Weighed today

[stray dingo]

I put my d4 on the weighbridge today and it came back with 3040kg.
GVM in the book is 3240kg, and base weight (inc 75kg driver) is 2583kg.
I previous had it weighed at 2740kg, after the bull bar went on.

I thought I had accounted for about 320kg of extras, (front bar, fuel tank (full), rear carrier, drawers, battery) but not 530kg....:o

I've still got a family of 5 to fit in yet, plus fridge. I don't think the spare tyre and hi-lift jack will make it on the roof now before we next head away. Plus the winch and sliders are off the to-get list.....
Taking the third row out may pick up 50kg or so.

I've come to the realisation that it can't have been near 2508kg when it rolled out the factory. (the only factory extras were audio system upgrade, tow pack, and xenon head lights).

Are produced vehicles weighed and stamped at all? I can't find any stamp/plate listing a production weight, nor in TOPIx etc? Or is that just a caravan thing to weigh at production?

[mowog]

A lot of Caravans have estimated Tare as well.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Put the kids and wife on a diet or leave a couple at home! :twisted:

I've wondered if it's possible to have the D4 GVM engineered up?

[Nomad9]

Hi There,
I'm not sure what you have got in the way of rubber on the rear wheels, when i fitted all my fruit very similar to what you have fitted the tyre pressures became critical and for me I had to do a lot of testing to get it right. Trying to balance out damage to the vehicle shaking to peices, passenger comfort and tyre temperature was a real art. I only had a TVan as well not a caravan.

Yes I took out the sixth and seventh seat out, replaced it with a peice of balsa wood, didn't work fridge fell through...........:)

On sand the back end becomes very heavy and eaisly sinkable even with all the optional extras the LR comes with. Momentum and suspension lowering gets you every time.

[TerryO]

When I was originally considering a V8 D4 I checked on the Redbook site what the TARE weight was for a V8 compared to a 3.0 diesel to see which was lighter. The numbers on the site said both engined vehicles weigh exactly the same, which I would bet is wrong.

I will weigh the D4 tomorrow to see what it weighs and how far out they are.

[weeds]

You're not alone........a good percentage of late model 4wds in touring mode would be over GVM.....we would be doomed if they started weighing while touring.

I do my defender a couple of time a year.....it's great having a weight bridge at work. Last time I was 20kg over on the front axle.

[rufusking]

You're not alone........a good percentage of late model 4wds in touring mode would be over GVM.....we would be doomed if they started weighing while touring.


Just had a look at the build/VIN sticker and the registration papers but I can't find an actual GVM. The door jam / B pillar sticker has 7 seats after GVM but no kg's. The registration papers (VIC) only has a tare listed as 2434kg for a MY12 HSE with Alpine Roof.

If they ever pulled you into a weigh station what would their basis be for the GVM?

[scarry]

Mine was around 2780kg after a good wash to get rid of all the mud,sand,etc.
Bar,cargo barrier,dual battery,half tank of fuel,72kg driver,not me, i was out checking the reading on the scales.

And it is the 2.7l poverty pack:):(

[stray dingo]

Just had a look at the build/VIN sticker and the registration papers but I can't find an actual GVM. The door jam / B pillar sticker has 7 seats after GVM but no kg's. The registration papers (VIC) only has a tare listed as 2434kg for a MY12 HSE with Alpine Roof.


Yeah, mines all the same (but SE without the alpine roof).
Wonder where the 2434 came from - 80kg less than manufacturer spec/handbook.....?


You're not alone........a good percentage of late model 4wds in touring mode would be over GVM.....we would be doomed if they started weighing while touring.

hmmm....my last car...hence why I thought I was keeping it in check this time. It all adds up very quick....

[ADMIRAL]

A 2.7lt 5 seater has a GVW ( Gross Vehicle weight - LR's designation ) of 3240kgs, with a max rear axle weight of 1855kg. My 2.7 without the van on, but pretty much it's holiday load, came in at 3100kg including people, with the rear axle at 1642kg. The van ball weight is 240kg. It is a close run thing. My D4 has an Aux fuel tank, rear wheel carrier, fridge and drawers, and steel bullbar with dual batteries, plus roofrack with solar panel & assorted odds n sods. It all adds up.

The transport boys have been active during the holiday breaks this year. It is off to the weighbridge before setting off on the next trip, just to be sure.

[BobD]

I was thinking of getting rear drawers but when I weighed mine it was already 2740 with nothing but a half full main tank. My D4 3.0 SE has Kaymar bar with 2 spares, ECB alloy bull bar, long range tank, dual batteries and Mitch Hitch so I wasn't surprised at the extra weight. I had to remove as many seats as possible to try to stay below GVM during a trip with a roof top tent and 3 people in the car. We also travelled quite light and got close to GVM but a bit over if I filled both tanks with fuel and had just stocked up on food and bottled water. From my calculations and weighing stuff that had to go in the car I could only put about 50l in the aux tank and not carry more than 10l of water to stay within GVM, assuming I didn't put on any weight during the trip.


Bob

[Tombie]

You're not alone........a good percentage of late model 4wds in touring mode would be over GVM.....we would be doomed if they started weighing while touring.

Have I got some happy news for you then!!!

Transport mob has started in the last 18 months towing around a portable unit.

And yes, they pull up 4wds and 4wd / van combos and weigh them..

Seen several asked to park up... And then fines issued and not allowed to proceed until they have a diet...


Also, several insurance companies are now having vehicles out touring impounded and weighed after incidents whilst touring - over GVM and goodbye insurance - Theres been a few now...

[BobD]

I put my d4 on the weighbridge today and it came back with 3040kg.
GVM in the book is 3240kg, and base weight (inc 75kg driver) is 2583kg.
I previous had it weighed at 2740kg, after the bull bar went on.

I thought I had accounted for about 320kg of extras, (front bar, fuel tank (full), rear carrier, drawers, battery) but not 530kg....:o




I reckon your last weighing must be wrong. The 2740 was probably about right and your estimate of 320kg of extras could be correct but as you say you will not have 530kg extra, even if you had an extra 75kg of fuel (100l or so) that wasn't weighed initially.


Bob

[ADMIRAL]

I reckon your last weighing must be wrong. The 2740 was probably about right and your estimate of 320kg of extras could be correct but as you say you will not have 530kg extra, even if you had an extra 75kg of fuel (100l or so) that wasn't weighed initially.


