zf-4hp24 into D2 td5

[roarin8]

Hi everyone, I am looking at replacing my blown up auto trans in my D2. This is not the first time its gone to meet its maker, and if any of you have tried to buy a "good low k second hand" unit from a wrecker, you'll be a)paying through the nose for something of unknown condition or b)told they have sold them all. Now i'm not gonna lie at this point and say that i treat my disco nicely( i am a mechanic though and i do service/maintain it regularly). I'm a firm believer in using this fourby for what it's meant to be used for, and in my experience, the auto, once it starts giving trouble, tends to render the vehicle almost useless, not to mention unreliable. The main issue seems to be overheating/overloading. Now the p38 RR 4.6 post 99, is fitted with the zf 4hp24 auto, which has a bigger fluid pump. Now as far as i can see, as long as the bellhousing from the td5 bolts up, this should fit under the disco. I'm aware this trans is 15mm longer to allow for a thicker intermediate plate. I've looked at the pinouts for the EAT ECU's for D2 and p38 and don't see any real issues there either they look very compatible. Can anyone see any reason why i shouldn't try this?? Any input would be greatly appreciated. cheers!

[Boris_law]

Mate, I just recently had a zf-4hp24 fitted to my V8 D2 and it's working great, came with a bigger TC as well.

[harlie]

quite a few of the guys have.

[roarin8]

So the td5 bellhousing should bolt up no probs?:D

[clubagreenie]

Theres a difference in the stack height of the boss and shims on the back of the crank (at least on the V8) when I fitted an Ashcroft HP24 to mine I needed to surface grind it to the right stack height as the TC had float between being fully seated in the pump and against the flex plate.

Not sure about the TD5 but the V8 HP24 TC is usually the largest TC of the 3, the largest TC the TD5 bell housing will take is the medium unit.

If you speak to Ashcrofts they will be able to advise of what if anything needs changing to fit.

[roarin8]

how much float are we talking? most tc's that i've fitted when installing a trans usually pulls away from the pump when the tc bolts are done up. i would've thought that as long as the dogs engage in the pump its all good? but now that you have pointed it out i'll certainly make sure its right! :D

[clubagreenie]

It's really close and is an issue as it can damage the pump. It NEEDS to be right for the start. Else it's new pump, so boxes & wallet out again.

[roarin8]

ahh ok you mean it's too tight! now i'm with you.... lol ;)

[Ian Ashcroft]

Hi Roarin8. Just for info the pump gears on the 22 and 24 are the same. The spacer plate is thicker to accommodate the much larger A clutch on the 24. Be aware the TC. 'Balloons' when pressurised hence the need for clearance when static. Regards. Ian Ashcroft

[roarin8]

Update: now that i have the 4hp24 sitting in my shed, i've started taking measurements and comparing the differences: the snout (pump drive) on the v8 hp24 TC is 10mm longer than the td5 hp22 TC, also the output shaft on this one doesn't have a threaded center for the retaining bolt for the adaptor shaft to the lt230, As the p38 had the borg warner transfer which was fine splined. I'd imagine that if i had got a hp24 from an HSE 4.6 d2, it would have the adaptor shaft, or a threaded hole already. No big deal though as it's only a short amount of thread and i reckon i can drill it out square enough for this application. Also (obviously) i have to change over the rear adaptor housing to suit the lt230, which looks like it will bolt straight up! All i have to do at this point is send off the TC's and get one made up to suit.

[clubagreenie]

D2's never got a 24 (or a 4.6 except NAS where they have both). The extension shaft is quite a cheap part to replace so I'd look at that first before trying to drill a hardened shaft.

[roarin8]

Next update! Have decided to try out the converter that came with the 24, and see what it's like. Believe it or not it actually fits quiet nicely into the td5 bellhousing Meanwhile I've got the centre hub into the local machine shop to have it shortened and have found out where I can get some flex plate material from to make one suitable for this retrofit.

