So who still uses real topographic maps anymore?

[Thommo]

Now my knowledgeable friends, I know just like my previous rants about all things ancient (like me) this will be another I am getting old and need to get with the times type post but I am sure I will get a sympathetic ear (I hope).
I needed a normal everyday 1:50,000 topographic map of a particular local area for preparation of a training weekend..
Now I know I can get them in the city and a couple of outdoors stores close to the city but I am in the outer Southern Suburbs of Adelaide and decide I will give some of the local big name outdoors stores a try. (bad mistake).
The big name new Anaconda store:
I ask "Hi do you have any 1:50,000 topo maps for SA".
They say "We only stock what is over there" pointing to a pile of tourist type map books. "We don't carry individual maps". I point out that they sell the top end Silva prismatic compasses yet do not sell topo maps?
O'well over to the BCF store:
I ask "Hi do you have any 1:50,000 topo maps for SA".
The young lady clearly rattles of a rehearsed line for products she has no idea about "I am sure if we do not have that particular brand we will have something similar". I am now in fits of laughter to which a somewhat elder store person tries to assist me and then tries to sell me all manner of electronic gizmos.
Yes I eventually found the map I needed at Aussie Disposal's (thanks that saved me a trip to town, either Snowies - Map Shop or Scout Shop would have had what I required). But my absolute amazement that the big name "we have all your outdoor needs" type places do not even sell what I consider the most basic of all outdoors essentials: A local topographic map!
Yet alone we have people who work in these stores who do not even know what a topographic map is!
Now of course the big name have it all stores are driven by sales and will not stock what obviously doesn't sell in volume and I know I just answered by own question but thought I would throw it open for a sympathetic ear here as I know (hope) many of my outdoor enthusiasts here will share my amusement.

[clive22]

Yep there hopeless for that, try a specialist shop there is a few left

[130man]

HI Thommo, yes, I still use paper topo maps. Despite owning various GPS items, I find the overview that topo maps give is very helpful. I have also discovered a few errors in the electronic versions and some lack of comparable detail. Things don't change all that rapidly in many parts of Australia so the topos don't go out of date as quickly as you might expect. On top of that, I have a comprehensive collection for my local area and I intend to get maximum value out of the investment. Cheers, 130man.

[bee utey]

I bought nearly all of my topo map sheets in the 80s when I was rally driving. I haven't bothered replacing too many as the smaller tracks remain the same. I have however purchased a couple of CFS map books as they cover wide areas in one handy item. They are of relatively recent origin.

Emergency Service and CFS map books *-*Department of Environment, Water and Natural Resources (DEWNR) (http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/Science/mapland/maps/emergency-and-cfs)

[rick130]

I love Topo maps, have an old Globite school case full of them ! :D

[rocket scientist]

I still train people to navigate using map & compass.
In reality a lot of the time we use a GPS but even then they are not always accurate, and there is nothing like a good ol map to work off.
A GPS can not be guaranteed, and as far as hiking is concerned, I think anyone who wanders off into the bush with only a GPS is a fool. Technology has a habit of failing when you really need it!

I have the memory-map 1:25000 maps on disk. I can print out whatever area required. Very convenient.

Pete.

[Bytemrk]

I love my GPS..... but none of my toppo maps have ever had a flat battery....... :angel:

Always travel with both...;)

[Toxic_Avenger]

I picked up some local maps from the camping store. Good for a quick view of a defined area.
That being said, I'd go a GPS if I were to be venturing further afield.

Anyone know a source for free topographic maps?
Surely they are in the public domain by now?

[Toxic_Avenger]

While probably not the point of this discussion, I did some googling and turns out a lot of the old 1:100,000 and 1:250,000 paper maps will be available free.
Difficulty is getting them open. Trying to see if I can open them using google maps now.