Bob


Yes but nobody tends to overestimate weight, we are all inclined to err on the light side.

[BobD]

Patrols are the worst. The GVM of my GQ is only about 2700 and I think it weighs that much empty with the 6.5 Chev diesel, 33 inch tyres, ARB Bullbar, over 200l of fuel, extra battery and the extra stuff I carry, even when not on a trip. The GU is not much better. The LR has heaps of carrying capacity in comparison at its standard weight.


Bob

[jonesy63]

Hi Folks,
Just for reference, here are some weights of wheel/tyre combinations:

Standard 18"x8" LR alloy wheels with Goodyear Wranglers in 255/60R18: 28kg

Standard 17"x7" LR alloy wheels with BFG KM2 LT245/70R17: 36kg

Steel 17"x7" Dynamic wheels with BFG KM2 LT245/70R17: 42kg

Moral: 5 steel wheels and LT tyres will add 70kg load. LT tyres will also add significant weight. Something to consider!

[Bytemrk]

Wow!...

Think I better do this properly... out of interest stuck my head into the local tip and got a verbal reading as is..

2012 SDV6 ARB bar (No winch), brads sliders, Kaymar RWC - 1 wheel, Full Long Range Tank, Half full main tank, Small tool kit in the back and the 2nd Battery I just bought......Only my lard arse in the car.. 3040Kg! :eek::eek:

I knew it would be heavy.... and I'm not 100% sure the car behind wasn't partly on the bridge...but that's what she said :(

I think I'll do it again properly doing axle weights the whole lot at a different weigh bridge..maybe throw in my fridge and a few other things to get it closer to real touring mode and see where I stand....

I always knew I had to loose some weight..... but maybe the big white hippopotamus does too :p

Tombie - with all your underbody armour - any idea what yours weighs?

[Tombie]

Tombie - with all your underbody armour - any idea what yours weighs?


I shall catch up with the weigh bridge boys this weekend!

[BobD]

This is one reason why I used an alloy bull bar and Gordon's alloy sliders and protection plates are a good idea. Any loaded and modified 4WD is likely to be over GVM without a GVM upgrade so the weight of the upgrades is critical. I don't know of any way of getting a GVM upgrade for our Land Rovers, though.


I remember when I brought this up on the forum a couple of years ago, just after I weighed my car, lots of people said we should all be using trailers while touring. I do that now, so at least I can take the heavy stuff out of the car and put it in the camper trailer, although it is also easy to get that over weight without being careful with what you really need to bring.


Bob

[stray dingo]

I reckon your last weighing must be wrong. The 2740 was probably about right and your estimate of 320kg of extras could be correct but as you say you will not have 530kg extra, even if you had an extra 75kg of fuel (100l or so) that wasn't weighed initially.
Bob

That was my first thought (hope) too :-) It was at the local scrap metal station who I've always used...

[/QUOTE]Yes but nobody tends to overestimate weight, we are all inclined to err on the light side.[QUOTE]
I was thinking I had overestimated. In hindsight tho, I've now got it up to 490kg. Anyone please correct my thinking:

1st weigh included:
Front ARB bar and driving lights, 60kg
Traxide kit: 25kg
Snorkel: 10kg
roof bars: 10kg
AT tyres: 5kg extra each (didn't include 40 pounds of air though - maybe thats my problem :):))
full fuel tank from petrol station 200m away 80 litres: 75kg
= 205kg

2nd weigh included
aux tank: 30kg (as advised by opp lock)
rear carrier (Outback single): 25kg (as advised by opp lock)
drawers: 58kg (website)
fridge slide: 35kg (shipping weight on packaging)
cargo barrier: 10kg
air compressor: 7kg
tool box: 20kg ish
both tanks full 170 litres: 155kg
= 340kg
= 470kg total

and a bunch on lightweight stuff - radio, seat covers, melway, etc: lets say 20kg for sake of argument...

= 490kg
only 40kg short......

[~Rich~]

Looks like any passenger is on a diet!
Oh and you can't eat or drink grog either :wasntme:

[ADMIRAL]

That was my first thought (hope) too :-) It was at the local scrap metal station who I've always used...

Yes but nobody tends to overestimate weight, we are all inclined to err on the light side.

I was thinking I had overestimated. In hindsight tho, I've now got it up to 490kg. Anyone please correct my thinking:

1st weigh included:
Front ARB bar and driving lights, 60kg
Traxide kit: 25kg
Snorkel: 10kg
roof bars: 10kg
AT tyres: 5kg extra each (didn't include 40 pounds of air though - maybe thats my problem :):))
full fuel tank from petrol station 200m away 80 litres: 75kg
= 205kg

2nd weigh included
aux tank: 30kg (as advised by opp lock)
rear carrier (Outback single): 25kg (as advised by opp lock)
drawers: 58kg (website)
fridge slide: 35kg (shipping weight on packaging)
cargo barrier: 10kg
air compressor: 7kg
tool box: 20kg ish
both tanks full 170 litres: 155kg
= 340kg
= 470kg total

and a bunch on lightweight stuff - radio, seat covers, melway, etc: lets say 20kg for sake of argument...

= 490kg
only 40kg short......


Some of the weights don't gel

I would be very surprised if a steel ARB Bar with lights is only 60kg, and I think the Aux tank at 30kg is way too light. More like 60kg. The Traxide includes a battery at 25kg ( doesn't it ) I think you have to go with a total weight from a weighbridge. Trying to add weights up just increases the margin for error.

[discojools]

My 2.7 D4 with OLbar, winch, long range tank, 6 x BFG KM2s, Rhino roof rack, recovery gear, some tools and 60 litre Engel came in at 3000kg. Fuel tanks full but no water. Methinks that with water, me and passenger plus clothes and a bit of grub
it will be right on the limit of 3240kg.

[Redback]

My 2.7 D4 with OLbar, winch, long range tank, 6 x BFG KM2s, Rhino roof rack, recovery gear, some tools and 60 litre Engel came in at 3000kg. Fuel tanks full but no water. Methinks that with water, me and passenger plus clothes and a bit of grub
it will be right on the limit of 3240kg.

