Kevin Donnelly has no clue

[Greatsouthernland]

Why this bloke would seek to regress to physical violence when the same act by a parent would be assault.

I know there are some kids that test a teachers resolve, but there are some teachers that aren't fit to teach, so to give them this method where they lack alternative skills, seems ludicrous.

Yes I got the cane at school, once for climbing in a classroom window during lunch time to get one of my toys and once in boarding school for returning about an hour late from a day excursion. Hardly worth a whipin :( imagine what reasons would justify it these days...not listening?


Head of curriculum review Kevin Donnelly says corporal punishment in schools 'was very effective' (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/head-of-curriculum-review-kevin-donnelly-says-corporal-punishment-in-schools-was-very-effective-20140715-3bz7p.html)

[redrovertdi]

Bring back the cane and teach respect for right and wrong, sitting in the naughty corner doesnt work.......

[mikehzz]

I look back on getting the cane at school as more of a badge of honour than as punishment. It's a boy thing. Perhaps more important than is given credit. I'm not into cruelty, but being able to take a hit when you know you have done wrong builds character if done correctly. Unfortunately it's too open to abuse. Not applicable to girls though. That's probably sexist to say, but girls are affected differently.

[bob10]

The cane should be part of the disciplinary system, if only for its deterrent value. Any one who disputes that, is part of the problem, IMO. Bob

[Bigbjorn]

One of my best childhood mates was a cheeky lippy kid. He progressed from the secondary department of his local parish school to a Christian Brothers high school. He apparently back answered or cheeked one of the Brothers and found out why they wore those heavy leather belts around their robes. He was bent over the teacher's desk and flogged until he begged for mercy. Never opened his trap for the next three years, I believe.

[Greatsouthernland]

Fair enough, so the consensus so far is that it's ok.

Then should parents be allowed to do it? Should media abandon the continuous diatribe on a call for restriction on parents to smack their kids? I'm getting mixed signals from the media on discipline and what's 'tolerated'.

Yes the old man gave us kids a smack, but some parents go overboard and perhaps should be reigned in. Where do you draw the line?

[bob10]

Fair enough, so the consensus so far is that it's ok.

Then should parents be allowed to do it? Should we abandon this restriction on parents to smack their kids? I'm getting mixed signals from the media on discipline and what's 'tolerated'.

Yes the old man gave us kids a smack, but some parents go overboard and perhaps should be reigned in. Where do you draw the line?


There is discipline, then there is cruelty. As with corporal punishment at school, at home discipline should come in many forms, with kindness as the common theme. A simple kitchen wooden spoon, shown to the child, can work wonders, without any physical contact. But that must be backed up with love, and an explanation of why the spoon came out. Same with schools, the cane is the last resort, and the strap. The last thing you want to do is take the spirit out of the child. But it should be there, as a warning. Just my opinion, Bob

[UncleHo]

I only got the cane once at Primary School (Qld 1950's)but it became a regular thing at High School, my Principal also the Maths"A" teacher took a dislike to myself and a couple of other boys because we did not try out for RL football,we played tennis but it being a new school lacked a tennis court,when I attended my high school's 50th annirversary celebrations we were informed that it was his ongoing little "Quirk"to dish out the cane to all and sundry.:(

My getting the cane came to an ubrupt halt after he started bringing the cane back up under the upturned hand to hit the knuckles my father saw red,next day he took time off work and took me to school, requested an interview with the principal, and informed him (this I will never forget)if he hit his son on the back of the hand again "He would push said cane up his nose and pull it out via his ear!":eek: I was never hit on the back of either of my hands again.

[Ranga]

Most of my mates would have pleaded for the cane over lunchtime detention or picking up rubbish. Over and done with in seconds, then continue on your day.

Interesting how if we hit one another it's assault, hit you're employee and you're sued, if I hit my wife I'm a ****.

To put it another way - would you accept corporal punishment at adult age for your **** ups?

[Homestar]

Fair enough, so the consensus so far is that it's ok.

Then should parents be allowed to do it? Should we abandon this restriction on parents to smack their kids? I'm getting mixed signals from the media on discipline and what's 'tolerated'.

