Drivetrain click-clack - what to replace?

[Samblers]

Had my 2010 Def 110 for 2years. Had the usual clunky gear change noises and drivetrain backlash looked at by LR under warranty and more-or-less resolved by replacing various parts. I think this included drive flanges and also some splined thingo in the gearbox/transfer case which was worn? My diff hasn’t been touched I don’t think. LR were a bit unclear on what they did but I wasn’t paying so didn’t care too much.

The dealers attitude at the time was ‘yeah we’ll do this stuff for you now because its in warranty and you’re whingeing and we get paid for it, but youre wasting your time because the noise will be back within 6 months’.

Well 6 months on, I’m out of warranty and its clickety-clacking around under there. Not as bad as previously, but its there and its still a concern to me. The click-clacks are on take-up of power after a new gear is selected and also on the back-forth rocking of the car when, say, going over a low speed speedbump.

So what parts should I be relacing? – I’m thinking of the relatively straightforward/ inexpensive usual culprits for the LR drivetrain looseness? I don’t want to fit expensive upgrades (say lockers) just for the sake of it, but I’m happy to spend a little time and money upgrading suspect inferior LR parts for something better.

I have used the car occasionally for towing and sometimes give it a good crack off-road, but nothing (too) abusive I feel. Pulled the occasional tree out too! I want this car to be capable.

Cheers, Sam

[BilboBoggles]

IMHO - Chasing clunks in a defender drivetrain will drive you mental and broke. There are many places for clunks to be introduced - and they will clunk quite happily for 100,000's of k.s. So if it's minor you may want a better radio...

BUT having said that - there is an intermediate shaft that connects the output of the gearbox to the input of the transfer case. This has some splines that can wear severely if not lubricated at the factory. Once those splines go you lose drive. If lubed correctly then they can last a long time. There is not much you can do about this failure as it's hard to predict. So yet again it might be cheaper to drive until it fails and then have the shaft replaced by a land rover guru who will lube the crap out of it.....

The axle drive flanges are a common cause of clunks. There are splines that connect the inner drive axles to the wheel hub to provide drive. These wear readily - especially if not lubed at the factory. I was getting 40,000k's out of a set on my TD5 defender, and had them replaced under warranty twice. But after warranty I fitted a set of "fake" Maxidrive heavy duty flanges - I bought from the UK for about $50 and these have now done 160,000 ks and no clunk.

(Although I also had the hubs converted back to older style county hubs with oil lubed bearings at the same time, so that might also be why they lasted so long.)

Clunks can also be cause by the rear axle A frame ball joint. Again the factory one can last well or wear out quickly depending on if the grease monkeys in the factory turned up to work. I replaced mine with a greasable adjustable maxidrive version jsut recently and that will fix the issue forever.

The Radius arm bushes can cause some noises if worn - but probably not likely on a newer Defender unless you have an oil leak.

Another great place for clunks is the Center diff in the transfer case. Sometimes these just come out of the factory clunky. It will last a long time making all sorts of noises. Just don't do too much wheel spinning without center diff locked...

Another interesting place for clicks is the clutch plate. On a Puma there are springs in the clutch plate that take up rotational vibration. Many Puma's have poor quality clutch plates and the springs become loose. Most commonly heard as the death shake when you switch the engine off. These springs can cause all sorts of noises.

[Samblers]

Excellent post, thank you so much. My comments in red


IMHO - Chasing clunks in a defender drivetrain will drive you mental and broke. There are many places for clunks to be introduced - and they will clunk quite happily for 100,000's of k.s. So if it's minor you may want a better radio...

BUT having said that - there is an intermediate shaft that connects the output of the gearbox to the input of the transfer case. This has some splines that can wear severely if not lubricated at the factory. Once those splines go you lose drive. If lubed correctly then they can last a long time. There is not much you can do about this failure as it's hard to predict. So yet again it might be cheaper to drive until it fails and then have the shaft replaced by a land rover guru who will lube the crap out of it..... I think this is what LR did - replaced etc. Impossible to tell whether lubed correctly though

The axle drive flanges are a common cause of clunks. There are splines that connect the inner drive axles to the wheel hub to provide drive. These wear readily - especially if not lubed at the factory. I was getting 40,000k's out of a set on my TD5 defender, and had them replaced under warranty twice. But after warranty I fitted a set of "fake" Maxidrive heavy duty flanges - I bought from the UK for about $50 and these have now done 160,000 ks and no clunk. I think this is the main cause of my problem. I have no basis for this other than my own intuition. Are these on the rear only or the front as well? Do they have to be converted to oil-type when replaced or is there a heavy-duty replacement i should consider? Happy to be told what to do here.

