Roy Hill Mine

[nugge t]

I am sure that the Gina haters will go into melt down but I found this article very informative. 20 years since they pegged it and full production still 3.5 years away.

Nearly went broke trying to get it going, sold part of it to keep the dream alive and now has a $US7.2Billion debt facility to get it to completion. Big numbers. Not sure many appreciate what it takes to get something like this up.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/she-has-a-mine-of-her-own/story-e6frg6z6-1227004837408

[tonyci]

i agree huge outlay.
And many needed jobs are and will be created.
Cheers
tony

[incisor]

And many needed jobs are and will be created.


for who?

[Ferret]

Mate of mine from Newcastle started up there last week. First job he's had in 8 months.

[tonyci]

not sure why you ask for who. Australians in both Perth and the mine site are being employed. I do not work for the mine but have visited the mine and control room in Perth, plenty of Australians working. As with any mine there are non Australian workers as well.
Tony

[incisor]

not sure why you ask for who.

thought it a valid question seeing there is a long history of wanting special zone taxation and high levels of imported labour...

[Gerokent]

Was it not Geena (sorry for the spelling) that said we all should work for two dollars a day. Probably taking some liberties with the actual comment, but it was something along those lines.
And as a matter of interest, from whom did she get the 7.2 billion debt facillity? ie. where is the money going on repayment of said loan? for the good of Australia, I don't think so.
I would have thought that by supplying the market with more ore, the price would ease off (as it has)
Just another case of rape and pillage to line the pockets of a few.

[tonyci]

Fair point Incisor. Not sure about the tax zones, but with regard to labour hire,a lot of that was noise to make or try and make a point with the unions. Not sure that was a wise way to go. There is no more international labour on the Roy Hill mine then most of the others in WA.
There are certain skills just not available locally at the moment, not sure if thats because of lack of apprenticeships offered in years gone by or what.

[incisor]

There is no more international labour on the Roy Hill mine then most of the others in WA.
There are certain skills just not available locally at the moment, not sure if thats because of lack of apprenticeships offered in years gone by or what.

your last paragraph touches on it

back when i worked at the mines in the late 70's early 80's, a majority fifo workforce was only a mining magnates wet dream and they had to support the local communities and build infrastructure.

there were fifo contractors, but they only did construction, shutdowns or major maintenance on wash plants or conveyors etc etc

greed at all levels killed that over the next 20 years.

[DiscoMick]

Premium content so couldn't read the story as I refuse to pay for online news, particularly from News Limited.
If she can make it work, and produce worthwhile benefits for Australia, then good on her, I say.

[frantic]

There is also a suggestion of avoiding the rules:
457 visa workers at Roy Hill being exploited, whistleblower claims (http://www.smh.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/457-visa-workers-at-roy-hill-being-exploited-whistleblower-claims-20140404-362wt.html)


Now supposedly there are no more 457 workers at the mine, but who knows the truth?
Hopefully its a fully paid, Australian manned mine, but lets see the ink.

[PAT303]

for who?

Kiwi's.No offence to them but we have plenty of Australians to do the work,1000 per week come over here. Pat

[nugge t]

Was it not Geena (sorry for the spelling) that said we all should work for two dollars a day. Probably taking some liberties with the actual comment, but it was something along those lines.
And as a matter of interest, from whom did she get the 7.2 billion debt facillity? ie. where is the money going on repayment of said loan? for the good of Australia, I don't think so.
I would have thought that by supplying the market with more ore, the price would ease off (as it has)
Just another case of rape and pillage to line the pockets of a few.


The answer to your question is in the article.



Next time someone spends 20 years and $US7.2 to get a dream going that will create 3,800 jobs in construction, 2,000 ongoing, a port facility, roads, a railway, and a town infrastructure plus an airport, and do it all for zip, let me know. I would suspect that in the construction phase alone the wages bill would be 40 to 50 million a year but of course none of that matters.



I might add that the 3,800 people are not putting 1 cent into the project just taking the money. They certainly are not waiting 5 to 10 years to be paid. They line up every payday regardless whilst she is taking all the risk. She, and her partners who are funding this project deserve every $ they may eventually get back from their investment. If the 3,800 invested in the mine, they would equally deserve any money they made on their investment.



It is a pity more people haven't read the article as it might give them some insight into the risk associated with such ventures, the vision of the people who pursue them and the balls it takes to make it happen as opposed to rolling out the ABC stereotype of mining magnates.



Personally I almost wish she had invested her 7.2B in Chile or Africa so there were no jobs, which would no doubt make many on here much happier as she would not be , in their eyes, ripping off Australian workers.


The tall poppy syndrome is alive and well it would appear.

[AndyG]

Premium content so couldn't read the story as I refuse to pay for online news, particularly from News Limited.
If she can make it work, and produce worthwhile benefits for Australia, then good on her, I say.

So who should pay for it, to pay for the journos etc, it's a bit like this forum, it cost something to run.

[Tank]

The answer to your question is in the article.



Next time someone spends 20 years and $US7.2 to get a dream going that will create 3,800 jobs in construction, 2,000 ongoing, a port facility, roads, a railway, and a town infrastructure plus an airport, and do it all for zip, let me know. I would suspect that in the construction phase alone the wages bill would be 40 to 50 million a year but of course none of that matters.



I might add that the 3,800 people are not putting 1 cent into the project just taking the money. They certainly are not waiting 5 to 10 years to be paid. They line up every payday regardless whilst she is taking all the risk. She, and her partners who are funding this project deserve every $ they may eventually get back from their investment. If the 3,800 invested in the mine, they would equally deserve any money they made on their investment.



It is a pity more people haven't read the article as it might give them some insight into the risk associated with such ventures, the vision of the people who pursue them and the balls it takes to make it happen as opposed to rolling out the ABC stereotype of mining magnates.



Personally I almost wish she had invested her 7.2B in Chile or Africa so there were no jobs, which would no doubt make many on here much happier as she would not be , in their eyes, ripping off Australian workers.


The tall poppy syndrome is alive and well it would appear.

So the 3800 people are just showing up to pick up their wages, they don't contribute a cent to the economy of Australia, they don't actually do anything, is that your gist.
You really have your head up somewhere real dark or is it Gina's somewhere real dark, whatever you're selling I don't want, Regards Frank.

[Mick_Marsh]

So the 3800 people are just showing up to pick up their wages, they don't contribute a cent to the economy of Australia, they don't actually do anything, is that your gist.
No. Not only read what nugge t has written but try to understand and comprehend.
Those 3800 do their work and are paid for their work. What they don't do is invest their money into the project and share the risk.
I am usually one of those 3800. I do the work and get the money. No risk.
I was offered an opportunity to share the risk with one employer. I foregoed $1600 of my pay for 1000 shares in the project. That risk paid off. I get paid about $800 a year for sharing the risk. I could have lost my money if it had gone bad.

You really have your head up somewhere real dark or is it Gina's somewhere real dark,
We can do without this.

whatever you're selling I don't want
So, I take it you have no shares or investments.

[bob10]

Do those on 457 visas, contribute to the company? Perhaps the reason Gina is not in Chile etc, is the stability of this country, as opposed to the latent instability of elsewhere. Perhaps Gina would have a better public persona if she was a self made tycoon. Perhaps, perhaps. Lang Hancocks timeline is interesting, Bob




Hancock Timeline (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/about-hancock-prospecting/hancock-timeline)

[scarry]

Was it not Geena (sorry for the spelling) that said we all should work for two dollars a day. Probably taking some liberties with the actual comment, but it was something along those lines.
And as a matter of interest, from whom did she get the 7.2 billion debt facillity? ie. where is the money going on repayment of said loan? for the good of Australia, I don't think so.
I would have thought that by supplying the market with more ore, the price would ease off (as it has)
Just another case of rape and pillage to line the pockets of a few.

Probably one of her other companies......

[Sue]

Kiwi's.No offence to them but we have plenty of Australians to do the work,1000 per week come over here. Pat

I'm not sure where you got your facts from Pat but according to the Australian Governments web site in 2012-13 we had 35 308 New Zealanders immigrate to Australia and 10 875 return home permanently.

And can I just say that 100% totally agree with what Nugget is saying here; it's all too easy for people to sit at home on their computers and bag those that are actually out there making things happen.

[nugge t]

No. Not only read what nugge t has written but try to understand and comprehend.
Those 3800 do their work and are paid for their work. What they don't do is invest their money into the project and share the risk.
I am usually one of those 3800. I do the work and get the money. No risk.
I was offered an opportunity to share the risk with one employer. I foregoed $1600 of my pay for 1000 shares in the project. That risk paid off. I get paid about $800 a year for sharing the risk. I could have lost my money if it had gone bad.






Exactly....it is best I don't reply to frank too directly as I might be a bit too direct ....and congratulations for putting some skin in the game and it is great you are getting a return on your investment. It is exactly the same for the backers of this project...the only difference is the number of zeros.


I just can not understand why some expect people to take the risk but it is somehow morally wrong for them to get a return on their investment. I bet the same people would go off the tree if they had to put money in a bank at no interest.

[nugge t]

Probably one of her other companies......



"The finance deal is made up of loans and guarantees from five export credit agencies and a consortium of 19 commercial banks from Australia, Japan, Europe, China, Korea and Singapore.


The lenders include the big four Australian banks: National Australia Bank, ANZ, Westpac and the Commonwealth Bank.


In a statement, Mrs Rinehart, the chairman of Roy Hill, said the project represented an opportunity during a period of global uncertainty.


"The project has strong partners with international experience in finance, engineering, construction, marketing and logistics, which has assisted in the attraction of support from the international finance community," she said.


Roy Hill chief executive Barry Fitzgerald said the funding deal was the largest debt financing for a mining project in the world."


Just to ensure a balanced view the full ABC article can be read here.


Gina Rinehart's Roy Hill iron ore project secures $US7.2 billion funding deal - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-21/rinehart-secures-finance-deal-for-roy-hill-mine/5335634)


Sadly is gives very little of the background compared to the originally linked article.

[nugge t]

Do those on 457 visas, contribute to the company? Perhaps the reason Gina is not in Chile etc, is the stability of this country, as opposed to the latent instability of elsewhere. Perhaps Gina would have a better public persona if she was a self made tycoon. Perhaps, perhaps. Lang Hancocks timeline is interesting, Bob

Hancock Timeline (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/about-hancock-prospecting/hancock-timeline)



Interesting the continual dragging out of 457's and yet as far as I am aware there has only been 1 significant confirmed abuse and that was the veggie growers in WA.