[juzzo31]

i am very keen to see how this works out, i have a dying 22 behind my modded (chipped and boosted) td5 and a mate of mine just picked an early p38 4.6 for wrecking, so i have all the parts available but none of the knowledge

[nismine01]

Torque Convertor Technologies made and supplied a V8 TC for my TD5 D2, easy to deal with and very helpful with info (before sale), I would recommend a call to them.

03 95741499 Chris was the chap I spoke to.

Regards

Mike

[nismine01]

Torque Convertor Technologies made and supplied a V8 TC for my TD5 D2, easy to deal with and very helpful with info (before sale), I would recommend a call to them.

03 95741499 Chris was the chap I spoke to.

Regards

Mike

[roarin8]

when i get more time i'll post a proper update with pics etc. I hope to get everything back this thursday, so a trial fit up on the weekend is looking good! CAN'T WAIT!!! :D

[Dougal]

D2's never got a 24 (or a 4.6 except NAS where they have both). The extension shaft is quite a cheap part to replace so I'd look at that first before trying to drill a hardened shaft.

We got some 4.6 D2's in NZ. The only one I personally saw was bought by a colleague in the dying days of the D2. They may have been built as a run-out special.

[roarin8]

I have only seen one 4.6 d2 so far, and it was a retrofit. (not original) damn was it nice to drive though! :D

[clubagreenie]

Yes they are, but dam I'd like to sort out fuel consumption.

[roarin8]

Torque Convertor Technologies made and supplied a V8 TC for my TD5 D2, easy to deal with and very helpful with info (before sale), I would recommend a call to them.

03 95741499 Chris was the chap I spoke to.

Regards

Mike

Hi Mike was just wondering who/ how was your conversion done? i noticed you're in Adelaide. What advice did you get about this, and from whom? I really struggled to get anything from anyone, and used to be a Land Rover Mechanic.... :eek:

[roarin8]

Okay, so i've now been driving my Disco for a week with the hp24 installed. So far, no issues! I have noticed however that i have slightly higher EGT's than before, but i'm running the largest of the TC's so i attribute that to more load.
All up it wasn't too bad a conversion, with the major factor being the sourcing of the new flexplate, which my local machine shop organised, once i gave them some specs. We went with a 4 mm piece of spring steel, which they then drilled the crank pattern and TC pattern in to. We then sent it off to get hardened. meanwhile the original centre spacer was shortened to 31mm. Odd size, but if the new flexplate was 3mm like a standard one, the hub measurement would have been 32mm. This allowed a 2mm gap between the TC and flexplate when installed, which, once the tc bolts were tightened, would pull the TC forward out of the trans pump and allow for "ballooning" without binding up. 8 new longer high tensile bolts were needed to bolt it all together. The TC bolts were a little tricky to install, as the only means was through the little inspection plate in the bellhousing! Lot's of previous practice really paid off here, and not being in a hurry made a difference too. Other necessary mods include drilling and tapping the output shaft to accept the lt230 adaptor shaft retaining bolt which i shortened and loctited. On the R/H side chassis the slotted mount needs to be made larger, by about 22mm. The large L/H mount on the trans can be re-drilled by the same amount. The added bonus is both prop shafts bolt straight up! I haven't inspected either at full flex as yet though, so am not sure what impact there is with off road ability, but up and down the highway there aren't any probs. Another bonus is the trans ecu talks to this valve body! Shift pattern and lockup are all as it used to be. Slight annoyance with aligning the selector cable and xyz switch, and i still have to finalise the adjustment, but its usable at the moment, and no green flashing lights on the dash, so all good! :D

[Dougal]

Great summary. How is the shifting quality and rpm compared to pervious?

[roarin8]

cheers dougal, yeah shifting is generally the same although i notice in town (50km/h speed limit) it seems to hang on to 3rd instead of dropping to 4th. smooth changes normally and lockup at 85 when its warm enough as per the hp22 but with Stall being lower (by about 5-600 rpm) it sits at about 2100 rpm at 100 km/h (with 33's).