I think I may be close to the same, the Waeco may be a bit lighter being plastic, the missus is only 5.0' and 55kg, 65kg ball weight of the camper as I don't carry water.

Baz.

[Weird Al]

This is who they know how heavy (or wide or low or which rims) you can be before they can fine you.


Road Vehicle Descriptor (RVD1) (http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/perl/41394_1041037_RVD_05Sep2013083133.cmd)

[pibby]

Can't see towball weight in there. Just bought new car non lr and rated to tow 1600kg but towball weight about 80kg. Quite misleading.

[weeds]

Can't see towball weight in there. Just bought new car non lr and rated to tow 1600kg but towball weight about 80kg. Quite misleading.

what's misleading?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I will weigh the D4 tomorrow to see what it weighs and how far out they are.

and?:angel:

[rufusking]

Stuck mine on the weighbridge today, 2820kg! The front / rear split was 1,360 / 1,460.
This is for a MY12 with alpine roof which apparently adds a bit. I also fuelled up before hand as the EU tare includes full fuel but minus me at 82kg. Take away the Optima, mounting and 6B&S cabling to the rear at 35kg, cargo barrier 20kg, factory long tracks and Rhino crossbars say 15kg, UHF and other minor bits in the car say 15kg more (I emptied out most of my stuff before going to the weighbridge), that gets me down to a tare of ~2,650kg compare to the handbook 2,583kg, just 69 over. Guess the extra glass could account for a fair chunk of that.
It all adds up pretty quickly. Add a couple more bodies, stick the boat on the back and I won't have any trouble getting to the GVM/GVW (3,240kg). On todays weighbridge weight that only gives me 420kg to play with. Take away ~200kg towball weight and I'm left with 220kg to load into the vehicle!
Interestingly the GCM / Gross Train Weight is exactly GVM + max trailer @ 3,500 = 6,740kg must assume you're towing a dog trailer (front and rear axles with neg. hitch weight)
The other thing that caught my eye was the front axle weight at 1,360. Max. front is 1,450, won't be hard to go over that with a bulbar on. Maybe that's why the LR bar is alloy and lighter duty than most of the after market ones.
Next trip I'll run it over the bridge again to get an idea of what my true travel weights are.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

As I asked before, what would it take to upgrade the ratings?

Would it simply be a case of having kits for replacement increased capacity air-bags or is there much more to it than that?

Even with a pair of adult couples (average) would be 314kg so it doesn't leave much room left for gear and additional fuel.

[stray dingo]

As I asked before, what would it take to upgrade the ratings?

Would it simply be a case of having kits for replacement increased capacity air-bags or is there much more to it than that?

Even with a pair of adult couples (average) would be 314kg so it doesn't leave much room left for gear and additional fuel.

Unlike toyotas and Nissans etc there is no off the shelf kit for a gvm upgrade. You have to go to a engineer and them work it out I thinks.
Most of the other gvm upgrades include a suspension upgrade for which there are already products. LRs don't have any other suspension options other than OEM do they?

[West of]

Got interested in the Topic so went over the local weigh bridge today. Have a MY13 D4 HSE with dual battery. All else is standard, 3/4 tank of diesel + me @100kg. Weighed in at 2760Kg. Forgot there is also a spare toilet roll in the back for emergencies!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Unlike toyotas and Nissans etc there is no off the shelf kit for a gvm upgrade. You have to go to a engineer and them work it out I thinks.
Most of the other gvm upgrades include a suspension upgrade for which there are already products. LRs don't have any other suspension options other than OEM do they?Exactly why I am asking these questions.

Those of us who love our EAS D3/D4 and plan to keep them a long time will be subject to these problems when touring for the life of the vehicle.

If we can fit EAS to a Defender with Firestone bags, then perhaps as a group we should be looking at whats possible. I'm guessing most of us would be happy if the GVM could get up near 4Tonne.

[weeds]

Exactly why I am asking these questions.



Those of us who love our EAS D3/D4 and plan to keep them a long time will be subject to these problems when touring for the life of the vehicle.



If we can fit EAS to a Defender with Firestone bags, then perhaps as a group we should be looking at whats possible. I'm guessing most of us would be happy if the GVM could get up near 4Tonne.


I'm not sure you would get 700-800kg increase.........

the ARB GVM upgrade for a 200 series is something like 350kg, which equates to the common accessories that are fitted (long range fuel tank, front and rear bars, roof rack ect. Giving the original spare capacity back for people and luggage etc. most 200's even with GVM upgrade still go over in touring mode, well the guy at work is definitely in this situation.

[Tombie]

The rule is simple - touring = trailer.
There are some brilliant lightweight - very tough trailer options out there now.

[PaulGOz]

For ball weights and axle weights keep in mind that the ball weight is at the end of a lever and will place more weight on the rear axle than the ball weight itselfcthe weight is lifted off the front axle. The same applies to any weight behind the rear axle. Opposite for in front of front axle and snything between axles is split in some ratio equivalent to it cog distance from each axle.

[ADMIRAL]

I'm not sure you would get 700-800kg increase.........

the ARB GVM upgrade for a 200 series is something like 350kg, which equates to the common accessories that are fitted (long range fuel tank, front and rear bars, roof rack ect. Giving the original spare capacity back for people and luggage etc. most 200's even with GVM upgrade still go over in touring mode, well the guy at work is definitely in this situation.

Not a hope in hell. There is no way you will get any engineer to sign off on a change in load rating. Too many unknowns,( and LR are really going to assist aren't they ! ) and you have a second more obvious obstacle. The rear axle load rating is 1855kg. I'm at 1650kg odd now with an aux tank, wheel carrier, fridge and drawers ( not including any towball load ) . You would also be asking an engineer to sign off on exceeding the manufacturers rated axle loading !

A one off GVM upgrade is expensive, as the engineer will have to test the modified vehicle, including brake and swerve testing. I think there is only one facility in Victoria registered to do such work.

[stray dingo]

a Melbourne GVM upgrader responded to an enquirey with:

"Unfortunately we do not have an upgrade to suit your vehicle and as far as I am aware no one has engineered one in Australia as yet. It is not impossible to engineer a kit for your vehicle however the average cost to engineer one single vehicle starts at around $10,000 so generally we will put a vehicle through testing once we have at least ten vehicles confirmed to make it affordable for the customers. "

any takers?? :)

[TerryO]

I don't believe the NSW RTA accepts engineering certificates from out of State suppliers unfortunately. So that would reduce the potential market for getting ten D4 owners to sign up some what.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

cookey here on AULRO had series disk brakes certified by an engineer in NSW who also does work in Qld. Perhaps we need to talk to someone like him.

