A kick in the guts to all of us

[Chucaro]

One of my first workmates back in 1970 was an ex Australian soldier who together with his twin brother fight the Japanese in the second world war.
I still remember very well one afternoon when we were fishing in Sydney middle harbor his pain and wet eyes when he told me about his twin brother body have been eating by the Japanese soldiers.
he was so unforgiven that he never bought a Japanese made good since the war.
I was thinking about him when I saw our Pm said: “We admired the skill and the sense of honour that they brought to their task, although we disagreed with what they did. Perhaps we grasped, even then, that with a change of heart the fiercest of opponents could be the best of friends,”
Canibalism, orture, starvation, murder and forced labour are not an honourable thing in my book.
Just to think about the history of the Kokoda Track (Trail) campaign will make any Australian feel a kick in the guts! :(

[mikehzz]

Mate, it was terrible to be sure, but you have to let things go or you end up as Israel vs Palestine, or Muslims vs Christians....whatever. No race is perfect and for example, you can't blame today's young Germans for Hitler. The only things wrong with present day Japs are that they make pretty ugly under powered cars, build nuclear reactors on fault lines and want to eat endangered sea mammals. No use dredging up a long gone generation's cultural failings. Sorry.

[ramblingboy42]

Thanks for that Arthur, it must have taken a bit of fortitude for you to put that up here.

I , too , have an old friend in Adelaide who was tortured so badly by the japanese he cannot even discuss them.

His home basically has no known japanese items in it.

But its signs of the times that our new (sic) leaders suck up to anyone.

[Chucaro]

Mike, I understand what you are saying but you are not going to say that what the Germans have done was an honorable thing just to compliment them during a free trade agreement.
It was in the pass but was not honorable.

[mikehzz]

Arthur, I think that the Japanese have historically had a massive sense of honour. (I saw it in a Tom Cruise flick "the Last Samurai" :D:D) However their ways were totally barbaric to us. Cheers mate.

[ramblingboy42]

Mate, it was terrible to be sure, but you have to let things go or you end up as Israel vs Palestine, or Muslims vs Christians....whatever. No race is perfect and for example, you can't blame today's young Germans for Hitler. The only things wrong with present day Japs are that they make pretty ugly under powered cars, build nuclear reactors on fault lines and want to eat endangered sea mammals. No use dredging up a long gone generation's cultural failings. Sorry.

Mike, while people are alive who endured the atrocities served to them by these people there is no reason to let things go as you say. It is not dredging , it is , as it should be , empathising and sympathising with those who suffered.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE ANZAC DAY!!!!!

[mikehzz]

.....
THAT'S WHY WE HAVE ANZAC DAY!!!!!

Anzac Day has nothing to do with calling into question the honour of former enemies. It's all about honouring those that served. No one benefits from resurrecting atrocities unless they think that injecting a bit of puss into a festering wound is helpfull. That's straight from the Middle Eastern playbook so bugger that.

[mikehzz]

Hey Sprint, please don't remind me that I'm sort of defending something Abbott has said...**** ME!! I think I just saw a pig fly by...:D

[Hoges]

There is no rest without forgiveness. Many RSL veterans of WWII who fought against the Japanese and/or were POWs and suffered grievously, only found inner peace when they were able to travel to Japan and forgive their enemy...

[rangietragic]

My father fought the japs in new guinea,he was never a fan of theirs.The culture they had in ww2 was barbaric in the extreme.Just ask the chinese in the thirties not to mention our blokes.However,like our ww2 veterans,most of them are now dead,and newer generations are not taught about the war.Japan is now an ally and a friend[as they were in ww1] so we must be cordial to them.However,i still don't trust them.

[bob10]

One of my first workmates back in 1970 was an ex Australian soldier who together with his twin brother fight the Japanese in the second world war.
I still remember very well one afternoon when we were fishing in Sydney middle harbor his pain and wet eyes when he told me about his twin brother body have been eating by the Japanese soldiers.
he was so unforgiven that he never bought a Japanese made good since the war.
I was thinking about him when I saw our Pm said: “We admired the skill and the sense of honour that they brought to their task, although we disagreed with what they did. Perhaps we grasped, even then, that with a change of heart the fiercest of opponents could be the best of friends,”
Canibalism, orture, starvation, murder and forced labour are not an honourable thing in my book.
Just to think about the history of the Kokoda Track (Trail) campaign will make any Australian feel a kick in the guts! :(


A little bit more complicated than that. Two books to read. Kokoda, by Paul Ham, & The Path Of infinite sorrow, by Craig Collie & Hajime Marutani. Yes, all of the above happened. Two different cultures, collided in War. One, steeped in Bushido, the way of the Warrior, the other, memories of Anzac. One, trained to be cruel, the other, barely trained when they met. The saviour of the Aussies, the cruel Owen Stanley Range. The Japanese, at the end of their supply chain, suffering many casualties, the Aussies, short supply chain , receiving reinforcements.


