Nissan Motorsport Jack Daniels Racing,Sooks Or Fair Enough?

[disco man]

Todd Kelly has slammed a V8 supercars-imposed engine restriction which could cause the collapse of his factory-backed Nissan team.Kelly said Nissan had spent millions developing an engine for the V8 supercars series but they were being forced to run at a huge power disadvantage which will see them swamped on the straights in today's Townsville 500.


Kelly predicted his Nissan Altima will lose 0.25sec on every lap today.Kelly has spent the last month trying to explain Nissan's horror season to sponsors and fans and has had to admit the team cannot win a race this year.

"We need a miracle to win any race,"Kelly said. "It's a tough situation trying to keep all the sponsors and fans on side when this is the case.It will come to a point where we come to a grinding halt.We can't sustain an uncompetitive team.We need this sorted now."

Kelly says Nissan would be winning races if they were allowed an engine concession similar to the one given to new manufacturer Volvo.We had to get a quad-cam engine with so many differences to the Ford and Holden engines to fit in the same rules and produce the same outcomes.It is impossible.

"We have spent millions on research and development on this engine.We just can't be competitive until we are given a specification that works with this engine."

The Nissan introduced to the sport last year under the car of the future,had to comply with a series of rules and regulations to ensure parity with rival manufacturers.With no V8 version of the Altima on the road,Kelly was forced to use a quad cam engine from a Nissan truck.

"The simple fact is our engine is different to everyone else's,"Kelly said."And it hurt's us because we have to comply with the bore and strokes of the Holden and Ford"

The Altima is regarded as a strong cornering car but has been swamped on the straights.The four Nissan's run by the second year team will lose 0.5sec a lap at Sandown because of a lack of straight line speed.

"We know our car would run better straight away if we had a similar bore and stroke ratio to what another 4 valve engine has got,"Kelly said in an obvious reference to Volvo.

"The only people who think parity is good are up the front,all you have to do is look at the data."We are last at every track on the straights."

"We are good in the corners but stone motherless last on every straight,just watch us get swamped today."

I was at the race yesterday and i must admit the Nissan's are slow down the straight.But having a crack at Volvo is not the way to fix it.There is some good points in what he is saying,but at the same time it sounds like some Kelly bros sooking as well.

[Toxic_Avenger]

IMO, breaking the Holden and Ford monopoly is the best thing to happen to the sport in years.
I haven't been keeping up to speed with the racing as of late, but it's refreshing to see other makes on the track, as opposed to the Red and blue knuckle-draggers of years gone by.
I agree there should be boundaries for engines in these vehicles, but detuning a car to meet the characteristics of the lowest common denominator is not good sport in my eyes. Anyone who remembers the relatively unregulated Group B rally series of the 80's will understand how awesome this could turn out to be.

[Slunnie]

Its fair enough. They need to provide a business model that reflects well on their sponsors, and likewise V8SC need to develop a model that promotes parity. Admittedly, the vast majority of speed is found in drivers and chassis, but 0.25-0.5s per lap is a massive power deficit and a critical performance deficit in such a tight field. V8SC have developed parity through basically making all of the vehicle chassis the same, perhaps they need to further refine 2v vs 4v engine specifications with the Polestar motor being a sample or run a control engine.

[1950landy]

Just another Kelly Brothers winge

[Debacle]

When they were running Holdens they weren't getting much better results. Maybe they have to have a look at their own organisation.

[1950landy]

I bet Red Bull get a fine & not loose the win for the race controller moving the tyre. If it was FPR they would get a drive through.

[Slunnie]

I bet Red Bull get a fine & not loose the win for the race controller moving the tyre. If it was FPR they would get a drive through.
It will be determined by the Stewards based on the specific wording of the rule.

[disco man]

I bet Red Bull get a fine & not loose the win for the race controller moving the tyre. If it was FPR they would get a drive through.

