Another Malaysian plane down ... [Archive] - Australian Land Rover Owners

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Cobber

18th July 2014, 04:47 AM

A flight from Amsterdam to KL has crashed. By all reports, it's been shot down near the Ukraine/Russia border.
295 innocent people caught up in somebody else's dispute :(

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/07/18/02/23/malaysia-airlines-jet-crash-ukraine'mch=mobilenh&mchpost=tabloid

AndyG

18th July 2014, 05:00 AM

That's horrible,:(, but why would you fly near a conflict area.
Just hope no one pops a nuke off.

Poor buggers& their families.

Cobber

18th July 2014, 06:19 AM

Believed to be 27 Australians on board. Some people will be waking up to some terrible news today :(:(

sheerluck

18th July 2014, 06:22 AM

295 lives lost is tragedy enough. Let's hope it doesn't escalate into anything more than that.

And Malaysian was already struggling after MH370 was lost. This may prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back. :(

Pickles2

18th July 2014, 06:53 AM

I heard that there is info that a S.A.M. was involved, & that because of the height that the plane was flying, the missile would have to be "sophisticated"?
Pickles.

ramblingboy42

18th July 2014, 07:07 AM

I wonder why they picked on that one.

There have been lots of other flights through those zones.

It is civilian airspace.

I do feel very much for the relatives and fiends of innocent people though.

wrinklearthur

18th July 2014, 07:15 AM

Sad news indeed.
.

Saitch

18th July 2014, 07:32 AM

Is that the same area as the Korean 747 shot down 20 or so years ago?

Chucaro

18th July 2014, 07:44 AM

Absolutely madness, there are far to many cowers in this world:mad:
My thoughts are with the victims relatives :(

juddy

18th July 2014, 07:45 AM

Very sad news, and yet another blow for MAS.

The FAA issued a warning in April about the situation there, but the warning was not mandatory, and most airlines, other than the US ones continued to use the route.

MH17 was according to flight date shot down not on the planned route over Kiev, but further west.

This will further strain tensions with NATO and the ongoing conflict.

Cobber

18th July 2014, 10:27 AM

This will further strain tensions with NATO and the ongoing conflict.for sure, especially considering how many nationalities were on that flight ...

87County

18th July 2014, 10:38 AM

Is that the same area as the Korean 747 shot down 20 or so years ago?

No, that was half a world away on the eastern side of the then USSR (near Kamchatka) and the US had been provoking them in that and other areas for some time prior - not that it in any way excuses an air-to-air attack on a well lit civvie aircraft, but brinksmanship had been actively pursued and this had somewhat shortened the odds of an tragic error occurring.

Besides the horror/terror of the attack, such incidents like are also unbelievably hard on families of deceased.

Six RPT jets shot down by various militaries since 1973.

MH17 crash: The terrible history of passenger planes getting shot out of the sky (http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-crash-the-terrible-history-of-passenger-planes-getting-shot-out-of-the-sky-20140718-zu9zd.html)

In this case Malaysian had chosen to fly (albeit legally) where others had taken a more prudent approach in avoiding the area. MH had probably done this for economic (short-cut fuel saving) reasons over which the US litigation lawyers will no doubt have a field day.

And yes sheerluck, it could well be the end of MH (unless their govt carries it through).

Further to your post Pickles, the reported weapon (Buk) would be horrifically effective on a civilian aircraft.

Continuous-rod warhead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-rod_warhead)

CraigE

18th July 2014, 10:50 AM

Is that the same area as the Korean 747 shot down 20 or so years ago?

No that was over islands closer to Alaska.

CraigE

18th July 2014, 10:58 AM

CraigE

18th July 2014, 11:00 AM

No, that was half a world away on the eastern side of the then USSR (near Kamchatka) and the US had been provoking them in that and other areas for some time prior - not that it in any way excuses an air-to-air attack on a well lit civvie aircraft, but brinksmanship had been actively pursued and this had somewhat shortened the odds of an tragic error occurring.

Besides the horror/terror of the attack, such incidents like these are also unbelievably hard on families of deceased.

Six RPT jets shot down by various militaries since 1973.

MH17 crash: The terrible history of passenger planes getting shot out of the sky (http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-crash-the-terrible-history-of-passenger-planes-getting-shot-out-of-the-sky-20140718-zu9zd.html)

In this case Malaysian had chosen to fly (albeit legally) where others had taken a more prudent approach in avoiding the area. MH had probably done this for economic (short-cut fuel saving) reasons over which the US litigation lawyers will no doubt have a field day.

And yes sheerluck, it could well be the end of MH.

Further to your post Pickles, the reported weapon (Buk) would be horrifically effective on a civilian aircraft.

Continuous-rod warhead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-rod_warhead)

Some airlines had chosen not to use this air space, however there were around 300 civilian airlines in this air space around this time and is a well used main route. In all honesty after the 2 military planes were shoy down this air space should have been closed.

AndyG

18th July 2014, 11:46 AM

The voice transcript shows clearly the pro Russians thought they were shots ting at a military transport.

Shades of USS Vinvennes Iran Air all over again, and that shooter got a medal for that tour of duty.:(, not even a reprimand, let alone a murder charge.

FeatherWeightDriver

18th July 2014, 11:51 AM

The world has gone completely mad :mad::censored:

DiscoMick

18th July 2014, 02:04 PM

I see its officially cleared airspace.
Putin has a lot to answer for for arming the rebels in the Ukraine.
Hope the world gets serious about this.

frantic

18th July 2014, 03:55 PM

BMKal

18th July 2014, 04:04 PM

Unfortunately I doubt the EU will do much as some of their members get roughly 20-30% of their power and/or gas from Russia. Part of which is the reason for this conflict with the main pipeline running through the Ukraine.

Probably right.

And as for the rest of the world, well that would mean the UN taking some definitive action - and we all know the likelihood of that. ;)

So I guess it comes down to the good old US of A and maybe another "coalition of the willing" or something similar - and then all the do-gooders will come out blaming the US and its allies for the world's troubles.

Sound familiar ................

My guess would be that nothing will happen other than a lot more hot air contributing to "global warming". ;)

Chucaro

18th July 2014, 04:48 PM

I see its officially cleared airspace.
Putin has a lot to answer for for arming the rebels in the Ukraine.
Hope the world gets serious about this.

Without defending this criminal act and Putin for provide arms to the separatist there is not much that can be done when USA has provide and continuous provide arms to regimes that are causing lots of deaths.
It appears that there is a recording of a conversation about the plane between a leader of the separatist and a Russian high range military.
It that it is correct chances are that both will finish in a locker or against the wall and the matter will be settle.

Gary S11

18th July 2014, 06:03 PM

My off sider, lost two close friends in the attack. Husband and wife, all of a sudden it brings a war far away close to home :-(

Lionel

18th July 2014, 07:21 PM

Is that the same area as the Korean 747 shot down 20 or so years ago?

No, that was in the Vladivostok region - far eastern Russia, near Sakhalin Island.

Another trigger happy so & so though.

Cheers,

Lionel

sashadidi

19th July 2014, 02:28 AM

Without defending this criminal act and Putin for provide arms to the separatist there is not much that can be done when USA has provide and continuous provide arms to regimes that are causing lots of deaths.
It appears that there is a recording of a conversation about the plane between a leader of the separatist and a Russian high range military.
It that it is correct chances are that both will finish in a locker or against the wall and the matter will be settle.

Chucaro, Its russia and the Ukraine, that recording could be faked easily, I am in russia the russians are saying things like the Ukraine targeted putins plane, its the Uktrainians making the rebels look bad, we need proof but it will be muddied as the rebels control the crash site and the "evidence: is being sent to Moscow.....
Hard to prove its a Ukrainian BUK or a russian one as the fragments ill be the same in a forsenic sense.
If it was a rebel missle is well gone as its mobile and as for your naive(nothing personal here) notion that is it was a rebel they will be caught and punished i will bet you it will never happen at all pubicly. at all human lives are not a prority in this neck of the woods sadly that atate is all powerful
The rebells bragged about shooting down a palne at roughly the same time I sawt he original rusian one which was quickly taken down
here is a link a article about it
Pro-Russian Rebel Commander: 'We Did Warn You (http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-russia-rebel/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link)
I have had contact with Ukrainian refugees from the fighting and its interesting they are all scared but several said those guys fighting are Mafia /drug dealers etcor local warlords and belive or not russian neo nazis, but that makes no difference to their status,also some were families of fighters and being a kiwi apparently saw no reason not to tell me
So its not clear cut but its a mess, you awake nationalists and give them weapons and you reap the consequences...(on both sides)

juddy

19th July 2014, 06:43 AM

I see the Buk launchers have moved back over the boarder. Mr Puntin hiding things again.

Chucaro

19th July 2014, 07:33 AM

Malaysia Airlines MH17: Missile expert arrested near border, Ukraine government says (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-19/ukraine-government-says-missile-expert-arrested-near-border/5608744)

Pickles2

19th July 2014, 07:46 AM

Chucaro

19th July 2014, 08:00 AM

Geez Chuc, ya can't help yaself can you, with your "anti US" phobia,...mate, this has got NOTHING to do with the U.S.
Putin supplied the means here, let's just see what HE does about seeing that some justice is done. If you want my opinion on that, I'd say there's very little chance of that happening.
Pickles.

Perhaps I have expressed myself wrong, it was not my intention to include USA in this case, what I am trying to say is that there is a justified protest about this evil crime but all other crimes that are a result of conntries that provide arms to are covered up.

Regarding these tragic case it is terrible and if you think that I do not have reasons to be upset about how the west looks things on one side only try to find if the reaction of the world was the same when Iran flight 655 was brought down in Iranian air space killing 290 people including 66 children.
Do you think that the US$61.8 million, ($92.9 million today), amounting to $213,103.45 ($320446 today) per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims was enough?

I am not one side in these cases, all are evil, a cower crime and old shoul be treated equal.

I hope that I ma clear.

85 county,, no bite, no troll and will never be in cases like this,it is appalling.
I just try to show the hypocrite attitude of the world politicians that it is all.

85 county

19th July 2014, 08:02 AM

being a kiwi apparently saw no reason not to tell me

Novel Zealnder, Het americanski propaganda. then spit on the ground, gets you out of most potentual sticky situations. Add to that the more or smarter statements made By the NZ goverment as oposed to the condeming and quick statements made by the australian goverment, which just enforces the local view that Ausstlika americanski papetia.

lissen but do not ask, thay still have there 1 in 300

sheerluck

19th July 2014, 08:29 AM

Perhaps I have expressed myself wrong, it was not my intention to include USA in this case, what I am trying to say is that there is a justified protest about this evil crime but all other crimes that are a result of conntries that provide arms to are covered up.

Regarding these tragic case it is terrible and if you think that I do not have reasons to be upset about how the west looks things on one side only try to find if the reaction of the world was the same when Iran flight 655 was brought down in Iranian air space killing 290 people including 66 children.
Do you think that the US$61.8 million, ($92.9 million today), amounting to $213,103.45 ($320446 today) per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims was enough?

I am not one side in these cases, all are evil, a cower crime and old shoul be treated equal.

I hope that I ma clear.

Yes Arthur, I think you have made yourself clear. You didn't intend to bring your anti-US propaganda into a thread concerned with how 298 innocent people have been killed by a rebel regime half a world away from, and unconnected with the US, but whilst you are not intending to bring it up, you thought you would get a dig in about how little compensation was paid in that last unconnected incident.

Yes those 28 Australian families who are missing loved ones will be able mourn more easily tonight with that clarification, thank you.

Chucaro

19th July 2014, 10:10 AM

I have said that it was an evil act, a crime, what more you would like to said?
my first post said: Quote
Absolutely madness, there are far to many cowers in this world
My thoughts are with the victims relatives.

What I saying it is that a crime it is a crime regardless of the nationality, race or religion of the victims and I stand for that.
What i have try to said and appears that people got it wrong it is that all the criminal acts should be treated in an equal manner with justice regardless of how big it is the country,it political ideology, the race or religion of the people and further more regardless of the business interests.

I was reading one interview where an expert was saying that perhaps nothing will happen regardless sanctions to Russia because the commercial interests between countries.
That in my book it is sick, commercial interesst should no be the price of the life losts.

85 county

19th July 2014, 10:19 AM

sort of ends any arguments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g

Offender90

19th July 2014, 02:59 PM

Tragic and sincere thoughts go out to victims, family and friends. Also to the locals having this rained down on them.

Must be Russian backed as the Ukraine dont have any known truck mounted SAMs capable of getting to this height. They may have some shoulder mounted SAMs capable of around 10,000 feet not the 33,000 feet that MH-17 was flying at.

The sad think is the UN and the rest of the worlds governments will be to gutless to take Putin to task if the Russians are responsible. They would know very quickly as there would be multiple US, Chinese, Russian and EU satellites monitoring this area constantly. Do not want to see any war escalate but the world needs to economically cripple Russia if they are responsible, closing all in and out transport, freezing all monies and assets held outside Russia and deporting all Russian nationals. But we know this wont happen as too many high powered investors are tied up in Russia including ex govt officials from many govts. It is sad there will be some token response and then these people will be forgotten.
We do need to remember that this was an act of war against all nations as this was a legitimate civilian aircraft in supposedly safe airspace.

Considering the way this tragic event is being covered by our media, I understand why you would think that.

Fact is however, Ukraine not only has BUK SAMs with an operational ceiling of up to 25 kms (depending on model), but also the infinitely more capable S-300 SAMs (33km ceiling & 300km range). Both are radar guided and truck mounted, so Ukraine is plenty capable of bringing the plane down. Much more so than the separatists in any case, who have only been using heat seeking, shoulder fired SAMs to date (which have an operational ceiling of 3kms).

The first point of debate / investigation should be if the separatists even have a SAM system capable of reaching that height? - which is far from the forgone conclusion that is being presented on the news. Its not helped by the comments of our glorious leader, who hours after the event announced on TV that it is without a doubt the Russian backed separatists who have brought the plane down, and that Russians are the ones who have armed them and should be held responsible.

Sentiment and emotions aside, we don't objectively know what type of SAM was used to bring the plane down. We don't know where the missile came from. All we know with any level of certainty is that it is most likely a Russian made SAM, and we know where the wreckage landed. Unfortunately that is far from conclusive as to who is responsible for shooting the plane down, as all the SAM systems withing the 500km region are Russian made.

There is the "intercepted" phone conversation - where do I begin, the timing and script make it somewhat dubiousd to say the least. Ukranian forces are being ambushed by the rebels left right and centre (so they don't have the information on mass movements of separatist forces), yet they have intercepted a phonecall discusing how separatists brought down the civilian plane, and how there are bodies littered everywhere... I mean who in their right mind would be discussing this on the phone anyway, and not only that, butto be so specific, reiterating all manner of incriminating information several times, as if to make sure it is understood by the lowest common denominator...

In fact it makes such good incriminating evidence, one has to ask if its too good to be true? (Yes, it is if you ask me).

The discussion I've seen on TV, in rough chronological orderm, has been evoilving as follows:

1.) We don't know anything, but the wreckage landed on separatist held teritory
2.) We don't know anything, but if separatists were responsible that would have significant consequences...
3.) Ukraine says separatists brought the plane down...
4.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If separatists brought it down on purpose that would be a war crime and a crime against humanity, if on the other hand separatists brought it down by accident then it would still likely be a war crime, but maybe not a crime against humanity
5.) (We still don't know anything, but...) Separatists may have acquired the capability to shoot the plane down... there was a social media post that they have... oh, but its been taken down
6.) (We still don't know anything, but...) The Russians may have supplied sophisticated weaponry to separatists
7.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If Russians have supplied the weaponry, they should be held responsible...
8.) (We still don't know anything, but...) How shall we punish Putin for supplying the separatists with sophisticated weaponry
9.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If he's responsible, we should block his attendance to the G20...
and so on and so forth.

Listening to the news, I can understand why you feel upset and are ready to call for a lynch mob.

Just remember, we still don't know anything! What's being reported as fact is based on such circumstantial evidence, that I think is crime in itself. Given that public opinion has such a strong influence on the outcome of this conflict, there is a lot at stake for all involved and should be afforded an impartial investigation to establish the facts. Achieving impatiality is a very challenging task in itself, and given the stakes, I strongly fear that the true facts of the case will never come to light.

What has happened is a tragedy, and my thoughts are with the families of the innocent victims, not only Australians, but of all the people on board that plane. However I find it very upsetting to hear reports of the incident presented as a forgone conclusion, because the consequences of said premature judgement may be much worse than the initial incident.

Just my $0.02 worth anyway.

Chucaro

19th July 2014, 03:11 PM

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17: Who is self-styled separatist leader Igor Strelkov? (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/who-is-igor-strelkov/5607872)

Quote:
Self-styled pro-Russian separatist kingpin Igor Strelkov captured the attention of the world today when he appeared to claim responsibility for the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17.

The comments by the top military commander of the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic" suggested the separatists shot down the Malaysia Airlines plane by mistake, believing it was a large Ukrainian army transport plane.

On Thursday a Twitter account for the "Donetsk People's Republic" issued several posts claiming to have seized a missile system from the Ukrainian army.

"@dnrpress: self-propelled Buk surface-to-air missiles systems have been seized by the DNR from (Ukrainian) surface-to-air missile regiment A1402," the Twitter post said.

Military analysts say the Buk medium-range surface-to-air missile is the weapon most likely to have been used to shoot down MH17.
End of quote

So, going by the news it appears that we know the bastard but he have not done it alone. I hope that do not kill him to cover up the others.

Also it appears that Russia did not provided the missile to the separatists, the missile was in custody by the Ukrainian army and seized by the separatist.

What ever it is the result I hope that justice will be done.

Mick_Marsh

19th July 2014, 03:17 PM

Listening to the news, I can understand why you feel upset and are ready to call for a lynch mob.
I'll just get my pitch fork.

As Chucky has linked to, the separatists had taken areas that had installations that could take down the aircraft.
A tragedy.
I doubt airlines will be flying anywhere the area now.