Pushed back over the range, the Japanese , with almost no supplies, resorted to cannibalism, some of them. The Australians, finding some of their dead eaten, hardened their resolve. After that point, not many prisoners were taken. It was the hardest, most difficult sustained campaign of the Pacific War , and yet, the least known. At least, from the Australian perspective.


Where I find it difficult to come to terms with this is,
Sandakan, Changi, Nanjing, burma railway, and others. Not one apology for that, indeed, no Japanese schoolchild is taught any of that. Mr Abbott is putting political ambition ahead of history. I make no judgement. Bob



https://www.google.com.au/search?q=japanese+atrocities+ww2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hba_U4ewGcXqkgX_2ICIBg&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=622

[rangietragic]

Re Abbott,just remember he IS a politician.They are known for suckholing and talking **** when it suits them.They do not think like the rest of us mere mortals.

[Ausfree]

Anyone seen the movie "The Railway Man".? Interesting story of Japanese atrocity and eventual forgiveness, by one of their captives.

Based on a true story and well worth seeing by anyone interested in WW2 history.

[bob10]

Re Abbott,just remember he IS a politician.They are known for suckholing and talking **** when it suits them.They do not think like the rest of us mere mortals.


And you accept that? As our elected representatives? Then it is true. You get the Politicians you deserve. What a lot of rubbish. Bob

[bob10]

Anyone seen the movie "The Railway Man".? Interesting story of Japanese atrocity and eventual forgiveness, by one of their captives.

Based on a true story and well worth seeing by anyone interested in WW2 history.
Yes I've seen it. You know my memory of that movie? When his friend hangs himself off the railway bridge, in England. Remember that bit? Bob

[101RRS]

I don't disagree with the sentiments expressed and I think the PM could have shown a bit better judgement - however his comments were concerning the submarine attack on Sydney - not the way the Japanese conducted the war elsewhere.

Also remember that at the time, when the Japanese were recovered from the sunken submarines our military gave them full military honours and the bodies were sent back to Japan even though it was wartime.

On the broader issue of cruelty in the war - we don't want to talk about the atrocities committed by all sides - the Americans early in the war decided that they would not normally take prisoners as they could not deal with them - we tended to follow suit and despatch prisoners of war soon after they were captured. Not sure of my facts here but I think the Japanese had more Allied prisoners of war than we did of Japanese as we tended to kill them off.

My dad fought at Tarakan and Brunei and in other areas and he told me never to believe stories that it was just the Japanese who committed atrocities as we did as well.

Nevertheless I think the PM could have shown better judgement.

[Ausfree]

Yes I've seen it. You know my memory of that movie? When his friend hangs himself off the railway bridge, in England. Remember that bit? Bob
Sure do!!!

[rangietragic]

And you accept that? As our elected representatives? Then it is true. You get the Politicians you deserve. What a lot of rubbish. Bob
He could have put it better,and no,i don't just accept it.Unfortunately when you vote,you end up with a politician,even if they are a newbie,they all end up as one.:(

[bob10]

we tended to follow suit and despatch prisoners of war soon after they were captured. Not sure of my facts here but I think the Japanese had more Allied prisoners of war than we did of Japanese as we tended to kill them off.


.


The Japanese had the " spirit of Bushido". To be taken prisoner was a disgrace to the Nation, & the family. They committed suicide. The Japanese had more prisoners because they captured them in the beginning, at Singapore, and the Phillipines, when they were ascendant in the War. Afterwards, in Papua, at Buna, Gona, the Japanese ate their own dead, because they were starving. Such is War. The Australians were hardened by war, and gave the Japanese no mercy, That is how Wars are won.


