Restricted Performance.

[markorjack]

Sorry if this has been done to death but I did check the FAQ's.

My D4 has recently had a Traxide dual battery system fitted and just last week had a Roo Systems ECU reprogram by TJM in Hobart.

It has been all good until today.
I was towing an empty trailer up a reasonably steep and long hill at about 110 kph.

When I got to the top of the hill I had a "Restricted Performance" warning.

I limped home.

Having a search around here I saw that people have had a "Restricted performance gearbox fault" but I am not sure if this was the case with my D4 as I couldn't see any other info about the warning.

Is there a list of what the warnings are?

Once home I did check here and found advice about turning the car off and waiting for the park brake light to go out before restarting.

The fault has cleared.

My issue is why did it happen, and more importantly, given that I am about to tow a trailer 3500k's starting on Sunday, will it happen again?

[~Rich~]

Well I'd doubt it being the Traxide kit. However the Remapping is more likely the culprit. Ah the beauty of a D3 and a BAS remap, we can easily swap between them anywhere as long as you take the unit with you to help isolate the issue.
Do you have a fault code reader?
Where you using cruise control when the fault happened?

[markorjack]

No fault code reader.
No cruise control.

Unfortunately I needed the remap done quickly and the one I went with was the only option.

I don't think the Traxide kit would have any affect either, just mentioning it because it was done recently.

I'm about to head into town now and will be coming home via the same hill without the trailer so will see what happens.

Cheers.

[101RRS]

Unfortunately I needed the remap done quickly and the one I went with was the only option.
Cheers.

Why would you need to get a remap done quickly - BAS is always an option and in my view the best and as mentioned you can take it off and go back to original and later go back the the BAS map all in the comfort of your own car.

I also suspect it is the map you got - take it off and go back to your original map.

Garry

[markorjack]

The remap was done quickly because I am moving interstate and things became a bit of a rush.
I possibly should have done more research but hey, it's done now.

If I have more issues I will look into the BAS remap.

As far as I am aware I don't have the ability to remove the map I had done so hopefully it gets me interstate with no issues.

Wish me luck :)

[jonesy63]

Markorjack - did you also get the Roo Systems exhaust installed? I'm wondering if their remap is appropriate if you still have the standard exhaust on... the restricted performance fault with remaps are usually from high EGTs after an extended hard run - like towing up a long hill at high speed.

Roo Systems say their remap is safe... yeah, right. :angel:

[markorjack]

I didn't do the exhaust, apparently if you do the chip they recommend the exhaust but for the remap it is not required.

They did tell me it was unusual as the few faults they have encountered have brought up an engine fault with the orange engine warning light, not just the red restricted performance triangle warning light.

To be honest, I was disappointed with the standard performance towing up hill.
With the remap, and not towing the performance is very noticeable.
If I get a fault towing uphill then I wonder if it was worth it.

I am towing a tandem 8x5 enclosed trailer that will be reasonably loaded, 3500k's in four days starting Monday which will be a pretty good test.

[101RRS]

As far as I am aware I don't have the ability to remove the map

What happens if you get work/service work done and the original ECU software is reloaded - you loose your remap.

Garry

[winaje]

I am towing a tandem 8x5 enclosed trailer that will be reasonably loaded, 3500k's in four days starting Monday which will be a pretty good test.

How's the D4 going so far Mark?

[Tombie]

I didn't do the exhaust, apparently if you do the chip they recommend the exhaust but for the remap it is not required.

They did tell me it was unusual as the few faults they have encountered have brought up an engine fault with the orange engine warning light, not just the red restricted performance triangle warning light.

To be honest, I was disappointed with the standard performance towing up hill.
With the remap, and not towing the performance is very noticeable.
If I get a fault towing uphill then I wonder if it was worth it.

I am towing a tandem 8x5 enclosed trailer that will be reasonably loaded, 3500k's in four days starting Monday which will be a pretty good test.

And the million dollar question... What are your EGTs... I would bet they're getting right up there and your engine protected itself...

[markorjack]

How's the D4 going so far Mark?
Just pulled up after driving from Melbourne to Parkes with no problems.

[markorjack]

And the million dollar question... What are your EGTs... I would bet they're getting right up there and your engine protected itself...
I have no way to monitor them but on the hill I was driving up when the problem occurred you are probably on the money.

