New "Terror" Laws & others.

[Pickles2]

I applaud the Governments new "Terror" laws, & the other protective issues they are putting in place. I see the "civil libritarians" are already saying, "we'll have to look at these to make sure people's rights are not affected". Couldn't give a stuff if they are.
I also approve of other moves being made so that electronic communication will have to be able to be accessed for two years.
The security laws in this Country are an absolute joke compared to many other parts of the world,...I wanna be safe,...so tighten 'em up all you like.
Pickles.

[Disco Muppet]

Another knee-jerk reaction...
Of course you don't give a stuff, it's not going to affect you is it? Why would the government want to monitor the communications of your average good old Aussie fella or sheila eh?
Of course, it will stop those nasty 'middle eastern' terrorist types, good oh. Pfft, human rights. Not important in the grand scheme of things.
[/Sarcastia]

[BMKal]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/1231.jpg

:wasntme:

[London Boy]

Adolf Hitler himself said that the way to remove freedom is just one bit at a time, so that when the people eventually realise what has happened it is far too late for them to do anything about it. I can say that with a straight face, because that is indeed the pattern we see.

The freedom you now have is nothing like as broad as you would think. You are subject to market and political manipulation, and you have a raft of nanny laws to obey, and you have no privacy at all.

And you wanna be safe... from what?

The security laws in this country are probably as good as they need to be. It is naive to think that any further 'strengthening' is to increase your security. It is not. It is to increase control. Do you really think that actual bad people, the ones who blow things up, use open internet connections and identifiable phone numbers, and all those things that the laws will actually track and control?

[olbod]

I'm pretty sure tho that it will help to keep America safe.

[Chucaro]

Wait! do not post, give me time to get some more chocolate peanuts, this it is going to be Valium material for the moderators and members that can not restrain their passions.
Lucky that I am not one of them :angel:

[derpomz]

Wait! do not post, give me time to get some more chocolate peanuts, this it is going to be Valium material for the moderators and members that can not restrain their passions.
Lucky that I am not one of them :angel:

I think for the first offence it should be crucifixion, string em up i say, lovely people the romans.

[harro]

Adolf Hitler himself said that the way to remove freedom is just one bit at a time, so that when the people eventually realise what has happened it is far too late for them to do anything about it. I can say that with a straight face, because that is indeed the pattern we see.

The freedom you now have is nothing like as broad as you would think. You are subject to market and political manipulation, and you have a raft of nanny laws to obey, and you have no privacy at all.

And you wanna be safe... from what?

The security laws in this country are probably as good as they need to be. It is naive to think that any further 'strengthening' is to increase your security. It is not. It is to increase control. Do you really think that actual bad people, the ones who blow things up, use open internet connections and identifiable phone numbers, and all those things that the laws will actually track and control?

I would think this has more to do with inciting general national security paranoia.
When all else fails national security is always a poll winner.
Desperate move IMO.
And yes it is a further erosion of your rights and freedoms.

[Disco Muppet]

I think for the first offence it should be crucifixion, string em up i say, lovely people the romans.

One cross each, line on the left :D

[incisor]

I think for the first offence it should be crucifixion, string em up i say, lovely people the romans.
https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/10565240_761809823861901_6356303987796558229_n.jpg

[Redback]

Stoning - Monty Python's Life of Brian - YouTube

[JDNSW]

The proposed data retention will affect you. The cost to the ISPs is not trivial, and if they are required to fund it, it will mean a significant rise in your data costs, and if you expect the government to pay for it, perhaps some ideas might be forthcoming as to which tax should be raised.

Further, since there will be hundreds of companies holding vast quantities of personal data for years, it it a little naive to expect it to all remain secure. So you can expect your browsing habits and correspondents to become publicly available. Of course, you never look at anything that would be a concern to anyone, such as an employer/spouse/friend etc, do you?

John

[singlecell]

This is the online equivalent of being forced to wear a GPS tracker so they can see where you have been 24/7.
Also a fair bit over terrorist being used as an excuse to look into the personal information of the public. At least be honest about its reasonings. Which if I had to guess would be to find copyright infringements.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using AULRO mobile app

[Chucaro]

A clear explanation IMO

The distinction between data and metadata is nothing more than a sales pitch for the Australian government’s dangerous plan to violate every citizen’s civil liberties (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/06/you-want-my-metadata-george-brandis-get-a-warrant)

[Tote]

A clear explanation IMO

The distinction between data and metadata is nothing more than a sales pitch for the Australian government’s dangerous plan to violate every citizen’s civil liberties (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/06/you-want-my-metadata-george-brandis-get-a-warrant)

Hmmmm.... Maybe a more balanced way to explain it would be that police can observe you in a public place without a warrant, why would they need a warrant to track the data that you leave in a public place ie "the internet" as you move around. As opposed to needing a warrant to inspect your home or needing a warrant to read your email or monitor your phone calls.

This does not mean its a good idea, just that defining metadata as being the same as actual data is a big reach.

Regards,
Tote

[dick180641]

Pickles, old chap, you must be in lalaland. Of the 13 replies to your post ALL were NOT in favour. There's your answer of what Australians think of the police /nanny state

[frantic]

This is a chocolate cake to conspiracy theorists, some of whom may be right.;):D
The easiest, not fastest, but easiest way for a terrorist/terrorist group to get themselves or gear into the country is by boat.
They are spending billions at the airports on security, monitors, scanners, new finger print devices etc and at the ports you have a couple of customs guys watching camera's. In my area we have 12 berths for various ships( inner harbour, outer has 3 with more being built), in any of those there are places that never get inspected and after being tied up the crew can come and go as they like. There have been several who have gone on a train to never return, they can carry a backpack or suitcase off the ship, throw it in the taxi or airport bus/limo and it never gets looked at.
There have been several customs raids on full ships at our berths, dogs, divers dozens of blokes. The problem is they then leave it to be unloaded and never come back, yet inside each hatch under 15m of cargo/12-20,000 ton is the floor with manholes to access the sump areas between hatch floor and hull. Any crew member could stash a pack there of whatever, retrieve it after we've emptied the hatch and walk off the ship untouched.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

At best this is security theatre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater), at worst it is as the conspiracy theorist's claim.

Either way - not a good idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...).

Wait until 4wd-ers are classed as terrorists (no I'm not being serious, but you get my drift).

[Phil HH]

This does not mean its a good idea, just that defining metadata as being the same as actual data is a big reach.




Tote, when it comes to surveillance, the difference is either the stroke of a pen, or the omission of 4 letters. Metadata - meta = data. It will be so easy to change the wording so that rather than just protecting us from crazed terrorists, we will also be protected from ourselves.


By the way, as part of the Big Brother topic, how long will it be before the number plate recognition cameras that moniter heavy vehicle point-to-point times are extended to monitering ALL vehicles?

[FeatherWeightDriver]

By the way, as part of the Big Brother topic, how long will it be before the number plate recognition cameras that moniter heavy vehicle point-to-point times are extended to monitering ALL vehicles?

Why would you assume they don't monitor all vehicles? :twisted:

[bsperka]

Until the laws are turned against the innocent. Read this article and then say its only the guilty that need to be cocerned. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken

[incisor]

Data retention laws: Tony Abbott says Government 'seeking metadata', not targeting people's browsing history - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-06/security-laws-abbott-browsing-history-not-collected/5652364)

[Chucaro]

I do not understand much the issue of how to monitoring a nasty individual.
So how hard will be to monitoring a low life if he use a laptop with minimum information on it and use emails in places with free wireless services like Mc Donalds, etc?
It will be possible to track this person if he uses different locations?
Are these laws effective against that?

[DiscoMick]

I thought the important point was Abbott's insistence that they only wanted the companies to keep data they already keep, which appears to contradict his government's own discussion paper, which said they wanted to be able to force the telcos to keep 'all' data. Only one of those statements can be true.
Basically, everything we do online is already being monitored by someone, in this country or overseas. A copy of this forum is certainly being stored somewhere, probably by the NSA in the US and by our own spooks - for no reason, but simply because they can. Don't laugh, I'm not joking.
In a world in which former US President Jimmy Carter says he assumes the FBI and CIA etc are already monitoring his communications, and so writes snail mail letters about important confidential matters, I think the horse has already bolted on personal privacy.
The only question is whether we should let our government strengthen its surveillance of our private lives.
One question no-one seems to have asked is this: where is the evidence that any Australians who have had any connection with terrorist acts overseas have ever come back to Australia and committed a terrorist act? Where's the evidence? Did David Hicks come back and bomb anyone? No. Etc etc...
Seems like an unproven idea to me...


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/06/you-want-my-metadata-george-brandis-get-a-warrant

[Pickles2]

Like I said, I applaud the idea, so, in my case, absolutely no "Knee jerk reaction" here, quite the opposite actually. This should have happened long ago. But please guys, as one has said, please don't get the valium out. I'm outnumbered what, 20:1, like I said, I don't give a stuff, I'm happy with the idea.
I've got nothing to hide, I couldn't care less if anyone wants to "check up" on me,...why should I worry....I ain't got nothing to hide. The Govt can check my emails too,...why should I be concerned about that?
And, if all this so called "umpopular" stuff, stops a bomb or whatever coming to Aus, I'm happy.
Someone said,.."afraid of what"?....., someone ain't reading the papers, several have been convicted of various terrorist activities in Aus. If this stuff stops some of these "crazies" doing harm in Aus, I'm happy.
Don't think any bombs can go off in Aus?....Well of course you'll think this is all totally unnecessary.
But, please guys, no valium, it is after all only a forum discussion.
I've got everyone disagreeing with me, & I ain't unhappy!
Pickles.

[AndyG]

It's a bit like , have you stop beating your wife.

We store buckets of data, most of which is already stored for other reasons, and an incident is averted, which we never hear of.
Or someone does blow something up, because they were clever/aware, so the project is a failure.

Me, having run ISP's and being naturally paranoid, i carry a dumb phone. And avoid all social media, apart from this one site.

But with all that data, im going to write a app that tracks white hiluxes in real time, so the Deefer can jump off the road and hide when one comes within a 100 m. Who wants a copy.

[Ferret]

I do not understand much the issue of how to monitoring a nasty individual.

How collecting meta data uncovers the 'nasty' individuals for closer scrutiny. It's all about linkages that people share, not necessarily about what they say.

Bit of maths spoken about but you will get the picture.

Kieran Healy, Associate Professor in Sociology and the Kenan Institute for Ethics. Using Metadata to find Paul Revere. (http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/)

[Tombie]

It's a bit like , have you stop beating your wife.



We store buckets of data, most of which is already stored for other reasons, and an incident is averted, which we never hear of.

Or someone does blow something up, because they were clever/aware, so the project is a failure.



Me, having run ISP's and being naturally paranoid, i carry a dumb phone. And avoid all social media, apart from this one site.



But with all that data, im going to write a app that tracks white hiluxes in real time, so the Deefer can jump off the road and hide when one comes within a 100 m. Who wants a copy.


And you think the location of you and your dumb phone aren't tracked?

Have I got some disappointing news for you :)

[JDNSW]

From:-
Australia's metadata debate is an utter shambles (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/06/australias_metadata_debate_is_an_utter_shambles/)


"As much as anything, Australians should fear the government's metadata retention proposals because it's becoming increasingly clear that our politicians have no idea what they're proposing.
Within a single day of the prime minister, Tony Abbott, taking to the microphone with attorney-general George Brandis and foreign minister Julie Bishop to announce the plan as a raft of counter-terrorism measures, the PM has:


Broadened the justification for metadata retention from preventing terrorism to crime-fighting “in general”;
Stated that the new laws are needed because carriers already store the data the government wants;
Asserted that metadata retention will involve no cost to carriers because they already collect the data the government wants; and
Broadened the scope of the data collection to Web browsing history, while simultaneously trotting out the national security establishment's falsehood that metadata collection is no more than “reading what's on the envelope”.


In a single day, the prime minister has put himself at odds with statements made by the national security establishment – most usually from the director-general of ASIO, David Irvine – to parliamentary committees examining data retention, security laws, and telecommunications interception laws.
......”

Maybe this is what we should be concerned about! The fact that none of the politicians involved, with the possible exception of Turnbull, have even a vague idea what they are talking about.

John

[AllTerr]

"Anyone who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither....."

Benjamin Franklin


Sent from my iPhone using AULRO mobile app

[Tombie]

And anyone who believes in this day and age that they have privacy...
Is a fool...

[Tote]

As JDNSW has pointed out our illustrious leader has not covered himself in technical glory today. Maybe someone should advise him a bit better before he spruiks on a topic that is presided over by a million OCD nerds who will pick up the slightest error, let alone the gaffes he has made today........

Regards,
Tote

[bob10]

Well, here's Irvines take on it, Bob


Asio spy chief defends surveillance network and argues for broader powers | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/asio-spy-chief-defends-surveillence-network)

[Chucaro]

Well, here's Irvines take on it, Bob


Asio spy chief defends surveillance network and argues for broader powers | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/asio-spy-chief-defends-surveillence-network)

Is his view based on this? :angel:

George Brandis in 'car crash' interview over controversial data retention regime (http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/george-brandis-in-car-crash-interview-over-controversial-data-retention-regime-20140806-101849.html)

George Brandis in the most embarrassing interview you'll ever be likely to see.

[Pickles2]

Well, here's Irvines take on it, Bob


Asio spy chief defends surveillance network and argues for broader powers | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/asio-spy-chief-defends-surveillence-network)
Well, of course, I agree.
And, I hear today, that there's some sort of "scandal" in our visa "checking process", where, whilst there's some effort to stop the boats, "iffy" visas are allowing plenty to slip through un noticed by air. Now I know this isn't the first time that it's been raised that "air arrivals" should be more vigorously checked,..it's now quite obvious that they should be,...and hopefully will be.
Pickles.

[harro]

Is his view based on this? :angel:

George Brandis in 'car crash' interview over controversial data retention regime (http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/george-brandis-in-car-crash-interview-over-controversial-data-retention-regime-20140806-101849.html)

George Brandis in the most embarrassing interview you'll ever be likely to see. (https://twitter.com/GrogsGamut/status/496939700788031488)

I believe the term 'policy on the run' is applicable here.
Which of course raises the question of motive?