Digital Topographic Maps - Geoscience Australia (http://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/geographic-information/topographic-maps-data/digital-topographic-maps)

" The NATMAP Digital Maps 1:100 000 and 1:250 000 products have been withdrawn from sale. Geoscience Australia will be making all legacy paper topographic and thematic map products available as free downloads in a variety of formats, depending on age and condition of the maps and their expected use. "

[ramblingboy42]

oh well, if you know the time , in daylight , you should never get lost

I was often a forward section commander in the army and navigated all over this country with topographic maps and a compass.

I too love topographic maps and have big rolls of them left over from my service days.

I'm too proud to be seen with a gps.....but one of my old forward scouts....who I'll be with in a couple of weeks as we go for a unguided push across south australias desert land again , has just announced to me that he is installing some latest satnav system into the central command post of his LC200.

I'll just look at a topo map every couple of hours.

[Thommo]

Thanks for restoring my faith that some people out there still value the good old map and compass :)

I also teach navigation in the field, I have all the fangle dangle GPS etc but at the end of the day in the field a topo map & compass with marginal info can not be beaten.
Notably at the moment in Australia with so many maps using various datums of GDA and older variations of AGD and many of the electronic maps available defaulting to WGS it all gets very confusing (may only put you a couple of hundred metres out) but if you can put map to ground and do a resection you have got it won.

The point of getting the latest version of a hard copy topo for the area I was using was there was a mix of datum from previous versions that other staff were using (between 10 & 20 years old) and I wanted to get everyone all singing on the same hymn sheet as we were using a new training area. Also without the marginal info it is very difficult to project new waypoints when using MGRS or UTM coord system.
I know that will make sense to most of you.

Long live the topo map and a prismatic compass :cool:

[ramblingboy42]

If I can cast a shadow from the sun with a stick , I can just about go anywhere.

At night , you should have no need for navigation.

Why? Because you should have your swag rolled out and be sitting around a campfire with good friends and some red or ginger coloured fluids to stop your mouth from going dry.

[archieaja]

I couldn't do half the stuff I do without them. I cut them up into sections, laminate them and put them on a key ring. I use them over a GPS just because its quicker.


I think a big part of the problem is that people just don't know what to do with them these days.


Cant really blame the stores though: Supply and demand etc...

[d2dave]

Yep, I still use them. I don't have any of the electronic gizmos, too unreliable for my liking. Even when traveling to Melb I use a paper Melway.

When I go to Sydney I print out google maps before I leave, for the places I know I am going to.

[slug_burner]

I too like topo maps but I don't mind if they are not on paper. I just loaded the Mud Map App and the 1:25000 series of maps for Vic. I can see the benefit of paper maps but they also have limitations. It is a little like comparing the use of Morse Code and your 4G mobile. Even the Army has stopped training Signals Operators in Morse.

[303gunner]

All 3 of our local newsagents sell 1:25,000 Topo Maps that cover an area of approx. 30-40Km radius around town. I suppose that comes from living in the middle of an area that is popular for 4wding, bushwalking, mountain biking, horse riding, gold panning, hunting.........


Someone's gonna want to buy a map sooner or later.

[sheerluck]

The other positive with maps, is that no thief is going to break into your car to nick them.

[harro]

Combination of Topo maps and GPS is the best of both worlds but.......
A lot of topo maps available today have not been updated in a long time like the 70's for some so while there can be errors in the GPS's database the topography may also have altered.
The natural features may have stayed the same but quite often tracks have moved or new ones have been created over time for various reasons since the original topographic survey.
So like I said a bit of both is a good thing IMHO.

Cheers,
Paul.

[Redback]

Most garages sell topo maps, country stores, camping stores, 4X4 shops.

Baz.

[Jordan]

NSW Rural Fire Service uses paper maps.
Brigades can have their own GPS devices.

[kaz11]

I still much prefer the good old paper topo over the gps and iPad, but that may be because I was an old fashioned survey drafter.

