Def swerves on left braking - HELP ME PLEASE

[bismillah]

Hi guys, I am writing because I need a hand in solving a problem in my Defender 90 MY'06. All original with 150k km

It's a couple of years that when I brake from a speed of at least 90km/h the car swerves dramatically to the left, making driving dangerous for me in case you need to brake suddenly. The problem for me is always present but of course is more noticeable as the speed increases. The car was seen by several mechanics without being able to fix anything.

The first thing that was controlled by all was the silent blocks that have been investigated searching any plays. All the bushings are new and there are not prensent plays of any kind.

A mechanic also noted by measuring the distance between front and rear hub that there is a differenze of 0,8mm between the right and the left (which is actually a lot) but also after correcting it nothing has changed in the braking problem.

Toe and wheels (i've tried also other 4 wheels) are ok


Than i've changed in order:

front and rear discs
front and rear calipers
adjusting the resistance of the front hubs in steering
brakes pump
ABS modulator (and also try the car without ABS ECU)
rubber hoses that go to the front calipers
changed all shock absorbers

I am driving the car I always have the impression that the right front wheel brakes less than the left, but this is only an impression.


tell me what the hell can I do?

[steveG]

My first thought was front radius arm bushes, as I've had the same problem in the past. If they have already been replaced it rules them out.

Do you have anywhere that you can do a simple test to check if one of the front brakes is more effective than the other? I'm thinking somewhere that isn't high traction - like a gravel road - that you can disable ABS and see if one wheel (likely the left front) tends to lock up first.

In your list of things replaced I don't see front brake pads. Did you replace those when the discs were replaced? Any chance you've got a mis-matched set of pads in the front?

Steve

[bismillah]

My first thought was front radius arm bushes, as I've had the same problem in the past. If they have already been replaced it rules them out.

I've put down the two radius arm to see the bushes but they were in good condition so I didn't changed them and tight well the nuts..


In your list of things replaced I don't see front brake pads. Did you replace those when the discs were replaced? Any chance you've got a mis-matched set of pads in the front?


Tnx Steve! Sure, brand new ;)

[MickMc]

If its pulling hard to the left, it may be as simple as the right hand front calliper sticking, it may be still working but if one or more of the dust seals have failed and dirt or dust has entered the calliper pot it may be fouling or sticking on the calliper bore causing drag. If you jack the vehicle up so both front wheels are in the air and have someone apply the brake pedal lightly and see if you can feel a difference in the force needed to rotate each tyre. There are machines around at various mechanics who can measure the braking efficiency as a percentage from one corner of your car to another.
If you find that calliper is sticking, simply pull the calliper pistons out and give them a quick scotch bright, preferably in a lathe if you have access to one, make sure the calliper bore is free of any rubbish and smooth, then replace the cylinders with a new seal kit installed and a little bit of lube.
If you rebuild the sticking calliper i would recommend you also do the one on the other side so you know they are both working at 100% and the vehicle doesn't start pulling the other way because you have done such a good job on that calliper that it is now more efficient than the one on the left

[bismillah]

If its pulling hard to the left, it may be as simple as the right hand front calliper sticking, it may be still working but if one or more of the dust seals have failed and dirt or dust has entered the calliper pot it may be fouling or sticking on the calliper bore causing drag. If you jack the vehicle up so both front wheels are in the air and have someone apply the brake pedal lightly and see if you can feel a difference in the force needed to rotate each tyre. There are machines around at various mechanics who can measure the braking efficiency as a percentage from one corner of your car to another.
If you find that calliper is sticking, simply pull the calliper pistons out and give them a quick scotch bright, preferably in a lathe if you have access to one, make sure the calliper bore is free of any rubbish and smooth, then replace the cylinders with a new seal kit installed and a little bit of lube.
If you rebuild the sticking calliper i would recommend you also do the one on the other side so you know they are both working at 100% and the vehicle doesn't start pulling the other way because you have done such a good job on that calliper that it is now more efficient than the one on the left

As I said in the first post, doing your reasoning at the time I've changed all 4 brake calipers with 4 new and the problem is the same. Identical! Obviusly always the sistem as been well purged. The problem can't be the callipers

[BilboBoggles]

when it pulls to the left - what happens? Is the steering wheel pullign out of your hand - ie if you let go of the wheel does it start turning on it's own?

If you hold the wheel straight - is it still pulling?

If you brake to the point of wheel lock up on a gravel surface - does one wheel always lock up in preference to the others - does the ABS kick in?

You don't mention brake pads - I assume these were changed?

[Steve UK]

Hi

I have the exact same problem.

