss, but if you work to a schedule under a delivery deadline, this can be important.
Even your humble plumber without his oxy set will need to take an hour out of his 8 hour day to make the round trip to pick up more gas if he runs out half way thru the job. If this happens once a week, then it costs the company, what... $130 billable hourly rate per week x 48 weeks in a year (can't work him too hard, eh ;)) to total a $6240 hit to his bottom line at the end of the year. For a sole trader this equals a big hole in the schooner budget.
Scale this up to a mining company grossing billions per year, and this works out to be a big loss. Into the millions. It is this very reason why key manufacturing sites do not **** around with cylinders, instead having manifolded packs, bulk vessels, or Air Separation Units on site.

Today's cylinder manufacturers (and gas retailers) are in a race to get the highest volume in their cylinders for this very reason- customers value it.

Oh, and CIG hasn't sold gas since 1994. Your argument point is 20 years out of date :eek:

[rover-56]

"Oh, and CIG hasn't sold gas since 1994. Your argument point is 20 years out of date"

Yes that would have been about the time. I remember an Aus wide ban on using existing oxy regs because of OHS implications. Employer was not under production pressure, just had perfectly good oxy sets everywhere which were no longer able to be used.

Terry

[p38arover]

I think CIG increased the oxy bottle pressure, which meant that EVERYONE had to buy new oxy regs. Guess what- CIG sell regs.:D:D

I just had a look at the current specs for a CIG Cutskill 800kPa Oxy reg and it doesn't appear to be greatly different to my Monitor 2 reg.

First column is the Cutskill and the second is the Monitor 2
Max outlet pressure (kPa) 800 vs 705 (I think - the spec sheet for the Monitor labels the 705 figure as "Delivery Range")
Rated Air Flow (l/min) 310 vs 600
Inlet Gauge range (kPa) 30,000 vs 27,480 (that's 4351psi vs 4040 psi)
Outlet Gauge Range (kPa) 1,600 vs 825

The last is the biggie but the reg is only rated to 800kPa.

So it begs the question, can my regs be used with modern cylinders?

[Toxic_Avenger]

So it begs the question, can my regs be used with modern cylinders?

Short answer: 'yes'
Longer answer: If they are too old the diaphragms may be rooted, and cause a leak- leak test before use. If workcover asks, they are decommissioned.
I'd go the higher spec reg if you are doing heating or cutting thick plate, as you need the flow rate to do this.
Inlet gauge range- keep in mind that just because the gauge reads to 30 Bar, it may not be capable of that inlet pressure. Check what's stamped into the reg body. Same goes for outlet pressures. That being said, the highest 'Extra High Pressure' cylinders are still about 25-30 Bar.

[Bigbjorn]

Oh, and CIG hasn't sold gas since 1994. Your argument point is 20 years out of date :eek:

All that happened is that the sign on the gate was changed from CIG to BOC. Same premises, same products, same staff. Same ****ty business practices.

[Toxic_Avenger]

All that happened is that the sign on the gate was changed from CIG to BOC. Same premises, same products, same staff. Same ****ty business practices.

Mergers and acquisitions are not a new concept in business.
Can you provide an example where a company acquires another at considerable expense, then proceeds to rip down the building, fires all the staff, changes their range of core products, and then completely changes everything they do (good practices and bad)?
Invalid argument is invalid.

I can't help but feel that you have an axe to grind regarding this subject? Every business / industry has its faults if you look deep enough. Happy to answer your questions / concerns if you want to get in touch?

[scarry]

Bunnings have a system for oxy & acet bottles,only for the 'D' size.

The system has only just started in Brisbane,may have been in other areas previously.

There is no rental,a deposit on each bottle of $200,then the cost of the gas.You keep the bottle as long as you want.Return the empty bottle and get your deposit back or take another and only pay for the gas.

The volume in the bottle is slightly more than the volume in the BOC bottles.Gas price very similar to BOC,slightly cheaper.

We have a couple of Coregas bottles now,as it is called and will gradually change the 8 we have over to Coregas.

Slightly over one years rental from BOC equals the deposits we will pay on the 8 bottles.

Convenience for us is another reason we will go the core gas way,Bunnings are everywhere,where the BOC branches and subbranches are getting less and less.

[d2dave]

Also keep in mind HP oxygen can cause combustion of oils and greases without the presence of a flame. I rmember seeing a safety bulletin of a mechanic who dialled in a reg which was leaking from the HP side of the diaphraghm. His hands were covered in grease, the oxy ignited the grease, and his hand was burnt beyond recognition. Not many people know this fact about oxygen, so keep safe guys.

I used to have a regular visitor to my caravan park. He was a retired plumber.

A few years age he tried to find the leak in the aircon in his Commodore. He hooked up his oxy bottle to pressurize the system.

Needless to say he was lucky to survive the explosion which blew apart his fibro garage as well as blowing apart his eardrums, leaving him almost stone deaf.

[DoubleChevron]

I was just returning a nitrogen bottle again to BOC Gasses, I did my whinge I always do about there crazy rental prices.... When the guy says "Hang on " ... pulls out a printout. "We can now do a deal, the "D" sized nitrogen is now $70 a year with two free refills in the first year... then one a year afterwards".

So basically $70 a year with a freebie gas fill thrown in. To put this into perspective. The bottle I just rented. I think I grabbed it last December:

-- $65.00 ( ~~ ) for the bottle of nitrogen
-- $17'ish a month for rental.

So that bottle has already cost me $150 to have here.

This deal also goes for welding gasses and shielding gasses. I just tried to find the link on there website, but it doesn't exist.

So guys, if you reckon you would use about 1 bottle a year of gas. It's basically rent free to grab a bottle of gas for your mig/sphere regasser/oxy set now. I'm guessing they will only offer this if you return a bottle and say "No I'm not paying rental" and don't swap it. If you just swap your existing bottle, they won't say ****, 'cos obviously they still have your business and will charge you ~$17 +++ a month ... for each bottle as always.

seeya
Shane L.

[Homestar]

Looks like they have had to accept the fact they need to meet the market or risk losing an even bigger slice of the pie. I might hit them up again and see what I can sort out. I have a mate that reps for them - I'll give him a call.

[DoubleChevron]

Looks like they have had to accept the fact they need to meet the market or risk losing an even bigger slice of the pie. I might hit them up again and see what I can sort out. I have a mate that reps for them - I'll give him a call.

If you can get some details off him. Post them up, as it appears to NOT be in print anywhere. They must be only offering it to customers that are telling them to stick there bottle rental where the sun don't shine.... and returning the bottle. It will probably only be "D" sized too. So anyone that uses any sort of gas quantity will not be eligible.

seeya
Shane L.

[scarry]

I was just returning a nitrogen bottle again to BOC Gasses, I did my whinge I always do about there crazy rental prices.... When the guy says "Hang on " ... pulls out a printout. "We can now do a deal, the "D" sized nitrogen is now $70 a year with two free refills in the first year... then one a year afterwards".

So basically $70 a year with a freebie gas fill thrown in. To put this into perspective. The bottle I just rented. I think I grabbed it last December:

-- $65.00 ( ~~ ) for the bottle of nitrogen
-- $17'ish a month for rental.

So that bottle has already cost me $150 to have here.

This deal also goes for welding gasses and shielding gasses. I just tried to find the link on there website, but it doesn't exist.

So guys, if you reckon you would use about 1 bottle a year of gas. It's basically rent free to grab a bottle of gas for your mig/sphere regasser/oxy set now. I'm guessing they will only offer this if you return a bottle and say "No I'm not paying rental" and don't swap it. If you just swap your existing bottle, they won't say ****, 'cos obviously they still have your business and will charge you ~$17 +++ a month ... for each bottle as always.

seeya
Shane L.

I will have to check that out as we use nitrogen from Heatcraft,a supplier to the Refrig and A/C trade.We use quite a few D size nitrogens a year,our rental per bottle is well over $17.00

And coincidently Heatcraft have just started selling D size oxy and acet.I haven't had a chance to have a good look at pricing,but did notice the oxy is very cheap at around $25 a D size bottle.

So BOC need to do something as they are getting competition from everywhere:)

Although, their big market is manufacturing plants,hospitals,etc.
Us little guys are probably not wanted,which is the way many big businesses operate.

Just imagine, as an example, how many $ their account with Qld health would be.

