What actually stops an e-diff retrofit?

[winaje]

Starting to think of some options, I noted a reco'ed e-diff on ebay for a bit over $1k. So I am wondering what actually stops the retrofit of an e-diff into a D3 that doesn't have one? From what I can see if you are committed enough you can retrofit anything...

I assume the diff has to be installed, electrical cabling fitted, then the ECU told that it's there. Is there anything else?

TIA

[sheerluck]

Will, there was someone on Disco3 that managed to do it. Have a search on there.

From what I recall, it was a lot more than just the diff and some cabling, but the rear axles, and other bits.

[101RRS]

There is also the ARB airlocker option if you are keen.

Retrofitting the e-diff, as Sheerluck has said, is far more involved and expensive than just putting the diff in and connecting it up.

[rar110]

I understand the rear diffs in the v8 are a different ratio to the diff in a TDV6. That's something you might need to confirm if looking to buy.

[lpj]

It's a huge amount of work, which makes for a very costly retrofit. It adds comparatively little in terms of off-road performance in most 4x4 situations.

I think that most have decided that considering that it's a only a $1000 option when new, it's not really worth the effort in terms of added value.

That said, if your interested in the "hobby" aspect, then it could be interesting.

Sheerlucks project has been a great and interesting read. At the end though, he'll end up with a fantastic car very cheaply, depending how you cost out labour.

[sheerluck]

I understand the rear diffs in the v8 are a different ratio to the diff in a TDV6. That's something you might need to confirm if looking to buy.

Definitely the case. Different part number. I know, because I nearly hit Buy-it-now on an eBay auction that was going cheap until I did the research.

[Graeme]

You would need the whole diff including the stepper motor mounted on top as well as its ecu from a MY07+ D3.

[unseenone]

We are actually working on a retrofit e-diff kit. This will allow %lock via switch in the cabin, and be separate from the vehicle system (not integrated).

It can be done, like the fellow in UK if you are willing to do the work and source the bits.

If you want the ARB, but need new gears (any std. ratio), bearings, crush sleeve etc. to fit the air locker, I can supply that.

The ARB kit is for fitting on a non-locker diff, or the front. (two separate kits) and also require an additional compressor.

The locker can be fitted to a non-locker vehicle directly by removing the e-diff motor, and fitting a sealing plate in it's place (until our kit) is ready.

The rear half shafts are heavier duty on a locker fitted vehicle, but will work just fine as direct swap into the vehicle which has a non-locker half shafts. If you have to replace axle half shafts, you can always fit the heavier ones.

The D3/RRS diffs are the same ratio in a Petrol. TDV6 & RRS supercharge Petrol are the same ratio.

V6 Diesel engine - Manual transmission 3.07:1
V6 Diesel engine - Automatic transmission 3.54:1
V6 Petrol engine - Automatic transmission 3.73:1
V8 Petrol engine - Automatic transmission 3.73:1

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/268.jpg

More pictures here (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/index.php?cat=11463)

[~Rich~]

So Unseenone, can you supply rebuild kits for any D3 / D4 RRS locking or standard diff?
Be a good alternative for anyone who is handy with the spanners.

I see you are in the states which may see shipping cost a bit though unfortunately,

Any idea on shipping costs to Aus?

Cheers Rich

[unseenone]

can you supply rebuild kits for any D3 / D4 RRS locking or standard diff?
Yes, Yes & Yes

Be a good alternative for anyone who is handy with the spanners.
Yes- Gearbox shops, or folks with Diff rebuild experience, who can take the time to do it right. Or import completed ones, and export ones that are shot.

I see you are in the states which may see shipping cost a bit though unfortunately.

I know, I buy quite a bit of stuff in Australia, and it's very costly for the smallest object. I am looking for resellers and shops to import a large enough shipment to do sea freight, way way cheaper. Great products, we manufacture our own gears, and components, bearings are OE. The companies of choice would be doing the marketing, and helping out the LR community. First they need to know the product exists.