The Roy Hill application I am pretty sure was made to the previous Government. If they didn't make sure it was above board whose fault is it? As I understand it, there is an agency charged with the responsibility of ensuring the system is not abused. There are many wild claims but seems to be an chronic lack of prosecutions so it begs the question as to where are the convictions to back up the continual claims?

[isuzurover]

Gina has publicly stated that the reason she is setting up a working mine is as a legacy to her father.

I am sure any benefit to the Australian economy or employment situation is an afterthought. As pointed out in this thread, she would be using workers on $2 per (hour?) if she could.

Gina has though provided a huge benefit to a number of lawyers in Australia...

if Gina was not developing the mine, I doubt there would be any difference in the Australian economy, except that the resources would still be in the ground for the future.

[incisor]

Interesting the continual dragging out of 457's and yet as far as I am aware there has only been 1 significant confirmed abuse and that was the veggie growers in WA.

me thinks it may depend on your definition of "abuse"

several previous governments including labor and to a bigger extent the current goverment have done nothing to close the loopholes that allow the current "abuse" of the principle behind the 457 visa scheme.

that is the form of "abuse" people are alluding to me thinks when they say "abuse"

[Mick_Marsh]

me thinks it may depend on your definition of "abuse"
Would it not be the courts definition of abuse. If it is within the law, it's not abuse. It might be un Australian.
Oh, I have worked with people on 457 visas. They are people with dreams and aspirations who just want a paid job and a reasonable life. Remind you of anyone?

[Hoges]

Actually the Gina R comment about $2 per day was justified:eek: For anyone who read the whole of what she had to say, rather than listen to the class warfare warrior basket weavers who don't understand much at all... understood that what she actually was saying... not what was reported, was that other countries are using their low wage rates as a "competitive advantage" against us to attract investment. She cited the $2 a day as an example of what Australia has to compete against... she did not advocate a $2/day wage level.

The demise of Ford/GMH/Toyota etc manufacturing is typical of competitive market forces at play. You can't expect others to keep picking up the mind boggling losses when you pay a cleaner $70k plus allowances! Some of those affected by the closure even admitted this to the press!

Why do you think many Western economies are critical of China artificially maintaining a low currency? China is on the verge of a wages explosion and some companies are looking to Africa to reduce manufacturing labour costs. Indeed several textile manufacturers in China have recently or are planning to re-establish their plants in the south of the USA because labour costs have reduced sufficiently to make them competitive there.

I have several extended family members in jobs associated with the mining industry. They are all worried because the wages they are being paid they believe are unsustainably high! A couple of them are quietly looking to apply their engineering skills in a different industry albeit at a lesser wage but with more certainty of longer term employment...

[Mick_Marsh]

I have several extended family members in jobs associated with the mining industry. They are all worried because the wages they are being paid they believe are unsustainably high! A couple of them are quietly looking to apply their engineering skills in a different industry albeit at a lesser wage but with more certainty of longer term employment...
Interesting comment. I have done just that.
Unfortunately, there's not much out there.

[incisor]

Would it not be the courts definition of abuse. If it is within the law, it's not abuse. It might be un Australian.
Oh, I have worked with people on 457 visas. They are people with dreams and aspirations who just want a paid job and a reasonable life. Remind you of anyone?

Gee so have most of us mick....


Go water your horse :-)

[Mick_Marsh]

Gee so have most of us mick....
Yep. That is what I was getting at
We all have dreams and aspirations and just want a paid job and a reasonable life

A number of people I have worked with have followed projects overseas. You've got to go where the work is.
I hope this new mine uses local businesses to design and develop the mine and it's infrastructure. However, it is the responsibility of the mining company to their share holders to get the best facility for the cheapest price. With a lot of the mines in the past number of years, the design and development has gradually moved off shore. The simple reason is they can get the design work and equipment cheaper off shore. And the quality of the overseas suppliers work is improving.
The exchange rate doesn't help either.

[nugge t]

me thinks it may depend on your definition of "abuse"

several previous governments including labor and to a bigger extent the current goverment have done nothing to close the loopholes that allow the current "abuse" of the principle behind the 457 visa scheme.

that is the form of "abuse" people are alluding to me thinks when they say "abuse"

Either way there appears to be a total lack of prosecution despite an enormous effort from the previous Govt and the unions to try to make it a massive issue.

Personally I am pretty sick of the continual whispering campaign going on about it. I would have thought it is time to put up or shut up? A bit like the $2/hr wage thing which an earlier post explained the reality of Gina's comment as opposed to the ABC edited version preferred by many with an agenda.

There just doesn't seem to be any concrete evidence that it is systematically being rorted other than hearsay which never appears to be converted into prosecution.

[nugge t]

Gina has publicly stated that the reason she is setting up a working mine is as a legacy to her father.

I am sure any benefit to the Australian economy or employment situation is an afterthought. As pointed out in this thread, she would be using workers on $2 per (hour?) if she could.

Gina has though provided a huge benefit to a number of lawyers in Australia...

if Gina was not developing the mine, I doubt there would be any difference in the Australian economy, except that the resources would still be in the ground for the future.

probably at least 3,800 people would disgree with you I suspect and over 40 million reasons a year in the local economy why you are wrong, every one with a $ sign in front of it.:D

[nugge t]

For those who were unable to read the original link, this is the full article.

My intent in posting this was not to generate a debate on the ill informed $2/hr wage claim or 457 visa's.

I thought this was a great story giving a tremendous insight into the dedication, drive and guts required to get a big project up. Of course the Gina haters will find fault regardless but I hope others find it as interesting as I did. It is, I believe, a great Australian story. Certainly there appears to be a genuine excitement, passion and pride in what she is creating.


IT’S just a bridge over a dry river. Concrete, wide enough for only one train track and not particularly long. But Gina Rinehart loves it. “What a sturdy-looking bridge,” she says as the helicopter banks so she can get a better look. ­“Fantastic.”
It’s not difficult to understand the enthusiasm for an otherwise unremarkable piece of infrastructure the public will never use. For Rinehart, the recent completion of the bridge over the East Turner River brings her ever closer to fulfilling a dream decades in the making: to own and operate her own mine.
The bridge is part of the 344km rail line that, when finished, will link the Roy Hill iron ore mine to the harbour at Port Hedland in Western Australia’s remote northwest. Five trains — each 2.5km long, carrying more than 30,000 tonnes of ore in 232 cars — will cross it every day when the mine hits peak production. That’s still a few years away and Rinehart is here to inspect the progress and celebrate, quietly, the halfway mark of the construction phase.

The $10 billion Roy Hill project is operated and 70 per cent owned by Rinehart’s Hancock Prospecting. Apart from a “remote operations centre” in Perth, there are three main components of the project: the mine and processing facility about 270km south of Port Hedland in the heart of the Pilbara; the rail line; and the port ­facility for the ships that will ferry the ore to markets in Asia. All are at various stages of completion and, in the space of a few hours, Rinehart will visit them all.

Rinehart is a frequent visitor to Roy Hill but this trip is special. “A significant milestone,” says Roy Hill chief executive Barry Fitzgerald of the 50 per cent mark. “A turning point.”
Rinehart has brought her youngest daughter, 27-year-old Ginia, who visits Roy Hill less often but is no less enthusiastic about the project. Similarly dressed in steel-capped work boots, black leggings and denim shirts badged with the black-and-white Roy Hill logo, the pair starts at the end: the industrial harbour at Port Hedland.

The established iron ore players — BHP Billiton, Rio Tinto and Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Metals Group — already have wharves set among the mangroves and tidal flats. A handful of ships sit in the harbour, loading up. More than 20 are moored offshore waiting for their slot. On one arm of the harbour, which is already responsible for more export dollars than any other in Australia, a new facility is taking shape as enormous ­pylons are driven into the mud. Eventually, the Roy Hill wharf will have berths for two ships, which will load up on iron ore brought across from a nearby stockpile on a giant conveyor belt.

The workers — contractors and those employed by Roy Hill itself — have been told the boss is coming. As Rinehart, her daughter and Hancock executive director Tad Watroba clamber along the walkways among the pylons, the project manager explains the wharf development is 66 per cent completed. Rinehart is delighted. Over ice-cold, locally made lemonade, she congratulates the team and reinforces the importance of their roles for Roy Hill, for the mining industry “and all the related industries that rely on us”.
“I hope you’re as proud of the work we’re doing as I am,” she says. “Now I should let you get back to work rather than having to listen to me.” Photos are taken, thanks are given, and she’s off.

After the flyover of parts of the rail line and the East Turner River bridge, it’s back to Port Hedland for the short plane flight to the Ginbata airstrip at Roy Hill, which is big enough to take a Boeing 737. Below the plane, the deep-red earth of the Pilbara stretches to the horizon in every direction, dotted by spinifex, crossed by creeks that flow only in the wet season and marked occasionally by the mines owned and operated by BHP, Rio and Fortescue.
You can see the strip cleared for Roy Hill’s rail line, running for much of its length alongside Fortescue’s own rail line and, in some areas, alongside BHP’s. The sharing of infrastructure, such as rail lines, in this part of the world is a vexed topic. BHP wouldn’t share its rail line with newcomer Fortescue. Fortescue wouldn’t share with newcomer Roy Hill, nor let Roy Hill’s rail line run across its adjoining lease, adding a significant detour and hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of Hancock’s project. Fitzgerald says Roy Hill will be open to discussions on sharing its rail line with others but only once the project is built. There’s no point negotiating before then, he says.
For a first-time visitor, it’s hard to make sense of the mine site itself when seen from the air. Everything — the processing plant, maintenance sheds for the giant mining trucks, tailings dams and the first pocket of mining itself — seems unnecessarily spread out. Only when the nature of the ore body itself is explained does everything become clear.

Roy Hill will not be the kind of mine imagined by many — a deep open pit with trucks lumbering up and down a spiral roadway to the bottom. This ore body is very shallow, “outcropping”, or breaking the surface, at one end and extending to 90m at its deepest point to the south. But it is huge — stretching 26km from end to end and 7km across its widest point. All the facilities have been dotted around the ore body. With exceptions for important indigenous and environmental sites, the rest will be dug up, with the company refilling the hole left behind as it moves on to new areas.

The deposit contains about one billion tonnes of high-grade ore — a similar quality to the ­“Pilbara blend” mined by BHP and Rio — and another 1.3 billion ­tonnes of low-grade ore. Because the deposit is shallow, and not covered by too much rock and earth, it is easier and cheaper to mine than other deposits, making Roy Hill a relatively low-cost production that can weather fluctuations in the iron ore price.