[Homestar]

I will have to check that out as we use nitrogen from Heatcraft,a supplier to the Refrig and A/C trade.We use quite a few D size nitrogens a year,our rental per bottle is well over $17.00

And coincidently Heatcraft have just started selling D size oxy and acet.I haven't had a chance to have a good look at pricing,but did notice the oxy is very cheap at around $25 a D size bottle.

So BOC need to do something as they are getting competition from everywhere:)

Although, their big market is manufacturing plants,hospitals,etc.
Us little guys are probably not wanted,which is the way many big businesses operate.

Just imagine, as an example, how many $ their account with Qld health would be.

Although you may be right, in this day and age, more than ever - 'every customer matters'. It's one of our core values at work. I give the same amount of dedication and ensure the job is done right for a cash customer spending $100 as I do to my biggest account customer - who spends over $1,000,000 a year with us. If you accept mediocrity, that's exacly what you end up with.

[scarry]

Although you may be right, in this day and age, more than ever - 'every customer matters'. It's one of our core values at work. I give the same amount of dedication and ensure the job is done right for a cash customer spending $100 as I do to my biggest account customer - who spends over $1,000,000 a year with us. If you accept mediocrity, that's exacly what you end up with.

True,we do the same with our customers.

One reason also is the customer you do the $200/year job for,may one day be your $1000000/year customer.

[d2dave]

Last week I started the process of ridding myself the burden of BOC.

I ran out of mig gas so I took it back to BOC, politely told them they can stick their rented bottle where the sun don't shine,
then almost directly across the road went to Bunnings and picked up my rent free bottle.

Now just can't wait for my oxy and acetylene to run out

[DoubleChevron]

Last week I started the process of ridding myself the burden of BOC.

I ran out of mig gas so I took it back to BOC, politely told them they can stick their rented bottle where the sun don't shine,
then almost directly across the road went to Bunnings and picked up my rent free bottle.

Now just can't wait for my oxy and acetylene to run out

I simply can't afford them. I understand BOC gasses is obviously commercially aimed business. Commercial customers simply include bottle rental as a part of doing business.

Now take your average DIY type person. If I have a oxy set in tiny "D" sized, a shielding gas bottle for the MIG... and say a bottle of nitrogen for gassing accumulators and testing A/C systems.

Even if I don't use them, not even once in the year.... I'm looking at about $200 a year per bottle ... just to have them sitting there. The is $800 a year for bottle rental. Which is obviously insane.

My fix was to forget the oxy set. return the shielding bottle of gas and tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine quite a few years back. You see a local welding place in town started stocking tiny exchange bottle. The gas price is large. But I've found I only use a bottle a year .... So instantly saved $200 a year by returning the bottle.

It was such a hit, the couldn't keep enough bottles in stock. People were happier to drive hundreds of kms to exchange there bottle than pay the staggering amounts the BOC wanted for bottle rental.

Refrigeration, I grabbed a bottle of Hychill -30 .... once again, I own the bottle. No rental.

Rental costs absolutely crippled the DIY type person. Returning the bottles as soon as you do any small task ... yes will save on rental. However, you have used 0.05% of the gas of an oxy set that probably just cost you $150 to buy ..... to return it within a month .... absolute insanity.

Anyway, I'll ask around town and see if anyone does nitrogen where you can own the bottle. IF not, I will actually take up BOC on there offer.

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

Wow ... take your BOC bottles back even if they are still full.

Coregas "Trade n Go" Size D Acetylene Gas | Bunnings Warehouse (http://www.bunnings.com.au/coregas-trade-n-go-size-d-acetylene-gas_p5910223)

CHeck this out .... $100 for a D sized bottle from bunnings, the oxy is $70 bucks. You will be paying $400 a year is rental alone for these oxy bottle sets bottle from BOC. :o :o :o :o

This is the only reason for the BOC offer, it's no longer a captive market where they can screw us over in every possible way.

EVERYONE GIVING BOC $400 a year just so they can use there oxy set ................. FREE BOTTLE RENTAL AT YOUR LOCAL BUNNINGS STORE !!!!

[Homestar]

The deposit on the bottles is a few hundred dollars, but that's it - hang onto the bottle for 5 years then take it back - and still get your money back.

It doesn't just work for small customers either - our company has recently switched to Coregas on a national deal - we gave them a deposit based on expected volumes (which we know quite well) then only ever pay for the gas refills now - the gas is marginally more expensive than before, but the beancounters in our corporate office have still calcualted a huge saving for the company going forward.

[DoubleChevron]

The deposit on the bottles is a few hundred dollars, but that's it - hang onto the bottle for 5 years then take it back - and still get your money back.

It doesn't just work for small customers either - our company has recently switched to Coregas on a national deal - we gave them a deposit based on expected volumes (which we know quite well) then only ever pay for the gas refills now - the gas is marginally more expensive than before, but the beancounters in our corporate office have still calcualted a huge saving for the company going forward.

Yes, there is the deposit, but as you said, it's refundable. The $600 everyone is "donating" to BOC use the oxy set and mig welder isn't though :)

$600 every single year, buys a **** load of (refundable) bottle deposits !

I was looking at speedygas about 3years ago. And worked out it was cheaper to courier a MIGshield bottle down from Sydney.... A BIG one, if it last me 3years, I could throw it to the tip, and it was cheaper than renting from BOC gasses the same cylinder for 3 years :o

But now we all have ready access to rent free bottles transport and free. Yes, FREE, you don't ahve to buy the bottle. As you are given your $$$ back when you return it :banana: :banana: :banana:


seeya,
Shane L.

[123rover50]

Hey all you lot are in Victoria. does this work in Queensland as well?.
I got rid of the acetelene and use propane but still have a D oxy and a D mig gas that I havent used in over 12 months..

[Toxic_Avenger]

So what's the deposit Shane?
How many years would you, on average, sit on a D size oxy and acetylene set?
What are you using it for, exactly? (Cutting, heating, welding, brazing, flame hardening, metal spray transfer?)

I'm failing to compute your definition of 'a **** load' given the reference to your $600 per year.

[scarry]

Bunnings have a system for oxy & acet bottles,only for the 'D' size.

The system has only just started in Brisbane,may have been in other areas previously.

There is no rental,a deposit on each bottle of $200,then the cost of the gas.You keep the bottle as long as you want.Return the empty bottle and get your deposit back or take another and only pay for the gas.

The volume in the bottle is slightly more than the volume in the BOC bottles.Gas price very similar to BOC,slightly cheaper.

We have a couple of Coregas bottles now,as it is called and will gradually change the 8 we have over to Coregas.

Slightly over one years rental from BOC equals the deposits we will pay on the 8 bottles.

Convenience for us is another reason we will go the core gas way,Bunnings are everywhere,where the BOC branches and subbranches are getting less and less.

All old news guys,we have been using the system for over 12 months,no issues at all,except the pressure relief valve blew on an oxy bottle in one of the vans once.

Back to Bunnings and they swapped it over at no cost.

We have no BOC bottles anymore.

The other thing about Bunnings is they are open 7 days:)

[DoubleChevron]

So what's the deposit Shane?
How many years would you, on average, sit on a D size oxy and acetylene set?
What are you using it for, exactly? (Cutting, heating, welding, brazing, flame hardening, metal spray transfer?)

I'm failing to compute your definition of 'a **** load' given the reference to your $600 per year.

I'd say about a year for each bottle. I don't have an oxy set.... You havne't been able to give them away for the last 10years ... 'cos no-one could afford the bottle rental. 1 mig gas, 1 oxy == $600 a year rental.... even if you only use them 1/2 dozen times a year.

oxy sets are brilliant, cutting, heating to shrink metal, burning bushes out etc, etc, etc... just like a welder and lathe you wonder how you ever did without one.

I have intended for quite a few year to go oxy/lpg. The problem is first it would be $500 for a decent LPG setup with cutting tiips.... And I'd still be looking at $200 a year rental for the oxygen bottle (with the shielding gas bottle, were back to $400 a year). There isn't a snowmans chance in hell that would happen. Every month my wife cracked the ****s when the rental for the shielding gas bottle rolled in ( especially if I had a nitrogen bottle at the same time ... so was doubling up).

This may sound like nothing to you, so you can't understand the issue. Think from the perspective of someone that does all there own work ( paying someone else just means it won't be done). single wage earners with 3 young kids don't have a single cent to throw away each year, let alone $600 a year rental..... for nothing. Gas prices aren't included in that remember... That $600 is just to have the bottles sitting there.