Our Prime Minister has no shame. Bob

[C00P]

I think it was an unfortunate comment and showed poor political judgement. It would have been better to have followed the Basil Fawlty approach ("Don't mention the war").
We are attempting to be friendly with a large number of Asian nations. It isn't good diplomacy to butter up one nation while simultaneously being insensitive to the feelings of others. Many nations were badly hurt by the Japanese during WWII so politicians need to be careful when raising these subjects. If Mr Abbott wanted to discuss the change in our attitude since WWII he could have said something like: "Some of those who fought as enemies in WWII have since found friends among their former foes. Thus we honour those who fought for their respective countries." Or something like that. Saying that we admired their sense of honour when so much happened that wasn't honourable is almost designed to get the hackles up of people who still remember what happened.
This is another of Mr Abbott's bumblings. The one before that was his off-the-cuff comment about the English investing in this "unsettled, or partly settled" country. That comment was guaranteed to insult the indigenous population in Oz. I think his mouth gets ahead of his brain sometimes....

Coop

[Sprint]

His mouth gets ahead of his what????

[C00P]

His mouth gets ahead of his what????

Fair point! :)

[Johnno1969]

I think his mouth gets ahead of his brain sometimes....

Coop

Brain?

[Johnno1969]

His mouth gets ahead of his what????

Ah. I see you got there before me....

[THE BOOGER]

Hands up anybody who thinks Mr Abbott writes his own speeches:angel:

[4range]

it seems to me that some people just like to be 'outraged'. because they believe that they can occupy the high moral ground in an argument & be 'Holier than thou!"

I listened to that part of the PM's speech & believe he referenced specifically the submariners when referring to their honour etc.

I do believe that those servicemen believed they were doing their duty, no less than our servicemen believed they were doing theirs.

Whilst the context might have been slightly out of place, it seems fairly clear to me that the PM made no wider reference to the Japanese armed forces.

However, no matter what I or anyone else says, if you want to be offended, by these words, or anyone else's words, you will look for & probably find something to be offended about.

[JamesB71]

Unfortunately our PM is a weasly lying politician. He has made it quite clear that in the "heat of the battle" he will say anything that is politically expedient and the truth be damned. There are less surviving WW2 Australians and far more asian immigrants to vote, so he just did the math.

Im amazed that a man who publicly admits to lying can still be thought fit to govern a nation. What happened to men of integrity? I lament for what our society has become.

[TheTree]

Hi

It was a very stupid thing so say given the importance of our relationship with China and the history around Nanking, Shanghai etc

Two books iformed me greatly abotu the Japanese in WW2, "Straight Left" by Tom Uren and "Weary Dunlop" the Autobiography of that great man.

Tom Uren talks about how he forgave the Japanese and even met his former gaoler.

Both very inspirational books

Steve

[frantic]

The saying goes, forgive but never forget.
This should have been put into practice with the schooling of Japanese students, just as we have for decades learnt of our wrongs against the indigenous population.

Well most of us, Abbott obviously didn't listen:angel:.

[Bigbjorn]

My great-aunt Maria Christina, had 13 children, 5 girls, 8 boys. All 8 boys enlisted in the Second AIF. One was sent home when his claim to be a labourer was revealed to be a bit of a porky. He was a tool and die maker. Of the seven who served overseas three were on the Burma Railway and one died (was murdered?) there. The two survivors maintained to the end of their days that it was a pity that "the yanks only had two of those bombs". They regarded the Japanese as being outside the protection of law and one should have been able to shoot them on sight.

[Bob Harding]

as a older person mid 70s I will never ever

Find it within myself to forgive and forget

Having seen and met returning prisoners of

War it is just not possible .But the younger

Generations do not have our memory's so can

Do so .Which is most likely how it should be

[Ausfree]

I've mentioned this before on other threads that one of my uncles fought the Japs in New Guinea. He is now 91 and he says he will never ever forgive them.

As for me, I find the average Japanese person that I have met and I do meet plenty of Japanese University students in my job, to be very polite and cause no problems whatsoever.

I think it is time to forgive but not forget the atrocities carried out by the Japanese against our soldiers. We must move on and not get bogged down like they appear to have done in the middle east. Nothing is to be gained by carrying a grudge.

As for Mr Abbott he has said before anything that he says that is not written down cannot be taken as the "Gospel Truth". Therefore he admits he can lie.

[3toes]

Back in the eighties a church elder turned up in a new Honda. Plenty of people questioning how someone who had been a prisoner of the Japanese could do such a thing, His answer was simple. It was a long time ago and as a Christian he had to be able to forgive. We are now almost as far removed again from that statement in time.