Shuddering Clutch; 2010 Puma at 80k?

[fxap05250]

Hi All,

Been a while since I posted anything. Still can't find that "Cape York Bush Tucker Man Map" and likely never will but that's another post.

My 2010 Landy Puma at 78000 kays recently developed a clutch shudder after a 1.5 hour country drive. Prior to that the clutch was perfect. What happens now is whenever I take off in 1st gear or more-so in reverse from a standing start - the beast will shudder (engine & gearbox - exactly like a worn out clutch); no noise or rattle - all very normal except for the shudder. The symptom is exactly like a worn out clutch. If I gas it up the shudder will reduce. When the vehicle is cold - there is no shudder whatsoever. It's only when it's warmed up.

I have experienced similar shudder in an old Datsun decades ago - cause was an oil seal in the drive shaft - slight leak was contaminating the pressure plate & clutch plate. (I personally had to replace the old Datsun clutch twice - because I missed the leaky oil seal the first time. Not a fun job without pits or hydraulic jack.)

Anyway I took the Defender to a privateer LandRover mechanic who reckons a few springs have likely given way (yes I know it was a problem on early Pumas' and there's bulletins on broken springs.) However there is no rattle, no noise whatsoever & no difficulty changing gears; just slight shudder and if you don't gas it up - it can get quite bad depending on whether you let the clutch our quick or gentle. Clutch fluid is fine - I've syringed it with fresh stuff several times because it was filthy. (Never trust the Dealer mechanics who tell you they've bled both brakes AND clutch. Anyway the mechanic told me syringing is fine for now because the bleed nipple is very difficult to access underneath <need two wrists and two elbows> AND this bleed nipple is made of plastic; easily stripped if not careful.)

I'm in two minds at whether to get it fixed or leave it because I spoke to a gentleman in passing who has owned nothing but LandRover Defenders' all his life and he reckons it's normal on some Defer Puma's. "Basically he said - some Puma's do it and some don't. Don't worry about it." I'm concerned long term or if and when I do some towing next. At $1000 to $1200 at less than 80k kilos' and a tight budget - do I or don't I? Any advice is most welcome...

Cheers
Chris ;):mad:

[n plus one]

Hi All,

Been a while since I posted anything. Still can't find that "Cape York Bush Tucker Man Map" and likely never will but that's another post.

My 2010 Landy Puma at 78000 kays recently developed a clutch shudder after a 1.5 hour country drive. Prior to that the clutch was perfect. What happens now is whenever I take off in 1st gear or more-so in reverse from a standing start - the beast will shudder (engine & gearbox - exactly like a worn out clutch); no noise or rattle - all very normal except for the shudder. The symptom is exactly like a worn out clutch. If I gas it up the shudder will reduce. When the vehicle is cold - there is no shudder whatsoever. It's only when it's warmed up.

I have experienced similar shudder in an old Datsun decades ago - cause was an oil seal in the drive shaft - slight leak was contaminating the pressure plate & clutch plate. (I personally had to replace the old Datsun clutch twice - because I missed the leaky oil seal the first time. Not a fun job without pits or hydraulic jack.)

Anyway I took the Defender to a privateer LandRover mechanic who reckons a few springs have likely given way (yes I know it was a problem on early Pumas' and there's bulletins on broken springs.) However there is no rattle, no noise whatsoever & no difficulty changing gears; just slight shudder and if you don't gas it up - it can get quite bad depending on whether you let the clutch our quick or gentle. Clutch fluid is fine - I've syringed it with fresh stuff several times because it was filthy. (Never trust the Dealer mechanics who tell you they've bled both brakes AND clutch. Anyway the mechanic told me syringing is fine for now because the bleed nipple is very difficult to access underneath <need two wrists and two elbows> AND this bleed nipple is made of plastic; easily stripped if not careful.)