A once off bottle deposit... you might be able to go 1/4's with a few mates on the bottle deposit (eg: $400 deposit for two bottles). But every single year, paying the same $400 out ....... Yeah right. All our wives would demand they are returned immediately. Actually, I'm going to do that ... I could easily scare up 1/2 dozen mates that would kill for access to a oxy set...

seeya,
Shane L.

[SouthOz]

I was just returning a nitrogen bottle again to BOC Gasses, I did my whinge I always do about there crazy rental prices.... When the guy says "Hang on " ... pulls out a printout. "We can now do a deal, the "D" sized nitrogen is now $70 a year with two free refills in the first year... then one a year afterwards".

So basically $70 a year with a freebie gas fill thrown in. To put this into perspective. The bottle I just rented. I think I grabbed it last December:

-- $65.00 ( ~~ ) for the bottle of nitrogen
-- $17'ish a month for rental.

So that bottle has already cost me $150 to have here.

This deal also goes for welding gasses and shielding gasses. I just tried to find the link on there website, but it doesn't exist.

So guys, if you reckon you would use about 1 bottle a year of gas. It's basically rent free to grab a bottle of gas for your mig/sphere regasser/oxy set now. I'm guessing they will only offer this if you return a bottle and say "No I'm not paying rental" and don't swap it. If you just swap your existing bottle, they won't say ****, 'cos obviously they still have your business and will charge you ~$17 +++ a month ... for each bottle as always.

seeya
Shane L.

Thanx for this post, I just got back from BOC and my Argon expenses have halved. Just ask for the "D-Plan" $165 a year, bottle comes full and 1 more refill in 12 months.

Thanx

Dave

[DoubleChevron]

Thanx for this post, I just got back from BOC and my Argon expenses have halved. Just ask for the "D-Plan" $165 a year, bottle comes full and 1 more refill in 12 months.

Thanx

Dave

Yep, brilliant isn't it .... Share it around !! 'Cos they won't :)

seeya
Shane L.

[d2dave]

Today I ran out of mig wire. I rang Total Tools for a price. $41.95

I then rang the other mob that has a three letter name. $166!! I told them about Total Tools and they dropped their price to $80 plus tax

Just goes to show what a rip off this mob is. If I had not priced elsewhere I would have just gone and paid the $166.

[Aaron IIA]

Today I ran out of mig wire. I rang Total Tools for a price. $41.95

I then rang the other mob that has a three letter name. $166!! I told them about Total Tools and they dropped their price to $80 plus tax

Just goes to show what a rip off this mob is. If I had not priced elsewhere I would have just gone and paid the $166.

Was that for 5kg or 15kg? Gas or gasless? Were you comparing the same brand of wire?

Aaron

[d2dave]

15 kg using gas. Brands were probably different, not sure, but what I got was Cigweld, which is fine by me.

[DoubleChevron]

Today I ran out of mig wire. I rang Total Tools for a price. $41.95

I then rang the other mob that has a three letter name. $166!! I told them about Total Tools and they dropped their price to $80 plus tax

Just goes to show what a rip off this mob is. If I had not priced elsewhere I would have just gone and paid the $166.

Are the stores actually allowed to drop there prices. I would have thought they were under contract to sell at the price listed. I've asked several times at BOC is xxxx (whatever I've seen) cheaper to buy if I have a commercial account etc... They insist its not. So I walked out of there door ... 3 doors down into total tools and buy the silver solder/mig wire/etc for usually 50% of the cost.

I will however say, pretty much everything I have bought from BOC has been extremely high quality and has lasted well. Even simple stuff like welding gloves. Those blue 3 layer gloves they used to sell were brilliant.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Toxic_Avenger]

TL;DR: Different grades of wire, different prices.

If you are ginning around in your shed, then chances are you don't need a high quality wire. Consumers need to understand what level of quality they can justify for their purposes.
On One side, you have high quality, european / US made wires with all the metalurgical certification to ensure that it's going to lay down the weld you want. Many times, a certifying engineer will specify a filler material (wire, rod etc) to meet a specification- usually the American Welding specification or the Australian/ NZ standard so that they can be assured of the quality of the material in the job. Sometimes in critical projects there will be welding processes that need to be followed by the tradesperson to ensure that the weld process is to spec, as well as the weld material.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are lower specs of wire, straight out of china, which are perfect for some, but will ruin the reputation of a tradesperson, or break them thru re-work or warranty returns.

As we can all understand, one product you will pay $166 bucks for, the other can lighten the pocket for as little as $41.95. But many times, the retailer will choose the products that match their customer's needs, customer base, or branding strategy (amongst many other things).

[DoubleChevron]

Yeah total tools is CIGWELD ... I wouldn't have called it low quality chinese crap though :)

Welding Wires Archives - Cigweld (http://www.cigweld.com.au/product-category/welding-consumables/welding-wires/)

I use it for exactly it's desgined use. Structural steel etc... with argon/co2 mixes

seeya,
Shane L.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Not all chinese products are rubbish.
Just the same, not all Australian made things are great :wasntme:

Dave, were you buying a standard 0.9 or 1.2mm wire, or were you looking for something silly like 0.6mm? Due to manufacturing losses as the wire is drawn thru the reducing dies, as well as supply/ demand, smaller wires are generally much more expensive than the larger diameter wires. Chances are though, if you looked around the store you visited, you'd probably be able to wrangle a 15kg spool for sub $25 if you put the thumb screws on...

[Toxic_Avenger]

Yeah total tools is CIGWELD ... I wouldn't have called it low quality chinese crap though :)

Welding Wires Archives - Cigweld (http://www.cigweld.com.au/product-category/welding-consumables/welding-wires/)

I use it for exactly it's desgined use. Structural steel etc... with argon/co2 mixes

seeya,
Shane L.

Nor would I call it crap. It is chinese though.
It's not at the bottom of the pile though. That comes in at the ER70S-3 spec... out of the box, it looks like a rusty roll of old fencing wire randomly wound on the spool.

[d2dave]

Not all chinese products are rubbish.
Just the same, not all Australian made things are great :wasntme:

Dave, were you buying a standard 0.9 or 1.2mm wire, or were you looking for something silly like 0.6mm?

0.6 and this is what I got. Should be as good as any by my book.

Autocraft LW1-6 - 0.6 / 0.8 / 0.9 / 1.0 / 1.2 / 1.6 mm - Cigweld - Victor Technologies Asia Pacific - South Pacific (http://www.cigweld.com.au/product/solid-mig-gmaw/autocraft-lw1-6/)

Why is 0.6 silly?

[Homestar]

Nor would I call it crap. It is chinese though.
It's not at the bottom of the pile though. That comes in at the ER70S-3 spec... out of the box, it looks like a rusty roll of old fencing wire randomly wound on the spool.

Yeah, have seen that come back in some of our hire machines believe it or not. I can get dealer price on Lincoln consumables so that's what I use.

[DoubleChevron]

0.6 and this is what I got. Should be as good as any by my book.

Autocraft LW1-6 - 0.6 / 0.8 / 0.9 / 1.0 / 1.2 / 1.6 mm - Cigweld - Victor Technologies Asia Pacific - South Pacific (http://www.cigweld.com.au/product/solid-mig-gmaw/autocraft-lw1-6/)

Why is 0.6 silly?

I use a bit of 0.6. My biggest issue is it can wrap around the wire feeder in my welder. That's not the wires fault. I simply need to upgrade to a welder with a wire feed that supports the wire better.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Aaron IIA]

On One side, you have high quality, european / US made wires with all the metalurgical certification to ensure that it's going to lay down the weld you want. Many times, a certifying engineer will specify a filler material (wire, rod etc) to meet a specification- usually the American Welding specification or the Australian/ NZ standard so that they can be assured of the quality of the material in the job.

So would the following be good, bad, or average?

AWS/ASME-SFA A5.18 ER70S-6

AS/NZS 14341-B G 49A 3U C S6, G 49A 3U M S6

Aaron

[Toxic_Avenger]

I don't understand your question. You've given a specification. The spec is what the spec is.

I guess an answer could be 'how good is the boilermaker' - can they produce a sound weld given the requirements of the joint to be made?

[Aaron IIA]

Is that specification near the middle or bottom of range of wire quality? It was less than half the price of the other more expensive wire. I was just curious as to if the wire was any good, seeing as you seemed to suggest that cheaper wires were of poor quality.

Aaron

[Toxic_Avenger]

You might be interested in this.
MIG Wire Selection (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/Pages/mig-wire-selection-detail.aspx)

AWS / AS/NZ standard is a metallurgical standard. It is poorly policed, and in some manufacturing conditions, its a test on a whole crucible of metal which can have markedly different metallurgy between batches poured from this ladle.