(Although I also had the hubs converted back to older style county hubs with oil lubed bearings at the same time, so that might also be why they lasted so long.)

Clunks can also be cause by the rear axle A frame ball joint. Again the factory one can last well or wear out quickly depending on if the grease monkeys in the factory turned up to work. I replaced mine with a greasable adjustable maxidrive version just recently and that will fix the issue forever. Doubt its this.

The Radius arm bushes can cause some noises if worn - but probably not likely on a newer Defender unless you have an oil leak. Or this

Another great place for clunks is the Center diff in the transfer case. Sometimes these just come out of the factory clunky. It will last a long time making all sorts of noises. Just don't do too much wheel spinning without center diff locked... Noted. Is this a commonly replaced/upgraded item? When most people talk about diff backlash do they mean rear diff???

Another interesting place for clicks is the clutch plate. On a Puma there are springs in the clutch plate that take up rotational vibration. Many Puma's have poor quality clutch plates and the springs become loose. Most commonly heard as the death shake when you switch the engine off. These springs can cause all sorts of noises. I think i have this too. I dont get a death rattle on switch-off but it sounds like clicky noises on take-up. I guess i'll have to wait for the clutch to fail though as not worth replacing for this.

[spudboy]

Hi Sam - have you tried driving another similar vehicle? Mine is an '07, and it has clunked all it's life. If you can grab a drive of someone else's you might be able to gauge how noisy yours is compared to another.

HTH
David

[Samblers]

I havent yet, no. I should definitely try that ...

[Cracka]

G'day Sam, a couple of months ago I had the rear half shafts, drive flanges and the output/input shaft replaced to alleviate my clunks as well. Yes it has quietened it a lot, it does still clunk.

I find I clunk say when downshifting from 6th to 5th to go up a hill where you power on as you release the clutch. Its fine if normal downshifting to slow down say downshift, release clutch and then power on.

Mick.

[Brett1066]

Sam - welcome to take my bus for a drive and listen to the clunks it makes, although it is a 300tdi, and 16 years older than yours....I have not long replaced the clutch and front diff, and now it makes a different clunk to the one it used to make before the repairs - go figure!

[BilboBoggles]

I fitted a set of "fake" Maxidrive heavy duty flanges - I bought from the UK for about $50 and these have now done 160,000 ks and no clunk. I think this is the main cause of my problem. I have no basis for this other than my own intuition. Are these on the rear only or the front as well? Do they have to be converted to oil-type when replaced or is there a heavy-duty replacement i should consider? Happy to be told what to do here.


No they don't have to be converted to an oil lubed hub, I had this done because it means that the wheel bearings are less likely to fail due to water damage and to also ensure they last for a very long time. It also mean the wheel bearings are fully adjustable instead of using a spacer and hoping for the best.

But the risk with oil lubed hubs is oil leaks.

The axle drive flanges can be replace very easily with just removing a wheel, and do not require any other mods. The heavy duty ones (and proper maxidrive are apparently the best - but I was a bit tight and bought a cheaper set from the UK) usually have a longer engagement on the driven splines and are made from better quality steel.




Another great place for clunks is the Center diff in the transfer case. Sometimes these just come out of the factory clunky. It will last a long time making all sorts of noises. Just don't do too much wheel spinning without center diff locked... Noted. Is this a commonly replaced/upgraded item? When most people talk about diff backlash do they mean rear diff???


Not commonly on new transfer cases, but after a few 100,000k the bushes on the crosshafts wear a bit and cause clunkiness. I would not worry about this.. In fact I had an old Range Rover with the LT230 that did close to 500,000ks with the original transfer case and all the clunks, was still going when I retired it due to putting $500 of fuel into it a week... (I miss that v8.)


Another interesting place for clicks is the clutch plate. On a Puma there are springs in the clutch plate that take up rotational vibration. Many Puma's have poor quality clutch plates and the springs become loose. Most commonly heard as the death shake when you switch the engine off. These springs can cause all sorts of noises. I think i have this too. I dont get a death rattle on switch-off but it sounds like clicky noises on take-up. I guess i'll have to wait for the clutch to fail though as not worth replacing for this.


