Defender wheel bearings

[Benz]

Just a quick question.

Have just finished a trip to the top of Cape York and will head off to Darwin in a couple of days.

this afternoon I quickly went over the car to make sure the old boy didn't have in major issues.
I noticed the rear drivers and front passenger wheels seem to have a bit of movement in them. I guess the wheel bearing are on their way out.

Is this something I need to get onto straight away? or will it be alright for a while?
I thought I would be a good idea to get some spares so I could fix it if the blew out but then again it's not a huge job to get it fixed properly before we head back west.

would I be stupid not to get it sorted now?

[steveG]

Are you running oil-lubed or grease in your bearings?

If greased, when was the last time you checked them. If not within the last 12months I'd pull them off now, clean/inspect and then either repack or replace depending on what they are like.

If oil lubed I'd probably just pull the drive flanges and see if a slight adjustment will take up the play (and that the wheels rotate smoothly with no sign of bearing issues) as well as carry some spares.
Always a good idea to carry spare wheel bearings anyway I reckon.

Steve

[Benz]

I imagine they are just the standard greased type.

and they haven't been looked at in quite some time...:angel:

I would be a bit of a pain to stop and sort them out but at the end of the day I will be pretty angry with myself if they did fail and I had to try and sort it out on the side of the road or even worse.... I required a tilt truck!

I guess Cairns is a pretty nice place to stay while I get it fixed.

[inside]

Front wheel bearing play will also affect braking performance. You can check this by jacking up the wheel, grabbing at 12 & 6 then check for play by rocking in and out. If there is any get a helper to press the brakes, if the play goes away with the brake then it's certainly needed to adjust the wheel bearing to remove the play but will not necessarily require a new bearing. I would be sorting it out with some urgency, it's quite an easy field fix.

As mentioned above, it's always wise to carry spare bearings.

[Benz]

Front wheel bearing play will also affect braking performance. You can check this by jacking up the wheel, grabbing at 12 & 6 then check for play by rocking in and out. If there is any get a helper to press the brakes, if the play goes away with the brake then it's certainly needed to adjust the wheel bearing to remove the play but will not necessarily require a new bearing. I would be sorting it out with some urgency, it's quite an easy field fix.

As mentioned above, it's always wise to carry spare bearings.

yeah this is where the play is.
Will see what I can sort out come monday.

[steveG]

In that case, definitely a good idea to sort them out properly while you're in a place where its easy to get parts etc.

Make sure you replace the hub seals and lock washers while you are at it. I always use the older style RTC3511 seals and use a drive flange to seat them to the proper depth.
I'd also do the other 2 hubs at the same time, since you're already having to do a brake bleed etc anyway.

From memory you'll need a 13mm?? double-hex (12 point) socket for the front brake caliper bolts. Don't forget to put some loctite on them when you refit them as its a real PITA when you lose one on the road :angel:

Steve

[simmo]

if you can feel any movement in the wheel it's best to have a look at them. better to do them at home than on the side of the road. They do need adjustment during their life. I adjust mine maybe each year, about every 10,000 kms, as required. The late model defenders have preload sleeves inside I think, they are different from the older ones. But the old ones are easy, you have good advice already about them.:)

[Phil HH]

I found with my RRC that when the front wheel bearings are set up correctly as per the workshop manual with .004" end float, then there is perceptible wheel movement when cold, and none when hot. The local clutch and brake place machined the discs, and replaced the hubs with no play ("Did you set the bearings up correctly?" "Oh yes, of course."). When the hubs got hot they overheated something wicked and spewed oil.
Just thought that I'd make this observation and suggest that you check the book before you tighten them up snug.

[Benz]

I found with my RRC that when the front wheel bearings are set up correctly as per the workshop manual with .004" end float, then there is perceptible wheel movement when cold, and none when hot. The local clutch and brake place machined the discs, and replaced the hubs with no play ("Did you set the bearings up correctly?" "Oh yes, of course."). When the hubs got hot they overheated something wicked and spewed oil.
Just thought that I'd make this observation and suggest that you check the book before you tighten them up snug.

The movement is new but I understand what you mean about having them done to the correct spec.

I'm considering getting the landy place in cairns to do it as I havent done wheel bearings myself before. Would hate to get it wrong and i dont have a hub socket or torque wrench anyway.

I just wonder how busy they are. I dont want to wait around too long...

[steveG]

Torque wrench isn't critical IMO, but yes, you'd need the hub nut socket (although you can get away with a cold chisel or screwdriver for an emergency roadside repair).

Steve

[rick130]

I found with my RRC that when the front wheel bearings are set up correctly as per the workshop manual with .004" end float, then there is perceptible wheel movement when cold, and none when hot. The local clutch and brake place machined the discs, and replaced the hubs with no play ("Did you set the bearings up correctly?" "Oh yes, of course."). When the hubs got hot they overheated something wicked and spewed oil.
Just thought that I'd make this observation and suggest that you check the book before you tighten them up snug.
I disagree, I feel a taper roller bearing needs the tiniest bit of pre load.
The mid nineties Defender manual has a good set up procedure, I'd follow that.