The first shipment of ore is due to leave in September next year. About 2 ½ years later, the project is forecast to be running at full ­capacity of 55 million tonnes of ore a year, making it arguably the biggest single iron ore mine in Australia. Mining effectively started in April as part of a project to divert a creek that runs across the ore body. There are now about 560,000 tonnes of ore stockpiled, waiting for all the other components of the project — the pro­cessing facility, rail line and harbour — to be finished. Only in the past week has mining proper started in the Delta pit towards the north of the deposit.
While Hancock Prospecting has been involved in mining ventures in the past — it is the half-owner with Rio Tinto of the Hope Downs iron ore project that started operations in 2007 — this is the first time the company has been an owner-operator. Roy Hill’s ore is being mined by Roy Hill employees using Roy Hill equipment. “It’s been a dream, an aspiration and a heartfelt objective of Hancock and Mrs Rinehart in particular to be owner-miners,” says Fitzgerald.

This moment has been two decades coming. Hancock Prospecting pegged the Roy Hill lease in December 1992, barely six months after the death of founder Lang Hancock left his daughter, Rinehart, in charge of the company. Today, Rinehart is Australia’s richest person, with a fortune estimated at more than $20bn, thanks largely to the massive royalties that flow from the Hope Downs project. At the time of her father’s death, however, Hancock Prospecting was struggling financially. Eventually, Rinehart would have to relinquish half of the Roy Hill tenements (they were picked up by Fortescue) to continue to fund exploration and drilling on the deposit. Hope Downs, where Ginia spent a year performing a variety of sometimes unglamorous roles, was also a significant, though rewarding and ultimately enriching, distraction.

By late 2009, Hancock had done enough drilling on the Roy Hill deposit to convince South ­Korean steel giant POSCO, a putative iron ore customer, and fellow South Korean investor STX Corp to provide $332m to fund a feasibility study and start dredging the Port Hedland harbour. Two years later, an Asian consortium paid $3.2bn for a 30 per cent stake in Roy Hill, leaving POSCO with 12.5 per cent, Japan’s Marubeni with 15 per cent and China Steel Corp with 2.5 per cent.

In March this year, Hancock completed funding of the project after securing a $US7.2bn debt ­facility backed by five export credit agencies and 19 commercial banks, including all of Australia’s Big Four banks. It is, says Rinehart, the “largest mainland mining resource financing project in the world”.
“As a mining engineer, to be involved with this type of world-class project is a dream come true,” says Watroba, who was hired by Lang Hancock and serves as Rinehart’s right-hand man. “Seeing how the thing grows above the ground now, like a mushroom ... I get emotional.”

Today, there are 3800 people working on the Roy Hill project from the mine site to the sea. When it is operational, the project will employ 2000. The fly-in fly-out workforce lives in the Roy Hill camp, a brand new township of neat roads and lawns about 10km from the airstrip. Rinehart, whose attention to detail extended to the curbs on the roads and the ochre colour of the pathways, wanted to set a new benchmark for worker accommodation. The circular community is set around a central dining hall, gym, administration block and auditorium that doubles as a cinema.
There’s a tavern (beer is mid-strength), swimming pool (there is low-level grumbling it should be heated in winter), a beach volleyball pit, BBQ facilities and, coming soon, cooking masterclasses.

At a small, outside dinner in the “executive wing” of the camp that evening, Rinehart thanks Hancock’s joint venture partners and banks. She talks of the challenges she and Watroba have overcome over 20 years to reach this halfway milestone — the early financial struggles, the government decision to hand its land at Port Hedland to rival companies (it eventually resecured two berths), the battle for rail access and raising funds in the post-financial crisis environment.

“This is emotional,” she says, echoing Watroba’s words. “To have worked on the project quite a while, to have risked, as we have done … These are some of the giant risks you have when you’re trying to do a major project for Australia. And this really is a project Aus­tralia can be a proud of.
“It’s going to be one of the biggest iron ore mines in Australia. It’s also one of the largest in the world. It’s all happening in Aus­tralia. If I die tomorrow, the project is here, it will keep going, employing Australians. And it’s not just the project that employs, it’s the related businesses.”

To an audience that includes senior Roy Hill staff, three Liberal senators, her joint venture partners and a handful of Asian media representatives, Rinehart launches a passion­ate defence of the role of the mining industry in Aus­tralia, its role as an employer and revenue creator to help the nation “pay back our record debt”. Mining, she says, is not a dirty word; “It’s an essential word”.
She praises the Roy Hill staff, from Fitzgerald down, for their commitment to the project, and echoes the comments of all the senior management about a rigorous focus on keeping costs down and making Roy Hill one of the most cost-competitive iron ore projects in Australia. Here, too, the government could help by helping to tackle rising costs crimping Australian business, starting with the repeal of the mining tax. “It’s not about making Gina richer, or anything stupid and shortsighted like that,” she says. “It’s about making our country sustainable in world markets.”

Rinehart agrees her father would be very proud of Hancock’s success at Roy Hill. “He dedicated much of his adult life to what I’ve also been trying to do,” she says later. But here, on the night, Ginia is the only one of Lang Hancock’s grandchildren to share the moment. A battle over the Hope Margaret Hancock Trust, established by Hancock to hold 25 per cent of his flagship company for his grandchildren, has played out publicly and painfully in the courts, pitting Rinehart and her two youngest daughters Ginia and, later, Hope against her two eldest children from her first marriage, John and Bianca.

Shortly before flying out from the Roy Hill airstrip, Rinehart says she’s “thrilled to bits” Ginia has joined her on the visit. “It’s lovely because one, she’s my daughter and two, the next generation,” she says. “These are the types of projects the next generation needs and this project, so long as we keep costs down and get our act together, will be around for decades.”

[frantic]

Yup only one case of 457 visa workers being abused.:angel:
Taiwanese meatworkers in Scone underpaid, encouraged not to pay tax, says union - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-06/taiwanese-meatworkers-harassed-told-not-to-pay-tax-unions-say/5304258)

Late pay and long hours, workers say (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/late-pay-and-long-hours-workers-say-20130325-2gqla.html)

Only 137 infringements in 2011.

Employers avoid fines despite visa abuse sanctions (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/employers-avoid-fines-despite-visa-abuse-sanctions-20110725-1hx98.html)

Cut n paste from submission by actu into 457 visa rule changes.
The latest DIBP figures for 2013-14 show professionals made up 46.7% of all visa grants, while technicians and trade workers made up 26.6% of all visa grants. As at 31 December 2013, there were 40, 930 professionals working on 457 visas and 25, 900 technicians and trade workers (out of a total of 90, 780 subclass 457 primary visa holders in Australia). 31
At the same time, there are currently 67 000 technicians and trades workers unemployed and 77 400 underemployed – that is, 144 400 technicians and trades workers who are looking for work or who want more work than they currently have; 8.5% of the 1.691 million trades and technician workers.
There are currently 83 700 unemployed and 120 800 professionals underemployed – that is, 204 500 professionals who are looking for work or who want more work than they currently have, nearly 8% of the 2.566 million professionals.32
http://www.actu.org.au/Images/Dynamic/attachments/8217/ACTU%20Submission%20to%20the%20457%20review%202014 %20-%2030%20April%202014.pdf

There are a lot of interesting figures in there that they obtained from ABS , items like unemployment rate increasing in certain areas along with 100% plus increase In the number of 457 workers in the same field.

For the second half of 2012 , 134 infringement notices, more in 6 months than for the previous 12. DIAC refutes 457 visa claims by CFMEU | CMN Immigration Lawyers Australia (http://www.immigrationlaw.com.au/document-800494333/diac-refutes-457-visa-claims-by-cfmeu)

[nugge t]

As usual, lots of claims but all refuted.. Even Chris Bowen's spokesperson refuted the CFMUE's claims.


"But a spokesperson for immigration minister Chris Bowen said visas issued across all levels of the construction industry fell from 4,617 to 4,442 in the first half of this financial year (July 2012-December 2012) compared with the corresponding period in the previous year."


If companies, or labour hire mobs rort it, they should be bought to account. End of story. You will excuse me if I don't take an ACTU submission or an ABC article as proof of life.


Both of the articles you linked are in March. Has anyone been charged or any action taken?

[bob10]

"My intent in posting this was not to generate a debate on the ill informed $2/hr wage claim or 457 visa's."

\Good luck with that, mate, Bob.

[nugge t]

"My intent in posting this was not to generate a debate on the ill informed $2/hr wage claim or 457 visa's."

\Good luck with that, mate, Bob.


you are right Bob...and I should have know better :D

[Hoges]

One of the massive changes which globalisation has brought is that every worker in Australia has a competitor either here or overseas for the income they are currently receiving.

Let me explain: when you go for a job generally you have three benefits to offer an employer: knowledge, skills and aptitude. And they come at a price!
In a free market economy, there are no intrinsic "rights". The 30+ something hr week, 4 weeks annual leave, 2 weeks sick leave, 10-11 (working ) days public holiday, training leave, maternity leave, 9-12% superannuation on top etc . Great!:D

But then we have equally smart/smarter people in other countries who are willing to work 50 hrs a week, 2 weeks annual leave, 5 days public holiday, no sick leave, no superannuation (no Centrelink either!). They have the knowledge, skills and aptitude to do the job. Plus at a significantly reduced wage !

It's not hard to see where the investors put their funds.... and who would blame them! I don't hear of union bosses taking a paycut when through their constant "bargaining" = killing the golden goose, they effectively price their members out of the market. It's not just the loss of jobs which deeply disturbs me, it's the national skill base / capability we collectively lose as a result...

[isuzurover]

probably at least 3,800 people would disgree with you

That figure is very rubbery. Other sources say the direct workforce will peak at 3500 during construction. At least 200 of them are apparently 457 visa workers.

Let's pick a more realistic figure of 2000 people when the mine is operational. That is 0.017% of the working public at present.

If they choose to use autonomous haul trucks as many mines are doing then that figure could drop dramatically.




I suspect and over 40 million reasons a year in the local economy why you are wrong, every one with a $ sign in front of it.:D

I think you have some numbers wrong there??? Or if so it shows how pitiful the flow on benefit to towns near mining communities is - given they are spending almost $4 Billion a year developing the mine.

[Mick_Marsh]

I have several extended family members in jobs associated with the mining industry. They are all worried because the wages they are being paid they believe are unsustainably high! A couple of them are quietly looking to apply their engineering skills in a different industry albeit at a lesser wage but with more certainty of longer term employment...
In the news today:
Australia's mining engineers fear job prospects are limited despite $16b Queensland mine approval - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-30/australias-mining-engineers-fear-job-prospects-limited/5634362)

[nugge t]

That figure is very rubbery. Other sources say the direct workforce will peak at 3500 during construction. At least 200 of them are apparently 457 visa workers.