Let's wait for the results of the investigation before we have us a lynchin. Lets not have the knee jerk reaction we always do.

ramblingboy42

19th July 2014, 03:29 PM

I have just read a news article about Australias' pm and Queenslands' premier calling for the Russian Prime Minister to come forward with information about the missile incident.

Our pm and our Queensland premier both have said they don't want Putin here for the G20 summit if he can't give them the answers they want regarding Russia's input into this incident.

the Qld premier said Queenslanders won't want him here either.

I can't remember when I got asked about this....I want Putin here regardless. He is one of the worlds best leaders.

If Putin can't come , neither should Obama. They are each others equal.

85 county

19th July 2014, 03:58 PM

Just my $0.02 worth anyway.

but we do know alot

we know that both Russian sep and Ukrainian forces have BUK systems

We know that the last aircraft shot down was Ukrainian at 6300 meters

We know that there have now been 3 aircraft shot down within a couple of klms of each other.

We know that the Russian sep forces have to Air assets, thus the Ukrainian forces have not deployed there air defense assets

I know that the general chatter in Russia. is NOT who but why, IE it was a stuff up done by 1/2 trained Russian sep forces.

But agree, our pollies jumped the gun

Andrew D

19th July 2014, 04:12 PM

He is one of the worlds best leaders.

At what? Dummy spits and taking his bat and ball home only to come back with a tank.

I guess it's only a matter of time before he is a recipient of the Noble Peace Prize.

He's good at leading his own personal agenda if you ask me.

Regards
Andrew

P.S The Federal Opposition Leader (B Shorten) also thinks and has said Putin should stay put.

Offender90

19th July 2014, 06:11 PM

Here's what I mean by circumstancial evidence...

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17: Who is self-styled separatist leader Igor Strelkov? (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/who-is-igor-strelkov/5607872)

Quote:
Self-styled pro-Russian separatist kingpin Igor Strelkov captured the attention of the world today when he appeared to claim responsibility for the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17.

The comments by the top military commander of the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic" suggested the separatists shot down the Malaysia Airlines plane by mistake, believing it was a large Ukrainian army transport plane.

I haven't seen the exact post, or its translation. Out of curiosity, have you? ... and do you know what it said? Also, do you know when it was posted in relation to the timing of the MH17 crash?

I understand that a Ukrainan Sukhoi Su-25 fighter plane was downed over separatist held territory on the same day. From what I gather (via secondary and tertiary sources), could the post (allegedly by Strelkov) that says "We warned them to stay away from our skies (or words to that effect)" be referring to downing of the fighter plane instead of the MH17?
I don't know

Secondly, for a man allegedly in charge of waging the war against Ukraine, how likely is it that he himself is posting these updates? Are they even authorised by him, or is the page just run by fans? If so, would it not be possible that they saw or heard that a large plane went down somewhere on separatist held territory and assumed they downed another Ukranian plane and boasted about it?

Thirdly, considering the weight placed upon this post by the media and its public relations value to the other side, could the account have been hacked?

My point is there are a lot of questions, and the evidence is at best circumstantial. You wouldn't be able to convict a person of a petty crime based on the level of evidence available, yet our leadership (our ELECTED representatives) are shooting their mouths of proclaiming with certainty they know what happened and who's responsible.

On Thursday a Twitter account for the "Donetsk People's Republic" issued several posts claiming to have seized a missile system from the Ukrainian army.

"@dnrpress: self-propelled Buk surface-to-air missiles systems have been seized by the DNR from (Ukrainian) surface-to-air missile regiment A1402," the Twitter post said.

They may well have captured one, but it is a complex piece of machinery, not a point and shoot system. At least 3 vehicles (and three highly skilled operators) are required to drive it to engage a target. A radar to acquire the target's position, a command vehicle to compute trajectory and assign target to launch vehicle(s) and a launch vehicle to fire the missile.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/535.jpg

It's not a heat seeking, shoulder launched point and shoot system that's been used by the separatists in recent weeeks to bring down a handfuly of other, significantly lower flying Ukranian aircraft.

So not as likely as some would have us believe that the rebels could have brought down the plane. It is possible but is it likely?

It is possible that some of the Ukranian forces trained on the system have defected to the separatist cause, but we haven't heard any reports of that happening. It is possible that Russian soldiers operating in Ukraine could have manned the system pretending to be separatists. That's plausible and even likely, but in either of these scenarios, the operators would have known they were targeting a civilian airplane. Why would they want to bring down a civilian airplane - what do they have to gain?

So was it an accident, or was it shot down on purpose? And if by some unimaginable chance it was shot down on purpose, by whom, and to what end? None of these questions, which a reasonable thinking person with some background knowledge may want to ask, are being asked or answered.

Military analysts say the Buk medium-range surface-to-air missile is the weapon most likely to have been used to shoot down MH17.

I know that's the line that being parroted by the various news media, but what evidence is there to support that conclusion?

Jane's Defence made the statement that it was most likely either a Buk or an S-300. That was based on SAM systems in the area, and those capable of taking down a plane at that height. Both Buk and S-300 SAM systems are unfortunately more than capable. Moreover, they both travel at approximately the same speed, so would be virtually indistinguishable from one another on radar? As far as I'm aware, no fragments of the missile have been recovered from the wreckage. So why is coverage limited to the Buk system?

Well, there was a tweet that separatists took control of such a system, so that fits in much better with the narrative, making it plausible for separatists to be responsible. Second, a Buk has a shorter targeting range (40 km Vs 300km), making it more likely that is was fired from rebel held territory. This further strenthens the narrative. Mind you the narrative may be true, its just that its way too early to be able to reach that conclusion.

There's still no conclusive evedence of what was used to shoot the plane down, while more and more questions that have been completely ignored in preference to the more widely used narrative that it was the rebels, they said so themselves.

End of quote

So, going by the news it appears that we know the bastard but he have not done it alone. I hope that do not kill him to cover up the others.

Also it appears that Russia did not provided the missile to the separatists, the missile was in custody by the Ukrainian army and seized by the separatist.

What ever it is the result I hope that justice will be done.

Chucaro

19th July 2014, 06:57 PM

I understand what you are saying and agree in many points, that it is the reason why I finished my post with:
So, going by the news it appears
And I am saying it because I do not trust the news much, they are bias, sensationalist and morally selectively.
At this stage I do like to say more, it appears that my posts are taken as cheap political opportunism and that is far of my intention an my values.
I do not blame anyone, it is that I do not have the ability to put my thinking in a correct way.
My sincerely apologies to those that without intention I have offended.
Lets stop any kind of political speculation about this terrible tragic and reflect in the unnecessary lost of life, a result of the madness in human society..

CraigE

19th July 2014, 07:34 PM

Hey if it is the Ukrainians no different need to be taken to task, My understanding was the Ukraine did not have BUKs but if they have fine. At present looks more like Russia. I also understood that the Ukraine did not have any heavy armaments in this area and it was occupied by Ukrainian Sepratists and Russian Military. Latest video shows one of these heading back into Russia minus 2 missiles.
The thing to remember is Putin started this and once again is all about oil and gas.
That all aside whoever flicked the switch needs to be taken to account.
There are also reliable reports coming out that the sepratists and Russian military are using this equipment while ****ed.
Also as I have said there will be clear footage from various satellites so the reality is the source will already be known. Whether we get the truth or not is a different thing altogether.

Considering the way this tragic event is being covered by our media, I understand why you would think that.

Fact is however, Ukraine not only has BUK SAMs with an operational ceiling of up to 25 kms (depending on model), but also the infinitely more capable S-300 SAMs (33km ceiling & 300km range). Both are radar guided and truck mounted, so Ukraine is plenty capable of bringing the plane down. Much more so than the separatists in any case, who have only been using heat seeking, shoulder fired SAMs to date (which have an operational ceiling of 3kms).

The first point of debate / investigation should be if the separatists even have a SAM system capable of reaching that height? - which is far from the forgone conclusion that is being presented on the news. Its not helped by the comments of our glorious leader, who hours after the event announced on TV that it is without a doubt the Russian backed separatists who have brought the plane down, and that Russians are the ones who have armed them and should be held responsible.

Sentiment and emotions aside, we don't objectively know what type of SAM was used to bring the plane down. We don't know where the missile came from. All we know with any level of certainty is that it is most likely a Russian made SAM, and we know where the wreckage landed. Unfortunately that is far from conclusive as to who is responsible for shooting the plane down, as all the SAM systems withing the 500km region are Russian made.

There is the "intercepted" phone conversation - where do I begin, the timing and script make it somewhat dubiousd to say the least. Ukranian forces are being ambushed by the rebels left right and centre (so they don't have the information on mass movements of separatist forces), yet they have intercepted a phonecall discusing how separatists brought down the civilian plane, and how there are bodies littered everywhere... I mean who in their right mind would be discussing this on the phone anyway, and not only that, butto be so specific, reiterating all manner of incriminating information several times, as if to make sure it is understood by the lowest common denominator...

In fact it makes such good incriminating evidence, one has to ask if its too good to be true? (Yes, it is if you ask me).

The discussion I've seen on TV, in rough chronological orderm, has been evoilving as follows:

1.) We don't know anything, but the wreckage landed on separatist held teritory
2.) We don't know anything, but if separatists were responsible that would have significant consequences...
3.) Ukraine says separatists brought the plane down...
4.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If separatists brought it down on purpose that would be a war crime and a crime against humanity, if on the other hand separatists brought it down by accident then it would still likely be a war crime, but maybe not a crime against humanity
5.) (We still don't know anything, but...) Separatists may have acquired the capability to shoot the plane down... there was a social media post that they have... oh, but its been taken down
6.) (We still don't know anything, but...) The Russians may have supplied sophisticated weaponry to separatists
7.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If Russians have supplied the weaponry, they should be held responsible...
8.) (We still don't know anything, but...) How shall we punish Putin for supplying the separatists with sophisticated weaponry
9.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If he's responsible, we should block his attendance to the G20...
and so on and so forth.

Listening to the news, I can understand why you feel upset and are ready to call for a lynch mob.

Just remember, we still don't know anything! What's being reported as fact is based on such circumstantial evidence, that I think is crime in itself. Given that public opinion has such a strong influence on the outcome of this conflict, there is a lot at stake for all involved and should be afforded an impartial investigation to establish the facts. Achieving impatiality is a very challenging task in itself, and given the stakes, I strongly fear that the true facts of the case will never come to light.

What has happened is a tragedy, and my thoughts are with the families of the innocent victims, not only Australians, but of all the people on board that plane. However I find it very upsetting to hear reports of the incident presented as a forgone conclusion, because the consequences of said premature judgement may be much worse than the initial incident.

Just my $0.02 worth anyway.

LandyAndy

19th July 2014, 07:41 PM

No doubt Team America will be more than happy to show who is at fault,and their sattelites will have it all documented.
Andrew

sheerluck

19th July 2014, 07:43 PM

I understand what you are saying and agree in many points, that it is the reason why I finished my post with:
So, going by the news it appears
And I am saying it because I do not trust the news much, they are bias, sensationalist and morally selectively...

Well said.

It is difficult to filter out the bull**** and propaganda from the genuine and unbiased news reporting. How truthful those videos and intercepts that the Ukrainian authorities are we have no way of knowing half a world away.

Every side has their axe to grind, and a reason to blame each other. There have been 298 casualties so far, and "the truth" was the 299th.

1999td5

19th July 2014, 08:10 PM

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

sheerluck

19th July 2014, 08:13 PM

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

Very sorry to hear that Graeme. My condolences.

Pickles2

19th July 2014, 08:26 PM

How can there possibly be any doubt as to who is responsible?
We have actually heard a tape from identifiable Separatists.. actually claiming credit for downing the plane.
And Putin?...someone said "He is on his last legs",....I don't think so. I don't like the man, I don't trust him, BUT, He is all for Russia,.. & I read that 80% of Russians don't have a problem with him.....and I can understand why they don't.
However, Putin is a powerful man, VERY powerful,...He can easily get to the bottom of what occured (I would suggest He already knows),..Easily. He owes it to the dead, to the World, to stop all the speculation etc etc to say what actually happened,..and if He won't do that, then there is NO WAY He will ever be welcome at G20, or admitted to this Country.
Pickles.

sheerluck

19th July 2014, 08:37 PM

How can there possibly be any doubt as to who is responsible?
We have actually heard a tape from identifiable Separatists.. actually claiming credit for downing the plane......

But have we? How do we know it's not faked? As much as I hate the average conspiracy theory, there is still no verification that it is true.

It was posted on Twitter, and Youtube, neither of which confirms or denies anything.

But anyhow, debating the cause of death of one of our member's relatives seems somewhat insensitive.

Cobber

19th July 2014, 11:15 PM

Very sorry to hear that Graeme. My condolences.i can only echo this. Very sorry to hear the bad news :(

Disco Muppet

19th July 2014, 11:35 PM

i can only echo this. Very sorry to hear the bad news :(

X2. Terrible tragedy.

CraigE

20th July 2014, 12:43 AM

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

Graeme,
Thoughts are with you in this sad time. Nothing we can say will really help. Such a tragic waste by some moron with an itchy finger on the trigger.
Someone needs to be brought to account and for you and all the other families and friends of people on MH-17 I certainly hop this happens regardless of who it was.
Take Care
Craig

Pickles2

20th July 2014, 07:13 AM

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme
Very sorry to hear that. Words are not enough. I'm sure that you have lots of happy memories.
I will be in Church this morning so we will remember you.
Pickles.

ramblingboy42

20th July 2014, 07:14 AM

wrinklearthur

20th July 2014, 08:53 AM

I am very uneasy about pointing the finger at anyone, let us wait until there is solid evidence presented before making any more accusations, as this downing of MH-17, could be a double cross setup to fix blame on another side.

The spiriting away of the black box recorders from the crash site must be considered, as the contained information immediately recorded prior to the missile strike would be crucial to the investigation outcome.

It seems from the media reports that I have read, that the cult of the necktie party is still alive and kicking

A good start to helping the families, would be allowing an immediate supply of freezer containers to the crash site to store the remains until they can be properly ( DNA ) identified.

Pickles2

20th July 2014, 11:22 AM

p38arover

20th July 2014, 11:33 AM

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

Sincere condolences, Graeme. I hope that their bodies can be repatriated to Australia to help with closure.

Ron

CraigE

20th July 2014, 12:14 PM

We don't need Putin to tell the world what happened regarding this tragic event.

The world only needs to consult Aulro.

While the rest of the world is waiting for the truth to come out , a number of Aulro members have already released all the evidence and named those responsible.

Well done gentlemen...you could become journalists for the media.....whom many of you readily condemn for their stories.

We are all entitled to our opinion on evidence so far presented and so far that evidence is fairly clear. Certain countries will already know for certain who, where, what and when, that is indisputable. It is a matter of confirming if it was Russian/Ukrainian separatists, Russian Military, Ukrainian Militia or Ukrainian Military. If it is a conspiracy it is a damn good one and certainly unlikely.
For the families of those on the flight it wont make much difference who pulled the trigger unless specifically aligned with one side, which is unlikely, all they will really understand is they have lost loved ones for no valid reason.
The main thing to remember while the Ukraine has been unstable for some time air travel was safe until Russia decided it wants control of the oil and gas reserves. As with most recent conflicts again it is all about commodities.
Just such a senseless waste of life.
We obviously have learnt very little over the last several hundred years and while war monger like Putin, Obama and their cronies exist nothing will change.
While media do get things wrong, most of us rely on this type of reporting to get information. What I have issues with is not media getting and relaying incorrect reports, but sensationalist journalism.
So whats your opinion, maybe Martians? I see it is OK for you to have your opinion on a carbon tax and a flawed one, but no one else is entitled to an opinion on subjects. Please remember it is just opinion at this stage and you along with everyone else is entitled to one, right, wrong or indifferent and all of our rights to express these opinions should be respected whether you agree or not or even have proof to the contrary. The truth is a very subjective thing and your truth amy not be others.

Offender90

20th July 2014, 12:36 PM

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

Words seem inadequate to express the sorrow I feel for your loss Graeme. Please accept my sincerest condolences.

Bojan

Ausfree

20th July 2014, 01:19 PM

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme
I have avoided posting on this Thread because of all the innuendo and supposition and finger pointing by people in authority and those who are just guessing.

However, it hits home when a fellow AULRIAN expresses their loss on that flight. Sincere sympathies Graeme to you and your loved ones.:(

Offender90

20th July 2014, 01:19 PM

We are all entitled to our opinion on evidence so far presented and so far that evidence is fairly clear. Certain countries will already know for certain who, where, what and when, that is indisputable. It is a matter of confirming if it was Russian/Ukrainian separatists, Russian Military, Ukrainian Militia or Ukrainian Military. If it is a conspiracy it is a damn good one and certainly unlikely.
For the families of those on the flight it wont make much difference who pulled the trigger unless specifically aligned with one side, which is unlikely, all they will really understand is they have lost loved ones for no valid reason.
The main thing to remember while the Ukraine has been unstable for some time air travel was safe until Russia decided it wants control of the oil and gas reserves. As with most recent conflicts again it is all about commodities.
Just such a senseless waste of life.
We obviously have learnt very little over the last several hundred years and while war monger like Putin, Obama and their cronies exist nothing will change.
While media do get things wrong, most of us rely on this type of reporting to get information. What I have issues with is not media getting and relaying incorrect reports, but sensationalist journalism.
So whats your opinion, maybe Martians? I see it is OK for you to have your opinion on a carbon tax and a flawed one, but no one else is entitled to an opinion on subjects. Please remember it is just opinion at this stage and you along with everyone else is entitled to one, right, wrong or indifferent and all of our rights to express these opinions should be respected whether you agree or not or even have proof to the contrary. The truth is a very subjective thing and your truth amy not be others.

Agree we are all entitled to an opinion, and it often helps hear the opinions of others in formulating our own. We do this by watching, listening to and reading the news all the time. Problem in my opinion is that the media don't present news in an objective fashion, but frame it in such a way so that the majority of us can only reach one pre-determined conclusion.