[goingbush]

Talk about hidden agendas, None of this would be possible without the NBN. Did anybody mention Agenda 21

[incisor]

I believe the term 'policy on the run' is applicable here.
Which of course raises the question of motive?
When was it that the adults were supposed to be taking over?

[DiscoMick]

Asylum seekers are not terrorists, so these current proposals for tightening security measures do not affect asylum seekers. Separate subject altogether. These measures relate to people who are already here, probably already citizens, but go off to fight overseas.


The definition of a terrorist is interesting. If two people go off to fight for another cause, whether they're patriots or terrorists seems to depend on some arbitrary definition of which side we favour. For example, if an Australian Jew and an Australian Arab go off to fight, one for Israel and the other for Hamas, why do we assume the Israeli is a patriot and the Arab a terrorist?


Another issue is how it might affect people who are not terrorists, but want to visit disputed areas. If I decide to fly to Damascus for a legitimate reason, will I be labelled a terrorist? What about if I want to go to Jerusalem or the Gaza or Sudan or Burma?


In WWII we praised Aussies who signed up to fight for Britain, but interned a very large number of Australians of German background, even though there was little evidence they were any threat to Australia.


The bottom line though is the government has to make the case that the current laws, which are pretty extensive, are not enough to deal with a very small number of potential terrorists - an estimated 150 Aussies fighting overseas. This is only a potential future threat of course, not a present threat, as no-one has come back and committed a terrorist act, as far as I know.


Apparently we already know who they are, where they are and can cancel their passports and deny them re-entry, so why do the security services need extra powers?

[rocmic]

I've got nothing to hide, I couldn't care less if anyone wants to "check up" on me,...why should I worry....I ain't got nothing to hide. The Govt can check my emails too,...why should I be concerned about that?

Pickles.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me."

Martin Niemoller

There is no requirement for a warrant to use this data, there is history in all democracies of governments re-defining who or what is an enemy of the state.

Cheers
Mike

[nugge t]

For example, if an Australian Jew and an Australian Arab go off to fight, one for Israel and the other for Hamas, why do we assume the Israeli is a patriot and the Arab a terrorist?



Pssibly becasue one is fighting in the army of a country and the other is fighting for a terror organisation???

Wiki..

Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by Israel, the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan.

I am pretty sure it is deemed to be a terror organisation by Australia as well.:D

[harro]

When was it that the adults were supposed to be taking over?

Have they ever?:angel:

[Chucaro]

.................................................. .....
The definition of a terrorist is interesting. If two people go off to fight for another cause, whether they're patriots or terrorists seems to depend on some arbitrary definition of which side we favour. For example, if an Australian Jew and an Australian Arab go off to fight, one for Israel and the other for Hamas, why do we assume the Israeli is a patriot and the Arab a terrorist?
.................................................. ......................

Fair comment, it all depends in which side of the fence is the person that label the action of the government of a nation or group as a terrorists.
I do not like or approve the behavior of both sides in this case, it is tragic, destructive and will not achieve nothing at the end, just misery and death :(
We should have the right to live in peace.
Having said that and trying to seat in the middle of the fence Hamas is a legitimate political group elected by the people to govern Gaza.
If they are involved in a terrorism activities it is another matter, it does not mean that they have not elected by the people to govern the territory.

[JDNSW]

Actually I think there is a good chance both will be in strife when they come back, unless the one fighting for Israel has dual citizenship (or is an Israeli citizen resident in Australia).

John

[ramblingboy42]

Fair comment, it all depends in which side of the fence is the person that label the action of the government of a nation or group as a terrorists.
I do not like or approve the behavior of both sides in this case, it is tragic, destructive and will not achieve nothing at the end, just misery and death :(
We should have the right to live in peace.
Having said that and trying to seat in the middle of the fence Hamas is a legitimate political group elected by the people to govern Gaza.
If they are involved in a terrorism activities it is another matter, it does not mean that they have not elected by the people to govern the territory.

One of the biggest problems here is something like this.

If Hamas lay down their arms there will be no more shooting.

If Israel lay down their arms, it will be destroyed.

That is one of the huge differences

[Chucaro]

One of the biggest problems here is something like this.

If Hamas lay down their arms there will be no more shooting.

If Israel lay down their arms, it will be destroyed.

That is one of the huge differences

Then again people in the other side of the fence said quote:

Abdulrahman: Name one peace truce or treaty or peace talks where the result hasn’t been further Israeli settlements being built on Palestinian land. This has increased the occupation of Palestine by the Zionist entity. There have been more Palestinians displaced and more homes demolished. Every peace treaty signed with the Zionist entity has done nothing but allow more settlements and more occupation to the extent of the Zionist government approving 14,000 new settlement homes during the last peace talks with Abbas last April. Abbas is nothing but a disgrace in my opinion, to his own land and people.
End off quote:

SOURCE (http://thoughtcatalog.com/james-b-barnes/2014/08/qa-an-advocate-for-palestine-explains-why-he-believes-peace-is-impossible-on-stolen-land/)

Mate this issue it is so complex that I do not have much hope that will be resolved during my life here :(
They are going on and on........

[goingbush]

if 'somebody' wanted to bring Australia to its knees, it would be quite easily done and there is not a bloody thing 'our' Government, 'our' Millitary or any new anti terrorist law could do about it.

Our basic infrastructure security is almost non existent, our borders are as good as unprotected and our fuel supply is imported, two weeks without petrol / one week without electricity or two days without internet and the place will become an anarchists playground.

it would be so easy to pull of a SHTF event its not even funny

[bob10]

if 'somebody' wanted to bring Australia to its knees, it would be quite easily done and there is not a bloody thing 'our' Government, 'our' Millitary or any new anti terrorist law could do about it.

Our basic infrastructure security is almost non existent, our borders are as good as unprotected and our fuel supply is imported, two weeks without petrol / one week without electricity or two days without internet and the place will become an anarchists playground.

it would be so easy to pull of a SHTF event its not even funny


Agree entirely, well almost. Intelligence is the key. keep on top of who's saying what, to whom [ persons of interest] is the only protection before the event gets to the organizing stage. After that, it's up to feet on the ground. That's why this talkfest in Brisbane is brilliant, with so many World leaders coming, we will have the best training, from so many areas, and can build from there. Bob

[derpomz]

I have read all the stuff on this subject on this post.

It seems to me that what people are doing is jumping the gun, pardon the pun. Nothing has been cast in stone as of yet. If you guys are so concerned, the only way to fix things is at the ballot box.

Its no good jumping up and down. People in this country, and others for that matter, vote for whats in it for them. Its no good screaming and getting heated over something which we have no control. The Government will do what it pleases, and whos fault is that..............US. We put them in there so isnt it time we stopped thingking about me me me and think whats best for the country.

One more thing, how do you know asylum seekers arnt terroristsm isnt thats why they are kept apart until we find out. Look at some the people we have let in and what they have done.

[Chucaro]

I have read all the stuff on this subject on this post.

It seems to me that what people are doing is jumping the gun, pardon the pun. Nothing has been cast in stone as of yet. If you guys are so concerned, the only way to fix things is at the ballot box.

Its no good jumping up and down. People in this country, and others for that matter, vote for whats in it for them. Its no good screaming and getting heated over something which we have no control. The Government will do what it pleases, and whos fault is that..............US. We put them in there so isnt it time we stopped thingking about me me me and think whats best for the country.

One more thing, how do you know asylum seekers arnt terroristsm isnt thats why they are kept apart until we find out. Look at some the people we have let in and what they have done.

No if the senate do not pass the legislation ;)
It is the legitimate right of the people in a democracy to express their opinions and approach those that have control in the upper house to stop what it is undesirable.

[Pickles2]

No if the senate do not pass the legislation ;)
It is the legitimate right of the people in a democracy to express their opinions and approach those that have control in the upper house to stop what it is undesirable.
The Senate is an absolute joke. There are people in there who have NO IDEA about Aussie Politics, actually NO IDEA about ANY politics, only about pushing, in many cases, their own individual ideas, which again in many cases have no bearing on the future well being of Aus.
Government should be, as you say, ABOUT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE, which is NOT the situation in the Aussie Senate.
Pickles.

[goingbush]

I have read all the stuff on this subject on this post.

It seems to me that what people are doing is jumping the gun, pardon the pun. Nothing has been cast in stone as of yet. If you guys are so concerned, the only way to fix things is at the ballot box.


Like having another party in power would change anything - in your dreams.

[Chucaro]

The Senate is an absolute joke. There are people in there who have NO IDEA about Aussie Politics, actually NO IDEA about ANY politics, only about pushing, in many cases, their own individual ideas, which again in many cases have no bearing on the future well being of Aus.
Government should be, as you say, ABOUT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE, which is NOT the situation in the Aussie Senate.
Pickles.

I do no disagree with you Pickles, but this is the system that we have and we have to live with it.
You can bet that if there is a referendum to change it people will vote for NO.

[2stroke]

Fully fledged terrorists will fly under the radar anyway, they've had over a decade of dealing with the highest level of electronic surveillance. Guess it might have an effect on home grown and wannabee types, as well as webs of association. I just think a lot of the eavesdropping will be misused further down the track.
Politically I mean.

[nugge t]

Appears to me that this is aimed at homegrown terrorists.

The Bali bombers were homegrown terrorists many of whom, from what I have read, did stints in Afghanastan and then returned to Indonesia.

88 Australians died. With AFL and NFL Grand finals just around the corner I hope this thread doesn't back to haunt because some are worried about their "rights".

[incisor]

Government should be, as you say, ABOUT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE, which is NOT the situation in the Aussie Senate.
Pickles.

the senate is there to protect the rights of the states i believe.

to hold the lower house to account and to make sure what they say they are going to do is what they do..

it isn't about rubber stamping the government of the day.

[nugge t]

the senate is there to protect the rights of the states i believe.

to hold the lower house to account and to make sure what they say they are going to do is what they do..

it isn't about rubber stamping the government of the day.

That hardly sweems to be the case right now. The Government took their plans to the Australian people, were elected on that basis and now it is the Senate who are obstructing their agenda.

Nice to see that the blame is now being placed in the right area though.:D

[incisor]

That hardly sweems to be the case right now. The Government took their plans to the Australian people, were elected on that basis and now it is the Senate who are obstructing their agenda.

Nice to see that the blame is now being placed in the right area though.:D

i think you missed the bit about doing what they said they would do...

fair enough they have stopped the boats..

but there was nary a word of most of the other stuff which is why they are as popular as they are at the moment one would think...

no doubt you will disagree but i distinctly remember a shed load of statements about not doing this and not doing that which seem to have fallen by the wayside.

to quote of a few

Broadcasting


“...no cuts to the ABC or SBS.” (Tony Abbott, September 2013)

Treasurer Joe Hockey announced $43.5 million in cuts over four years in Tuesday's budget.
Education, health


“No cuts to education, no cuts to health…” (Tony Abbott, September 2013)

Tuesday's budget imposed an $80 billion cut to health and education spending over next decade.


“We are not shutting any Medicare locals.” (Tony Abbott, August 2013)

All 61 Medicare Locals will now be scrapped and replaced with new local health networks.
Taxes


“No one’s personal tax will go up” (Tony Abbott, March 2012)

The Treasurer confirmed a deficit levy would be imposed on people who earn incomes over $180,000.
Pensions


"No changes to pensions" (Tony Abbott, September 2013)

Tuesday's budget confirmed age and disability pensions will fall behind wages growth from 2017 after they are instead linked to inflation.
Foreign Aid


“From 2014/15, the $5 billion aid budget will grow each year in line with the Consumer Price Index” (Foreign Minister Julie Bishop, January 2014)

The Treasurer revealed foreign aid would be frozen, leading to a massive $7.6 billion cut over next 5 years.
Indigenous affairs


"The Coalition will continue the current level of funding expended on Closing the Gap activities." (Coalition policy document, September 2013)

Tuesday's budget cut $500 million through the consolidation of 150 programs.
Environment


‘‘ARENA will have over $2.5 billion in funds to manage." (Industry Minister Ian Macfarlane, November 2013)

The ARENA (the Australian Reneweable Energy Agency) has been axed.


"The Coalition will promote the use of solar energy by Australian families and households. It will ensure at least one million additional solar homes or community centres by 2020." (Greg Hunt, December 2011)



Read more: Then and now: the Abbott government's broken promises (http://www.smh.com.au/business/federal-budget/then-and-now-the-abbott-governments-broken-promises-20140514-zrcfr.html#ixzz39kY2X8cL)



others are keeping a more complete list

Broken Promises | PhonyTonyAbbott (http://www.phonytonyabbott.com/content/broken-promises)

[Chucaro]

That hardly sweems to be the case right now. The Government took their plans to the Australian people, were elected on that basis and now it is the Senate who are obstructing their agenda.

Nice to see that the blame is now being placed in the right area though.:D

The government took a fraction of their plans to the Australian people and changed them once in power.
The senate was elected on the basis to stop the government act in an undesirable way.
Promises have been broken, draconian laws are intended to be introduce.
The people are responding in the polls.
People have voted to stop the votes but not to imprison children to the point that affect their mental health.
If you believe that the Australian people approve the budget, then there is no point to debate the issue with you.

[nugge t]

Yep. I am sure the reasons and debate would fill another 5 threads especially the debate over "cuts". To me a cut is to lower funding, not to lower an unrealistic promise that was made but never implemented by a predecessor but I will certainly acknowledge they have changed their minds in some areas.

Having said that, they also said they would remove the carbon tax and the mining tax and introduce their PPLS. There was no misunderstanding about what they wanted to do.

The Senate however, has been far from making sure that they would do what they said they would do in that regard.

[ramblingboy42]

Inc...isn't your post #58 freshly quoted from the Sydney Morning Herald?

[incisor]

Inc...isn't your post #58 freshly quoted from the Sydney Morning Herald?

yep, thats why it has the read more attribution link to the rest of the article under it...

dont have time to type it all myself this morning.. am off to do a bank job at north lakes shortly...

hope they all enjoy my flu...