Let's pick a more realistic figure of 2000 people when the mine is operational. That is 0.017% of the working public at present.

If they choose to use autonomous haul trucks as many mines are doing then that figure could drop dramatically.




I think you have some numbers wrong there??? Or if so it shows how pitiful the flow on benefit to towns near mining communities is - given they are spending almost $4 Billion a year developing the mine.

Well all the reports quote the same number but I am sure you will never accept that asit doesn't support your view of the mine. Obviously if you can not see value in even 2,000 jobs then you obviously had no problem with Ford or Holden closing up shop either.

Just so you know the figure was purely a speculative one by me based on 3,800 on an average wage of 150k so it was purely payroll. I wouldn't have thought that was too out of the ball park although I suspect it would be higher...you know all those fat cat bosses sitting around on the big bucks ripping off the workers and all:D

[nugge t]

In the news today:
Australia's mining engineers fear job prospects are limited despite $16b Queensland mine approval - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-30/australias-mining-engineers-fear-job-prospects-limited/5634362)

Sadly I think he is rught Mick. My personal opinion for the last 10 years has been that the high wages in mining were unsustainable. It just never made any sense to me when every other industry was desperately trying to reduce costs, mining was handing out money hand over fist.

My accountant lives near the new Qld coal mine area and his comment the other day was...

"Bloody mining created the problem. Now they can bloody well fix it.'

Manufacturing has largely been priced out of business but the penny just doesn't seem to be dropping, but again, that is just my personal opinion.

[frantic]

First the claim, of only one case of abuse of 457. I have given you 2 links that show over 200 in financial year 2011-12 and the first half of 2012-13 from Abbotts bosses paper the tele and the competition herald.
If they hand out 100 plus in 12 months with fines up to $6k and in the next 6 months hit another 139 companies with fines, there is obviously a fair bit going on.

Yes manufacturing is in trouble but again,the simplistic blame wages.

I'll again ask a simple question, if a direct competitor set up in NSW and was producing identical items, with wages being less than 3-5% cost of the item, to you BUT the NSW Govt gave them a 20% bonus for every item sold outside NSW how long would you remain in business based in Qld or Vic or SA nugget or hoges?

[nugge t]

Sorry I wasn't aware that you had asked the question the first time. Also as I have stated several times in this thread, I was hoping to keep to the topic of the thread and not turn it into a 457 discussion.

However, as you have clearly got a bee in you bonnet the answer to your question is quite complex although I am assuming you alone see the relevance of a hypothetical question relating to NSW and QLD/Vic inter trade.

The answer is that it would also depend on may factors relating to relative sizes of the 2 business's and also the sales volumes involved.

You see if the NSW were a big mob and the QLD lot were a small mob then NSW mob would be paying 5.45% payroll tax and the QLd mob might be paying no payroll tax. Also if the NSW mob had previously only been selling into NSW but were expanding into QLD then their freight cost could be quite high as they probably wouldn't be getting any special interstate rates which would erode any competitve advantage they got from the NSW Govt.

QLD apparently also has the lowest Workers Comp rates in the country as well so that would further offset. I haven't done a cost comparison between the various relative state and local government costs and charges such as rates, EPA licences etc between NSW and Qld so that also would need to be factored in. Did you happen to mention if the NSW company was using 457 workers as that would obviously have a dramatic effect as they are all ripped off with low wages. Does the NSW company have an internal Paid Parental Level Scheme because us rednecks in Qld don't have that fancy southern stuff.

By the way, when did NSW start giving 20% rebates to manufacturers? Is the 20% based on payroll, sales or profit? I might relocate.

Oh yeah, back to the actual topic of the thread, I still reckon it was a great article.

[frantic]

Was making it simpler for you. Up until BSL won the anti dumping case it was cheaper to buy a roll of strip steel in Brisbane or Shepparton than it was in shanghai or Beijing. Simply the Govt gives a 15-20% bonus to every exporters ton.
Throw in transport which is less than 1/70 th the cost of the product, difference in wages is at best 1-2.5% of total cost as equipment and raw,materials are vast majority.

So back to example, product of yours costs $7.00 dumped NSW product retails for $5.70 next door.( 20% discount + 1/70th. Transportation) Meanwhile back in NSW it sells for $6.99 to keep you out. To further make themselves more competitive NSW artificially lowers their dollar in relation to the Qld dollar. Oh and they don't have to bother with any emissions controls so production is faster and cheaper

All this is currently happening to the manufacturing industry in Australia and the rest of the world.

[nugge t]

You really have me confussed. I am not in the steel industry, I don't make anything that costs $7.00, last time I looked Qld and NSW both ran the same currency. Does Shepparton have a seperate currency again or is it the same as in QLD as that could explain the variation. I am told that exchange rates have significant impacts. Damnation, I was sure NSW had emissions controls, EPA etc although they do seem to lack depth in their rugby league team.

If NSW are still giving the 20% rebate can you confirm if it is based on payroll, sales or profit as that could influence any possible relocation. You must have missed the question in the last post.

So if car makers can make a car 6 times cheaper in Asia than in Australia and the wages are only 1 to 2.5% different, does that mean that the freight is 1/420th or 1/12th??? I get confused with all of this maths stuff.

Actually it was been happening to Australian manufacturing for a long time just that many haven't caught on to it and many more never will.

I still reckon the article this thread is actually about was a cracker.

[isuzurover]

...

I still reckon the article this thread is actually about was a cracker.

Actually I think it is a puff piece and shows the usual bias of what once used to be a good newspaper.

The Oz has been found to be in breach of the regs by ACMA several times, unfortunately they are a toothess tiger.

Don't get me wrong - good on Gina for giving it a go, but Lang was the one with real talent and ability.

[nugge t]

yawn. I am sure the ABC would have done much better if they weren't so crippled with the bias some apparently applaud them for.

Subsequent generations are useless aren't they .. Kerry Packer, Warwick Fairfax...opps...sorry, that one might be a bit sensitive...

mate she has more than given it go...she has got it up and 50% complete. Fair go..give some credit.

[Mick_Marsh]

Was making it simpler for you. Up until BSL won the anti dumping case it was cheaper to buy a roll of strip steel in Brisbane or Shepparton than it was in shanghai or Beijing. Simply the Govt gives a 15-20% bonus to every exporters ton.
Throw in transport which is less than 1/70 th the cost of the product, difference in wages is at best 1-2.5% of total cost as equipment and raw,materials are vast majority.

So back to example, product of yours costs $7.00 dumped NSW product retails for $5.70 next door.( 20% discount + 1/70th. Transportation) Meanwhile back in NSW it sells for $6.99 to keep you out. To further make themselves more competitive NSW artificially lowers their dollar in relation to the Qld dollar. Oh and they don't have to bother with any emissions controls so production is faster and cheaper

All this is currently happening to the manufacturing industry in Australia and the rest of the world.
franic, I get what you're on about.
I know of a company in Geelong that, about five to tenyears ago, wanted to buy a few tonne of BHP steel. They priced the steel in Australia and, of course, overseas. It was cheaper to buy Australian made BHP steel from NZ. This was because, at the time, BHP received subsidies from the Au govt for exporting and the NZ company got subsidies from the NZ govt for exporting back to Australia.
I know a guy who used to do similar with pig meat. In his case, it was all done on paperwork. The pig meat never actually left the country. That was back in the days when Paul Keating was into pig farming.

[ramblingboy42]

I don't get it....

How does it all relate to the Roy Hill mine?

Perhaps I missed something earlier.

[nugge t]

Thank you. It doesn't and I tried several times to steer discussion back to the topic but some people only want to push their personal hobby horse and as such got the rubbish answers they deserved.

[Disco Muppet]

Interesting read :)

[isuzurover]

...mate she has more than given it go...she has got it up and 50% complete. Fair go..give some credit.

As I said before, good luck to her. However there are plenty of others I would give more credit than her - Andrew Forrest, Nathan Tinkler and Clive Palmer for example - despite the current circumstances of the latter two.

Roy Hill will be one of the largest iron ore mines in the world - so it certainly will be impressive.

[nugge t]

As I said before, good luck to her. However there are plenty of others I would give more credit than her - Andrew Forrest, Nathan Tinkler and Clive Palmer for example - despite the current circumstances of the latter two.

Roy Hill will be one of the largest iron ore mines in the world - so it certainly will be impressive.



Can but assume you are ripping the pee

[PAT303]

I'm not sure where you got your facts from Pat but according to the Australian Governments web site in 2012-13 we had 35 308 New Zealanders immigrate to Australia and 10 875 return home permanently.

And can I just say that 100% totally agree with what Nugget is saying here; it's all too easy for people to sit at home on their computers and bag those that are actually out there making things happen.

Ask anyone who works in the mines Sue,they are full of Kiwi's,many fly back to NZ after their shifts,nothing against them but they are pushing work for the dole big time over here so why not get local people into mining?. Pat

[isuzurover]

Can but assume you are ripping the pee

Why? Clive is still doing OK financially (despite the buffoon facade). Nathan should have stopped before he got into horse racing and nrl teams. Both though started with nothing (or close to it).

Gina however started with a large fortune and one of the world's largest iron ore deposits. She has turned that into a smaller fortune [at least in NPV terms] and half a mine. I will be more impressed once the mine has been producing reliably for a few years.

[Sue]

Ask anyone who works in the mines Sue,they are full of Kiwi's,many fly back to NZ after their shifts,nothing against them but they are pushing work for the dole big time over here so why not get local people into mining?. Pat

Oh of course.. how silly of me. I should have just asked someone who works in the mines rather than trusting the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

*slaps forehead*

;)

[AndyG]

As one of many Aussie expats working overseas, I am uncomfortable with the notion of Aussie jobs for Aussies only. The logic would then say no Aussies in New York, London , or png, each to his own backyard.

[nugge t]

Why? Clive is still doing OK financially (despite the buffoon facade). Nathan should have stopped before he got into horse racing and nrl teams. Both though started with nothing (or close to it).

Gina however started with a large fortune and one of the world's largest iron ore deposits. She has turned that into a smaller fortune [at least in NPV terms] and half a mine. I will be more impressed once the mine has been producing reliably for a few years.

Clive is being investigated for a missing $10mil which could have all sorts of legal if not criminal implications and Nathan didn't stop before he got into horseracing and nrl. So how smart has he been.