Always set them up with pre load beginning with various Jeeps a very long time ago and never had a wheel bearing failure on any vehicle I've serviced.

Well packed bearings using very good high temp grease also goes a long way to a long life (if not using oil lubed bearings)

[PAT303]

Same here,I never fit wheel bearings with clearance,I do them with the wheel on and spin them until I feel resistance and then back off the nut a touch. Pat

[Phil HH]

Certainly with the RRC the hubs have a higher temperature expansion rate than the tubes that they mount on. When the brake discs heat the hubs the extra expansion takes up the play.
The workshop manual states that end float "must be .002" to.004" ", both for the front and rear bearings. Disagree with that.


Pat, isn't backing the nut off giving clearance?

[rick130]

Certainly with the RRC the hubs have a higher temperature expansion rate than the tubes that they mount on. When the brake discs heat the hubs the extra expansion takes up the play.
The workshop manual states that end float "must be .002" to.004" ", both for the front and rear bearings. Disagree with that.


Pat, isn't backing the nut off giving clearance?


And the pre fixed spacer Defender manual states to use 50Nm, back off 90* and then do up to 10Nm so there is no play and a tiny amount of pre-load.

As stated I've always used pre-load, whether it was a Jeep, Nissan, Toyota, Holden, Ford or a trailer and always had very, very good bearing life.

[PAT303]

^ what he said. Pat

[scarry]

Same for the fronts on the Puma?

I have to have a look at them soon,rears are oiled.

[Sirocco]

I would advise doing this yourself as it is great way of learning what is going on down there. All you need outside of a basic tool kit is the 52mm box spanner.

I have changed out bearings on a campsite before and it wasn't too much of an issue. Allow about an hour each side for re-packing. If you are replacing wheel bearings then maybe 1.5 hours.

As others have said, I tighten the locknut up tight and then back off a little to allow the wheel to spin freely but with no lateral movement.

Once you have done it yourself once you will know it has been done correctly and more importantly that the lock nut has been hand tightened not with a windy gun! That one I did in the campsite had to be chiselled off :( since then I know that I have had all bearings replaced and I repack them once a year.

Bearings welding themselves to stub axles is not fun, I had that on my old 90. Look after them, they take a lot of punishment.

G

[rick130]

Same for the fronts on the Puma?

I have to have a look at them soon,rears are oiled.
Paul, I think you'll find they are the same as for the TD5, a spacer and shim arrangement between the cones, where you just do the nut up to a specified tension.

[Benz]

Okay so the mechanic at the landy care centre is away on holidays and the cairns landrover specialists cant fit me in.
I can get the spairs though. Maybe I will tackel it myself after all.
Just need to find a place to do it now. Not sure the caravan park would be too keen on letting me do it there...

[PAT303]

Have you pulled the axles and found out what the problem is?,they do have a habit of simply coming loose. Pat

[harro]

Okay so the mechanic at the landy care centre is away on holidays and the cairns landrover specialists cant fit me in.
I can get the spairs though. Maybe I will tackel it myself after all.
Just need to find a place to do it now. Not sure the caravan park would be too keen on letting me do it there...

I will pm you my number and you can do them in my yard if you need somewhere.
I am in Redlynch

Cheers,
Paul.

[Benz]

harro/Paul has been an absolute legend and let me use his nicely grassed front lawn to get the 130 back in top shape.
He even lent me tools, offered advice on the job at hand and gave me some thread lock and sealant to use.
Then he was nice enough to give us a real bed to sleep in, a shower to use and even some beer!

To do all this for a complete stranger is quite amazing! Paul we can't thank you enough :)

I'm sure the 130 will be all back together tomorrow.

I am converting the rears to the double lipped oiled bearings.

I'm guessing the front is a little harder to do though right?

thanks
Ben

[rick130]

YOu can use the RTC3511 seals on the front, they are so much better it's worth it, and just re-pack the bearings with grease and then every so often just nip them up when they loosen a little (they will) and pack some grease under the rubber cap to keep the stub axle splines lubed.

IME oil lubed bearings need far, far less adjusting than greased bearings, but I don't have a huge problem with greased ones either and have left the front of my Deefer greased.

[steveG]

Were the rear bearings OK when you pulled them out Ben? Did you end up just greasing and refitting or replacing them?

Steve

[Benz]

Were the rear bearings OK when you pulled them out Ben? Did you end up just greasing and refitting or replacing them?

Steve

I'm replacing all of the wheel bearings.

One of the rears had a loose hub nut. tightened it up just to see if it would fix it but the movement was still there.
the other side on the rear was fine but i thought it would be a good idea to do it anyway and I am changing the rear disks while I'm at it. one side had some metal on metal breaking going on which kind of ruined the disk somewhat :angel:

I will leave the front greased. I have maxi flanges on the back and I can seal those up pretty easily. the front has standard rubber caps and I know they will leak making a mess. I will use the double lipped seals though as they are much better.

Will do the front over the next few hours.

[steveG]

Good news that they weren't stuffed.
If the old bearings are still in reasonable shape, clean and regrease them then store away in a snaplock bag with your spares.
No point carrying all 8 of them with you so just choose the best pair and leave the others.