I'm in two minds at whether to get it fixed or leave it because I spoke to a gentleman in passing who has owned nothing but LandRover Defenders' all his life and he reckons it's normal on some Defer Puma's. "Basically he said - some Puma's do it and some don't. Don't worry about it." I'm concerned long term or if and when I do some towing next. At $1000 to $1200 at less than 80k kilos' and a tight budget - do I or don't I? Any advice is most welcome...

Cheers
Chris ;):mad:

Mine gets a shudder uphill and in reverse - done so for at least the last 30,000k, might have done it before but I had a different driveway back then.

No clutch rattle and no other symptoms at all.

Maybe you have a leaking seal?

[BilboBoggles]

It's not a broken or loose engine or tranny mount? I did a clutch and flywheel on a td5 to cure a slight judder, and ended up with worse judder.

[PAT303]

Lots of things cause this,uni joints,bushes,the A frame one causes really bad snatching or you could have one of the crappy clutches LR was supplied,if it's the clutch I would get LR to replace it as it is a known warranty job. Pat

[fxap05250]

Thanks for the replies. n plus one - I tend to go with what you say - that is that it's quite normal for some Puma's. Reverse is more noticeable and 1st from standing start - it's there. Revving it a bit does reduce the vibration. There is no grabbing, snatching or lurching - it's all normal except for the slight judder; no noises either. When it's cold - it's smooth. Unfortunately out of warranty Pat. Uni joints feel fine underneath and I've just greased all in the tail shafts.

My brother has the '08 Puma - he's done 10K more than me - his is all perfectly fine - smooth as a baby's bottom. The irony is - I waited 2+ years and watched to see if he would have problems before I decided to buy mine.

The privateer mechanic says the TD5s' had a seriously huge robust clutch; virtually a truck clutch and he reckons over 200k klicks' is fine out of one of those TD5 clutches. When LandRover went to the Ford Duratech - they put in a wee puny little clutch and it took them a while to get it right with different versions until the springs stopped breaking. Go figure as the Yanks say. I'm starting to learn to accept this and go with the advice from the old die hard Defender owner who currently owns several Puma's - "don't worry about it, some do and some don't judder." So I simply gas it up a little to minimise the judder. Just a bit annoying to have to put up with it if it is indeed the case of "some do and some don't." My brother does have a laugh and refers to my "Shaker" Defender compared to his....

I just thought I'd get more opinions and anyone out there who agrees with the bloke I spoke with...

Cheers
Chris :o

[n plus one]

It's not a broken or loose engine or tranny mount? I did a clutch and flywheel on a td5 to cure a slight judder, and ended up with worse judder.

Actually, that's a good point re the mounts - I'll check mine this weekend!

[PAT303]

Chris,even though it's out of warranty if it's a faulty clutch LR will replace it out of goodwill.I would see them about it,it does sound like a faulty clutch,the springs fall out and cause all sorts of issue's. Pat

[BilboBoggles]

Having lived through 4 Clutch failures on my MY09, before Land rover put one in that lasted, in my experience a Clutch failure on a puma results in nasty knocking sounds when you switch off the engine, or Total Clutch failure if the springs jam the clutch, or nasty grinding sounds in low range. But I never had any clutch judder in any of the failures.

I did have a clutch judder issue on my TD5. I spent a lot of time investigating and from what I can tell there are many issues unrelated to the clutch that can cause clutch judder, and one or two in the clutch that can cause it. So if it is clutch related, then these are the areas to look at:

1 - Clutch face contamination. - A leaky rear main seal, or on a TD5 a leaky Fuel pressure regulator can allow oil or diesel onto the clutch surface - you can prove this using a borosocope using whatever access you can to the bell housing. You will see the contamination, sometimes you will be lucky and see it dripping out of the bottom of the bell housing. Fix the leak and drive it for a while and you may be lucky and it may go away. I had diesel contaminaiton on mine from a leaky fuel regulator, and I think that;s what caused this:

2 - Hot spots on the flywheel. Particularly if you slip the clutch a bit or tow and slip the clutch, you will get localised hot spots on the flywheel surface. This is where the surface has become heat hardened resulting in these spots becoming more and more protruding as the softer surrounding metal wears away. This is unfortunately fatal and requires a new flywheel and revised driving procedures. You can see these hot spots as shiny smears on the flywheel surface. Flywheels can develop hot spots due to their poor metal composition too - so not just bad driving style can cause this.