[juzzo31]

thats great to hear? who is your machine shop if you dont mind me asking? i may have to get them to make me a flex plate too. do the cooler lines bolt straight up to the 24?

[juzzo31]

roarin8, have you looked at the 300tdi flex plate? it has 8 bolts like the td5 and i was wandering if by some miracle its the same pcd as well and could possibly be used in this application. also is the round loom plug that goes into the side the same for both transmissions or do the pinouts need to be changed at all? thanks

[roarin8]

Hi Juzzo, The cooler lines bolt straight up to the 24, and the loom plug for the valve body are the same. I purchased a trans from a pre 99 p38. The pinouts appeared to be the same as the hp22, when i consulted my rave manual. The trans from the update p38 included CAN bus so i assumed that it wouldn't communicate. i figured though that the valve body from the old hp22 could have been swapped in if necessary. I noticed you mentioned a mate of yours is/was wrecking a p38, do you know what year? also if its not a 4.6 v8, it wont have a HP24. The 4.0 had a hp22 just like the td5 but with different bellhousing, which is very easy to swap out. As far as the 300 tdi flex plate, i'm not sure on the crank pattern, as i don't have one here to compare with. I did call my ol' boss man who owns a land rover garage and ask about that before i proceeded to make a custom plate and he assured me that a 300 tdi one would be different. i would be interested in checking for myself just out of interest though. From memory, the TC is again small like a td5 TC so i doubt that a bigger TC would fit onto the flex plate anyway. Again, i would need to have one here to compare. My machine shop could make you one no problem, but he would need your TC to be sent up for the pattern. i still have my old td5 plate here for a crank pattern. He didn't take a copy of my finished plate for reference as he believes that its most accurate if you go off the originals every time, and i agree, there's no room for error, as its a rotating assembly and if unbalanced could cause major issues, if not self destruction. :)

[juzzo31]

its an early (96 i think) 4.6 so yeah 24 with big tc. he also has an auto 300tdi. and an auto disco 300tdi. and an auto classic 3.5... yeah we have plenty of parts to choose from! the trans has finally given up fully now so when i can be bothered the trans and engine will come out for a freshen up, in the mean time i have the privilege of driving a horrible little daewoo so i want to get it done sooner rather than later. so once we start pulling things apart ill let you know what we find with flex plates. i was hoping the tdi one would be the same bolt pattern as the td5 because its round rather than triangle, so it should be stronger and could probably be re drilled for any torque converter

[clubagreenie]

The biggest TC you can fit to a TD is the medium from a 4.0V8. If the crank hub bolt pattern is the same (as V8) just use the V8 plate (also provided it matches the OD for the ring gear) as it'll bolt up at both ends.

[roarin8]

The biggest TC you can fit to a TD is the medium from a 4.0V8. If the crank hub bolt pattern is the same (as V8) just use the V8 plate (also provided it matches the OD for the ring gear) as it'll bolt up at both ends.
Haha as i stated earlier i am already running the LARGEST TC from the 4.6 in the td5 bellhousing, with no clearance problems at all. i have now done about 2000 km's since the install. :tease:
also the 4.0 trans is an hp22, so no advantage to using it. a medium TC cant be used with the hp24, unless you have it modified to suit the longer input shaft of the 24. i used the largest TC to avoid the expense of have a TC made up, at this stage all is well.

[juzzo31]

how does the larger torque converter drive compared to the small one that used to be in there? i am still in 2 minds as to which torque converter to run. does it stall up enough to get the engine on boost or is it really laggy?

[roarin8]

how does the larger torque converter drive compared to the small one that used to be in there? i am still in 2 minds as to which torque converter to run. does it stall up enough to get the engine on boost or is it really laggy?
well to be honest it is noticeably different from before, i wouldn't go pulling out in front of a semi or anything, but all things considered it still goes fine once moving. There are also other factors involved such as, your tyre size, any extra weight, turbo and air intake condition including intercooler, extra drag like a roof rack the list goes on.... my aim when i started this mod was to do it for less than the cost of a s/h trans from a wrecker, and it came in well under what the trans alone would've cost. saying that, i saved a lot of coin by not having a converter made up, i was quoted upwards of $1000, which would've doubled my overall expense! maybe down the track i'll get a medium sized converter made up to try and regain some kw's! :)

[Disco Muppet]

What are the specs on your car?
I know you're running 33s but barwork, rack, gearing, performance mods, etc?