I only got it after changing all brakes, rebuilding swivels (preload good) full polybush and new sumo bars with new ends. New BFG 255/85/16 mt. Wheel alignment set to zero. All parts oem or better.

Standard height springs and std shocks, condition unknown.

Normal braking no problem but when you brake harder it pulls to the right though, my Defender is LHD though? Braking really hard is sufficient to feel like rear steering and the front gets unsettled and locks the front right, maybe the centre bush on the rear axle?

My plan now is to lock the steering box straight ahead, I have been told there is a screw to do this and check the steering is all adjusted correctly.

Then renew the springs/shocks.

Subscribed.

Steve

[landiematt]

Have you checked the wheel bearings. You may have knock off. Even though you have done the disc's it may be a bit loose.
Matt.

[DiscoMick]

Just a guess as you've already tried so much, but could it be something to do with your tyres - maybe uneven wear, or differing weights or pressures?

[bismillah]

If you hold the wheel straight - is it still pulling?


absolutely yes. The problem is evident driving on a straight road at a speed of 80 - 90km / h holding the steering wheel straight and braking





If you brake to the point of wheel lock up on a gravel surface - does one wheel always lock up in preference to the others - does the ABS kick in?

The ABS kick in, and on a gravel road i can't see if one wheel lock up more than other...




You don't mention brake pads - I assume these were changed?

Yes brand new original




when it pulls to the left - what happens? Is the steering wheel pullign out of your hand - ie if you let go of the wheel does it start turning on it's own?

It's a very good question... I would say NO. Holding the steering wheel and braking you feel that you are going to the left with the front of the car and indeed you find looking in this direction even if you are always holding the steering well straight. If you don't hold the wheel it tend to rotate a minumum to the left but is a minumum seen the entity of the swerve

[bismillah]

Have you checked the wheel bearings. You may have knock off. Even though you have done the disc's it may be a bit loose.
Matt.

When I changed the four discs I changed all the wheel bearings:) Hub well munted and tight well. No play on the hub.

[bismillah]

Just a guess as you've already tried so much, but could it be something to do with your tyres - maybe uneven wear, or differing weights or pressures?

The problem is not in the tyres as my tyres are new and I have also an other 4 wheel and the problem is always present.:(

[n plus one]

Tail wagging the dog? Checked your trailing arm bushes? Can you also induce 'power steering' under full power in first or second gear?

[bismillah]

Tail wagging the dog? Checked your trailing arm bushes? Can you also induce 'power steering' under full power in first or second gear?

Yes, braking I have the impression that the back goes away and after (a lot of time) che ABS try to correct. The sensation is like turning the steering wheel when you brake even thought the steering wheel stay straight

The problem appears only braking. accelerating also with full power in any gear don't have any strange effect:)

[dullbird]

When you changed your calipers and discs did you check your brake lines also?

I don't know whether a bulging brake line on one side could cause something this dramatic but its worth a check if you haven't.

[lt8x7]

It's a very good question... I would say NO. Holding the steering wheel and braking you feel that you are going to the left with the front of the car and indeed you find looking in this direction even if you are always holding the steering well straight. If you don't hold the wheel it tend to rotate a minumum to the left but is a minumum seen the entity of the swerve



It sounds like the rear axle is moving away from its mountings on one side under braking. This would cause the car to 'slew' sideways like you describe.

[BilboBoggles]

Agree with it8x7. If it were uneven brakes the wheel would pull violently, and you would definitely notice one wheel locking up on dirt. You might be able to simulate the axle movement by putting the hand brake on and getting someone to push it backward and forward, you may see some interesting axle movement.

[JDNSW]

The most common cause of this effect is free play on one of the lower links locating the rear axle, most commonly the bush where it attaches to the axle.

John

[bismillah]

The most common cause of this effect is free play on one of the lower links locating the rear axle, most commonly the bush where it attaches to the axle.

John

Thanks John!

Last mechanic who deal with my car said he checked all the bushing and he didn't found any plays. Do I have to believe him? How can I check more?

My point of view is that the the problem is something that seems to be ok but on the other hand is not...
We are talking about a car that has 150k km and is kept perfectly with passionate attention :mad:

[bismillah]

You might be able to simulate the axle movement by putting the hand brake on and getting someone to push it backward and forward, you may see some interesting axle movement.

I will try... good idea:spudnikhalfback:

[JDNSW]

Thanks John!

Last mechanic who deal with my car said he checked all the bushing and he didn't found any plays. Do I have to believe him? How can I check more?