Yep another case of different rules for red bull,looks like jack**** will be done about it

[Bigbjorn]

Remember the First Law of Race Car Preparation, by Smoky Yunick. If the rule book doesn't specifically prohibit it, then it is permitted. The rules didn't say "Smoky, you can't use a 3" frame tube as a fuel pipe". Nor did it say "Smoky, you can't build a 7/8 scale body for better aerodynamics".

[vnx205]

It appears that all the Ford fans here assume that moving a tyre that is no longer attached to the car constitutes working on the car. :D

I wonder if the marshalls will interpret the rule the same way. :D

[Slunnie]

It appears that all the Ford fans here assume that moving a tyre that is no longer attached to the car constitutes working on the car. :D

I wonder if the marshalls will interpret the rule the same way. :D
Yep, I don't think anything will come of it.

[1950landy]

It appears that all the Ford fans here assume that moving a tyre that is no longer attached to the car constitutes working on the car. :D

I wonder if the marshalls will interpret the rule the same way. :D
It's the race controller to tell the tyre guy to move the tyre & not let the cae to go until the tyre is moved

[Slunnie]

It's the race controller to tell the tyre guy to move the tyre & not let the cae to go until the tyre is moved
Thats the definition from FPR. The only relevant definition is in the specific wording of the rule.

[disco man]

Nissan motorsport seem to be running a lot better than Kelly was making out.

[Pickles2]

When they were running Holdens they weren't getting much better results. Maybe they have to have a look at their own organisation.
Never a truer word was spoken.
Pickles.

[Kev the Fridgy]

I think your forgetting the second part of the rule is for the Car Controller to ensure the car and surrounds are safe for the car to be released.... I don't think much will come of it, you could argue that the CC should have instructed one of the Tyre Changers to move it... but yes needs clarifying for future reference.......... and for the record am an FPR fan not a RBR fan........until someone brings Chrysler back at least

[PAT303]

I don't really care to be honest,I lost interest once the cars stopped being touring cars,bring back the '80's. Pat

[Debacle]

Pity Todd Kelly can't get his points tally higher than the number of times he is mentioned in Stewards reports.

[LandyAndy]

The Yellow ones go OK.Surely its just the paintjob thats the difference.Funny thing the slow black ones also share the same driver surname:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
They would be better of playing with thier ski boats:p:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

[ADMIRAL]

IMO, breaking the Holden and Ford monopoly is the best thing to happen to the sport in years.
I haven't been keeping up to speed with the racing as of late, but it's refreshing to see other makes on the track, as opposed to the Red and blue knuckle-draggers of years gone by.
I agree there should be boundaries for engines in these vehicles, but detuning a car to meet the characteristics of the lowest common denominator is not good sport in my eyes. Anyone who remembers the relatively unregulated Group B rally series of the 80's will understand how awesome this could turn out to be.

Yes, but that's what led to them being banned. You don't want the driver & co -driver sitting on top of fuel tanks as per Lancia Delta. Nissan would have gone into this with their eyes open. Bit late to start yelling about having to use a truck motor. Maybe they should go and talk to Dodge. The Viper goes very well with a truck derived motor.

[1950landy]

[/I]

Yes, but that's what led to them being banned. You don't want the driver & co -driver sitting on top of fuel tanks as per Lancia Delta. Nissan would have gone into this with their eyes open. Bit late to start yelling about having to use a truck motor. Maybe they should go and talk to Dodge. The Viper goes very well with a truck derived motor.
Yes &don't stop very well so they would have a reason for running into the back of other drivers

[rick130]

[/I]

Yes, but that's what led to them being banned. You don't want the driver & co -driver sitting on top of fuel tanks as per Lancia Delta. [snip]


Every open wheeler in existence has the fuel cell as the seat !

[AnD3rew]

[/I]
Nissan would have gone into this with their eyes open. Bit late to start yelling about having to use a truck motor.

