what additives make bottled water freeze from inside first?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I regularly place bottled water in the freezer so I can have ice cold water over a few hours. Just like you'd expect the water usually freezes from the outside towards the centre.

One common brand I've recently purchased seems to freeze throughout the bottle simultaneously. The "ice" starts like as a fine soft matrix not like hard crystals. Very weird.

Any ideas?

[isuzurover]

What is the shape of the bottle like compared to the other?

[bee utey]

Impure water freezes in needle like crystals driving out the salts etc into the remaining fluid, so no solid external layer forms. I'd be looking on the stated ingredients list...

Something I found about ice formation on the netz:

Ice formation | National Snow and Ice Data Center (http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/formation.html)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

What is the shape of the bottle like compared to the other?
Very much like this. Had very similar bottles but none froze like this brand.

It freezes much quicker than you'd expect brine or pure water to freeze.

[superquag]

Bottled water ? why not re-fill with Medically-endorsed chlorinated/flouridated/zapidated tap water ? :angel:

[isuzurover]

Very much like this. Had very similar bottles but none froze like this brand.

It freezes much quicker than you'd expect brine or pure water to freeze.

I think bee utey is on the right track. There is likely something in the water nucleating the ice crystal formation. Think of it as a catalyst. It may be assisted by convection currents related to bottle shape.

Incidentally, bottled water is usually far less pure than tap water as it comes under food regs. E.g. allowable arsenic levels are much higher than tap water.

[Greatsouthernland]

Not enough vodka in it?

Apparently pure vodka won't freeze at -4. But I haven't tested it.

I have forgotten about the odd UDL can placed in freezer to rapid cool, then forgotten, they don't last til morning :(

But seriously, it's an interesting observation, maybe the shape as more of the surface area is toward the centreline meaning that the cold air transfers to the central mass of the water more quickly than the outer mass. And that this energy transfer is concentrated toward one end, looks like the neck, which creates a vortex like movement in the fluid that transfers that cooling downward to the base, or sideways to the base if the bottle is lying down.

Alternatively, there is a cool air jet that is contacting the surface perhaps at the conical base which is leading to an area of greater concentration of cooling, again with the cooling energy being directed through the centre of the bottle.

Is the bottle lying down or standing up?
Is it in the same place in the freezer each time?

Vibration effect of the fridge/freezer motor may also work differently on different shape bottles. Vibration may be causing too much movement in the water particles immediately adjacent to the bottle, of course thicker plastic would have less movement hence transfer of vibration allowing the outer particles to crystallise at near the same rate as inner particles. With thinner plastic there'd be more movement near the bottle, so those particles have more energy and freeze more slowly...?

I don't know :eek:

[Greatsouthernland]

I think bee utey is on the right track. There is likely something in the water nucleating the ice crystal formation. Think of it as a catalyst. It may be assisted by convection currents related to bottle shape.

Incidentally, bottled water is usually far less pure than tap water as it comes under food regs. E.g. allowable arsenic levels are much higher than tap water.

Depends which state you live in...

I heard Melbourne had the worst tap water in Aus, one of two cities in the world that ships wouldn't take on new water at port. Probably just a rumour. Then there was the Sydney drama about 10 years or more ago - cryptosporidium and giardia outbreaks across town, pretty bad apparently.

I use a Reverse Osmosis filter, far better than some of the filters advertised these days, which are just a carbon and sediment filter inline.

On the topic, yes nucleating particles (perhaps nano-bots) sounds feasible.

[Mick_Marsh]

At a guess, the water has little impurities and the plastic of the bottle is smooth. With no nucleation sites for the crystals to form on the bottle, ice crystals will not form. There may be just enough impurities in the water to start the crystal formation in the middle of the bottle.

What I am suggesting, it's not additives, it's the bottle.

[Ferret]

It is not the container shape or the bottle surface. The water has super cooled, ie gone below freezing point but remained liquid. A small disturbance then causes it to freeze at all places almost simultaneously.

Super cooling in water is usually a sign of very pure water, ie no particulate matter in the water to initiate ice crystal formation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph8xusY3GTM

[DiscoMick]

I'm surprised. I had assumed water would freeze from the inside out. I'll have to experiment.

[zulu Delta 534]

Depends which state you live in...

I heard Melbourne had the worst tap water in Aus, one of two cities in the world that ships wouldn't take on new water at port. Probably just a rumour. Then there was the Sydney drama about 10 years or more ago - cryptosporidium and giardia outbreaks across town, pretty bad apparently.

