Sad day - engine death rattle

[86mud]

Well, I have been enjoying driving my Series 3 on a daily basis since getting her registered in March this year after it had been sitting in a shed for 10 years and me spending a damn lot of time restoring her. Today, the engine developed a very unhealthy knocking sound. I was on the highway doing 90km when this happened. I immediately turn it off and looked under bonnet. I was hoping it was just a fan belt or something loose, but nothing seemed out of the ordinary. So after a while, I started it again, and the rattle/knock sound coming from inside the engine was quite loud at idle.

It seems to be coming from the distributor/valve cover side of the block. Any ideas?

Next question - what to do next? rebuild, or replacement engine? If I rebuild, is it a costly exercise for the 186?

Thanks

[rangieman]

Well, I have been enjoying driving my Series 3 on a daily basis since getting her registered in March this year after it had been sitting in a shed for 10 years and me spending a damn lot of time restoring her. Today, the engine developed a very unhealthy knocking sound. I was on the highway doing 90km when this happened. I immediately turn it off and looked under bonnet. I was hoping it was just a fan belt or something loose, but nothing seemed out of the ordinary. So after a while, I started it again, and the rattle/knock sound coming from inside the engine was quite loud at idle.

It seems to be coming from the distributor/valve cover side of the block. Any ideas?

Next question - what to do next? rebuild, or replacement engine? If I rebuild, is it a costly exercise for the 186?

Thanks

At 90 ks a standard holden motor is at its rev limit on standard landy gearing and constant speed will help distroy it .
Time to put a Landy donk back in it

[debruiser]

I have a spare one... unknown condition - it's for sale :D

OR you could buy my 109 with a 186 in it! :D

[Bundy]

Could it be the fibre cam gear breaking up (assuming it still has one) or do these just go quietly?

[MattyGM]

Without sounding obvious, has it got enough oil in it? It may have been burning or leaking oil without you noticing.

It could be a stuck or collapsed lifter (would be your best hope) they tend to make a racket though without hearing it I can't say (sounds pretty bad news). You can check by pulling off the side covers and idling it, just get a little oil about but not much. Holden 6 is probably still one of the cheapest engines to rebuild so I wouldn't panic.

If it were the fibre timing gear you would usually start to have massive timing issues, possibly bent valves and a non runner (they are actually quite robust unless you rev the hell out of them).

As mentioned above re the original 4.7:1 diffs, Holden 6's don't like high sustained revs for too long, they prefer the RRC 3.54:1 diffs to keep the revs below 3500 rpm. If you were doing 90km/h with the original diffs you were pushing the engine's limits.....

[The ho har's]

OH Dear...

Got your msg the other day, Harry is still thinking about. Though it seems now that the engine requires some repairs before the gearbox. We have a couple of spare 2.25 engines here;)

Mrs hh:angel:

[Galvanizer]

OH Dear...

Got your msg the other day, Harry is still thinking about. Though it seems now that the engine requires some repairs before the gearbox. We have a couple of spare 2.25 engines here;)

Mrs hh:angel:
My series 1 has a 3.3 litre blue engine with RRC 3.54:1 diffs. She's as happy as buggery at 90kph, but is starting to sound a little harsh at 100kph, but still refuses to over-heat. I believe the blue engines have 7 main bearings. Does anyone know if this makes them any more able to cope with high revs?

[MattyGM]

My series 1 has a 3.3 litre blue engine with RRC 3.54:1 diffs. She's as happy as buggery at 90kph, but is starting to sound a little harsh at 100kph, but still refuses to over-heat. I believe the blue engines have 7 main bearings. Does anyone know if this makes them any more able to cope with high revs?

All Holden 6's from the EH (1963 or so) onwards have seven main bearings. NO Holden straight 6 likes high revs for long periods, they were made to operate from around 1800-3500 RPM mainly around 2500 RPM mark (if you go through the exercise of gear ratios and tyre diameters most Holdens from the 60's to the 80's will do 60mph/100kmh at around that rev range). Screaming them at around 4000 RPM is a good way to kill them, particularly as the oil system to the head is a little excessive and the bottom end can starve for oil.

[Homestar]

Could it be the fibre cam gear breaking up (assuming it still has one) or do these just go quietly?

Never had one fail slowly. Usually just going one second, not going the next, but it would be worth checking. It's an easyish fix if that's what it is.

[86mud]

I have driven it quite a bit at 85 - 90kms per hour over the past few months and the engine doesn't seem to be revving excessively. Well, to my ear anyway.

Can I build the engine stronger to withstand high revving of should I just fit an overdrive?