[PhilipA]

“...no cuts to the ABC or SBS.” (Tony Abbott,
September 2013)

Treasurer Joe Hockey announced $43.5 million
in cuts over four years in Tuesday's budget.

Er Inc AFAIR this cut refers to the overseas broadcasting network and surely you as a computer professional would agree that it is an anachronism, in these days of the Internet.

Gee I was surprised at how quickly the ISPs decided that keeping metadata would cost just SO much. Seeing that Coles seem magically to be able to know what I bought 6 months ago and offer me targetted specials . I wonder if they are just clairvoyant.
Regards Philip A

[nugge t]

The government took a fraction of their plans to the Australian people and changed them once in power.
The senate was elected on the basis to stop the government act in an undesirable way.
Promises have been broken, draconian laws are intended to be introduce.
The people are responding in the polls.
People have voted to stop the votes but not to imprison children to the point that affect their mental health.
If you believe that the Australian people approve the budget, then there is no point to debate the issue with you.


Sorry I am getting a bit confused here. Is the Senate supposed to make sure the Government does

"what they say they are going to do is what they do.."

OR

"stop the government act in an undesirable way."

The problem would appear to be that the Government is largely trying to do what it said but the Senate has suddenly decided that it is undesirable.

This is especially applicable to the Carbon Tax, Mining Tax, Stopping the boats and the PPLS.

I must agree that the best thing that could be done right now is if "People have voted to stop the votes "

Draconian laws in your view. To other an important aid to stopping home-grown terrorists. It is easy for you living in Tassie as no home grown terrorist is going to explode a bomb at an event there because they will be knocking off 3/4's of their own family Joke joyce. Mods feel free to delete but I couldn't help myself...

You know that we are never going to agree on the things you have listed and whilst they are your views, I personally believe you are not representative of the majority view. I am amazed at the shrill over 600 odd children in detention now and the relative quiet when there were over 2,000 in detention.
Sorry, can you point out where I made reference to the budget?

[incisor]

Having said that, they also said they would remove the carbon tax and the mining tax and introduce their PPLS. There was no misunderstanding about what they wanted to do.

they have themselves bauked at the ppls by all accounts and are going to do it next year...

to me, they are too busy running witch hunts to make the other mob look worse, to get their own house it order it seems after the fiasco that was this week...

brandis has had an absolute shocker, abetz, well what can you say.... pyne running round like a headless chook...

nah.... wouldnt miss it for quids

the last lot were shockers, but this lot are making them look good this week...

[nugge t]

all in the personal perspective. I would agree that Brandis had a shocker, Abetz I haven't followed and Pyne I reckon is doing great. Thought he handled the hostile ABC interview really well.

Shorten looks more and more like a dill every time he opens his mouth and I would have thought the witch hunt ... if you are referring to the Royal Commiss into Unions... it is bringing to light more than enough things of concern from both a union and company ( Toll ) perspective to be more than justified.

Inc., isn't this all getting a bit political??

[incisor]

all in the personal perspective. I would agree that Brandis had a shocker, Abetz I haven't followed and Pyne I reckon is doing great. Thought he handled the hostile ABC interview really well.

Shorten looks more and more like a dill every time he opens his mouth and I would have thought the witch hunt ... if you are referring to the Royal Commiss into Unions... it is bringing to light more than enough things of concern from both a union and company ( Toll ) perspective to be more than justified.

Inc., isn't this all getting a bit political??

current affairs i thought... but my mod team tend to differ and pull me in to line when they want to..

i didn't say the witch hunts were all bad.... i said they were concentrating on them too much...

speaking of icac i see it is starting to reach into the federal ranks.... should be interesting...

i am no fan of shorten so i can agree with you very easily :p

[rocmic]

Very simply a majority vote of approximately 53.5% gives the winner a right to form government. The other 46.5% of a population deserve to have their voices heard as well. This is a proposition that is well known in the current government, as the current Prime Minister wrote after the 2007 election:

"The elected opposition is no less entitled than the elected government to exercise judgement and to try to keep its election commitments."

Cheers
Mike

[nugge t]

speaking of icac i see it is starting to reach into the federal ranks.... should be interesting...


we weren't :D but I have no problem with guys getting booted if they have done the wrong thing whether at Federal or State level. That is what should happen.

Unfortunately on the other side they defend people such as Thompson, Williamson, Obeid, the AWU, CFMEU to the death on ideological grounds as far as I can see.

[incisor]

Unfortunately on the other side they defend people such as Thompson, Williamson, Obeid, the AWU, CFMEU to the death on ideological grounds as far as I can see.

some may, not all....

but anyway, i have work to do...

[Chucaro]

And I guess that we have to finish the political debate (which I enjoying) because the risk of the thread be deleted. :(

[Chucaro]

Back to the topic about terror and laws, this could happen here:

Barack Obama’s Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/08/05/watch-commander/)

Quote:
Of the 680,000 people caught up in the government’s Terrorist Screening Database—a watchlist of “known or suspected terrorists” that is shared with local law enforcement agencies, private contractors, and foreign governments—more than 40 percent are described by the government as having “no recognized terrorist group affiliation.” That category—280,000 people—dwarfs the number of watchlisted people suspected of ties to al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah combined.

[DiscoMick]

We know asylum seekers aren't terrorists because when they're investigated about 90% are found to be genuine refugees and the others are sent home.
Why would terrorists risk their lives on a leaky boat to come here when they can just fly in on a tourist visa? If you want to see potential terrorists, go to an airport, not a port.


It appears the government ministers can't even agree on what they're talking about. George 'Everyone has the right to be a bigot' Brandis has made a fool of himself yet again, Abbott got tied in knots trying to explain what Brandis meant and Turnbull is shouting at them behind the scenes to stop being complete tools. They've had to call in some experts to try to figure out what they mean. What a mess! You wouldn't let these people run a sausage stand at Bunnings.
Coalition calls in experts to help end data retention policy confusion | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/coalition-calls-experts-data-retention-policy-confusion)

[nugge t]

We know asylum seekers aren't terrorists because when they're investigated about 90% are found to be genuine refugees and the others are sent home.


Totally agree that asylum seekers are unlikely to be terrorist but that doen't make them genuine asylum seekers either.

The 90% was under the previous Government where everyone was deemed genuine, fleeing persecution, raped, pillaged, no finger nails, burn marks on scortums and lips sewn.

The number has reduced from what I ahve read and a far greater number are returning to where they came to which puts the 90% into the perspective it deserves.

[frantic]

we weren't :D but I have no problem with guys getting booted if they have done the wrong thing whether at Federal or State level. That is what should happen.

Unfortunately on the other side they defend people such as Thompson, Williamson, Obeid, the AWU, CFMEU to the death on ideological grounds as far as I can see.

If a person commits fraud, charge them, problem is both sides are in bed with Obeid, just one seemed to get away with it.
From your favourite news source as well!
ICAC inquiry: Eddie Obeid’s Vaile of mining secrecy is revealed | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/icac-inquiry-eddie-obeids-vaile-of-mining-secrecy-is-revealed/story-fncynjr2-1226883077034)

Former Nsw liberal president and federal party treasurer also working for Obeid company, among others, from your other favourite source;)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/liberals-collateral-damage-in-anticorruption-war/story-e6frg75f-1226895315178

[PhilipA]

Originally Posted by DiscoMick https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/768.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/203140-new-terror-laws-others-post2200586.html#post2200586)


We know asylum seekers aren't
terrorists because when they're investigated about 90% are found to be genuine
refugees and the others are sent home

AND they were super clever tribunals I can tell you as they did this without even knowing who they were!!!!1
Witness captain Amad and his daughter etc etc .
Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

I wonder how our Attorney General George Brandis would react if his entire email and telephone log was published, showing every person he spoke to or had emails with, the time and where the people were when it happened? That's the equivalent of what he is proposing for the rest of us. Big Brother running wild, if you ask me.


http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/data-retention-lawyers-on-the-wire,6752

[nugge t]

lots of tut tutting but no alternatives and as I stated in an earlier post with the AFL and NRL finals coming up, lets hope this thread doesn't come back to haunt.

[Tank]

Appears to me that this is aimed at homegrown terrorists.

The Bali bombers were homegrown terrorists many of whom, from what I have read, did stints in Afghanastan and then returned to Indonesia.

88 Australians died. With AFL and NFL Grand finals just around the corner I hope this thread doesn't back to haunt because some are worried about their "rights".
I can't believe you said that "Quote: because some are worried about their "rights".
Well for your info "our rights" were given to us by Australians who fought and died for "our rights".
Try living in a country that doesn't have the "Rights" that we as Australians take for granted, in many countries that have no "rights" for their citizens, you and I would be taken out and shot for what we are saying here.
China for instance, ask the women in countries under the rule of repressive religious zealots, Iran and Iraq to name a few.
Our rights were hard fought for and should be guarded carefully, not dismissed because the govt. you seem to support comes up with some Fascist law that will affect OUR Rights to lead our lives as free people, under the guise of protecting us from terrorism.
If any Government was serious about protecting our country they should break off relations with any country that has terrorist based there or supports them. That won't happen because the people that run this country would lose money, the bottom line is the be all end all.
Any Australian citizen that leaves this country to train and fight with a recognised terrorist org. should have their passports cancelled along with their citizenship and their assets seized, that would make them realise that they have never had it so good.
Nugget you need to apologise to every Australian servicemen living and dead who fought to maintain OUR RIGHTS and allows us to enjoy our rights, Regards Frank.

[nugge t]

I would hope that our rights extend to being protected from home grown terrorist attack which I am sure every service person would readily fight for.


It seems to me that many are more worried about what the PROPOSED changes MAY do in an irrational and almost hysterical, in my opinion, manner, rather than look at the extra protection it may afford all Australians from being potentially blown up at a footy match.


There was an excellent interview on today with the head of ASIO and deputy of the AFP which was extremely informative and debunked so much of the uninformed comment on here. You might want to take the time of having a look at it. Of course I am sure you would see them as part of the conspiracy though.


No shrill would be complete without the cry of Fascist laws and corrupt Government who's members apparently have huge commercial holdings in places like Afghanistan, Iran and Sudan and the root of all evil....money...that evil evil commodity which enable so many to enjoy their "rights".


I could not agree more that those who fight for terrorist organisations should suffer that way, and worse but even there the Fascist laws you claim protect them. Look at David Hicks being turned into an angel and the vitriol levelled at the Government when they tried to do far less than you suggest.


I actually take great offensive at your suggestion that I am desecrating the memory of fallen service personnel (woman fought as well you know). What we are debating is where the "rights" line should be drawn, not if there should or should not be "rights" and that is exactly what they fought for. Not to defend some imaginary line that you personally decree.

[Chucaro]

Why the government is coming with these proposals when it appears that going by the NASA leaks they already are doing it?

How Secret Partners Expand NSA’s Surveillance Dragnet (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/06/18/nsa-surveillance-secret-cable-partners-revealed-rampart-a/)

Documentation: The Snowden files (http://www.information.dk/databloggen/501278)

It appears that "Team England" like to play in the same league :angel:

Hacking Online Polls and Other Ways British Spies Seek to Control the Internet (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/14/manipulating-online-polls-ways-british-spies-seek-control-internet/)

[kadine94]

"Aussie" terrorists fighting in the middle east:confused:Aussie comes from the heart,not from a passport.Just because a dog is born in a stable,doesnt make it a horse:mad:

[Chucaro]

"Aussie" terrorists fighting in the middle east:confused:Aussie comes from the heart,not from a passport.Just because a dog is born in a stable,doesnt make it a horse:mad:

Mate, low life, criminals, etc are from all nationalities, it is the sad part in humans ;)

[Greatsouthernland]

Qwerty :bangin:

[bob10]

Just to get everyone on the same page as to the Senate, Bob


About the Senate – Parliament of Australia (http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/About_the_Senate)

[bob10]

This is an emotive subject, Isn't it. Australians have been going overseas as individuals to fight for different causes since 1916, & perhaps even before. Two I can think of is the Irish uprising of 1916, and the Spanish civil War , 1936. Australian mercenaries have fought in Africa. You could say the first two were for political reasons, the last ,financial gain. What makes this time different is there is a groundswell of fear, fear of a religious war, a jihad. Fear of terrorism. How much of this fear is valid, is hard to determine. It doesn't help that mainstream Muslim Clerics aren't seen to be publicly denouncing the radicals. Perhaps they are, I haven't seen it.


We have to be careful laws that are passed don't marginalise the Muslim community. That would be a sure way to produce more zealots. But we must protect our sovereignty, and our way of life. There are no amount of radicals on both sides stirring the pot. We must have clear heads, from all of our lawmakers , and full co-operation from all levels of Australian society, but most of all, mainstream Australia must bring the Muslim community along with us, and the Muslim community must demonstrate through their religious leaders, that peaceful co-existence is the only way to go.


We in Australia have a bad track record in dealing with minorities, or people who are "different" . From the aboriginal people, to the race riots on the goldfields against the Chinese. Now is the time to demonstrate we have matured as a Nation, and that we have the political will to solve this problem, without playing politics. Should we have stronger powers for our agencies.? I'm not sure. But if we do, the laws passed must be framed in such a way, to not marginalise any group in our society. And radical groups, who may harm our citizens, must be under surveillance. Who ever they may be.


I cant help feeling we are living in interesting times. Bob

[ramblingboy42]

Bob, your words are good.

I don't know how much things have really changed , or if we are now made so aware of everything through social media....the "look at me" syndrome.

In the late 70's/early 80's I was offered the opportunity to become a "professional" soldier.

Had I accepted that offer , no one would have known....or really cared for that matter.

Now it's public information.

I don't know how many surveillance agencies we have in Australia , but if their role in rooting out bad apples is effective , then I'm all for using their capabilities to do that job.

[PhilipA]

We have to be careful laws that are passed don't marginalise the Muslim
community.

Mate they deliberately marginalise themselves by their exclusivity and attitudes.
Islam in general has no respect for civil laws. In their opinion Sharia is the only valid legal system.