I use a Reverse Osmosis filter, far better than some of the filters advertised these days, which are just a carbon and sediment filter inline.

On the topic, yes nucleating particles (perhaps nano-bots) sounds feasible.

Actually, in days gone by the two cities in the world that ships would not take on water from, were;....Aden and Adelaide.
Also if you bought a 2nd hand South Australian car, chances were that the welsh plugs had been changed to copper ones because the salt in the water ate the steel ones out so quickly.
As for the "super cooled" water trick on the video, over the years I have had a number of soft drink cans (how pure can you get?) that have opened and found to be in a gelatinous state just prior to freezing over (and exploding the can.)
Regards
Glen

[Homestar]

Depends which state you live in...

I heard Melbourne had the worst tap water in Aus, one of two cities in the world that ships wouldn't take on new water at port. Probably just a rumour. Then there was the Sydney drama about 10 years or more ago - cryptosporidium and giardia outbreaks across town, pretty bad apparently.

I use a Reverse Osmosis filter, far better than some of the filters advertised these days, which are just a carbon and sediment filter inline.

On the topic, yes nucleating particles (perhaps nano-bots) sounds feasible.

I'm guessing you heard that from the crowd that sold you the filter. Absolute garbage by the way. Even the worst tap water in Australia - Adelaide is amongst the best in the world. The filter companies have to scare you into buying their stuff because there's no need for them here.

Oh, and most ships have their own desal plants so they don't need to fill up anywhere...

Here's a chemical analysis of Melbournes water - http://www.melbournewater.com.au/waterdata/drinkingwaterqualitydata/Documents/Typical_water_quality_analysis_2013.pdf

[Aaron IIA]

I use a Reverse Osmosis filter, far better than some of the filters advertised these days, which are just a carbon and sediment filter inline.
Do you add some salts back after passing the water through the reverse osmosis unit?
Aaron

[vnx205]

Then there was the Sydney drama about 10 years or more ago - cryptosporidium and giardia outbreaks across town, pretty bad apparently.


That incident was more an indication of how good the testing was rather than how bad the water was.

Other cities had similar levels of bacteria, but weren't using tests sensitive enough to detect them.

There was a lot of publicity, but no evidence of health problems.

The lack of cases of cryptosporidiosis, giardiasis or any other health problem which might be attributed to tainted water led to suggestions the microbes were either not an infectious type, or not as prevalent as measured. An inquiry after the event revealed the publicity as an exaggeration of fact, with Australian Water Technologies, part of Sydney Water, severely overestimating levels of cryptosporidium and giardia present in the water, with the recorded levels exposed as not harmful to human health.
1998 Sydney water crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Sydney_water_crisis)

[ramblingboy42]

I worked casually in a soft drink/water bottling plant a few years ago.

The bottled water is injected with ozone before the lid goes on.

In the factory , you are warned not to drink the 'fresh' bottled water and in the canteen the water is clearly time/date labeled.

I'm just wondering if this shot of ozone has anything to do with it's freezing qualities.

[isuzurover]

Depends which state you live...

Bottled water needs to comply with food regs not water regs - in all states. Food regs are less stringent. Others have proven you wrong on melbourne water.

[Greatsouthernland]

Bottled water needs to comply with food regs not water regs - in all states. Food regs are less stringent. Others have proven you wrong on melbourne water.

My comment on Melbourne over Adelaide was a dig :( an old SA and Vic relationship, obviously the Murray flows from Qld through Vic to SA picking up all the crap along the way. Yes I knew Adelaide was one of the two places that ships wouldn't fill up...geez you Victorians are way too sensitive ;) It was A JOKE :eek:

I bought the RO filter when I was living in Kalgoorlie, the outer case is the only original piece as I've replaced the membrane and other filters a few times. It's original use was for home brew and hydroponics, it's good to start both with pure water IMHO. As for adding salts, it's not the only water I drink, so no, am aware of the salt depletion theory from the body if that is ALL you drink, but we get salts from food too, as we get fluoride from toothpaste, calcium from nuts, E-coil from... Well there are some things in the water that I'm glad the RO filter removes :D .

[Greatsouthernland]

Bottled water needs to comply with food regs not water regs - in all states. Food regs are less stringent. Others have proven you wrong on melbourne water.

My comment on 'depends where you live' was based on your comment that introduced the "tap water" subject. Below to jog your memory...


I think bee utey is on the right track. There is likely something in the water nucleating the ice crystal formation. Think of it as a catalyst. It may be assisted by convection currents related to bottle shape.

Incidentally, bottled water is usually far less pure than tap water as it comes under food regs. E.g. allowable arsenic levels are much higher than tap water.