Oh and yes, engine oil is full. I'll remove the cover plates on the weekend and inspection the lifters.

I suppose a faulty oil pump could starve the engine of oil. I see there are high volume oil pumps available.

I have found an engine reconditioner who is a Holden expert here in Brisbane. been quoted about $1500 for rebuild and that is with hardened valve seats to suit unleaded and ported and polished head, all new seals, rings and pistons, bottom end bearings, lifters etc....just have to wait a couple of weeks as he is busy.

As I don't know the history of the engine, and after seeing all the substantial amounts of rust flakes in the cooling chambers after changing the welsh plugs, I will be happier with a fresh engine.

[bee utey]

It's probably just an OEM Holden piston breaking up. That happened to my brother's HG 186 ambulance at Mt Gambier back in 1978. We nearly made it back home (400km at a steady 60 km/h) but the engine was scrap at the end.

[rangieman]

It's probably just an OEM Holden piston breaking up. That happened to my brother's HG 186 ambulance at Mt Gambier back in 1978. We nearly made it back home (400km at a steady 60 km/h) but the engine was scrap at the end.

The crappy red 202`s were notorius for taking the top off #5 from memory.
Its more likely a big end as the standard red does`nt like to rev and has been said previously the bottom end ends up starved for oil feed:cool:
Time for a honest old 2 1/4 replacement:angel:

[MattyGM]

I have driven it quite a bit at 85 - 90kms per hour over the past few months and the engine doesn't seem to be revving excessively. Well, to my ear anyway. Remember this is a 44 to 50 year old motor so who knows what condition it was in.

Can I build the engine stronger to withstand high revving of should I just fit an overdrive? Changing to RRC diffs would be the cheapest option to sort the over revving issue, I would recommend a blue 173 as your best engine to reco if you want to keep the Holden 6, a little less thirsty than the 202, a lot newer than a red motor and quite robust though still needs the diffs changed or use an overdrive as you suggest.

Oh and yes, engine oil is full. I'll remove the cover plates on the weekend and inspection the lifters. Maybe pull the plugs out and take a look see. Also take the rocker cover off, see if any valves are stuck.

I suppose a faulty oil pump could starve the engine of oil. I see there are high volume oil pumps available. The oil pumps are usually pretty good, only bother to change if you reco the motor.

I have found an engine reconditioner who is a Holden expert here in Brisbane. been quoted about $1500 for rebuild and that is with hardened valve seats to suit unleaded and ported and polished head, all new seals, rings and pistons, bottom end bearings, lifters etc....just have to wait a couple of weeks as he is busy. As I said above, source a Commodore Blue 173 would be your best bet for an engine to reco.

As I don't know the history of the engine, and after seeing all the substantial amounts of rust flakes in the cooling chambers after changing the welsh plugs, I will be happier with a fresh engine.

Sounds like a reco engine (Holden or Landy) would be the go at worst.

[86mud]

I really want to stick with the 6 cylinder - a rover one (if I can find one) if they are worth rebuilding and will withstand 90km/h

I really didn't want to spend any more money on this truck.

Maybe I just do a rebuild on the current red 186 and then don't drive on the highway until I get an overdrive???

or doing some research, rebuild the red 186 motor to be happy up to 6000rpm

[Seriestwo]

My Brothers Series 2 has a 186 and his has no issue sitting on 55-60mph at about 4000 rpm, and after talking to an old school holden mechanic he says that it shouldn't have any issues sitting on 60mph all day. Just keep the maintenance up to it.

What happens if you push the clutch in, does it still rattle?

[Galvanizer]

Might be worth getting an oil pressure gauge installed. I've got one and I watch it like a hawk. I think I'm going to fit a rev counter too.

[86mud]

Clutch is ok, changes gears all ok.

When I start it now the engine shudders a little, then the knock starts.

I remember driving my aunty's '72 Kingswood at anything over 50mph, the engine would be screaming, but never had any issues.

Maybe my motor is just tied, and due for a rebuild.

[The ho har's]

Andrew, we have a rover 6 here, condition unknown, it does hand crank over though :)

Mrs hh:angel:

[86mud]

Thanks Mrs HH....

Questions re the rover 6 - how much to rebuild? Who can rebuild it for me and will it withstand 90kmh on standard gearing?

[Homestar]

Thanks Mrs HH....

Questions re the rover 6 - how much to rebuild? Who can rebuild it for me and will it withstand 90kmh on standard gearing?

How much - depends on the donor engine and how many HP you need.
Who can build one - Cookey is your man.
Will it do 90 - Yes.