Yes the old man gave us kids a smack, but some parents go overboard and perhaps should be reigned in. Where do you draw the line?

There's no restrictions or laws preventing parents smacking their children. There are however laws against physically abusing them - 2 very different things, and a concept that a lot of teachers can't get their heads around either.

No issues with corporal punishment. Nothing schools are currently doing seems to work or get the kids to respect one another.

[Ranga]

Nothing schools are currently doing seems to work or get the kids to respect one another.

Is that the school's fault or the parents/guardians?

It reminds me of this quote regarding the USA a bit, "This country has a mental health problem disguised as a gun problem and a tyranny problem disguised as a security problem."

[Greatsouthernland]

There's no restrictions or laws preventing parents smacking their children. There are however laws against physically abusing them - 2 very different things, and a concept that a lot of teachers can't get their heads around either.

No issues with corporal punishment. Nothing schools are currently doing seems to work or get the kids to respect one another.

My apologies there bacicat, I understand it's not forbidden, I meant the media circus calling for it to be banned, I've corrected my post. There is uncertainty on the subject and the media have done a good job creating such, my brother's ex tried to convince a family court judge that he smacked the kids so was an abusive father. The judge asked where he smacked them and it turned out his response was that a smack with the hand below the waist is acceptable in the courts mind.

You make a good point about teachers possibly not getting their heads around the difference, that is my concern entirely. One teacher in particular has already been disciplined for pushing over year 1 students and dragging them along forcibly by their arms, she's a bit short tempered this lady...I'd hate to see what would happen if she had a stick to use :(

[bob10]

Nothing schools are currently doing seems to work or get the kids to respect one another.


Such a sweeping statement. And so wrong. I don't know what schools you are referring to. Could you name them? Bob

[LRO]

The cane should be part of the disciplinary system, if only for its deterrent value. Any one who disputes that, is part of the problem, IMO. Bob


Hi
What problem would that be Bob.

[Chucaro]

I am against the cane and it is very little what the teachers can do if the parents do not do their job.
If the teacher use the cane and she/he done it without be 100% sure that the kid was doing something wrong, that kid will never forget it for the rest of his life.
It will be better that no one teacher put his hand on my grandchildren, he will cope twice hard from me regardless of the consequences :mad:

[LRO]

Hi
x2

[Homestar]

Such a sweeping statement. And so wrong. I don't know what schools you are referring to. Could you name them? Bob

Not wrong from where I stand. I don't need to name any schools now - thankfully my last child has just left the system, but there are plenty I know that are out of control, or pretend to and really don't.

I don't expect everyone's experiences or opinions to be the same as mine, but my statement is correct from where I stand. I'm glad yours is different.

[Greatsouthernland]

The cane should be part of the disciplinary system, if only for its deterrent value. Any one who disputes that, is part of the problem, IMO. Bob

Disagree. Now I'm part of the problem. So what do you do? Cane me? May work in some societies, but I don't think I or many other parents/grand parents will stand for that.

Obviously you have your view Bob, doesn't make those that oppose it a problem (outside of your mind).

I'm not gonna write you off as a narcissist just yet :D

[isuzurover]

Someone needs to alert the young earth creationists. The dinosaurs are certainly alive and mixing with the humans in this thread...

[clubagreenie]

I am against the cane and it is very little what the teachers can do if the parents do not do their job.
If the teacher use the cane and she/he done it without be 100% sure that the kid was doing something wrong, that kid will never forget it for the rest of his life.
It will be better that no one teacher put his hand on my grandchildren, he will cope twice hard from me regardless of the consequences :mad:

What a load of horse ****.

Parents back when the cane was in knew what the discipline was and it backed them up and they backed it up. We knew what was in store for us if we pushed the line.

The "behaviour issues" started once it was stopped and then there was no consequence for actions. This took a while to come full circle where those kids who flaunted the no cane rule became parents and so they had no discipline themselves and so had nothing to pass on and no interest (in fact argue against it) in backing up school discipline.