You may have heard of a book called "Manufacturing Consent: The political economy of the mass media" by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky. It describes in great detail how media companies shape public opinion to "manufacture" consent for some political outcome which would otherwise be unpopular (such as for example going to war or passing unpopular taxes etc). Very detailed (& somewhat dry) but very eye opening - I'd recommend it to anyone with an interest in the subject. There are also good (and brief!) summaries on Wikipedia and other similar websites.

Getting back to another aspect of your post, I thought I'd ask what you mean by Russia wanting control of oil and gas reserves. The reason I ask is that I'm reasonably sure it's the other way around. I've written a number of posts on here regarding the energy geopolitics in the region, and the challenge to Russian dominance of gas supply to Europe by US interests over the last 20 years.

I find it extremely saddening to see ordinary people suffer for the ambitions of others, and, perhaps naively, hope this incident will not be used as a catalist for even more suffering.

85 county

22nd July 2014, 08:28 PM

from the 9 news website

The downing of the MH17 flight over rebel territory in Ukraine has put Moscow's support of the separatists under more scrutiny than ever amid allegations the plane was blasted out of the sky with a Russian-supplied missile system.
The US, whose relations with Moscow have dropped to a post-Cold War low over the Ukraine crisis, has led the charge.
"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia in the hands of separatists," Secretary of State John Kerry said on Sunday.
But Moscow has denied the allegations, with a senior member of Russia's military general staff, Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov, dismissing images that allegedly show Buk missile systems being transferred from Russia into Ukraine as fake.
"I want to stress that Russia did not give the rebels Buk missile systems or any other kinds of weapons or military hardware," he told reporters on Monday at a briefing, armed with slides, charts and images.
Observers say that separatists fighting Ukrainian troops in the east of the ex-Soviet republic would not be able to do so without support from Moscow.
"Without Russia, the rebels wouldn't have tanks or heavy artillery. The decisions (to supply rebels with weapons) are made at the governmental level," said Alexander Konovalov, president of the Institute of Strategic Assessments.
"This is being done under pressure from political groups that are even more anti-Western than (Russian President Vladimir) Putin is," he added.
The Malaysian plane crash, which killed 298 people flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on Thursday, has increased perceptions of Russia's involvement with the rebels, said Maria Lipman, a political analyst with the Carnegie Moscow Centre.
"Russia has become a participant in the conflict in the eyes of the world, one who can control the rebels and with whom lies responsibility for this tragedy," Lipman said.
The Kremlin has always kept a certain level of official distance from the separatists - Putin has never met with the leaders and did not recognise the independence of the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic" and "Lugansk People's Republic".
Russia even urged the separatists not to hold a referendum on secession from Ukraine - a call they ignored, creating what observers say was an impression of disobeying Moscow's orders.
The Kremlin also snubbed the rebel leaders' calls to absorb Ukraine's separatist eastern regions into Russia and to send in peacekeeping troops when the armed conflict with Kiev intensified.
"It was admitted that Russia is involved in the conflict, but the extent of the involvement was concealed," said Lipman.
"Russia did not hide that consultations were held with rebel leaders, some of whom are also Russian citizens, and are partly financed by Russian businessmen."
Russian newspapers and television channels close to the Kremlin have sided with the pro-Russian rebels since the beginning of their uprising - something they would not have done without Moscow's blessing.
When one of the separatist leaders, Denis Pushilin, claimed in June that he was received by Putin's powerful advisers, Vladislav Surkov and Sergei Glazyev, this was widely reported in the Russian media although not confirmed by the Kremlin.
Russian media has regularly reported on links between businessmen close to the Kremlin and rebel leaders such as the self-appointed prime minister of the Donetsk Republic, Alexander Borodai, and his defence minister Igor Strelkov - both Russian citizens.
Unconfirmed media reports suggested that the rebel leaders are backed by a so-called "party of war" within the Russian leadership - allegedly led by the Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu.
But despite the increased scrutiny, Putin has very limited room for manoeuvre between domestic political pressure and criticism from the United States and Europe, said Lipman.
"He can't give in to the West. Public opinion and apparently political elites expect something else from him - an anti-Western stance and support for pro-Russian rebels," she said.

end

This is the best bit of reporting I have read so far. But it needs context.

in Australia we have a transparent government. At the moment a coalition of different fractions have joined together to form a working relationship to run the country.
Russia is no different with the exception of the transparency. There are and always have been different fractions within Russian politics with different goals. From a return to Stalinist communism to total free market policies. Including every shade in between.

However, although its not transparent Russian politics are predictable.
I have written a number of times that Putin may not be in control of the situation and that other fractions within Russia maybe involved. To me that’s a given.
In the early days of putins first prime ministerShip. One of the things he did was to breakup some rather large private business organizations. We in the west condemned such a move. But I was in Russia at that time and although it grates me I had to agree. a similar sanerio would be if Palmer was to raise his own police force// militia. And was to try and fund an ani Muslim coupe in Indonesia. Some thing we would never see happen in Australian politics ( touch wood) but is basically how a large part of the rest of the world works.

If you do not know your history you do not know squat!!!

The Cuban crisis. The well known story is the soviets put nukes in Cuba bla bla bla.
What is less known in that the USA put nukes ijn Turkey. Thus prompting the soviets to put nukes in Cuba. The cooling down deal was the soviets pull the nukes out. AND that the US would pull nukes out of turkey.

but how did things get so bad so fast. well the key is in the TWO messages sent to JFK, one was what is called the Hard message. the other is called the soft. The hard was written along the lines of all Yanks will die. The soft was the famous, we have tied the knot of war etc etc.

There I have just given two layers of history.
1 USA kicked the soviets out of Cuba.
2 the yanks and soviets both agreed and backed down together.

But there is a third

the whole deal was a set up by Russian influences within the soviet government to bring down Nikita. JFK may have been shot, but nikita's perceived weakness towards the west cost him his job, though he did keep his life.

So how is that applicable to the Ukraine. Well I believe that Putin is between a rock and a hard place. Having got him self reelected ( so you could say) and changed the constitution so he can hang around for 6 years and possible 6 more. There must be some others who crave power ( and or the money that comes with it). Putin’s popularity seems to enforce that the light at the end of the tunnel or end of Putin reign is very far way indeed. So why wait
Cook up a situation where Putin has a choice between total war or backing down. He will of Corse back down, then he will be proclaimed weak and lose his job.

In Light of this Obama is an idiot. Condemning Putin is wreaking him at home, they should be bolstering him up so he can sort out his own nest and then sort out the Ukraine. I say this because I prefer Putin to the Orlarches

85 county

23rd July 2014, 06:04 PM

Seems many Russian people are not so happy with there own governments involvement.

There are photos and statements popping up ( in Russian) then disappearing ( censorship)

The guts is. Rostov, is a small town with a small Kremlin ( quite well restored) and a sort of soviet amusement park beside a lake. I think about 180klm north east from Moscow.

historically it is known as the lake where peter the great built his first ships, to see if he could.

I remember parking up in this soviet amusement park, just down buy the lake. and being not Russian I drove all the way down. Being spring or autumn, the park itself was not operating.
Sitting down with my son who was about 1 at the time for lunch it was quite a nice spot. Not long after a Train ( small kids rides wheels) cam putting down with 3 wagons with seats for say 6 in each. The driver up front and a very FAT woman sitting in the last wagon. a comical site.
Then the Fat thing start yelling that the park is closed and you cant drive down there etc etc. I just ignored her, well because I can and I drive a big black jeep ( 4x4 GW ute) and she is sitting at the end of a kids ride.
10 minutes latter a couple of cops walk close. Obviously sent to kick us out. But then I drove a Bulshoy chornie jeep, so they were being careful. realizing I was not speaking Russian, ( i changed to Thai with my son) they slandered off. Another 10 minutes a suite comes marching down with a news paper under his arm. ( NB the newspaper is an indication of Power, IE the director) but as he got closer he side stepped and pretended to read his paper but with in earshot. 3 minutes he wondered off.

Why mention this, well im trying to explain the redneck heartland mother Russian attitudes to power. I drove a Great wall double cab ute. to an aussie its the second lowest 4x4 on the pride stakes. but to a Russian there. Its a 4x4 and it black and it has tinted windows. That produces some level of fear.

But not every where. but defiantly in Rostov ( NB NOT Rostov on Don) that’s a different place.

Rostov was the assembly point of the masses of untrained soviet solders who counterattacked the Germans at Moscow.

Rostov is surrounded by no go areas

Rostov is where Victor Bout, moved his family to well at least his grandmother, he also kept a home there.

Rostov is where the Ukrainian Russians are being trained.

A pic of me in 2007 about 20 klms north, next village

bob10

23rd July 2014, 07:59 PM

85 county

23rd July 2014, 08:23 PM

Who looted the possessions of the passengers of flight MH 17? Bob

at a gess, the locals who live on about 300 USD a month, or less atm, who have to grow there own potatos and oinons just to live. those with no money to get out and no money to live, those who do not give a dam who the goverment is and just wish that all the guys with guns just go away.

Offender90

23rd July 2014, 08:25 PM

Well, if that is a description of life in Russia, I say keep the missiles pointed at them. Who looted the possessions of the passengers of flight MH 17? Bob

Sky News reporters, according to the footage! :wasntme:

Seems many Russian people are not so happy with there own governments involvement.

As for many people not happy, the most recent Gallup poll of Putin's approval rating (http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx)in Russia would suggest otherwise.

85 county

23rd July 2014, 08:30 PM

Sky News reporters, according to the footage! :wasntme:

As for many people not happy, the most recent Gallup poll of Putin's approval rating (http://www.nbcnews.com/#/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/poll-putins-approval-rating-all-time-high-russia-n161161)in Russia would suggest otherwise.

1 do you beleve in a poll out of russia
2 I said many, i would say middle class, assess to internet and the ablity to post anonomisly, SOP in russia

his strong man suport comes from the bottom of the pile, " the west wants us weak" types and from the very rich who beleve he will make them richer. or atleast maintain the curret situation. if he looks weak the bottm will desert him, if the economy falls the rich will desert him. the midle class is of no threat becouse its to small a group. the poor are jellouse of them and the rich despise them.

sashadidi

24th July 2014, 03:08 AM

Sky News reporters, according to the footage! :wasntme:

As for many people not happy, the most recent Gallup poll of Putin's approval rating (http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx)in Russia would suggest otherwise.
Yes, he is very popular but its a interesting and rather multi layered situation in Russia support wise compared to other countries.
Have a read of this, this article is a fair reflection of my wife's very large middle class extended family here in Russia,their wages have gone up as described in the article but so has inflation and gas prices petrol etc and its better but niggles about corruption are appearing much more as well such as power companies seizing pensioners flats for unpaid power bills, a silly thing to do to the grandma of one of senior commanders of the elite parachute regiment, they can get angry!!!!One family membered retired from the army at 45 with Us$600 (double average wage) per month double the average wages and index linked...... is it sustainable?
Its a complex situation and hard to grasp it all'
I can tell you that Russian TVnews (in russian) would amaze you with some of the stuff that is being said and yes Fox News is bad as well but boy it's amazing sometimes, even Ozzie gets a "not so honorable mention" as well.
Article:

The middle class is the mainstay of Russia's society, as well as the greatest threat to the country's political regime.

Putin Can't Afford His Middle Class Base | Opinion | The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putin-can-t-afford-his-middle-class-base/503118.html)

bob10

24th July 2014, 05:29 PM

at a gess, the locals who live on about 300 USD a month, or less atm, who have to grow there own potatos and oinons just to live. those with no money to get out and no money to live, those who do not give a dam who the goverment is and just wish that all the guys with guns just go away.

Russians are wonderful people, aren't they? They tolerate a society that encourages corruption, from the top down, that has a culture that worships the bully, who struts around like a peacock on steroids, that has a population of cowards, who will not stand up against the bullies, bullies who have been soundly beaten in Afghanistan, and elsewhere, and who rely on Nazi principles to control their country, yet call the Ukranians Neo Nazis.

As with all cowardly bullies, Russia will get its just reward. It will just take a while for the rest of the World to get it's act together. Bob

Offender90

24th July 2014, 07:23 PM

Yes, he is very popular but its a interesting and rather multi layered situation in Russia support wise compared to other countries.
Have a read of this, this article is a fair reflection of my wife's very large middle class extended family here in Russia,their wages have gone up as described in the article but so has inflation and gas prices petrol etc and its better but niggles about corruption are appearing much more as well such as power companies seizing pensioners flats for unpaid power bills, a silly thing to do to the grandma of one of senior commanders of the elite parachute regiment, they can get angry!!!!One family membered retired from the army at 45 with Us$600 (double average wage) per month double the average wages and index linked...... is it sustainable?
Its a complex situation and hard to grasp it all'
I can tell you that Russian TVnews (in russian) would amaze you with some of the stuff that is being said and yes Fox News is bad as well but boy it's amazing sometimes, even Ozzie gets a "not so honorable mention" as well.
Article:

The middle class is the mainstay of Russia's society, as well as the greatest threat to the country's political regime.

Putin Can't Afford His Middle Class Base | Opinion | The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putin-can-t-afford-his-middle-class-base/503118.html)

Very complex indeed, but makes perfect sense for the most part. From the perspective of the Russian middle class, do they have a viable alternative if it goes somehat pear shaped for them? I.e. for it to really be a threat to the political regime, there has to be a viable alternative, and I'm not sure if such an alternative exists.

Of all the post soviet leaders,my understanding is that Putin has been the only one that has to some degree reigned in the oligarchs, while expanding the middle class, (which is a pre-requisite for a functioning democracy as we know it.) Balancing the interests of the oligarchs with those of the state is a tough gig, but once again, he's managed to bring the oligarchs around a common cause. Bring them around with an iron fist (as Berezovsky & Khodorkovsky found out) but bring them around all the same. Not exactly an ideal situation, but much better than was there previously.

In my view, Russia in its current state needs a strong man like Putin to direct the petrowealth into other sector,s to share the prosperity and expand the middle class. Time will tell if it works, but realistically speaking, is there an alternative who you think could steer the oligarchs into nationbuilding pursuits? (I don't know enough, but the little that I do know would suggest the intention is there to rebuild Russia into a better state).

Out of curiosity, what kind of stuff is being said on Russian TV? As for Aussies getting a not so honorable mention, can you blame them. Abbott announced in public that the Russians were responsible for the crash 4 hours after the plane went down... and then tried to defend the statement afterwards!!! #*&@*%!!!

Russians are wonderful people, aren't they? They tolerate a society that encourages corruption, from the top down, that has a culture that worships the bully, who struts around like a peacock on steroids, that has a population of cowards, who will not stand up against the bullies, bullies who have been soundly beaten in Afghanistan, and elsewhere, and who rely on Nazi principles to control their country, yet call the Ukranians Neo Nazis.

As with all cowardly bullies, Russia will get its just reward. It will just take a while for the rest of the World to get it's act together. Bob

Yeah, not taking the bait.

85 county

24th July 2014, 08:06 PM

Very complex indeed, but makes perfect sense for the most part. From the perspective of the Russian middle class, do they have a viable alternative if it goes somehat pear shaped for them? I.e. for it to really be a threat to the political regime, there has to be a viable alternative, and I'm not sure if such an alternative exists. .

very good point and quite correct. but unlike Australia the middle class is quite small or a small percentage of the population. I did read recently the number of 42% Australia is more like 85% i think. BUT the Russian number is Russian produced so i would expect a different set of criteria.
But you still have a country where an on the street cop earns less or about the same as his rent. Odiously to survive this income needs to be supplemented. In short no alternate exists in the short term. the Russian middle class is hoping thing will not change since for them it has never been better.

Of all the post soviet leaders,my understanding is that Putin has been the only one that has to some degree reigned in the oligarchs, while expanding the middle class, (which is a pre-requisite for a functioning democracy as we know it.) Balancing the interests of the oligarchs with those of the state is a tough gig, but once again, he's managed to bring the oligarchs around a common cause. Bring them around with an iron fist (as Berezovsky & Khodorkovsky found out) but bring them around all the same. Not exactly an ideal situation, but much better than was there previously. .

Well the real point is that Putin has been the only leader since the collapse of the CCCP. The rest of your post I agree with.
The not ideal situation is that there are Olarches with there own goals and motivations and that believe they are better stronger than Putin. In a country where the average age for a male is 52, Putin is an old man. Cant last forever, you can sort of see the orlarch vultures circling.

In my view, Russia in its current state needs a strong man like Putin to direct the petrowealth into other sector,s to share the prosperity and expand the middle class. Time will tell if it works, but realistically speaking, is there an alternative who you think could steer the oligarchs into nationbuilding pursuits? (I don't know enough, but the little that I do know would suggest the intention is there to rebuild Russia into a better state). .

Agree, part of the problem is the orlarches are spending there money outside of Russia. Hence Russia put in a pile of laws trying to slow this down. IE it is illegal to travel into or out of Russia with a Visa card. It is illegal to put money on a forran visa card while in Russia. Just the tip of the iceberg.
There has been very little spent in infrastructure in Russia. Sure a newish airport ( forren investment) a lot of shopping centers ( Jewish forren investment) a tunnel that only putting get to use at different times of the day etc. But the highway between Moscow and STP is still crap. Still no trucks are allowed on it in spring time. Hot water is turned off to all apartments for one month of the year etc
My point is every thing that is new is built with money from outside of Russia. Where is the Russian money going? Arms, French ships ( given up on trying to make there own) etc.

Yes they need a strong man like Putin to hold it all together. The Ukraine situation shows that Putin is not as strong as he was. And that’s the problem.

Out of curiosity, what kind of stuff is being said on Russian TV? As for Aussies getting a not so honorable mention, can you blame them. Abbott announced in public that the Russians were responsible for the crash 4 hours after the plane went down... and then tried to defend the statement afterwards!!! #*&@*%!!! .

Well agree Abbot jumped the gun and is leading the charge. BUT as for Russian news. In std soviet reporting style “ whataboutisum is alive and well”
It’s the west’s fault that the plane was shot down. It started off with a load of sifi bullocks but has settled down to it’s the west’s fault for letting the plane fly over. America has blood on its hands and its all there fault. Australia is an americanski puppet,( at least they get something correct).
To sum up Russian reporting

There was a bike / running race/ car race etc. two racers, a Russian and an American. The American won the race

American news. America first we are the greatest we bet the Russians!
Russian news. Great race Russia came second but only because of western influences working against our great Russian hero. America came second to last.