I'd love to upgrade, but not going to do anything like that till the vehicle is out of warranty.

[weeds]

I believe if you can find an engineer that can certify under NCOP than in theory it should be recognised across all states......I have also been told there is no monitoring/checking the scheme therefore states may baulk at it

National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification
(the NCOP).

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I wish that there was a national adoption and recognition of the modification plates, e.g. the blue plates in Qld.

In NSW you have to carry the engineers report in the vehicle, with all the deterioration that entails over years of use.

[TerryO]

Not only do you have to carry the certificate in NSW but the RTA actually want to see it and then they mark it down on the rego papers and then you have to carry the rego papers as well. At least that is what the RTA told me about 12 months ago.

[time2]

Interestingly, a dealer told me yesterday that the new RRS is complied without a GVM and so were the 2014 D4's. I wouldn't have thought that to be true but I don't have either to check.

[Meken]

You might in fact find that there are next to no mods to take the gvm up to where it maxes out the axle rating - they are probably a bit over engineered ?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not only do you have to carry the certificate in NSW but the RTA actually want to see it and then they mark it down on the rego papers and then you have to carry the rego papers as well. At least that is what the RTA told me about 12 months ago.And the RMS and Police advise not to carry the Rego papers in the vehicle in case it gets stolen. But as usual with the RMS, if you went to the Registry and went to each of eleven counters you would leave having received at least twelve different opinions.

[rufusking]

Curiosity got the better of me and I did a bit of browsing on GVM / GCM / Towing capacity. The following is from statewide4x4.com.au's FAQ's and highlights some vehicle limitations when it comes to true towing capacity. Fortunately the D3/4/sport have a true 3.5 tonne towing capacity, that is GVM + 3.5t = GCM

GVM Upgrade & GCM FAQ's / Have A Question About Your GVM Or GCM? (http://www.statewide4x4.com.au/gvm-products/faqs.aspx)

"How Much Can I Really Tow?
What a lot of vehicle manufacturers will not tell you is that towing up to your maximum towing capability can sometimes (but not always) affect the amount of weight you can carry in your vehicle.

For Example:

Ford PX Ranger: GVM 3,200kg / GCM 6,000kg

Ford advertises that the vehicle has the ability to tow 3.5T which it does, however if you take a closer look at the vehicles specifications you will see that the GCM cannot exceed 6000kg. If you take 3500kg max towing capacity from the GCM that leaves you a maximum allowable vehicle weight of only 2,500kg.

GCM: 6000kg - 3500kg (max towing) = 2,500kg

To be able to tow, 3.5T with the PX Ranger you need to take 700kg out of your maximum allowed GVM figure of 3,200kg. If you then look even further into the vehicle specifications it is even more of an eye-opener. Lets assume that you are still towing the maximum amount of 3.5T with the PX Ranger which we will say is a Dual Cab XLT.

GVM (with max towing): 2,500kg - Vehicle Tare Weight: 2,159kg = 341kg

So you are now left with a payload of 341kg. Lets take out a couple more essential items from that figure.

Payload: 341kg - Tow Ball Down Force Approx: 280kg - Fuel approx 70kg = - 9kg

So on a Ford PX Ranger XLT towing 3.5T with a full tank of fuel and approx 280kg of ball weight you are already over your GCM. Now try to add a driver, additional passengers, any luggage, a fridge, bull bar, winch etc and you will be well over your allowable limit. This makes your vehicle unroadworthy and in the case of an accident you risk voiding your insurance payout. As you can understand it is important information that the consumer really should be made aware of."

[ADMIRAL]

I had a customer today with the latest Triton dualcab, bullbar and canopy fitted. the GVM from memory was 2930KG. He tows a camper with around 200kg on the ball. I did the same exercise for him, working backwards. There's a couple kids not having breakfast before the next trip. Very close once you account for everything.

[Meken]

Curiosity got the better of me and I did a bit of browsing on GVM / GCM / Towing capacity. The following is from statewide4x4.com.au's FAQ's and highlights some vehicle limitations when it comes to true towing capacity. Fortunately the D3/4/sport have a true 3.5 tonne towing capacity, that is GVM + 3.5t = GCM

GVM Upgrade & GCM FAQ's / Have A Question About Your GVM Or GCM? (http://www.statewide4x4.com.au/gvm-products/faqs.aspx)

"How Much Can I Really Tow?
What a lot of vehicle manufacturers will not tell you is that towing up to your maximum towing capability can sometimes (but not always) affect the amount of weight you can carry in your vehicle.

For Example:

Ford PX Ranger: GVM 3,200kg / GCM 6,000kg

Ford advertises that the vehicle has the ability to tow 3.5T which it does, however if you take a closer look at the vehicles specifications you will see that the GCM cannot exceed 6000kg. If you take 3500kg max towing capacity from the GCM that leaves you a maximum allowable vehicle weight of only 2,500kg.

GCM: 6000kg - 3500kg (max towing) = 2,500kg

To be able to tow, 3.5T with the PX Ranger you need to take 700kg out of your maximum allowed GVM figure of 3,200kg. If you then look even further into the vehicle specifications it is even more of an eye-opener. Lets assume that you are still towing the maximum amount of 3.5T with the PX Ranger which we will say is a Dual Cab XLT.

GVM (with max towing): 2,500kg - Vehicle Tare Weight: 2,159kg = 341kg

So you are now left with a payload of 341kg. Lets take out a couple more essential items from that figure.

Payload: 341kg - Tow Ball Down Force Approx: 280kg - Fuel approx 70kg = - 9kg

So on a Ford PX Ranger XLT towing 3.5T with a full tank of fuel and approx 280kg of ball weight you are already over your GCM. Now try to add a driver, additional passengers, any luggage, a fridge, bull bar, winch etc and you will be well over your allowable limit. This makes your vehicle unroadworthy and in the case of an accident you risk voiding your insurance payout. As you can understand it is important information that the consumer really should be made aware of."