Absolutely agree, they knew the rules and chose their car before they sunk the millions. No point complaining now that they can't make it competitive.

I don't mind them lobbying for rule changes if they can argue that it will improve the sport but that's different from having a whinge that the world is against them because it doesn't suit them.

And I'm not a Holden or Ford fan particularly, or even of the V8 supercar format, I also loved the touring car format. Some of my favourite racing was the 80's Bathurst days when Walkinshaw was there with his XJSs and the Nissan Skylines etc.

[PAT303]

Every open wheeler in existence has the fuel cell as the seat !

Yep,Rick what do you think of Ric in F1,seems like the real deal,pity that formula has taken the route it has,like V8 supertaxi's it's alienating it's fan base. Pat

[rick130]

Yep,Rick what do you think of Ric in F1,seems like the real deal,pity that formula has taken the route it has,like V8 supertaxi's it's alienating it's fan base. Pat

I'm a little surprised he's taken it to Vettel so well, good on him !

I don't watch F1 anymore, haven't for years.
The only motorsport I have any interest in anymore is MotoGP and Moto3, (Go Jack Miller !) and I think I've only seen one race so far this year !

[gossamer]

Todd's complaint come from how V8 supercars have dictated to them on what they can do with their engine. The engine was originally 5.6 liters and V8 SC have told them they need to run an engine in the following specs
Nissan V8 SC engine 102.6 bore 75.3 stroke
Std VK56 - 98mm bore 92mm stoke
Volvo Polestar V8 - 95.5 bore 87.1 stroke
cant seem to find the specs on the holden, ford or merc engines :(
interestingly the Nissan VK50 has 95.5 bore and 87.7 stroke making it very similar to the Volvo.
so i guess his complaint is legit ????

[uninformed]

Yep,Rick what do you think of Ric in F1,seems like the real deal,pity that formula has taken the route it has,like V8 supertaxi's it's alienating it's fan base. Pat

Im getting hooked on it this season. Every race is a lottery given development and tech problems. Tyres and team tactics are play a big role also.

Ricciardo did 37 laps on one set of tyres to come 3rd at Silverstone.

Speaking of whinging, Vettel was in fine form on the radio racing with Alonso. He is such a tool :D

[ADMIRAL]

Every open wheeler in existence has the fuel cell as the seat !

Except in those days they weren't fuel cells, just a moving bomb.

[PAT303]

Im getting hooked on it this season. Every race is a lottery given development and tech problems. Tyres and team tactics are play a big role also.

Ricciardo did 37 laps on one set of tyres to come 3rd at Silverstone.

Speaking of whinging, Vettel was in fine form on the radio racing with Alonso. He is such a tool :D

Doesn't have the speed of a four time world champion either. Pat

[rick130]

Except in those days they weren't fuel cells, just a moving bomb.


Forgot they didn't have cells back then, God things moved quickly as even Formula Fords had fuel cells by the late eighties.

[disco man]

Todd's complaint come from how V8 supercars have dictated to them on what they can do with their engine. The engine was originally 5.6 liters and V8 SC have told them they need to run an engine in the following specs
Nissan V8 SC engine 102.6 bore 75.3 stroke
Std VK56 - 98mm bore 92mm stoke
Volvo Polestar V8 - 95.5 bore 87.1 stroke
cant seem to find the specs on the holden, ford or merc engines :(
interestingly the Nissan VK50 has 95.5 bore and 87.7 stroke making it very similar to the Volvo.
so i guess his complaint is legit ????

I could be wrong but i think the Volvo started at 4.4L? do you think this is why the bore and stroke ratio given to Volvo is different?

[1950landy]

I believe the engine there using in the Volvo had to be detuned to use in V8 Super car.

[gossamer]

I could be wrong but i think the Volvo started at 4.4L? do you think this is why the bore and stroke ratio given to Volvo is different?