Toxic_Avenger

24th July 2014, 09:10 PM

More news just in. "Flight AH5017: Missing Algeria plane" lost contact around Algeria.

JDNSW

24th July 2014, 09:19 PM

More news just in. "Flight AH5017: Missing Algeria plane" lost contact around Algeria.

Also possibly over another combat area in Mali. (But even without military activity, the accident rate in Africa is more than five times the world average.)

John

wrinklearthur

24th July 2014, 09:20 PM

More news just in. "Flight AH5017: Missing Algeria plane" lost contact around Algeria.

BBC News - LIVE: Flight AH5017: Missing Algeria plane (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28465010)

.

Toxic_Avenger

24th July 2014, 09:28 PM

Current speculation is old plane, poor weather.
Apologies if this is derailing the political ****storm that was brewing previously?

bob10

25th July 2014, 06:24 PM

Yeah, not taking the bait.

Because you have no answer, and you can't handle. the truth.

1. Calls to the phones of the dead have been answered by thieves.
2. Cards & mobile phones looted from the wreckage by Russian backed rebels have been used, & possibly defrauded
3 At least one bereaved relative has been forced to cancel her
dead husbands card, after it was used to in attempted cash withdrawals from Ukraine.
4 A photograph has emerged, showing a ring being taken by a rebel from a body at the crash zone near Donetsk.

Ok they are your people, but you should know what they are like. I don't give out bait, I state facts. You can puff yourself out, like those peacocks, but the World does not fear Russia , Trust me Bob

sashadidi

26th July 2014, 04:18 PM

QUOTE Agree, part of the problem is the orlarches are spending there money outside of Russia. Hence Russia put in a pile of laws trying to slow this down. IE it is illegal to travel into or out of Russia with a Visa card. It is illegal to put money on a forran visa card while in Russia. Just the tip of the iceberg.
There has been very little spent in infrastructure in Russia. Sure a newish airport ( forren investment) a lot of shopping centers ( Jewish forren investment) a tunnel that only putting get to use at different times of the day etc. But the highway between Moscow and STP is still crap. Still no trucks are allowed on it in spring time. Hot water is turned off to all apartments for one month of the year etc
My point is every thing that is new is built with money from outside of Russia. Where is the Russian money going? Arms, French ships ( given up on trying to make there own) etc.
QUOTE

Yes Oligarchs Mikhail Prokhorov was on the TV two weeks ago saying cut free medicine etc......
Capital flight this year in Russia is at a all time high...

85 county

26th July 2014, 04:48 PM

Yes Oligarchs Mikhail Prokhorov was on the TV two weeks ago saying cut free medicine etc......
Capital flight this year in Russia is at a ll time high...[/QUOTE]

yep thay are not dumb. borrow form out side of russia. and hide the profits out side of russia.

the current sangtions have done nothing but to galvanise the russians against the west.

the next round wich will involve banking will have a large impact

sashadidi

26th July 2014, 05:12 PM

Yes Oligarchs Mikhail Prokhorov was on the TV two weeks ago saying cut free medicine etc......
Capital flight this year in Russia is at a ll time high...

yep thay are not dumb. borrow form out side of russia. and hide the profits out side of russia.

the current sangtions have done nothing but to galvanise the russians against the west.

the next round wich will involve banking will have a large impact[/QUOTE]
Yep at least the USA mafia invests in their countries businesses...and do not strip the country dry of assets

85 county

26th July 2014, 06:43 PM

how to become an Oligarch

Option one

Become a director of a business.
Sell the assets of that business to another business owned by you and rent the assets back. Use the proceeds from the sale of the assets to invest in another business you own. Use that money you have received to buy all the shares in the business that you are a director of, these shares are now not worth much because the business has no assets.
Now you are the owner of the business you were the director of.

Now borrow s ****load of cash from a western bank and buy the assets back for more than what you sold them for.

Option two

locate a business that is doing really well and that has one owner, or a husband wife owner.
Assess the security around the owner.
Make the owner a lowest offer for his business. If he sells great if not. Shoot him in his drive way preferably in front of his wife. Make sure there is a control shot to the head, preferably from the back of the head so it takes 1/2 his face off

Now make a stupidly low offer for the business to his widow.

Option Three only worked from 1992-1994

flog a police car, strip it and sell the parts back to the cops because the economy is so bad that they cant get parts.
Take that money buy vodka.
Visit your neighbours that work at the local collective truck motor factory. Give them vodka for that worthless share issue peace of paper. Since no one knows what it is actually for its quite easy. they tell everyone else at work that they can get fee vodka for this bit of paper. 2-3 days you will have 60-80% shareholding in this business.

Now tell every employee that they have to have a wage reduction of 5% because that is the new economic system and pocket the money.

Move on to the next factory.

option four

Make friends with a tax department auditor. IE cut a deal. Russian tax laws are so confusing that no one understands them.
tax auditor finds a nice business, audits that business and informs the owner that he has broken some tax laws and that he will be going to jail. then make a sill low offer for that business. Sell it and pay of the tax auditor

option five, only worked 92-95

you are a soviet director of the Russian eastern fishing fleet. You over night become privatised. You sell all the fishing boats to Korea and the Philippians. You take the 23 million from this sale and get out of Russia ASAP. Move to the bright lights of the USA.
12 months latter the FSB ( KGB) catch up with you. You think they are going to do you in! nope if you give them 15 million they will go away. So you give them 15 million and move to Australia. Where you set up a tuna fishing business and make even more money.

Ferret

26th July 2014, 07:09 PM

So who made use of option 5 and is now in the Australian tuna fishing business?

incisor

27th July 2014, 03:53 PM

Busted! MH-17 Was in Fact the 'Lost' Flight MH-370 | Humans Are Free (http://humansarefree.com/2014/07/busted-mh-17-was-in-fact-lost-flight-mh.html'm=0)

sashadidi

27th July 2014, 04:51 PM

how to become an Oligarch

.

Option two

locate a business that is doing really well and that has one owner, or a husband wife owner.
Assess the security around the owner.
Make the owner a lowest offer for his business. If he sells great if not. Shoot him in his drive way preferably in front of his wife. Make sure there is a control shot to the head, preferably from the back of the head so it takes 1/2 his face off

Now make a stupidly low offer for the business to his widow.

I heard a variation of this ( from a moscow homicide detective) regarding protection money for a business involving the Chechen Mafia. Walk into a business , demand 20% of the turnover weekly . a no answer or hesitation and out with the axe, chop the hand off the owner immediately on the spot.....
Only needed ONE time in ONE shop in the whole block....

bob10

27th July 2014, 04:52 PM

Yeah, & cats rule!. pick the Russian rat. Bob

Cats Rule!!! - YouTube

sheerluck

27th July 2014, 04:52 PM

Busted! MH-17 Was in Fact the 'Lost' Flight MH-370 | Humans Are Free (http://humansarefree.com/2014/07/busted-mh-17-was-in-fact-lost-flight-mh.html'm=0)

What an absolute nutjob. "We are talking the world's secret government here....."

Ferret

27th July 2014, 07:30 PM

What an absolute nutjob..."

Did you expect anything different :D. Mike Adams (aka the health ranger from the vaccination thread) is the author of some articles on the recent disappearance of Malaysian planes on that web site.

wrinklearthur

27th July 2014, 10:01 PM

...[bawl]

BMKal

28th July 2014, 07:06 AM

Busted! MH-17 Was in Fact the 'Lost' Flight MH-370 | Humans Are Free (http://humansarefree.com/2014/07/busted-mh-17-was-in-fact-lost-flight-mh.html'm=0)

Been waiting for someone to put forward this theory ............. :o

No doubt there are plenty of nutters out there who will believe it. ;)

ramblingboy42

28th July 2014, 02:23 PM

Been waiting for someone to put forward this theory ............. :o

No doubt there are plenty of nutters out there who will believe it. ;)

you don't believe it?:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o

bob10

29th July 2014, 03:40 PM

Some fact to add to the fantasy, Bob

BBC News - Russia to appeal against $50bn Yukos shareholder payout (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28520892)

bob10

29th July 2014, 03:59 PM

The Russian economy is sliding into recession. Russian businessmen prefer the UK banking system over their own. There will be sanctions placed on Russia. [ although Europe lacks the courage to apply other than token sanctions] A mad man is in control of the Russian government, and the Russians do what any corrupt & morally bankrupt lunatic would do in this situation. Test new nuclear missiles. Nothing to worry about, really, Bob

BBC News - Russia 'violated 1987 nuclear missile treaty', says US (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28538387)

"RUSSIAN SANCTIONS 07:36: BBC Radio 4

The purpose of sanctions is to target the regime and [Russian president] Putin's cronies, not really the Russian people, Malcolm Bracken, analyst at Redmayne Bentley, tells the Today (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z) programme. "The mismatch," he says "Is that Russia needs German money from gas sales even more than Germany needs Russia gas." Germany can get its gas from countries other than Russia, he adds. But Putin can impose far greater economic pain on his people than Angela Merkel can on hers. "

"BANKING ETHICS 07:03: Radio 5 live

Control Risks' Charles Hecker on Wake Up to Money (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0070lr5) pulls together the two big topics of the morning - Russia and banking ethics. He says it's the ethics that attract them: "There is a reason why the British banking sector is by a mile the preferred destination for Russian financial transactions. It's seen as transparent and liquid market that is well regulated and is seen as clean." And they also like the flight time and the restaurants, he says."

Offender90

30th July 2014, 08:38 PM

Because you have no answer, and you can't handle. the truth.

1. Calls to the phones of the dead have been answered by thieves.
2. Cards & mobile phones looted from the wreckage by Russian backed rebels have been used, & possibly defrauded
3 At least one bereaved relative has been forced to cancel her
dead husbands card, after it was used to in attempted cash withdrawals from Ukraine.
4 A photograph has emerged, showing a ring being taken by a rebel from a body at the crash zone near Donetsk.

Ok they are your people, but you should know what they are like. I don't give out bait, I state facts. You can puff yourself out, like those peacocks, but the World does not fear Russia , Trust me Bob

Bob,

If you're not trawling and truly believe in what you're saying that we should hold Russia to account (or more inflammatory words to that effect) all I can say is wake up and think for yourself. Here's an open letter to Obama from a group of retired US intelligence officers (http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/), urging him to release the evidence the US has on the MH17 crash:

Its a long but informative read

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

Executive Summary

U.S.–Russian tensions are building in a precarious way over Ukraine, and we are far from certain that your advisers fully appreciate the danger of escalation. The New York Times and other media outlets are treating sensitive issues in dispute as flat-fact, taking their cue from U.S. government sources.

Twelve days after the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, your administration still has issued no coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible – much less to convincingly support repeated claims that the plane was downed by a Russian-supplied missile in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.

Secretary of State John Kerry addresses reporters on July 23, 2014, in Ramallah, West Bank. (U.S. government photo)

Your administration has not provided any satellite imagery showing that the separatists had such weaponry, and there are several other “dogs that have not barked.” Washington’s credibility, and your own, will continue to erode, should you be unwilling – or unable – to present more tangible evidence behind administration claims. In what follows, we put this in the perspective of former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of 260 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence.

—

We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some of it via “social media.”

As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

Painting Russia Black

We see an eerie resemblance to an earlier exercise in U.S. “public diplomacy” from which valuable lessons can be learned by those more interested in the truth than in exploiting tragic incidents for propaganda advantage. We refer to the behavior of the Reagan administration in the immediate aftermath of the shoot-down of Korean Airlines Flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983. We sketch out below a short summary of that tragic affair, since we suspect you have not been adequately briefed on it. The parallels will be obvious to you.

An advantage of our long tenure as intelligence officers is that we remember what we have witnessed first hand; seldom do we forget key events in which we played an analyst or other role. To put it another way, most of us “know exactly where we were” when a Soviet fighter aircraft shot down Korean Airlines passenger flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983, over 30 years ago. At the time, we were intelligence officers on “active duty.” You were 21; many of those around you today were still younger.

Thus, it seems possible that you may be learning how the KAL007 affair went down, so to speak, for the first time; that you may now become more aware of the serious implications for U.S.-Russian relations regarding how the downing of Flight 17 goes down; and that you will come to see merit in preventing ties with Moscow from falling into a state of complete disrepair. In our view, the strategic danger here dwarfs all other considerations.

Hours after the tragic shoot-down on August 30, 1983, the Reagan administration used its very accomplished propaganda machine to twist the available intelligence on Soviet culpability for the killing of all 269 people aboard KAL007. The airliner was shot down after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated Russia’s airspace over sensitive military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity – a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier – Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire.

The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder (much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan dismissively explained as an “understandable accident”).

To make the very blackest case against Moscow for shooting down the KAL airliner, the Reagan administration suppressed exculpatory evidence from U.S. electronic intercepts. Washington’s mantra became “Moscow’s deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.” (Apparently, not much has changed; Time’s cover this week features “Cold War II” and “Putin’s dangerous game.” The cover story by Simon Shuster, “In Russia, Crime Without Punishment,” would merit an A-plus in William Randolph Hearst’s course “Yellow Journalism 101.”)

When KAL007 was shot down, Alvin A. Snyder, director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, was enlisted in a concerted effort to “heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” as Snyder writes in his 1995 book, “Warriors of Disinformation.”

He and his colleagues also earned an A-plus for bringing the “mainstream media” along. For example, ABC’s Ted Koppel noted with patriotic pride, “This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.”

“Fixing” the Intelligence Around the Policy

“The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” wrote Snyder, adding that the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council on September 6, 1983.

Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.

The intercepts showed that the Soviet fighter pilot believed he was pursuing a U.S. spy aircraft and that he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. Per instructions from ground control, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to order the aircraft to land. The pilot said he fired warning shots, as well. This information “was not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.

It became abundantly clear to Snyder that, in smearing the Soviets, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. In his book, Snyder acknowledged his own role in the deception, but drew a cynical conclusion. He wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.”

The tortured attempts by your administration and stenographers in the media to blame Russia for the downing of Flight 17, together with John Kerry’s unenviable record for credibility, lead us to the reluctant conclusion that the syndrome Snyder describes may also be at work in your own administration; that is, that an ethos of “getting your own lie out first” has replaced “ye shall know the truth.” At a minimum, we believe Secretary Kerry displayed unseemly haste in his determination to be first out of the starting gate.

Both Sides Cannot Be Telling the Truth

We have always taken pride in not shooting from the hip, but rather in doing intelligence analysis that is evidence-based. The evidence released to date does not bear close scrutiny; it does not permit a judgment as to which side is lying about the shoot-down of Flight 17. Our entire professional experience would incline us to suspect the Russians – almost instinctively. Our more recent experience, particularly observing Secretary Kerry injudiciousness in latching onto one spurious report after another as “evidence,” has gone a long way toward balancing our earlier predispositions.

It seems that whenever Kerry does cite supposed “evidence” that can be checked – like the forged anti-Semitic fliers distributed in eastern Ukraine or the photos of alleged Russian special forces soldiers who allegedly slipped into Ukraine – the “proof” goes “poof” as Kerry once said in a different context. Still, these misrepresentations seem small peccadillos compared with bigger whoppers like the claim Kerry made on August 30, 2013, no fewer than 35 times, that “we know” the government of Bashar al-Assad was responsible for the chemical incidents near Damascus nine days before.

On September 3, 2013 – following your decision to call off the attack on Syria in order to await Congressional authorization – Kerry was still pushing for an attack in testimony before a thoroughly sympathetic Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. On the following day Kerry drew highly unusual personal criticism from President Putin, who said: “He is lying, and he knows he is lying. It is sad.”

Equally serious, during the first week of September 2013, as you and President Vladimir Putin were putting the final touches to the deal whereby Syrian chemical weapons would be given up for destruction, John Kerry said something that puzzles us to this day. On September 9, 2013, Kerry was in London, still promoting a U.S. attack on Syria for having crossed the “Red Line” you had set against Syria’s using chemical weapons.

At a formal press conference, Kerry abruptly dismissed the possibility that Bashar al-Assad would ever give up his chemical weapons, saying, “He isn’t about to do that; it can’t be done.” Just a few hours later, the Russians and Syrians announced Syria’s agreement to do precisely what Kerry had ruled out as impossible. You sent him back to Geneva to sign the agreement, and it was formally concluded on September 14.

Regarding the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down of July 17, we believe Kerry has typically rushed to judgment and that his incredible record for credibility poses a huge disadvantage in the diplomatic and propaganda maneuvering vis-a-vis Russia. We suggest you call a halt to this misbegotten “public diplomacy” offensive. If, however, you decide to press on anyway, we suggest you try to find a less tarnished statesman or woman.

A Choice Between Two

If the intelligence on the shoot-down is as weak as it appears judging from the fuzzy scraps that have been released, we strongly suggest you call off the propaganda war and await the findings of those charged with investigating the shoot-down. If, on the other hand, your administration has more concrete, probative intelligence, we strongly suggest that you consider approving it for release, even if there may be some risk of damage to “sources and methods.” Too often this consideration is used to prevent information from entering the public domain where, as in this case, it belongs.

There have been critical junctures in the past in which presidents have recognized the need to waive secrecy in order to show what one might call “a decent respect for the opinions of mankind” or even to justify military action.

As senior CIA veteran Milton Bearden has put it, there are occasions when more damage is done to U.S. national security by “protecting” sources and methods than by revealing them. For instance, Bearden noted that Ronald Reagan exposed a sensitive intelligence source in showing a skeptical world the reason for the U.S. attack on Libya in retaliation for the April 5, 1986 bombing at the La Belle Disco in West Berlin. That bombing killed two U.S. servicemen and a Turkish woman, and injured over 200 people, including 79 U.S. servicemen.

Intercepted messages between Tripoli and agents in Europe made it clear that Libya was behind the attack. Here’s an excerpt: “At 1:30 in the morning one of the acts was carried out with success, without leaving a trace behind.”