Don't get me wrong, there is good quality and poor*er* quality products out there, each has their own place. I just don't see the logic of someone who gets concerned about the price of a premium product when their needs do not require a premium product. Akin to a customer walking into a porsche gallery wanting to buy a used car for under 10K.

On my own personal experience, If someone walked into my workplace and wanted Mig wire, not only could I show them 15+ different kinds, styles and probably blow their mind with all the specs and their applications, but they'd also be guaranteed a good product at a fair price. Many other suppliers will just point to the stack and ask how many you want, and their obligation to assisting you stops when the money hits their till.

[Aaron IIA]

That article was quite useful. It shows that there is more to MIG wire than just wire on a drum. It also explains some of the problems that I have been experiencing.

Aaron

[cafe latte]

In Queensland you can buy your own bottles from A mans Toy Shop or any speed gas outlet. I still have a full bottle, but I will be getting a speed gas bottle or a Bunnings one if they arrive up here. I know I can get Speed Gas if they dont.
http://www.amanstoyshop.com.au/productdetail.aspx?id=73911
Chris

[Toxic_Avenger]

I know I can get Speed Gas if they dont.

Ahhh... they are still living in the good old days when you could sell mixed gases for $100 per cube.
What's the rent worth to you guys? $50 a cube? $75? $80? The 'rent' on these cylinders is IN the horrendously high gas charge per cubic meter, and the lump sum you slap on the table to get into the speed swap program. I'd love to see the fine print about the 'deposit'- I dare say it would be null and void when you try return a cylinder out of test... but conveniently speed gas have a broken link on the T&C's on their webpage.

[cafe latte]

Ahhh... they are still living in the good old days when you could sell mixed gases for $100 per cube.
What's the rent worth to you guys? $50 a cube? $75? $80? The 'rent' on these cylinders is IN the horrendously high gas charge per cubic meter, and the lump sum you slap on the table to get into the speed swap program. I'd love to see the fine print about the 'deposit'- I dare say it would be null and void when you try return a cylinder out of test... but conveniently speed gas have a broken link on the T&C's on their webpage.

Not sure I know what you are talking about.. A friend has bought his bottle and has had no issues. There is no rent, you buy the bottle and just pay for the gas, that is it.
Far better than I have been doing up to now.
Chris

[DoubleChevron]

I think BOC gasses must be trying to **** the rest of there customer base off to the point where no-one can be bothered with them. My brother rings me this morning... He's bought and old forklift and needs an LPG bottle to get it off the trailer and into his shed. He's rang BOC gasses and they shut at 11:30am Saturdays ( FFS: Why don't they try opening 10:00 -> 2:00pm Saturdays so there actuallly useful. There is no way you would bother with them when most welding gasses these days can be purchased through bunnings and total tools (open 7days a week till 10:00pm at night).

Anyway, I load the 3 kids into the car ... drive all the way upto BOC gasses "Can I grab a forklift bottle mate"..... He looks up my account, acts kinda weird ... looks at me again ... then wanders out the door of the store... "which one is your car" .... "The old range rover" .... "I can't let you have a bottle".

for crying out bloody loud ... here we bloody go. I'd just turn a BBQ bottle upside down so we have liquid and not deal with this bloody useless company if I had my way ... but I don't have the quick release fitting on the forklift ..... "WHY".... "Well you can't carry LPG in the back of a car, you need a ute" ....... me: "Why the hell would I use a ute ... it would be an unrestrained load in the back" .... "It's not safe to carry an LPG bottle in your car" ...... "Well **** me, what about the two bottles already in there .... with the open gas taps the car is running from" .......................... Him: "no I can't do it" .... ME: "What if I want BBQ gas ... How the **** do people now get a BBQ bottle from you" ... Him: "They can carry 1 9kg bottle in there car, not two" .... Me: "what is the difference between 9kg or 18kg of LPG in the car ... Are you bottles that ****house you think they'll leak ?".... Him: " I just can't let you have it" ..... Me: "can I still take all the other gasses in my car" .. Him: "Yes" .... Me: "So your telling me I can take orderless, tasteless gasses that does not support life in a car .. where you would never know they are leaking, but gas that I would know if even the tiniest bit escaped instantly isn't Ok" ... Him: "Er, yes"..... Me: " :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: What if I get a trailer and let it bounce around unrestrained in the trailer" ... Him: "Yes that's fine"....

So I drive all the god damn way back home, get the trailer out of the paddock .... drive all the god damn way back there... Just getting there by now 11:25pm ( 5minutes before close). The 3 young kids in the back are far from impressed with being stuck in the car all this time. Go and get the bottle... Tell them, I'm going to buy my own and never deal with this useless bloody company ever again ( they are $350'ish on ebay with a connector that allows you to fill them at 50cents a litre at your local petrol station) walk past the bloody trailer (where it would be incredibly difficult to safely tie down) put it in the back of the range rover and tow the empty bloody trailer back home.

How the hell is BOC gases still in business when they go out of there way to **** the customer base off so much ?

seeya,
Shane L.

[scarry]

Same here,one of the reasons I have moved on.......

In fact the refrigeration wholesalers now have oxy and acet,in D size.

Haven't really looked closely,but they did say oxy is $25 a bottle,which is very competitive.

What they are also looking at is bundling all bottles together as one package,that is oxy,acet,nitrogen,and refrigerant,for account holders.

We moved to the Bunnings system a couple of years ago,and no real complaints.

I think BOC have had the market for too long for themselves,and have charged what they like,and provided a **** service as well.They were never competative with refrigerants.

I think their bread and butter are the big customers such as Hospitals.In this market they probably have no opposition.

Even their agents and outlets don't like them.

[rick130]

Same here,one of the reasons I have moved on.......

In fact the refrigeration wholesalers now have oxy and acet,in D size.

Haven't really looked closely,but they did say oxy is $25 a bottle,which is very competitive.

What they are also looking at is bundling all bottles together as one package,that is oxy,acet,nitrogen,and refrigerant,for account holders.

We moved to the Bunnings system a couple of years ago,and no real complaints.

I think BOC have had the market for too long for themselves,and have charged what they like,and provided a **** service as well.They were never competative with refrigerants.

I think their bread and butter are the big customers such as Hospitals.In this market they probably have no opposition.

Even their agents and outlets don't like them.

Not trying to bash BOC.... :D

I did the quote round robin with gas suppliers recently and emailed the results to the GM and account managers.
It made interesting reading.

Anyway, I asked the question at BOC regarding specs for Nitrogen.

No one seemed to know so we discovered the difference between the two specs, industrial (032) and high purity (034) could be impacting some of our jobs.

A number of us had been sourcing the nitro from the local independent refrig wholesaler as it was high purity from A-Gas.
Their price was the same as BOC's industrial spec, which had higher levels of oxygen and more importantly for us, moisture.
One of our account managers, who is very technically switched on was surprised at the difference in specs as they'd just been grabbing 'nitro' from BOC, which was the industrial spec.
At least everyone here has been taught to use a vacstat and all the boys, including the apprentices posses them, so it's never been an issue.

Having said that BOC's pricing to us on oxy/aceylene and consumables and even things like regs is very competitive, we definitely don't pay retail, so they can do it if they want to.

As an aside, the local independent wholesaler absolutely flogs the big national wholesalers on refrigerant pricing, at times to the tune of 25% better.
I needed R407c for a small (80kw) chiller the other day and thought I'd give the big guys a shot again as they've been angling for our gas purchases and was shocked at the difference in refrigerant pricing, they were no where near what we normally pay.

[101 Ron]

I think BOC gasses must be trying to **** the rest of there customer base off to the point where no-one can be bothered with them. My brother rings me this morning... He's bought and old forklift and needs an LPG bottle to get it off the trailer and into his shed. He's rang BOC gasses and they shut at 11:30am Saturdays ( FFS: Why don't they try opening 10:00 -> 2:00pm Saturdays so there actuallly useful. There is no way you would bother with them when most welding gasses these days can be purchased through bunnings and total tools (open 7days a week till 10:00pm at night).