It went fine today towing a trailer which is a little heavier than I expected for about 800 highway k's.

I will reassess my options at a later date.

The guy I spoke to at Roo Systems said it may have been a DTS (?) burn which apparently they all do at some stage and it brings up the restricted performance fault, although this seems strange to me as it has never done that before.

[sheerluck]

I assume it was a DPF (diesel particulate filter) burn that he meant.

[markorjack]

That makes sense, I was on a mobile and about to walk in the pub door so may have misheard :)

[sheerluck]

That makes sense, I was on a mobile and about to walk in the pub door so may have misheard :)

You probably didn't really care if you were about to walk in the pub! :D

[SBD4]

That makes sense, I was on a mobile and about to walk in the pub door so may have misheard :)

Also very unlikely you have a DPF so don't accept that as the likely reason.

[Bytemrk]

This should help you clarify whether you have a DPF or not...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/150379-dpf.html#post1681008

As Sean said...it's very unlikely.

Good to hear the travelling is going OK though......

[markorjack]

Interesting, cheers.

[markorjack]

You probably didn't really care if you were about to walk in the pub! :DExactly :)

Plus, it is my wife's car anyway.
Mine is a 92 Troopy and the only electronics are the ones I have fitted such as stereo and UHF.

[gghaggis]

When the car is under load, such as towing a heavy trailer uphill, is precisely the time when you DON'T want a remap/chip to be in effect. People selling these as aids to towing are bordering on irresponsible.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

apparently if you do the chip they recommend the exhaust but for the remap it is not required.I'm intrigued by this statement.

[gghaggis]

I'm intrigued by this statement.

"intrigued" isn't the word I had in mind :angel:

Cheers,

Gordon

[markorjack]

When the car is under load, such as towing a heavy trailer uphill, is precisely the time when you DON'T want a remap/chip to be in effect.
Could you please explain why Gordon?
Cheers.

Just to add, I drove another 850 odd k's today from Parkes to Toowoomba via the Newell Highway with quite a few long hills.
No further engine faults and it seems to be going well.

Don't take this as disagreeing with you as I really don't know much about modern engines :)

[Disco Muppet]

Because a chip/remap is going to be raising the 'stresses' on the vehicle, higher EGTs, etc.
Towing with a standard power package is going to raise these stresses anyway, so combining the stresses of towing with the stresses of a remap or chip, your vehicle is going to be really pushing it in terms of what's safe unless you've got suitably uprated performance components; bigger IC, etc.

[markorjack]

I can understand the logic but isn't a chip/remap just putting the engine back where it could safely be rather than the de-tuned state it is in from the manufacturer?

[sheerluck]

I can understand the logic but isn't a chip/remap just putting the engine back where it could safely be rather than the de-tuned state it is in from the manufacturer?

There's the issue right there, an assumption that it is actually de-tuned. Why would it be de-tuned? The manufacturer is going to want to give the engine the best balance of longevity, performance and economy. Any changes in tuning has the ability to negatively effect one, many or all of those factors.

But you can't really know for sure how "de-tuned" that engine is without doing a huge amount of testing.

[markorjack]

There's the issue right there, an assumption that it is actually de-tuned. Why would it be de-tuned? The manufacturer is going to want to give the engine the best balance of longevity, performance and economy. Any changes in tuning has the ability to negatively effect one, many or all of those factors.
My understanding is that because the same engine is sold all over the world it is tuned to suit a vast array of requirements.
As well as the fact if an engine isn't working anywhere close to it's capacity the chance of warranty claims is much less.

I'm happy to trade a bit of longevity for performance and economy, as long as it is only a little bit of longevity :)

I will not be keeping this vehicle for 200,000 k's like I have with my old technology Troopy.

Another 700k's today without issue, but again, I am not discounting anything said by others in this thread, all good knowledge to have in the bag.

[gghaggis]

My understanding is that because the same engine is sold all over the world it is tuned to suit a vast array of requirements.
As well as the fact if an engine isn't working anywhere close to it's capacity the chance of warranty claims is much less.


Many tuning companies love to talk up this point, but none have the data to back it up, especially for specific makes and models.