Any idea on shipping costs to Aus? -
One at a time, it is not practical.

I believe we have some stock in Australia. I am looking for shops and resellers who can order larger quantity so it can be shipped sea freight.

You can drop me a PM and I'll provide you details and where to check for current stock there.

[~Rich~]

Thanks for the info, I was asking for the general forum members.

I thought I may have had a diff issue but it seems to be either the A/C compressor or belt tensioner making an engine revs related whirring sound.

I will however pass on you info to my mechanic.

[unseenone]

No problem. I'd be curious at the outcome on your AC. I have heard some people repair a bearing in it, but never any details on that. I have the whirring as well, have had for some time. I've heard everything from Low refrigerant to belts, pulleys, etc. I put new belts, tensioners on a while back, so I don't think that's the issue.

[morpheus]

Now here's a question: what if a non e diff car had its rear diff replaced with a rear e diff?

The reason I ask is that today, when I picked up my car from its major service I was told I had an e diff. My car recently had both its diffs replaced by a dealer (not same garage) and I definitely did not have an e diff before....

[SBD4]

It would mean nothing unless the relevant ECU and wiring looms were installed to allow it become operational.

Good thing is the hardest(physical) part is done - you could source the rest of the parts and embark on a fun project to enable it;)

[tiddy]

It would mean nothing unless the relevant ECU and wiring looms were installed to allow it become operational.

Good thing is the hardest(physical) part is done - you could source the rest of the parts and embark on a fun project to enable it;)

Isn't the rear axle different as well on an e-diff equipped Discovery?

tiddy

[SBD4]

Isn't the rear axle different as well on an e-diff equipped Discovery?

tiddy

I think the half shafts are heavier duty for the e-diff. If all the mechanical hardware is installed then all that is required is the electrical components and activation in the CCF to make it work. not a trivial task though.

[isuzurover]

Now here's a question: what if a non e diff car had its rear diff replaced with a rear e diff?

The reason I ask is that today, when I picked up my car from its major service I was told I had an e diff. My car recently had both its diffs replaced by a dealer (not same garage) and I definitely did not have an e diff before....

If you have the e-diff hardware (and stepper motor) installed then the easiest way would be to add a switch to control it manually (as per unseenone's posts).

Have you looked underneath to see if you have one of these? (note stepper motor on top).
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/1151.jpg
http://www.bristoltransmissions.co.uk/shop/img/p/69-134-large.jpg

[isuzurover]

...

[jonesy63]

Not sure if anyone has seen it, but there was a recent Top Gear USA episode where they "race" a Jeep something or other, a FJ Cruiser and a D4 across Arizona. The D4 had manual switches retrofitted to lock front and rear diffs. Not sure which kit it was fitted.

[unseenone]

Now here's a question: what if a non e diff car had its rear diff replaced with a rear e diff?

The reason I ask is that today, when I picked up my car from its major service I was told I had an e diff. My car recently had both its diffs replaced by a dealer (not same garage) and I definitely did not have an e diff before....

We commonly fit an e-diff, less the electric motor, with a silver plate installed. It's a better diff. I highly doubt that they installed a full e-diff in place of an open one, and then wired, and activated it.

Yes, the axles are heavier duty on the locking diff, but you can direct swap them if you remove the motor.

The one featured on top gear was the owner of expedition portal forums in America, it is fitted with ARB front / rear lockers and compressor, etc. The only issues are the cost, the addition of a compressor, and the fact they don't offer new gears or bearings, which we have available if you choose that direction.

[Graeme]

what if a non e diff car had its rear diff replaced with a rear e diff?

..I definitely did not have an e diff before....
You now have a stronger rear diff.

What's your basis for believing that it was not previously fitted with an e-diff? With mine one would have to spot the stepper motor under all the dirt or look at the build information on Topix.