My point of view is that the the problem is something that seems to be ok but on the other hand is not...
We are talking about a car that has 150k km and is kept perfectly with passionate attention :mad:

As suggested, but also, get underneath and try a lever between the axle and the lower link end - it should be impossible to get any signs of movement, just a bit of 'spring'. Make sure that the bolt appears to be in the centre of the loop on the end of the link.Have a close look at the front of the link - look for loose bolts and signs of any movement under the big nut. This tightens against a shoulder on the link, but the tube through the bush may still be loose, although in this case it usually clicks.

[wrinklearthur]

Do as John has put forward, first.

If that doesn't cure the problem then change both front springs, it sounds to me that the LHS front spring has a incorrect rate, with a softer response to load and that also would cause the car to steer to the left as the axles articulate more together on that side.

You will find some paint marks on the coils of each spring ( talking standard Land Rover ones only ) if you can record those colours that are painted on them and post what they are on here, there is a list on AULRO to be able to check that you have the correct rated coil spring for each corner of the car.

Thinking back from this - ( but doesn't apply if your car is empty and without any heavy accessories ), if the springs are the correct rate for their position, then a poorly loaded car with a top heavy roof rack will have the exact same effect if the weight isn't distributed evenly. Keep always your heaviest parts of your load at the bottom and only ever carry light weight on the roof rack.
.

[bismillah]

Thinking back from this - ( but doesn't apply if your car is empty and without any heavy accessories ), if the springs are the correct rate for their position, then a poorly loaded car with a top heavy roof rack will have the exact same effect if the weight isn't distributed evenly. Keep always your heaviest parts of your load at the bottom and only ever carry light weight on the roof rack.
.

Car empty, without any accessories. Like new:angel:

[bismillah]

If that doesn't cure the problem then change both front springs, it sounds to me that the LHS front spring has a incorrect rate, with a softer response to load and that also would cause the car to steer to the left as the axles articulate more together on that side.

You will find some paint marks on the coils of each spring ( talking standard Land Rover ones only ) if you can record those colours that are painted on them and post what they are on here, there is a list on AULRO to be able to check that you have the correct rated coil spring for each corner of the car.
I will look for those colous but springs has never been touched and my car, when new, didn't have this problem:twisted: even though I will look

[DiscoV8scott]

Do you happen to get any shuddering around 90/100kmh? I had a similar problem but it was almost constant, I rebuilt the swivels and new bearings. New tyres and brake lines. Found the problem was the front steering arm, pulled it off and there was the smallest bend in the centre ( rock damage ). Hope this can help.

[bismillah]

I will look for those colous but springs has never been touched and my car, when new, didn't have this problem:twisted: even though I will look

Here are the colours..

http://diafino.altervista.org/colore%201.JPG
http://diafino.altervista.org/colore%202.JPG
http://diafino.altervista.org/colore%203.JPG
http://diafino.altervista.org/colore%204.JPG
http://diafino.altervista.org/colore%205.JPG

:angel:

[bismillah]

Do you happen to get any shuddering around 90/100kmh? I had a similar problem but it was almost constant, I rebuilt the swivels and new bearings. New tyres and brake lines. Found the problem was the front steering arm, pulled it off and there was the smallest bend in the centre ( rock damage ). Hope this can help.

Actually a couple of months before I became aware of this braking problem, happened the at 90-100 km / h (especially when I leave the throttle at that speed) that the steering wheel started to shake. The whole thing was rod ends.:wasntme:

[Dopey]

[QUOTE=bismillah;2189114]

"Toe and wheels (i've tried also other 4 wheels) are ok"

Just wondering, what are your measurements for the Toe in or Toe out?
A lot of Defenders get set up wrong.....

Regards,
Mike.

[n plus one]

[QUOTE=bismillah;2189114]

"Toe and wheels (i've tried also other 4 wheels) are ok"

Just wondering, what are your measurements for the Toe in or Toe out?
A lot of Defenders get set up wrong.....

Regards,
Mike.

Good point, everybody just sets ' em toe in by force of habit/ignorance.

I wonder if part of the issue is road camber sensitivity - is the issue apparent in a non-cambered surface?

[wrinklearthur]

[quote=90@;2192097]

I wonder if part of the issue is road camber sensitivity - is the issue apparent in a non-cambered surface?

Try the braking test on a flat surface like a old air strip or large car park.

Ref; http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/152011-what-coil-springs-these.html#post1696064

90 4 seat station wagon (2550 Kg).
Front - Passenger side REB500220 Red/green/orange
Front - Driver's side REB500200 Red/green/white
Rear - Passenger side RKB500310 White/green/purple
Rear - Driver's side RKB500270 White/green/pink

90 4 seat station wagon (2400 Kg).
Front - Driver's side REB500200 Red/green/white
Front - Passenger side REB500220 Red/green/orange
Rear - Driver's side RKB500290 Red/green/green
Rear - Passenger side RKB500280 Red/green/red

110 heavy duty and all 130 (3500Kg).
Front - Driver's side NRC 9448 Blue/red
Front - Passenger side NRC 9449 Yellow/white
Rear - Both sides RKB101111 Purple/brown

-------------------------------------------------------

Ref; PART (http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Spring_rates.html)


APPLICATION Right Hand Drive VEHICLES

Is your Defender Left hand Drive?