Ten days after the bombing the U.S. retaliated, sending over 60 Air Force fighters to strike the Libyan capital of Tripoli and the city of Benghazi. The operation was widely seen as an attempt to kill Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, who survived, but his adopted 15-month-old daughter was killed in the bombing, along with at least 15 other civilians.

Three decades ago, there was more shame attached to the killing of children. As world abhorrence grew after the U.S. bombing strikes, the Reagan administration produced the intercepted, decoded message sent by the Libyan Peoples Bureau in East Berlin acknowledging the “success” of the attack on the disco, and adding the ironically inaccurate boast “without leaving a trace behind.”

The Reagan administration made the decision to give up a highly sensitive intelligence source, its ability to intercept and decipher Libyan communications. But once the rest of the world absorbed this evidence, international grumbling subsided and many considered the retaliation against Tripoli justified.

If You’ve Got the Goods…

If the U.S. has more convincing evidence than what has so far been adduced concerning responsibility for shooting down Flight 17, we believe it would be best to find a way to make that intelligence public – even at the risk of compromising “sources and methods.” Moreover, we suggest you instruct your subordinates not to cheapen U.S. credibility by releasing key information via social media like Twitter and Facebook.

The reputation of the messenger for credibility is also key in this area of “public diplomacy.” As is by now clear to you, in our view Secretary Kerry is more liability than asset in this regard. Similarly, with regard to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, his March 12, 2013 Congressional testimony under oath to what he later admitted were “clearly erroneous” things regarding NSA collection should disqualify him. Clapper should be kept at far remove from the Flight 17 affair.

What is needed, if you’ve got the goods, is an Interagency Intelligence Assessment – the genre used in the past to lay out the intelligence. We are hearing indirectly from some of our former colleagues that what Secretary Kerry is peddling does not square with the real intelligence. Such was the case late last August, when Kerry created a unique vehicle he called a “Government (not Intelligence) Assessment” blaming, with no verifiable evidence, Bashar al-Assad for the chemical attacks near Damascus, as honest intelligence analysts refused to go along and, instead, held their noses.

We believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out. Then, you may be persuaded to take steps to curb the risk that relations with Russia might escalate from “Cold War II” into an armed confrontation. In all candor, we see little reason to believe that Secretary Kerry and your other advisers appreciate the enormity of that danger.

In our most recent (May 4) memorandum (http://consortiumnews.com/2014/05/04/needed-obama-putin-summit-on-ukraine/)to you, Mr. President, we cautioned that if the U.S. wished “to stop a bloody civil war between east and west Ukraine and avert Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine, you may be able to do so before the violence hurtles completely out of control.” On July 18, you joined the top leaders of Germany, France, and Russia in calling for an immediate ceasefire. Most informed observers believe you have it in your power to get Ukrainian leaders to agree. The longer Kiev continues its offensive against separatists in eastern Ukraine, the more such U.S. statements appear hypocritical.

We reiterate our recommendations of May 4, that you remove the seeds of this confrontation by publicly disavowing any wish to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and that you make it clear that you are prepared to meet personally with Russian President Putin without delay to discuss ways to defuse the crisis and recognize the legitimate interests of the various parties. The suggestion of an early summit got extraordinary resonance in controlled and independent Russian media. Not so in “mainstream” media in the U.S. Nor did we hear back from you.

The courtesy of a reply is requested.

Prepared by VIPS Steering Group

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

Edward Loomis, NSA, Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.)

David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)

Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)

Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)

Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret.)

Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)

What I do know is that Russia held a press conference over a week ago, making available "the information they had" on the downing of the plane. press conference on the MH17 downing While I don't know how reliable the information is or what's being omitted from the presentation, the Russians themselves have urged the US to release their satellite data to shed light on what's happened. The events following the press conference are telling:

1.) There's been no official response from the US (or Ukraine) as far as I'm aware,
2.) No documents / satellite imagery has been released by the US
3.) No dialogue between MH17 and Ukranian air traffic control has been made available to date
4.) And the most telling of all, Ukraine has INTENSIFIED attacks on the separatists in the area surrounding the site of the crash, which is PREVENTING the team of international investigators from investigating.

Circumstantially, all of this would suggest they have something to hide. But that's just it, its circumstantial. There are still so many questions that are unanswered on both sides of this, so until a thorough independant investigation is completed, the jury is still out in my view.

Jumping to judgements based on incomplete information (if not outright misinformation) is precisely how wars are started.

Peace out

85 county

31st July 2014, 07:34 AM

The Russian economy is sliding into recession. Russian businessmen prefer the UK banking system over their own. . Test new nuclear missiles. Nothing to worry about, really, Bob

."

Not quite true.
From what i have been told the sanctions in place ATM have don nothing but galvanize the Russians behind Putin. The next round of sanctions which may include the ability of Russian business to access funds over seas may have an impact. But then the Russian government will put some for of local access in place to cover that. in short increasing Russia’s isolation. Based on that you can understand Europe’s apparent lack of effort being put into sanctions. IE unlike America they understand that it will not work.

In reference to the UK banking system, there is some truth in what you say. But think of it this way. Russian business importing funds from other countries is in efect increasing Russia wealth. Money flowing in. Now most of us know basic economics and will have a giggle at this but that is what many Russians believe. Liability means nothing.

Test new nuclear missiles, this is actually something old. But to have the USA roll it out now is in my opinion just to trying to get the US and other public behind it. IE ranking up support which would indicate that the US is preparing to take things further

85 county

31st July 2014, 08:12 AM

open letter to Obama from a group of retired US intelligence officers (http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/),

Thanks for that.

In light of the Iraqi misinformation Game I think the US should be more open. Things are getting way to serious for point scoring and one-upmanship that seems to be going on atm.

Though personally i believe that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Russia is supporting the Russians in the Ukraine and that some of these Russians shot down the Malay plane. i also would like to believe that this was not intentional.

Although i can not in my mind justify the fighting going on i can have some sympathy for the Russians in the Ukraine. We Know that millions of Ukrainians suffered and died under the soviet system, and that the Ukrainian population was replaced by Russians. We also know that these Russians were disadvantaged under Ukrainian rule.
My point is that two wrongs do not make a right. so I have some sympathy for the Russians. How ever i can not condone the violence.

Hard to explain. But although the Russians in the Ukraine are Russian by decent they may align them self’s with being Russian but there home is the Ukraine. No different to Greek’s and Italians in Australia. they may identify them self’s as Australian but are a wear of the family members in the old country and probably travel back often. If Australia was to pass laws that neither Italian or Greek could be taught in Australian schools. Any Greek or Italian Signage would be removed. Any business that used the words Constructions would be delisted. And anyone of Greek or Italian decent could not hold a government job or a council job. That is effectively what happened in the Ukraine. So it is no surprise that there was trouble. And it is no surprise that Russia would not take advantage of this just as the US would take the same advantage if not the same methods.

In regards to access the crash site. My understanding based on the news and Russian news that there was an agreement that access could take place. and that this has not happened because the Ukraine’s have started an offensive close by and thus the Russians have blocked access.
I would sagest that the Russians see this offensive as a breach of the access agreement.

I have also been told, 2 poms who was communicating with and have lived in Rostov on don for close to a decade, have had there visas pulled for that area. so they have had to leave.
a couple of train loads of tanks have rolled into Rostov on don.
Russian media has reported on public evacuations of buildings and shopping centers.

Western media reports artillery being fired from Russia into the Ukraine.

Russian media reports artillery being fired into Russia from the Ukraine.
But with Russian media reports it is not clear if they are defining Russia as Russia or including the Russian occupied part of the Ukraine.

AndyG

31st July 2014, 10:22 AM

The antipathy between the Russians and Ukrainians go back a long long way,
nut the following is a more recent snap shot as t owhy there is no love lost.

Kulak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak)

And if the Germans had been half decent in WWII who knows what have happened with these as allies.

Kulak thing is not dissimilar to the tax the successful until we are are equally poor, and waiting for the next Govt handout, that is currently in vogue.

Pickles2

31st July 2014, 10:27 AM

This is an awful situation, particularly for those people, whose relatives' bodies have not yet been recovered.
I have NO knowledge of what is going on there.
However, I DO believe that Russia is funding the separatists, & so I with my simplistic way of looking at things, believe that Putin, with his massive influence, could do more to organize a safe site, than what He is.
Pickles,

olbod

31st July 2014, 10:32 AM

Way past time putin was put out of the way permanently, one way or the other.

wrinklearthur

31st July 2014, 11:07 AM

Way past time putin was put out of the way permanently, one way or the other.
Have you got his replacement ready?

101RRS

31st July 2014, 11:18 AM

The current Prime Minister Dmitriy Anatolyevich Medvedev (also was the previous President) has a very liberal leaning (at least within the political system) and has a previous record of moderation - mabe not as much as the West would like but very moderate compared to Putin.

However he does not have support within Russia as much as Russia has - I did see some recent stats that showed that if he directly ran against Putin he would only attract about 10% of the vote where Putin is around 70%. I am sure Putin would rig elections if he wanted but currently he is so popular that he doesn't have to.

Garry

Pickles2

31st July 2014, 11:52 AM

Yes, before all this happened, I think I read of a recent survey where Putin had the support of 82% of the population. I don't like the man, but I can understand that level of support, because to the population he appears to be "all for Russia". I've also read that he absolutely "hates the West".
Nevertheless, because of his power & influence, I believe that his promises made to the world, to the effect, "I will do all I can" etc etc etc, are not being met.
I have my view of him, & in view of that view, I am not surprised,...I simply would not trust anything that the man said,...which is being born out by his current "inactivity" in this matter.
Pickles.

AndyG

31st July 2014, 12:51 PM

A mate has a son over there with the AFP, it's a total GF at the site, dont expect closure any time soon i think.

sashadidi

31st July 2014, 04:10 PM

Have you got his replacement ready?

Yes but who be careful what you wish for, the alternatives could be much much worse....

sashadidi

31st July 2014, 04:14 PM

Yes, before all this happened, I think I read of a recent survey where Putin had the support of 82% of the population. I don't like the man, but I can understand that level of support, because to the population he appears to be "all for Russia". I've also read that he absolutely "hates the West".
.
Actually the last election here showed a overall result of 146% of voters. Number 1 in this picture is United russia is which the main support of Putin plus others
I think the 146% was a unintended slip.... :)
Here is a previously posted article that gives a little insight into his apparent popularity.. and he has just tripled the wages of some high up federal employees who will not be discontented even if the economy does bad
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putin-can-t-afford-his-middle-class-base/503118.html

Offender90

31st July 2014, 07:42 PM

Though personally i believe that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Russia is supporting the Russians in the Ukraine and that some of these Russians shot down the Malay plane. i also would like to believe that this was not intentional.

In regards to access the crash site. My understanding based on the news and Russian news that there was an agreement that access could take place. and that this has not happened because the Ukraine’s have started an offensive close by and thus the Russians have blocked access.

While I agree with you that Russia is most likely supporting the separatists with intelligence, equipment, and possibly even bodies on the ground, so to speak, I highly doubt that they had anything to do with the shooting (and this is only my opinion) for several reasons.

The first, and perhaps the most convincing, is the lack of hard evidence being released by the US. Russia in their press conference laid out the facts as they understand them. Their version of the facts has been open to scrutiny for well over a week, and as far as I'm aware, it has not been refuted by the US in that time. What's more, they have acknowledged their awareness of a US spy satellite above Ukraine at the time of the accident. This in itself is not surprising, as the US almost certainly has a geostationary satellite above Ukraine, and would have the documentary evidence on hand. Russia has publicly pleaded with the US to release the satellite data. This would suggest that they are certain they were not responsible for the incident (otherwise why ask). Russia also allege that MH17 deviated approximately 14 kms from its flight path and dropped 2000 feet prior to being shot down (based on the radar data). The plane was under Ukrainian air traffic control at the time, and they have asked for transcripts between the air control tower and the MH17 to be made public (or at least made available to the investigators). This was all during the press conference. Looking at what the US and Ukraine have done since is suggestive (doesn't prove anything, but is suggestive of guilt by omission). The US has ramped up the public relations (aka propaganda) offensive against Russia. Accusations of START II Treaty violation 6 years after the fact. Yukos oil ruling against Russia (the timing of the verdict in a 10 year old case). Essentially piling up as much crap on Russia hoping that most or at least some of it will stick. If you're in the drivers seat in the US, why not just produce the evidence that separatists launched the attack? It's not like you're giving up a highly valuable source. You have a satellite up there. The Ruskies know you have a satellite up there. You want the world to know Ruskies did it. So why not provide the photographs? Where's the harm? Unless they showed something you didn't like.

Ukraine has stepped up the offensive against the rebels in the area where MH17 came down, preventing the investigators from accessing the crash site. Now, I know it may be reported as "Russian separatists blocking or not allowing inspectors access to the site, but if we think about it for just one second, it is blatantly obvious that the Ukranian offensive on separatist areas surrounding the site is the driver behind the lack of access. Ask yourself, why would you do that if you were Ukraine and were innocent? If on the other hand you had something to hide... Well, then the actions make sense. It would also make sense why you wouldn't want to release the air control tower tapes prior to the incident.

Secondly, while the media has spent over a week making a case that it was plausible for rebels to be in possession of a Buk launcher (not even the entire three vehicle system mind you, just the launcher), it has completely ignored the fact that Ukraine has perhaps hundreds of these complete systems, ready to go. To the point where some AULRO members, who got their information from presumably Australian media outlets, got the impression that Ukraine didn't posses the capability to shoot down a plane that high, and came to the conclusion it must have been the Russians. Talk about one sided reporting. According to the Russian press conference a number of these (Ukrainian) systems were active in the area at the time of the incident. It's just an allegation at this stage (supported by aerial imagery from supposedly the Russian defense department), but to the best of my knowledge, this has not been publicly refuted by the US. And the media have just ignored it and instead keep pushing the social media proof narrative that Russia is guilty.

Way past time putin was put out of the way permanently, one way or the other.

Evidentially, some of our own members are ready to form a lynching party. On the basis of what? They're Russians and therefore they're bad? The news told us they're guilty, therefore they must be?

The biggest problem I have with accepting the official version of events is that it's questionable if the separatists even have the means of shooting the plane down in the first place. Even if they did, they certainly have no motive (nothing to gain and everything to lose). The Ruskies may have even assisted in bringing down high altitude Ukrainian planes (and just to be clear, I've not heard or seen evidence to suggest it, but I wouldn't exclude it from the realm of possibility). If they have, it would most certainly have been done by Russian armed forces operating within Eastern Ukraine (rather than handing the equipment over to the separatists)... and there is no way trained military personnel would mistake a Boeing 777 flying at commercial altitude and in the vicinity of commercial routes for a military plane and shoot it down. They also had no motive for such an attack to believe it was done on purpose.

Ukraine on the other hand had both the means and the motive (to frame the separatists).

So I believe more and more not only that it was done by Ukraine, but that it was done with prior knowledge of, (if not outright instruction from) their US advisors, based on who had most to gain from this tragedy.

But it's way too early to tell. It could have been, as you say an accidental shooting down by Russian backed separatists. To quote a friend of mine "that's what happens when you leave highly capable weapon systems in the hands of trained monkeys". And I acknowledge that is a real possibility, and that's why I am of the strong opinion it needs to be investigated thoroughly before any far reaching conclusions are made generally, and public accusations made in particular. (Yes Prime Minister, I'm referring to you).

This is an awful situation, particularly for those people, whose relatives' bodies have not yet been recovered.
I have NO knowledge of what is going on there.
However, I DO believe that Russia is funding the separatists, & so I with my simplistic way of looking at things, believe that Putin, with his massive influence, could do more to organize a safe site, than what He is.
Pickles,

Pickles, as far as I understand, Ukrainian forces are attacking separatist held areas around the site, which is making access unsafe. In order for Putin to use his massive influence, he has 2 options.

1.) To persuade separatists to lay down their weapons and to allow Ukraine to take complete control of the area.
2.) To invade Eastern Ukraine with Russian military and push the Ukrainian forces back far enough to establish a safe perimeter around the crash site.

Obama on the other hand could use his influence over Ukraine to get Ukrainian soldiers to pause the offensive around the crash site (not everywhere in Eastern Ukraine, just around the crash site). Which do you think is easier to achieve - To get one side to give up the territory they're holding, or to get the other side to stop attacking one particular area for a few days or weeks?

With that in mind, if Obama & the US really wanted the investigation to go ahead, why do you think they aren't using their influence in Ukraine, but are instead waging a propaganda war against Russia?

101RRS

31st July 2014, 08:07 PM

Crikey - every post in this thread is like War and Peace - can we start putting in executive summaries at the start.

Garry

wrinklearthur

31st July 2014, 08:26 PM

Spoken by those on the other side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0nuUNQWq-Y
.

85 county

31st July 2014, 11:06 PM

While I agree with you that Russia is most likely supporting the separatists with intelligence, equipment, and possibly even bodies on the ground, so to speak, I highly doubt that they had anything to do with the shooting (and this is only my opinion) for several reasons.

The first, and perhaps the most convincing, is the lack of hard evidence being released by the US. Russia in their press conference laid out the facts as they understand them. Their version of the facts has been open to scrutiny for well over a week, and as far as I'm aware, it has not been refuted by the US in that time. What's more, they have acknowledged their awareness of a US spy satellite above Ukraine at the time of the accident. This in itself is not surprising, as the US almost certainly has a geostationary satellite above Ukraine, and would have the documentary evidence on hand. Russia has publicly pleaded with the US to release the satellite data. This would suggest that they are certain they were not responsible for the incident (otherwise why ask).

Firstly Russia has released no evidence only statements, this amounts to nothing.

There are satellite pictures from a civil satellite, that’s enough.
I can well imagine any pictures from a US military satellite would be claimed as Tainted or photoshoped by the US so the exercise is pointless.

Russia also allege that MH17 deviated approximately 14 kms from its flight path and dropped 2000 feet prior to being shot down (based on the radar data).