My Dad went through this exercise after buying a new pajero - see you pajero hello pathfinder

[scarry]

Curiosity got the better of me and I did a bit of browsing on GVM / GCM / Towing capacity. The following is from statewide4x4.com.au's FAQ's and highlights some vehicle limitations when it comes to true towing capacity. Fortunately the D3/4/sport have a true 3.5 tonne towing capacity, that is GVM + 3.5t = GCM

GVM Upgrade & GCM FAQ's / Have A Question About Your GVM Or GCM? (http://www.statewide4x4.com.au/gvm-products/faqs.aspx)

"How Much Can I Really Tow?
What a lot of vehicle manufacturers will not tell you is that towing up to your maximum towing capability can sometimes (but not always) affect the amount of weight you can carry in your vehicle.

For Example:

Ford PX Ranger: GVM 3,200kg / GCM 6,000kg

Ford advertises that the vehicle has the ability to tow 3.5T which it does, however if you take a closer look at the vehicles specifications you will see that the GCM cannot exceed 6000kg. If you take 3500kg max towing capacity from the GCM that leaves you a maximum allowable vehicle weight of only 2,500kg.

GCM: 6000kg - 3500kg (max towing) = 2,500kg

To be able to tow, 3.5T with the PX Ranger you need to take 700kg out of your maximum allowed GVM figure of 3,200kg. If you then look even further into the vehicle specifications it is even more of an eye-opener. Lets assume that you are still towing the maximum amount of 3.5T with the PX Ranger which we will say is a Dual Cab XLT.

GVM (with max towing): 2,500kg - Vehicle Tare Weight: 2,159kg = 341kg

So you are now left with a payload of 341kg. Lets take out a couple more essential items from that figure.

Payload: 341kg - Tow Ball Down Force Approx: 280kg - Fuel approx 70kg = - 9kg

So on a Ford PX Ranger XLT towing 3.5T with a full tank of fuel and approx 280kg of ball weight you are already over your GCM. Now try to add a driver, additional passengers, any luggage, a fridge, bull bar, winch etc and you will be well over your allowable limit. This makes your vehicle unroadworthy and in the case of an accident you risk voiding your insurance payout. As you can understand it is important information that the consumer really should be made aware of."

And another thing that can't be increased are maximum individual axle weights.


Its all a legal minefield.

[stray dingo]

My Dad went through this exercise after buying a new pajero - see you pajero hello pathfinder

I got rid of the Pathfinder cos of their weight restriction / sliding towball weights - as the weight increases the allowable towball weight decreased. I had a vehicle fitted out nicely, heavy but less than GVM all up, capable of towing 3000kg, and ball weight of less than 100kg.

[Redback]

Curiosity got the better of me and I did a bit of browsing on GVM / GCM / Towing capacity. The following is from statewide4x4.com.au's FAQ's and highlights some vehicle limitations when it comes to true towing capacity. Fortunately the D3/4/sport have a true 3.5 tonne towing capacity, that is GVM + 3.5t = GCM

GVM Upgrade & GCM FAQ's / Have A Question About Your GVM Or GCM? (http://www.statewide4x4.com.au/gvm-products/faqs.aspx)

"How Much Can I Really Tow?
What a lot of vehicle manufacturers will not tell you is that towing up to your maximum towing capability can sometimes (but not always) affect the amount of weight you can carry in your vehicle.

For Example:

Ford PX Ranger: GVM 3,200kg / GCM 6,000kg

Ford advertises that the vehicle has the ability to tow 3.5T which it does, however if you take a closer look at the vehicles specifications you will see that the GCM cannot exceed 6000kg. If you take 3500kg max towing capacity from the GCM that leaves you a maximum allowable vehicle weight of only 2,500kg.

GCM: 6000kg - 3500kg (max towing) = 2,500kg

To be able to tow, 3.5T with the PX Ranger you need to take 700kg out of your maximum allowed GVM figure of 3,200kg. If you then look even further into the vehicle specifications it is even more of an eye-opener. Lets assume that you are still towing the maximum amount of 3.5T with the PX Ranger which we will say is a Dual Cab XLT.

GVM (with max towing): 2,500kg - Vehicle Tare Weight: 2,159kg = 341kg

So you are now left with a payload of 341kg. Lets take out a couple more essential items from that figure.

Payload: 341kg - Tow Ball Down Force Approx: 280kg - Fuel approx 70kg = - 9kg

So on a Ford PX Ranger XLT towing 3.5T with a full tank of fuel and approx 280kg of ball weight you are already over your GCM. Now try to add a driver, additional passengers, any luggage, a fridge, bull bar, winch etc and you will be well over your allowable limit. This makes your vehicle unroadworthy and in the case of an accident you risk voiding your insurance payout. As you can understand it is important information that the consumer really should be made aware of."

Disco 2, 3 and 4 are the same, the more you tow, the less you can carry in the car.

As far as I'm aware, the Amarok is the only ute that can carry it's maximum load and still tow at it's max tow capacity of 2.8t for the early model manual and 3.0t for the later models(2012 to 2014)

Baz.

[discotwinturbo]

Disco 2, 3 and 4 are the same, the more you tow, the less you can carry in the car. As far as I'm aware, the Amarok is the only ute that can carry it's maximum load and still tow at it's max tow capacity of 2.8t for the early model manual and 3.0t for the later models(2012 to 2014) Baz.

Baz, you sure about that with the disco ?

I am sure I have read it's gvm plus 3.5 tonne....not a reduced gvm if max trailer weight is attached.

Brett...

[discotwinturbo]

This is from my manual.
It's GCM is GVM plus 3.5 tonne.

Brett...

[Meken]

Ahhh but the tow ball downforce still has to be considered as part of the gvm so in theory can you have 250 kg on the ball counted in the 3240 of the car then you get a further 3500 for the trailer (so weighed on the trailer wheels?) so in effect the total weight of the trailer could be more than 3.5t ?? Is my logic here on track or am I off on some tangent ?

[TerryO]

My understanding is its not a maximum of 3.5 ton plus the tow ball weight. The trailer/caravan, what eve,r must be no more than 3.5 ton if towed by a Disco 3/4 etc, of course it can be more if the tug is certified for more like a Silverado, F250 etc.

