Before I drop the gearbox.....

[Brett1066]

Okay people, I need some advice. After having replaced both the clutch master and slave cylinders I still cannot get the car into gear when the engine is running, so before I try and tackle replacing the clutch:(, is there anything else it could be?

The symptoms - cannot put the car (94 Defender 300tdi) into gear when the engine is running. Engine off, can select all gears regardless of whether I depress the clutch pedal or not. Can start it in gear, get a lurch and then car stalls if I take my foot off the clutch pedal.

Things I have tried - replaced master and slave cylinder, and have bled the system several times, both via gravity and reverse bleeding. Clutch pedal is 140mm from floor, free play on pedal feels fine (about 5mm at pedal), pedal itself does not feel any different to how it always did. Will look at replacing the hose going from master to slave in the next day or so in case it is that (but I doubt it - I am getting rather disillusioned with the car at the moment:censored: and the way my luck has been of late I think I have a more serious problem). Oh yeah - no fluid leaks, either at the master or slave, but the original master cylinder that I swapped out did have a perished internal seal.

Is there anything else that could be causing this? Really want to make sure I have eliminated everything else first. Any tips on replacing the clutch if thats what I need to do? Part of me would like to walk away from this and get someone else to do it, but I don't because 1 - then I won't have the satisfaction of knowing that I fixed it and 2 - can't really afford to pay someone else to do it. Really need to get the car back on the road though, it has been nearly three months for variuos reasons and I am running out of favours from friends running me about everywhere, let alone the missus and kids being sick of me being in the shed all the time.

No mug on the tools but no tradesman either - pulling the gearbox or engine out to get at the clutch is well and truly taking me out of my comfort zone, so any tips or advice will be a great help.

Cheers
Brett

[Dervish]

The symptoms - cannot put the car (94 Defender 300tdi) into gear when the engine is running. Engine off, can select all gears regardless of whether I depress the clutch pedal or not. Can start it in gear, get a lurch and then car stalls if I take my foot off the clutch pedal.

It would seem that the clutch isn't fully disengaging. My guess - and take it with a grain of salt, it's difficult to diagnose from the other side of a forum - is that you have a bent or very worn clutch fork. That still doesn't explain why it is stalling though - does it still stall when you select first and start?

[Brett1066]

Dervish - yep, it will stall if I put it into first and then start her up. I have a new clutch fork here, but was hoping it was something a little easier to replace than that - I figure if I have to replace the clutch fork, it would probably be wise to do the whole clutch while it is open as I don't know when it was last done.

[Don 130]

On advice from here, I recently removed my engine to fix the slipping clutch. If it is the fork, and I don't how to id that, removing the engine is an easier job than doing it by shifting the gearbox. clutch forks on Defenders can punch through, so replace it with a heavy duty one
Don.

[Chenz]

Before you go pulling anything out, check the hose that goes from the metal line from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder. If this is worn, it can expand so all the pressure is lost to the slave which in turn does not disengage the clutch.

I had this problem with my 200 Tdi and changed master and slave cylinder with the same issue. I changed the flexible hose section and no more probs.

[Brett1066]

Chenz - yeah I am hoping it is this, I saw someone on one of the UK forums say that hose caused them the same problem. Will whip it off when I get home from work today, and take it down to Pirtek tomorrow to get a new one made up. Fingers crossed:angel: that will be the end of my problems......well, this particular problem anyway

[TeamFA]

Can start it in gear, get a lurch and then car stalls if I take my foot off the clutch pedal.

I'm comfused about this bit. So if you start the engine with the gearbox in gear and the clutch pedal pushed to the floor, it will keep running UNTIL you release the clutch, at which point it stalls?

If so, this seems like the clutch is actually disengaging, otherwise it would just try to drag the car along while you try to start it in gear.

Or will it stall immediately as soon as you cease engaging the starter motor?