Some of mine are held together with so much sticky tape from overuse, but there's just something about spreading your map out over the bonnet of your car and planning where you'll go adventuring next...or how to get 'unlost' ;) :angel:


Karen

[zulu Delta 534]

A GPS is the way to go provided you are going to follow well defined tracks and the actual topography is irrelevant to your needs, but a good old contour map (especially a 1:63360 - now that is old) can show you stuff and obstacles that a GPS only dreams about.
I think the problem lies more accurately, as you said, not with where can I get a 1:50000 map, but where do I find someone who knows what one is and how to read one today, someone who understands what it means when all those squiggly lines suddenly come together just in front of where I am?
Regards
Glen

[bee utey]

To be fair a topo map can't be beaten for detail but a modern GPS with loaded topo maps is a great helper. The gps map has all the detail you need to locate yourself (including contours) on the big map so you don't need to get it out so often. And finding space to spread out a paper map can be difficult on a howling windy day, whereas the gps is relatively waterproof AND you can carry spare batteries for it. Even when there's an error in position you can read the topo map on screen and work out where you are.

Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses and you should have a good knowledge of the workings of both types of mapping.

[Dark61]

I just got a book out from the Library . It was first borrowed in 1949! It still had all the stamps and tickets In it. Its in perfectly good nick with a hard cloth cover . I bet a sat nav I buy now wont still be able to be used in 66 years time.


D

[Sly]

For what it is worth I find Topographical maps and a good compass invaluable . One day I might even get to learn how to use a sextant and that should cover all " lost " moments.

[Beckford]

I am not sure about other states, but in NSW the base data used by electronic and paper maps is the same. The exception to this is Hema who do their own fieldwork.

The attached links may be useful for those who are interested in topo maps for NSW;

Topographic maps - Land and Property Information (http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/mapping_and_imagery/maps)

NSW Topographic Maps, Buy Topographic Maps of New South Wales - Mapworld (http://www.mapworld.com.au/collections/australian-topographic-maps/products/nsw-topographical-maps)


Also remember that you cannot light a fire, keep rain off or wipe your behind with a GPS.

[Beckford]

Another link;

https://mymapshop.site-trust.net/cat/index.cgi/shopfront/view_by_category?category_id=9495

[AndrewMilne]

Also remember that you cannot light a fire, keep rain off or wipe your behind with a GPS.


Dunno about the last one, but it's probably best to take the batteries out first :o

[Wildcard8]

i cant help you with SA but Tassie has fantastic maps. We use them for investigating mini hydro sites in remote areas. All the forestry tracks and 4x4 tracks are marked on them.

https://www.tasmap.tas.gov.au/do/category/25000TOPO

The website also has a preview section which is very accurate so if need be, i zoom in and take screen captures of the relevant areas if i dont have the Topo.

http://maps.thelist.tas.gov.au/listmap/app/list/map?bbox=499000,5419000,521000,5431000&srs=EPSG:28355&layers=228,267&bmlayer=3

I have laminated up a set of 250k:1 maps and joined them on the wall (4ea maps) so i can study the whole of tassie. Helps for planning out trips and adventures. Kids can pick a point at random and we plan a weekend trip.

Paper is so much more interactive and intuitive than GPS. GPS needed to give LAT/LONG only.

Anyone going to Tassie should take advantage of their good maps and the websites i copied above.

J

[Thommo]

Most garages sell topo maps, country stores, camping stores, 4X4 shops.

Baz.

Unfortunately this is not true at least in my neck of the woods.
And some of the so called touristy & 4x4 topo maps lack marginal info and much of the information that a good topo map should have.
If only all those stores did sell real topo maps I would be happy.

[The Cone of Silence]

I do a fair bit of bushwalking with a mate and we always take paper Topo maps and a compass as well as using a handheld GPS.

I would like to Topo maps to be upgraded though as they are as old as me now and it'd be great if they would show as much detail as I remember the UK Orndnance Survey maps having. As a kid I remember them being so clear and having so much detail.