Steve

[uninformed]

If doing what Steve said, try not to mix up the cup and cone of each. A zip tie keeps them as original pairs.

[steveG]

If doing what Steve said, try not to mix up the cup and cone. Of each. I zip tie keeps them as original pairs.

Good point. One of those things I do automatically and didn't think to mention.

Not something to get super hung up on though. If you were changing a bearing on the side of the road and dropped the matching cone in the sand, I'd fit a non-matching one in preference to trying to clean out the contaminated one.
Likewise if you've already thrown them all in one bag don't toss them all out because they're no longer matching.

Steve

[Benz]

all done now!

on the front the drivers side was fine but the passenger side, the one with play, had water in it...
just as a test I tightened that one up to spec and it took the play out but it still sounded horrible as I spun the hub.

I changed the bearings on both sides just to be safe. I haven't even looked at them since I bought the car so it feels good to know they are all sweet now.
I also have fresh break pads on all 4 corners and even new disks on the rear.

again Paul has been very kind to us. I don't know how to repay him. His hospitality really has surprised us, it's almost like staying at a fancy hotel at his place.

Thanks to all who offered me information.
and a super big thanks to Paul for welcoming us into his lovely house.

[simmo]

hi Ben, I made my car oil filled front hubs fairly easily about 13 years ago by drilling through the drive flange and fitting a 1/8" NPT or 1/8' gas plug. it takes about 1 hour per wheel, the drive flange material is tough so take it easy with the tap. (I'd buy one flange and do it first and work my way progressively through the car) I posted a photo in an earlier post, i'll see if I can find the photo again. I never removed the inside seals between the hub and the CV joint swivel. Reason it was too difficult to do at the time, it was on the "gunna" list for about 5 years. I only had problem once, I did pop the front rubber caps off once after coming down mount sterling (2,200 meters), it was very steep and i was using the brakes a lot and the hubs were very hot, we found one of the rubber caps beside the track. I always carry a couple of spares anyhow. I can change the oil on the roadside in 30 minutes if required. each hub holds 60 mls to 80 mls , ( 25 or 30 ml plastic syringe available at the chemist for $2). I can check for water contamination anytime by removing the plug and letting some oil out. Oil filled hubs keep the shaft splines always wet and clean. The landrover drive flanges will probably last forever on oil filled hub cars. my front drive flanges and shafts have done 200,000 kms and look like new.
I think the bearings on my car have been there for maybe 70,000 kms, and get the occasional adjustment when i can feel slack in the wheel. But the hubs have not been apart since they were oil filled except if I had a leaking seal. The good quality "LR county" wheel bearing seals seem to last a long time , i guess i changed one or two in the last 13 years & 100,000 kms.:)

[steveG]

all done now!

on the front the drivers side was fine but the passenger side, the one with play, had water in it...
just as a test I tightened that one up to spec and it took the play out but it still sounded horrible as I spun the hub.

I changed the bearings on both sides just to be safe. I haven't even looked at them since I bought the car so it feels good to know they are all sweet now.
I also have fresh break pads on all 4 corners and even new disks on the rear.

again Paul has been very kind to us. I don't know how to repay him. His hospitality really has surprised us, it's almost like staying at a fancy hotel at his place.

Thanks to all who offered me information.
and a super big thanks to Paul for welcoming us into his lovely house.

Good work. I'm sure you've learned lots in the process too. Safe travels for the next legs of the journey.

And goodonya Paul for helping him out :BigThumb::BigThumb:
Always great to see the Aulro community at work.

Steve

[philthy]

Sorry for butting in, but I'm having issues with my 2000 130 Tdi defender seal repair job. Bought a nut/seal,doing it myself, dont have a tension wrench or 52mm box socket. Any tricks to getting away with not using a Tension wrench,and where to buy a 52mm box socket in Oz from,with 1/2"drive to use a tension wrench (to do the job properly) Open to any and all suggestions. I'll intro myself and babble a bit if and when I can work out how, thanks guys:p

[weeds]

Sorry for butting in, but I'm having issues with my 2000 130 Tdi defender seal repair job. Bought a nut/seal,doing it myself, dont have a tension wrench or 52mm box socket. Any tricks to getting away with not using a Tension wrench,and where to buy a 52mm box socket in Oz from,with 1/2"drive to use a tension wrench (to do the job properly) Open to any and all suggestions. I'll intro myself and babble a bit if and when I can work out how, thanks guys:p

I have never used a torque wrench......a screw driver threw the two holes in the tube spanner than go by feel

Maybe a plumbing shop will have a tube spanner, they are only like $15 from my local mechanic

[simmo]

The box spanner is available form most landrover shops and on the internet mail order places like 4x4 in Melbourne etc. If you want to use a torque wrench weld a piece of flat bar across the end of the box spanner and then weld a cheap socket to the center of flat bar. Choose a socket that has the correct drive size to suit your torque wrench, 1/4" or 3/8" because the torque is very small, too small for 1/2" drive usually. Making sucha tool has been on my "gunna" list for nearly 15 years, so i guess it's not so important.