The beginning of Islamic migration from Lebanon was a mistake as it was intended that all immigrants were to be Christian, but then Immigration could no find enough, so Moslems were selected to make up quotas.

The genie is now out of the bottle.

I don't know how you put it back in as Moslems have no intention to integrate into civil society and will remain exclusive . This is happening now in France, Holland , and Sweden most notably.
Regards Philip A

[bob10]

Mate they deliberately marginalise themselves by their exclusivity and attitudes.
Islam in general has no respect for civil laws. In their opinion Sharia is the only valid legal system.

The beginning of Islamic migration from Lebanon was a mistake as it was intended that all immigrants were to be Christian, but then Immigration could no find enough, so Moslems were selected to make up quotas.

The genie is now out of the bottle.

I don't know how you put it back in as Moslems have no intention to integrate into civil society and will remain exclusive . This is happening now in France, Holland , and Sweden most notably.
Regards Philip A


By your own words you have condemned yourself. First by the word "they". Then by suggesting Moslems were selected to make up quotas. Then to say "they" will remain exclusive. [ for Moslems insert Jews, Italians, Greeks , Kiwis :angel:]This is a problem, we, as a Nation, must confront. United. Christian, Moslem, bush calathumpion. We can not move on as a Nation until we do. There are as many dangerous radicals on the Christian side, as the Moslem. Common sense has to prevail now. From all sides. Bob

[Greatsouthernland]

All well and good, but this is where the mainstream is at in its scale of importance- doesn't look like community religious tolerance and harmony is on the agenda:( :angel:

Current House of reps Inquiries -

Standing Committee of Privileges and Members' Interests
Inquiry into whether the former Member for Dobell deliberately misled the House
Standing Committee on Agriculture and Industry
Country of Origin Food Labelling
Standing Committee on Economics
Foreign investment in residential real estate
Review of the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority Annual Report 2013
Review of the Reserve Bank Annual Report 2013
Standing Committee on Education and Employment
Inquiry into the role of Technical and Further Education system and its operation
Standing Committee on Health
Skin cancer in Australia
Standing Committee on Indigenous Affairs
The harmful use of alcohol in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities
Standing Committee on Infrastructure and Communications
High Speed Rail Planning Authority Bill 2013
Infrastructure Planning and Procurement
Inquiry into the use of subsection 313(3) of the Telecommunications Act 1997 by government agencies to disrupt the operation of illegal online services
Standing Committee on Procedure
Inquiry into the maintenance of the Standing and Sessional Orders
Inquiry into the use of electronic devices in the House of Representatives Chamber and Federation Chamber
Standing Committee on Social Policy and Legal Affairs
Parliamentary Inquiry into the Child Support Program
Standing Committee on Tax and Revenue
2013 Annual Report of the Australian Taxation Office
Inquiry into Tax Disputes
Standing Committee on the Environment
Inquiry into streamlining environmental regulation, 'green tape', and one stop shops

and...

Current Senate Inquiries

Community Affairs Legislation Committee
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Amendment (A Stronger Land Account) Bill 2014
Business Services Wage Assessment Tool Payment Scheme Bill 2014 and Business Services Wage Assessment Tool Payment Scheme (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2014
National Health Amendment (Pharmaceutical Benefits) Bill 2014
Private Health Insurance Amendment (GP Services) Bill 2014
Social Security Legislation Amendment (Stronger Penalties for Serious Failures) Bill 2014
Social Services and Other Legislation Amendment (2014 Budget Measures No. 1) Bill 2014 and Social Services and Other Legislation Amendment (2014 Budget Measures No. 2) Bill 2014
Community Affairs References Committee
Extent of income inequality in Australia
Grandparents who take primary responsibility for raising their grandchildren
Out of home care
Out-of-pocket costs in Australian healthcare
Prevalence of different types of speech, language and communication disorders and speech pathology services in Australia
Economics Legislation Committee
Australian Renewable Energy Agency (Repeal) Bill 2014
Competition and Consumer Amendment (Misuse of Market Power) Bill 2014
Reserve Bank Amendment (Australian Reconstruction and Development Board) Bill 2013
Economics References Committee
Affordable housing
Australia's Innovation System
Forestry managed investment schemes
Future of Australia’s naval shipbuilding industry
Need for a national approach to retail leasing arrangements
Education and Employment Legislation Committee
Family Assistance Legislation Amendment (Child Care Measures) Bill (No. 2) 2014
Environment and Communications Legislation Committee
Performance, importance and role of Australia Post in Australian communities and its operations in relation to licensed post offices
Environment and Communications References Committee
Australia's environment
Environmental Biosecurity
Great Barrier Reef
National Landcare Program
Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee
Department of Parliamentary Services
Finance and Public Administration References Committee
Domestic violence in Australia
Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee
Implementation of the Defence Trade Controls Legislation
Trade and Foreign Investment (Protecting the Public Interest) Bill 2014
Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee
Australia’s future activities and responsibilities in the Southern Ocean and Antarctic waters
Government response to the Defence Abuse Response Taskforce (DART)
Korea-Australia Free Trade Agreement
Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee
Australian Citizenship Amendment (Intercountry Adoption) Bill 2014
Classification (Publications, Films and Computer Games) Amendment (Classification Tools and Other Measures) Bill 2014
Crimes Legislation Amendment (Psychoactive Substances and Other Measures) Bill 2014 [Provisions]
Criminal Code Amendment (Harming Australians) Bill 2013
Criminal Code Amendment (Misrepresentation of Age to a Minor) Bill 2013
Exposure draft of the Medical Services (Dying with Dignity) Bill 2014
Migration Amendment (Protecting Babies Born in Australia) Bill 2014
Migration Amendment (Protection and Other Measures) Bill 2014
Migration Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) 2014 [Provisions]
Recognition of Foreign Marriages Bill 2014
Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee
Comprehensive revision of the Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Act 1979
Incident at the Manus Island Detention Centre from 16 February to 18 February 2014
The ability of Australian law enforcement authorities to eliminate gun-related violence in the community
Work undertaken by the Australian Federal Police's Oil for Food Taskforce
Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee
Australian grain networks
Industry structures and systems governing levies on grass-fed cattle
Role of public transport in delivering productivity outcomes
The current requirements for labelling of seafood and seafood products
Select Committee into the Abbott Government’s Budget Cuts
Abbott Governments Budget Cuts
Select Committee on Health
Health
Select Committee on the National Broadband Network
National Broadband Network
Standing Committee of Privileges
Use of CCTV material in Parliament House

[Greatsouthernland]

But wait :o

Submissions closing soon...LOOK :eek: 15th August - The Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security resolved to inquire into and report on the Review of the listing of Boko Haram as a terrorist organisation

Section 102.1A of the Criminal Code Act 1995 provides that the Committee may review a regulation which lists an organisation as a terrorist organisation and report its comments and recommendations to each House of the Parliament before the end of the applicable disallowance period for the House. The disallowance period is 15 sitting days from the day the regulation is tabled.



All Senate, House and Joint Committee inquiries with public summission deadlines ending in the next two weeks. Ordered by closing date.

12 August 2014
Environment and Communications References Committee
Environmental Biosecurity (Senate)
15 August 2014
Joint Standing Committee on Treaties
Treaties tabled on 14 and 15 July 2014 (Joint)

Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee
The ability of Australian law enforcement authorities to eliminate gun-related violence in the community (Senate)

Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security
Review of the listing of Boko Haram as a terrorist organisation (Joint)
18 August 2014
Joint Committee of Public Accounts and Audit
Inquiry into the Parliamentary Budget Office (Joint)
20 August 2014
Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works
AIR 6000 Phase 2A/B New Air Combat Capability Facilities Project (Joint)
21 August 2014
Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee
Exposure draft of the Medical Services (Dying with Dignity) Bill 2014 (Senate)
22 August 2014
Community Affairs References Committee
Extent of income inequality in Australia (Senate)

Select Committee into the Abbott Government’s Budget Cuts
Abbott Governments Budget Cuts (Senate)

Standing Committee on Infrastructure and Communications
Inquiry into the use of subsection 313(3) of the Telecommunications Act 1997 by government agencies to disrupt the operation of illegal online services (House)

[ramblingboy42]

jeez...great southern land , now we know what your interests are besides Land Rovers...

[PhilipA]

By your own words you have condemned yourself. First by the word "they". Then
by suggesting Moslems were selected to make up quotas. Then to say "they" will
remain exclusive.

Well Bob, I just wanted to remain grammatically correct.
I am surprised that you make a personal attack without knowing my experience with Islam, living in Islamic countries etc, and contact with the Islamic community.
I am not given to making racist rants, I post based on history and my experience. The facts I have noted about other countries' experience are well known. Perhaps you should do some reading on "no go" areas in Paris, the recent riots in Stockholm, and the assassination of the Dutch parliamentarian.

These were the responsibility of Moslems, not all those other groups which you single out. One hardly hears of Christian terrorists or Buddhist terrorists . I wonder why.
We now have Moslems in Australia demanding the reinstatement of Mike Carlton, even though his transgressions were not directly associated with anti semitism, more his abusive responses to those who disagrreed with him. But IMHO the Moslem community believe he is a valuable ally in their denigration of Israel.
Perhaps you should read this article in todays Australian.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/rise-of-antisemitism-from-this-war-is-no-accident/story-e6frg6zo-1227019751302




by suggesting Moslems were selected to make up quotas. Then to say "they"
will

Well Bob , you see I wasn't "suggesting" , the fact is "I know" because I was living in the Middle east for a couple of years and I have spoken directly to the people who were tasked with filling the quotas.

Regards Philip A

[ramblingboy42]

Fair crack of the whip Philip A....

where has Bob made a "personal attack" on you?

he responded to your comments....

[Greatsouthernland]

jeez...great southern land , now we know what your interests are besides Land Rovers...

Not until now :D I just followed Bobs link :cool: There's a lot of crap flung at the senate by SMALL interest groups, it will be hard to ever get progress through that system of government. Don't get me wrong, it's a good principle in a perfect world, but without picking on particular small interest groups per se, I could see how the senate becomes a method to control the current government and derail any initiative that was the reason they were voted in :( particularly the proportion of senators to the population of their states, which reminds me that the state system and federal government will never work together efficiently :(

[PhilipA]

By your own words you have condemned yourself





Fair crack of the whip Philip A....

where has Bob made a "personal attack" on you?

he
responded to your comments....



Condemned myself? to what? I think "the reasonable man " would gain the impression that the writer was stating that the person referred to (you) was either a bigot, or racist by then extending the reply to cover many other racial groups.
Why state a disagreement in those terms if not to cause offence ?

Isn't that personal?

I would have no problem if the writer claimed that he had different experience to that and then I would seek to compare levels of experience living in Islamic countries etc. and dealing with Moslems .

We could compare Islamic CVs . LOL I suspect I would have more extensive qualifications , but surprises are always possible.


Regards Philip A

[85 county]

we are not alone

No Passports Required to Use Public Wi-Fi, Moscow City Hall Says | News | The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/no-passports-required-to-use-public-wi-fi-moscow-city-hall-says/504806.html)

[JDNSW]

...... particularly the proportion of senators to the population of their states,..... :(

Despite the lack of relation of number of senators to the size of the 'electorate', the Senate has always been a much closer representation of the will of the electorate than has the House of Representatives.

In this sense it is more democratic than the House, which is elected by single member electorates, so that there is often little relation between the proportion of seats held and the proportion of votes gained.

John

[Greatsouthernland]

Despite the lack of relation of number of senators to the size of the 'electorate', the Senate has always been a much closer representation of the will of the electorate than has the House of Representatives.

In this sense it is more democratic than the House, which is elected by single member electorates, so that there is often little relation between the proportion of seats held and the proportion of votes gained.

John

I agree with you John. That's why I wrote "don't get me wrong, it's good in principle...". I didn't even want to mention the HOR, it's a shambles and clearly why the senate needs to be there.

Makes you wonder how a government can appeal for your vote on a specific agenda, knowing full well that it isn't even within their ability to implement it...

Realistically what you need to achieve is bombard the senators with your dogma if you want to get anything changed to suit your agenda....

So the only way to achieve that would be to own a TV station, some radio stations, web sites, and just allow your view on things and what needs to be done to change it. That way the senators are required to include those views in their deliberation and the public are brainwashed (or distracted) to think and vote the same way.

But WHO has enough MONEY to create that influence or WHO owns such an all encompassing suite of media? It's just beyond the ability of anyone to have that much influence...:eek: hang on a minute :eek2: what have I discovered :ninja:

[bob10]

These were the responsibility of Moslems, not all those other groups which you single out. One hardly hears of Christian terrorists or Buddhist terrorists . I wonder why

Regards Philip A


Have to disagree. My post wasn't meant as a personal attack. Not every Moslem is a terrorist. Not every terrorist is a Moslem. And the sky isn't falling, yet. Living in the Middle East doesn't mean you have an unbiased view of the World. It all depends whose bending your ear .;)

The not so Christian Christians;
In tragic twist, Christian terror groups attack African Muslims | Communities Digital News (http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/in-tragic-twist-anti-balaka-christian-terror-groups-attack-african-muslims-9691/)


The anti Balaka;
BBC News - Central African Republic convoy of terror (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26274198)

combination of Buddism, & Hinduism
Aum Shinrikyo - Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/japan/aum-shinrikyo/p9238)


Extremist fundamentalist terrorist Buddhists murdering Muslims of Myanmar (Burma) - YouTube

Hindu terrorism;
http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/joe/reuben.html


There is much more if you wish to look. Doesn't excuse Islamic terrorists, of course. As I said, there are radicals on both sides of the fence, stirring up trouble. They should all pull there heads in, & let the moderates from both sides work together to find a solution. BTW, how many Australian Moslems do you know? Bob

[PhilipA]

Well not many, but I have met and conversed with Sheikh Halali and Kayser Trad and organised Halal certification of a major food producer through Mohammed El Moueli.

I have also been invited to speak and spoken at an Islamic conference in Sydney of "How to improve Moslem integration into Australian society."

I have also gained an appreciation of Islam through living in Malaysia for 3 years and Saudi Arabia for 2 years and travelling extensively in Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Syria, Turkey, and Jordan.