You can find reasonable running red motors around cheap if you want to stick with the Holden - I swapped one for a carton of beer the other week as I could hardly get scrap value for it.

The Rover 6 is an under rated engine. I like them, and so do most people that have owned them. You will find most nay sayers of them have never owned one, more like 'a mate had one and he said it was ****' sort of thing.

[Lionelgee]

I like them, and so do most people that have owned them. You will find most nay sayers of them have never owned one, more like 'a mate had one and he said it was ****' sort of thing.


G'day Bacicat,

What type of Zenith Stromberg CD 175 carburettor are you going to run on your 2.6? Is it a straight CD 175, or is it a CD 175 2 or another type of 175? I seem to have three different CD's on some of my 2.6 motors. These would be a CD 175, a CD 175 2, and a CD 175 2S. The "S" is a smaller superscript font just above the "2"

Sorry for the hijack 86Mud :angel:


Kind Regards
Lionel

[Homestar]

G'day Bacicat,

What type of Zenith Stromberg CD 175 carburettor are you going to run on your 2.6? Is it a straight CD 175, or is it a CD 175 2 or another type of 175? I seem to have three different CD's on some of my 2.6 motors. These would be a CD 175, a CD 175 2, and a CD 175 2S. The "S" is a smaller superscript font just above the "2"

Sorry for the hijack 86Mud :angel:


Kind Regards
Lionel

Not sure what's on it, but I was thinking of none of the above and sticking EFI on it. I have a thread running on that.:)

[pk.hoarder]

"Next question - what to do next? rebuild, or replacement engine? If I rebuild, is it a costly exercise for the 186?"
86Mud,
Costs: I didn't set out to rebuild the 186 in my IIA after its head gasket failed. So far I have spent around $500 just doing the head (without hardened seats), then no point doing that without "fixing" the radiator - turned into a recore, another $600... plus prob another $200 all told on other bits - new hoses, gaskets, clamps etc. I'm almost ready to start her up again but already I've been told to expect the bottom end to let go now the top end is good. SO - your price of $1500 all up with hardened seats isn't so bad.

Parts: I needed a new outlet manifold as mine had a split in it. Not easy to find like they used to be! Eventually got one, only $10 and the guy offered to almost give me a 149 (suit rebuild). He said not even the Holden club wanted it. When I checked out parts availability I found some of the early reds are have some parts no longer available - pistons for example. So I left the 149 there.

Originality: Here in SA there is a historic vehicle registration scheme, for a 6 cyl car takes rego down from almost $1K to around $150 per year. Catch is you have to be in a club, keep a logbook and (here's the biggie) the car has to be original. I haven't tried yet but I think a red motor might be a problem, even though the conversions were mostly done ages ago and were fairly common. So - if that's a consideration - the 2.6 Rover motor could be the go.

Cheers

[Seriestwo]

I know in QLD you can have a Holden engine on club registration as it was a period conversion.

[gromit]

Seems to depend on the 'Club' in SA.
Same here in VIC. Some clubs want the vehicle 'original' some allow period mods, some require that you're a member for at least 2 years, some need so many meeting attendances per year.

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSbmKkxu5TVUgAVJ4L5gt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBydmltOXB 0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1408186148/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fstrathalbynautocollectors.com%2ffo rmsandlinks%2fHistoricRegoFAQs.pdf/RK=0/RS=7eHHHGfJk5ukD87eW1Fl9y16wMo-

The solution is to get together with some mates & form your own club.


Colin

[marc]

I have been running my 186 since 88 it is getting that knock on start up. now has low compression so rang repco who used to get them rebuilt in the old days was told $2300 rebuild mine or $2200 swap (have to watch who does them some just bore them out to the max which I think is 30th) I had a noisy gearbox so looked for a second to rebuild so not of the road for a long time, found one, the bloke said I think it was done up for that motor. On the bench was a full recon balanced 202 has not been turned over, my mate the mechanic I took with me says oh is that for sale too, the bloke said as he was walking out the door to get the rebuild paperwork yes you can have the pair for $700(sold)the 186 is still going but I will probably get it done up as they say the 186 is the better of the two (I don't drive hard anymore but tow a 16ft glass boat now and then) how old my motor was when I started belting it around in 88 is a guess, but if my next one can get 25 yrs. up and down the expressway and to work every day ill be happy. Was going to do rings and bottom end bearings but my mates call me a fool if I don't do the rest, I think ill do the lot, a couple of grand for a fresh motor is good insurance I reckon good luck with yours hope it turns out well markus

[86mud]

So far I have been quote between $3000 and $4000 to rebuild the engine including removal and reinstall.