14 Klm at 30 000 ft and 550 Knts ground speed is what?? 2% so means nothing

Example, aircraft fly on altimeters, which messer air pressure, as we should all know air pressure is not constant with height from the ground. If it was we would have no weather. NB although radar altimeters are available they are not used in the cruse. So all air craft in the vicinity air flying to the same scale and thus separation is maintained.

The plane was under Ukrainian air traffic control at the time, and they have asked for transcripts between the air control tower and the MH17 to be made public (or at least made available to the investigators).

There may not be any transcripts. The air craft was passing though on a normal flight path and to a flight plan. The only reason for coms would be from the Ukraine for separation or from the aircraft for problems.

This was all during the press conference. Looking at what the US and Ukraine have done since is suggestive (doesn't prove anything, but is suggestive of guilt by omission).

Lack of evidence may just mean there is no evidence, it only means any thing if you wish it to mean something

The US has ramped up the public relations (aka propaganda) offensive against Russia. Accusations of START II Treaty violation 6 years after the fact. Yukos oil ruling against Russia (the timing of the verdict in a 10 year old case). Essentially piling up as much crap on Russia hoping that most or at least some of it will stick.

Agree

If you're in the drivers seat in the US, why not just produce the evidence that separatists launched the attack? It's not like you're giving up a highly valuable source. You have a satellite up there. The Ruskies know you have a satellite up there. You want the world to know Ruskies did it. So why not provide the photographs? Where's the harm? Unless they showed something you didn't like.

But there are photographs. And there is physics. End argument

Ukraine has stepped up the offensive against the rebels in the area where MH17 came down, preventing the investigators from accessing the crash site. Now, I know it may be reported as "Russian separatists blocking or not allowing inspectors access to the site, but if we think about it for just one second, it is blatantly obvious that the Ukranian offensive on separatist areas surrounding the site is the driver behind the lack of access. Ask yourself, why would you do that if you were Ukraine and were innocent? If on the other hand you had something to hide... Well, then the actions make sense. It would also make sense why you wouldn't want to release the air control tower tapes prior to the incident.

You are mixing argument and losing you logic a bit.

The offensive is about 60 klms from the crash site. NB for aussies its hard to explain how small the Ukraine is.
As I have already posted I assume the Russians have blocked access in responce to the offensive. A tit for tat thing. Besides we have aussies on the ground who say it’s the Russians. End of argument

Secondly, while the media has spent over a week making a case that it was plausible for rebels to be in possession of a Buk launcher (not even the entire three vehicle system mind you, just the launcher), it has completely ignored the fact that Ukraine has perhaps hundreds of these complete systems, ready to go. To the point where some AULRO members, who got their information from presumably Australian media outlets, got the impression that Ukraine didn't posses the capability to shoot down a plane that high, and came to the conclusion it must have been the Russians. Talk about one sided reporting. According to the Russian press conference a number of these (Ukrainian) systems were active in the area at the time of the incident. It's just an allegation at this stage (supported by aerial imagery from supposedly the Russian defense department), but to the best of my knowledge, this has not been publicly refuted by the US. And the media have just ignored it and instead keep pushing the social media proof narrative that Russia is guilty.

Russia has already stated that the Ukraine has 27 systems. They should know they made the bloody things.

Now for a bit of logic. Height and range. Since it is known where the aircraft was when it was hit its easy to work out the area it must have been fired from. Rather simple. A2+b2=c2. since the majority of this area was under Russian control.

Second since the Russians have no air assets the Ukrainians had not deployed there air defense systems. But the Ukrainians do have air assets and thus the Russians needed and have used there systems in response.

Sort of ends the argument really

Quote:
Originally Posted by olbod (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/201789-another-malaysian-plane-down-post2195007.html#post2195007)
Way past time putin was put out of the way permanently, one way or the other.

Evidentially, some of our own members are ready to form a lynching party. On the basis of what? They're Russians and therefore they're bad? The news told us they're guilty, therefore they must be?

I am of the opinion, Rather the devil we know sort of thing. We need neither a war with Russia or a Russian civil war. Putin is no angel but he is the best man for the job ATM

The biggest problem I have with accepting the official version of events is that it's questionable if the separatists even have the means of shooting the plane down in the first place. Even if they did, they certainly have no motive (nothing to gain and everything to lose). The Ruskies may have even assisted in bringing down high altitude Ukrainian planes (and just to be clear, I've not heard or seen evidence to suggest it, but I wouldn't exclude it from the realm of possibility). If they have, it would most certainly have been done by Russian armed forces operating within Eastern Ukraine (rather than handing the equipment over to the separatists)... and there is no way trained military personnel would mistake a Boeing 777 flying at commercial altitude and in the vicinity of commercial routes for a military plane and shoot it down. They also had no motive for such an attack to believe it was done on purpose.

As it has been suggested, and as it is generally viewed in Russia, is that the Russians ½ trained in the Ukraine that shoot it down, the original audio tapes have not been counter claimed by the Russians etc. I would say mainland Russian solders would not have mad the same mistake

Ukraine on the other hand had both the means and the motive (to frame the separatists).

Stretching things a bit. Every thing to lose if they got caught. And very little to gain if they didn’t. with or with out air Malays involment this was always going to be a big topic, CCCP vers USA

So I believe more and more not only that it was done by Ukraine, but that it was done with prior knowledge of, (if not outright instruction from) their US advisors, based on who had most to gain from this tragedy.

You assume it was a deliberate action. That puts you in the minority with both sides of the fence.
As I have said it is generally accepted in Russia that the Russians in the Ukraine shot it down. So there automatic response is to blame someone else. Oh but it was 14 klms of it path. OH but it dropped 200 ft before it got shot down. OH but whey was it flying over a war zone. NB prior to this Russia was claiming it was no war zone. Etc etc typical Russian whataboutisum reporting

But it's way too early to tell. It could have been, as you say an accidental shooting down by Russian backed separatists. To quote a friend of mine "that's what happens when you leave highly capable weapon systems in the hands of trained monkeys". And I acknowledge that is a real possibility, and that's why I am of the strong opinion it needs to be investigated thoroughly before any far reaching conclusions are made generally, and public accusations made in particular. (Yes Prime Minister, I'm referring to you).

Agree with the monkeys, agree with the investigation, agree with the prime minister comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickles2 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/201789-another-malaysian-plane-down-post2195002.html#post2195002)
This is an awful situation, particularly for those people, whose relatives' bodies have not yet been recovered.
I have NO knowledge of what is going on there.
However, I DO believe that Russia is funding the separatists, & so I with my simplistic way of looking at things, believe that Putin, with his massive influence, could do more to organize a safe site, than what He is.
Pickles,

Pickles, as far as I understand, Ukrainian forces are attacking separatist held areas around the site, which is making access unsafe. In order for Putin to use his massive influence, he has 2 options.

Wrong 60 klms from the site

1.) To persuade separatists to lay down their weapons and to allow Ukraine to take complete control of the area.
2.) To invade Eastern Ukraine with Russian military and push the Ukrainian forces back far enough to establish a safe perimeter around the crash site.

AGREE

Obama on the other hand could use his influence over Ukraine to get Ukrainian soldiers to pause the offensive around the crash site (not everywhere in Eastern Ukraine, just around the crash site). Which do you think is easier to achieve - To get one side to give up the territory they're holding, or to get the other side to stop attacking one particular area for a few days or weeks?

AGREE

With that in mind, if Obama & the US really wanted the investigation to go ahead, why do you think they aren't using their influence in Ukraine, but are instead waging a propaganda war against Russia?

The same could be said for Putin. If he really wanted the investigation to go ahead.

sashadidi

1st August 2014, 04:04 AM

Regarding the air traffic control line as 85 county says nothing to be seen there.
Here is article ( in Russian but use google Translate
to get a very rough idea) and uses data including from the Russian ministry of defence which shoes flight paths and air traffic control maps and how there were lots of flights that day doing normal stuff.

Ð¥Ð¾Ñ‡Ñƒ ÑÑ‚Ñ€Ð°Ð½Ð½Ð¾Ð³Ð¾ - MH 17 (http://0serg.livejournal.com/146553.html)

The rebels controlled access to the crash site when it happened and did not allow access to it, logic would say that if the Ukrainians did it the rebels would be bending over backwards to get independent investigators in to prove and there fore the Kiev government would have lost so much sympathy and support.
At least one rebel group leader has admitted they had the missile system
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0FS1V920140723?irpc=932
The interview was in Russian as well but the link stopped working.....
We will never get a full air crash investigation now for the families.

Found this on the internet
Peace Plan??

Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine.

The Independent can reveal that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/land-for-gas-secret-german-deal-could-end-ukraine-crisis-9638764.html

Pickles2

1st August 2014, 08:28 AM

Offender.
Like I've said, I don't know much about what's going on.
Yes, I do believe Putin could do more.
HOWEVER, and I don't know what communication there has been between Obama & Putin,...but if Putin were to agree to "pressure" the separatists to a ceasefire, or that the crash site be "made safe" until the investigation is complete, I would pretty much guarantee that Obama would play his part in influencing Ukraine.
SO, couldn't these guys have a conversation with each other, arranging to pressure both sides to make the area safe.
Obama has clearly stated that the site should be "safe" & accessable,...I've not heard the same from Putin.
Pickles.

olbod

1st August 2014, 09:08 AM

My dislike of Putin has nothing to do with the current situation over the crash site or the whole situation in the Ukraine.
As far as that goes, I have no idea or theory about what happened.

Putin was a minor official in the KGB I believe, now he is probably worth millions or more. Good Presidential wages.
He supposedly hates the west, well so do a lot of others.
But I dont think he ever or ever will get over the breakup of the Soviet Union
and would strive to maintain as much influence over his neighbours as can be gained.
Mainly tho I think he has shown that Putin comes first in any plan or negotiation and he is striving to find a way to extend his term at the top.
I bet he has a picture of Stalin somewhere on a wall in his house.
I dont think Russia needs this kind of person pulling their string and he is a festering thorn in the worlds side.
Like the glorious leader in that other shambles.
But with the self proclaimed world policeman buggering everything up to keep itself only safe I dont see it getting better.

Poor old Luis, what a wonderful world.

85 county

1st August 2014, 05:46 PM

Chucaro

1st August 2014, 07:01 PM

sashadidi

2nd August 2014, 02:36 AM

Looks like another way to shift the blame to me but then again I do not have the knowledge to dispute Peter Haisenko and have to go by the old gut feelings................
What are your thoughts ignoring the site where the article it is published?
“Support MH17 Truth”: OSCE Monitors Identify “Shrapnel-Like Holes” indicating Shelling. No Evidence of a Missile Attack. Shot Down by a Military Aircraft? (http://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324) A interesting report for sure and I am also not qualified to judge .
Further to that as a illustration of claim and counter claim on both sides the basis of that report
may be used in this report published in Russia and publicised which says a Ukrainian pilot in a SU25 says he shot down the plane. Article here in Russian , open with google chrome and it will do a rough translation: http://ugnovosti.ru/articles/detail.php?ID=147738
I would say its interesting as if a SU 25 bomber was used as it has a service ceiling apparently of 7000 metres and a operating ceiling of 5000 metres with max weapons and the plane was at 10000 meters plus its a remarkable cannon shell that could reach that far on a upward trajectory ........it could have used a rocket but at the limit of its range. Surely Russian defence radar systems on the border would have monitored its flight path and could confirm this........ So we are in interesting times in the information war.
If I was a rebel and I did not do this I would be all over it and getting a international investigation as the Kiev government would have lost the moral high ground forever and they would be in a great position politically ......

Chucaro

3rd August 2014, 10:11 AM

akelly

3rd August 2014, 11:36 AM

Pure wingnuttery from people who don't know how anti-aircraft weapons function.

sashadidi

3rd August 2014, 04:15 PM

I guess that this it is another interest reading or at the very least to have some opinion from a different source to the media that we can read in Australia

Devils’ Dance on the Malaysian Plane Tragedy (http://www.globalresearch.ca/devils-dance-on-the-malaysian-plane-tragedy/5394621)

A few problems with that article especially about the air traffic control situation that day ( see my link above which includes information from Russian ministry of defense) and that the SU25 cannot go high enough to shoot the aircraft with cannon....
Russia is also silent about its satellite/ radar information as well which should confirm the theory that the Ukrainian SU25 did it...

Chucaro

3rd August 2014, 04:28 PM

I just posted the links to people read what other sources have to said.
It is not that I agree or disagree with the opinions in the links provided or any other source of information that we have. I do not have the knowledge or the final independent final findings to form an opinion.
I do like to speculate which party it is the guilty and think that it will be the best to point the finger to the guilty party once we know more about the tragic event and this is if we get to know it. :(

Cobber

3rd August 2014, 05:45 PM

Pure wingnuttery from people who don't know how anti-aircraft weapons function.back to the subject at hand ;) I tend to agree with this. It's this kind of thing that leads to all out conspiracy theories ...

85 county

3rd August 2014, 06:41 PM

back to the subject at hand ;) I tend to agree with this. It's this kind of thing that leads to all out conspiracy theories ...

People grasping at straws to unexplain the obvious and shift blame, tend to sweep along the idiots with them and then claim “majority rules”

bob10

9th September 2014, 08:20 PM

So they say, Bob
BBC News - MH17 disaster: Russians 'controlled BUK missile system' (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29109398)

bob10

9th September 2014, 08:29 PM

More evidence, Bob

BBC News - MH17 crash: Dutch experts say numerous objects hit plane (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29119024)

mox

9th September 2014, 09:31 PM

The BBC is just one of the Western Mainstream media organisations peddling the story that their governments, especially of the USA, UK and Israel want believed. However, now thanks to alternate sources of information that can readily be examined by anyone can be found on the Internet. Of course it includes conspiracy theories. However, in this case, seems the main sources of false conspiracy theories are those mentioned above.

Is clear to anyone who has been following the issue that MH17 was not shot down by a surface to air missile. Seems an air to air one from a Ukrainian fighter hit one engine and then the cockpit was riddled with bullets. Rebels have no planes. Unclear whether this was a mistake or a "false flag" that went wrong. If so, plane turned round to left and did not crash where planned. Note how black box info and recordings from Ukrainian air traffic control have not been released. Nor has info from US satellite overhead. Lots of indications of a big coverup!

Western MSM has largely ignored intelligence info gathered and supplied by he Russians, which seems a lot more truthful, as are reports on www.pravda.ru (http://www.pravda.ru). Re western based sites which do not support the " official story" that "powers that be " would like believed, probably one of the best is www.globalresearch.ca (http://www.globalresearch.ca).

Principles that were used by Nazis pushing false propaganda have being applied lately in Ukraine. ie If you are going to tell lies, better if they are big ones and also if you repeat the same lies enough, people are likely to eventually believe them.

Re all these Western lies, I came across on another alternate news site tonight a copy of a letter to Vladimir Putin which was drafted by a Dutch professor and signed by a lot of academics and others in the Netherlands. It apologised for the unjust vilification of Russia by their own government and mainstream media.

101RRS

9th September 2014, 09:51 PM

THE BOOGER

9th September 2014, 09:52 PM

:eek::eek::eek::eek: Hmm white man you speak with Russian accent :wasntme:

sam_d

9th September 2014, 10:15 PM

Well, if it's on the internet it's bound to be more reliable than something else from the internet. I'm convinced!

brettphillips43

9th September 2014, 10:34 PM

Gday cobber. Do you listen to TFR?. Bloody brilliant for those that want the truth.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

Ferret

9th September 2014, 10:57 PM

Re all these Western lies, I came across on another alternate news site tonight a copy of a letter to Vladimir Putin which was drafted by a Dutch professor and signed by a lot of academics and others in the Netherlands. It apologised for the unjust vilification of Russia by their own government and mainstream media.

Well, if it's on alternative news sites it must be true. :D

The 'letter' is a petition started by some Dutch mob, Der Ommekeer (http://ommekeer-nederland.nl/brief-met-excuses-aan-president-putin/#english). They carry a disclaimer on their web site which translate from Dutch to English as

Note: This letter is NOT written by Professor Cees Hamelink nor to date signed by him! This letter is copied many times on other web sites that do not have a permission requested. Many of them have professor Cees Hamelink as a writer. We do not have responsibility for and take away.

Links of sites that have taken over our message;

News.nl , BurgerlijkeOngehoorzaamheid wordpress , Zaplog.nl , Twitter , NuJIJ.nl , Futuris Trendcast , NuJIJ.nl . JHaines , NRCOmbudsman , David Icke

Anyway, don't suppose it matters. It's still written by a Dutch Professor and signed by lots of academics when you source your news from alternative news sites and it confirms your bias.

bob10

10th September 2014, 06:19 AM

Please to stop pickink on those poor Ruskie missionaries spreadink the Gospel of fearless leader in Ukraine. Ve know who you are. Boris & Natasha

BORIS & NATASHA - YouTube

mox

10th September 2014, 06:55 AM

Note how immediately after MH17 was shot down there was an outcry blaming the rebels and Russians. If there was evidence to back this up, it obviously would have quickly been given widespread coverage by western mainstream media. When there was none, comments changed to just largely unsubstantiated abuse. Official report just released says plane was shot down by "multiple high speed objects." Consistent with an air to air missile and bullets from a fighter plane. The only fighters around at the time were Ukrainian.

However, the media spin is still beating up probably correct reports of the Russians and rebels having BUK missiles in the area. Intention is to promote belief that one of these shot MH17 down and discourage examination of details of circumstances which indicate it was highly improbable.

Reaction of some people in western countries to reporting of this incident has been of "cognitive dissonance". They refuse to believe the possibility that their own governments would deliberately try to tell them lies.

vnx205

10th September 2014, 07:07 AM

Reaction of some people in western countries to reporting of this incident has been of "cognitive dissonance". They refuse to believe the possibility that their own governments would deliberately try to tell them lies.