Anyway, I load the 3 kids into the car ... drive all the way upto BOC gasses "Can I grab a forklift bottle mate"..... He looks up my account, acts kinda weird ... looks at me again ... then wanders out the door of the store... "which one is your car" .... "The old range rover" .... "I can't let you have a bottle".

for crying out bloody loud ... here we bloody go. I'd just turn a BBQ bottle upside down so we have liquid and not deal with this bloody useless company if I had my way ... but I don't have the quick release fitting on the forklift ..... "WHY".... "Well you can't carry LPG in the back of a car, you need a ute" ....... me: "Why the hell would I use a ute ... it would be an unrestrained load in the back" .... "It's not safe to carry an LPG bottle in your car" ...... "Well **** me, what about the two bottles already in there .... with the open gas taps the car is running from" .......................... Him: "no I can't do it" .... ME: "What if I want BBQ gas ... How the **** do people now get a BBQ bottle from you" ... Him: "They can carry 1 9kg bottle in there car, not two" .... Me: "what is the difference between 9kg or 18kg of LPG in the car ... Are you bottles that ****house you think they'll leak ?".... Him: " I just can't let you have it" ..... Me: "can I still take all the other gasses in my car" .. Him: "Yes" .... Me: "So your telling me I can take orderless, tasteless gasses that does not support life in a car .. where you would never know they are leaking, but gas that I would know if even the tiniest bit escaped instantly isn't Ok" ... Him: "Er, yes"..... Me: " :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: What if I get a trailer and let it bounce around unrestrained in the trailer" ... Him: "Yes that's fine"....

So I drive all the god damn way back home, get the trailer out of the paddock .... drive all the god damn way back there... Just getting there by now 11:25pm ( 5minutes before close). The 3 young kids in the back are far from impressed with being stuck in the car all this time. Go and get the bottle... Tell them, I'm going to buy my own and never deal with this useless bloody company ever again ( they are $350'ish on ebay with a connector that allows you to fill them at 50cents a litre at your local petrol station) walk past the bloody trailer (where it would be incredibly difficult to safely tie down) put it in the back of the range rover and tow the empty bloody trailer back home.

How the hell is BOC gases still in business when they go out of there way to **** the customer base off so much ?

seeya,
Shane L.

Personally I very much hate BOC........infact detest the company.
But the law in NSW set by the government states nothing bigger than a 9kg bottle can be carried in the boot of a car, even though the 18 KG bottle has more safety features including a self cut off cupoling and the 9 kg bottle has a tap which can viberate open and turn the car into a bomb.
BOC can be sued if something happens.
It is illegal to fill a forklift bottle at a service station unless the bottle is mounted on a forklift driven into the service station.(10 thousand dollar fine for the retailer if caught doing so)
It is illegal to drive a forklift with full time rego on public roads with the tynes fitted unless the tynes are removed from the forklift.
The govt is happy to take your money for full time rego of your forklift
and is then happy as the RMS to book you for doing so.

The old days you could fill forklift bottles in the back of your Ute ect.
The problem was at places like the Sydney fruit markets they would throw 10 bottles in the back of a Ute and go down to the local servo and fill them while smoking a fag and some times blow themselves up.
The gas companies naturally pushed for non filling of your own bottles at public services stations so they could get more controll of the market too.
The answer to your problem of getting a forklift bottle and carrying it in your car would have been to park your car next door out of sight and walk in.
Take the bottle and walk out of the gas suppliers yard and place it in the car yourself and in that way the gas company knows nothing and is not responsible, but you would be if some thing goes wrong.
Another reason for not carrying forklift bottles in motor cars and utes for that matter......??how many people in the world secure them correctly incase of an accident.
Company greed, lazy, dumb people and a leeching,fault finding blaming legal system is a problem to our evey day lives.

[weeds]

I think BOC gasses must be trying to **** the rest of there customer base off to the point where no-one can be bothered with them. My brother rings me this morning... He's bought and old forklift and needs an LPG bottle to get it off the trailer and into his shed. He's rang BOC gasses and they shut at 11:30am Saturdays ( FFS: Why don't they try opening 10:00 -> 2:00pm Saturdays so there actuallly useful. There is no way you would bother with them when most welding gasses these days can be purchased through bunnings and total tools (open 7days a week till 10:00pm at night).



Anyway, I load the 3 kids into the car ... drive all the way upto BOC gasses "Can I grab a forklift bottle mate"..... He looks up my account, acts kinda weird ... looks at me again ... then wanders out the door of the store... "which one is your car" .... "The old range rover" .... "I can't let you have a bottle".



for crying out bloody loud ... here we bloody go. I'd just turn a BBQ bottle upside down so we have liquid and not deal with this bloody useless company if I had my way ... but I don't have the quick release fitting on the forklift ..... "WHY".... "Well you can't carry LPG in the back of a car, you need a ute" ....... me: "Why the hell would I use a ute ... it would be an unrestrained load in the back" .... "It's not safe to carry an LPG bottle in your car" ...... "Well **** me, what about the two bottles already in there .... with the open gas taps the car is running from" .......................... Him: "no I can't do it" .... ME: "What if I want BBQ gas ... How the **** do people now get a BBQ bottle from you" ... Him: "They can carry 1 9kg bottle in there car, not two" .... Me: "what is the difference between 9kg or 18kg of LPG in the car ... Are you bottles that ****house you think they'll leak ?".... Him: " I just can't let you have it" ..... Me: "can I still take all the other gasses in my car" .. Him: "Yes" .... Me: "So your telling me I can take orderless, tasteless gasses that does not support life in a car .. where you would never know they are leaking, but gas that I would know if even the tiniest bit escaped instantly isn't Ok" ... Him: "Er, yes"..... Me: " :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: What if I get a trailer and let it bounce around unrestrained in the trailer" ... Him: "Yes that's fine"....



So I drive all the god damn way back home, get the trailer out of the paddock .... drive all the god damn way back there... Just getting there by now 11:25pm ( 5minutes before close). The 3 young kids in the back are far from impressed with being stuck in the car all this time. Go and get the bottle... Tell them, I'm going to buy my own and never deal with this useless bloody company ever again ( they are $350'ish on ebay with a connector that allows you to fill them at 50cents a litre at your local petrol station) walk past the bloody trailer (where it would be incredibly difficult to safely tie down) put it in the back of the range rover and tow the empty bloody trailer back home.



How the hell is BOC gases still in business when they go out of there way to **** the customer base off so much ?



seeya,

Shane L.



Umm, so the way I read it
- lack of planning by your brother
- not happy with a company's opening hours, doesn't suit your situation, brothers planning again
- not happy to follow rules of the company that you have an account with
- break said the rules and load cylinder into car instead of trailer
- than state you are going to fill cylinders illegally............

Yep 100% BOC's problem.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Umm, so the way I read it
- lack of planning by your brother
- not happy with a company's opening hours, doesn't suit your situation, brothers planning again
- not happy to follow rules of the company that you have an account with
- break said the rules and load cylinder into car instead of trailer
- than state you are going to fill cylinders illegally............

Yep 100% BOC's problem.

That's how I read it.
There are DG transportation regulations for a reason.
As a company they are not dealing with harmless products. It would be a completely different tune he'd be singing if he were involved in an accident, and the cylinder ruptured, exploded, or crushed one of his children. I think Shane's contempt of the law and safety advice from the sales clerk is laughable and downright irresponsible.

For show and tell, I have a video.
Here is an aftermath of a van after an oxy / acetylene explosion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSbohasKM_Q

[DoubleChevron]

Umm, so the way I read it
- lack of planning by your brother
- not happy with a company's opening hours, doesn't suit your situation, brothers planning again
- not happy to follow rules of the company that you have an account with
- break said the rules and load cylinder into car instead of trailer
- than state you are going to fill cylinders illegally............

Yep 100% BOC's problem.

Yes, I'm glad you agree. The a ****house, bloody hopeless company to deal with. I'll certainly never bother again.

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

That's how I read it.
There are DG transportation regulations for a reason.
As a company they are not dealing with harmless products. It would be a completely different tune he'd be singing if he were involved in an accident, and the cylinder ruptured, exploded, or crushed one of his children. I think Shane's contempt of the law and safety advice from the sales clerk is laughable and downright irresponsible.

For show and tell, I have a video.
Here is an aftermath of a van after an oxy / acetylene explosion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSbohasKM_Q

I fail to see how this has anything to do with carrying an lpg gas bottle home ..... There has been two much bigger gas bottles sitting in the back of the car for the last 30years... bloody deadly right :eek:

I know I'm just crazy and insane. Just last week alone I saw 20 people blow up from carrying a bbq bottle in there car ... Crazy I tell you!! Actually, a couple of weeks back I watched someone fill up 3 lpg bottles in his boot at a servo while I was filling up with gas. I wondered over to have a look. It's 100% safe from what I could tell. His bottles must have been forklift bottles. They were all fitted with proper lockoff valves and had the filler plugs attached to the top of the bottles.