Before you worry about doing anything else with the hydraulic side of the clutch, have you removed the slave cylinder from the bell housing and watched the piston moving with somebody pushing the brake pedal for you? If this is fine, I'd leave that alone for now. Can you visually sight through the slave cylinder hole into the bell housing and spot the clutch pivot arm?

Don't give up just yet, there's more knowledge in this forum that you can shake an armful of sticks at.

[Brett1066]

I'm comfused about this bit. So if you start the engine with the gearbox in gear and the clutch pedal pushed to the floor, it will keep running UNTIL you release the clutch, at which point it stalls?

If so, this seems like the clutch is actually disengaging, otherwise it would just try to drag the car along while you try to start it in gear.

Or will it stall immediately as soon as you cease engaging the starter motor?

Before you worry about doing anything else with the hydraulic side of the clutch, have you removed the slave cylinder from the bell housing and watched the piston moving with somebody pushing the brake pedal for you? If this is fine, I'd leave that alone for now. Can you visually sight through the slave cylinder hole into the bell housing and spot the clutch pivot arm?

Don't give up just yet, there's more knowledge in this forum that you can shake an armful of sticks at.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure whether it is stalling once the starter stops engaging or because I took my foot off the clutch. Not having much room in my shed I haven't been game to do this too often, and as my driveway slopes it is a right :censored: trying to push her back into the shed after testing anything.
But I will check the piston is moving in the slave, I can (kinda) see into the bell housing, and from what I can tell the slave pushrod is still connected to the pivot arm - ie that little plastic clip seems to be in place still, though I can't see it. Will try and get some pics tonight when I get home

[jboot51]

Try transfer case in neutral whilst diagnosing.
You'll soon here the gearbox turning if the clutch is not disengaging.

[JDNSW]

With the slave cylinder removed, you should be able to see whether the fork is bent or punched through. May need a mirror and a small but powerful torch.

John

[weeds]

With the slave cylinder removed, you should be able to see whether the fork is bent or punched through. May need a mirror and a small but powerful torch.

John

This is difficult.....I had the same issue last year

The best result was using my iPhone and taking a pic up the hole......still hard to tell.

Either way it was my second push rod through the fork.

[chopper]

Does the pedal feel normal through the push and release cycle ?
What happened in the first place, why did you replace the hydraulic components ? you indicate that it wouldn't release before you changed the parts indicating that the problem may not be in the hydraulics. If the pedal feels normal then you may have a broken diaphragm/spring in the pressure plate. It wont feel normal with a broken fork.

[Brid]

I had similar symptoms with my Puma, where one of the clutch springs from the clutch plate ejected itself from the plate and got stuck between the pressure plate and clutch...would not disengage. Clutch pedal/hydraulics felt entirely normal in movement.

We could hear a rattle of the spring when started in neutral and clutch pedal out, but not with clutch engaged. However, in our case the spring was loose and not jammed tight. If jammed tight I doubt you would hear the rattle.

Have heard of other cases where a ball from the throw out bearing had jammed the clutch with similar results.

[Brett1066]

Chopper - yeah the pedal feels normal, pulled the slave off and the piston is moving when the pedal is depressed, so it seems everything is OK with the hydraulics.
Going back to the original problem - was driving to work and went to change gears, heard a horrible noise and the car shuddered, couldn't put it into gear. Pulled over, looked under the car and saw steam coming off the front diff. Limped the last 1km to work, got a flatbed to take it home and removed the front diff, pinion bearing was destroyed, so thought OK theres the problem. Replaced the front diff (many thanks to grappler for bringing it up to Perth from Margeret river) and went to take her for a test run - can't put it into gear with the engine running - hence my current problem.

I'm guessing I misdiagonised the original problem - something must be amiss with the clutch, which in turn may have caused the diff to fail (not sure if this is possible:confused:) or it may have been buggered already. Anyway, have decided to replace the clutch....sigh.