[morpheus]

If you have the e-diff hardware (and stepper motor) installed then the easiest way would be to add a switch to control it manually (as per unseenone's posts).

Have you looked underneath to see if you have one of these? (note stepper motor on top).
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/1151.jpg
http://www.bristoltransmissions.co.uk/shop/img/p/69-134-large.jpg

No, I haven't looked yet. I plan to get under the car and have a look on the weekend. Thanks for the image.

[morpheus]

Hi Graeme,

I checked TOPIx when I bought the vehicle and rang the garage that serviced the vehicle previously - confirmed it was a non e diff car.

Last night the mechanic was going through what had been done on the car and he told me that I had a rear e diff. I challenged him on this and he said it was definitely an e diff, as they are distinct (can see this now from the image above - plus he has serviced land rovers for years and spent a fair bit of time under my car chasing another bearing noise...). He reckons that the dealership must have replaced my old diff with whatever they could get their hands on, and it just happened to be an e diff.

Thanks for the responses, I was more worried that it wasn't compatible and was considering going back to the [expletive] dealer.

[Epic pooh]

Did you get to the bottom of that Morpheus ?

Was the work done by the major ACT LR dealer ?

[morpheus]

Hi Mick,

I haven't had a chance to get under the vehicle myself yet, so I haven't followed anything up. I am at least assured by the responses above that it won't break if indeed the 'wrong' type of diff has been fitted - which is what had worried me!

Yep, bought the car from The local ACT LR dealer, and they fitted the replacement front and rear diffs. Service recently was carried out by Canberra Motor Works (who has a new owner by the way).

James

[isuzurover]

...
I haven't had a chance to get under the vehicle myself yet, ...

You only need a spare 30s. Less than the time it takes to post on here...

[morpheus]

Do you have kids? :)

[101RRS]

Do you have kids? :)

I guess you do - get them to check it for you :D

[Graeme]

You only need a spare 30s. Less than the time it takes to post on here...Not so quick if no stepper motor fitted although easier if not yet covered in mud.

[Epic pooh]

Send then under the car with a torch and a camera !

[scarry]

You only need a spare 30s. Less than the time it takes to post on here...

Dunno gotta start the car,wait for it to get to off road height,turn off then crawl under neath.;)

About a minute i recon.:p

[morpheus]

So managed to get Away from the terrible two for a few minutes and hopped under the car. Diff kinda looks the same as the image by isuzurover... I just don't know what a non e diff looks like. Pics didn't come out very well

[morpheus]

...this time with pics. sorry!!!

[Epic pooh]

From the pic, looks to be an e-diff (seem to have part 4 in diagram a which is the actuator motor). Is it actually a new diff, or have the just picked one up from somewhere and put it in ?

No disrespect to anyone who may be associated and reading, but I had a fairly unhappy/unsatisfactory experience with the main ACT LR dealer last year ... so they are not high on my list of places to go again (ie. if my LR ever screwed up and the choice was ACT or home, I'd have it sent home ... yay again for the NRMA Premium Care ... home was actually their advice last year ... probably should have listened ... ).

[morpheus]

EDIT - yeah it looks like the actuator on top. I just couldn't get my phone close enough, or the right angle.

I reckon it is a secondhand diff, Mick - it isn't new. At least I didn’t have to pay for it.

I am not surprised to hear about your experience.

I could put up more pics, but they are all of the same quality - I used my phone, so they aren't the best.

I will ring LR tomorrow with the VIN to check the vehicle's original specs - didn't say anything in TOPIx.

[Epic pooh]

Do you have navigation / 4x4 info screen on your vehicle ?

Anyway, a quiet diff that cost nothing ... all good :D

I'm not going to say anything else about that mob, as I can't find anything to say that would be in good taste and within the rules !

[morpheus]

I'm not going to say anything else about that mob, as I can't find anything to say that would be in good taste and within the rules !