Of course I agree with the proposition that not all Moslems are terrorists but boy the percentage is greater. While you have Madrassas controlled by zealots spruiking death to infidels as we are seeing in Iraq at the moment , things will not change.

My experience suggests several things.
1 Moslems will never give up on demanding Sharia because it is a fundamental part of Islam.
2 The vile anti infidel teachings of radicals are not inhibited by Islamic leadership anywhere and there will always be a hard core of disaffected youth willing to follow the call. The internet has enable the most extreme "crazy" people to widely disseminate their hate messages.
3 The Sunni Shiite schism will ensure that there will be constant wars between them with Christians, Buddists and others caught in the middle..

I must say I have often been astounded at the beliefs of Moslems that I considered to be rational intelligent people to that point. I can recall speaking to an Egyptian bloke I knew who held down a senior position at UQ and was previously a pilot. We were relaxing at St Katherines with some other Egyptians smoking Hubble bubbles.

He told me straight faced ( to affirmative nods by his mates) that the Bali Bombing was a CIA plot designed to malign Islam as he had read this on an Islamic site. After I picked my jaw up I considered there was no point in trying to debate the case as the bombers were already on trial and his belief was not going to change.

And this is the part of the problem. I jokingly tell friends it must be that in the Madrassas their head is so full up after remembering the Koran off by heart , there is no room for intelligence.

Of course there are many Christian and other conspiracy theorists , some maybe on this forum .LOL., but it is chilling when Moslems just deny they had anything to do with atrocities such as the Bali bombing and 9/11.

Regards Philip A

[Chucaro]

How David Lowe see it, and IMO he is spot on :D

http://www.afr.com/rw/2009-2014/AFR/2014/08/10/Photos/c6be57c2-206e-11e4-987a-d7a312e60659_gallery11aug14--736x535.jpg

[incisor]

have to say in my experience that phillipa has 100% hit the nail on the head....

[Pickles2]

Definitely.
Pickles.

[frantic]

Have to disagree. My post wasn't meant as a personal attack. Not every Moslem is a terrorist. Not every terrorist is a Moslem. And the sky isn't falling, yet. Living in the Middle East doesn't mean you have an unbiased view of the World. It all depends whose bending your ear .;)

The not so Christian Christians;
In tragic twist, Christian terror groups attack African Muslims | Communities Digital News (http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/in-tragic-twist-anti-balaka-christian-terror-groups-attack-african-muslims-9691/)


The anti Balaka;
BBC News - Central African Republic convoy of terror (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26274198)

combination of Buddism, & Hinduism
Aum Shinrikyo - Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/japan/aum-shinrikyo/p9238)


Extremist fundamentalist terrorist Buddhists murdering Muslims of Myanmar (Burma) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/oiT3xZ8HGHQ)

Hindu terrorism;
http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/joe/reuben.html


There is much more if you wish to look. Doesn't excuse Islamic terrorists, of course. As I said, there are radicals on both sides of the fence, stirring up trouble. They should all pull there heads in, & let the moderates from both sides work together to find a solution. BTW, how many Australian Moslems do you know? Bob
Bob all these (first 2 are same story, different sources)seem to be a response to Islamic terrorist attacks of some sort. One of them has 4 links at the bottom, 3 of which go to guess what, more Islamic terrorist stories. Would you have an anti balaka Christian group, of there was no balaka Muslim group in the first place?
Etc

[bob10]

Well not many, but I have met and conversed with Sheikh Halali and Kayser Trad and organised Halal certification of a major food producer through Mohammed El Moueli.

I have also been invited to speak and spoken at an Islamic conference in Sydney of "How to improve Moslem integration into Australian society."

I have also gained an appreciation of Islam through living in Malaysia for 3 years and Saudi Arabia for 2 years and travelling extensively in Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Syria, Turkey, and Jordan.

Of course I agree with the proposition that not all Moslems are terrorists but boy the percentage is greater. While you have Madrassas controlled by zealots spruiking death to infidels as we are seeing in Iraq at the moment , things will not change.

My experience suggests several things.
1 Moslems will never give up on demanding Sharia because it is a fundamental part of Islam.
2 The vile anti infidel teachings of radicals are not inhibited by Islamic leadership anywhere and there will always be a hard core of disaffected youth willing to follow the call. The internet has enable the most extreme "crazy" people to widely disseminate their hate messages.
3 The Sunni Shiite schism will ensure that there will be constant wars between them with Christians, Buddists and others caught in the middle..

I must say I have often been astounded at the beliefs of Moslems that I considered to be rational intelligent people to that point. I can recall speaking to an Egyptian bloke I knew who held down a senior position at UQ and was previously a pilot. We were relaxing at St Katherines with some other Egyptians smoking Hubble bubbles.

He told me straight faced ( to affirmative nods by his mates) that the Bali Bombing was a CIA plot designed to malign Islam as he had read this on an Islamic site. After I picked my jaw up I considered there was no point in trying to debate the case as the bombers were already on trial and his belief was not going to change.

And this is the part of the problem. I jokingly tell friends it must be that in the Madrassas their head is so full up after remembering the Koran off by heart , there is no room for intelligence.

Of course there are many Christian and other conspiracy theorists , some maybe on this forum .LOL., but it is chilling when Moslems just deny they had anything to do with atrocities such as the Bali bombing and 9/11.

Regards Philip A


You do know I am talking about Australia. And our relationships with Moslems here. At the family level. Have you conversed with an ordinary Moslem family, in Australia, or even, do you have Moslem friends? Extremists from all sides are dangerous . None of the Moslems I know , agree with the Bali bombing, or 9.11. Here, away from the extremist jihadi influence, they can say that. Here, their woman can be educated. Here, they can practise their religion , as it was meant to be. Peaceful. Yes, there are radicals here, that's why we need a bi-lateral approach, between Australians & Moslems, to nip it in the bud, before it gets out of control. We don't need pseudo " experts " waxing on , just as ordinary Moslem families don't need radicals espousing Jihad, & " death to the infidels".


It seems reasonably obvious to me , The West is losing the Middle East. Only another commitment to go to War, to push ISiS back to obscurity, will establish Political stability. [ until next time ] I think they call that a Crusade. We shouldn't kid ourselves, this is a religious War. between Shia, & Sunni, over who will rule the Moslem World. Ironic , isn't it, that it was Christians who divided up the Middle East after WW1. Religion, the concept was probably fine, until Humans took control.


Peter Leahy has it fairly spot on. The best we can do is stop worrying about the Middle East, and the ideological War that will carry on there for many years, and just get our part of the World secure. And safe, for all Australians, of every religion. Bob


just a reminder of where this all started;


Palestine 1918 to 1948 (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/palestine_1918_to_1948.htm)

[bob10]

Bob all these (first 2 are same story, different sources)seem to be a response to Islamic terrorist attacks of some sort. One of them has 4 links at the bottom, 3 of which go to guess what, more Islamic terrorist stories. Would you have an anti balaka Christian group, of there was no balaka Muslim group in the first place?
Etc


I just put them up as an example, a throwaway line, if you will. What astounds me is, you seem to be making excuses for them. I can go deeper, if you want. But I don't see the point. Bob

[bob10]

Of course there are many Christian and other conspiracy theorists , some maybe on this forum .LOL., but it is chilling when Moslems just deny they had anything to do with atrocities such as the Bali bombing and 9/11.

Regards Philip A
Interesting thoughts on conspiracy theories;


Six really stupid 9/11 conspiracies debunked in about six seconds | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/six-really-stupid-911-conspiracies-debunked-in-about-six-seconds/story-fndir2ev-1226717737311)

[PhilipA]

You do know I am talking about Australia. And our relationships with Moslems
here. At the family level. Have you conversed with an ordinary Moslem family, in
Australia, or even, do you have Moslem friends? Extremists from all sides are
dangerous . None of the Moslems I know , agree with the Bali bombing, or 9.11.


You see Bob you are making assumptions again and talking about "you" not behaviour .
The people I posted about at St Katherines were mainly Australians.
I don't currently have any Moslem friends as I don't live in an area with any Moslems , however I would like to think that Mohammed and I were friends .
Your experience with your circle of friends is obviously different to mine, but have you any friends among the young and radicalised in Western Sydney?
Just as you accuse me of generalising, you also are generalising or should I say extrapolating from a small sample.
I think the real stuation is somewhere between our two experiences and I believe closer to my experience than yours.

My opinion is that the moslem leaders give lip service to Australian laws and react when they see that the actions of the radicals are starting to affect their communities. The latest trick of threatening a boycott of the SMH unless Mike Carlton is reinstated is really an indication of their hatred of Jews.
The fact that they would not appoint an Australian to be Imam of Lakemba Mosque but imported an Egyptian who was refused visas on character grounds for many years but wore the Labor government down is IMHO characteristic.

Also remember that by far the majority of Moslems in Australia are foreign born , or do you think they had a conversion to Australian thought when they arrived or just perhaps they may have retained their customs and thought from their home countries.

Of course there is no female circumcision in Australia is there, there are no multiple "marriages", there are no floggings to convert and atone for "sins", no forced underage marriages of 12-13 year old girls , and no armed "training camps" where young men expend thousands of rounds of ammunition to the extent that the land owner calls the cops.

The newspapers and courts just dreamed them up.

These AFAIR are specific to moslems and I cannot think of a parallel with other ethnic groups in Australia just to illustrate the hollowness of your assertion of who next? Maybe some Indians still retain their tradition of arranged marriages but not of 12-13 year old girls.

There are a couple of Islamic/Arabic sayings I picked up while living overseas which to me are characteristic.
The first- paraphrases as : The truth is a precious thing , not to be wasted on infidels.
The second- Brother against brother , cousin against cousin, family against the world.

Regards Philip A
Sorry I forgot something.
The complaints from the NSW police that the NSW moslem community rarely/never supply information to the police about crimes within the community or affecting outsiders. The extension of "family against the world"
Given enough time I am sure I could think up a few more Moslem "exclusives"
Or maybe here is another - You have to convert to Islam if you wish to marry a moslem. Infidel marriages are not permitted . I am not sure whether there have been any honour killings in Australia but they have happened in UK.

Or regarding Australian moslems, how about the bloke who dobbed in his wife to Lebanese authorities for "adultery" expecting her to be jailed, and her brothers said they hoped she "rotted in jail" or equivalent. Chaaaarming and So Australian.

[Chucaro]

Philip, perhaps the case is that there are far to many people that call themselves Moslems, Cristian, Jewish,etc but they really do not follow the principles of their religion.
It is wrong because put decent people in that religions in the same category
I guess that would be better call them fanatics with selective values to suit their agenda.

[Greatsouthernland]

I'm just going to put it out there...as these religions clearly can't coexist in peace (seems to hark back to the crusades).

Is it a pipe dream that we just abandon all religion? Punish those that wish to cling to any form?

If not, then it seems we have centuries of this crap to go until either one side wipes the other out, or some global calamity wipes us ALL out I.e. Asteroid impact :eek:

No offence, just can't see a solution that both sides will embrace and live happily with forever :(

[DiscoMick]

There are extremists in every group, but that desn't make all people in that group extremists. In some places, extreme Muslims are attacking moderate Muslims. In Burma, extreme Buddhists are attacking Muslims and Christians. In Africa, extreme Muslims and Christians are attacking each other. Often, its tribal more than religious.
I wouldn't dispute PhillipA point's, but just point out that some of these things are true of every first generation migrant group. For example, I know migrants who are afraid to contact the police because where they came from, the police were the enemy. I persuaded one family that they should report an attack on their son to the police, and went with them to the police station, where they were pleasantly surprised at the respectful way they were treated, for example.
Bottom line in, I think the surveillance proposals which Brandis announced and Turnbull is trying to moderate go too far, if they are what they seem to be. At the very least, ASIO should have to get a warrant to do them, so they have to convince a judge there is merit in monitoring that person. Most people are not terrorists, and the public has a right to privacy. If people are not breaking the law, then they should not be subjected to invasion of privacy. The onus of proof should be on the invaders to prove it is justified.
So far I haven't seen anything to suggest that the extensive powerswhich ASIO already has are not sufficient to deal with the monitoring of a small number of people.


Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[nugge t]

Couldn't agree more with PhillipA.

I would strongly suggest the book

Because they Hate by Bridgitte Gabriel.

This is the experience of a Christan girl growing up in Lebanon when they Muslims took over.

I think there is a lot Australians can take from the book about the mindset of less than extremist Muslims. In Lebanon the Christians believed that being Lebanese would hold everyone together. Sadly to their uter detriment, being Muslim ranked number #1 and the Christians were set upon.

My greatest concern is the homegrown nutter and I genuinely fear it is only a matter of time before one of them succeeds and it is the blind faith civil liberarians who will have to explain themselves.

[amtravic1]

I am worried for the future generations. If we continue to give in to the demands of minority groups such as muslims. As far as I am concerned it is just a matter of time before there is a terror attack on Australian soil by an Islamic extremist.
I have been following closely the "Muslim problem" for many years. The problem is you just can't tell who, when or if someone will become an extremist. Australia has been way to lenient and lapse with the immigration of people from Muslim countries.
Australians have been slow to react to Islam however there is a growing awareness that all is not good and there are many small groups that are now becoming organised to fight against Muslim demands. Note I said demands, because they always demand they get what they want from a host nation even when they are a minority. Unfortunately, I can see an ugly fight coming and until politicians have enough guts to wake up the truth instead of pandering to minorities, things are going to get worse in Australia.
I find it really interesting that there has been no Muslims coming out and speaking against the atrocities being performed in the name of Islam overseas. Nothing at all however when Israel fights back against rocket attacks in Gaza there has been massive protests by Muslims.
Time for the politically correct do gooders to wake up. The Terror Laws do not go far enough as far as I am concerned.

[bob10]

You see Bob you are making assumptions again and talking about "you" not behaviour .
The people I posted about at St Katherines were mainly Australians.
I don't currently have any Moslem friends as I don't live in an area with any Moslems , however I would like to think that Mohammed and I were friends .
Your experience with your circle of friends is obviously different to mine, but have you any friends among the young and radicalised in Western Sydney?