I've filled thousands of gas bottles. Never heard of anyone smoking and "blowing themselves up" filling bottles in the back of there car. Were not talking cracking open the filler plug and filling the bottles to the top ( like I would without a seconds hesitation from any bottle if I needed too, if it doesn't have a liquid pickup, just turn the bottle upside down). These bottles people are filling have have the correct fittings for safe filling fitted just like a car.

I see them as dangerous from an unrestrained cylinder point of view. Gas bottles leakign an blowing up is almost unheard of .... ever. DUmbest thing you could ever do is have an LPG cylinder bouncing around unrestrained in the back of a ute or trailer.

I still don't get why BOC think 9kg of gas in your car is perfectly safe ... but 18 isn't .... Guess what sort of bang 9kgs would open if you opened the gas tap inside a car :eek: The explosion would be enormous ....

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

That's how I read it.
There are DG transportation regulations for a reason.
As a company they are not dealing with harmless products. It would be a completely different tune he'd be singing if he were involved in an accident, and the cylinder ruptured, exploded, or crushed one of his children. I think Shane's contempt of the law and safety advice from the sales clerk is laughable and downright irresponsible.

For show and tell, I have a video.
Here is an aftermath of a van after an oxy / acetylene explosion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSbohasKM_Q

Yes I know ... countless people that have died carrying a bbq bottle home in the last 6months alone... It is just horrific. We need to have a investigation into this highly dangerous, downright suicidal practice. Won't someone think of the childdren :o :o :o

[scarry]

Not trying to bash BOC.... :D

I did the quote round robin with gas suppliers recently and emailed the results to the GM and account managers.
It made interesting reading.

Anyway, I asked the question at BOC regarding specs for Nitrogen.

No one seemed to know so we discovered the difference between the two specs, industrial (032) and high purity (034) could be impacting some of our jobs.

A number of us had been sourcing the nitro from the local independent refrig wholesaler as it was high purity from A-Gas.
Their price was the same as BOC's industrial spec, which had higher levels of oxygen and more importantly for us, moisture.
One of our account managers, who is very technically switched on was surprised at the difference in specs as they'd just been grabbing 'nitro' from BOC, which was the industrial spec.
At least everyone here has been taught to use a vacstat and all the boys, including the apprentices posses them, so it's never been an issue.

Having said that BOC's pricing to us on oxy/aceylene and consumables and even things like regs is very competitive, we definitely don't pay retail, so they can do it if they want to.

As an aside, the local independent wholesaler absolutely flogs the big national wholesalers on refrigerant pricing, at times to the tune of 25% better.
I needed R407c for a small (80kw) chiller the other day and thought I'd give the big guys a shot again as they've been angling for our gas purchases and was shocked at the difference in refrigerant pricing, they were no where near what we normally pay.

Yep,exactly,in an earlier life I spent many years commissioning,working for one of the largest mech services companies in the country.

Particularly on Govt jobs,we had to get the vacuums to hold overnight,often on very large DX systems.And had their inspectors looking over our shoulders.If we used high purity nitro,very little issues.Any other nitro,lots of issues.Most of the pipe work was done by Mech plumbers,so they didn't really care what type it was.

At the moment,From our normal wholesalers,I am pleasantly surprised at the prices we are getting any gear for,it seems to be the lowest it has ever been.

None of the Indies can get anywhere near it.The old days of getting 40% off retail are long gone,try 60 to 70% at least.

In fact I don't know how they can keep going at these rates.

I am wondering if it will keep up once the weather warms up?;)

I doubt it

[101 Ron]

I have been dealing with forklifts bottles and automotive LPG for many , many years.
Most of the general public don't restrain gas bottles correctly when in the back of trailer Ute ect.

In the case of a accident they go flying.........human nature.
Filling illegally in the back of a Ute has many problems.
Just the fitting and then release of the filler coupling will leak enough gas in the enclosed space of the Ute to be at the correct mixture to ignite.
The filler coupling on the outside of a car LPG conversion is not a problem due to better ventilation and open conditions.
Some times it is possible for gas bottle valve to leak in the enclosed space of a back of a Ute or boot of a car.
Automative LPG conversions are fitted to very high standards with regards to mounting of the bottle to the vehicle incase of accident.
All internal automotive gas bottle fittings to vehicle have a sub compartment and all pipes and valving which matters including wiring is vented to the outside of the vehicle.
If the bottle leaks , it will not be to the inside of the vehicle.
Automotive fittings of LPG are to a far higher standard than a loose bottle in a vehicle.
Location of the excessive pressure valve is a problem with loose bottles.
On a automotive fitting it is vented to the sub tank and to the outside of the vehicle.
Loose bottles in the back of a Ute can be pointing any which way and bottles have a certain orientation in which they should be filled.
Filling from the LPG bowser will over fill a forklift, house hold 100 kg bottle ect.
When the bottles filled in the back of the Ute hidden out of sight with the tarp over them, with little ventilation on a hot day with the LPG getting warmer , over filled by the bowser,bottles rolled the wrong way around, so the excess pressure valves leak or pop open and the back of the Ute fills with the correct mixture to ignite..
Most utes have stop light connection on the back corners and the gas follows the low ground( heavier than air)
With the bottles pointing the wrong way fighting a gas fire would be difficult as the excess pressure wouldn't be venting up wards and away from fire fighters.
How many people know or would want to know a forklift bottle even when fitted to a forklift has a top and a bottom for safety and running purposes and is marked so.
100 KG household bottles should be up right, just like the way they carry them on the household delivery truck, filling them horizontally in the back of a Ute has issues.
It goes on and on...........there is a reason for most things.

[DoubleChevron]

I have been dealing with forklifts bottles and automotive LPG for many , many years.
Most of the general public don't restrain gas bottles correctly when in the back of trailer Ute ect.

In the case of a accident they go flying.........human nature.
Filling illegally in the back of a Ute has many problems.
Just the fitting and then release of the filler coupling will leak enough gas in the enclosed space of the Ute to be at the correct mixture to ignite.
The filler coupling on the outside of a car LPG conversion is not a problem due to better ventilation and open conditions.
Some times it is possible for gas bottle valve to leak in the enclosed space of a back of a Ute or boot of a car.
Automative LPG conversions are fitted to very high standards with regards to mounting of the bottle to the vehicle incase of accident.
All internal automotive gas bottle fittings to vehicle have a sub compartment and all pipes and valving which matters including wiring is vented to the outside of the vehicle.
If the bottle leaks , it will not be to the inside of the vehicle.
Automotive fittings of LPG are to a far higher standard than a loose bottle in a vehicle.
Location of the excessive pressure valve is a problem with loose bottles.
On a automotive fitting it is vented to the sub tank and to the outside of the vehicle.
Loose bottles in the back of a Ute can be pointing any which way and bottles have a certain orientation in which they should be filled.
Filling from the LPG bowser will over fill a forklift, house hold 100 kg bottle ect.
When the bottles filled in the back of the Ute hidden out of sight with the tarp over them, with little ventilation on a hot day with the LPG getting warmer , over filled by the bowser,bottles rolled the wrong way around, so the excess pressure valves leak or pop open and the back of the Ute fills with the correct mixture to ignite..
Most utes have stop light connection on the back corners and the gas follows the low ground( heavier than air)
With the bottles pointing the wrong way fighting a gas fire would be difficult as the excess pressure wouldn't be venting up wards and away from fire fighters.
How many people know or would want to know a forklift bottle even when fitted to a forklift has a top and a bottom for safety and running purposes and is marked so.
100 KB household bottles should be up right, just like the way they carry them on the household delivery truck, filling them horizontally in the back of a Ute has issues.
It goes on and on...........there is a reason for most things.

Oh, I'd never fill a bottle in a boot or ute ... I've filled many bottles, but they have always been out in the open.... I don't like LPG ... and don't mess with it it unless there is no choice.

I still think the most dangerous thing is the restraining of loose bottles being carried... Best place is the boot of a car IMO. They are contained and can't escape in an accident. You will never not instantly smell any sort of leak. I would NEVER store any sort of lpg cylinder in a car or enclosed space though. They live outside where gas can't accumulate if there is a leak ( really a 1 in a million chance really).

I've never seen even a 100% full gas bottle vent. eg: bbq bottle stored in the direct sun. I guess it's possible though.