I am not sure if putting them up is a reflection of your admiration of them or the true indication of the dislike of Gina.

[bob10]

This is interesting, Bob


http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/images/pagetitles/generictitle.png


http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/images/navigation/home.png (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/home)
http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/images/navigation/about-over.png (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/about-hancock-prospecting)

Company Overview (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/about-hancock-prospecting/company-overview)
Board and Senior Management (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/about-hancock-prospecting/board-and-senior-management)
Hancock Timeline (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/about-hancock-prospecting/hancock-timeline)
Hancock Family Medical Foundation (Inc) (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/about-hancock-prospecting/hancock-family-medical-foundation-inc)


http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/images/navigation/currentprojects.png (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/current-projects)
http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/images/navigation/news.png (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/news-and-presentations)
http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/images/navigation/employment.png (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/employment)
http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/images/navigation/contact.png (http://www.hancockprospecting.com.au/go/contact)


About Hancock Prospecting

Hancock Prospecting Pty Ltd (HPPL) is an Australian company that has a long and important association with the Pilbara and the iron ore sector. The group HPPL has significant plans for further development in both the Pilbara region of Western Australia and other areas in Australia.
Since the discovery of iron ore by the company’s founder Lang Hancock in 1952 and lifting of the Federal Government embargo on iron ore imports in 1960, and the subsequent lifting of the State Government’s embargo on pegging land for iron ore tenements, a progression of 10 world class iron ore mines (the first Tom Price in 1966) have been developed from original Hancock discoveries.
In December 1992 Hope Downs Iron Ore entered a State Agreement to gain security for the Hope Downs tenements. The Hope Downs mine has commenced, (November 2007) with 50 percent partners Rio Tinto Iron Ore (RTIO). A second mine at Hope Downs 1 South commenced November 2008.
The Hope Downs Project represents an important milestone for the company. For the first time, the HPPL group has retained a significant equity stake in a developed world class project, indeed now two mines. This had been a long term vision of HPPL’s founder Mr Lang Hancock, and shared by his daughter, Gina Rinehart the current chairman of HPPL, which for the first time is being realised.
With the capability and experience gained through the development of earlier projects and bankable feasibility studies such as Marandoo and more recently Hope Downs, Hancock is looking forward to a productive future involving the successful development of its next major iron ore project, Roy Hill 1, and its steaming coal projects in Queensland and other projects in the HPPL group portfolio."

[BMKal]

Roy Hill hits construction halfway mark | Mining Australia (http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/roy-hill-hits-construction-halfway-mark'mid=fb0c1816bc&utm_source=Cirrus+Media+Newsletters&utm_campaign=d730e8dd88-Mining+Australia+Newsletter+-+201407301229&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fe913f1856-d730e8dd88-60057509)

[ramblingboy42]

Well . that is a very informative website with links to employment opportunities throughout Ginas enterprises and a dedicated employment link to Roy Hill.

What are you all waiting for?

Put your CV's forward and you may participate in one of Australia's most exciting ventures.

[incisor]

Clive is being investigated for a missing $10mil which could have all sorts of legal if not criminal implications

but he has won all the court cases thus far it has to be said, much to the yanks dislike ....

but yep it is a ripping yarn with some more to come.

personally, tho i don't go much on his business ethics, twiggy seems to be intent on doing something for those less fortunate.. and yes i know the others have tax write off foundations as well...

from what little i have heard, i like what he is currently having to say....

[nugge t]

The thing I find so amazing about these projects is the investment $'s put in and the long leadtime before there is any possibility of a return. At this stage the only people not being paid are the investors.

"To date more than 11.7 million hours have been worked on the development of the site, with around a three quarters of the committed $8.4 billion expenditure of the project going to Australian suppliers.

More than half a million tonnes of high grade iron ore have been stockpiled, five of the 11 rail bridges are constructed, more than 70 kilometres of rail has been laid, and the first mineral processing plant steel modules have been delivered."

Half a million tonnes stockpiled at what..$100/tonne. Lots of $'s used to get that out of the ground let alone to have it stockpiled.

I think Clive's real problem is with the Chinese and they don't appear to be willing to bullied. Last I heard they were calling for him to be charged with fraud but their may have been some update on that.

[frantic]

Furore over Rinehart’s guest workers (http://m.afr.com/p/business/companies/furore_over_rinehart_guest_workers_SV8zHafIGC1zNaD DqOUIHJ)

It's amazing the difference in attitudes from one miner to the next.
One has a few 457 employed via specialist contractors, the other wanted an entire workforce until the recession bit.
One wants to raise all Australians up, the other wants to f... Better not say it. I guess it's the difference between the founder and the 2nd generation.
The Chinese have a saying about businesses, first gen founder, second gen stabilise or grow, third destroy or break up. Have a look at what's happening to the Hancock / Rinehart "family ".

[frantic]

As one of many Aussie expats working overseas, I am uncomfortable with the notion of Aussie jobs for Aussies only. The logic would then say no Aussies in New York, London , or png, each to his own backyard.

Actually I support the original intent of the 457 visa scheme which was for specialists to fill holes and train up aussies in jobs we have little or no skilled workers.
Not the way it's being used currently, to push down wages and get workers who are to scared to say no.
If you go to other first world countries there are various levels limits and times you can work there.

[nugge t]

Even though the best that can be found apparently is a 2year old newspaper report, the union line wasn't even supported by their mate, the then Minister.....

The government defended the move ,with Immigration Minister Chris Bowen saying the visa holders would be engaged on the same pay and conditions as Australian workers. A “Jobs Board” would be set up to ensure that foreign workers were only recruited after “genuine efforts to first employ Australians”.

“With more than 8000 workers required during the construction phase of the Roy Hill projects, there simply aren’t enough people in the local workforce to get the job done,” Mr Bowen said.

But Special Minister of State Gary Gray told an Australian Mines and Metals Association conference in Perth that the government had consulted widely over EMAs for about three years. “Unions and other stakeholders all have had their say,” he said. “End of story.”

The company applied, the Government of the day agreed but some with a particular barrow to push have been squealing about it even since.

As Clive said...

" “I’d rather have 3000 jobs in three years than no jobs at all. And that’s what it boils down to.” "

If they did something illegal, charge them, if they didn't, move on and find another hobby horse as this one is flogged to death.

[PAT303]

Oh of course.. how silly of me. I should have just asked someone who works in the mines rather than trusting the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

*slaps forehead*

;)

Your making a mountain out of a mole hill,on the news this morning they are reporting a dole card and welfare reforms etc etc,why don't we give these people a go and break the welfare cycle?. Pat

[nugge t]

Actually I support the original intent of the 457 visa scheme which was for specialists to fill holes and train up aussies in jobs we have little or no skilled workers.
Not the way it's being used currently, to push down wages and get workers who are to scared to say no.
If you go to other first world countries there are various levels limits and times you can work there.

Can you supply the evidence of this please as I would have thought it would be illegal to pay less than award. I am assuming there would be a series of rulings against companies via Fairwork if this is truely the "way it's currently being used".

On the other hand it may be operating legally but just not the way unions want..that is quite different and doesn't make it illegal.

[Hoges]

We wouldn't have crops picked were it not for the 457 visas issued to south sea islander people who come here each season then go back home.

They are well paid, trained, fed, housed etc AND they have a work ethic. Country towns have been begging the Govt to release asylum seekers to work on local farms and improve their local economies.

I used to work double shift putting the sticks in icey-poles in an ice cream factory years ago to pay my way while I studied part time. No free passes there.. Other mates headed for the bush and worked on farms as fruit pickers etc.

Then again we can just keep spending, borrowing tens of millions of dollars a week on the international bond market ... and then we get into the strife where Argentina is !

[ramblingboy42]

Dont cry for me Argentina.....

and don't pretend for a minute that you didn't sing it.....or you're not humming it to yourself now.....

[frantic]

Already supplied evidence, if you don't read or accept it, not my problem.

There is the BASE award and then there is the negotiated eba. Some people ;) believe in only a base pay rate and a bonus at their whim, others prefer the extras set in concrete via eba's.
Now if twiggy was prepared to pay locals and FIFO workers $x over base rate to work at his WA mine why is it, here's a foreign word, MORALLY acceptable for Gina to pay less next door, still at or over award, to her 457 workers or turn a blind eye while her subbies push them to do extra hours for no extra pay?

Here's a simple question do all speeding fine **** as a breach of the law to you, or only the ones taken to court and convicted? You seem to be applying this "logic" to visa employer offences.
Sponsor Monitoring | Migration Blog (http://migrationblog.immi.gov.au/category/sponsor-monitoring/)

[ramblingboy42]

is there a song about Roy Hill or iron ore?

Didn't Twiggy have a band?

He might know one.

[DiscoMick]

Rags to riches to rags in three generations is the English version of that saying, I think.
If Gina can make her mine work then good on her, but not if she rorts it to exclude Aussie workers in favour of underpaid 457s.

[nugge t]

Dont cry for me Argentina.....

and don't pretend for a minute that you didn't sing it.....or you're not humming it to yourself now.....

got me!! it is impossible not to :D

[nugge t]

You have not supplied any proof just union rants and newspaper clips of people's claims and heresay.

I have no idea of what rates Roy Hill Mine pays. Do you have proof that they are illegally underpaying workers or subbies.

If so, take it to the relavent authorities... report it to Fair Work and let them sort it out.

If you want a 457 discussion, start your own bloody thread.

[frantic]

Obviously my last link, bottom of last post,was a lie, I mean it's a blog. By the dept of immigration, but they would obviously lie.
I mean they inspect roughly 1% give over 10% of those fines, but their all fibs by the department .:D (figures given on their site where about 1000 inspections to 100,000 plus on 457 visas)

You started 2 threads, one on Gina one on Twiggy, but don't like comparisons? Hmm, maybe you can tell us why Gina in the mine next door needed to employ 1700, 457 visa workers compared to fortescue bringing in a few subbies with specialists, going out of his way to employ locals?

[nugge t]

Fantastic.


During the 2011-12 financial year, the department conducted more than 1000 site visits to sponsors, and sanctioned 125 of them. Further, the department issued 49 infringement notices for failure of the obligations, totalling $219 120.


Then the system is working. Any bad eggs are getting weeded out and appropriate action taken. That is excellent. That is how the system is supposed to work so what is the problem.


In the year of a major campaign and crack down they found 12.5% did something wrong. You would assume that in a crack down many of the inspections were tip offs and as such a higher than normal % would be found. It also showed that 87.5% were doing the right thing. The blog doesn't rate the seriousness of the infringement but at an average fine of $4,471.84 it hardly appears to be dire compared to the fines handed to the CFMEU over its Grocon actions.