3 - Misalignment between the clutch and the flywheel. microscopic thickness variations in the clutch or flywheel can make your brand new clutch/flywheel judder like crazy. Eventually it will bed in and wear smooth. The brand new clutch in my TD5 took 30,000ks'... Now it's perfect.

4 - Worn gearbox input shaft - I did not experience this personally - but apparently a worn bearing on the gearbox can cause all sorts of odd issues due to alignment. (At least that's what I was told... Not sure I believe it though...)

You can live with clutch judder - it does put a little extra strain on the drive train if you are not careful. However it's bloody awful to drive a Defender with clutch judder, if you live with it you will end up hating to drive that Defender.. I did. Then I spent the nearly $7k on getting the clutch/flywheel/harmonic balance/power steering pump leak that ate the harmonic balancer + a few others things, done, and my old defender was eventually pleasant to drive again.


Unfortunately whilst the clutch on a TD5 is chunky, and the flywheel an impressive piece of art.. It's quite likely that by about 160,000 the bearing in the center if the dual mass TD5 flywheel is knackered, and that by 200,000 the flywheel will be due for replacement. The dual mass flywheel is a consumable on the TD5, but is awesome at reducing driveline vibration - something that would have made the 2.4 PUMA much more pleasant to live with. Interestingly the 2.2 I now have is now where near as rough as the 2.4 - I assume it's been programmed to reduce torsional vibration.

[Lionel]

My 2010 Landy Puma at 78000 kays recently developed a clutch shudder after a 1.5 hour country drive. Prior to that the clutch was perfect.

The fact this developed suddenly suggests to me it is more likely a drivetrain mount problem than either plate contamination or another wear related problem in the clutch itself.

I would be checking all engine & transmission mounting points very carefully before tackling the clutch itself.

Cheers,

Lionel

[JDNSW]

Something not mentioned - dragging handbrake.

John

[PAT303]

^,yep,forgot that one. Pat

[fxap05250]

G'day All,

Thanks for your great replies guys; much appreciated. Yes, I'm a bit hesitant to take it to the local dealer for a number of reasons Pat. One, I've seen enough shoddy worksmanship there, two they may take it all apart and tell me it wasn't the clutch - it was something else - then charge me for taking it all apart plus parts or three they may not find the root cause and still charge me like a wounded bull.

BilboBoggles, I would hate to go thru what you've gone thru - $7k is a lot of dough & the frustration of it all would make one very despondent. (One can buy a 2nd hand rice burner for that.) I know of at least one very ambivalent LandRover owner who has been punished at their back pocket like you (and now owns a LandCruiser <but still loves LandRovers'> who's wife won't let him buy another) and I do not intend to go there. But you're quite correct; it takes a lot of joy out of driving the Landy. I can accept it warts and all for it's little chink if it is as one experienced Landy owner once described to me previously. I must admit, clearly, prior to that particular trip from Cairns to Mossman it was always smooth as a baby's bottom, but I did take it to governor speed along the straights (although I must admit I've done that before.) I recall arriving and it was when parking the vehicle I distinctly noticed the judder. I never ride the clutch - always been mindful "foot COMPLETELY OFF clutch pedal" when not changing gears so I know it's not driving technique.

If I had to make a calculated guess without pulling it all apart and hitting my back pocket I reckon contamination (leaky seal, as I once experienced), could indeed be engine mounts - (haven't looked there yet but intend to), or glazed clutch plate. I have been releasing the clutch a lot quicker in a vain attempt to try to deglaze it lately (if so.)