And see my reply on the Melbourne water comment, clearly the sense of humour stops at the border :p

[Greatsouthernland]

That incident was more an indication of how good the testing was rather than how bad the water was.

Other cities had similar levels of bacteria, but weren't using tests sensitive enough to detect them.

There was a lot of publicity, but no evidence of health problems.

The lack of cases of cryptosporidiosis, giardiasis or any other health problem which might be attributed to tainted water led to suggestions the microbes were either not an infectious type, or not as prevalent as measured. An inquiry after the event revealed the publicity as an exaggeration of fact, with Australian Water Technologies, part of Sydney Water, severely overestimating levels of cryptosporidium and giardia present in the water, with the recorded levels exposed as not harmful to human health.
1998 Sydney water crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Sydney_water_crisis)

Acknowledged there seems to have been no cases. It certainly was hyped up a lot on local radio in WA at the time...but as with most news, you don't get a follow up with the station saying that it was a storm in a tea cup.

[Greatsouthernland]

http://youtu.be/7o8moFSHrAQ

And this..

How to Make a Self Freezing Coca-Cola (Or Any Instant-Soda Slurpee) (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Self-Freezing-Coca-Cola-Or-Any-Inst/)

After more thought, the pressure in the bottle from something like the ozone someone else mentioned, could change the temperature at which the water freezes, so it could be below 0 degrees Celsius and still a liquid as the boiling and freezing points are standard at 1 Atmosphere of pressure. Not sure how many degrees either side these points move for the pressure inside these bottles, yet.

Edit: Sorry Ferret, watched yours after I'd posted this, they're similar...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not enough vodka in it?

Apparently pure vodka won't freeze at -4. But I haven't tested it.

....I can assure that vodka won't freeze at regular domestic fridge/freeze temps. I always have a bottle of ABSOLUT in the freezer! :D

However at Kelvin Zero everything is frozen even sub-atomic particles.


Depends which state you live in...

I heard Melbourne had the worst tap water in Aus, one of two cities in the world that ships wouldn't take on new water at port. Probably just a rumour. Then there was the Sydney drama about 10 years or more ago - cryptosporidium and giardia outbreaks across town, pretty bad apparently.

I use a Reverse Osmosis filter, far better than some of the filters advertised these days, which are just a carbon and sediment filter inline.

On the topic, yes nucleating particles (perhaps nano-bots) sounds feasible.It was an overreaction and public hysteria. I was working in a children's emergency at the time and there wasn't any increase in diseases associated with water-born pathogens.

The reality is that Sydney Water had never tested for the specific pathogens at that sensitivity before and when they commenced testing for them they found them. However it was localised colonisation and not system wide. More important is the fact that most other public water utilities Worldwide had never tested for them either. Most of those who did start testing also found colonies but like Sydney, did not experience any epidemics associated with the pathogens.

Its likely it is a normal situation in public water systems.


I'm surprised. I had assumed water would freeze from the inside out. I'll have to experiment.No water will retain heat, so it is the surface closest to the low environmental temp that will freeze first. i.e. the outside of the bottle or the outsides of the ice cube tray.

[DiscoMick]

I understood crypto was present in all water sources, even the most isolated rivers.

[Ferret]

After more thought, the pressure in the bottle from something like the ozone someone else mentioned, could change the temperature at which the water freezes, so it could be below 0 degrees Celsius and still a liquid as the boiling and freezing points are standard at 1 Atmosphere of pressure. Not sure how many degrees either side these points move for the pressure inside these bottles...

All dissolved contaminates contribute to either elevating or depressing the freezing point of H2O, pressure not so much unless it is very high pressure. This is completely unrelated to the super cooling phenomena demonstrated in those videos.

It is also possible to super heat water beyond its boiling point and not experience boiling as some people have found to their detriment when using microwave ovens to heat a cup water for tea / coffee. Again this is unrelated to using additives such as anti boil or anti freeze which change the boiling and freezing point of water as per treatment in the car cooling systems etc.

Superheating of water (Mythbusters) - YouTube

[Redback]

My comment on Melbourne over Adelaide was a dig :( an old SA and Vic relationship, obviously the Murray flows from Qld through Vic to SA picking up all the crap along the way. Yes I knew Adelaide was one of the two places that ships wouldn't fill up...geez you Victorians are way too sensitive ;) It was A JOKE :eek:

I bought the RO filter when I was living in Kalgoorlie, the outer case is the only original piece as I've replaced the membrane and other filters a few times. It's original use was for home brew and hydroponics, it's good to start both with pure water IMHO. As for adding salts, it's not the only water I drink, so no, am aware of the salt depletion theory from the body if that is ALL you drink, but we get salts from food too, as we get fluoride from toothpaste, calcium from nuts, E-coil from... Well there are some things in the water that I'm glad the RO filter removes :D .