Must admit though.
NEW 15kg Aluminium LPG Forklift Cylinder Fully Valved CAN BE Filled AT Station | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-15Kg-Aluminium-LPG-Forklift-Cylinder-Fully-Valved-CAN-BE-FILLED-AT-STATION-/272184392986?hash=item3f5f743d1a%3Ag%3ALUQAAOSwbqp TzO-U)

I'd fill something like this in the back of the range rover without a seconds hesitation. drop the rear tailgate and slide the top of the bottle out so any gas released when you uncouple it is "outside". You'd have to make sure you only filled it to 80% though.

I rekcon owning one of these bottles would be handy. You could fill you bbq bottles from it at 50 cents a litre at home. You see it will be a "liquid out" valve on it. So you don't need to up-end it to fill your bbq bottles.

seeya
ShaneL.

[101 Ron]

Carrying a 9 kg bottle in the back or boot of your car is more dangerous than a 15/18 kg forklift bottle as the forklift bottle has more safety features.
Be thankful you are still allowed to carry a 9 kg bottle.
If great caution is used in carrying a 9 kg bottle and securing it and especially ensuring the off valve is tight and the gas is not allowed to get hot in the boot , things are OK.
How many people really care, get the 9 kg bottle freshly filled to maximum pressure, throw it loose in the back of the car on its side rolling around unsecured.
Park the car in the drive out in the sun for a few hours and decide they want to get the barbe going and go to the car, get the bottle out which now has time to vent via excess pressure valve and fill the inside or boot of the car with invisible LPG when the boot light or interior light contact switches spark and set the whole thing off.
It happens regularly.
Naturally the victims want compensation or the laws changed.

[101 Ron]

To fill a forklift bottle or any other house hold bottle at a servo must be done illegally hidden under cover, for if the servos cameras catch you they will turn off the LPG straight away........remember....
10 thousand dollar fine for the servo.
Staff are trained to lookout and to do this.
The EBay ad is misleading as it is only legal to fill a forklift bottle only when mounted onto a forklift.
It is illegal to fill it in a servo station loose.(service station operators will shut down the LPG bowser if caught)

It is illegal to drive a forklift on public roads to a service station in NSW rego or not unless the tynes are removed.

[DoubleChevron]

To fill a forklift bottle or any other house hold bottle at a servo must be done illegally hidden under cover, for if the servos cameras catch you they will turn off the LPG straight away........remember....
10 thousand dollar fine for the servo.
Staff are trained to lookout and to do this.
The EBay ad is misleading as it is only illegal to fill a forklift bottle only when mounted onto a forklift.
It is illegal to fill it in a servo station loose.(service station operators will shut down the LPG bowser if caught)

It is illegal to drive a forklift on public roads to a service station in NSW rego or not unless the tynes are removed.

Fun right :) I reckon there doing the right thing with the laws. Imagine if everyone started filling lpg bottles in there boot as it wasn't "illegal".... :eek: :eek: :eek:

I've had morons come over next to me smoking when I'm filling 9kg bbq bottles int he past (ie: the bleeder open and filling them to the top). I'm "slightly" blunt with them

[101 Ron]

I have forklift bottles at work which I used to fill from a 500kg bottle by decantering and using the standard ullage valve to determine when full .
If filled on a cold day and then the next day is very hot, the pressure relief valves sometimes opened with enough force to throw the bottle on there sides.
To fill a forklift bottle it should be done by weight exactly how it is done by the gas companies by either pressure pumping or decantering.
When decantering bottles now at work I use weight scales.
I notice the barbeques Galore store just down the road is now using this system by weight from a set up from a half shipping container and pressure pump.

[DoubleChevron]

I have forklift bottles at work which I used to fill from a 500kg bottle by decantering and using the standard ullage valve to determine when full .
If filled on a cold day and then the next day is very hot, the pressure relief valves sometimes opened with enough force to throw the bottle on there sides.
To fill a forklift bottle it should be done by weight exactly how it is done by the gas companies by either pressure pumping or decantering.
When decantering bottles now at work I use weight scales.
I notice the barbeques Galore store just down the road is now using this system by weight from a set up from a half shipping container and pressure pump.

We used to just fill them from a big filler bottle. You fill them until the liquid squirts out the breather hole. Sure was 'not' fun wihen the big bottle started getting low... to fill a 9kg would take forever :(

seeya,
Shane L.

[d2dave]

We used to just fill them from a big filler bottle. You fill them until the liquid squirts out the breather hole. Sure was 'not' fun wihen the big bottle started getting low... to fill a 9kg would take forever :(

seeya,
Shane L.

I still do.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Decanting into a 9kg, 15kg, 18kg, 45kg or 230kg is nothing uncommon.
Conversation has conveniently diverted away from the reasons why transporting DG such as LPG in the back of an enclosed passenger vehicle is such a bad idea, and towards something that is completely commonplace.

In any case, I trust people who don't get knocked back due to inappropriate transport means (either thru lack of knowledge by the retailer or other devious means) reconsider their choices for their own safety.

It's not the gas company, it the legal requirement.
Keep in mind any police officer, RTA inspector, or workcover (or equivalent) officer, can fine motorists for such breaches. So other than the inconvenience that was a result of a lack of knowledge, I don't see a problem.

[DoubleChevron]

Decanting into a 9kg, 15kg, 18kg, 45kg or 230kg is nothing uncommon.
Conversation has conveniently diverted away from the reasons why transporting DG such as LPG in the back of an enclosed passenger vehicle is such a bad idea, and towards something that is completely commonplace.

In any case, I trust people who don't get knocked back due to inappropriate transport means (either thru lack of knowledge by the retailer or other devious means) reconsider their choices for their own safety.

It's not the gas company, it the legal requirement.
Keep in mind any police officer, RTA inspector, or workcover (or equivalent) officer, can fine motorists for such breaches. So other than the inconvenience that was a result of a lack of knowledge, I don't see a problem.

Yes I know ... deadly right ?? These stupid people that don't know these new rules BOC have made. Just think of the lives that will be saved.... I know of at least, um, zero people that have been hurt or killed in my lifetime from transporting an LPG bottle in there car. DEADLY I tell you :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: (infact so deadly, I have two cars here with bottles mounted in them .... Damn, how am I still alive :wasntme: ),

[Homestar]

Decanting into a 9kg, 15kg, 18kg, 45kg or 230kg is nothing uncommon.
Conversation has conveniently diverted away from the reasons why transporting DG such as LPG in the back of an enclosed passenger vehicle is such a bad idea, and towards something that is completely commonplace.

In any case, I trust people who don't get knocked back due to inappropriate transport means (either thru lack of knowledge by the retailer or other devious means) reconsider their choices for their own safety.

It's not the gas company, it the legal requirement.
Keep in mind any police officer, RTA inspector, or workcover (or equivalent) officer, can fine motorists for such breaches. So other than the inconvenience that was a result of a lack of knowledge, I don't see a problem.

You can legally carry a 9kg bottle in your car. I believe the rule says you should 'avoid' doing this, not that you can't do it.

[DoubleChevron]

Well I've been searching... and i can't find any laws that say I can't carry a gas cylinder in my car (short of "large" cylinders ... eg: 500kg or more)....

Must be super important these imaginary laws. :wasntme:

[Toxic_Avenger]

Yes Gav, but our peugeot loving friend here was trying to illegally transport 15kg cyl of LPG. But somehow it's the gas companies fault. :confused:
He is also mistaking a certified LPG vehicle installation (which includes a pressure vessel) with an industrial gas cylinder - an LPG forklift cylinder. These are two completely different things.

Hopefully he will cease badmouthing his supplier for looking out for his safety, the law, and his pocket from the potential fines if he was caught, and acknowledge that what he was trying to do was the reason why he was not supplied, NOT because they have it in for him as a person, or dislike the colour of his shirt, or cut of his jib

[DoubleChevron]

Yes Gav, but our peugeot loving friend here was trying to illegally transport 15kg cyl of LPG. But somehow it's the gas companies fault. :confused:
He is also mistaking a certified LPG vehicle installation (which includes a pressure vessel) with an industrial gas cylinder - an LPG forklift cylinder. These are two completely different things.