.

[wrinklearthur]

Further to the above.

Could your Land Rover springs been set up for RHD instead of LHD road conditions?

Another line of reasoning is, if one of your springs been incorrectly tempered and left soft at manufacture, it could then settled since your Land Rover has been built.

I had a look at your photo's and they are the colour's I referred to, but some of them are a bit hard for me to see.

You would need to give those colours a wipe with a wet cloth to enhance their colour, but there is no need to post more photo's, just write down the colour on each spring with the springs position and post that info here.
.

[wrinklearthur]

Actually a couple of months before I became aware of this braking problem, happened the at 90-100 km / h (especially when I leave the throttle at that speed) that the steering wheel started to shake. The whole thing was rod ends.:wasntme:

Loose / worn rod end will cause those shakes, as well as bushes that have gone soft or worn in the suspension.

If the problem remains after any replacements, pay special attention to things such as, the toe in/out adjustment to the tie rod, make sure this has been set correctly for your model and the caster angle is back to it's original specification.
.

[bismillah]

[QUOTE=bismillah;2189114]

"Toe and wheels (i've tried also other 4 wheels) are ok"

Just wondering, what are your measurements for the Toe in or Toe out?
A lot of Defenders get set up wrong.....

Regards,
Mike.


pay special attention to things such as, the toe in/out adjustment to the tie rod, make sure this has been set correctly for your model and the caster angle is back to it's original specification.
.


This is the result
http://diafino.altervista.org/image.jpeg
:D

[bismillah]

[quote=90@;2192097]I wonder if part of the issue is road camber sensitivity - is the issue apparent in a non-cambered surface?

No, the problem has nothing to do with the road shape: going at low speed like in citty the car is apparently normal, but increasing the speed (more or less 90 km / h) it starts to show a deviation that needs to be corrected by turning the steering wheel to the right. The problem is very evident compared to the shape of the road. The problem always occurs, sometimes higher and sometimes lower. Braking from a speed of 110km / h is actually to be afraid.

The problem always occurs on the motorway at any lane ( in the right lane sloping to the right and in the left sloping to the left, both uphill and downhill (much more of course)

[bismillah]

[quote=n plus one;2192109]

Is your Defender Left hand Drive?

.

No, drive on the right

[bismillah]

[quote=n plus one;2192109]
Ref; http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/152011-what-coil-springs-these.html#post1696064

90 4 seat station wagon (2550 Kg).
Front - Passenger side REB500220 Red/green/orange
Front - Driver's side REB500200 Red/green/white
Rear - Passenger side RKB500310 White/green/purple
Rear - Driver's side RKB500270 White/green/pink

90 4 seat station wagon (2400 Kg).
Front - Driver's side REB500200 Red/green/white
Front - Passenger side REB500220 Red/green/orange
Rear - Driver's side RKB500290 Red/green/green
Rear - Passenger side RKB500280 Red/green/red

110 heavy duty and all 130 (3500Kg).
Front - Driver's side NRC 9448 Blue/red
Front - Passenger side NRC 9449 Yellow/white
Rear - Both sides RKB101111 Purple/brown

-------------------------------------------------------

Ref; PART (http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Spring_rates.html)



Further to the above.

Could your Land Rover springs been set up for RHD instead of LHD road conditions?

Another line of reasoning is, if one of your springs been incorrectly tempered and left soft at manufacture, it could then settled since your Land Rover has been built.

I had a look at your photo's and they are the colour's I referred to, but some of them are a bit hard for me to see.

You would need to give those colours a wipe with a wet cloth to enhance their colour, but there is no need to post more photo's, just write down the colour on each spring with the springs position and post that info here.
.


NRC9446 BLUE-GREEN 90 FRONT DRIVER
NRC9447 BLUE-YELLOW 90 FRONT PASSENGER
NRC9462 GREEN-YELL-RED 90 REAR DRIVER HD
NRC9463 GREEN-YELL-WHIT 90 REAR PASSENGER HD

it seems to be ok :D

[wrinklearthur]

Sorry, I only have a very basic understanding of written Italian, although looking at your list I did spot this anomaly.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/179.jpg

Get your ( Convergenza Finale, 1.2 mm ) back to -1.00 mm or 0.0 mm toe-out at least. 1.2 mm toe-in is a bit too far the other way and will lead to excessive tyre wear.