The Murray doesn't actualy flow through Victoria, but past it and the Murray starts in NSW and flows through NSW to SA:p

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The Murray doesn't actualy flow through Victoria, but past it and the Murray starts in NSW and flows through NSW to SA:pAbsolutely correct. The border is the Victorian bank of the Murray.

Didn't it cause a kerfuffle when a Victorian restaurant in Wahgunyah to build a deck off the side of the restaurant, the local council approved, but Corowa Council intervened blocking the development because the Murray at that point is in Corowa Shire NSW. :D

[Greatsouthernland]

The Murray doesn't actualy flow through Victoria, but past it and the Murray starts in NSW and flows through NSW to SA:p

OK smarty pants :D

Technically (IN PART) - 'The Murray River makes up much of the border between the Australian states of Victoria and New South Wales. Where it does, the border is the top of the bank of the southern side of the river (i.e., none of the river itself is actually in Victoria).[4] This boundary definition can be ambiguous, since the river changes course, and some of the river banks have been modified.'

EXCEPT - 'West of the line of longitude 141°E, the river continues as the border between Victoria and South Australia for 3.6 km (2.2 mi), where this is the only stretch where a STATE BORDER runs down the MIDDLE of the river. This was due to a miscalculation during the 1840s, when the border was originally surveyed. Past this point, the Murray River is entirely within the state of South Australia.'

So it seems that SOME does flow through VIC after all :p

Edit: Cross-border coordination and the Basin Plan

The River Murray runs across THREE states, making it tricky to manage. Effective management requires cooperation between South Australia, VICTORIA and New South Wales.

The Murray-Darling Basin Plan. The Basin Plan: River Murray*-*Department of Environment, Water and Natural Resources (DEWNR) (http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/managing-natural-resources/river-murray)

Edit: not even a thank you from all those who were quick to shoot me down :( must be the Melbourne water :p

And see my reply on the Melbourne water comment, CLEARLY the sense of humour stops at the border :p Geez I did add that I 'had heard' and 'probably just a rumour'...talk about shooting the messenger, bloody xenophobes forgetting we live in one country, now where's my dummy? I spat it here somewhere...:p looks like there are a few around actually...:whistling:

[Greatsouthernland]

Most of NorthWestern Victoria drains into the Murray...:o

The Murray-Darling Basin is defined by the catchment areas of the Murray and Darling Rivers AND their many tributaries.

The Basin is located in the south-east of Australia and covers an area of 1.05 million square kilometres or 14% of Australia.

It extends into four states and the Australian Capital Territory. It covers three quarters of New South Wales, two-thirds OF Victoria, 15% of Queensland, 8% of South Australia and the entire Australian Capital Territory.

[vnx205]

The Murray doesn't actualy flow through Victoria, but past it and the Murray starts in NSW and flows through NSW to SA:p

- - and if you fish from the Victorian bank of the Murray, you need a NSW fishing licence.

[isuzurover]

- - and if you fish from the Victorian bank of the Murray, you need a NSW fishing licence.

Presumably not for the 3.6 km section mentioned above???

[Redback]

OK smarty pants :D

Technically - 'The Murray River makes up much of the border between the Australian states of Victoria and New South Wales. Where it does, the border is the top of the bank of the southern side of the river (i.e., none of the river itself is actually in Victoria).[4] This boundary definition can be ambiguous, since the river changes course, and some of the river banks have been modified.'

Well done! But this chestnut - 'West of the line of longitude 141°E, the river continues as the border between Victoria and South Australia for 3.6 km (2.2 mi), where this is the only stretch where a STATE BORDER runs down the MIDDLE of the river. This was due to a miscalculation during the 1840s, when the border was originally surveyed. Past this point, the Murray River is entirely within the state of South Australia.'

So it seems that SOME does flow through VIC after all :p

Didn't they fix that misstake, I've been to the old corner of NSW/VIC and SA, I thought I read that when they altered the mistake the river became the border again and the river then continued from NSW straight into SA, or was it the other way around??

[Greatsouthernland]

...and the Murray starts in NSW and flows through NSW to SA:p

Sort of...