The clunk clunk clunk as you turn the engine off is the clue to look for in working out when you have a clutch spring problem. Again - they can last for a very long time with worn springs... Or a spring might jsut pop out one day and jam the clutch. Again - not worth worrying about until it happens I reckon.





Oh and perhaps the MOST important way of de clunking a Defender... It really comes down to driving style. Feathering the clutch and throttle so that the drive take up is very gently will give no clunks even on the most knackered defender. This is very hard to do, but is possible. I can drive my Defender some days and get no clunking at all, it all just flows. But then other days I'm not as one with the Defender and it clunks every change. My wife who is a very gentle driver can clunk any defender on the planet as she is not as one with the Defender. So I would say 95% of defender clunkiness is psychologically induced... If you can drive a non synchro box with no grinds, then you are ready for being as one with a Defender.

[AndyG]

Are there any particular points that should/can be lubricated on a Defender fresh off the boat, or as a matter of principal give every thing a shot of grease that can be greased, regardless of service schedule?

[Brett1066]

"Oh and perhaps the MOST important way of de clunking a Defender... It really comes down to driving style. Feathering the clutch and throttle so that the drive take up is very gently will give no clunks even on the most knackered defender. This is very hard to do, but is possible. I can drive my Defender some days and get no clunking at all, it all just flows. But then other days I'm not as one with the Defender and it clunks every change. My wife who is a very gentle driver can clunk any defender on the planet as she is not as one with the Defender. So I would say 95% of defender clunkiness is psychologically induced... If you can drive a non synchro box with no grinds, then you are ready for being as one with a Defender. "

Well said Bilbo. I have noticed the same, some days I can drive with almost no clunks, other days I will get it at almost every gear change.

[strangy]

Not any help on what has already been posted, but I test drove a new 90 last week and it clunked.
The sort of thing I would have been chasing in an older vehicle.

[JDNSW]

Driveline clunks will be exacerbated if the handbrake is dragging - does not take much. Go for a run and see if it gets hotter than the transfer case - careful, it can get very hot!

John

[Samblers]

Oh and perhaps the MOST important way of de clunking a Defender... It really comes down to driving style. Feathering the clutch and throttle so that the drive take up is very gently will give no clunks even on the most knackered defender. This is very hard to do, but is possible. I can drive my Defender some days and get no clunking at all, it all just flows. But then other days I'm not as one with the Defender and it clunks every change. My wife who is a very gentle driver can clunk any defender on the planet as she is not as one with the Defender. So I would say 95% of defender clunkiness is psychologically induced..] If you can drive a non synchro box with no grinds, then you are ready for being as one with a Defender.

^ Love it. I'm sure we have all experienced this. BilboBoggles is now my favourite philosopher :angel:

[Samblers]

Sorry Brett just saw your post you beat me to it!

Appreciate the clunking might be a zen thing - maybe the problem is mine, not the cars. Though i did check out the price of axles/flanges last night out of curiosity (close to a grand :eek:). Is the flange the part that typically wears, or both?

I'm mechanically sensitive to my defenders needs, and feather the clutch as required to de-clunk the ordeal. The Mrs though, good God! :o

[BilboBoggles]

Sorry Brett just saw your post you beat me to it!

Appreciate the clunking might be a zen thing - maybe the problem is mine, not the cars. Though i did check out the price of axles/flanges last night out of curiosity (close to a grand :eek:). Is the flange the part that typically wears, or both?

I'm mechanically sensitive to my defenders needs, and feather the clutch as required to de-clunk the ordeal. The Mrs though, good God! :o

The Maxidrive ones are expensive as they also include axles with longer splines. You won't strip those in a hurry. BUT at around $800 on ebay that was too expensive for me.

I bought a cheaper set of flanges as it's usually the flanges that wear quickly. I reused the existing axles. The ones I bought were similar to these

Land Rover Defender H Duty Axle Drive Flanges 1994 ON | eBay

But I bought them directly from the UK Craddocks I think - landed price was around $160 for 4. They are definitely not as good as the maxidrive - but I figured if I get 100,000 out of them I am ahead..


Although thinking about it - the standard flanges are $30 for 2 - and usually it's the rears that fail most often - you might be better off just replacing them every 50,000ks....