Your spring colours do look to be in their correct positions for your model Defender.

Have you found a suitable flat area to test the braking response, unless you are happy with a location you have selected already?

Temporarily try your test again with the anti-sway bar disconnected, that should show after pulling up if one of the springs is out of specification, as the car should remain settled on that corner.
If the car straightens back to it's correct height, the springs would be working correctly and you would then need to go back to investigating the brake components for faults.
.

[bismillah]

Temporarily try your test again with the anti-sway bar disconnected, that should show after pulling up if one of the springs is out of specification, as the car should remain settled on that corner.
If the car straightens back to it's correct height, the springs would be working correctly and you would then need to go back to investigating the brake components for faults.
.


I just installed the anti-sway bar when I did the photos to the springs: they have been removed from new and now I have reinstalled when I changed the shock absorbers for maximum stability under heavy braking. So my car has done 150k miles without anti-roll bars, now I have it on but the problem is the same.

[bismillah]

Dear distant friends who are giving me a big help. I wanted to ask you a couple of things, more...

Last night I tried to take a look at all values ​​and errors present in the ABS ECU; looking at the various parameters have met the speed at which the four wheels rotate: standing still are all pretty much to 0 while they apparently normaly increase with the speed. One of these values​​, however, is not coherent: the rotation speed of the left rear wheel marks 397km / h from stand still and increases in an apparently correct way with speed increase. However, this means that the ECU receives the signal that the left rear wheel always turns 397 km/h most of the other

Could it be the faulty sensor? it might be cause the problem?

After this discovery I went to a testing center where I asked to valutate the braking efficency on each wheel on rollers but thay have not been able to do it as one wheel was made ​​to turn the traction control intervened. They have proposed me to remove the fuse of the ABS / ETC but I'm gone. Is this thing possible? which fuse would I eventually take off?

Thanks

[dullbird]

That's quite interesting

Although I don't see how a faulty sensor would cause the car to start drifting as you gain speed.

Perhaps the sensor is ok and the speed difference is due to something else??? I'm finding it hard to understand the part on the rear left wheel it appears the speed increases like the others on the reading from stand still (is that right?)

So if its not coherent is it reading faster or slower than the others?

Could it be that the problem could be in your diff perhaps?? Or damage to the axle?? I don't actually know I'm just throwing it out there.

Could it be you have a wheel bearing tighter or looser than the other 3?

Have you ever checked to see if there is any noticeable difference in heat in all 4 wheels and tyres after a journey where you have had to drive got a long period or use the brakes a fair bit.

[wrinklearthur]

------- Could it be the faulty sensor? it might be cause the problem? ------

Those front sensors are prone to breaking the wire in the flexible cable going into the sensor and you can test this by uncoupling the plug at the chassis, then whilst measuring across the wires to the sensor with a multimeter set for measuring ohms, pull and push the flexible cable to see if there is any disruption to the measurement.
.

There is no difference between the front to the back sensors except for the length of the cable, on the Discovery series one the back cable is longer and can be used in the front if it is carefully wound up and then cable tied out of the way.

I have not done this test myself, other than tapping a sensor further in at the front hub to make it give a more consistent reading and then resetting the ECU by the paper clip method. This procedure has worked for me on my D1 with it's ABS light now staying off after it moves a few metres.
.

[bismillah]

That's quite interesting

Although I don't see how a faulty sensor would cause the car to start drifting as you gain speed.

Perhaps the sensor is ok and the speed difference is due to something else??? I'm finding it hard to understand the part on the rear left wheel it appears the speed increases like the others on the reading from stand still (is that right?)

So if its not coherent is it reading faster or slower than the others?
Yes, stay sill 3 wheels are at 0 and 1 at 397km/h going the speed rises with this bias: 1km/h for all 398km/h; 2km/h for all 399km/h, etc...




Have you ever checked to see if there is any noticeable difference in heat in all 4 wheels and tyres after a journey where you have had to drive got a long period or use the brakes a fair bit.
In my old discs and pads i didn't notice any difference between rear left and rear right...

[bismillah]

I did a test: I disconnected the ABS fuse. In this way, the ABS and TC does not work and possible problems of sensors have no effect.

The result? Great loking brakes but unfortunately always inclined to left. Damn.

A friend advised me to check

- Steering box has come loose

- Play in the steering box

- Play in the intermediate shaft on the steering column

what about?

[bismillah]

Hi guys!! I did the braking test on rollers. Every wheel brake good and the difference between the front is 2% and between the two rear is 3% the tollerance in 30%:o


So.. it is not a braking problem...:(

Let's look to the Steering box?