Just go back to simple logic and a few solid observations from people on this forum. The D4 3.0 ltr in standard tune can trigger a restricted performance warning - most cases occur when towing close to the limit uphill with the cruise control on. Software updates have reduced this occurrence, but remapping/chipping will simply push you back up towards the edge of the safety envelope again.

If you insist on a remap, it should be for purely performance reasons, not as an aid to towing - go easy on the throttle if that's what you're doing.

Cheers,

Gordon

[markorjack]

Many tuning companies love to talk up this point, but none have the data to back it up, especially for specific makes and models.

Just go back to simple logic and a few solid observations from people on this forum. The D4 3.0 ltr in standard tune can trigger a restricted performance warning - most cases occur when towing close to the limit uphill with the cruise control on. Software updates have reduced this occurrence, but remapping/chipping will simply push you back up towards the edge of the safety envelope again.

If you insist on a remap, it should be for purely performance reasons, not as an aid to towing - go easy on the throttle if that's what you're doing.
All good Gordon.

I have been pretty easy on the throttle on this trip and sail up most hills at 110 in the mid rev range, even with the loaded trailer.

The performance is very noticeable, overtaking is a breeze.
Fuel economy is 14.5 litres per 100 which I don't have anything to compare to as I have only towed the trailer once on a short trip since the remap.

I also haven't really had a chance to compare the economy when not towing.

When I got the fault I was doing about 120 up a long hill with the trailer unloaded but since then I have had no issues.

This car doesn't tow all the time, in fact it is quite rare but I am moving to the Atherton Tablelands where any towing it does do will be up the quite steep Gillies or Kuranda ranges.
In my favour is the fact that these will be quite slow drives.

[Dougal]

I can understand the logic but isn't a chip/remap just putting the engine back where it could safely be rather than the de-tuned state it is in from the manufacturer?
Nope. That's pure bull**** pedalled by people with no idea and products to sell.

You are also not trading longevity, you are risking meltdown. It is only the ecu protection that has stopped that happening already.

[sheerluck]

My understanding is that because the same engine is sold all over the world it is tuned to suit a vast array of requirements.
As well as the fact if an engine isn't working anywhere close to it's capacity the chance of warranty claims is much less.

I'm happy to trade a bit of longevity for performance and economy, as long as it is only a little bit of longevity :)

I will not be keeping this vehicle for 200,000 k's like I have with my old technology Troopy.

Another 700k's today without issue, but again, I am not discounting anything said by others in this thread, all good knowledge to have in the bag.

It is quite probable that the engine is tuned differently for each application. However, the D4/RRS/FFRR are the heaviest vehicles that it pulls. The engine will be under much more stress in a D4 weighing 2.7tonnes, pulling another 3.5tonnes, than it would be in a Citröen C5 weighing one tonne less.

So it will be much closer to the performance limit in the D4 than anywhere else:


177 kW (237 hp), 450 N·m (330 lbf·ft) – Citroën C5, Citroën C6, Peugeot 407, Peugeot 407 Coupé
177 kW (237 hp), 500 N·m (370 lbf·ft) – Jaguar XF, Land Rover Discovery 4, Range Rover Sport
187 kW (251 hp), 600 N·m (440 lbf·ft) – Land Rover Discovery 4, Range Rover Sport
202 kW (271 hp), 600 N·m (440 lbf·ft) – Jaguar XF, Jaguar XJ, Range Rover

[markorjack]

You are also not trading longevity, you are risking meltdown. It is only the ecu protection that has stopped that happening already.
So doesn't that make it the same as any other modern engine and the same as it was before the remap, i.e. relying on the ecu to protect the engine?

For example the 3.0l D4 which Gordon said earlier can trigger a restricted performance fault in standard tune.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to gain a better understanding which may be something I should have done before having the remap done :)

[sheerluck]

......You are also not trading longevity, you are risking meltdown......

Isn't that just substantially reduced longevity? :angel:

[gghaggis]

So doesn't that make it the same as any other modern engine and the same as it was before the remap, i.e. relying on the ecu to protect the engine?


So follow that train of thought to its logical end: you therefore cannot really have any more (usable) power towing than you did before the remap. The throttle response may delude you into thinking that it's a lot faster, but the high-end performance will trigger a shutdown, so ...............