[Barefoot Dave]

x200 for paper and prismatic!
I have a fair collection of 'Geographical reprisentation of portions of the Earths surface' of the Cape rolled up and stored nicely after 20 years. No battery leakage, power source has not been superceded and can't be wrapped up in big data!
I use simple GPS apps on the phone then switch to paper to get the real picture.
Towards the end of my army career, I won many a 'discussion' about location with a box carrying jube ;)

The trouble I have found lately, is the rise of 'on-demand' printing. Many maps are no longer printed on old style presses but digitally printed (inket or laser) as stock is required. I understand the economy and resource savings of this concept, but it makes for a poorer product, prone to colour bleed and indistinct lines.

Vasco Da Gama: "Man is not lost"

[pibby]

Only heard old wives tales so don't know if actually happened. But when at sea using autopilot people have put in the coordinate of where there want to go and boat goes off in a straight line. Becomes bit of a problem if there's a headland in the way.

I'd Always take paper charts on the boat, others take a spare gps.

Same walking, paper maps.

Such a sad day when the trading post went online. But that's another story.

[Thommo]

Just to explain without this becoming a tech article and to answer some of the concerns expressed:

All Australian Maps are being slowly updated to GDA datum. As mentioned above many of us still have tried and true old maps about the place. All very good until the wiz bang gizmo GPS's came along and we need to all be singing on the same hymn sheet.

For those of you who do use all the features of a true "Topographic Map" and also integrate or back up your navigation with a GPS the following article may help explain where we are at and what datums have been used in the past.

Geodetic Datums - Geoscience Australia (http://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/positioning-navigation/geodesy/geodetic-datums)

As some one who teaches navigation both with map & compass plus GPS it is all becoming quite confusing to new students. There are a lot of "touristy" topo maps available and some (many) of the 4x4 map books do not show "Topographic" info.

I am also involved in the operation of large exercises in a very remote and large part of Australia that has not had GDA updates for available maps.
Hence always wanting to have the latest data. When it comes to organising a search party or grid search etc it is very hard to brief a large group of people on a hand held GPS but a map works every time.

As said a GPS is a great aid to navigation but batteries go flat, satelites can not be 100% relied on (although they are much better nowadays), GPS can break (I have smashed 2 x screens over the years).

Sounds like I am in good company with many like minded adventurers.

[weeds]

Cannot recall the last time I needed a topo map..........

Vehicle based.....if you are touring or driving around state forests/national parks than electronic is the way to forward. There are very few a reasons where you need to or in fact legally allowed to leave formed tracks.

Bush walking on designated tracks is also straight forward with out a paper map, you can research most walks online prior to leaving......it would be only very small percentage of walkers that venture off defined tracks and yes topo maps would be useful.


I considered topo maps for my Simpson trip but figured there are bugger all features to place you in the map and as I was travelling solo I wasn't leaving the formed tracks.

[donh54]

Another ex-infantry type :p
Still nothing like a paper map! I consider myself quite tech-savvy, I even use a Silva compass!:cool:

[weeds]

Another ex-infantry type :p
Still nothing like a paper map! I consider myself quite tech-savvy, I even use a Silva compass!:cool:

Once I had the pleasure of pointing the infantry in the right direction.......I kinda enjoyed reminding hem about it

[Saitch]

I access this on needed occasions as I'm quite often in areas where GPS won't work. There's some people on this Forum who would claim that I should have taken it on the Jimna\ Yabba day out on the weekend just gone:D

[Thommo]

Cannot recall the last time I needed a topo map..........
it would be only very small percentage of walkers that venture off defined tracks and yes topo maps would be useful.