Hopefully he will cease badmouthing his supplier for looking out for his safety, the law, and his pocket from the potential fines if he was caught, and acknowledge that what he was trying to do was the reason why he was not supplied, NOT because they have it in for him as a person, or dislike the colour of his shirt, or cut of his jib

Where is this law you keep speaking of ... I can't find it... I sure don't like peugeots either :confused: About all they did was completely stuff every Citroen ever made from the day they took over :p

[weeds]

There is this...not sure if it's the law https://www.qld.gov.au/emergency/safety/gas/cylinder-transport.html

Just because you don't know anybody that has been killed.....doesn't mean it doesn't happen

Full or over filled gas cylinders (nearly everybody I see decanting/filling gas cylinder does it incorrectly) do vent when there is a temperate increase

[weeds]

http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=716

[DoubleChevron]

There is this...not sure if it's the law https://www.qld.gov.au/emergency/safety/gas/cylinder-transport.html

Just because you don't know anybody that has been killed.....doesn't mean it doesn't happen

Full or over filled gas cylinders (nearly everybody I see decanting/filling gas cylinder does it incorrectly) do vent when there is a temperate increase

I found that ........ I live in victoria though and qld rules have no effect here :) I don't know how 9kg is "safe" and 14 is "dangerous" though. a 9kg bottle of gas blowing up would be an enormous explosion that would take out half the street.

If there worried, they should just say anywhere a bottle is carried should be vented downward.. see how many people just drill a hole in there floor to get aorund this :wasntme: The modern utes with a canopy are far better sealed up than the boot of any car I own .... Yet they are "legal" .... like most laws, there just ridiculous, stupid and not thought out.

It also appears to be just a "suggestion".ll where is the laws/regulations that state any of this.

[DoubleChevron]

LPG Cylinder Safety Check List - Fire and Rescue NSW (http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=716)

looks like a suggestion, not a law to me. Must be why it's so "well known",.

[weeds]

I give up.......you win

[DoubleChevron]

I give up.......you win

I don't want to "win" ... I just don't understand any of this. It's simply ridiculous. Not allowing people to fill gas bottles from LPG pumps ... That is sensible. requiring anything to be vented downward is sensible. requiring any cylinder to be contained is sensible.

Saying a cylinder must be carried in a ute ... if it is greater than 9kg is just stupid. try tying down a cylinder in the back of a ute and see how you go... it'll crashing around back there like crazy... launching itself from side to side around corners, end to end when you accelerate and brake. In the boot of a car, it's contained. can barely move, especially if you have it packed in with other stuff. plenty of venting in most old cars due to the rust hole under the spare wheel too :D :wasntme:

[Toxic_Avenger]

Here's the law - Dangerous Goods (Road and Rail Transport) Act 2008:
NSW Legislation (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/2008/95/full)

Industry body - ANZIGA have transport guidelines to compement the act
http://anziga.org/public/editor_images/Publication/142-001_B6_Safety_ADvice_Transporting_Gas_Cylinders_or _Cryogenic_Liquid_Receptacles_in_vehicles.pdf

http://anziga.org/public/editor_images/Publication/142-007%2007%20Guideline%201%20Transporting%20Gas%20Cy linders%20%20other%20Products%20%28final%29.pdf



But yeah Shane, you win.

Please, for the sake of us all, carry ALL the LPG you want in your vehicle for as long as you want. Since you know of NO ONE who has ever died due to a LPG explosion in a vehicle, then surely it must be such a insignificant risk that is not worth consider mitigating actions?

If you are such a daredevil that common sense, industry guidelines / regulations and the advice of the professionals selling the product are not to be heeded, then I guess you are a smarter bloke than us all, and we should not even challenge your wishes.

[DoubleChevron]

Please, for the sake of us all, carry ALL the LPG you want in your vehicle for as long as you want. Since you know of NO ONE who has ever died due to a LPG explosion in a vehicle, then surely it must be such a insignificant risk that is not worth consider mitigating actions?

If you are such a daredevil that common sense, industry guidelines / regulations and the advice of the professionals selling the product are not to be heeded, then I guess you are a smarter bloke than us all, and we should not even challenge your wishes.

Thanks for the links.

yes I sure will do whatever I feel is the safest ( a bottle boucning around in a trailer sure is NOT this). I can guarantee it without doubt.

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

Here's the law - Dangerous Goods (Road and Rail Transport) Act 2008:
NSW Legislation (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/2008/95/full)

Industry body - ANZIGA have transport guidelines to compement the act
http://anziga.org/public/editor_images/Publication/142-001_B6_Safety_ADvice_Transporting_Gas_Cylinders_or _Cryogenic_Liquid_Receptacles_in_vehicles.pdf

http://anziga.org/public/editor_images/Publication/142-007%2007%20Guideline%201%20Transporting%20Gas%20Cy linders%20%20other%20Products%20%28final%29.pdf



But yeah Shane, you win.

Please, for the sake of us all, carry ALL the LPG you want in your vehicle for as long as you want. Since you know of NO ONE who has ever died due to a LPG explosion in a vehicle, then surely it must be such a insignificant risk that is not worth consider mitigating actions?

If you are such a daredevil that common sense, industry guidelines / regulations and the advice of the professionals selling the product are not to be heeded, then I guess you are a smarter bloke than us all, and we should not even challenge your wishes.

Did you read any of them .... There only valid where your are carrying 250litres or more of gas.......................

[DoubleChevron]

Yeah thought so ...

Teenage boy in critical condition after gas bottle explodes in a car boot (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/teenage-boy-in-critical-condition-after-gas-bottle-explodes-in-a-car-boot-20160612-gphibt.html)

9kg is a hell of a bang. How is it possible that no-one smelt the LPG leaking (obviously the gas tap wasn't fully shut).

Why isnt the universal law just ... "anything that carries LPG must be vented downward". For example I've seen a couple of caravans recently with two 9kg bottles in the front boot.......... and no vents or drains below them ( can you say BANG ! loud enough ? ).

Interestingly my parents new bailey caravan has the "weight over the axle" caper, so the lpg bottles stored in the middle of the caravan. There is quite a complex drain to vent any leaking gas out. It almost looks like a big sink drain being guided down to the ground.

seeya,
Shane L.

[101 Ron]

Bowser filling a forklift bottle is not straight forward as you think.
Bowser filling works on a pressure pump and pressure sensing as a last resort to shut of the gas.
Bowser filling of forklift or any other type of non Automotive bottle/tanks over fills them.
The reason is Automotive bottles/tank have a AFL and is the reason why you don't need to open a ullage valve when filling them and in a automotive bottle it is the AFL which trips the bowser to cut out at the correct level in the automotive tank.
No automotive tanks in 25 years or more years are fitted with a ullage valve.
By the time bowser cuts out on a forklift bottle it is over full or at a pressure just under the opening of the relief valve.
The other method would be to open the ullage valve to ensure correct filling level, but means dumping liquid gas at the servo.....and the bowser will be shut down if caught filling a forklift or non automotive bottle /tank.
Weight scales method at the servo wouldnt be to easy either.
Not all forklift bottles will fill from a service station bowser as the bowser Acme coupling will not clear the rim of a forklift bottle even though the correct type of Acme filler coupling is fitted to the forklift or household bottle.
A clearance adaptor is used..............very hard to buy or find now as most people just go out and buy exchange forklift bottles already filled correctly delivered to your door.
Laws are made for a reason.

[DoubleChevron]

Bowser filling a forklift bottle is not straight forward as you think.
Bowser filling works on a pressure pump and pressure sensing as a last resort to shut of the gas.
Bowser filling of forklift or any other type of non Automotive bottle/tanks over fills them.
The reason is Automotive bottles/tank have a AFL and is the reason why you don't need to open a ullage valve when filling them and in a automotive bottle it is the AFL which trips the bowser to cut out at the correct level in the automotive tank.
No automotive tanks in 25 years or more years are fitted with a ullage valve.
By the time bowser cuts out on a forklift bottle it is over full or at a pressure just under the opening of the relief valve.
The other method would be to open the ullage valve to ensure correct filling level, but means dumping liquid gas at the servo.....and the bowser will be shut down if caught filling a forklift or non automotive bottle /tank.
Weight scales method at the servo wouldnt be to easy either.
Not all forklift bottles will fill from a service station bowser as the bowser Acme coupling will not clear the rim of a forklift bottle even though the correct type of Acme filler coupling is fitted to the forklift or household bottle.
A clearance adaptor is used..............very hard to buy or find now as most people just go out and buy exchange forklift bottles already filled correctly delivered to your door.
Laws are made for a reason.

Oh, if I was ever going to fill something like one of those bottles. I'd just fill it by litres to about 3/4's of the capacity. That way you know you should be well within the safe fill range. ie: work out how many litres it holds at around 20 degrees Celsius ... and fill it to about 70% of that amount to give yourself plenty of wiggle room.

Either way, I don't own a forklift, so it's no problem for me.

seeya
Shane L.