Is there an equivalent phrase that can be used to describe people who consistently refuse to believe the possibility that their own government could be telling the truth?

vnx205

10th September 2014, 07:15 AM

... .... ..
Is clear to anyone who has been following the issue on conspiracy sites that rely on speculation and ignore the actual evidence that MH17 was not shot down by a surface to air missile.
FIFY
Seems an air to air one from a Ukrainian fighter hit one engine and then the cockpit was riddled with bullets. Rebels have no planes.Why is this relevant when the evidence shows that the holes were made by shrapnel? Unclear whether this was a mistake or a "false flag" that went wrong. If so, plane turned round to left and did not crash where planned. Note how black box info and recordings from Ukrainian air traffic control have not been released. Nor has info from US satellite overhead. Lots of indications of a big coverup!

Western MSM has largely ignored intelligence info gathered and supplied by he Russians, which seems a lot more truthful, :confused:Why is that? as are reports on www.pravda.ru (http://www.pravda.ru). Re western based sites which do not support the " official story" that "powers that be " would like believed, probably one of the best is www.globalresearch.ca (http://www.globalresearch.ca).
.. ... ....

I left the last bit out so that people would not be reminded of Godwin's Law.

korg20000bc

10th September 2014, 07:16 AM

Is there an equivalent phrase that can be used to describe people who consistently refuse to believe the possibility that their own government could be telling the truth?
I'll have a go:
Paranoia

windsock

10th September 2014, 07:29 AM

Is there an equivalent phrase that can be used to describe people who consistently refuse to believe the possibility that their own government could be telling the truth?

Non-voters ;)

rick130

10th September 2014, 07:49 AM

Of course the so called bullet holes most likely came from the surface to air missile warhead that uses a proximity fuse so it explodes before the missile actually hits the aircraft.

So these "bullet holes" have not been declared as such but are shrapnel holes from the missile warhead.

Don't let the facts get is the way of a good story or a political agenda.
Exactly what was said by a number of independent experts when that first bit of fuselage was sighted and photographed.

But as you say Gary, never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory !

sam_d

10th September 2014, 08:21 AM

I've just found a news website that says MH17 was MH370 coming out of a wormhole and that aliens did it.
Since this is different to what any other news outlet is reporting then I'm inclined to believe it cos everyone else must be part of a government conspiracy.

DiscoMick

10th September 2014, 08:22 AM

I just assumed it was a ground to air missile that was designed to explode as it hit the target, increasing the damage.
Can't see any reason why the Ukranians would shoot down an unarmed commercial airliner. After all, as you said Mox, there were no Russian aircraft in the area at the time so there was no reason for a Ukranian pilot to assume the airliner was a hostile aircraft.

mox

10th September 2014, 09:42 AM

BMKal

10th September 2014, 10:11 AM

Of interest is the Ukrainian government tried to claim that the rebels shot down MH17 thinking it was an Aeroflot (ie Russian owned) plane. Western media did not support the idea. From evidence so far available, seems almost certain it was one of their own fighters. There are several of what could be overall described as conspiracy theories as to the reason. Often as more information emerges, individual ones increase or decrease in credibility. Could be something as stupid as trigger happy shooting without proper identification of target. The US military has a reputation for being more dangerous than forces from many other countries in this respect.

Yeah ................... what "evidence" is that ???? :o

Hope you're enjoying those drugs you're on. :Thump:

Here - I found some "evidence" on the interweb that suggests that the plane was brought down by aliens .................

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1237.jpg

And apparently one of the flying saucers was damaged in the blast, and the "pilot" had to eject .................. they found him in a paddock a few km from the plane wreckage.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1238.jpg

Must be true ................. I found it on the interweb. ;)

No less believable than the "evidence" you've posted ......................

101RRS

10th September 2014, 10:36 AM

From evidence so far available, seems almost certain it was one of their own fighters. The US military has a reputation for being more dangerous than forces from many other countries in this respect.

There is no evidence to support that, though you seem to think there is - to the contrary there is lots of evidence to support the opposite.

In your last statement you are now implying that the Ukrainians did not shoot down the plane but is was the US military - where did they come from??

You also need to do some research on how the warheads of the missiles work - you will see that the damage to the aircraft is consistent with a proximity warhead - the aircraft broke up in the air caused by a catastrophic decompression caused by multiple strikes from foreign objects - eg metal fragments from a warhead.

Typically these warheads use a proximity fuse so the warhead explodes at a distance from the aircraft. The headhead can contain various materials but often is an expanding rod and other fragments that cuts into the aircraft with the body of the missile with its momentum and remaining fuel coming in to finish the job.

From Wkipedia on the Buk Missile

"In general, the system identifies potential targets (radar), selects a particular target (command), fires a missile (launcher) at the target, and resupplies the system (logistics). The missiles require a radar lock to initially steer the missile to the target until the missile's on-board radar system takes over to provide final course corrections. A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 3,000 km/h (1,900 mph) (or more than 900 m/s (3,000 ft/s))."

Also - the initial Dutch report on the flight recorders indicates that the aircrew did not know before the incident that something was up - gun/cannon fire would not take down the aircraft in one go or at least quick enough not to alert - not a sound from the aircrew such as "oh ****" - the incident happened so quick that there was no alarm on the cockpit voice tapes.

Chucaro

10th September 2014, 11:16 AM

Can be the possibility that the plane was hit accidentally by duck hunters?
Is a duck hunting season in Ukraine :p

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

101RRS

10th September 2014, 12:22 PM

The Dutch investigators have just announced that the "bullet holes" in the cockpit area are consistent with a proximity fuse type explosion from a missile - not bullets. Indeed they have recovered some of these fragments from the aircraft wreckage and more importantly from the bodies of the flight deck crew.

So while they have not said it is definitely from a missile the evidence points to that and when the fragments have been fully analysed we will know for sure what weapon was actually used.

Unfortunately only a preliminary report from the Dutch is available - concentrating on the data recorders but the broader investigation is well underway with information leaking out - the full report is not expected until mid next year.

These early results are supporting the Ukrainian version of events and slowly discrediting the Russian version.

No doubt the disbelievers will come up with reasons to counter this evidence.

Garry

Garry

akula

10th September 2014, 07:09 PM

There is no evidence to support that, though you seem to think there is - to the contrary there is lots of evidence to support the opposite.

In your last statement you are now implying that the Ukrainians did not shoot down the plane but is was the US military - where did they come from??

You also need to do some research on how the warheads of the missiles work - you will see that the damage to the aircraft is consistent with a proximity warhead - the aircraft broke up in the air caused by a catastrophic decompression caused by multiple strikes from foreign objects - eg metal fragments from a warhead.

Typically these warheads use a proximity fuse so the warhead explodes at a distance from the aircraft. The headhead can contain various materials but often is an expanding rod and other fragments that cuts into the aircraft with the body of the missile with its momentum and remaining fuel coming in to finish the job.

From Wkipedia on the Buk Missile

"In general, the system identifies potential targets (radar), selects a particular target (command), fires a missile (launcher) at the target, and resupplies the system (logistics). The missiles require a radar lock to initially steer the missile to the target until the missile's on-board radar system takes over to provide final course corrections. A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 3,000 km/h (1,900 mph) (or more than 900 m/s (3,000 ft/s))."

Also - the initial Dutch report on the flight recorders indicates that the aircrew did not know before the incident that something was up - gun/cannon fire would not take down the aircraft in one go or at least quick enough not to alert - not a sound from the aircrew such as "oh ****" - the incident happened so quick that there was no alarm on the cockpit voice tapes.

Such conviction and certainty....

If anyone is interested and patient (verbal translation) evidence presented by the Russian Defence Ministry can be seen here: Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL) - YouTube

vnx205

10th September 2014, 07:25 PM

akula

10th September 2014, 09:48 PM

Evidence? Hardly!

That presentation by the Russian Defence Ministry contains a lot of claims and assertions, but not a lot of convincing evidence.

The caption at the bottom towards the end says that their conclusions are based on "stated evidence". That sounds a lot like their conclusions are based on statements by someone, not based on hard evidence.

Oh, you did listen to it then?

That presentation by the Russian Defence Ministry contains a lot of claims and assertions, but not a lot of convincing evidence

As opposed to the originally posted article?

The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike."... "They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said...His testimony was confirmed by a second eyewitness, who added that an officer in a military jeep escorting the BUK spoke with a Muscovite accent

Unidentified Ukrainians with at best anecdotal evidence - Damning stuff!

Something to consider:
Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

-

akula

10th September 2014, 10:38 PM

I left the last bit out so that people would not be reminded of Godwin's Law.

A glib invocation of Godwin's Law doesn't seem appropriate when there are actual neo-nazis embedded within Ukrainian military, as finally acknowledged in some MSM:Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis)

windsock

11th September 2014, 03:58 AM

398 innocent people died. It was a military weapon that killed them. It is a conflict that should not be happening. It is a problem that won't be sorted out in this thread.

Chucaro

11th September 2014, 06:29 AM

398 innocent people died. It was a military weapon that killed them. It is a conflict that should not be happening. It is a problem that won't be sorted out in this thread.

Not even in the UN, my guess is that this tragic episode will be covered up as a collateral damage :mad:

vnx205

11th September 2014, 06:50 AM

Oh, you did listen to it then?

Why wouldn't I? I assumed that you posted it so that i could listen to it.

Something to consider:
Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

I assume you feel better now because self analysis is supposed to be beneficial and confession is supposed to be good for the soul. :)

I thought at first that your comments might be directed at me, but realised that was most unlikely since I don't have an entrenched view on the topic and don't feel a need to convince anyone of any particular view.

I don't believe that any of my posts actually support any particular view.

I have confined myself to drawing attention to weaknesses in the case of people who clearly do have an entrenched view and are obviously demonstrating confirmation bias.

In case you are wondering why I didn't draw attention to the same thing that you criticised in the BBC report, the answer is simple. I didn't read that BBC report and i still haven't read it apart from the section you quoted.

Chucaro

11th September 2014, 07:40 AM

These issue becomes more and more messy and in some ways even disgusting.
How are the world going to take action and rule war criminals those that have have brought down the plane when now the Ukrainian parliament is to debate a law on amnesty for Ukrainian troops who have committed war crimes in the course of military actions in Eastern Ukraine?
A bill on amnesty for military personnel who committed war crimes during the military crackdown in Eastern Ukraine was introduced in the Rada (the Ukrainian parliament) on Wednesday, its website says. The bill assumes the discharge of legal responsibility and punishment of military staff and “other people” for the actions which “bear the marks of war crime.”
Are war crimes acceptable?

Pickles2

11th September 2014, 09:06 AM

Not even in the UN, my guess is that this tragic episode will be covered up as a collateral damage :mad:
Hello my passionate friend.
I disagree, IMHO, there will be no "cover up".....although obviously the "guilty party" would like that to happen.
I believe irrefutable proof, & evidence, will eventually be provided, so we'll know for sure who did it, but then,.......will "they" be bought to account?
Pickles.

Chucaro

11th September 2014, 10:57 AM

Hello my passionate friend.
I disagree, IMHO, there will be no "cover up".....although obviously the "guilty party" would like that to happen.
I believe irrefutable proof, & evidence, will eventually be provided, so we'll know for sure who did it, but then,.......will "they" be bought to account?
Pickles.

I agree with you, I have expressed my point wrong, what I was meaning is make justice to the work, bring the criminals in this conflict to the international courts.
Not only the one that have committed the crime that have killed all of these innocent people in the plane but also those that have committed war crimes.
Reading about the bill that was in the Ukraine parliament looks like that was not going to be the case. :mad:

ramblingboy42

11th September 2014, 11:20 AM

Can be the possibility that the plane was hit accidentally by duck hunters?
Is a duck hunting season in Ukraine :p

http://en.almandry.com/uploads/posts/2010-09/1284549791_imagescagifau2.jpg

No, its wabbit season

akula

11th September 2014, 07:29 PM

I assume you feel better now because self analysis is supposed to be beneficial and confession is supposed to be good for the soul. :)
Clumsy.

I thought at first that your comments might be directed at me, but realised that was most unlikely since I don't have an entrenched view on the topic and don't feel a need to convince anyone of any particular view.

A not unexpected response really. I wonder what other explanations can be produced in defense of your seeming tendency to lazily and above all derisively shrug off alternate viewpoints/evidence as 'conspiracy theories' without furnishing evidence/rationale/analysis for this decision.

If there was an absence of entrenched views I guess I would have hoped to see some reflection following your startlingly casual dismissal of Russian MoD evidence. For example, such cynicism could be expressed to the ridiculous evidence presented in the initial article (hopefully read by now). There could also be an admission that the frequent and ongoing claims of Russian incursions - sans concrete or verifiable evidence - are particularly odious to a methodical and critical thinker such as yourself. As far as I can ascertain however your cynicism is reserved for opponent viewpoints - happy to be shown otherwise.

That presentation by the Russian Defence Ministry contains a lot of claims and assertions, but not a lot of convincing evidence.

What would you consider convincing evidence? I am genuinely interested.
Especially in context of the many vested interests, the palpable bias, the yawning abyss of hypocrisy and the baying for blood.

I have confined myself to drawing attention to weaknesses in the case of people who clearly do have an entrenched view and are obviously demonstrating confirmation bias.

That seems to be more of a mission statement than something you have actually done here, but by all means feel free do draw attention to weaknesses of my arguments, I'll wait.

-

85 county

12th September 2014, 07:53 AM

What would you consider convincing evidence? I am genuinely interested.
Especially in context of the many vested interests, the palpable bias, the yawning abyss of hypocrisy and the baying for blood.

-

Russian Graves in Rostov on don
Russian POWs taken by the Ukrainians
Statements by Russian solders
Statement by the Russian government that they are withdrawing troops from the Ukraine.

seems like you are flogging a dead duck there.

85 county

12th September 2014, 08:04 AM

look the BUK has an extreme range of 50 klm

ML 17 was at 30 000 ft that's about 9 klm

so about 49 klm dia from where the aircraft was hit.

Chucaro

12th September 2014, 12:26 PM

Offender90

12th September 2014, 12:32 PM

An interesting article on the Preliminary report into the MH17 crash. It's interesting in that it poses a lot of questions that ought to be asked yet the mainstream media don't appear to have any interest in asking.

Malaysia Airlines Whodunnit Still a Mystery | Consortiumnews (http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/09/malaysia-airlines-whodunnit-still-a-mystery/)

Chucaro

12th September 2014, 12:58 PM

Interesting article indeed make you wonder if there will be a final report where it will not "offend" any of the parties involved in the conflict.

85 county

12th September 2014, 02:44 PM

Interesting article indeed make you wonder if there will be a final report where it will not "offend" any of the parties involved in the conflict.

An interesting article on the Preliminary report into the MH17 crash. It's interesting in that it poses a lot of questions that ought to be asked yet the mainstream media don't appear to have any interest in asking.

Malaysia Airlines Whodunnit Still a Mystery | Consortiumnews (http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/09/malaysia-airlines-whodunnit-still-a-mystery/)

what was the brief or scope of the investigators?

bob10

12th September 2014, 04:57 PM

Putin & Co cannot be serious!! after invading Ukraine now they warned Barack Obama that an offensive against Islamic State (Isis) within Syria would violate international law :eek: :mad: :censored:

Are these mob acting under the influence of vodka? looks like.............

It must be stated Russia is a friend of the current Syrian government. Has been from the start. Possibly just giving the message that this should not go beyond ISIS. If you look at what is happening in Syria, there are numerous groups fighting for their own interests, It could get .... complicated.... Bob

Chucaro

12th September 2014, 05:07 PM

The Preliminary Report

akula

12th September 2014, 05:32 PM

Russian Graves in Rostov on don
Russian POWs taken by the Ukrainians
Statements by Russian solders
Statement by the Russian government that they are withdrawing troops from the Ukraine.

seems like you are flogging a dead duck there.

What Ru Gov statement of the withdrawal of troops from Ukraine?? Please link!

-

85 county

12th September 2014, 05:58 PM

What Ru Gov statement of the withdrawal of troops from Ukraine?? Please link!

-

the Moscow times Wednesday, do you own work, you may be suprised

akula

12th September 2014, 06:36 PM

the Moscow times Wednesday, do you own work, you may be suprised

Do my own work? How about backing your claims!

Already did a search, found nothing beside Ukrainian claims - nil Ru Gov statements.

Not surprised.

85 county

13th September 2014, 12:45 AM

Do my own work? How about backing your claims!

Not surprised.

HA HA pot calling the kettle black, try backing up your claims with something else than propaganda, wishful thinking and a crystal ball. oh faithful one of the grassy knoll

akula

13th September 2014, 08:07 AM

HA HA pot calling the kettle black, try backing up your claims with something else than propaganda, wishful thinking and a crystal ball. oh faithful one of the grassy knoll

Uh huh. Still nothing then?

85 county

13th September 2014, 08:43 AM

Uh huh. Still nothing then?

correct looks like you have nothing

akula

13th September 2014, 10:01 AM

correct looks like you have nothing

Not interested.

85 county

16th September 2014, 08:51 PM

The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia

the defacto russian state bible. all should read it before commenting

akula

16th September 2014, 10:38 PM

The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives Zbigniew Brzezinski 1997

85 county

17th September 2014, 07:06 AM

both books are bang on. but there are some major differences.

a reader of both books will firstly see a glaring difference. the Russian book is about what Russia should do. the second is about what america should do but in RESPONSE to what Russia is doing. IE one is proactive and the other is responsive

Foundations of Geopolitics, is written by a Russian in Russia basically outlining Russian policy, or creating Russian policy ( suspect) for global dominance or projecting Russian influence. it gives the reader a clear outline of Russian intentions. more importantly Russian desire to dominate the world and how it should achieve this. it also give the final Russian goal, IE how the map should be redrawn. spheres of influence.

ironically the authors chosen sir name is also the title of a book about an american who survived the Gulags and was final allowed to leave Russia in the 70s to be reunited with his sister in the US.