[ashtrans]

how does the larger torque converter drive compared to the small one that used to be in there? i am still in 2 minds as to which torque converter to run. does it stall up enough to get the engine on boost or is it really laggy?

We tried the large 4.6 one on very tuned TD5's but found it made the engine both feel lazy on pickup and struggle to get enough revs to get on the turbo when pulling off,

Dave

[Redback]

We tried the large 4.6 one on very tuned TD5's but found it made the engine both feel lazy on pickup and struggle to get enough revs to get on the turbo when pulling off,

Dave

Could hat explain the higher EGTs, that he's mentioned??

Baz.

[Dougal]

Could hat explain the higher EGTs, that he's mentioned??

Baz.

Certainly at lower rpm. The engine will be under more torque load and will produce higher EGT until the turbo wakes up. Once you're past ~2000rpm and the converter is locked there won't be any difference.

I think this torque converter could work well with a compound turbo setup. But that's a whole project in itself.

[juzzo31]

Roarin 8, what flywheel are you using? With the td5 one having 3 bolt holes how did you do up the 4 bolt torque converter to the flex plate? I am getting a low mileage d2 v8 trans and torque converter so I'm thinking I'll put them in with a larger trans cooler and if the trans fails again I'll go for the hp24

[roarin8]

What are the specs on your car?
I know you're running 33s but barwork, rack, gearing, performance mods, etc?
Standard gearing and diffs, front winch bar with winch, rear bar, full length rack with side and rear awnings. +2' TF shocks and dislocation cones, 2' front springs, 3' rears, HD cromo drag and track rods. Standard engine, turbo and intercooler, but the boost is wound up a little and it has an TRS ecu remap. straight through muffler and 2.5 inch exhaust. On warm days over 29deg, It lags REALLY badly on take off, but it did that before the mod too. If you're on a hill it feels like it'll never get moving till the boost kicks in (i must look into that!).... Also i took the rack off a couple of days ago and that made a difference with lower egt's on the highway by about 100-150 degrees.

[roarin8]

Roarin 8, what flywheel are you using? With the td5 one having 3 bolt holes how did you do up the 4 bolt torque converter to the flex plate? I am getting a low mileage d2 v8 trans and torque converter so I'm thinking I'll put them in with a larger trans cooler and if the trans fails again I'll go for the hp24
If you're using that trans its a hp 22, so, you can use your old TC and flex plate etc etc... just swap your bellhousing over and you're set! funny thing is if its from a v8, chances are its had a harder time than a td5 one!
I did the tc bolts up through the little inspection hole underneath the bellhousing. It was a challenge but i didn't hurry and i had the help of a magnetic stick to hold it in the right spot. A larger cooler would help these autos out but be careful as it still needs to get warm enough to go into lockup on cooler days. i was thinking of running a larger cooler with a thermo fan but haven't really looked into it yet!

[clubagreenie]

Maybe look into a thermostat in the oil lines. Would cost around $100- in hose/fittings plus the t/stat.

[juzzo31]

I really want a lower stall torque converter, I did a stall test on it, mind you the rltrans slips, and got it up to 3200 rpm! So I'll make the medium size one I'm getting work. Thinking of taking the engine out too so there's no body in the way when I want to dummy it all up and so I can easily check everything over while I'm at it. The trans apparently has 5000km on it since new so it should be fine. With the trans cooler I was just going to install a p38 unit, apparently they're better?