It's all part of the downfall of installing a work ethic in kids where the 3rd gen of immigrants is the 1st gen that didn't have to work before/after school in the family store etc and were the pampered generation and the first to expect everything to be handed to them.

And before anyone asks I'm well versed at defining between discipline and cruelty.

Example: As a 10yo. I was kicked across the concrete yard for being late home one afternoon. And when I didn't have my bike with me because I was told to get inside and leave it I was kicked back across the yard and road to get it. Bring it home and then it was cut up with the grinder. Then I was taken to with the buckle end of the belt. All while mother looked on.

And years later they can't work out why I don't want anything to do with them or have them involved with my kids.

As for grandkids, you should have a little respect for the parents decisions in this. My inlaws tried to interfere in how they should be disciplined. There's lines that exist between parenting and grandparenting. Not saying you do the wrong thing but They aren't involved in my kids everyday and only see what they want to see, I regularly get **** from them over the way I deal with them. My wife put them in their place over that and I don't deal with them any longer either due to that and I was told that because I was the man I should be working and she should give up her 22 year career to stay home looking after them.

[/rant]

[Spudlynicholas]

I seem to be raising good kids without resorting to beating them. I figure that if a 100kg adult needs to resort to inflicting pain a 30kg child as opposed to providing an example of good behaviour there is probably some work to be done. And that work is likely on the side of the adult.

And if anyone ever decides one day that it is ok to whip my children with a stick, its best you leave the state before I find you.

Just my thoughts.

[DiscoMick]

Caning is unnecessary as there are plenty of other ways to discipline kids, including a whole range of consequences for bad behaviour, I reckon. Actions such as climbing in a wndow, mentioned above, don't deserve caning.
The most extreme consequence is to be kicked out of school. Why should other kids suffer because some brat won't behave sensibly? Attending school is a privilege, not a right. One of the reasons so many parents are choosing to send their kids to non-government schools is that those schools are not afraid to expel problem students, which means other students are safer at school.
Caning can also lead to child abuse and there are inquries right now about that, as we know.
Our kids were not caned and they have turned out just fine.

[weeds]

I seriously doubt it will ever be re-introduced.....nope I will put my left one one it

Yeah I received the cane twice....I just out it down to the good old days

[Saitch]

I am against the cane and it is very little what the teachers can do if the parents do not do their job.
If the teacher use the cane and she/he done it without be 100% sure that the kid was doing something wrong, that kid will never forget it for the rest of his life.
It will be better that no one teacher put his hand on my grandchildren, he will cope twice hard from me regardless of the consequences :mad:
I was fortunate enough to attend a college tended by De La Salle Brothers & the use of a leather strap across the palms was the normal unit of discipline. I definitely copped it once or twice in error but, by crikey, I got away with a **** load gf stuff I should have got it for:D. I wouldn't say that I've been "Scarred" from a bit of physical discipline. I remember that one of the senior students had a stand up slanging match with one of the Brothers which ended with the student & teacher in the school boxing ring. Said student learnt that he wasn't as good as he thought with the gloves.
Steve

[Chucaro]

What a load of horse ****.

Parents back when the cane was in knew what the discipline was and it backed them up and they backed it up. We knew what was in store for us if we pushed the line.

The "behaviour issues" started once it was stopped and then there was no consequence for actions. This took a while to come full circle where those kids who flaunted the no cane rule became parents and so they had no discipline themselves and so had nothing to pass on and no interest (in fact argue against it) in backing up school discipline.

It's all part of the downfall of installing a work ethic in kids where the 3rd gen of immigrants is the 1st gen that didn't have to work before/after school in the family store etc and were the pampered generation and the first to expect everything to be handed to them.

And before anyone asks I'm well versed at defining between discipline and cruelty.

Example: As a 10yo. I was kicked across the concrete yard for being late home one afternoon. And when I didn't have my bike with me because I was told to get inside and leave it I was kicked back across the yard and road to get it. Bring it home and then it was cut up with the grinder. Then I was taken to with the buckle end of the belt. All while mother looked on.

And years later they can't work out why I don't want anything to do with them or have them involved with my kids.