Just lost interest now...and thinking of selling it. I don't really feel like spending that kind of money on it.

pretty sad about the whole thing. All that work building it up and now it is just sitting in the back yard with a tarp over it.

[weeds]

bugger.......

[PhilipA]

Did you try HM GEM.
They must have done 10s of thousands of these and they used to be pretty cheap..
HM GEM » Passenger / Engine Reconditioning (http://www.hmgem.com.au/?id=20)
Be best if you could do the remove replace yourself as that would be a big chunk of the quoted amount, maybe 1000.
Regards Philip A

[86mud]

might give them a call...

I also found an engine on Gumtree so that is another option to buy a second hand motor. But then I have to trust the word of the previous owner.

[86mud]

Rang Repco - they don't do HM GEM engine anymore.

[The ho har's]

Thanks Mrs HH....

Questions re the rover 6 - how much to rebuild? Who can rebuild it for me and will it withstand 90kmh on standard gearing?

Andrew,

We know someone who will rebuild the rover 6, it if it needs it;) John is his name, he is not on this forum, he doesn't own a computer, he regularly attends the GC meetings, he lives not far from here. I am getting him to rebuild "Bessie's" motor.

Mrs hh:angel:

[Homestar]

Even though the condition would be unknown, a second hand engine would get you back on the road very cheap. I just sold a good running 173 Holden engine for a carton of beer. It would have to be worth that surely? :)

[86mud]

Thanks Carolyn for the advice.

I had a restless sleep last night and I have decided to pull the motor out myself as a start.

I have a large contract pad at home and will just erect a temporary shelter to give me some protection from the weather. I can hire an engine hoist for $65 a day so that is great.

Once out I will strip the motor and see what kind of damage there is and what needs replacing. The motor never blew smoke or chewed oil, so the rings/bore might be ok. It actually ran very smooth and quiet so hopefully will get away without replacing too much.

I'll start posting pics this weekend.

I plan to remove just the engine and leave gearbox in place, so will removed radiator and radiator support panel to give me more room.

[The ho har's]

Good luck :)

Mrs hh:angel:

[30t of coolness]

Just be aware that Gem engines used to reco all the holden 6s to max oversize so next time it wears out the engine's a throw away.

[Dinty]

Here is a link to gumtree (hopefully) it is for a Series 3 109 but add states it has a recon 186 engine
Land rover urgent sale!! | Cars, Vans & Utes | Gumtree Australia Queensland - Cairns Region | 1041559095 (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/cairns-region/cars-vans-utes/land-rover-urgent-sale-/1041559095)
cheers Dennis
ps sorry I didn't look @ where it was shock horror,,.

[Dobby]

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but I have a 186 engine in my Series three. I have often thought about replacing it with a Land Rover 4 cylinder engine. Is there much to it or do I have to remodify the engine mounts etc?
Many thanks
Vince

[Bundy]

Dobby


The Holden is such an Aussie modification and a nice running one is so good, why bother?


Paul

[Homestar]

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but I have a 186 engine in my Series three. I have often thought about replacing it with a Land Rover 4 cylinder engine. Is there much to it or do I have to remodify the engine mounts etc?
Many thanks
Vince

If they didn't modify the chassis - which they usually didn't, then a new set of original mounts and it would bolt straight in. It was more common to use new engine mounts and locate them to the original mounts on the chassis. If you post a pic of the mounts and the chassis we would know straight away.

Oh, although I have no issue with the Holden conversion, the 4 cylinder is a good engine too. The Holden has more power, but doesn't rev quite as freely as the little rover 4. :)

[mick88]

If your series 3 is a SWB then it will more than likely have a section cut out of the front cross member to allow the radiator to have been moved forward. This is an easy repair job to return it to it's original state, however you may need to get another radiator support panel if you don't want to make do with the modified one. If your vehicle is a LWB and originally had the six cylinder engine then this modification of the front cross member will not have been necessary. You will either need to get another radiator or get the existing one altered back to accept the Land Rover hoses. As for the engine mounts most of the conversion kits came with their own mounts and these were just bolt up and go. The throttle linkages will have been modified but they should be an easy fix.
Overall not a big job once you get everything organised.


Hope this helps.
Cheers for now,
Mick.

[Dobby]

Dobby


The Holden is such an Aussie modification and a nice running one is so good, why bother?


Paul


The Holden engine is running fine at the moment, but I'm just looking ahead if the time comes when the engine is on it's last legs. I'm a bit worried that it's already been reconditioned by a previous owner and that if I get any big issues with it then I'll be limited as to what I can do with it.