[chopper]

[QUOTE=Brid - clutch pedal out, but not with clutch engaged

pedal out is clutch engaged ,

[eddy]

If you can get the vehicle down to Mandurah,there is a fully equipped diy workshop hoist/trans jack etc to make the job easier!I can give you a hand.
Ring Syd 0408166073

[Jode]

Have you tried starting it up with the front prop off?

[Brett1066]

Jode - yeah tried it with the prop shaft off, still no joy, wouldn't go into gear. Resigned to the fact now that I will have to replace the clutch :(.

Eddy - thanks for the offer mate, car not really drivable at the moment so will have to attempt it in my shed. Will be picking up an engine hoist in the next day or so, and have plenty of slings, chains, come-alongs etc here at work, so hopefully I will have all the heavy lifting covered.

So far I have a new clutch kit (yet to arrive), a new heavy duty fork and slipper pads etc, spigot bush, new rear main seal - is there anything else I need or should replace while I am at it? Am planning on lowering the gearbox the access the clutch.... and don't want to have to do it again in a hurry

Thanks to everyone for their replies and advice so far, it really is a great resource we have here on this site.

[JDNSW]

I cannot see how the diff problem could have anything to do with the clutch.

As you seem to have concluded, it is box (or engine) out time. The actual problem will become apparent when it is out.

As I see it, there are several possibilities -

1. Clutch fork is damaged (common)
2. Release bearing or its sleeve is damaged (uncommon)
3. Clutch driven plate is warped or broken (rare)
4. Pressure plate is damaged (never seen one, but could happen)
5. Spigot bearing is dry and dragging or seized (not uncommon but usually very noisy for a long time before any other symptoms - may make parting the engine and box difficult)

John

[Don 130]

Rear main seal goes on without gasket as the gasket is often the thing that fails. Use a good sealant and jack it on with studs and nuts. The form that it comes with is a slippery customer.

[Brett1066]

JDNSW - same, I couldn't see how replacing the diff could have caused my problems with the clutch, but, pardon the pun, I have been clutching at straws lately hoping for a simpler solution than removing the gearbox or engine. Anywho, I will find out exactly what is wrong (hopefully) over the next few days or so.
Will keep you all informed, hopefully get some photo's as well.

[Camp Oven]

Brett
Can you start the engine with foot of the clutch and the vehicle does not move forward or reverse? If yes then you don`t need to read any further. NO then maybe gearbox is in a gear and gear stick has got out the gate.
That problem can happen when the stick has been removed and replaced outside the gate. Give it a wriggle think its in neutral and go to start and away you go. Just my thoughts.
Cheers CO

[Brett1066]

:mad:Arrrgh! Landrovers, you gotta love them.

So whilst I have been waiting for my clutch kit to arrive, I have been getting ready to drop the gearbox - removed floor panels, cubby box, cables etc etc. Go to remove the exhaust bracket and see that it is so rusted there is no way I will be able to remove the bolts without an angle grinder - have tried soaking in CRC, freeze and release - the bolts will not budge. Not only that, but the joining flanges on the two pipes are rusted together also. As is the pipe to the bracket.:censored: So, to drop the gearbox I am probably - no, definitely- going to have to replace the exhaust as well, which I can't afford at this point in time.:censored:

Looks like it will be engine out instead. Does anyone have a dummies guide on removing the donk in a 300tdi with the aim of doing a clutch change. What do I have to remove, and what can I leave in place?

[chopper]

If the exhaust is that bad down there I hope you don't start breaking studs up at the turbo.

[Brett1066]

Nah the turbo to exhaust flange is all good, only replaced the turbo about 9 months ago, the rust doesn't really become an issue until the middle section of the exhaust.....thankfully. Still a pain tho.