As for grandkids, you should have a little respect for the parents decisions in this. My inlaws tried to interfere in how they should be disciplined. There's lines that exist between parenting and grandparenting. Not saying you do the wrong thing but They aren't involved in my kids everyday and only see what they want to see, I regularly get **** from them over the way I deal with them. My wife put them in their place over that and I don't deal with them any longer either due to that and I was told that because I was the man I should be working and she should give up her 22 year career to stay home looking after them.

[/rant]

Heaps of craps, I have a lot of respect for the parents and they will approve my actions and if there will be a complain will be because I did not invited them to join me.
For your information we do not use a cane with our dogs and we never will allow to use a cane with any member of the family.
If you are proud of the way that your famyly have raise you by being, Quote: kicked across the concrete yard for being late home one afternoon. that is your business.
I, if a see a parent treating his child in that manner I will report it to the authorities and hope that if he/she finish in detention for a day or more, the inmates will give a demo of what is punishment and pain. :mad:

[clubagreenie]

Clearly you failed to read or at least absorb everything I wrote.

The part where I define between punishment and cruelty.
The part where I outlined that I no longer have association with them because of one's action and another's inactions.

As for dogs, where was that bought up?

If only someone like you was around that recognised the difference instead of basically all and sundry of the family I was part of being part of the same system of belief when it came to such things. Because as a kid you should be able to trust someone in your family, instead they drag you back to the scene of the crime where its repeated for raising it.

[Greatsouthernland]

I was fortunate enough to attend a college tended by De La Salle Brothers & the use of a leather strap across the palms was the normal unit of discipline. I definitely copped it once or twice in error but, by crikey, I got away with a **** load gf stuff I should have got it for:D. I wouldn't say that I've been "Scarred" from a bit of physical discipline. I remember that one of the senior students had a stand up slanging match with one of the Brothers which ended with the student & teacher in the school boxing ring. Said student learnt that he wasn't as good as he thought with the gloves.
Steve

And these colleges are institutions of the church, that want us to believe in compassion and fairness :( violence is not the answer etc. that's not all of the damage they did to young boys either - see George Pell.

What a mismatch anyway, he should ask for a rematch now, drag the old fella from the retirement home, that's how stupid the original match was.

Likening fighting to war (yes a long bow to draw), "war doesn't decide who is right or wrong, only who is left". Ancient Chinese proverb I am told :angel:

[Lafia]

I think the cane (or other corporal punishment) is pointless. I copped it a few times in primary school in the 60's in NSW - once I was guilty and once I was an innocent bystander. Both times I felt a lessening of respect for the teacher.
Teachers who are able to gain the respect of students through their mental capacity not their muscle capacity, are the ones I learnt from best.

When I was taking my kids to kindy years ago, I remember the teacher (only two years from retirement) telling me that she can only build on the foundation the kids get from home. Some kids get a pretty raw deal on the home front before they even get started at school, and a lot of that is down to us men not manning up and setting a good example for them.i.e. getting involved with the kids at school, at sport etc.

And then there's the media.....hardly an impartial viewer....only the exceptional incidents are reported and no doubt presented as the norm not the exception. Now there's a good use for the cane.....when reporters are shown to be guilty of promoting sensationalist rubbish....give 'em six of the best! Might sharpen their sense of responsibility somewhat.

Anyway, my two cents worth. I think this Donnelly character is a dinosaur.
Cheers

[bob10]

The cane should be part of the disciplinary system, if only for its deterrent value. Any one who disputes that, is part of the problem, IMO. Bob


Hi
What problem would that be Bob.


Now your making it difficult. The children who fall thru the gaps in our education system, are , from my experience, those from the poor end of town, with one parent, who may or may not, be a drug addict, or alcoholic. If not both parents. Those who can not see this problem, have no contact with these children, or live on the yellow brick road. I have seen a generation of these children, thru my association with junior football .Only a few of the group fit this description. Most of these children have no discipline, or guidance at home, and indeed, are bought up rough. What makes it difficult, is that these rough few are looked up to by the weaker members of the group, and "peer pressure " [ great cop out words] " forces" the weak to follow the strong. If your peers are A grade students, you are lucky. If they are thugs, dealing drugs, breaking into houses, with always a pocket full of money, well, bad luck.