.


We could go backwards & forwards for ages. For every one of your points, I could give you a counterpoint to match. But good news stories don't sell papers. And , it is not difficult to seek out Moslem families to talk to, to find out what they really think , if you wanted to. I had to laugh at your point that Moslems don't co-operate with Police. Nor did the Irish, Italians , and any number of ethnic groups. I remember the Irish were demonised as bomb throwing Fenians, murdering IRA, back in the day. You are probably too young to remember that.


I believe Australia may be at the cross roads. Start demonising the main stream Moslem community , because of the actions of a few, could just play into the hands of the radicals, and give the result these zealots want. This is interesting;
Q&A - Australian Muslims and Assimilation - YouTube


This definition could apply to zealots on either side of the debate, Bob


Full Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obstinate) or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

[bob10]

This thread started about the new terror laws. I believe strengthened laws in the current situation are absolutely necessary. Australia needs to be right on top of radical groups who may harm our country, or people. Who ever they are. But Australian law makers must ensure they do not marginalise any ethnic groups in the process, because I believe this could deliver the worst result. Bob

[nugge t]

Full Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obstinate) or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

That pretty much sums up the off centre Muslim movements I would of thought.

Those groups are taught that if you are not a muslim you are an infidel and as such must be hated.

Bob I would differ with you on what WE need to do to embrace the Muslim community. They should be illustrating to main stream Australia what they are doing to deserve our trust, what they are doing to embrace the country they have come to and apparently embraced. Many have I am sure, but sorry, they have to embrace our country not try to convert it to what they came from.

If you think the moderates will be Aussie first, Muslim second, please read Because they Hate. When push comes to shove they will be Muslim.

Until the Muslim leaders come out denouncing what happens, they will not win popular support IMHO.

Equally however, we NEED their help to stop homegrown terrorists. If they shield them, we won't have to worry about climate change. THIS is the biggest social/security challenge for our nation in the next 10 to 20 years and if people believe I am being alarmist, please read the book I refered to earlier.

They extremists use our generosity, our civil liberty, our social security while they plot. Reports are that already 2 Australians have been suicide bombers overseas.

[Chucaro]

I have the impression that the authorities know who are the extremists including some religious leaders that promote the bad behavior.
The problem is political will to act where this individuals are because the parties do not want to loose their seat or possibilities of winning it. :mad:

[Chucaro]

Talking about extremists in Australia, this event shows that it "take two to tango" and how problem start. :(

Tensions between Australian Defence League and Muslim community reach violent new heights (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-21/anti-islam-hate-campaign-raises-tensions-to-violent-new-heights/5402526)

Quote:

A recent post from Mr Cerminara's Facebook account to his followers was even more threatening:

"I am calling for the end of Islam in our country and hopefully the world.

"If Muslims have to die then so be it. It is us against them."

[nugge t]

I have the impression that the authorities know who are the extremists including some religious leaders that promote the bad behavior.
The problem is political will to act where this individuals are because the parties do not want to loose their seat or possibilities of winning it. :mad:

Are you serious. The only people they upset are the civl liberty minority who are trying to protect them.

I am pretty sure most Australians would support the deportation of any extremist Muslim or KKK.

The real question is why have we let them in?

[bob10]

That pretty much sums up the off centre Muslim movements I would of thought.

Those groups are taught that if you are not a muslim you are an infidel and as such must be hated.

Bob I would differ with you on what WE need to do to embrace the Muslim community. They should be illustrating to main stream Australia what they are doing to deserve our trust, what they are doing to embrace the country they have come to and apparently embraced. Many have I am sure, but sorry, they have to embrace our country not try to convert it to what they came from.

If you think the moderates will be Aussie first, Muslim second, please read Because they Hate. When push comes to shove they will be Muslim.

Until the Muslim leaders come out denouncing what happens, they will not win popular support IMHO.

Equally however, we NEED their help to stop homegrown terrorists. If they shield them, we won't have to worry about climate change. THIS is the biggest social/security challenge for our nation in the next 10 to 20 years and if people believe I am being alarmist, please read the book I refered to earlier.

They extremists use our generosity, our civil liberty, our social security while they plot. Reports are that already 2 Australians have been suicide bombers overseas.




Nugget, we are on the same page. Almost. Just what do these immigrants have to do? wear cork hats, drink xxxx? :D I am bemused by the level of ignorance in this country as to how far many in the Moslem community have integrated. And, this is the biggest challenge this Nation has faced so far. If we get it right, Australia could be a template for the rest of the World. Get it wrong? Not worth thinking about, really. Bob


Comment: Changing our view of Muslim Australia | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/12/13/comment-changing-our-view-muslim-australia)


And some, at least, have a sense of humour


Salam cafe: Uncle Sam Goes 100% Aussie - YouTube

[Chucaro]

Are you serious. The only people they upset are the civl liberty minority who are trying to protect them.

I am pretty sure most Australians would support the deportation of any extremist Muslim or KKK.

The real question is why have we let them in?

Yes you are correct, most Australians support it but where this people operate the community that follow them have the voting power to protect them
Remember THIS (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/sydney-sheik-stirs-the-hatred/story-fndo317g-1226476066456) Australian fellow?

And more reading HERE (http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-many-faces-of-sheikh-feiz-20130708-2pky1.html)

And do not forget the one that arrived last week from the Philippines.

[nugge t]

Yes you are correct, most Australians support it but where this people operate the community that follow them have the voting power to protect them
Remember THIS (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/sydney-sheik-stirs-the-hatred/story-fndo317g-1226476066456) Australian fellow?

And more reading HERE (http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-many-faces-of-sheikh-feiz-20130708-2pky1.html)

And do not forget the one that arrived last week from the Philippines.

All interesting but not relavent to your original comment which said that

"The problem is political will to act where this individuals are because the parties do not want to loose their seat or possibilities of winning it."

I agree these guys are extremist etc, but you are saying that our political parties are not exposing them because they dont want to lose seats in parliament. I find it very hard to believe that is the case.

[nugge t]

Nugget, we are on the same page. Almost. Just what do these immigrants have to do? wear cork hats, drink xxxx? :D I am bemused by the level of ignorance in this country as to how far many in the Moslem community have integrated. And, this is the biggest challenge this Nation has faced so far. If we get it right, Australia could be a template for the rest of the World. Get it wrong? Not worth thinking about, really. Bob


Comment: Changing our view of Muslim Australia | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/12/13/comment-changing-our-view-muslim-australia)


And some, at least, have a sense of humour


Salam cafe: Uncle Sam Goes 100% Aussie - YouTube (http://youtu.be/iy7rqqZz9JI)

Bob it has taken a kid holding a severed head to get any level of condemnation from the Muslim community at large and even then some with tempering the comments becasue the bloke apparently had a hard childhood, drugs and hallucinations.....jeez how many times is that heard in court.

Sorry but when we pander to exclusive schools etc we are asking for trouble. How many Christian kids are in Muslim schools I wonder...reckon it would be the big donut.:D

[Chucaro]

All interesting but not relavent to your original comment which said that

"The problem is political will to act where this individuals are because the parties do not want to loose their seat or possibilities of winning it."

I agree these guys are extremist etc, but you are saying that our political parties are not exposing them because they dont want to lose seats in parliament. I find it very hard to believe that is the case.

But are not them (the politicians) the ones that can pass laws to remove these individuals from our society?

[bob10]

I've made my feelings known on the new laws, this thread is going no where. Back to the real World, Bob

[Chucaro]

I've made my feelings known on the new laws, this thread is going no where. Back to the real World, Bob

Bob, the sad bit it is that we are in "the real World" :(
We should talk about topics that are not have so much controversy.

Let me see, IMHO the Tasmania beer is heaps superior that any beer from the main land.
You see, for sure we will or agree with that :D

Ah! and the maroons do not hope in hell to win against the blue for many years to come.
That will settle all arguments :angel:

[frantic]

All interesting but not relavent to your original comment which said that

"The problem is political will to act where this individuals are because the parties do not want to loose their seat or possibilities of winning it."

I agree these guys are extremist etc, but you are saying that our political parties are not exposing them because they dont want to lose seats in parliament. I find it very hard to believe that is the case.

Actually your following comment is a perfect example.
The picture of the child holding the severed head is from the end of July. It took 2 weeks before the Govt released it.
Now why would they wait so long? Is there more impact releasing it at the height of the Israel Gaza issue, or to coincide with new policy on Australian born terrorists or metadata?

[ramblingboy42]

I have posted this before but it suits the current mood...

We are advised NOT to judge all muslims by the actions of a few lunatics.

But we ARE encouraged to judge all gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics.

nice balance...yes?....no?

[Chucaro]

I have posted this before but it suits the current mood...

We are advised NOT to judge all muslims by the actions of a few lunatics.

But we ARE encouraged to judge all gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics.

nice balance...yes?....no?

Again, for many it depends in which side of the fence they are ;)
What you call that?

[DiscoMick]

Actually, there have been plenty of moderate Muslims speaking against the extremists. One was on ABC TV News last night and said the father of that boy in Iraq, who he knew personally, was not a real Muslim at all, but just a terrorist or something similar from memory.
I imagine we all want the security services to be able to access the records of people who are of genuine interest to law enforcement. The issue is how to allow that without infringing on the rights of most people, who are not a threat.
I still think using the existing warrant process, used in so many other ways, is a reasonable precaution. If they want to access an individual's records they should have to persuade a judge, who should be independent, that there is a legitimate reason for concern.
Metadata debate: the need for warrants should be our guiding principle | Bret Walker | Comment is free | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/12/metadata-debate-the-need-for-warrants-should-be-our-guiding-principle)

[nugge t]

Again, for many it depends in which side of the fence they are ;)
What you call that?

Why does it always have to come down to how someone votes?

I am sure there are many people from all walks of life who come down on both sides of the gun issue and the same for the thread topic.

[Chucaro]

Why does it always have to come down to how someone votes?

I am sure there are many people from all walks of life who come down on both sides of the gun issue and the same for the thread topic.

Why always you think that it is about votes and politics ? :confused:

It is related to the views of the people affected by the issue or that have an opinion about it and the ones seating in the fence that do not have an opinion in either way ;)
Nothing to do with red or blues or political parties.

[nugge t]

mmmmm..maybe because of the way you wrote it and your previous claim about political parties not doing anything about the militants because it would affect their vote???

[Chucaro]

mmmmm..maybe because of the way you wrote it and your previous claim about political parties not doing anything about the militants because it would affect their vote???

Well, that is a complete different issue and I have put to you the reason why there can be the possibility of that be one of the reasons.
I have put an example of two people with influence in that communities and you have not made a comment of your views why these individuals are there or why the politicians have not put laws in place to stop their activities.

To be honest I am confused about why these individuals can be allowed to act like this.
I would like to have an answer about it.

[nugge t]

Well, that is a complete different issue and I have put to you the reason why there can be the possibility of that be one of the reasons.
I have put an example of two people with influence in that communities and you have not made a comment of your views why these individuals are there or why the politicians have not put laws in place to stop their activities.

To be honest I am confused about why these individuals can be allowed to act like this.
I would like to have an answer about it.

I don't think you are understanding what I have been saying.

I fully agree with your comments about these people and probably more:D

That is totally seperate from your comment that the poltical parties are not doing anything because they don't want to lose seats.

There may be many reasons why the aren't doing something...like everytime they try to change laws the civil libertarian industry goes into frenzy such as we have seen here and in Qld over the bikie laws.

It is not because they are afraid of tlosing their seats in my opinion.

[Chucaro]

Nugge T, THIS (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/muslim-lobby-group-backs-libs-in-labor-strongholds/story-e6frgczx-1226010987975?nk=fbbe0bf0758c729815fd00cd494cdae8) is an old article but will give you an idea how important is the vote of that community to both parties.

I hope that you are right with your views.
Talking about terrorism and laws, was not a special law introduced after 9-11?

[nugge t]

There is a huge difference between parties from both sides chasing the support of specific groups whether it be religous, sporting or gender.

What you were saying though is that the reason that action is not being taken against the extremists is for political reasons. I just don't believe there is any evidence to support that.

The new threat from homegrown extremists is quite different to that generated by an overseas groups ( such as 9/11) and the enforcement agencies abilty to re-act needs to be quite different.

[Pickles2]

I am worried for the future generations. If we continue to give in to the demands of minority groups such as muslims. As far as I am concerned it is just a matter of time before there is a terror attack on Australian soil by an Islamic extremist.
I have been following closely the "Muslim problem" for many years. The problem is you just can't tell who, when or if someone will become an extremist. Australia has been way to lenient and lapse with the immigration of people from Muslim countries.
Australians have been slow to react to Islam however there is a growing awareness that all is not good and there are many small groups that are now becoming organised to fight against Muslim demands. Note I said demands, because they always demand they get what they want from a host nation even when they are a minority. Unfortunately, I can see an ugly fight coming and until politicians have enough guts to wake up the truth instead of pandering to minorities, things are going to get worse in Australia.
I find it really interesting that there has been no Muslims coming out and speaking against the atrocities being performed in the name of Islam overseas. Nothing at all however when Israel fights back against rocket attacks in Gaza there has been massive protests by Muslims.
Time for the politically correct do gooders to wake up. The Terror Laws do not go far enough as far as I am concerned.
That is pretty much the way I see things.
Have a think about how many Muslims there were around, even ten years ago,....there are many more now, and they are FAR more vocal, influential etc, promoting THEIR views in OUR Country. Something we are not allowed to do in their country. And their numbers are increasing, and their influence is growing.
Our laws are too weak,..we allow fundamentalists to preach anti Western stuff, their several wives all get on Welfare, some schools can't serve pork in tuck shops, separate swimming days for muslims, burkhas, more & more Mosques in populated areas, like I said, where will it end.
I'm probably older than most of you guys, so when things get REALLY worse, I probably won;t be here,... but they will get worse, unless we harden up, & stop pandering to them.
NOT saying they can't come, NOT saying that at all, only if they do, they obey our rules, just as we would have to do in their country.
Pickles.