One final possibility though as you say Lionel - drivetrain mount problem. I didn't mention this but I had the whole rear differential replaced under warranty by the dealer in the 3rd year for noise. The noise was exactly like as though you reverse in most cars - you know, the winding sound which goes up and down in pitch with speed. Perhaps the apprentices they put on the job at the dealer may not have torqued up all nuts and bolts properly? I may go through them all with spanners' & check engine mounts this weekend.

My gut feeling is still the clutch though. The whole front end (engine, transmission & bell housing wobbles) - the symptom exactly of a worn, slipping or glazed up clutch. No noise, rattles or anything else. The take up when fully released is positive. And when releasing the clutch - it takes up early - not late; which leads me to believe the clutch plate still has lots of meat. Even when changing down from 3rd to 2nd one can feel the judder very slightly. Don't know if it's a further tell tail sign but as I said before - from stone cold in the morning or if it's been sitting for an hour - no judder whatsoever - smooth.

If anything, the handbrake is quite loose JDNSW. I've got to pull it up quite a bit to anchor the vehicle properly so I'm almost adamant it's not the handbrake. I'm about to put it in for an 80k service soon so I'll get the privateer mechanic's further opinion. (The irony is that it was this guy who told us of all the Puma's clutch/spring problems only a few months ago prior to this starting; it's his opinion that I've likely got a spring busted inside <that perhaps hasn't disloged?> Hence no rattle?)

Personally I would have thought a clutch should last at least 200 to 300k+ although perhaps you can shorten that with the 6 speed box.

Incidently the LandRover bloke who told me in passing that "some do and some don't judder, don't worry about it" owns several Defender Pumas'. He is a die hard Defender owner who I got the impression does tours with his Landies' for a crust (from W.A and I came across him in Cairns on his way back to the West Coast.
In the meantime I've got myself a Shakin' Landy....
Thanks guys.

Cheers
Chris

[JDNSW]

If the handbrake has oil in it, it is capable of both dragging and not holding well at the same time! Easy test is to see how hot the handbrake gets after a short run.

John

[PAT303]

I feel sorry for you guys with poor local dealers,the one I use has been excellent with two of my vehicles. Pat

[BilboBoggles]

Well. One lesson I've learned is to never ever post on a forum saying your defender is fixed... Damned TD5 Clutch has started juddering again. Looks like a oil/fuel leak down the back of the block again...

[BilboBoggles]

G'day All,



My gut feeling is still the clutch though. The whole front end (engine, transmission & bell housing wobbles) - the symptom exactly of a worn, slipping or glazed up clutch. No noise, rattles or anything else. The take up when fully released is positive. And when releasing the clutch - it takes up early - not late; which leads me to believe the clutch plate still has lots of meat. Even when changing down from 3rd to 2nd one can feel the judder very slightly. Don't know if it's a further tell tail sign but as I said before - from stone cold in the morning or if it's been sitting for an hour - no judder whatsoever - smooth.
Cheers
Chris


One test I did that was quite interesting. Pull the bonnet off - Takes 2 people about 10 seconds. Then drive around without the bonnet whilst watching the engine. I would think that if the juddering was in the clutch then you would see that engine wobble around like crazy.. Mine did.

[fxap05250]

Don't you just love it when "Murphy" starts dominating things around you; sorry to hear you spoke too soon BilboBoggles. I've learnt never to count your chickens before they hatch when it comes to concluding until it's passed the test "long term". I agree it can be very unnerving when you think you're past a certain point and the problem returns though - been there done that. And indeed, driving around with a shakin' Landy can be annoying but I've decided I'm going to put up with it for now.