[roarin8]

I really want a lower stall torque converter, I did a stall test on it, mind you the rltrans slips, and got it up to 3200 rpm! So I'll make the medium size one I'm getting work. Thinking of taking the engine out too so there's no body in the way when I want to dummy it all up and so I can easily check everything over while I'm at it. The trans apparently has 5000km on it since new so it should be fine. With the trans cooler I was just going to install a p38 unit, apparently they're better?
Haven't had much to do with or heard about the p38 coolers? maybe someone else can enlighten us??? as far as the medium TC goes, you'll have to compare overall and seated heights with the old one using straight edges and rulers! and unless you've found out about the v8 flex plate fitting the crank, you'll also need to make up a drive plate and i suspect machine down the centre hub as i did.... i'm only guessing though as i don't have a medium tc here to look at.

[roverv8]

If you're using that trans its a hp 22, so, you can use your old TC and flex plate etc etc... just swap your bellhousing over and you're set! funny thing is if its from a v8, chances are its had a harder time than a td5 one!


Are you saying the v8/td5 auto is the same, I thought i heard there is some differences at the back of the auto/housing somewhere? or something being longer on the v8 auto:confused:

[clubagreenie]

They should be the same at the rear as it's an interface between the auto and transfer case.

The 24 is longer in the pump section (10mm?) but the rest should be same same

[disco_ute]

How is the auto conversion going? I killed the auto in my TD5 a few months ago and I am looking for an upgrade.

[Tins]

How is the auto conversion going? I killed the auto in my TD5 a few months ago and I am looking for an upgrade.

I'd like to know too. A tutorial would be awesome as well....... [bigsmile1][bigsmile1]

[disco_ute]

I have bitten the bullet and got myself a recondition 4HP24 to put in my TD5 Ute.

For anyone that is interested in this conversion I have found a company in Melbourne that will make a flex plate to suit the Td5 to 4HP24 conversion and as result it will become an off the shelf item.
So if anyone else wants to do this now or soon PM me as it will help bring the initial cost of the plate down.

Mick

[Tins]

Just a FYI. I asked Dave Ashcroft about this a couple years ago:

I have the opportunity to purchase a low mileage ZF4HP24 out of a P38 Range Rover V8. I appreciate they are different, but I was wondering if I could make it fit without too much drama. Are you able to offer any insights, or point me towards someone or some website who can? The 4HP24 has the serial 0175667,and model number 1043 030 061.

It's not possible to convert the 061 to fit the td5 box, too many differences in the front, rear and valve body, even if you found a 4.0 p38 4hp22 this would be closer but it would still need a full strip to change the output shaft

Regards

Dave Ashcroft

[disco_ute]

Just a FYI. I asked Dave Ashcroft about this a couple years ago:

I have the opportunity to purchase a low mileage ZF4HP24 out of a P38 Range Rover V8. I appreciate they are different, but I was wondering if I could make it fit without too much drama. Are you able to offer any insights, or point me towards someone or some website who can? The 4HP24 has the serial 0175667,and model number 1043 030 061.

It's not possible to convert the 061 to fit the td5 box, too many differences in the front, rear and valve body, even if you found a 4.0 p38 4hp22 this would be closer but it would still need a full strip to change the output shaft

Regards

Dave Ashcroft

The guy who started this thread has done it. Also a few others in the uk.

[Tins]

Like I said, just a FYI. I wasn't saying the OP was wrong, I was merely putting that up to show that Dave says that particular trans (1043 030 061) was no good, and Dave Ashcroft is someone I listen to when transmissions are concerned.

[muddymatt]

Hi all.
I have an 04 td5 with lots of mods one of which is 4hp24 upgrade with 2400 stall speed converter etc.. it's going really well but I've had an issue since conversion and I can't figure it out...
Intermittent m s fault.
Is there a difference in the xyz switches between the 22 and 24? I'm using the original 22 switch.
The 22 switch needed a mounting hole enlarged a bit to fit and I can only use one mounting bolt.
I've tried another switch. Same fault.
New battery. Cleaned earth etc. No change.
It's not consistent fault. Seems worse when towing or when my wife drives!
I'm getting fed up with driving everywhere with my nanocom connected.
If I need a different xyz switch ill need the pin outs and splice the plugs I guess??
Any help appreciated!
Matt

[strangy]

What does Nanocom fault say?