Yes and there in lies my point, most of my ventures are off defined tracks, pack on back and I go out of my way to avoid tracks. Whilst many here may be 4x4 orientated there is actually quite allot of people heading off into the wilderness on foot (perhaps more than you may think). And if you are 4x4ing in a remote area and it all goes belly up having hard copy topo maps may be the difference between life and death (admittedly a worse case scenario and usually totally avoidable in this day and age with all the wizz bang communications available).
There could be a big difference between when the last time you used a topo map and the last time you needed a topo map. It is all relevant like everything you don't miss or need something untill you do not have it.

It is all very good that so many of us agree to agree :)

[weeds]

Yes and there in lies my point, most of my ventures are off defined tracks, pack on back and I go out of my way to avoid tracks. Whilst many here may be 4x4 orientated there is actually quite allot of people heading off into the wilderness on foot (perhaps more than you may think). And if you are 4x4ing in a remote area and it all goes belly up having hard copy topo maps may be the difference between life and death (admittedly a worse case scenario and usually totally avoidable in this day and age with all the wizz bang communications available).
There could be a big difference between when the last time you used a topo map and the last time you needed a topo map. It is all relevant like everything you don't miss or need something untill you do not have it.

It is all very good that so many of us agree to agree :)

Mate wasn't disagreeing with you, just giving my two bobs worth.......you did ask the question

I've done my fair share of nav with a map........

[benji]

We tend to use our phones nav stuff for going through Melbourne, to which is great. But when out in the bush I'll only use a paper map. I just find them so much easier. I've just been constantly disappointed at the lack of detail on navigation systems. For instance the ability to set a compass course, let alone it telling you the magnetic declination. ....

I've been teaching kids bush navigation for years, and as time goes by the harder it is to teach them because without something techi in their hands they have to trust themselves.

But the availability of specific maps is getting hard. A topo map of the great southwest walk near Portland is still the old army survey map of an inch to a mile, with no plans to redo it.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using AULRO mobile app

[BathurstTom]

I am not sure about other states, but in NSW the base data used by electronic and paper maps is the same. The exception to this is Hema who do their own fieldwork.

The attached links may be useful for those who are interested in topo maps for NSW;

Topographic maps - Land and Property Information (http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/mapping_and_imagery/maps)

NSW Topographic Maps, Buy Topographic Maps of New South Wales - Mapworld (http://www.mapworld.com.au/collections/australian-topographic-maps/products/nsw-topographical-maps)


Also remember that you cannot light a fire, keep rain off or wipe your behind with a GPS.

I know that the LPI in NSW produces its own data. At least it did to about 4 or 5 years ago. I know some of the people involved. I use to work as a surveyors assistant for what was then called the Central Mapping Authority in Bathurst. Traveled all over NSW doing mapping work. Worked on many a 1:25000 sheet (and other sheets 1:4000 - 1:50000). Wouldn't swap a topo for an Electronic GPS for the life of me. Might use one to supplement a topo maybe. But Topo is the best to my mind. Mind you, like others, I had to know how to read one. Helps if you helped produce them in the first place ;).


Tom.

[Sly]

Further to my last , first saw GPS during first gulf war build up. Tank reg had a couple gifted from the yanks. We could not see what the fuss was about, however had only experenced dessert maps the likes of maralinga/woomera. Officers returning from exchange Brit/yank units had Saudi/Iraq ops maps and the lack of detail on those dessert sheets opened our eyes to GPS nav

[Redback]

Unfortunately this is not true at least in my neck of the woods.
And some of the so called touristy & 4x4 topo maps lack marginal info and much of the information that a good topo map should have.
If only all those stores did sell real topo maps I would be happy.

I'm pretty sure we got some Rooftop topos in Adelaide last time we were there and also Port Lincoln as well.

Rooftop are fairly good maps, but we get alot of ours from State Forest and so on.

[Tombie]

For the increased challenge, I've gone as far as to go Geocaching using a Paper Topo and compass...

Now that is really taking it to the old skool level :cool:

[kaz11]

These guys are doing it old school, map and compass, across Morocco in an old Landy:
UNSEALED 4X4 ISSUE 002 (http://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/issue002/#63)

[Redback]

We plot all our trips with paper maps, then put the trip into GPS and carry those maps with us.