[ADMIRAL]

Ahhh but the tow ball downforce still has to be considered as part of the gvm so in theory can you have 250 kg on the ball counted in the 3240 of the car then you get a further 3500 for the trailer (so weighed on the trailer wheels?) so in effect the total weight of the trailer could be more than 3.5t ?? Is my logic here on track or am I off on some tangent ?

Trailer, 3.5 tonne total. The ball weight is a separate issue, and as already mentioned, becomes part of the vehicle GVM. It wouldn't matter if the ball weight was 50kg or the maximum of 350kg, the maximum trailer weight is 3.5 tonne, end of story. Also as already noted, if you went to the maximum ball weight of 350kg, it would compromise your load carrying ability within the vehicle. ( for off road touring anyway )

[Meken]

Is the trailer 3.5 t max stated elsewhere in the book? As the notes state gross train weight is the permissible combination of vehicle & trailer & each's load. Extending that theory if you lightly load the tug ( to say 3t for example) then gtm (6740) = tug (3000) + trailer (3740) - just trying to understand where the limits are specified

[Redback]

Going on the D2 manual, as the weight of the trailer increases, the load capacity decreases in the car, with the last statement being, towing at the max 3.5t, load capacity is 1 passenger and or 100kg of luggage, will need someone with a D2 to confirm that though, bad memory:(

Going on this I assumed the D3/D4 would be the same.

Baz.

PS, Brett, I can't read that, even with my glasses:angel:

[isuzurover]

Going on the D2 manual, as the weight of the trailer increases, the load capacity decreases in the car, with the last statement being, towing at the max 3.5t, load capacity is 1 passenger and or 100kg of luggage, will need someone with a D2 to confirm that though, bad memory:(

Going on this I assumed the D3/D4 would be the same.

Baz.

PS, Brett, I can't read that, even with my glasses:angel:

I would think that is based on assumed ball loads of 10% or so.

[TerryO]

Just weighed the D4, was interested to see how the V8 measured up against the diesel D4's.

Other than the slightly larger Nitto A/T's its standard, so maybe a couple of kilo's more per tyre but that's only a guess at this stage. So with a full to the brim tank it weighed 2,660 kilo's. Which I guess means its empty weight is about 2,580 kilo or so.

The manual says the V8 is 2548 kilo (from memory) so unless the Nitto's are collectively around 30 kilos more then the Pirelli's then the manual isn't correct.

[stray dingo]

Is the trailer 3.5 t max stated elsewhere in the book?

I've got on page 70
Maximum permissible towing weights
unbraked trailers: 750kg (1650 lbs)
trailers with over run brakes: 3500kg (4400 lbs)
nose weight - Aust only: 350kg

Interestingly below that is
Note: When towing, the maximum permissible Gross vehicle Weight can be increased by a maximum of 100kg (220lbs) provided that the road speed is limited to 100km/h (60mph)

If I'm towing, I'm generally not doing more than 100km/h, so I can now include the kids with a GVM of 3600kg!!! Woo Hoo

[rufusking]

Just weighed the D4, was interested to see how the V8 measured up against the diesel D4's.

Other than the slightly larger Nitto A/T's its standard, so maybe a couple of kilo's more per tyre but that's only a guess at this stage. So with a full to the brim tank it weighed 2,660 kilo's. Which I guess means its empty weight is about 2,580 kilo or so.

The manual says the V8 is 2548 kilo (from memory) so unless the Nitto's are collectively around 30 kilos more then the Pirelli's then the manual isn't correct.



Handbook weights include a full tank of fuel. That throws things further out.

[stray dingo]

Trailer, 3.5 tonne total. The ball weight is a separate issue, and as already mentioned, becomes part of the vehicle GVM.


The handbook says that the maximum towball weight of the van is 350kg. But then goes on "If the vehicle is loaded to maximum Gross Vehicle Weight the nose weight is limited to 150kg."
From that it would seem that the towball weight does not get included in the GVM of the vehicle. Otherwise surely it would change at GVM less 150kg??

However, it does specifically state that the towball weight is to be included on the rear axle loadings in a couple of places.


My last nissan was similar (in the way it is worded) whereby as long as the towball weight did not exceed 200kg, the the GVM was not affected.

[sheerluck]

......The manual says the V8 is 2548 kilo (from memory) so unless the Nitto's are collectively around 30 kilos more then the Pirelli's then the manual isn't correct.

Or you had that second pie for lunch Terry. :angel:

[dazray]

Taken from OWNER'S HANDBOOK 2013 (Issue 1) on Topix.

Australia only: Nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of gross caravan/trailer weight, up to a maximum of 250 kg (551 lb). When using the detachable drawbar receiver, See 73, FITTING THE DETACHABLE DRAWBAR RECEIVER (Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg (772 lb) if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg (441 lb). Note: When calculating rear axle loading, remember that the trailer nose weight, the load in the vehicle's luggage area, weight on the roof rack, and the weight of rear seat passengers must all be added together.

[ADMIRAL]

The handbook says that the maximum towball weight of the van is 350kg. But then goes on "If the vehicle is loaded to maximum Gross Vehicle Weight the nose weight is limited to 150kg."
From that it would seem that the towball weight does not get included in the GVM of the vehicle. Otherwise surely it would change at GVM less 150kg??

However, it does specifically state that the towball weight is to be included on the rear axle loadings in a couple of places.


My last nissan was similar (in the way it is worded) whereby as long as the towball weight did not exceed 200kg, the the GVM was not affected.

You do need to read a bit further for clarification. If a van with overrun brakes is used the nose weight limit lifts to 250kg..and then it goes on.. " However, vehicle payload must be restricted by at least the same weight to ensure that the GVW and the rear axle wieghts are not exceeded "

That certainly leaves me of the opinion that towball weight ( whatever it is ) is included in the vehicle GVM, ( as it normally is ) and LR are recommending a reduction in nose weight, possibly to reduce forward pitch with a maximum loaded vehicle.

[discotwinturbo]

It looks like explaining the theory of relativity might be easier, then explaining weights of cars and trailers lol.

Brett....

[stray dingo]

Interesting; the wording was changed between 2012 handbook and 2013.

Just looked on Topix at both years (and 2014, 2015, RRS 2012-2015)

2012
Note: When towing, the maximum permissible Gross Vehicle Weight can be increased by a maximum of 100 kg (220 lbs) provided that the road speed is limited to 100 km/h (60 mph).