[Dobby]

If your series 3 is a SWB then it will more than likely have a section cut out of the front cross member to allow the radiator to have been moved forward. This is an easy repair job to return it to it's original state, however you may need to get another radiator support panel if you don't want to make do with the modified one. If your vehicle is a LWB and originally had the six cylinder engine then this modification of the front cross member will not have been necessary. You will either need to get another radiator or get the existing one altered back to accept the Land Rover hoses. As for the engine mounts most of the conversion kits came with their own mounts and these were just bolt up and go. The throttle linkages will have been modified but they should be an easy fix.
Overall not a big job once you get everything organised.



Hope this helps.
Cheers for now,
Mick.



Thanks Mick,
It's a LWB and I believe that it originally had the four cylinder engine in it. Was curious as to what was involved in returning it back to original, if I ever have to.
Regards
Vince

[86mud]

On ebay there are landrover radiators to suit the holden motors


Brand NEW 62mm Aluminum Radiator Land Rover Series 3 With 186 Holden | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-62mm-aluminum-radiator-land-Rover-series-3-with-186-Holden-/271601427739?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f3cb4e51b&_uhb=1)

[Homestar]

On ebay there are landrover radiators to suit the holden motors





Brand NEW 62mm Aluminum Radiator Land Rover Series 3 With 186 Holden | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-62mm-aluminum-radiator-land-Rover-series-3-with-186-Holden-/271601427739?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f3cb4e51b&_uhb=1)


Do they make one for a Land Rover engined version? They look like a good unit. Will have to have a closer look when I'm at my computer. :)

[PhilipA]

It's amazing that someone would pre make such a thing.

I wonder how many Series 3 with 186 there are out there?

I bet it would be in the 100s rather than the 1000s.

But Good on em!
Regards Philip A

[Aaron IIA]

Be careful with the E-Bay aluminium radiators. Some of them don't have the correct coating on the inside. They corrode out aftet a year or two.
Aaron

[Timj]

Andrew put this vehicle up for sale as some know and I bought it off him. The unknown engine problems didn't really worry me as I had a 186 sitting down at the HoHars that was intended for another project but would do just fine if needed for this one. Anyway the prognosis was that the rattle was more than a simple fix so I have been working on swapping all the bits I want onto the other engine in preparation for putting it in and one of the things I was going to swap today was the sump as the other engine has had a protection plate fitted and the drain plug was moved and the soldering has started to weep oil at a reasonable rate. So anyway I pulled the sump off the original engine and found the reason for the rattle -

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/10/1172.jpg

Not easy to see what all the bits are with the rather black oil but it appears to be a lot of the piston and other parts from around there. Haven't looked up through the bottom yet as it is hanging on the engine crane only high enough to get the sump off.

But I thought you might all be interested to see why it was rattling :). Reminds me of a friend of mine who had an engine give up while racing and he explained it as an electrical problem, a rod came out the side of the motor and knocked the starter motor off.

Cheers,

TimJ.

[bee utey]

It's probably just an OEM Holden piston breaking up. That happened to my brother's HG 186 ambulance at Mt Gambier back in 1978. We nearly made it back home (400km at a steady 60 km/h) but the engine was scrap at the end.
Told ya.:)

[109]

What the spring in the oil?

Anyone know?

I found one in my sump once when changing a gasket. I thought it was off a fuel pump that had fell in from a previous owner but have been curious to find out what it is if anyone knows.

[Timj]

Hi 109,

I have already thrown out the bits so can't check but I think it was a broken bolt rather than a spring. The only spring likely would be the one on the fuel pump but there was no fuel pump as this one had a plate and an electric pump.

Got the new engine in and running finally today, seems to run well, bit more tidying up work to do but so far so good. New engine is a bit of a funny thing to say though since the engine is probably 10 years older than the landrover it has been put into as it is a HR engine from somewhere 1966-68.

Cheers,

TimJ.

[109]

Oh ok, yeah I think it was a fuel pump spring I saw in mine, I think that's the only spring in the engine.

Glad to to see you got it going.

My daily driver 109 has a 202. It goes pretty well.

I have another donor 109 with a 2.6 rover in it. I would like to pull the 202 out and swap the rover 2.6 in.

The 2.6 starts and runs beautifully but blows a steady stream of smoke. Not sure why. Might just need a service and a good run. I bought it as a donor because it was original with all parts still in place, but haven't been able to take it for a run because it has no reg and a poor clutch. Just enough travel to get it on and off the trailer.