Try and get a bit of perspective in the thread you start on the topic.


Hmmmm maybe you could enlighten use on the relative stages of mining vs construction of the 2 mines. Just a wild guess but I reckon that might have something to do with it, not that it matters. If Gina is operating the construction of her mine within the law, using a system to which the Labor Government of the day agreed, then why should she have to answer to you or anyone else. Complain to your local Labor MP, not me.


I don't mind comparison at all but you are right..I started 2 threads, they are 2 separate subjects. I wasn't trying to compare the 2 or I would have started a thread called Gina v Twiggy. Again I invite you to start your own thread...maybe you could call it... I don't know why 457 visa's give me piles but I am complaining anyway.

[Hoges]

Already supplied evidence, if you don't read or accept it, not my problem.

There is the BASE award and then there is the negotiated eba. Some people ;) believe in only a base pay rate and a bonus at their whim, others prefer the extras set in concrete via eba's.
Now if twiggy was prepared to pay locals and FIFO workers $x over base rate to work at his WA mine why is it, here's a foreign word, MORALLY acceptable for Gina to pay less next door, still at or over award, to her 457 workers or turn a blind eye while her subbies push them to do extra hours for no extra pay?

Here's a simple question do all speeding fine **** as a breach of the law to you, or only the ones taken to court and convicted? You seem to be applying this "logic" to visa employer offences.
Sponsor Monitoring | Migration Blog (http://migrationblog.immi.gov.au/category/sponsor-monitoring/)

Roy hill would have been developed on a different cost base to existing mines. No two businesses are exactly the same. what's more you don't know what forward contract prices for the ore have been negotiated nor the interest rates on the borrowings...all of these costs including wages have to be juggled to ensure the NPV for the project is positive.. if it's not then the ore stays in the ground. Then it's not worth anything to anyone...

Like I said in a previous post.. Everyone has a price.. the buyer of labour and the seller of labour... it's a free market. With globalisation, labour can be obtained on the global market... nobody is forcing anybody to work at roy Hil!

[frantic]

Fantastic.


During the 2011-12 financial year, the department conducted more than 1000 site visits to sponsors, and sanctioned 125 of them. Further, the department issued 49 infringement notices for failure of the obligations, totalling $219 120.


Then the system is working. Any bad eggs are getting weeded out and appropriate action taken. That is excellent. That is how the system is supposed to work so what is the problem. Umm no a 6% inspection ratio that is continuing to drop year in year out is not working.


In the year of a major campaign and crack down they found 12.5% did something wrong. You would assume that in a crack down many of the inspections were tip offs and as such a higher than normal % would be found. It also showed that 87.5% were doing the right thing. The blog doesn't rate the seriousness of the infringement but at an average fine of $4,471.84 it hardly appears to be dire compared to the fines handed to the CFMEU over its Grocon actions. again no major crackdown AND in that year alone 50% where warned after visits, same year before, only :eek:30% warned the 12-13 year


Try and get a bit of perspective in the thread you start on the topic.


Hmmmm maybe you could enlighten use on the relative stages of mining vs construction of the 2 mines. Just a wild guess but I reckon that might have something to do with it, not that it matters. If Gina is operating the construction of her mine within the law, using a system to which the Labor Government of the day agreed, then why should she have to answer to you or anyone else. Complain to your local Labor MP, not me.


I don't mind comparison at all but you are right..I started 2 threads, they are 2 separate subjects. I wasn't trying to compare the 2 or I would have started a thread called Gina v Twiggy. Again I invite you to start your own thread...maybe you could call it... I don't know why 457 visa's give me piles but I am complaining anyway.


No 457 don't give me "piles" but you dismissing it as "1 case in WA" is a proven blatant fallacy that you refuse to admit even when given govt backed evidence is amusing. :D


Heres a little link. Far from your "crackdown" myth(the sanctions increased by 50% the next year);) , they increased inspections the next year , and guess what more again warned and sanctioned, but still pathetic as doing 1800 inspections to 30,000 sponsors is only just 6%.
http://www.migrationcouncil.org.au/assets/files/f700eb611.pdf
page 18 the figures from a government databse, but again they all lie don't they. Hell they did over 2000 inspections 2 years earlier with less sanctions and infringement notices , but again that tells you nothing?


Compliance and sanctions under the 457 visa are grossly inadequate.


Effective legislative oversight can only function with a monitoring regime that


supports those employers who do the right thing and sanctions those who


are exploitative and profiteers.


Departmental activity for 2012-13 illustrate this inadequacy:


2010--‐11


2011--‐12


2012--‐13


Active


Sponsors


18520


22450


30090


Sponsors


monitored


2091


1754


1857


Site


visits


814


856


1238


Formally


sanctioned


140


125


217


Formally


warned


453


449


302


Referrals


to


other


agencies


61


18


12


Infringement


notice


9


49


68


Pecuniary


penalty


by


Federal


Court


0


1


0


(Source: DIBP Annual Report 2012-13, p.78)


so more sanctioned, less warned, more infringements.





Hoges with globalization it is ever more important not to undercut ourselves as we would condemn a vast majority of the population to poverty. With a growing unemployment base there are going to be people who could do a lot of the 100,000 jobs these 457 visa holders are being used for currently, to me it makes sense to tend our own, rather than import others
As to not being worth anything, it would be eventually and we would have ensured well paid employment to a future generation.
Forcing is an interesting word as some of the visa holders have been threatened with loss of passport or instant deportation if they complained on other sites.

[nugge t]

when you can post the link in a readable format, not a jigsaw puzzle it might have meaning but like the rest of your post, it is not worth the effort.

You appear to be on some sort of retainer to beat up the issue but there just isn't the documentary support for your claim that the 457 system is being used to drive down wages or that that there is any widespread, systematic chronic rorting of the system. From your own figures both Governments have had inspections and found little . The level of fines is small and your information gives no indication as to what was the breach or the seriousness of it. From the information, the breach can only be judged by the level of fine. An average of a bit over 4k hardly suggest a smoking gun.


The 2.5 million fines imposed on the CFMEU over Grocon, well that is another matter. That is a story of systematic disregard for the law.


I missed your answer on whether Roy Hill has found to be in contravention of their agreement?


Maybe you should ask why neither Govt has increased the level of inspections? Could it possibly be that there just isn't a sufficient or significant problem? There has been 1 major contravention in WA. When there are half a dozen more like that, raise it again.


Until then, I would respectfully ask you for the last time to stop hijacking this thread with your pet subject. If you wish to continue the debate, please open your own thread.

[frantic]

when you can post the link in a readable format, not a jigsaw puzzle it might have meaning but like the rest of your post, it is not worth the effort.

You appear to be on some sort of retainer to beat up the issue but there just isn't the documentary support for your claim that the 457 system is being used to drive down wages or that that there is any widespread, systematic chronic rorting of the system. From your own figures both Governments have had inspections and found little . The level of fines is small and your information gives no indication as to what was the breach or the seriousness of it. From the information, the breach can only be judged by the level of fine. An average of a bit over 4k hardly suggest a smoking gun.


The 2.5 million fines imposed on the CFMEU over Grocon, well that is another matter. That is a story of systematic disregard for the law.


I missed your answer on whether Roy Hill has found to be in contravention of their agreement?


Maybe you should ask why neither Govt has increased the level of inspections? Could it possibly be that there just isn't a sufficient or significant problem? There has been 1 major contravention in WA. When there are half a dozen more like that, raise it again.


Until then, I would respectfully ask you for the last time to stop hijacking this thread with your pet subject. If you wish to continue the debate, please open your own thread.

Actually that was pasted , but did not suit format,from page 18 in the link as I said, if you cannot be bothered to read it, don't respond;)

To you 50% for 2 years and 30% of breaches in the third year for sites inspected (only 6% of total sites)is minor! to most it highlights a major problem.
You posted a link about Gina and Roy hill who are well known for their EMS for 1700 visa workers and then say that there has only been one breach.

Your "comeback" is to mention, twice ,CFMEU being fined? , and still get the figures wrong:D
No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/defiant-cfmeu-to-be-fined-125m-for-blockading-building-sites/story-fni0fee2-1226869629332?nk=513e43c211faf239da18f2747c5ed714)
Now that's a joke, I'll send em $41 bucks;) they where fined for having a strike and protest in front of the gates. Also to top the cake , if you did a bit of research the CFMEU is not the main union at Roy hill, DOH!
To me it is an excessive fine compared to what lennons copped for not putting a speed limiting brake system on their trucks, and not keeping on top of drivers fines and truck maintenance that led to three deaths.
Company that employed killer truckie Vincent George fined $1.3 million (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/company-that-employed-killer-truckie-vincent-george-fined-13-million-20140801-zzbzz.html)
Actually using your "logic" nugget, lennons has only had one breach as only 1 of the 192 fines against their trucks went to court, is that how it works in your head?

Both those subjects of CFMEU and lennons have nothing to do with Roy hill, but to most their original intent on workforce sourcing does.
As to breaches? Have to wait and see if it moves further;)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/claims-457-workers-at-roy-hill-exploited/story-fn3dxiwe-1226874414784

[nugge t]

Actually that was pasted , but did not suit format,from page 18 in the link as I said, if you cannot be bothered to read it, don't respond;)

To you 50% for 2 years and 30% of breaches in the third year for sites inspected (only 6% of total sites)is minor! to most it highlights a major problem.
You posted a link about Gina and Roy hill who are well known for their EMS for 1700 visa workers and then say that there has only been one conviction.

Your "comeback" is to mention, twice ,CFMEU being fined? , and still get the figures wrong:D
No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/defiant-cfmeu-to-be-fined-125m-for-blockading-building-sites/story-fni0fee2-1226869629332?nk=513e43c211faf239da18f2747c5ed714)
Now that's a joke, I'll send em $41 bucks;) they where fined for having a strike and protest in front of the gates. Also to top the cake , if you did a bit of research the CFMEU is not the main union at Roy hill, DOH!
To me it is an excessive fine compared to what lennons copped for not putting a speed limiting brake system on their trucks, and not keeping on top of drivers fines and truck maintenance that led to three deaths.
Company that employed killer truckie Vincent George fined $1.3 million (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/company-that-employed-killer-truckie-vincent-george-fined-13-million-20140801-zzbzz.html)

Both those subjects of CFMEU and lennons have nothing to do with Roy hill, but to most their original intent on workforce sourcing does.
As to breaches? Have to wait and see if it moves further;)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/claims-457-workers-at-roy-hill-exploited/story-fn3dxiwe-1226874414784


Not just me showing apathy to your hobby horse. Successive Governments don't see your smoking pop gun. The fines are relative as they show a level of seriousness as imposed by the legal system of the country. You are right..the fines were ONLY 1.25million for I think 3 or 5 breaches as opposed to 219K for 50 odd sanctions. Get a grip.