Note: When calculating rear axle loading, remember that the trailer nose weight, the load in the vehicle's luggage area, weight on the roof rack, and the weight of rear seat passengers must all be added together

<next page>
If the vehicle is loaded to maximum Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) the nose weight is limited to 150 kg (330 lbs). See202, WEIGHTS.

If it is necessary to increase the nose weight up to a maximum of 250 kg (550 lbs), the vehicle load should be reduced accordingly. This ensures that the GVW and maximum rear axle load are not exceeded


2013
Note:**If the vehicle is loaded to maximum Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) the nose weight is limited to 150 kg (330 lb), so that the maximum rear axle weight is not exceeded. To increase the nose weight to the maximum 250 kg (551 lb) the GVW should be reduced by 100 kg (220 lb).

See 197, WEIGHTS, for details of the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), Gross train weight, axle weights and maximum payload.

Australia only: Nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of gross caravan/trailer weight, up to a maximum of 250 kg (551 lb).
When using the detachable drawbar receiver, See 73, FITTING THE DETACHABLE DRAWBAR RECEIVER (Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg (772 lb) if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg (441 lb).

Note:When calculating rear axle loading, remember that the trailer nose weight, the load in the vehicle's luggage area, weight on the roof rack, and the weight of rear seat passengers must all be added together

Note: When towing in the European Union (EU), the maximum permissible Gross Vehicle Weight can be increased by a maximum of 100 kg (220 lb) provided that the road speed is limited to 100 km/h (60 mph)
<no next page>

I couldn't find Admiral's statement until I looked at the RRS handbook and found it in there, but in reference to overrun brakes on a powered tow bar (I don't know what a powered tow bar is)


To me the wordings are saying very different things....
And why say is the RRS handbook to subtract it from the GVW but not the in the D4 handbook of the same years, but MY12 ones (mine) are identical

[stray dingo]

Taken from OWNER'S HANDBOOK 2013 (Issue 1) on Topix.

Australia only: Nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of gross caravan/trailer weight, up to a maximum of 250 kg (551 lb). When using the detachable drawbar receiver, See 73, FITTING THE DETACHABLE DRAWBAR RECEIVER (Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg (772 lb) if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg (441 lb). Note: When calculating rear axle loading, remember that the trailer nose weight, the load in the vehicle's luggage area, weight on the roof rack, and the weight of rear seat passengers must all be added together.

I read that as being a continuation of the previous paragraph/lines - noseweight is limited to 150kg once GVW is reached, but if you want 250kg max, then the GVW must be reduced by the equivalent amount, thus always maintaining a max of 150kg over GVW

[Tombie]

The manual says the V8 is 2548 kilo (from memory) so unless the Nitto's are collectively around 30 kilos more then the Pirelli's then the manual isn't correct.

The manual doesnt allow for options or variations either, so factor in any additions like Rear Air, Leather seats (in 5 seat version) and things like towbar (its an option remember)... And easily get a few extra kg.

Are the Nittos LT? Thats an easy 3-5kg per tyre...

[TerryO]

Tombie on the good side with the D4 V8 it comes with every single option box ticked as standard, so it has everything.

On the bad side every single one of those options weighs something so that would explain such a large discrepancy. Re the Nitto's I would be surprised if they were LT spec.

[TerryO]

Just spoke with an engineer who does vehicle Certification work for the RTA and asked about the possibility of increasing the GVM of the D3/4. He is pretty adamant that it can't be increased above the factory stated number. Reason, there is no D3/4 that has a higher GVM than 3240. However believe it or not a 110 Defender can be increased to a GVM of 3500 kg because a 130 has a GVM of 3500 kg supposedly.

Back to the drawing board.

[Meken]

So how does that logic work for 200 series cruisers gvm upgrades? I thought it would be limited by max axle loads even though in this case there is no load bearing "axle" per say

[ADMIRAL]

I think I will mark the page in the handbook. If the weights & measures boys pull me over, I will hand it to them. If they can work it out on the side of the road inside an hour, I might get a determination . Otherwise they will probably have to let me go...out of pity..maybe.

In the meantime, I will be be using the generally accepted method of calculation, just in case. Staying under the GVM ( including towball weight ), keeping the axle loads under the maximums, and under the total train weight. ( which should not be an issue, as the van is only 2500 odd kilos )

[weeds]

So how does that logic work for 200 series cruisers gvm upgrades? I thought it would be limited by max axle loads even though in this case there is no load bearing "axle" per say

The 200 is done with springs, I'm betting it the airbags that nobody has got there head around yet. The 200 still has axle limits, I am unsure if the axle limits are changed which I must ask. Pretty sure dealers of some makes offer GVM upgrade and have new compliance plates fitted.

My colleague at work has done the upgrade using the same components that's needed to have it engineered but figured it was a waste of money paying for the certification as he still exceeds what the new GVM would be.

[TerryO]

If there is a similar model that has a higher GVM then they can up spec any of the lower GVM models to the higher spec after mods.

I was told the 200 series is sold overseas with a higher GVM and the increased GVM here that ARB does is to the same amount as the overseas models. Maybe that is how they get around it.

That is how they can here up spec a Defender 110 so it has the same higher GVM as the 130. He said it had nothing really to do with air springs versus steel ones.

If there is any model D3/4 that has a higher GVM then there is a chance. I have asked in the Disco3uk forum what the GVM is of the D3/4 Commercial, so far there has been no feedback.

[AGRO]

The article describes the Armoured Disco4 with GVM (over 3500kg)

Mention of upgrades to brakes and engine is made in the article.

The world of the armoured vehicle is all heavy duty - must be something here.