[AndyG]

I would not say the Muslims have a monopoly on Extremism,

IRA
Spanish inquisition
Spanish conquest of South America for God,
oops all Catholic so far, (that's me)
OK Salem witch burning
various pogroms against the Jews by ''Christians''
etc
etc

99% of Muslims want to be left alone and raise their families, unfortunately they are in a ****ty neighborhood.

[PhilipA]

Andy AFAIR the spanish inquisition was 600 years ago, as was the conquest of South America which was for gold .

I recall the farewell speech of the US ambassador in Riyadh in 1985? when he was ejected because his wife's bodyguards had roughed up a Mutawa( religious police- officers to ensure virtue) when the Mutawa tried to cane his wife because he could see her ankles under her Abaya in a shopping centre.

"Without the marble and glass this place is really in 1405! " ( which is the Islamic calendar equivalent of 1985 Gregorian.

I hope we have learned something since 1405. I haven't heard of any stake burnings recently either or pogroms for that matter.

The point is that the world has moved on but Islam hasn't. Bet you haven't seen many Christian or for that matter any other non Islam beheadings recently either.
Its a wonder ISIS doesn't seek out the whole family including children and grandchildren and kill them all, but then maybe they do if they can find them.
BTW ISIS is Sunni Moslem the same as Saudi Arabia.
Regards Philip A

[AndyG]

Best I not mention Dachau, run by Christians I believe, both my Inlaws spent time there, on the wrong side of the wire.

And sadly up here beheading, mutilation, etc and burning alive, happens too frequently, normally the allegedly Christians disposing of the local witch/ sorcerers.

however totally agree ISIS are scum, and some extreme versions of Islam are on the nose.

[sheerluck]

Best I not mention Dachau, run by Christians I believe, both my Inlaws spent time there, on the wrong side of the wire.

And sadly up here beheading, mutilation, etc and burning alive, happens too frequently, normally the allegedly Christians disposing of the local witch/ sorcerers.

however totally agree ISIS are scum, and some extreme versions of Islam are on the nose.

You believe wrong. Dachau, along with the other extermination camps such as Auschwitz, was run by the Nazis. Any religious preferences expressed were secondary to their political extremism.

(Geez. Here I am sticking up for the god botherers. What is the world coming to!)

[AndyG]

Let's just say my in laws had a different opinion, based on first hand experience, and leave it at that,

[frantic]

I would not say the Muslims have a monopoly on Extremism,

IRA
Spanish inquisition
Spanish conquest of South America for God,
oops all Catholic so far, (that's me)
OK Salem witch burning
various pogroms against the Jews by ''Christians''
etc
etc

99% of Muslims want to be left alone and raise their families, unfortunately they are in a ****ty neighborhood.
First one was a civil war with religion as a background.
Second 600 years ago, we and they have matured, try getting at least last few generations.
It was for GOLD , you forgot the L. Religion was an excuse.
Salem was how long ago?

Finally read Hamas doctrine, it's in this thread, the MAJORITY of Muslims voted for them in Palestinian Territories, bit higher than 1%.

[sheerluck]

Let's just say my in laws had a different opinion, based on first hand experience, and leave it at that,

You are missing the point of my post Andy.

I lived in Germany for a number of years, and the last school I went to was a mental hospital before and during the war. The patients (several hundred of them, including children) were exterminated on site. There was a memorial in the grounds, and a lot of history and documents remaining.

So you won't find me defending anyone.

However, the extermination was not done in the name of Christianity, or any other sky fairy, it was the racial ideology of the Nazi party. That's why I said that Christianity was secondary to the Nazi extremism of the Dachau guards (and definitely not to dismiss the experiences of your in-laws).

[PhilipA]

In fact Dachau was an internment camp for religious orders and a lot of priests were imprisoned there.

The ovens/gas chambers at Dachau were apparently never used,well that what was I was told anyway. The Nazis probably ran out of time.
32000 died. from Wiki .



Main article: Priest Barracks of Dachau Concentration
Camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Concentration_Camp)

Dachau had a special "priest block." Of the 2720 priests (among
them 2579 Catholic) held in Dachau, 1034 did not survive the camp. The majority
were Polish (1780), of whom 868 died in Dachau.

Regards Philip A

[Chucaro]

.................................................. ............
(Geez. Here I am sticking up for the god botherers. What is the world coming to!)

Is that cold there that you are kissing the bottle of rum? :D

[sheerluck]

Is that cold there that you are kissing the bottle of rum? :D

It could never be cold enough to make me drink rum!

[Disco Muppet]

It could never be cold enough to make me drink rum!

Come for a visit :p

[sheerluck]

Come for a visit :p

The Peoples' Republic of Orange? Pah. Call that cold? When I were a lad it were so cold that we had to prise the dog off the pavement. And we all lived in igloos. In summer.

[Disco Muppet]

The Peoples' Republic of Orange? Pah. Call that cold? When I were a lad it were so cold that we had to prise the dog off the pavement. And we all lived in igloos. In summer.

You dare make Comrade General Dog move!
:nazilock:
Did you also have to get up at 10 o'clock at night, half an hour before you went to bed, and lick the road clean with your tongue?

[Mick_Marsh]

Funnily enough, I work at a mill.
Don't have to pay the mill owner to work there, yet.

[rangietragic]

You dare make Comrade General Dog move!
:nazilock:
Did you also have to get up at 10 o'clock at night, half an hour before you went to bed, and lick the road clean with your tongue?
You tell young people that today,they won't believe you:p

[Chucaro]

Extra, Extra!!! political debate and Chucaro is not involved!!!! :p

[incisor]

Extra, Extra!!! political debate and Chucaro is not involved!!!! :p

why they take the bait when they know it breaches the guidelines

maybe time to start issuing holiday reward points again it seems...

[nugge t]

Gee...I queried you on this in a thread the other day and at the time it apparently was OK :D

[Greatsouthernland]

Just catching up with this thread. Reading a linked article quoted in The Sun -

Other notable comments from the sheik include his belief that jihad is the "peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point" of Islam and the Kaffir - or non-Muslim - is "the worst word ever written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt".

Yesterday at Bukhari House, a spokesman said that Sheik Feiz Mohammed attended the centre "infrequently".

At the Global Islamic Centre, spokesman Abu Bakr said he had not seen the sheik "for months".

This bloke is a sheik, so Islam is his creed, just as A bishop is of Christian faith, it seems that Islam has no way of controlling these respected leaders of their creed, even if they come out saying they are mainly peaceful.

So it's hard for me to believe that Islam can exist peacefully anywhere when there are sheiks like this one. Their rank will always win them followers.

Clearly if he says these things he is challenging our society an implying we must die if not Muslim? So that's (inciting/planning MURDER) against the law isn't it? Why isn't he (and his supporters) arrested? I don't understand why the law as it is now can't protect us from these brainwashed supremacist 'lunatics'...surely his words are threats?

Toughen up Australia! Advance Australia FAIR!! :censored:

[Greatsouthernland]

Finally, journalistic research and truthful reporting...:eek:

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/refusing-to-see-evil-puts-us-all-in-danger/story-fni0ffxg-1227023397860)

THE danger isn’t just from jihadist terrorists. There’s also the intellectual cowardice of our political class. I’m talking about those — mainly on the Left — claiming Islamism is no real threat or that the real problem is not “them” but “us”.

[bee utey]

The thing is, while you may think that all muslims are dangerous because some are jihadists, in some parts of the so-called "civilised" world the white christian police will happily gun you down for the crime of being poor and black.

St Louis riots: Police use tear gas, rubber bullets on crowd in Ferguson protesting teen’s death (http://www.smh.com.au/world/st-louis-riots-police-use-tear-gas-rubber-bullets-on-crowd-in-ferguson-protesting-teen8217s-death-20140813-103euj.html)

Hacker group Anonymous plan revenge on Ferguson, Missouri police after death of teen Michael Brown | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/hacker-group-anonymous-plan-revenge-on-ferguson-missouri-police-after-death-of-teen-michael-brown/story-fndir2ev-1227022667034)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/959.jpg

I'd hate to live in any country that does not protect all its citizens to a reasonable degree. I fervently hope that Australia never sinks to those depths because of a paranoid deranged elite afraid of the people they ruthlessly stomp on.

[Greatsouthernland]

Yes Beutey, that is also bad.

But back to the here and now...I foresee we have been 'lucky' to catch a few, and thanks to those spooks that may have been involved in stopping it, but as the journo mentioned, all is not peaceful and tolerant of infidels like you and I and 28million others.

If you're not a Muslim Beeutey, you are by definition from this Shiek an infidel, and you know Jihad means these nutters want to kill us?

There's only a couple hundred or so, that we have been told about, some are on holiday in Iraq killing now, they'll be back soon and pumped up like the last lot that got caught LUCKILY.

But I suppose it'll all just go away...she'll be right :( I seriously hope so.

Edit: therefore some type of security law is required, but what the govt proposes, seems extreme...record everything and not target certain activities/behaviour, seems like using a D9 to crack an pistachio.

[Greatsouthernland]

The thing is, while you may think that all muslims are dangerous because some are jihadists BULL****, DIDNT SAY THAT in some parts of the so-called "civilised" world the white christian police will happily gun you down for the crime of being poor and black.

But not for being an Infidel, right? Cos that's my concern, in fact that was the subject of my post, and I didn't mention police gunning anyone down, I said "ARREST" :angel: so start a new thread for "poor and black being a crime" and include a reference...if they are committing that crime you speak of then go get em, strange crime? But different country and WAY DIFFERENT TOPIC :eek::angel:




I'd hate to live in any country that does not protect all its citizens to a reasonable degree. I fervently hope that Australia never sinks to those depths because of a paranoid deranged elite afraid of the people they ruthlessly stomp on.

I think you've gone a little bit further than the realm of reality there champ. I actually posted a link to a journalist's research on a different subject to that of elitism...something in the smoke up in Crafers tonight :p. Edit: I mean the smoke from all the wood heaters, there may be someone burning something that's tainted it :wacko: you know? May be blowing your way and distracting the thought process :unsure: could happen :blink:

[nugge t]

The thing is, while you may think that all muslims are dangerous because some are jihadists, in some parts of the so-called "civilised" world the white christian police will happily gun you down for the crime of being poor and black.

St Louis riots: Police use tear gas, rubber bullets on crowd in Ferguson protesting teen’s death (http://www.smh.com.au/world/st-louis-riots-police-use-tear-gas-rubber-bullets-on-crowd-in-ferguson-protesting-teen8217s-death-20140813-103euj.html)

Hacker group Anonymous plan revenge on Ferguson, Missouri police after death of teen Michael Brown | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/hacker-group-anonymous-plan-revenge-on-ferguson-missouri-police-after-death-of-teen-michael-brown/story-fndir2ev-1227022667034)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/959.jpg

I'd hate to live in any country that does not protect all its citizens to a reasonable degree. I fervently hope that Australia never sinks to those depths because of a paranoid deranged elite afraid of the people they ruthlessly stomp on.

Arent you guilty of the same generalising. Are all police white christians who will happily gun down poor black folk?

[incisor]

Gee...I queried you on this in a thread the other day and at the time it apparently was OK :D

the thread itself is fine..

how you behave in it is up to you...

[DiscoMick]

As I read it, no-one in this thread is rejecting the idea that there are some nutters out there (Muslim, Christian, or just plain weird) who need to be dealt with, I expect we'd all agree with that.
I thought the issue was, do we need to give up more of our privacy to deal with those nutters, or are our existing laws sufficient?
I remain unconvinced that the government's proposals are necessary and I'd want to have the authorities be required to get a warrant from a judge before they could act. That might inhibit unnecessary infringements by over-zealous spooks just wanting to trawl through the data of innocent people just in case they find something.
If there is other evidence suggesting a person could be a problem, gathered by good old fashioned investigating, then fine, let them in, but not just on speculation, I say.

[Redback]

I would not say the Muslims have a monopoly on Extremism,

IRA
Spanish inquisition
Spanish conquest of South America for God,
oops all Catholic so far, (that's me)
OK Salem witch burning
various pogroms against the Jews by ''Christians''
etc
etc

99% of Muslims want to be left alone and raise their families, unfortunately they are in a ****ty neighborhood.

Nothing to do with religon, never was and still isn't at the heart of the conflict, most of the Prodestant population are from English and Scottish stock, brought in by the English, they don't want to be part of Ireland and want to remain part of England, you'd be supprised how many Prodestants there are in the IRA;)

[nugge t]

the thread itself is fine..

how you behave in it is up to you...

Yep. I agree. I was not commenton the actual thread but that I quried you on comments you made which were political in a thread, I just can not remember which one, and at that time it was deemed to be OK.

I haven't been contacted by any mods but it looks like a post was removed so I am assuming that this was different to then ?

[incisor]

several posts were removed.

and a general warning placed in the thread...

no holiday reward points this time round.... :D

[Chucaro]

several posts were removed.

and a general warning placed in the thread...

no holiday reward points this time round.... :D

Is the AURLO simbin the destination with the reward points or an exotic place in Queensland?

[DiscoMick]

I think the AULRO sinbin might be being forced to spend a week in a Toyota forum!

[PhilipA]

I think what many on this forum forget is that things changed forever on 9/11.
I can recall lying in Mona Vale hospital casualty with fribrillation and watching it on TV. I said to my wife "This is the end of privacy as we know it."
What is different?

The difference is the "force multipliers" that terrorists have at their disposal due to the concentrated nature of cities . These arose from their deliberate tactic of targetting city based civilians in non combatent countries, because they are "guilty by association" and of course infidels.

Whether a jet aircraft into a building or a suicide vest in Wynyard station, terrorists now have the ability to kill hundreds of people at once.

If it were a lone gunman , who can kill on 6 or whatever before being killed then while it may sound callous , it would remain an irritant and not matter enough to have to track every potential killer.

BUT now even one killer can kill hundreds or thousands if they manage to build an atomic bomb.

I for one am very willing to give up some privacy to reduce the chance of a lone killer with a suicide vest exploding it in Town Hall or Wynyard during peak hour.

I must say that IMHO people that object to their loss of privacy appear to this old fogey as part of the "ME" generation. Oh dear I regret that that terrorist killed 500 people but it didn't affect ME, and I can continue to look at all those porn sites and nobody will know.