Bilbo, I'm not that keen to undo those 6 bolts and ask someone on the other end to help lift off ma bonnet but "I know" the engine is mainly the one juddering; you can feel it in the flywheel when you release. All this time until the problem started I could ease the clutch out slowly (even without throttling as with most diesels) and the vehicle would crawl in reverse or 1st very very smoothly. Now I have to give it a little bit of throttle to smooth it out; if I get the balance right - very little judder or almost none. It just makes for lack of precision when gently parking. If it's stone cold - no judder. Reverse is a bit worse than 1st. I reckon I can simply force myself to accept it for now but my only concern is long term or when towing or when we go camping again, driving in sand or mud again (which I'm hoping is soon...)

Pat, I'm in Bush Tucker Man territory here and I know the local Dealer services his vehicles - they've told me so. Unfortunately I am not a celebrity so I don't get the same treatment as Les when it comes to servicing his & his wife's Landies' by the local Dealer. I've noticed a lot of tardiness with jobs done over the years with both my brother's and my Defer but I've only brought something to their attention once & fixed things up myself on other occasions. No point complaining. The turnover of staff as the point of contact in the service dept here has also clocked over a few times...

A month b4 my warranty was about to expire they made it very clear in no uncertain terms it's the last chance to get anything fixed under this policy - put in any complaints before it's too late. Not sure if you're aware - the Defender is the only model LandRover whereby the warranty CANNOT be extended. Apparently it's to do with the fact that there are a lot of people that buy'em & push them to their limits' and there's a lot of outback tour companies up here that do just that; hence the exclusion to extensions' on Defender Warranties. I've digressed.

I intend to get underneath ma shakin' Landy this weekend and check torque tensions on all undercarriage bolts and inspect the engine mounts. Can't say I hold out on anything groundbreaking but watch this space; you never know...

Thanks again guys,
Cheers
Chris

[BilboBoggles]

No bolts to undo, just open the bonnet to about 90degrees and it can be lifted off upwards.

Interesting it's not juddering when cold, that kind of contradicts contamination, as that is worse when it's cold.

[fxap05250]

Bilbo,
Really? Wasn't aware you could go 90° and lift upwards to remove bonnet; trade secrets.
If what you say about contamination is true - then it's got to be a "glazed" clutch plate or drivetrain mount problem as in loose bolt/bolts. If springs were broken I reckon you would hear rattles, grinding, noise of some sort or difficulty in changing gears. I'm getting none of that. All normal, except for the slight judder.
I shall get under vehicle and look for engine mounts problems tomorrow or Sunday.
Cheers
Chris

[fxap05250]

Well, I spent a bit of time underneath the vehicle checking for loose nuts and bolts on the weekend. Can't say I found any. I'm going to put the vehicle in for an 80000km service in the next week or so. I'll ask the mechanic's opinion but I don't think it's serious enough to warrant a clutch plate change and frankly I tend to agree with the chap who suggested that some Defers' do have a bit of a shudder and others don't.

I also checked the parking brake drum after a drive. It ain't hot or overheating as some one suggested, so there's no overloading the clutch on take off.

As stated, the take up is early - an indication it's in no way near worn. I reckon the plate itself is simply a bit glazed up. As to why it's glazed up - go figure, as my driving habits are no different to my brother's and his Landy is fine with at least 10-15k more kays. If anything, to be frank my gear changes are smoother - purely because I'm a stickler in avoiding the clunk that goes with the backlash of the tailshaft gears; probably what's contributed to glaze the plate a bit.

At this stage I am going to simply accept the vehicle for what it does. A bit of a wobble or shake on take off isn't too hard to get use to. Bit of throttle and it's not even noticeable by passengers. Thanks all for your input and suggestions.

Cheers
Chris

[fxap05250]

The service went well. Wasn't cheap but Rene is the best in Cairns apparently. He reckons nothing to lose sleep over, likely a slightly warped clutch/pressure plate - hence the judder. He agrees' could be slightly glazed but his gut feeling is it's a bit buckled. The judder could be worse - he's definitely seen worse. So for now I'll just keep truckin'...

Thanks all...
Cheers
Chris