It doesn't matter if the CFMUE is involved at Roy Hill or not, it is about the relative seriousness of the actions.


Your comeback is to not illustrate if Roy Hill has been in breach of its agreement. Now this is particularly relevant as they not only have a legal agreement but as far as I am aware they have not been in breach of that agreement. I know you find this particularly galling because Gina is such a bad person for having money.


Love your link..another whistle blower, although you haven't had much success with them uptil now. The real gold though is who has complained to Abetz...the CFMUE...ROFFPMS.

[incisor]

more interesting reading if your in to gina..

Gina Rinehart the 'corporate welfare' queen (http://www.smh.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/gina-rinehart-the-corporate-welfare-queen-20140325-35eq3.html)

[frantic]

Not just me showing apathy to your hobby horse. Successive Governments don't see your smoking pop gun. The fines are relative as they show a level of seriousness as imposed by the legal system of the country. You are right..the fines were ONLY 1.25million for I think 3 or 5 breaches as opposed to 219K for 50 odd sanctions. Get a grip.


It doesn't matter if the CFMUE is involved at Roy Hill or not, it is about the relative seriousness of the actions.


Your comeback is to not illustrate if Roy Hill has been in breach of its agreement. Now this is particularly relevant as they not only have a legal agreement but as far as I am aware they have not been in breach of that agreement. I know you find this particularly galling because Gina is such a bad person for having money.

Obviously relative, employer rips of employee, fined average of $4000 according to you.
Employee removes labour and stops work, their fined 1,250,000.

Employer through neglect, contributes to 3 deaths, fined 1.3 million, now last time I checked the strike and protest didn't kill anyone, yet has the same penalty.

You've quoted, wrongly twice, CFMEU fines, but don't like what they claim to find?:D

As to your money claim, you've posted both fortescue's Twiggy and Roy hill's Gina and the differences are apparent in their care for the community.
Twiggy will invest in programs to help farmers and indigenous, Gina wants to buy a paper to look good and voice her options on welfare, whilst getting a version of it herself :D
There is a difference between being a shrewd businessman like bill gates, Warren Buffet, Twiggy Forest, who is also doing massive amounts for poor people, to being a Gina or jobs, both of whom had daughters they had fights with over $$$$.
The Giving Pledge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Pledge)

[nugge t]

"Gina wants to buy a paper to look good and voice her options on welfare"


Can you please supply the documentary evidence to support this claim please. I thought she was only interested in profits.


CFMEU Fines from Grocon action...


Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/cfmeu-fined-125m-over-melbourne-grocon-protests/story-e6frg6nf-1226869621624?nk=d26639ed5619286aa0c00f393ad44e42)




BUILDERS have hailed a $1.25 million fine imposed on Australia’s biggest construction union as a “defining moment’’ for the industry.


The militant Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union could also face heavy court costs after being fined for a mixture of civil and criminal contempt offences on the Melbourne sites of construction giant Grocon in 2012 and 2013.


The fines against the CFMEU, handed down today by Justice Anthony Cavanough in the Supreme Court in Melbourne, constitute some of the heaviest penalties levied against a union.


Federal Employment Minister Eric Abetz called the fines unprecedented.


The CFMEU was found to be in contempt for a series of blockades it instituted on the Emporium site in Melbourne’s CBD and at two other Grocon sites.


The protests were seen as retaliation for the company’s decision not to bow to union pressure to gain control over its building sites, although the CFMEU said at the time the conflict was over safety issues.


Grocon called the ruling a defining moment for the construction industry.


“It should be clear to the Victorian CFMEU that old-style bullying and intimidation has no place in a modern workplace or the broader union movement,’’ the company said in a statement.


“The construction industry must take a stand to eradicate this sort of lawless behaviour and require all players to simply obey the law.


“We welcome what is a defining moment today for the construction industry and the rule of law.’’


Master Builders Australia said the penalty “highlights that the unions officials do not behave like normal people or see themselves bound by the rule of law like everyone else’’.


“The Victorian Supreme Court judgment also reinforces the urgent need for the restoration of the Australian Building and Construction Commission to suppress acts of industrial thuggery,’’ said CEO Wilhelm Harnisch.


Victorian Planning Minister Matthew Guy said the fines were the “the strongest ruling of its kind against a union in Australia’’ and sent a strong message to the union.


Victorian Opposition Leader Daniel Andrews labelled the illegal CFMEU blockade appalling.


“The court has ruled no one is above the law,’’ he said.


“The fine should be paid in full and it should be paid promptly.


“What went on was appalling behaviour. It should not happen again.’’


Justice Cavanough also indicated the CFMEU would have to pay Grocon’s court costs, meaning the union is likely to be liable for at least another $1 million in total costs.


He fined the union $250,000 for each of four contempt offences on the Emporium site in August 2012, and another $250,000 for two related contempt matters on other sites — one in 2013.


The fines stem from a series of protests in which mounted police had to be called in to escort Grocon workers through CFMEU pickets and on to the Emporium site on August 28, 2012.


Last year the court found the CFMEUs blockades breached injunctions and the union was in contempt of court.


Documents tendered to the court show the CFMEU Victorian/Tasmanian branch has the means to pay the hefty fine.


The branch had cash at bank and short-term deposits of $12.38 million with net assets of $51.93 million, according to the documents.


Net assets of $51.93 million....they are almost richer than Gina.


Amazing whilst normally the rhetoric is about a "collective" of mining magnates all be bad and evil, suddenly Twiggy is a good guy even though he wants to quarantine 100% of peoples welfare which would normally cause you to have scrotum seizures.


Gina also has the support of a daughter of two as well but that wouldn't suit your demonization of her.


Have you started your 451 visa thread yet?

[isuzurover]

"Gina wants to buy a paper to look good and voice her options on welfare"


Can you please supply the documentary evidence to support this claim please. I thought she was only interested in profits.


...


OK now you are trolling surely? No sane person buys a newspaper in the current climate if "they are only interested in profits".

Profits from print media are tanking at about 15% per year last last I looked.

[nugge t]

OK now you are trolling surely? No sane person buys a newspaper in the current climate if "they are only interested in profits".

Profits from print media are tanking at about 15% per year last last I looked.



You are kidding right? Gina and profits has been the war cry of the Gina haters. According to them that is her sole purpose for being.


If my comment is trolling then the same would surely apply to the claim of her motives.


Perhaps if you want to be constructive you can supply the proof of the original claim as to why she was bidding for Fairfax.

[isuzurover]

You are kidding right? Gina and profits has been the war cry of the Gina haters. According to them that is her sole purpose for being.


If my comment is trolling then the same would surely apply to the claim of her motives.


Perhaps if you want to be constructive you can supply the proof of the original claim as to why she was bidding for Fairfax.

I'm sure you would include me in the hater camp? I gave you a completely different, documented motive other than profit.

[frantic]

Net assets of $51.93 million....they are almost richer than Gina.


Amazing whilst normally the rhetoric is about a "collective" of mining magnates all be bad and evil, suddenly Twiggy is a good guy even though he wants to quarantine 100% of peoples welfare which would normally cause you to have scrotum seizures.


Gina also has the support of a daughter of two as well but that wouldn't suit your demonization of her.
I Cut all the dribble, I already posted the CFMEU link along with stating it had nothing to do with this thread!
Let's compare numbers 51,930,000 CFMEU -30,000 odd Victorian and Tassie builders.
Gina................... .22,000,000,000
That's a ratio of 407:1 ROFL:D:D
So your tellng me if I have an order of $40,700 and I pay $100 off, you'll say "that's almost close enough, don't worry about the rest.":D:D

Two out of three kids offside, in court against you is a pretty good start.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/mining-billionaire-gina-rinehart-tells-judge-that-daughter-bianca-leaked-company-secrets/story-fni0cx12-1226964331318

Control of ten and fairfax has numerous articles.
Why does Gina Rinehart want control of Fairfax? (http://theconversation.com/why-does-gina-rinehart-want-control-of-fairfax-7774)

Spitting the dummy about above court action being made public and trying to find out reporters sources.
Extract from Colleen Ryan's book Fairfax: The Rise and Fall | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/extract-from-colleen-ryans-book-fairfax-the-rise-and-fall/story-fncynjr2-1226664380330)

Read his policy suggestion, it's not about cutting, but controlling where it goes. Ensuring it's spent on the kids ,food, housing , not hitting red or black and sinking a dozen. It's not about race, as there is an equal ratio of neglectful/ addicts regardless of background.

[nugge t]

Jeez it is hard work. Linking a third parties view of why they think Gina wants to buy a newspaper doesn't make it fact. It is just another persons opinion and whilst it may support your bias, that doesn't make it factual. Get something real or retract.

I understand how sensitive you are about unions but the level of fines is very relevant. As I have already explained it is an indication of the degree of seriousness of the offence. I am not sure if you can work it out from there but have a try.

I am not sure if you are aware of the difference between companies and unions. One generates revenue by collecting tax free membership fees and supplements this with payments from its members employers for services not provided as illustrated by the dealings of the AWU. Sometimes they save the cost of the fake invoices and just intimidate their members employers into paying large amounts of money for "industrial peace" as currently being explained to the Royal Commission by numerous witness's. Of course a lot of this money is held in secret accounts so it is hard to determine the true value of the CFMEU's assets above the $53,190,000 they actually declared to the court.

The other risks their own and sometimes other peoples money and when/if they make are successful and employ people and hopefully make a profit. They pay tax according to the laws of the land and still they have to put up with the garbage some throw at them as a result of what I can only assume to be narrow sighted jealousy.


Your ratio as irrelevant as one is supposed to make a profit and the rest was obviously typed during the scrotum seizure.

Dragging peoples family issues into the debate is an extremely low act even for you, but of course you have form in this regard having made comments and assumptions about my son in the past. It is even more crass when one of the people is deceased.

[isuzurover]

I give up. Impossible to have a proper discussion until the blinkers come off. Gina is on record saying her biggest dream is to have a working mine as a legacy to her father. Any business owner should be smart enough to know you don't buy a newspaper these days if you are looking to turn a profit.

[nugge t]

Talking of blinkers. Any one should be smart enough to realise that an 8billion dollar investment, 3/4 of which is apparently being bought locally, employing 3,800 in the construction and 2,000 in the on going mining phase, would have economic benefits, unless the Gina hate is all embracing.