Couldn't agree with you more!! Plus it doesn't change anything anyway.

Yeah, I have the nav. Gotta make sure I know the original specs for the vehicle though, the diffs won't lock (automatically obviously) if they aren't meant to right?

[Graeme]

Its an e-diff.

[Epic pooh]

Well if it didn't have an ediff it won't lock because it is inconceivable that they did a full conversion. Put it in rock crawl, low range, 4x4 info on and go get it crossed up somewhere ... That'll answer the question !!

[rar110]

Does ediff require the larger center dash colour screen? I remember seeing (on the net) on a couple of D3s the rear locker activation being shown on a colour in car screen.

[sheerluck]

There's only one size of screen in a D3. And a screen is not required, it's only if you have the sat-nav option.

[~Rich~]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/1007.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/VSK5/media/IMG_3011-1.jpg.html)

Diffs lock symbol changes to Red when locked.

And no you don't require the screen to have a eDiff. ;)

[rar110]

There's only one size of screen in a D3. And a screen is not required, it's only if you have the sat-nav option.

Thanks. I've only seen pics. I thought it looked like there were two screen types, a bit like the D4s.

[Epic pooh]

Hole or screen are your options. The screen is nice to have but the navigation is quite outdated. Breadcrumb mode is cool (but even then overtaken by mobile devices for many) and 4x4 info is nice for some but not necessary (good quick reference for what mode you're in or if a wheel is off the ground or a height sensor needs a visit from a toothbrush). I was just suggesting it as an easy way of telling if the car thinks it has an ediff.

[winaje]

So it IS possible to completely retrofit to the factory version and functionality, and has been done in the UK by Spooky on www.disco3club.co.uk (http://www.disco3club.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=3445). I've downloaded the full instructions, and uploaded them to my Box.com account, giving Spooky full credit.

Spookys_E-diff_Bible_v1_1a.pdf (https://app.box.com/s/km9mm7e9vx983o9xbt2z)

[sheerluck]

Yes, it is possible, and has been done, just as I mentioned on the first page. It's just a case of how badly you want to do it. ;)

[winaje]

Thanks Sheerluck, sorry I forgot you said it's possible and had been done.....

[jimc]

whats the collective thoughts on having a manual switch in the cabin for the OEM elocker..kind of like an air locker setup but using landrover ediff.

[isuzurover]

whats the collective thoughts on having a manual switch in the cabin for the OEM elocker..kind of like an air locker setup but using landrover ediff.

It is not so much as a manual switch (on/off) as a manual dial (% lock (0-100)). The e-locker is not actually a proper locker, it is more correctly described as an e-LSD.

The only problem with doing it manually is how robust the locker is. E.g. how long would it hold up if you tried to use it like a standard locker offroad - lock it 100% and drive a km or so of track... There have been suggestions on here that either the hardware or the stepper motor are only strong enough to hold up to a few seconds of 100% lock, however they may be unfounded.

Our American friend can probably best comment on that as he is selling the kits...

[unseenone]

The one we are working on will lock at 25, 50, 75, 100 switchable. It will utilize the temperature sensor, and ease off the lock if it starts to overheat. This will protect the diff.

The project is 80% complete & tested, sourcing the correct electronic connectors to mate with the rover is one of the biggest issues. So it's mainly down to a few loose ends and manufacturing / production.

The design of the e-diff in general is very robust, it's the the low oil capacity that is disturbing. I always recommend the best way to extend their life is change the oil more frequently in them. Mine died of rust, in TX with no rain and no fording.

I hope that answers your question.

[Graeme]

There have been suggestions on here that either the hardware or the stepper motor are only strong enough to hold up to a few seconds of 100% lock, however they may be unfounded.More applicable to the centre diff with its less robust design.

[unseenone]

It's actually a very robust diff. The clutch pack is activated on a cam. If anyone is interested I can post some pictures of various internal bits of interest.