[disco_ute]

Out of interest why did you put the HP24 in the TD5? My TD5 has S & M lights when i punch the throttle due to the tune and turbo i am running.

[muddymatt]

What does Nanocom fault say?
Position switch fault. The d or 3 or n disappears and the dash display goes blank or sometimes displays p then about 3 sec later it flashes m s .

[muddymatt]

Out of interest why did you put the HP24 in the TD5? My TD5 has S & M lights when i punch the throttle due to the tune and turbo i am running.

never heard that reason for m s before.
Changed box as I overheated and killed the 22 and got a brand new 24 for a good price.

[muddymatt]

Is there a different part number for a 4.6 disco 2 xyz switch?
Or is it the same as td5 one??

[Tins]

Duplicate post

[muddymatt]

Duplicate post

Really? Can you point me to the post with the answers I need please?

[Tins]

Really? Can you point me to the post with the answers I need please?

Sorry. I posted something again. There is no system to delete a post once made, so the only option is to delete what I wrote and put something else in the field. I can't answer your question.

[donh54]

Position switch fault. The d or 3 or n disappears and the dash display goes blank or sometimes displays p then about 3 sec later it flashes m s .

Exactly the fault you get when the xyz switch is loose.
You need to either fix the mounting setup, or get an appropriate switch.

[muddymatt]

Exactly the fault you get when the xyz switch is loose.
You need to either fix the mounting setup, or get an appropriate switch.

That's my question... Is there a different switch for use on a hp24 box?

[donh54]

If the mounting hole(s) have to be altered, it is obviously a different switch setup.
Since it seems to work for a while at least, the switch component itself may be the same, just the mounting is different between the two boxes.
I would be looking for a wrecked RR, or similar with the 24 box, and compare the two.

[disco_ute]

The xyz switches the same. Try readjusting the position.

[muddymatt]

Ok so i can't add pics here...
Check my switches album. There are two pics.


First pic is an eBay listing for a p38 xyz switch ie from a 24 box.
Second pic is my switch.
Note the mounting holes are reversed. The slot and solid bit are reversed.

[disco_ute]

Not sure where to look for the pictures, nothing in your album.. the Part number for the D2 V8 (HP24) is the same for the TD5 (HP22)

Where did you torque converter plate made for the conversion?

[muddymatt]

So I spoke to Dave Ashcroft.
The 22 has a O stamped on the end of the sector shaft.
The 24 does not.
The d2 switch must be used. A p38 one will not work.
So I need to drop the sump on my box and change the selector shaft for an o stamped one.
The shafts are very similar but the angle of the flat is different. That's why I keep getting m s faults.

So big thanks to Dave and I know what I'm doing next weekend.

I used my original d2 td5 flex plate and a custom built 2400rpm stall speed converter.

[disco_ute]

Good to know!

Thanks for the info. About to start my conversion, wish me luck!

[muddymatt]

So after lots of work. Some success. I lowered the box enough to get the selector shaft changed for the o stamped one and now I have much less s m faults. Yay.
It still will fault if you change from r to d too quickly but hopefully that's manageable. I'll strip my spare switch and see if I can clean up the contacts. I might refit that one to see if I can get it 100% right.
Took it for a test drive towing the horse float. Much better but when I got back engine temp was 107º!!!
I might need to wire in another fan.

[disco_ute]

Good work. My boxes are put also just need some clean bench space to switch some bits. My hp24 has the 0 stamped selector so I should be good to go!!

[disco_ute]

4hp24 is in! The lager TC is noticeable and have have some strange shifting going on and cruse control no longer is working. Just wondering if i should get hold of an auto ecu from a v8 disco??

[strangy]

Have you reset adaptive values in the EATECU?

[disco_ute]

Yeah 1st thing I did. Turns out I had a v8 auto ecu in it to start with ending in 010. I have now put a 040 ecu and will test it out in the morning.