Traction Control versus Lockers

[JohnMartinez]

I went on a LR sponsered day for new owners. I drive a Defender 110 Xtreme. The guy demonstrated and had me driving up serious slopes with the traction control kicking in. I was thinking that for the long distance trips which is what I want to do, is traction control enough for me. I dont intend to do rock crawling and the system seemed so good. What do you think?

[Hellspawn]

It's all good until the computer gets wet then it's "good night". Least with lockers if they get wet they still work. :wink:

[DiscoTDI]

I was under the impression if you get your computer wet in a td5 the whole vehicle will stop so the lockers would be useless if the motors stopped :wink:

[Ace]

ETC is great but in situations where it has to work really hard for a long time, it can actually stop working till it cools down or something. ETC will work in most situations, but you cant beat lockers front and rear, or even just rear. They are on my shopping list, mind you they arent cheap. ARB air lockers are supposed to be quite good. Matt

[HSVRangie]

just wait untill Haultech traction control is out.

works very well far superior to oem stuff.

Michael.

[LandyAndy]

Hi
From what I have read here and in mags,it seems a switch to disconect the ETC/ABS could be an advantage.
In the latest 4WD monthly there is a Patrol in there with a switch for the ABS fitted,apparently the stopping distances on gravel are much better with it switched off.
I had a friends VT dunnydoor for a few weeks,it was a real pig on the gravel with the traction control switched on.
If you did fit such a switch you would need quite a bright idiot light to make sure it was obviuos the ABS is turned off.
Andrew

[DiscoTDI]

not so sure about the abs but the tcs needs a switch

[matbor]

Originally posted by HSVRangie
just wait untill Haultech traction control is out.

works very well far superior to oem stuff.

Michael.

Tell us a bit about the Haultech unit ??

Matt.

[disco95]

Yes michael, do you need abs already set up or will it work on a stand alone basis. could be a good thing if it comes out cheaper than a pair of lockers.

[HSVRangie]

It will be a bolt on unit.

already running on a RRover.
3-4 comp buggies.

Dont need abs.

do need sep brake lines to each wheel either at engine bay or on axle.

Michael.

[matbor]

How does it work then ? and will it be expensive or cheaper thatn lockers ??

[HSVRangie]

around 2.5 K

computer and sensors.

thats about all I know.

I believe it will be released next year.

Michael.

[Tyrepower]

Originally posted by DiscoTDI
not so sure about the abs but the tcs needs a switch

I second that.
However untill then I just pull the fuse on mine when in deep sand. You don't forget it's out either, as every idiot light on the dash comes on untill you relace it.
Works great on rocky an slippery hills, it's only in the heavy sand that it causes problems for me.

[hook]

Seen TCS working in ssand for the 1st time the other week,
The Disco was hopping all over the place like a Kangaroo.

[Hellspawn]

Originally posted by DiscoTDI
I was under the impression if you get your computer wet in a td5 the whole vehicle will stop so the lockers would be useless if the motors stopped :wink:

I guess it would depend on when the 'puter got wet but probably right.

Still like the idea something would still work on the vehicle in that situation. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[DaveS3]

Lockers are very harsh on the drive train.

TC works well for what it is, the Haultech stuff should be great.

$$$ will be on par with lockers.

TC is still way better than having plain open diffs.

Stick with TC and if you want later fit lockers if needed.

Dave

[hiline]

my personal advise
is tc and lockers dont mix
if you do get lockers front and rear
make sure you pull the fuse or get a switch

i've been here before with this comment and i aint going back :twisted:

[DiscoTDI]

I would not fit lockers unless the vehicle was going to be going hardcore 4wding every weekend :wink:

[disco95]

I think if you were going on a pretty serious trip, where you knew there'd be some hard tracks it'd be worth it. For the norm I'd say traction control would be pretty good, get you out of trouble.

[Timmo]

I reckon when the traction control, a heap of right boot and some muddies will get you no further it is time to break out the winch. i can't justify the cost of lockers.

[blitz]

Iv'e had lockers for about four years now and the only damage I have done to the drive train was to snap an axle, but I was bogged and pulling over six grand when I got traction, my fault not the vehicle or the lockers.

I like the control of the lockers as I can turn them on or off at my discresion, I think they are best for very steep hills up or down, not bad in mud but if you go into mud without a winch ummm well you will be there for as long time because once you are bogged with lockers you are seriously bogged.

I cant see the point of them in sand in fact I think they are a hinderance as you will not get as far, mainly due to the trench you dig when you turn. and sand is a bugger to get out of once you are bogged no matter whether you have lockers or not - tyre size, type and inflation are much more important.

I dont use my lockers on rocky / hard ground as I don't believe the standard landrover drive train is strong enough. Maybe if I had McNamarra axles, diffs and lockers, but then I would be breaking transfercases and gearboxs.

Finally they are excellent on slippery boat ramps.

I have never used traction control so I can't make a comparison I can only offer my view of the ARB units that I ahve and at times have found them invaluable and at other times I shouldn't have used them. At the end of the day experience with them and use with caution (think about the situation and how you will get out) is probably the best moto

Cheers Blitz

[rmp]

Originally posted by hiline
my personal advise
is tc and lockers dont mix
if you do get lockers front and rear
make sure you pull the fuse or get a switch



Why?

Please explain.

This makes no sense to me. If an axle is locked TC cannot kick in as there is no difference between the wheel speeds on the axle.