Regards Philip A

[Greatsouthernland]

... and I can continue to look at all those porn sites and nobody will know.

Regards Philip A

They're not going to watch us just because of that are they :eek2:

I mean :unsure: if someone was :ninja: you know accidentally to come across one of those sites, that's what I meant :blush:

:(:whistling: of course I was asking on behalf of a mate, seriously :angel:

[PhilipA]

Now a pair of new studies reveal some additional insight into the unique role of
porn on the internet. The first study (http://www.optenet.com/en-us/new.asp?id=270) is from
Optenet, a SaaS provider which delivers "on-premise" security. Optenet claims
that it found approximately 37 percent of the pages online to contain
pornographic content.

Full article here

DailyTech - Study: One Third of Internet is Crammed With Porn (http://www.dailytech.com/Study+One+Third+of+Internet+is+Crammed+With+Porn/article18760.htm)

[Brett1066]

[QUOTE=PhilipA;2204406]I think what many on this forum forget is that things changed forever on 9/11.
/QUOTE]

PhilipA - hit the nail on the head right there. When I was a kid growing up in Port Hedland, anyone could head down to the wharves at the port and go for a fish. After 9/11, no-one can enter a port without a maritime clearance security card (I know, I had one, I worked on a shiploader for a few years). To get that card, you have to give the details of everywhere you have lived for the last 10 years, full federal police clearance, plus a heap of other questions to fill out. Why - because they realised just how vulnerable our ports are.
Changes in the terror laws don't particularly bother me one way or the other, but whether we like it or not, the world has changed.

[Greatsouthernland]

Full article here

DailyTech - Study: One Third of Internet is Crammed With Porn (http://www.dailytech.com/Study+One+Third+of+Internet+is+Crammed+With+Porn/article18760.htm)

:eek: I know, wherever I look I see it! :angel: NOT that I was looking for IT, but yes shocking :cool: should be an enquiry...1/3rd hey? That's a lot of server space...:o Why would there be that much?

So many questions :eek: ... But back to pornternet security.

[superquag]

Brett, same with airports. I need to go 'Airside' occasionally, but now need a fancy security card, - same deal, want to know where I was for the last 10 years. Only lasts 2 years, at $200 a pop... And I've got to have a reason to have it, like student pilot or regular maintanance work etc.

Security clearance can take several weeks to arrive...

[Greatsouthernland]

Same with mining in the middle of SA. The parts overflown by the Woomera Prohibited Area, which is A LOT OF THE STATE!

Need a commonwealth clearance to get a job on site or exploration drilling...or station hand...

Can't take a camera with more than 10Mega Pixel or more than 5* zoom! or something like that.

[incisor]

Death threats against Muslim leader Dr Jamal Rifi who spoke out against radicals - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-14/death-threats-against-muslim-leader-who-denounced-radicals/5670774)

[BMKal]

[QUOTE=PhilipA;2204406]I think what many on this forum forget is that things changed forever on 9/11.
/QUOTE]

PhilipA - hit the nail on the head right there. When I was a kid growing up in Port Hedland, anyone could head down to the wharves at the port and go for a fish. After 9/11, no-one can enter a port without a maritime clearance security card (I know, I had one, I worked on a shiploader for a few years). To get that card, you have to give the details of everywhere you have lived for the last 10 years, full federal police clearance, plus a heap of other questions to fill out. Why - because they realised just how vulnerable our ports are.
Changes in the terror laws don't particularly bother me one way or the other, but whether we like it or not, the world has changed.

Not just in the larger ports like Hedland either ........ ;)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/943.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/944.jpg

They're interrupting our fishing spots. :o

Fortunately it only gets enforced when there's a ship in.

[JDNSW]

Brett, same with airports. I need to go 'Airside' occasionally, but now need a fancy security card, - same deal, want to know where I was for the last 10 years. Only lasts 2 years, at $200 a pop... And I've got to have a reason to have it, like student pilot or regular maintanance work etc.

Security clearance can take several weeks to arrive...

This is why I gave up flying!

John

[Greatsouthernland]

Death threats against Muslim leader Dr Jamal Rifi who spoke out against radicals - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-14/death-threats-against-muslim-leader-who-denounced-radicals/5670774)

Unreal, so they can't stop their own followers. I saw on ABC news the Australian Moofty (doesn't speak English only Arabic, but he's the Australian Islam go to dude) He was elated that they managed to 'restrain' many who wanted to go to Iraq to kill non-Muslims. He smiled when he said 'if it wasn't for us, there would have been 1500 going, not the 150 that did'.

Good one, hardly a success, that means there are another 1350 in Australia that were and are ready and willing to kill non-Muslims, and he's smiling like 'I am velly good :angel: ).

Tip of the iceberg...

[rangietragic]

Until muslims drag themselves out of the middle ages,nothing will change:(

[Roverlord off road spares]

From my ISP iinet a link form an email they sent me.
Protecting your privacy: Our stand against (http://blog.iinet.net.au/protecting-your-privacy/?cid=res-ret-gen-new-edm-iin-new-iin-wri-aug14-5)

[Roverlord off road spares]

Same with mining in the middle of SA. The parts overflown by the Woomera Prohibited Area, which is A LOT OF THE STATE!

Need a commonwealth clearance to get a job on site or exploration drilling...or station hand...

Can't take a camera with more than 10Mega Pixel or more than 5* zoom! or something like that.

The Land Rover parts we send to some remote part of Australia send a warning up on the screen at out local post office that it is traveling over /near a restricted area, We have to prove Identity on mailing. I suppose a TD5 starter motor could fall out of the sky and cause widespread damage.

[85 county]

[QUOTE=PhilipA;2204406]I think what many on this forum forget is that things changed forever on 9/11.
/QUOTE]

PhilipA - hit the nail on the head right there. When I was a kid growing up in Port Hedland, anyone could head down to the wharves at the port and go for a fish. After 9/11, no-one can enter a port without a maritime clearance security card (I know, I had one, I worked on a shiploader for a few years). To get that card, you have to give the details of everywhere you have lived for the last 10 years, full federal police clearance, plus a heap of other questions to fill out. Why - because they realised just how vulnerable our ports are.
Changes in the terror laws don't particularly bother me one way or the other, but whether we like it or not, the world has changed.

when i did my clearance for a few bases RAAF and ADF i had the same form, mine said China, Russian Federation, Laos. the 4 austraians with me had to waite 6 weeks to get there cards. i had an interview the next day and then was handed my card.

[Pilgrim]

I look to the US to see how things may evolve here.
They tightened their terror laws to the n'th degree, then redefined the meaning of the word 'terror' to include persons, foreign or domestic, with view counter to the governments view ( in effect ). They now have total control.
Watch news on Ferguson to see how things are today.
They have no industry any more other than the military and espionage complex,which must be kept running by starting new wars etc.
I love our country, its freedom and such, but I cringe when I see our foreign minister jumping at the heels of John Kerry like a little lap-dog, asking how she can help prod Russia ( blaming Russia for MH17 on day one without evidence and suggesting the latest supply convoy may be a ploy to get troops into Ukraine ), and when our PM visits Washington and suggests that it's more important what Obama thinks of him, rather than what he thinks of Obama. Stuff them, stand proud.
The US is in trouble and I just hope our patsy government does not use our past alliances to blindly lead us into a new police state era. The US is not who and what it was, so we need to tread a new path in this changing world.
In the interim, I'm taking my 110 around Oz for a good dose of real beauty.

[Chucaro]

I look to the US to see how things may evolve here.
They tightened their terror laws to the n'th degree, then redefined the meaning of the word 'terror' to include persons, foreign or domestic, with view counter to the governments view ( in effect ). They now have total control.
.................................................. ......................................

That it is exactly how started in South America in the mid 1960's and it was the first step to dictatorship spread all over the continent :mad:
Please Australian people do not allow this here!

[DiscoMick]

This is an interesting story:


Islamic State Australian fighter places bounty on head of local Muslim leader | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/08/14/islamic-state-australian-fighter-places-bounty-head-local-muslim-leader)


I think it shows several things:


People fighting overseas can threaten locals
Local Muslims are rejecting the extremists
The police already knew enough about this guy to issue an arrest warrant and monitor his Twitter account


So, this is an example of the system working. I don't think it shows a need for greater surveillance, since they can already monitor those who are making trouble by getting warrants.


We forget how much surveillance is already going on. Its a lot. For example, we recently had federal politicians complaining they were being monitored, so obviously there's not much stopping the monitoring of people who are being singled out by their own Muslim communities as troublemakers.
What do you think?

[nugge t]

That it is exactly how started in South America in the mid 1960's and it was the first step to dictatorship spread all over the continent :mad:
Please Australian people do not allow this here!

A dictator getting up in Aussie as a result of tightening anti terror laws.

With all due respect, that is a massive drawing of the bow. Firstly it is not 1960 in South America and secondly the Muslims would have taken over with their own version well before then :D

[nugge t]

This is an interesting story:


Islamic State Australian fighter places bounty on head of local Muslim leader | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/08/14/islamic-state-australian-fighter-places-bounty-head-local-muslim-leader)


I think it shows several things:


People fighting overseas can threaten locals
Local Muslims are rejecting the extremists
The police already knew enough about this guy to issue an arrest warrant and monitor his Twitter account


So, this is an example of the system working. I don't think it shows a need for greater surveillance, since they can already monitor those who are making trouble by getting warrants.


We forget how much surveillance is already going on. Its a lot. For example, we recently had federal politicians complaining they were being monitored, so obviously there's not much stopping the monitoring of people who are being singled out by their own Muslim communities as troublemakers.
What do you think?

Not sure it is an example of the system working at all. these guys are overseas. The real threat as I see it is homegrown nutters who are still in Australia. Do we know who all of them are?

[Chucaro]

A dictator getting up in Aussie as a result of tightening anti terror laws.

With all due respect, that is a massive drawing of the bow. Firstly it is not 1960 in South America and secondly the Muslims would have taken over with their own version well before then :D

Have you lived in a country with equal or more democracy that Australia which was under right ideology government and imposed the laws that were suggested by Pilgrim?;)
Have in mind that I was referring to this, quote: then redefined the meaning of the word 'terror' to include persons, foreign or domestic, with view counter to the governments view End of quote

If yes, have you supported them?
If not, I suggest to you to read a bit of history, it will help you to understand my comment better

[nugge t]

Your comment is quite clear but it is a massive leap from where we are to suggest we will end up a dictatorship as a result of the proposed law changes.


To suggest this is simply not credible IMHO.

[Chucaro]

Your comment is quite clear but it is a massive leap from where we are to suggest we will end up a dictatorship as a result of the proposed law changes.


To suggest this is simply not credible IMHO.

Nugge, the problem started with the law " include persons, foreign or domestic, with view counter to the governments view"
At the beginning protests will not allowed, and people who participated on them were locked up, after the media was not allowed to publish any news, article or editorial which did not complained with the law.
Following that, more protests were taken place with more people in jail and at the end the parliament dissolved because members did not comply with the law.
If the law is in place it have to be comply and once in place it will finish with a draconian government putting it in a nice way or realistically dictatorship.
It is credible, it happens before and it happens in many countries in the last decades.
As I have said, study history of the last 60 years alone and you will see ;)

[nugge t]

Nugge, the problem started with the law " include persons, foreign or domestic, with view counter to the governments view"
At the beginning protests will not allowed, and people who participated on them were locked up, after the media was not allowed to publish any news, article or editorial which did not complained with the law.
Following that, more protests were taken place with more people in jail and at the end the parliament dissolved because members did not comply with the law.
If the law is in place it have to be comply and once in place it will finish with a draconian government putting it in a nice way or realistically dictatorship.
It is credible, it happens before and it happens in many countries in the last decades.
As I have said, study history of the last 60 years alone and you will see ;)


Not everything that happens in South America happens in Australia. It is a totally different situation and you can try to justify what was an extreme comment at best but it just doesn't wash.


Qld outlawed protests under JOH if I remember correctly and here we are 40 years later without a dictator...who would have guessed ;)

[Chucaro]

Not everything that happens in South America happens in Australia. It is a totally different situation and you can try to justify what was an extreme comment at best but it just doesn't wash.


Qld outlawed protests under JOH if I remember correctly and here we are 40 years later without a dictator...who would have guessed ;)

First do not call my comment extreme, I did not call your ignorant or reflecting nativity, just agree to disagree. ;)
Second, if I remember correctly Joh did not put in place a law as we are talking in USA, it was in one state on federal and also the majority of the people did not complained about it.
They were prepared to put up with it or agree with his behavior.
I guess that will be better to live it as is ;)

[nugge t]

Call it as I see it and in my opinion it is extreme and that is being kind. You are trying to drum up an extreme position based on a South American experience 60 years ago to justify your view on proposed law changes. You are flogging a dead horse IMHO.

[PhilipA]

I was thinking about WHY the authorities need more laws to target people and the responses to my last post gave a clue.

The posters talked about increased security at installations such as ports, airports etc, and indeed just after 9/11 I was involved in meetings in Canberra where security of public installations such as dams and water treatment plants was discussed.

This has proven to be totally a waste of time , well not totally as they increased security at water treatment plants which could be used to poison people.

This is because the terrorist's strategy was not to attack installations but to kill as many innocents as possible with the aim of cowing governments into abandoning the Middle East. This has been accomplished but they always gain a new target as they are really motivated by simple hatred.

It is not possible to secure raiway stations or trains and this is where the terrorists have inflicted most carnage in Spain, and UK . What do you do to secure a train station? Check everyone through metal detectors? My prediction is that if there is a terrorist attack in Australia it will be at a train station or similar.

So the obvious answer and only answer is to PREVENT terrorist attacks by snuffing them at the source.

So to this end the security apparatus intends to intercept and correlate communications to identify the forming terrorist cells.

This is really the ONLY way to minimise attacks. An example of a failure was the Boston Marathon bombing where even though different agencies had information it was not correlated and the community in this case friends impeded police.

So that is why I have no problem with increased powers.

Regards Philip A