Get these thugs early enough, show them at a young enough age, that there are repercussions for their actions, show the weaker boys [ and that is just about 100% of the gender ] that their heroes have feet of clay, is a start. How do you do that? by " counselling" ? They will laugh in your face. Tough kids need tough love. And then they need to be shown they are loved. And that is the key. Discipline [ the cane, for example] gets their attention. Good old fashioned love, which is what these few, do not get at home, helps break the cycle. I don't mind being called a dinosaur , better than being a new age **** wit, Bob

[mike_beecham]

Working with young people can be extremely difficult, at the best of times. However, if a professional educator needs to resort to violence to reinforce a 'message' then that person is not suited to teaching. End of story.

There are, in 99% of cases, reasons why a young person is misbehaving, being aggressive, abusive etc. THIS is what, as professionals, we focus on. There is no point screaming and yelling at "Billy" to get his **** together, when at home, his mum is on meth and dad is in jail.

We work with kids to support them. This is not easy. It is frustrating. It is cruel at times. It can end badly. But that is what is done.....in schools by teachers every day in this country.

We don't need big sticks.


Michael

[Chucaro]

Working with young people can be extremely difficult, at the best of times. However, if a professional educator needs to resort to violence to reinforce a 'message' then that person is not suited to teaching. End of story.

There are, in 99% of cases, reasons why a young person is misbehaving, being aggressive, abusive etc. THIS is what, as professionals, we focus on. There is no point screaming and yelling at "Billy" to get his **** together, when at home, his mum is on meth and dad is in jail.

We work with kids to support them. This is not easy. It is frustrating. It is cruel at times. It can end badly. But that is what is done.....in schools by teachers every day in this country.

We don't need big sticks.


Michael

I agree with you Michael also I like to add that factors like ADHD and allergies to some foods can bring unwanted behavior in children and not many people know how to diagnostic them or even understand the side effects of these problems.
Cane will be not the answer, that it is for sure.

[bob10]

Working with young people can be extremely difficult, at the best of times. However, if a professional educator needs to resort to violence to reinforce a 'message' then that person is not suited to teaching. End of story.

There are, in 99% of cases, reasons why a young person is misbehaving, being aggressive, abusive etc. THIS is what, as professionals, we focus on. There is no point screaming and yelling at "Billy" to get his **** together, when at home, his mum is on meth and dad is in jail.

We work with kids to support them. This is not easy. It is frustrating. It is cruel at times. It can end badly. But that is what is done.....in schools by teachers every day in this country.

We don't need big sticks.


Michael


I beg to differ. You are blinded by your professional attitude, , but your duty is to not just to teach, but to succour, as a teacher, you sound like you have given up. Your system has let you down. I will not accept your answer, Bob.

[mike_beecham]

Bob
What is my 'professional attitude' exactly?

MB

[bob10]

Bob
What is my 'professional attitude' exactly?

MB


That is what you should tell me, & every parent. Bob

[Chucaro]

That is what you should tell me, & every parent. Bob

Bob, perhaps it is as an example of the excellent education that have my sons in Australia, that have my old granddaughter to be able to be in 3rd year of medicine, perhaps it is the excellent education that are receiving my other 3 grandchildren in primary school, that perhaps it is, the dedication to educate and form children from kindi to year 12.
IMHO teachers can do so much and will be impossible to have a good outcome without the support of the parents.
But I let Michael explain how he see it.

[Meken]

Hitting a child in any way only serves to reinforce in their mind that it is acceptable behaviour to hit others...

[mike_beecham]

My professionalism is always on display, Bob, never fear!

I am simply making clear that to think striking a student because they step out of line, is going to solve their problems is more than short sighted and ill-informed, it border's on the insane.

Certainly we do know that young people learn and are influenced a great deal by what they observe the adults in their lives do.

Bob are you a Series 1 driver by chance?


MB

[akelly]

An adult that hits a child is a coward and an idiot. An adult who says it's OK for an adult to hit a child is a coward and an idiot.

Simple.