The Murray River is in southern NSW and forms the NSW-Victorian border for 1,880 kilometres. It is bordered by the Murrumbidgee catchment to the north and the Benanee and Lower Darling catchments in the west. The Murray River BEGINS in the Southern Alps of NSW AND Victoria, and flows in a westerly direction for over 2,500 kilometres to its outlet near Goolwa on the South Australian coast.

Murray Riverina catchment - NSW Office of Water (http://www.water.nsw.gov.au/Water-management/Basins-and-catchments/Murray-Riverina-catchment/default.aspx)

:p anything else? :angel:

:banana:

[Greatsouthernland]

Didn't they fix that misstake, I've been to the old corner of NSW/VIC and SA, I thought I read that when they altered the mistake the river became the border again and the river then continued from NSW straight into SA, or was it the other way around??

C'mon buddy, pal, neighbour, Victorian, part Murray River owner - clutching at straws there :D .... By all means back it up and you can climb back on that soap box :p

Just JOKING again. But I win...:D for now until you dig up any border changes that give SA back that massive stretch of river :o

[Redback]

C'mon buddy, clutching at straws there :D .... By all means back it up and you can climb back on that soap box :p

Just JOKING again. But I win...:D for now until you dig up any border changes that give SA back that massive stretch of river :o

Head of the Murray
Cowombat Flat
Pilot Creek Fire Trail, Pilot Wilderness NSW 2627

That border thing has got me intrigued now, might see what eventuated.‎

Baz:D

[Redback]

Found it, you are correct it is still in Vic hands to the day.

I found this bit very interesting and the bold very funny;

But just as it seemed the real story seemed to have been lost in the metaphorical sands of time, Melbourne barrister Gary Moore has ridden out of the desert with a new and plausible theory.
Following detailed examination of a raft of public lands records, Mr Moore believes White has been unfairly blamed for the border blunder.
He has found evidence that the real culprits are a humble fencing contractor and a plague of rabbits 30 years after White's epic trek.
"Some 30 years afterwards, and as part of the attempt to prevent rabbits from moving, the Victorian and South Australian governments had what they thought was the borderline fenced," said Mr Moore, who completed the research for his PhD.
"Unfortunately the gentlemen who did most of the fencing, fenced the wrong line.
"So the border we see is in fact the fence line that fences not the border but the outer limits of the Mallee for subdivision."
Whatever the cause of the discrepancy, the disputed border is responsible for some strange quirks.
In 1901 one settler in the disputed territory voted as a Victorian in a commonwealth referendum; the following day he voted in the same referendum as a South Australian.
Mr Thomson and Mr Tulloch have gone into bat for their profession.
In a year which will see commemorative re-enactments of the journeys of explorers Burke and Wills and Major Mitchell, they would like to see the pioneering work of Edward White and other early surveyors also acknowledged.
Mr Moore believes Edward White's reputation must also be restored. He has found evidence that White was an exceptional bushman and quotes this example.
"They were in waterless country," he said.
"From his surveying he noticed a depression between two sand dunes and he formed the view that that could well be a hidden source of water, so one evening he rode back through the night, track less wasteland and by moonlight dug a hole and found water and was able to bring his party, which included bullocks, back to where he got water and they were saved".
As for the disputed border territory between Victoria and South Australia, it will remain in Victorian hands.
Like White's survey pegs, it seems that time has erased the real answers.

[Greatsouthernland]

Good old surveyors :D

Did I mention I was a Surveyor? ... Must have forgotten to add that :)

Onya Bazza!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Baz

There is a serious flaw in your post! :o

The Melbourne barrister was actually Dr Garry Moore. :D

Diana :angel:

[Epic pooh]

Ditto to the bottle of Absolute in the freezer Diana. If you get the freezer temp down low enough you can make it deliciously syrupy ! I have noticed that lesser Vodka brands do start to crystallize at temperatures where Absolute is syrupy and delicious ... :D ... I'm told this is to do with alcohol content and purity !

I asked my wife why water would freeze from the inside out (she is an Industrial Chemist) ... she told me it was too complicated for my pea brain ... when pressed she said "a number of factors" ... :(

[d2dave]

Very much like this. Had very similar bottles but none froze like this brand.

It freezes much quicker than you'd expect brine or pure water to freeze.

We sell this brand in our shop. Ours are labelled Frantelle. Is yours the same brand.

[d2dave]

- - and if you fish from the Victorian bank of the Murray, you need a NSW fishing licence.


What about when it is in flood. The waters edge is then in Vic.

[Greatsouthernland]

What about when it is in flood. The waters edge is then in Vic.

Or has the state of NSW temporarily acquired Vic land, as it's river bed? Interesting possibilities.....