[hiline]

i copped a bagging for this a while ago

i had 2 landys 110 & 130which i still have
both cars fitted the same in every way

but the 110 would always snap axle's
couldnt work out why :twisted:

we were told it was because of TC
after we found out it was this
never had a problem again just as long as the fuse was pulled

i'm not a mechanical person
but the guy's did explain why it was happening
carnt remember the reason why
but i will ring them tomorrow and give you the answers your after

[hiline]

Hi Ray
THe way I see it is TC locks the wheel that starts to spin allowing the other wheel to maintain traction so a diff lock will negate TC as the wheels cannot spin idependantly.
The dissadvantage with TC is that in mud sand or snow it will tend to over react and bog the vehicle

Hope this makes sense

Peter


AMV Win in Malaysia


AMV Win Outback Challenge

this guy knows about 4wd

[rmp]

Originally posted by hiline
Hi Ray
THe way I see it is TC locks the wheel that starts to spin allowing the other wheel to maintain traction so a diff lock will negate TC as the wheels cannot spin idependantly.
The dissadvantage with TC is that in mud sand or snow it will tend to over react and bog the vehicle

Hope this makes sense

Peter


AMV Win in Malaysia


AMV Win Outback Challenge

this guy knows about 4wd

Peter is saying *exactly* the same thing as me, but in different words.

We agree that TC is effectively negated/disabled with a locker.

The reason is because TC relies on one wheel on an axle spinning faster than the other. In the case of the Mitsubishi system, a 3kmph difference will do it.

Once the computers detect that difference they apply the brake to the spinning wheel several times a second. This has the result of transferring torque to the wheel that is not spinning as fast, which is almost by definition the one with more traction.

A cross-axle difflock forces both wheels to spin at the same speed. Therefore, while TC may be active, it is never engaged because can be no difference between the speeds of the wheels on a given axle. There is no point pulling the fuse, it can't activate anyway.

[hiline]

now the car would be fine
go well must of the time when 4wd
we would watch the tc working and even here it pulsing between wheels
now dont forget all wheels are spinning at this stage freely and at great speed

but as soon as we locked front & rear air lockers
the wheels would slowdown to a complete stop
they would shudder & shake
then snap there goes yet another axle
around 8 intotal all up

but as soon as we pulled the fuse
never happened again

[rmp]

Hmm, that is most interesting, and doesn't make any sense to me. I believe you, no question, I just do not understand what is happening there and I like to understand these things!

There is only one explanation I can think of, and that is perhaps the lockers were engaged while the wheels were madly spinning. That might confuse the TC enough so it continues to activate (even though it shouldn't) when the axle is locked and the wheels are at the same speed.

That sounds like the most probable explanation to me.

The solution would be to engage lockers BEFORE the wheels start madly spinning. This is good practice anyway.

At which point were the lockers engaged? While the wheels were spinning, or when all four wheels had traction?

[hiline]

never engaged them as they were spinning 8O 8O
only when we had lost traction from TC
but it never happened at slow speeds like rock crawling and stuff
only when you would give it a good dose of the right foot :wink:

yes we were all puzzled to why this was happening
but like i said once it was de-fused it was fine

[rmp]

Which model/year Defender was this?

[hiline]

2000 110 extreme td5

[DEFENDERZOOK]

have you ever thought the locker might not be operating correctly
maybe not engaging or letting go at high revs?
that should be enough to snap an axle.
the 130 i think has thicker axles. maybe thats what stopped them from breaking.

but i think there was a problem with the 110 where something was not operating correctly...be it tc or lockers.

[hiline]

i dont care anymore
coz its long gone style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif
thank christ
that car cost a small fortune to keep running :evil: :evil:

[rmp]

Why? (my favourite question, you may have noticed)

What else went wrong aside from the 8 broken axles?

[DEFENDERZOOK]

im starting to wonder if front and rear diffs had the same ratios

[hiline]

rear diff
turbo
axles
engine mounts
alternator
gearbox 36000k's
wheel bairings
viscous fan
pulley's

[noddy]

Hiline -- did LRA come to the party in relation to the gearbox? Was it still under warranty?

Also -- what makes were the broken axles, Maxi or LR?

[hiline]

both the cars gearboxes went within 2000k's of each other
110 36000k's
130 around the 37000k's

landrover did pay for the lot style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

the axle's were LR

i still run the standard LR axle's in the front of my 130
havent broken as yet................touch wood style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[noddy]

I hate the R380.

In my 130 the mainshaft **** itself after about 130,000kms.

LR have just rebuilt the box in my 110 after 55,000kms because they stuffed up and did not put ATF instead of MTF in the box.

[hiline]

i must say though everytime 1 of the cars would stuff up
LR would fix it with no questions asked
replacement car the hole works
and at no cost to us in anyway
LR warranty would have to be the best i've come across style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Slunnie]

I run the 3 diff locks and have ETC on the Disco.
F&R are ARB, centre JDMW.

I find that on the sand that the ETC is not much of an issue at all. The 1 scenario that can trick it is climbing dunes. Lock the CDL and then there is no issue again. It just the front tramping and the ETC trying to control it. Everywhere else, if the ETC is slowing you then yo are waaaay off with your tyre pressures for that sand. On Stockton which is about as soft as it gets I run 12-15psi, generally at the upper end, and hardly see the ETC flicker unless I'm playing silly buggers.

Re the ETC and diff locks. I have wired to disable the ETC and can do it with ease. To date, I have never had a situation that has made me want to disable the ETC at all.

With the lockers, I always leave the ETC activated also. Running rear locked keeps the ETC happening on the front. Running fully locked the ETC hardly triggers. The light every now and then does flash on, though I suspect its just reacting to the releasing flex in the axles. Doesn't happen often though.