Relying on a GPS alone is not wise, always carry maps of where we are going and the surounding areas.

Alot of the mapping software updates, don't remove tracks when updating tracks, so sometimes you find yourself following directions that end up at some of these disused tracks, can be a pain, especially if it's late and coming on dark.

Baz.

[donh54]

Once I had the pleasure of pointing the infantry in the right direction.......I kinda enjoyed reminding hem about it

Survey Corps designed roads so that Infantry could travel 300 metres from, and parallel to them :eek:

[weeds]

Survey Corps designed roads so that Infantry could travel 300 metres from, and parallel to them :eek:

Lol.....yeah we just drove along the roads and sold them goffa's

[ramblingboy42]

Lol.....yeah we just drove along the roads and sold them goffa's

:D:D:D:D:D:D, who is "we"?

[Beckford]

I know that the LPI in NSW produces its own data. At least it did to about 4 or 5 years ago. I know some of the people involved. I use to work as a surveyors assistant for what was then called the Central Mapping Authority in Bathurst. Traveled all over NSW doing mapping work. Worked on many a 1:25000 sheet (and other sheets 1:4000 - 1:50000). Wouldn't swap a topo for an Electronic GPS for the life of me. Might use one to supplement a topo maybe. But Topo is the best to my mind. Mind you, like others, I had to know how to read one. Helps if you helped produce them in the first place ;).


Tom.

Or if you are related to the cartographer who helped produce them. ;)

When did you work there?

[weeds]

:D:D:D:D:D:D, who is "we"?

Me........in my 6x6 GMV

[BathurstTom]

Or if you are related to the cartographer who helped produce them. ;)

When did you work there?
1980 - 1986.

Tom.

[Lakey]

For those in or venturing to Qld we now have access to a new topo product called QTopo. Just released (publicly today for the first time at the Ekka), it's a web based mapping application to create a traditional looking Topographic map of an area of interest.

Essentially it will replace printed paper maps so rather than going to your local map provider, who may or may not have the sheet you want, you will be able to create your map, have an image in one of a number of formats (pdf, jpg etc) created with a link to download it. You can then either print it yourself or take it to a print shop to have printed if too large for your home printer.

Traditional map providers will be able to offer this as a service downloading and printing the map of your choice rather than keeping large stocks of maps that are likely to be twenty years or more old.

Remember however that although created on request much of the data is likely to still be quite old, though it does allow any updates to flow through directly and not wait until a paper map is reprinted.

Other good thing about it is that if you have the capabilities you can geo-reference the image to use it in you GPS apps also.

Link to a YouTube about it : http://youtu.be/7qypuJN82mY

And QTopo itself at: http://www.dnrm.qld.gov.au/mapping-data/maps/topographic-maps (http://www.dnrm.qld.gov.au/mapping-data/maps/topographic-maps)

If you are going to the show have a look at it on the huge interactive touch screen at the govt pavilion. It’s not a perfect product but I don’t think such a beast actually exists.

Cheers
Lakey

[460cixy]

I use em and we are spoilt here just have to nip over to geoscience and buy them nice and easy

[windsock]

I still use them. I create wind maps of areas using SRTM data (Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/)) and due to some of the inherent errors of this data set I use paper topographic maps to compare and correct SRTM data manually in a map editor. SRTM data is available as 10m contours whereas the usual topo maps 1:50000 series data is 20m contours. A critical difference when mapping wind flow using digital elevation models.


If anyone in Aust is interested, all NZ 1:50000 topo maps are available as geo referenced files at Topo50 Maps | Land Information New Zealand (LINZ) - Toit (http://www.linz.govt.nz/topography/topo-maps/topo50). These files are large e-copies of the paper maps. You can download geo-referenced versions or normal TIFF files.