The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives Zbigniew Brzezinski 1997
this is not the only books he has written. Brzezinski, predicted the breakup of the USSR as a result of it own inability to preform as a governmental system. He was the main supporter of peaceful or non confrontational american attitude towards the USSR with the view that most USSR sates will eventually get themselves out from behind the iron curtain, and once this started the hole system would colaps. he has since been proven correct.
how ever the book quoted is limited to american response or what american response should be to Russian invasions. he was anti Bush and his or the US involvement in the gulf.

i do not know of his influence in american politics today, he has a big influence are Carters Day. Obama lists him as an advisory, but Obama seems not to be heavenly influenced by Brzezinski. IE getting to involved Multilaterally.

akula: it is hard for me to grasp the logic of you quoting this book to make your case. it in fact has the opposite affect. it is in essence a non governmental publication on one mans view of how to limit soviet aggression with out using force. it is not the USA manual on destroying RUSSIA

incisor

17th September 2014, 08:16 AM

sigh...

yet another thread with you two going toe to toe and boring the hell out of the rest of us...

feel free to take it somewhere else because i am starting to get complaints over your behavior, again.

akula

17th September 2014, 07:08 PM

bob10

12th October 2015, 07:44 AM

MH17 hit by Russian-made missile: final report | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/10/11/flight-mh17-shot-russia-observers/)

Eevo

12th October 2015, 08:11 AM

can the report been seen as anything other than a political construct?
the finger was always going to point towards russia.

TerryO

12th October 2015, 12:08 PM

can the report been seen as anything other than a political construct?
the finger was always going to point towards russia.

Well if it was a Russian made missile that was launched from somewhere inside the pro Russian held territory then its hard to come to any other conclusion wouldn't you think?.

mox

12th October 2015, 12:27 PM

Well if it was a Russian made missile that was launched from somewhere inside the pro Russian held territory then its hard to come to any other conclusion wouldn't you think?.
Seems to those who believe lies included in the news peddled by the Western mainstream media on behalf of its political masters it was a Russian made missile that shot down MH17. To anyone with an open mind who has kept an eye on alternate news sources, has appeared all along that it was shot down with bullets from a Ukrainian fighter plane. Seems there is also damage from a missile - of air to air type with further evidence narrowing it to most likely a model made in Israel. Details of damage inflicted are apparently not consistent with that expected from the Russian missiles western "powers that be" would like to have it believed was responsible.

Disco Muppet

12th October 2015, 02:27 PM

Elvis and Harold Holt conspired to shoot it down, seeing as they're both still alive.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

V8Ian

12th October 2015, 03:04 PM

Elvis and Harold Holt conspired to shoot it down, seeing as they're both still alive.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app
Elvis? :o What a crackpot theory that is, Elvis is dead.

85 county

12th October 2015, 03:17 PM

Seems to those who believe lies included in the news peddled by the Western mainstream media on behalf of its political masters it was a Russian made missile that shot down MH17. To anyone with an open mind who has kept an eye on alternate news sources, has appeared all along that it was shot down with bullets from a Ukrainian fighter plane. Seems there is also damage from a missile - of air to air type with further evidence narrowing it to most likely a model made in Israel. Details of damage inflicted are apparently not consistent with that expected from the Russian missiles western "powers that be" would like to have it believed was responsible.

SHEEHS the only photos showen in many media shows a **** load of small Holes

the only UKA aircraft flying at that time 1 has not the operational ceiling of that of an airliner passing over head, about 12000 ft to short.

Israel like american a2a uses a frail to do the damage, like a loop of numchunks to cut. Russian stuff uses shrapnel. the damage we have been shown is consistent with shrapnel.

you can not just clip on US missiles to a Russian air frame, its just not that simple

the UKA aircraft could not get close enough to fire a missile let alone use it guns

we have not been shown any thing that looks like gun damage. US stuff is mullty barrelled and smaller calibre. but the grouping tracks. we have been shown nothing that looks like that.
Russian stuff is a hight cyclic rate single barrel of larger calibres ( cannon)
there are just tomany holes and thay are to small for that.

Now everyone on any side who Knows. Knows that some 1/2 assed trained sepertasts or RF on holiday types. took at shot at an UKA aircraft or thought they did. they got the wrong plane.

i suspect the weapon was not manned by Russian regulars, simply because there SOP would be to lose 3 missiles with 3 offsets ( for want of a better word) to counter any counter action

Ferret

12th October 2015, 03:51 PM

Elvis? :o What a crackpot theory that is, Elvis is dead.

Crack pot theory indeed. By insightful logic you have ruled out Elvis. Further, I can't believe Holt was involved. It's just not possible for him to have pulled it off from within China.

Disco Muppet

12th October 2015, 03:56 PM

Crack pot theory indeed. By insightful logic you have ruled out Elvis. Further, I can't believe Holt was involved. It's just not possible for him to have pulled it off from within China.

He was assisted by the New World Order and the crab people. They re-animated Elvis' corpse so he could shoot JFK who was about to expose the Illuminati chemtrails that caused Port Arthur.
And yes I'm aware of the difficulty relating to timing of these events but the NWO controls time travel.

Ferret

12th October 2015, 04:47 PM

He was assisted by the New World Order and the crab people. They re-animated Elvis' corpse so he could shoot JFK who was about to expose the Illuminati chemtrails that caused Port Arthur.
And yes I'm aware of the difficulty relating to timing of these events but the NWO controls time travel.

Absolutely incredible, Disco Muppet. The truth behind all these mysteries revealed on AULRO before it has even been made up on 'Prison Planet' or 'Before It's News'. Those guys will have to lift their game if they are to remain the alternative news sites of choice.

Disco Muppet

12th October 2015, 05:38 PM

That's what you get when you go to group therapy with the uncle of the bartender where a former CIA agent's cousin goes.
Doesn't get much more valid than that.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

Pickles2

12th October 2015, 05:57 PM

Well if it was a Russian made missile that was launched from somewhere inside the pro Russian held territory then its hard to come to any other conclusion wouldn't you think?.
Exactly.
And despite the comments from the "usual suspects" who continue to admit the probable.
They continue to discount the original & "admitted" original tapes which even mentioning the person who actually CONFIRMED they'd shot down this aircraft. Those tapes have miraculously disappeared.
I ain't blaming the Russians here, not at all, they simply supplied the weapon, like the U.S. & many countries do. They would have trained the operatives,...like the U.S. do!!
However, I believe that it was a Russian Missile, I think that's generally believed, (but not by some on here!) that was launched by Russian Backed Ukrainian Rebels. The Rocket Launcher was seen entering the area, & was seen leaving,.......with only three missiles in place,...instead of the four that it was seen with when entering the area.
I believe all this will be well & truly be able to be proven. So no, Russians did not launch it. No direct blame to them,...that blame lies with the Ukrainian rebels.
It will be interesting to see how far the Netherlands & Australia are willing to go to prove this.
All, IMHO, of course. Pickles.

Eevo

12th October 2015, 06:06 PM

i more meant its easier to ignore any evidence and simply blame big bad russia.

if it was near korea, the report would say big bad north korea

Blknight.aus

12th October 2015, 06:16 PM

Elvis and Harold Holt conspired to shoot it down, seeing as they're both still alive.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

Elvis? :o What a crackpot theory that is, Elvis is dead.

Crack pot theory indeed. By insightful logic you have ruled out Elvis. Further, I can't believe Holt was involved. It's just not possible for him to have pulled it off from within China.

He was assisted by the New World Order and the crab people. They re-animated Elvis' corpse so he could shoot JFK who was about to expose the Illuminati chemtrails that caused Port Arthur.
And yes I'm aware of the difficulty relating to timing of these events but the NWO controls time travel.

barmy the lot of you.

it was COL. Mustard in the lavatory with the scatter gun...

85 county

12th October 2015, 08:21 PM

i more meant its easier to ignore any evidence and simply blame big bad russia.

if it was near korea, the report would say big bad north korea

look. you may be correct you may not be. but you are not Russian and have absolutely NO idea how they work internally.

you have not lived in Russia, you have not had dealings with Russians.

there are second generation Russians in Adelaide, university students, smart kids. who believe that all Australian news is american propaganda. last week i had a conversation with a 28 year-old girl who i have known for a number of years, she has finished her PHD in physiology and is now working for the family courts ( federal) who stood in front of me and stated that the Crimean and Ukrainian conflict was a Jewish plot!!!!

the look at Putins Australian speech, do a page 8 on it and actually READ the friggen thing

first intresting part

Minister Kerensky, the Head of the Provisional Government [in 1917], visited here. Even more surprising is the fact that he went on to marry an Australian journalist. This is a sort of unnatural union, even for a former Prime Minister. I don't know exactly why he did it. Perhaps he was overcome by grief after losing power, in a state of temporary insanity. Or maybe this is just the result of some internal disposition that led him from one mistake to another: first he lost power, then he lost it again.

read it as an Australian you think its funny, read it as a Russian, Australia hardboard or gave sanctuary to an enemy of the soviet state, he was mad Australia is mad, thus Australia is of no value.

second interesting bit

every name/ person and one ship has a meaning, every thing from we proved Capitan cook wrong ( thus we have as much right to you as England has) to Australia full of short hair blue eyes of suspect sexual orientation.

85 county

12th October 2015, 08:22 PM

barmy the lot of you.

it was COL. Mustard in the lavatory with the scatter gun...

Bollocks, it was a rail gun, and he was caught on utube

bob10

13th October 2015, 08:56 AM

It has been established beyond reasonable doubt it was a missile. The BUK has a 70 kg warhead, the explosion tore the front of the aircraft completely off. Fragments from the explosion were found in some of the bodies, [ those in the forward section, apparently] The only mystery is who fired it? Both the Ukraine and Russia had the BUK.

9K37 BUK-M1 SA-11 Gadfly technical data sheet specifications information description pictures photos | Russia Russian missile system vehicle UK | Russia Russian army military equipment vehicles UK (http://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_missile_system_vehicle_uk/9k37_buk-m1_sa-11_gadfly_technical_data_sheet_specifications_info rmation_description_pictures_photos.html)

85 county

13th October 2015, 04:18 PM

while the Ukraine has BUK systems, they are not really operational, lack of parts and age. Most people do not realise that the BUK system is more than one vehicles.. its proper use it 3 vehicles. IE two other radar systems working in conjuction.
the Ukraine has however over 100 9A33 systems. this is a self contatined one vehicle system. If the Ukraine felt the need to deploy air defence it would be this unit. but more manageable than the BUK.

the 9A33, system is much more compact in all respects, more manoeuvrable and with a lighter payload. as a result it uses a mixture of exploding ordnance and flichets in it warhead. this fact alone discounts it use in this case.

secondly one must ask, since the Ukraine rebels have no air asserts. why would the Ukraine deploy air defence?

on the other hand the Ukraine had deployed air assets against the rebels, thus the rebels needed air defence.

secondly. where the aircraft was hit was out of range given the front lines at that time.

so in short it really is a no brainier. it is of no consequence where th BUK unit originally came from, picked up by the Russians in the Ukraine possible, but really i have no idea. ether way it makes no difference, what is important is who pulled the trigger. and then there is what was there intentions. i firmly believe that because only one missile was launched which is not SOP. which to me indicates that the system was not operated by well trained personnel. since there in no political, millatery advantage to shooting down an airliner, and the fact that the Ukraine had an aircraft active at that time and had previously losed an aircraft to a BUK system. that the downing of the Malaysian airline was an operator error.

bob10

13th October 2015, 04:58 PM

And that, has been the general opinion of those who know these things, right from the start. The intercepted comms. between the rebels stating they had shot down a military aircraft, then the shock of the men on the ground when they discovered it was civilian ,should be enough to put the local rebel commander away for a very long time, just for a start.

mox

13th October 2015, 07:35 PM

Note that a Russian made Buk ground to air missile fired by either side bringing down MH17 seems highly improbable. For a start, would have been close to or over the altitude it can reach. Then , in broad daylight there would have been eyewitness reports of one flying along and /or the smoke trail they leave behind. There were none. Also, it seems that damage to MH17 that appeared to have been done by a missile seems to have been from smaller shrapnel fragments than used in Buks. Remember that photos of the panels from both sides of the cockpit, each with indented holes from bullets which have gone through them from both directions have been circulated. These would obviously have been censored had MH17 come down in an area controlled by the Kiev US puppet government. I think later versions spread by western media appeared to have been photoshopped to make these holes look more like they were caused by shrapnel.
Undoubtedly there has been pressure on the Dutch Air Safety Board to produce a report -due for release soon blaming the so called "rebels" defending themselves and /or the Russians despite lots of evidence indicating otherwise. The Russians are reserving further comments of their own until after it is released. Will most likely be able to quickly debunk false accusations against themselves and discredit those making them. An appropriate follow on from the Russians destroying half the military capability of Islamic State in Syria in a week. The fact that the US and it allies did little to weaken it exposes the scam of their secret support of IS to facilitate their own military objectives in the Middle East.

bob10

13th October 2015, 07:51 PM

The truth will come out.

MH17 crash: Ukraine releases alleged intercepts - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28362872)

85 county

13th October 2015, 07:55 PM

Note that a Russian made Buk ground to air missile fired by either side bringing down MH17 seems highly improbable. For a start, would have been close to or over the altitude it can reach. Then , in broad daylight there would have been eyewitness reports of one flying along and /or the smoke trail they leave behind. There were none.

your argument is mute, where there is claim by the Duch government and a belief in European governments that a BUK was the missile. there is also the Russian federation stating the same. so how do you dismiss that???
the only difference between the European governments views and the Russian federation views is from where the BUK was fired from, inside the rebels area of control or inside the Ukrainian governments area of control

Also, it seems that damage to MH17 that appeared to have been done by a missile seems to have been from smaller shrapnel fragments than used in Buks. Remember that photos of the panels from both sides of the cockpit, each with indented holes from bullets which have gone through them from both directions have been circulated. These would obviously have been censored had MH17 come down in an area controlled by the Kiev US puppet government. I think later versions spread by western media appeared to have been photoshopped to make these holes look more like they were caused by shrapnel.

Undoubtedly there has been pressure on the Dutch Air Safety Board to produce a report -due for release soon blaming the so called "rebels" defending themselves and /or the Russians despite lots of evidence indicating otherwise. The Russians are reserving further comments of their own until after it is released. Will most likely be able to quickly debunk false accusations against themselves and discredit those making them. An appropriate follow on from the Russians destroying half the military capability of Islamic State in Syria in a week. The fact that the US and it allies did little to weaken it exposes the scam of their secret support of IS to facilitate their own military objectives in the Middle East.

you know that in china, there bolgers are paid 50 cents and hour. and you only get at best 1200 roubles a month

Blknight.aus

13th October 2015, 09:26 PM

Bollocks, it was a rail gun, and he was caught on utube

rubbish, they didnt have rail guns in his day, at best it might have been a MLA

Ferret

13th October 2015, 10:58 PM

85 county

14th October 2015, 06:52 AM

MH17 victims could have been conscious as plane plunged after missile hit - World - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11528574&ref=NZH_FBpage)

bob10

14th October 2015, 07:20 AM

The verdict. [ note, radar images showed no other aircraft near MH17]

The terrifying final moments of flight MH17 | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/10/14/mh17-russian-made-missile-responsible/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20151014%20The%20New%20Daily%203%20(1 )&utm_content=&spMailingID=23734891&spUserID=MTIxODgyNjMyMTEwS0&spJobID=661337494&spReportId=NjYxMzM3NDk0S0)

The unanswered question....

The biggest MH17 question still unanswered | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/10/14/mh17-reactions-dutch-report-released-tuesday/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20151014%20The%20New%20Daily%203%20(1 )&utm_content=&spMailingID=23734891&spUserID=MTIxODgyNjMyMTEwS0&spJobID=661337494&spReportId=NjYxMzM3NDk0S0)

85 county

14th October 2015, 01:46 PM

rubbish, they didnt have rail guns in his day, at best it might have been a MLA

Bollocks, 88 MPH duh :D

85 county

14th October 2015, 02:21 PM

Note that a Russian made Buk ground to air missile fired by either side bringing down MH17 seems highly improbable..

the Russian federation concerns that MH17 was shot down by a missile, but holds reservations of the type of missile.

the Buk system has come under upgrades over the 40 approx years it has been about. all of these upgrades have been about rada, target aqustion and systems management or integration.

regardless of any disagreement over what model missile was used the shrapnel is distinctive and the type used by the BUK system. this pattern or style of shrapnel is not used by any other country.

The russian federation has claimed that MH17 was shot down by an older BUK system like the system sold to the Ukraine.

since Russia is not really in the habit of telling out and out lies ( hard to exsplane) this has no meaning on who fired the missile. Russia with new weapon developments have historicity held there old systems in place. so Russia will have regiments using the older systems as well as regiments using the newer system.

so Russia's statement of MH17 being shot down by an older system shows no light on who may have fired it.

AndyG

17th October 2015, 05:17 PM

I am surprised no one here has pointed the finger at mick marsh and his illicit convoy of 101's with all original Accessories ie rapiers that were doing a transit to Oz. I have a friend who has a son, in the AFP who went to the crash site, and found many mysterious oil stains. :o :wasntme:

Some of the above is true

Mick_Marsh

17th October 2015, 06:00 PM

AndyG

17th October 2015, 06:40 PM

I knew I should have taken your swag for a quick lap around the camp site, before you got up one morning.

You two get back to Vic without drama.?
My diff guards from Apt got the Alien mod, the day after you were there.

Mick_Marsh

17th October 2015, 06:44 PM

Alien had a tank guard installed.
It would have come in handy the previous weekends driving.

bob10

28th September 2016, 06:57 AM

Russia 'washes hands' of MH17 mess, accuses Ukraine (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2016/09/27/mh17-criminal-report-ukraine/?utm_source=Responsys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20160928_TND)

bob10

29th September 2016, 06:48 AM

The verdict is in

MH17 Investigators: Missile That Hit Jet Was Brought From Russia - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/mh17-investigators-missile-hit-jet-was-brought-russia-n655916?cid=eml_nbn_20160928)

bob10

29th September 2016, 07:33 AM

More on MH17.

MH17 missile came from Russian separatist territory: investigation | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2016/09/28/mh17-criminal-report/?utm_source=Responsys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20160929_TND)

Cobber

5th October 2016, 07:40 PM

... and I see they've got some solid evidence in place now.

There's lots of noises being made about bringing those responsible to justice. I hope they do but I suspect it will be harder to do so than those making the noise are willing to admit :question::(