[lt8x7]

I still say if it goes left without 'turning' the steering wheel, then it has to be axle movement.

[bismillah]

I still say if it goes left without 'turning' the steering wheel, then it has to be axle movement.

You are going straight... 90km/h...100km/h...110km/h.. holding the steering wheel straight perfectily straight you push the brake slowly and you see that you are going in the left lane but you are always holding the steering wheel straight!! At this speed I think it's dangerous to push harder a brake. At lower speed (like 70km/h) if you brake nearly to the ABS action always holding the steering wheel straigt you stop looking the left.

To brake straingt I have to rotate the steering wheel to the right when I brake

[bismillah]

I still say if it goes left without 'turning' the steering wheel, then it has to be axle movement.

So.. It's not easy to answer if the steering wheel turn or not because, as already said if you hold the steering wheel straight and you brake you go left eventhough you are always holding the steering wheel. Also if you leave the steering it doesn't move when you brake or if it moves is a coseguence of the deviation. It's also true that if I brake turning the steering wheel right I can (more or less) brake straight (at 60-70 km/h) (at 100-110 km/h never tried, you have be very brave)

[JDNSW]

The symptoms suggest it has to be either the front or rear axle moving when braking. Just about has to be the bushes at the end of the locating links front and rear, although a rusted or damaged mount that is flexing could also cause this.

John

[wrinklearthur]

The symptoms suggest it has to be either the front or rear axle moving when braking. Just about has to be the bushes at the end of the locating links front and rear, ---------

Go through this list of parts for the back axle, check for any loose hardware, paying particular attention for any signs of wear to the swiveling parts and parts that have rubber in them.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/07/58.jpg

.

[bismillah]

Hi guys, I still need some information.
A friend pointed out that to go straight with my car it is necessary to hold the steering wheel slightly to the right, and that in any case the play from the center position of the steering wheel rotating to the right is greater than to the left. He may not have anything to do with the problem but I wanted to ask what is the procedure to center al the steering.

If I am not mistaken you must first center the steering box, then the wheels and the steering wheel at the end. That's right? How?

[Dopey]

This link may help you,

Steering box adjustment, backlash, drag link 's... - Defender Source (http://www.defendersource.com/forum/showthread.php't=1861)

Regards,
Mike.

[bismillah]

Hi guys. I had time to study the steering. First of all I put front of the car on two stands to easily turn the steering wheel.

I then went under the car and I told a friend to turn the steering wheel until from the fork on the steering box's arm I could see the hole on the steering box. I then put a screw that fits perfectly.

With the steering arm perfectly in the center I noticed that the steering wheel in the car was not at all in the center, indeed practically turned by 45 °.

I then removed the steering column and put the steering wheel straight and then turning the steering tie rod I made the car go straight.

Finally I tried to move the screw to adjust the steering box play. It's a 19 that is located in the middle of the steering box with a Torx 25 in the center. The 19 I unscrewed the but I could not move the torx. Perhaps also because it is in a really awkward position.

However the steering seems to me much more precise, on the brakes the problem is still present. Unfortunately.

[workingonit]

Have you owned the vehicle from new? Have you or someone else replaced the steering box? The drop arm and steering box are splined to align. Has someone ignored the alignment splines and forced the drop arm onto the box? If this were the case then I would guess the steering box is not centred internally as you drive. If the steering wheel position was OK from factory then to get 45 degrees means something badly worn, something has taken a big bump or someone has assembled something wrong when doing a repair. Just my guess. Good luck.

[n plus one]

45degrees on the wheel ain't that much is it- only one eight of a turn? I've had mine out that far just from giving the drag link a nudge on something I didn't even notice while out wheeling.

[workingonit]

I'm guessing you drove your vehicle with the steering wheel misaligned, as I have also done.

But it sounds like the vehicle in question has been driven with the steering wheel in the correct position, with the wheel alignment tuned to that steering wheel position (from what I can gather from the thread, unless I missed something). If the 45 degree error has the box off centre, to the left for example, then the steering box would be under constant hydraulic pressure assist to 'turn left'. If this is the case, then the assist to left may not be noticeable at speed because of the leverage you can easily apply on the steering wheel, until braking.

We are now told the steering wheel and steering box have been aligned, so in theory the tyres are no longer aligned, scrubbing. Is it possible the pull is still evident because the problem has been transferred from the power steering unit to the tyres - hence no apparent significant improvement? Although I am guessing the pull would now be in the opposite direction now, ie right?

Again, just my theory.

[n plus one]

I'm guessing you drove your vehicle with the steering wheel misaligned, as I have also done.