[Bush Animal]

Hi I don,t know if the clutch was working before you started fitting master cylinders hoses etc But years ago I had a problem similar to what you are haveing it turned out to be that the clutch plate had stuck to the flywheel through moisture in the bell housing by a bit of surface rust. Drive the landy to about a meter from a large tree push in the clutch and ram the tree. Shure beats pulling out motor or gearbox
Cheers

[PAT303]

Brett,how far into it are you,I'd take up Eddy's offer,get a trailer and I'll tow it down there for you and we'll get stuck into it. Pat

[Brett1066]

Pat - cheers for the offer but I am almost there - all things being equal I should be able to pull the donk out tomorrow, and get a look at the clutch and see what is going on. Hopefully the Landrover gods will be smiling upon me and I will have the big girl up and running again soon.
Once again, thanks to yorself and Eddy for the offer of help, if I wasn't so far into it I would definitely take you up on it, but the end is in sight. I hope ;)

[PAT303]

Don't take it all they way out,just move it forward enough to get the clutch out,last time I did it pulling the rad gave me heaps of room. Pat

[PAT303]

Should of added I'm free tomorrow avo and sunday if you need a hand. Pat

[Brett1066]

Managed to get the clutch replaced on the weekend, cheers for the offer of help Pat, had a mate from work come over Saturday and give me a hand with moving the engine (those engine mounts are a right PITA:censored:) - took your advice and just pulled the engine back, don't think we would have been able to pull the whole thing out anyway.
Clutch was buggered, have attached a pic of what I found, not sure of the technical terms, but you can see around the springs where the metal has snapped, some of the pieces are on the ground in the foreground of the photo. Guessing (hoping) this is why I couldn't disengage the clutch.
Anyway, just gotta finish putting everything back together and will be able to take it for a test run in the next couple of days. Fingers crossed, all will be good :angel:


80036

[Mammalalien]

Glad it was something clear to spot. It might have actually been worse to do all that dismantling only to find perfectly serviceable parts inside.

Best of luck with the test run.

Pt.

[Brett1066]

:D:D:D I have a working clutch! woo hoo! Wasn't able to take her out for a proper drive yesterday, as I still have to put the flooring back in, and get the damn transmission tunnel back in, but started her up when I got home and was able to reverse the car out of my shed for the first time in several weeks, and drive it back in. So it seems that I have fixed that problem - a huge relief. I must say, never have I done something that has been so incredibly frustrating and yet so rewarding in the end. Not sure it is something I would recommend for everyone to try, but for those so inclined, it is worth a crack if you have the time, the tools and somewhere to work on it.

Many thanks to Pat and Eddy for their offers of help - next time I have to do something like this (and I'm sure there will be a next time - it's a Landrover after all ;)) I think I will take you up on it, to Grappler for kindly bringing up to Perth the axle I bought off him, and to everyone else for their replies, advice and suggestions. :clap2:

Anyone know what would have caused the clutch to fail the way it did? It was only about 25000km old, was put in about 3 years ago when I had the engine rebuilt. Just a faulty part, or could it be indicative of a problem somewhere else?

[phibbzy]

Just a guess but as the failure of the metal in the clutch looks fresh (not developed from a stress crack), it is located around one of the springs and it is a 6 spring unit (as apposed to the heavier, larger 6 spring unit). I might hazard a guess and say it is trauma related combined with a ****ty part? What brand was the driven & pressure plate?

[Brett1066]

It was an AP brand - same as what I have fitted, am hoping it doesn't do it again in the near future. Would have liked to put in a heavier clutch like what is in the 130's, but the budget just didn't stretch far enough. Time will tell I guess.

[PAT303]

Brett,the HD 130 clutches suck IMHO,they make the peddle too heavy.The TDCi clutches look like that when they fail,maybe a bad design?,LR have brought out an updated model. Pat

[Brett1066]

So I was able to finally take the big girl out for a test drive yesterday, and drove her into work today, so far so good. Not sure if its just my paranoia after not having driven it for nearly three months :confused:, but it does sound and feel a little bit different to how it used to, not really in a bad way, just different. Like I said, it's been a while though.