I know, because I've done it.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Dougal]

So doesn't that make it the same as any other modern engine and the same as it was before the remap, i.e. relying on the ecu to protect the engine?

For example the 3.0l D4 which Gordon said earlier can trigger a restricted performance fault in standard tune.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to gain a better understanding which may be something I should have done before having the remap done :)

When the ECU throws up it's hands and shouts "STAAAP" you are well past normal operation. It is literally into damage control mode.

The really scary part is, you have no idea if the remapper has altered the limits where the ECU goes into damage control mode. They could have found those limiters and cranked them higher than the factory settings already.:eek:

This is why I don't buy off-the-shelf remaps for any of my vehicles.

[markorjack]

So follow that train of thought to its logical end: you therefore cannot really have any more (usable) power towing than you did before the remap. The throttle response may delude you into thinking that it's a lot faster, but the high-end performance will trigger a shutdown, so .............

I agree on the high end performance, it seems to me though, after three days of towing that the mid rev range performance has improved significantly.

[markorjack]

When the ECU throws up it's hands and shouts "STAAAP" you are well past normal operation. It is literally into damage control mode.

The really scary part is, you have no idea if the remapper has altered the limits where the ECU goes into damage control mode. They could have found those limiters and cranked them higher than the factory settings already.:eek:
Fair point.

[Connect]

Hi everyone,
This is my first time using a forum, so please keep this in mind with any dumb question I may have.

I purchased a Landrover D4 2 years ago now and have experienced the Restricted performance issues mentioned in some of these posts ever since.
To date the vehicle just turns off with no pre warning or any other issue at all and the Restricted performance message comes up.

This is really dangerous as the vehicle is my wife's who is not a very big woman and when the car shuts down going around a corner or round a bout it can be very hard to steer.

So far we have been told be different Landrover repairers to get the gearbox serviced which we have done twice, replace the front and back fuel pumps which we have, replace the exhaust sensors which we have and finally replace the gearbox which we have.

But the problem is still there and getting worse.
Sometimes when the message comes up we can't even turn the car off.

Any help would be appreciated.
As it is we are about to take in back into our local Landrover dealer again as the car at the moment is just too unreliable and dangerous to drive.

Kind regards,
Steve

[IndusD4]

Hi Steve,

You would need to get the fault codes read which would give an indication of what is wrong. I've had this restricted performance due to a split turbo hose but it didn't turn the engine off when that happened.

Ron

[Graeme]

Your local Land Rover dealer has sent you on a merry goose chase presumably costing you a lot of money so I suggest that you don't take the car back to that dealer.

The engine stopping is one problem that could have a few different causes but not being able to stop the engine suggests that the stop button is not sending the stop signal to the BCM (body control module) which in turn should switch off the ignition relay and therefore the sense wire to the engine control module. As this not-stopping problem exists then the auto-stopping could be related and therefore possibly only 1 real problem, somewhere in the chain of the stop/start button, the BCU and the ignition relay.

If you have a diagnostic tool such as the IIDTool then you could monitor the BCU's ignition status but if working as it should then the problem could still be either in the wiring to the relay or the relay itself. I don't know if the IIDTool can monitor the ignition feed at the ECM but I doubt that it can. It would obviously be great if the ignition relay is faulty but that's probably hoping for too simple a solution.

[veebs]

Hi Steve

Did you buy new or near-new? In which case, is it still under warranty? Bit of googling suggests the crank-angle sensor as a possible cause: Jaguar Land Rover Australia—Land Rover 2012 to 2014 MY 3.0L TDV6 and 4.4L TDV8 Diesel Engine Vehicles | Product Safety Australia (https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recall/jaguar-land-rover-australia-land-rover-2012-to-2014-my-30l-tdv6-and-44l-tdv8-diesel-engine-vehicles'source=recalls)

however, I agree regarding getting codes read - are you able to give a little more of a clue where you are in Victoria? There may be someone on here who can PM you a recommended independent garage to sort the issue

[IndusD4]

Or in fact anyone close by with an IIDTool as reading and resetting fault codes isn't VIN locked.

[loanrangie]

I can imagine what this has cost so far and the problem still exists, I'd be pretty ****ed off.
I'm happy to read codes but I would assume any decent Indy would do that as a matter of course.