It would seem that Gina's greatest crime was being born into money. I don't remember the same level of vitrol being levelled at Kerry Stokes when he diversified from media into mining with his purchase of Caterpilla. But then he isn't a woman either.

I certainly don't agree with everthing she does but I give her big points for having a dream, putting everything on the line to make it happen and having the balls to follow it through. If a few more keyboard knockers had her balls maybe the country would be in much better shape.

[AndyG]

Just wait, someone will blame her for giving the loan business to the big 4 banks and not their local credit coop:p

[frantic]

Jeez it is hard work. Linking a third parties view of why they think Gina wants to buy a newspaper doesn't make it fact. It is just another persons opinion and whilst it may support your bias, that doesn't make it factual. Get something real or retract.actually put up a analyst that says the opposite , not your personal opinion;)

I understand how sensitive you are about unions but the level of fines is very relevant. As I have already explained it is an indication of the degree of seriousness of the offence. I am not sure if you can work it out from there but have a try.yup as I posted a truck company gets a fine of 1.3million for negligence causing 3 deaths and a union gets a similar fine for a strike, they claim is over safety.

I am not sure if you are aware of the difference between companies and unions. One generates revenue by collecting tax free membership fees and supplements this with payments from its members employers for services not provided as illustrated by the dealings of the AWU. Sometimes they save the cost of the fake invoices and just intimidate their members employers into paying large amounts of money for "industrial peace" as currently being explained to the Royal Commission by numerous witness's. Of course a lot of this money is held in secret accounts so it is hard to determine the true value of the CFMEU's assets above the $53,190,000 they actually declared to the court. link? no hmm

The other risks their own and sometimes other peoples money and when/if they make are successful and employ people and hopefully make a profit. They pay tax according to the laws of the land and still they have to put up with the garbage some throw at them as a result of what I can only assume to be narrow sighted jealousy.


Your ratio as irrelevant as one is supposed to make a profit and the rest was obviously typed during the scrotum seizure. rofl your the one that said 53milion was almost as much as 22 billion:D:D:D

Dragging peoples family issues into the debate is an extremely low act even for you, but of course you have form in this regard having made comments and assumptions about my son in the past. It is even more crass when one of the people is deceased. who?


You asked for evidence that she would have ignored editorial independence , but not happy with the topic. That being her accusing one daughter of leaking info outside the company, to a terrible evil person, her son.:eek: just ignore the fact the court case is over them getting access to 26% of the company! which she changed the date from 2011 to 2068 the day before it was due to happen.;)
Post any link to a thread with comments about your son? The only time I can recall was you bagging out FIFO miners from "the wrong side of the tracks" as overpaid and poorly educated,earning way more than your son with a trade.

[V8Ian]

Talking of blinkers. Any one should be smart enough to realise that an 8billion dollar investment, 3/4 of which is apparently being bought locally, employing 3,800 in the construction and 2,000 in the on going mining phase, would have economic benefits, unless the Gina hate is all embracing.

It would seem that Gina's greatest crime was being born into money. I don't remember the same level of vitrol being levelled at Kerry Stokes when he diversified from media into mining with his purchase of Caterpilla. But then he isn't a woman either.

I certainly don't agree with everthing she does but I give her big points for having a dream, putting everything on the line to make it happen and having the balls to follow it through. If a few more keyboard knockers had her balls maybe the country would be in much better shape.

I very much doubt that if the project goes belly up, Gina will be living in a Housing Commission unit and driving a clapped out Magna. Most other people in this country would if their business failed.

[nugge t]

I very much doubt that if the project goes belly up, Gina will be living in a Housing Commission unit and driving a clapped out Magna. Most other people in this country would if their business failed.
Quite true but if you read the original article you would realise that it hasn't always been plain sailing. and there was a time when she might have lost everything.

This moment has been two decades coming. Hancock Prospecting pegged the Roy Hill lease in December 1992, barely six months after the death of founder Lang Hancock left his daughter, Rinehart, in charge of the company. Today, Rinehart is Australia’s richest person, with a fortune estimated at more than $20bn, thanks largely to the massive royalties that flow from the Hope Downs project. At the time of her father’s death, however, Hancock Prospecting was struggling financially. Eventually, Rinehart would have to relinquish half of the Roy Hill tenements (they were picked up by Fortescue) to continue to fund exploration and drilling on the deposit. Hope Downs, where Ginia spent a year performing a variety of sometimes unglamorous roles, was also a significant, though rewarding and ultimately enriching, distraction.

It is easy to look at current and conveniently forget or discount the struggle and risk people often put into such a venture.

[DiscoMick]

Gina does have a share in Fairfax, has made statements about how she would change Fairfax, and there have been numerous reports she wants to increase that share, as is her right, although personally I wouldn't buy into print media.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[ramblingboy42]

funny.....billionaires do!

[nugge t]

You asked for evidence that she would have ignored editorial independence , but not happy with the topic. That being her accusing one daughter of leaking info outside the company, to a terrible evil person, her son.:eek: just ignore the fact the court case is over them getting access to 26% of the company! which she changed the date from 2011 to 2068 the day before it was due to happen.;)
Post any link to a thread with comments about your son? The only time I can recall was you bagging out FIFO miners from "the wrong side of the tracks" as overpaid and poorly educated,earning way more than your son with a trade.

Your comments about my son had nothing to do with pay rates and I would like you show where I had ever said that FIFO workers were “from the wrong side of the tracks”. Please link or retreact.

My son in fact did a stint of FIFO but found it wasn’t for him.

“a union gets a similar fine for a strike, they claim is over safety.”

Now that is gold and a very real indication of your complete blind faith.

They were found to be in contempt of court not once, not twice, not even three times but SIX times, by the Victorian Supreme Court although I doubt that even that ruling would even be enough proof for you.

Not ingnoring any facts but just think your dragging family issues into a discussion is a very very low act. Not content with Gina, you also referred to Steve Jobs. Perhaps you might like to take a swing at Kerry Stokes as well or didn't you know about that one?

How you can realistically try to link your claim of her inter****** with editorial independence of a newspaper to the rift in her family is well beyond me and I suspect lies somewhere in the outer reaches that only the extreme Gina haters would ever visit.

Your comments have nothing to do with the topic but are a real reflection of your values and the depth of the Gina hate so evident.

I hope you never have the pain of being estrnaged from one of your children. If ever you do, you might remember your remarks here although I doubt you would be capable of feel remorse being a repeat offender.

You are not the sort of person I wish to debate with.

[ramblingboy42]

Frantic , your selective moral values don't seem to add up to anything comprehensible.

I can't see where you are trying to go in your debate other than to agitate as you have done in so many other threads.

If this was political debate I'd say you are filibustering , but I can't think of the correct word to use here.

[nugge t]

Gina does have a share in Fairfax, has made statements about how she would change Fairfax, and there have been numerous reports she wants to increase that share, as is her right, although personally I wouldn't buy into print media.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

Yes she does and from what I understand she has tried to increase that stake and been blocked. Not the first time that has happened to someone wanting to take over a company by any stretch and won't be the last.

As you say, it is her right. Personally I wish she would take over the ABC... :D:D.. now that IS trolling..:D

I dont know why she would want to either, but I don't think any one else does either. Maybe she has a vision for where these organisation will be after print??? It certainly isnt where I woudld be putting my money though.

[nugge t]

funny.....billionaires do!

was this is response to my post

"It is easy to look at current and conveniently forget or discount the struggle and risk people often put into such a venture. "

or something else. Cheers

[ramblingboy42]

No, it was in response to disco mick, same post you just responded.

[nugge t]

Cheers.

It is funny this fascination with media ownership. Kerry Stokes was the same. He came from a real estate back ground but became driven to own a national broadcaster. Not sure what the attraction is and it just seems like hard work.

[frantic]

Your comments about my son had nothing to do with pay rates and I would like you show where I had ever said that FIFO workers were “from the wrong side of the tracks”. Please link or retreact. you know as well. As me the soapbox is gone

My son in fact did a stint of FIFO but found it wasn’t for him.

“a union gets a similar fine for a strike, they claim is over safety.”

Now that is gold and a very real indication of your complete blind faith.

They were found to be in contempt of court not once, not twice, not even three times but SIX times, by the Victorian Supreme Court although I doubt that even that ruling would even be enough proof for you.
I know they have been found guilty, but union only does what members ask, sometimes their right, others their wrong but you honestly believe a strike is the same level of offence as negligence causing death?

Not ingnoring any facts but just think your dragging family issues into a discussion is a very very low act. Not content with Gina, you also referred to Steve Jobs. Perhaps you might like to take a swing at Kerry Stokes as well or didn't you know about that one?

How you can realistically try to link your claim of her inter****** with editorial independence of a newspaper to the rift in her family is well beyond me and I suspect lies somewhere in the outer reaches that only the extreme Gina haters would ever visit.

Your comments have nothing to do with the topic but are a real reflection of your values and the depth of the Gina hate so evident.

I hope you never have the pain of being estrnaged from one of your children. If ever you do, you might remember your remarks here although I doubt you would be capable of feel remorse being a repeat offender.

You are not the sort of person I wish to debate with.
No hate but disagree with her attitude towards fellow Australians.
As to the newspaper, go do a search on it, there are dozens of articles from most major papers that that put up a similar idea, so don't shoot the messenger.
Found a good quote, Malcolm turnbull. 2012:http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-18/gina-rinehart-stake-in-fairfax-media-up-to-187pc/4077286
Opposition Communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull says he understands if the board is reluctant to give her a seat, as the Fairfax business is based on the perception that it is editorially independent.

"If Fairfax for example was seen to be a mouthpiece of Gina Rinehart and a spokesvehicle for the mining industry, that would undermine its business model dramatically," he said.

As to family, I can't see me getting in charge of a family trust and cutting them out of over $5 billion left to them by my parents, in their case by their grandfather... . But I have seen disputes within my outer relos and another friends family over $$$$. The only one who wins is the lawyers.

[V8Ian]

I'm so over yet another Nugget/Frantic carry on. :soapbox:

[bob10]

I'm so over yet another Nugget/Frantic carry on. :soapbox:


In the blue corner, weighed down by expectations ..... [ Mr Chucaro gets a mention in this] Bob. All in fun.
:angel:

FUNNY!!! The Funniest Boxing Bout Ever!!! - YouTube

[nugge t]

I'm so over yet another Nugget/Frantic carry on. :soapbox:



Of course no one was forcing you to follow it :D but I can assure you that there will not be another.