[isuzurover]

It's actually a very robust diff. The clutch pack is activated on a cam. If anyone is interested I can post some pictures of various internal bits of interest.

Yes please. Also, any pics of broken ones?

[unseenone]

There are plenty of pics of broken ones, but mostly they are all the same problems, rust, excessive wear on the gears. The clutch packs never go bad, there is so little movement, and virtually no wear.

Here is a picture of the typical noisy diff, or at least one of the reasons they get noisy. Note the rust, which is typical.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/777.jpg


Here you see the center piece all split apart, and cleaned read for reassembly.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/778.jpg


Here is a closer picture of the clutch pack. Each plate is separated by a small shim/spacer. Note the flange (rust colored) in the back ground.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/779.jpg


Plenty more pictures of bits if you are still interested.

[sheerluck]

Yes please! Keep them coming!

[winaje]

What's the cause of the rust???

[unseenone]

My theory on the rust is, that the heating and cooling of the unit causes condensation, which does not vent out. Left for long enough, it gets hold and begins to form a rust paste. The result is disintegration of the bearings, and excessive wear on the crappy gears. These gears can/do occasionally give way as well. I believe the best action is preventative, which is changing the oil more frequently to keep the moisture flushed out, and ensuring the vents are connected, and nothing is plugged. This will extend the life, but eventually every unit will need proper rebuilding, bearings wear out.

Here you will see a pinion gear from yet another diff, it's not a great shot, but you can see the rust on it. The Crown Wheel, Pinion, Bearings, and seals go directly into the scrap bin when we do a diff, and brand new ones are fitted. The new ones are better quality, tolerances, with a quieter operation.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/734.jpg

Here you will see the clutch packs, laid out so you can see the spacers between each pack. Note: the one pictured here is the diff in my own truck today.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/735.jpg


Here is yet another diff, just after splitting the case. Note the wonderful colored oil. What do you suppose we will find when we open this up?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/736.jpg


Plenty more available if there is interest.

[Greatsouthernland]

[URL=http://s193.photobucket.com/user/VSK5/media/IMG_3011-1.jpg.html]

Diffs lock symbol changes to Red when locked.

And no you don't require the screen to have a eDiff. ;)

And the strange thing is the rear diff can lock independent of the centre diff..:eek:

[Greatsouthernland]

both.

[101RRS]

Why is that strange?

[Greatsouthernland]

centre only.

[isuzurover]

Why is that strange?

I can understand why the electronics would do it, and maybe there are cases where it is justified. However, if you try and drive up a hill in a lower tech vehicle with the rear locked and the centre unlocked you will soon stop with one front wheel spinning as the CD transfers all drive to the front.

I have a video somewhere of Trav (aquarangie) doing exactly that because his RRC had a rear ARB (locked) and a worn BW t-case that had not locked up yet.

[Greatsouthernland]

Why is that strange?

Well, I just thought that as the rear needed to lock, it would consume more torque from the transfer case thus removing torque from the front wheels slowing the vehicle if those front wheels had traction. So by the centre locking it maintains the front torque and traction.

Which did happen in one case, I have a movie of the rear locking then the centre while the rear stayed locked, then rear unlocked and centre stayed locked. But it's too big to upload now, need to trim it first...

But I don't understand it and the electronics are pretty awesome, so with all the permutations for different TR scenarios, including engine braking down hill & hill descent control, I guess it's not strange after all. Thanks for allowing me to soul search and reconsider ;)

[101RRS]

For sure, but in many situations have both rear wheels locked will negate the need for the center diff to lock.

[isuzurover]

For sure, but in many situations have both rear wheels locked will negate the need for the center diff to lock.

Give one example.

[101RRS]

Give one example.

When one rear wheel looses traction and the other rear wheel does have traction.

[isuzurover]

When one rear wheel looses traction and the other rear wheel does have traction.

Only if both front wheels both have full traction.