[DiscoMick]

Hitting kids just teaches them that it's OK to hit kids.

For example, when a teacher rings the parents because the kid hasn't done the work and is in danger of failing, and the kid comes to school the next day all upset because the father belted him, what has been achieved? Nothing...

[clubagreenie]

Now your making it difficult. The children who fall thru the gaps in our education system, are , from my experience, those from the poor end of town, with one parent, who may or may not, be a drug addict, or alcoholic. If not both parents. Those who can not see this problem, have no contact with these children, or live on the yellow brick road. I have seen a generation of these children, thru my association with junior football .Only a few of the group fit this description. Most of these children have no discipline, or guidance at home, and indeed, are bought up rough. What makes it difficult, is that these rough few are looked up to by the weaker members of the group, and "peer pressure " [ great cop out words] " forces" the weak to follow the strong. If your peers are A grade students, you are lucky. If they are thugs, dealing drugs, breaking into houses, with always a pocket full of money, well, bad luck.


Get these thugs early enough, show them at a young enough age, that there are repercussions for their actions, show the weaker boys [ and that is just about 100% of the gender ] that their heroes have feet of clay, is a start. How do you do that? by " counselling" ? They will laugh in your face. Tough kids need tough love. And then they need to be shown they are loved. And that is the key. Discipline [ the cane, for example] gets their attention. Good old fashioned love, which is what these few, do not get at home, helps break the cycle. I don't mind being called a dinosaur , better than being a new age **** wit, Bob

Exactly part of my point on this and other issues. "Counselling" against actions when dealing with those that this behaviour has been indoctrinated into virtually since birth just doesn't work because the attitude towards those giving the counselling is also indoctrinated.

Question: If the penalty for bank robbery was a good talking to and sit in the corner for 20min there'd be no one here that wouldn't be doing it.

Given that it's some form of incarceration, perform it with weapons and it goes up plus the fact that you may get injured/killed attempting to get away make most of society think twice.

There was a kid I went to school with who (and only 2 or 3 people knew) was a black belt, won multiple int titles in karate and few other disciplines at a very young age. When we got to high school it wasn't the other kids that were an issue but one particular teacher who wasn't fond of his racial background. One day the teacher decided to make it physical. That lasted about 0.5seconds, he simply sat him down, fairly gently and ensured that he wasn't going to attempt retribution immediately and waited for another teacher to arrive. Next day was best day ever as we watched the teacher packing his desk and leave. Followed by a departmental apology given in front of the school at an assembly.

He was disciplined enough to do exactly what was required, yet the teacher tried to blame him for attacking him at random. When they found out what he would have been capable of it was made clear that if that was the case he probably would be able to make a complaint.

Scary thing is these teachers still exist and worse is I've found more of them in private girls schools than any other.

[DiscoMick]

The teacher was stupid to try to make it physical. That just shows that making it physical is a bad idea. The school did the right thing by sacking him - that's just unacceptable behaviour.
In the long run, the best results come from changing the way people think, not by whacking them into submission.

[Pierre]

Rant on


Bob, have a think about 'teach them right from wrong'. Whose responsibility are you intending to make it?


Surely it's the parents' responsibility by example and direction, and even if they abrogate that responsibility, why would you expect a classroom teacher to be the next port of call?


The threat of assault (by cane or hand) is no way to change or improve our society's apparent slide into lawlessness. Your own solution, the involvement of kids in team sport and challenging physical activity, is probably the only way a non-family person can influence any kid for the better.


Every teacher I know, after teaching for many years in the profession, is acutely aware that their standing and reputation is always under the microscope and subject to scrutiny by anyone who wants to have a chop. And most who find the furnace of a modern classroom too hot, leave. So the remainder are even more under the pump! They haven't got the time or inclination to smack or cane or anything else.....and it's not their responsibility to do so, either.


I can also see the team influence of your former service career - mine echoes yours but in the Army.


Parents are the ones to decide about their kids' response to unacceptable behaviour. If they wish to smack their children, they can. Society has decided (and Bob, you are part of it) that others may not hand out corporal punishment to kids. It is viewed as assault.


Rant off.


Cheers, mate


Pete