Yep they were 4.4 and upsized. not sure about the detuning but pretty sure the std volvo never had 650 hp. i read a spec from 2012 that said the stroke had to be between 70 something to 70 something (cant find it again) so it makes me wonder if the rules have been changed this year to accommodate the volvo engine?????

[Pickles2]

The difference between the Nissan & the Volvo, and it's a BIG difference, is that the Volvo is much more of a true "Factory" entry than the Nissan which actually has very little input from Nissan, whereas the great majority of the engine work on the Volvo was done by the factory.
Obviously the Nissan is down on power, but I suggest that if the Nissan factory provided as much support as the Volvo factory has, the issue would be fixed.
Pickles.

[disco man]

Not sure how true it is,but i have heard whispers that Toyota and Chrysler might be entering the series in the near future.The V8 used by Toyota is a quad cam and the Chrysler is a Hemi so how would the rules affect these teams if they were to enter?

[Pickles2]

Not sure how true it is,but i have heard whispers that Toyota and Chrysler might be entering the series in the near future.The V8 used by Toyota is a quad cam and the Chrysler is a Hemi so how would the rules affect these teams if they were to enter?
Would be just the same as now, their engines have to be 5L & meet "parity" rules, just as Erebus, Nissan & Volvo do now.
Erebus have their problems at the moment too,...the amount of dollars that Betty's put in would give her nightmares I reckon, & they've still got a way to go,.....if they stay in?
Pickles.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Erebus have their problems at the moment too,...the amount of dollars that Betty's put in would give her nightmares I reckon, & they've still got a way to go,.....if they stay in?
Pickles.
I'd hate to think how much it cost to 'just' sponsor a V8 Supercar.
Operating costs of approx $7M per season according to this (http://www.afr.com/p/lifestyle/sport/the_charitable_side_of_supercar_JR7uG4er5QAkSJyo4e pFUP) :eek:

Imagine what the costs to companies such as jack daniels, jim,beam, redbull, coates hire etc... they'd have to be chipping in a good portion of that as major sponsors.

Why do all the good things in lilfe need to be so expensive :(

[CraigE]

The Kelly boys can bleat all they like, they entered the ****in knowing the requirements. This is to ensure all cars have a chance of competing unlike the older format that had different classes with some cars never going to be competitive. This is really no different to Nascar that run several makes with similar specs.
There has also been reference to rules being altered to suit Red Bull, well that is interpretation and currently nothing in the rules specifies the controller cannot move the tyre, it does state he cannot touch the car or give it any performance increase by doing so. Ford fans obviously have the memories of Goldfish as Red Bull were penalized rather recently when the car controller removed some race tape technically improving the performance. Ford fans also forget the many transgressions FPR and DJR have made and utilizing rules that gave them an unfair advantage eg DJR running a substantially lighter Falcon than production giving them a 300kg advantage over the Commodores, other Falcons running the correct weight and other cars. They however did not breach the rules.

[gossamer]

The Kelly boys can bleat all they like, they entered the ****in knowing the requirements. .

here is the specs from the v8 supercar website in relation to the engine and the rules states that the stroke must be between 75.18mm & 77.22mm

http://v8media.v8superview.com/documents/OpsManual/2014_Div_G_DVS_Update1.pdf

and here is a link to the volvo engine and it states the stroke as 87.1??????
http://www.polestar.com/en-int/2014/hear-the-sound-of-the-new-650-hp-volvo-polestar-racing-v8-engine/

[rick130]

here is the specs from the v8 supercar website in relation to the engine and the rules states that the stroke must be between 75.18mm & 77.22mm

http://v8media.v8superview.com/documents/OpsManual/2014_Div_G_DVS_Update1.pdf

and here is a link to the volvo engine and it states the stroke as 87.1??????
http://www.polestar.com/en-int/2014/hear-the-sound-of-the-new-650-hp-volvo-polestar-racing-v8-engine/

I'm right, right out of the loop these days, but I'd say they (Volvo) are constrained by bore spacing.