But it sounds like the vehicle in question has been driven with the steering wheel in the correct position, with the wheel alignment tuned to that steering wheel position (from what I can gather from the thread, unless I missed something). If the 45 degree error has the box off centre, to the left for example, then the steering box would be under constant hydraulic pressure assist to 'turn left'. If this is the case, then the assist to left may not be noticeable at speed because of the leverage you can easily apply on the steering wheel, until braking.

We are now told the steering wheel and steering box have been aligned, so in theory the tyres are no longer aligned, scrubbing. Is it possible the pull is still evident because the problem has been transferred from the power steering unit to the tyres - hence no apparent significant improvement? Although I am guessing the pull would now be in the opposite direction now, ie right?

Again, just my theory.

Yeah, could be. I read what's been done a little differently to you ( but that's humans for ya'). Either way I would have thought that if it's i the steering it would now be apparent when driving not just braking?

Same as you though - I'm just speculating :)

[bismillah]

Have you owned the vehicle from new?

Yes

Have you or someone else replaced the steering box?

No, never


The drop arm and steering box are splined to align. Has someone ignored the alignment splines and forced the drop arm onto the box?

How can I know?


something has taken a big bump or someone has assembled something wrong when doing a repair. Just my guess. Good luck.

No bump, but once I had the steering box vibrating at 100km/h and the mechanic changed the joint of the stiring rod

[bismillah]

We are now told the steering wheel and steering box have been aligned, so in theory the tyres are no longer aligned, scrubbing. Is it possible the pull is still evident because the problem has been transferred from the power steering unit to the tyres - hence no apparent significant improvement? Although I am guessing the pull would now be in the opposite direction now, ie right?

I did all the procedure but the problem when I brake is still present always identical. :censored: Sure that I moved the position where the stiring box stay when I go straight, now I think is correct as from the fork behind the steering arm I can see the hole in the steering box and this is the centre right?

[bismillah]

Yeah, could be. I read what's been done a little differently to you ( but that's humans for ya'). Either way I would have thought that if it's i the steering it would now be apparent when driving not just braking?

Same as you though - I'm just speculating :)

Now the steering seems more... direct? I have much less play in the straight position. the steering is improved.

Is it possible that everything I've done has never had a minimum of improvement?

[bismillah]

up :(

[workingonit]

Hmmm...my belly button's got fluff in it!?

[workingonit]

You have checked many things and replaced many things - but no fix.

You have identified two issues - sensors and steering box alignment.

On 30th July you say you did roller test with 2 to 3 percent difference. Was the test done with the ABS fuse in or out?

Have you had steering alignment checked professionally since finding steering box not aligned properly? On 16th August you say there was steering bump at 100k/h and mechanic changed steering rod joints. Was vehicle pulling left before mechanic changed steering rod joints?

Regarding 'rear steer'. You say rear rubber bushes are good. You say when braking gently from high speed you still get left pull. Is the pull still very strong or does the strength of the pull match the gentleness of the braking. Those of you who have experienced rear steer, is it only evident with strong braking, or always evident regardless of whether soft or hard braking?

Otherwise, I think you are going to have to patiently re-check everything from front to rear again.

[wrinklearthur]

Have you experienced any improvement at all since making all those changes?

My guess now is the brakes are working fine on the side that the Land Rover is pulling to. It could be that there is something wrong on the other side that is reducing the braking effect on that side ( maybe a mechanic with oily fingers contaminated the pads when they were fitted ) .

Change all the pads for new ( again ) and look carefully at the calipers in case they are sticking.

Watch out for any oil leaks that may be coming out of the hub seal.

The ABS modulator operation is the the next thing on the list if the above doesn't work.
.

[workingonit]

Wrinklearthur, I was pondering your quote. If we had the right people in place we would not have military hardware!? Other than to play with of course :)

[bismillah]

As always a big thanks for all the answers dear friends



You have checked many things and replaced many things - but no fix.

I think you're right :D

You have identified two issues - sensors and steering box alignment.


On 30th July you say you did roller test with 2 to 3 percent difference. Was the test done with the ABS fuse in or out?

The test was done initially without the fuse because the TC/ABS started as the the test run (the test wasn't able to test 4x4 veicle) and we find this irrilevant difference. I also drove the car without the fuse and the problem was identical, identical, identical. Some days after I repeated the test with the fuse in elsewhere and was the same.

The strange speed in the rear left wheel is a bug of my nanocom as with my friend's newer instrument al the speeds are ok.



Have you had steering alignment checked professionally since finding steering box not aligned properly?

No, I did myself.



On 16th August you say there was steering bump at 100k/h and mechanic changed steering rod joints. Was vehicle pulling left before mechanic changed steering rod joints?

I remember the car braking straight since new, after I had this problem of steering bump that was fixed by a mechanic changing front bushings and three rod joints. After some month I realize this braking problem ... I also told to all mechanics that I realize the problem some month after this fix (as in this time I didn't brake from 100km/h so much) but all the mechanics said it is all ok... but if I foud the steering box not centred they have not looked good..



Regarding 'rear steer'. You say rear rubber bushes are good. You say when braking gently from high speed you still get left pull. Is the pull still very strong or does the strength of the pull match the gentleness of the braking. Those of you who have experienced rear steer, is it only evident with strong braking, or always evident regardless of whether soft or hard braking?


Imagine you driving straight at 100km/h. One hand on the steering wheel, the car go straight and it doesn't need any correction. You press the brake as you what to slow down and, always with the steering wheel in the same position you feel the car going left. The feeling is like if you from the center point turn the steering wheel to the left. Therefore, when I slow down normally I have always to compensate a little bit with the steering wheel to the right but I have to turn. Obviously if at that speed I brake strong wow the car turns left.

The problem is evident al relatively hi speed.. If you brake from 50-60km/h seems there is no problem



Have you experienced any improvement at all since making all those changes?

No, dam


My guess now is the brakes are working fine on the side that the Land Rover is pulling to. It could be that there is something wrong on the other side that is reducing the braking effect on that side ( maybe a mechanic with oily fingers contaminated the pads when they were fitted ) .

Change all the pads for new ( again ) and look carefully at the calipers in case they are sticking.

Watch out for any oil leaks that may be coming out of the hub seal.

I personally changed all the disks, calliper and whell brearing thinking to solve the problem but no modification. I already changed three set of braking pads. Now I have all original LR.


The ABS modulator operation is the the next thing on the list if the above doesn't work.
.

I said I tryed to mount ad Abs modulator lend from a friend. The same..

[workingonit]

Did your mechanic do any other 'repairs' apart from replace the ball joints? Wheel bearings? Swivel pin? Have you done any repair?

Pity the steering wheel was removed to get rid of 45 degrees. I would have tried adjusting the drag link length to get rid of the 45 degrees provided the drag link/track rod were not bent. With difficulty I just measured my 82 Range and 94 Disco - 1230mm centre to centre for track rod and 925mm for drag link - Haynes manual says 1230 and 924. Don't know if your vehicle requires these settings. If yes, but you find your measurements are different you may have some cause for concern regarding alignment. Toe out (not in) between 0mm and 2mm. It is the only obvious problem you have found and I think the alignment is still not correct - that is my bet.

The manuals say pulling to one side can be brake pad material (rule that out), seized caliper (rule that out), lose caliper bolts (?), suspension rubber wear (?), wheel bearing wear (?), swivel pin pre-load (? and add to that bearing race for swivel pin not seated properly). I would be checking all the (?) again after checking steering alignment.

Steering box. I would expect normal wear to be even side to side and you would pull left or right just as often. Is power steering hydraulic pressure still uneven after getting rid of 45 degrees? I doubt that it is the steering box.

If your mechanic did nothing else other than the ball joints then all the mechanic seemed to have done was not adjust the distances properly on track and/or drag links ie you get 45 degrees. Is it possible worn ball joints compensated for wear elsewhere. Once the ball joints were new and tight then compensation was no longer available to the other worn item that we may be seeking?

Unlikely an issue, is your rear axle controlled by an A frame? Check chassis mount brackets have not been crushed or misaligned (by landing on a rock).

Getting to the point that I can't think of anything else. Maybe you should trade it for a nice Italian sports car...or a G-Wagon if you want to continue 4x4ing :)

[wrinklearthur]

I wonder if one of the flexible brake line on the front has delaminated inside itself, or there is some rubbish in one of the brake lines?

Fluid may be starting to go to the caliper on the faulty corner than get shut off.
.

[BilboBoggles]

The way to check for uneven braking is to try hard braking at various speed on a dirt track. If you have uneven braking you will find that one wheel will lock up in preference to the others. Better to try this without the ABS fuse - alternatively you can disable abs by pressing the brake pedal 10 times in the space of 1 minute before you start the engine. (Your ABS light will flash, at least that's how I remember it). Hard braking will lock up all four wheels in theory if your ABS is off. What you want to do is practice getting to the point of lock up and then a little bit more. You can see which side is locking up by looking at the skid marks. ( I've tried this on my lawn, but my wife was a little upset...)

[workingonit]

Seems all four wheels were tested and only a few percent difference if I read correctly.

I wonder if you could see some unusual component movement by putting the vehicle up on stands. Get all four wheels spinning. While someone is braking someone else can watch the under carriage for movements or listen for unexpected noises?

[workingonit]

Something odd is going on with this post...ignore