Land Rover Discovery 4 Armoured | CarAdvice (http://www.caradvice.com.au/95830/land-rover-discovery-4-armoured/)

[TerryO]

It doesn't actually state what the vehicles GVM is, it says the D4 on its own weighs 3550 kg. ...:eek:

[dazray]

Land Rover Introduces Powerful New Discovery 4 Armoured Vehicle (http://newsroom.jaguarlandrover.com/de-de/land-rover/neuigkeiten/2010/12/discovery_armoured_171210/)


Land Rover Discovery 4 Armoured - Detailed Specifications
Base Vehicle Specification
5.0-litre LR-V8 direct-injection petrol engine
Maximum Power (EEC) 375 PS (276 kW)
Maximum Torque (EEC) 510 Nm (376 lb ft)
6-speed automatic transmission
Kerb weight 3550kg (excluding options)
4050kg GVW
Air conditioning
Land Rover Terrain Response® system
Off road capability (deep sand driving not recommended)
Modified suspension system to accommodate increased vehicle mass
378mm brake discs with upgraded Alcon aluminium brake callipers: 6-pot front, 4-pot rear
Tyre Pressure Monitoring System - where licensed

[dazray]

from Topix

Armoured D4
Approximate EEC kerb weights (full fuel tank) 3550 kg (7826 lb)
Maximum gross vehicle weight 4050 kg (8929 lb)
Maximum front axle load 1850 kg (4079 lb)
Maximum rear axle load 2350 kg (5181 lb)


Standard D4
Maximum gross vehicle weight 3240 kg
Maximum front axle load 1450 kg
Maximum rear axle load 1855 kg


The Armoured is greater by the flowing amounts to a standard D4.

Maximum gross vehicle weight 810 kg
Maximum front axle load 400 kg
Maximum rear axle load 495 kg

There are a whole lot of limitations put on the Armoured
Check the link below for more Info.

LSB 10 02 53 111 - Armoured Vehicle Supplement - To be read in conjunction with the Owner’s Handbook.(LRL 10 02 53 111)
https://topix.landrover.jlrext.com/topix/content/document/view?id=163197&groupId=1655#5d57e5b4-9cfc-4d24-be74-ecf62a2f8918!!4

[TerryO]

So basically the armoured D4 can carry 3 decent sized adults before its overweight.

[rufusking]

GVM - Kerb = 500kg. You must be thinking of Americans!

[TerryO]

Mathematics was never my strong point ...;) I looked at it quickly and came up with 400 kg, which would mean three of me would put it way overweight. Actually three of me nearly breaks the 500 kg limit as well. ... :eek:

Edit* ... Have now spoken with the engineer and he asked for any info re the armoured D4 to be sent to him, which I now have. Let's see where it goes from here.

[stray dingo]

nah, three sound right to me.
I've seen movies - they're big steroid built bodyguards who each carry 20 odd guns, rocket launchers and the like and enough ammo to last an hour or two till help arrives
:-)
hmmm.....maybe only 2 adults....

[stray dingo]

Ok, so I asked the question of LRA about the GVMs, tow ball weights and what not for D4s MY12-14 and RRS of same years, but specifically the MY12 being what I have.

Their answer is: that its not for them to comment on.....
And then they asked for my VIN, no doubt to put a comment in my file under the heading "reasons to refuse warranty"

[dazray]

Ok, so I asked the question of LRA about the GVMs, tow ball weights and what not for D4s MY12-14 and RRS of same years, but specifically the MY12 being what I have.

Their answer is: that its not for them to comment on.....
And then they asked for my VIN, no doubt to put a comment in my file under the heading "reasons to refuse warranty"



Did you respond with "its not for me to comment on....."
when they asked for your VIN.....

[Meken]

Surely you don't know your vin off by heart ?

[jonesy63]

I wonder if the armoured D4 has different wheel bearings, suspension parts, etc to cater for the increased weight? If so, we mortals could upgrade the parts to give a GVM increase.

[Yorkie]

So how does that logic work for 200 series cruisers gvm upgrades? I thought it would be limited by max axle loads even though in this case there is no load bearing "axle" per say


The 200 upgrade must be done before first registered so the plate does not show as a modification, lovells and arb are the two I know of that can do this.

[ADMIRAL]

I think my memory is correct - The conventional GVM upgrades usually comprise upgraded springs, shocks, and brake components. A GVM kit is tested and approved for an upgrade. This does cost in the region of $10000.00 per vehicle . A GVM upgrade can be simply lifting the overall GVM to the manufacturer maximum axle weights. The manufacturers generally have a GVM below the rated axle maximums. This can be why some GVM upgrades don't seem to offer a large increase in capacity. If the company developing the upgrade kit, wishes to push the envelope, and can get an engineer to sign off on the certification, the maximum axle weights are increased beyond the manufacturer maximums. This can be quite common on GVM upgrades seen in mine vehicles. There is a serious issue though, when taking this path. Once the manufacturer axle load maximums are exceeded, the company marketing the upgrade kit, is legally responsible ( as a secondary manufacturer ) if anything goes wrong. Axle breaks, causes accident, owner sues.

GVM kits are normally fitted before the first registration, but can be fitted later, it is just more awkward and more expensive. You have to have the vehicle inspected by an engineer. The engineer is effectively signing off that the vehicle has no non manufacturer components fitted that will impact on the GVM kit.

A final point. Once you have fitted a particular GVM kit, you are stuck with those exact components. As as already been indicated, the GVM kits are usually the same components you can buy off the shelf at your local suspension shop. The combination of components in the kit for a particular vehicle is the combination certified. You cannot fit a heavier coil or a different shock, because it takes your fancy.

Regardless of other LR models with higher GVM,s I think you can see that the only way the GVM on a D3/D4 is going to be increased, is by LR lifting it.

[SBD4]

I wonder if the armoured D4 has different wheel bearings, suspension parts, etc to cater for the increased weight? If so, we mortals could upgrade the parts to give a GVM increase.

Yes it does, all suspension components are upgraded, including some others (xmembers etc)


Mathematics was never my strong point ... I looked at it quickly and came up with 400 kg, which would mean three of me would put it way overweight. Actually three of me nearly breaks the 500 kg limit as well. ...

Edit* ... Have now spoken with the engineer and he asked for any info re the armoured D4 to be sent to him, which I now have. Let's see where it goes from here.

Terry, with the upgraded suspension less all the armouring and sundries(engine bay extinguisher, intercom, lights, exhaust armoured glass etc) the payload would be a lot more than the 500KGs stated.

[ADMIRAL]

It could be cheaper or more cost effective ( certainly more fuel efficient ) to reduce weight on a std D4. Anyone for carbon fibre or magnesium. ( or go on a diet )

[jonesy63]

Lots of "speed holes"? :wasntme::D

[BobD]

Getting rid of the car's "balls" would be a good start, with probably no perceptible effect on anything!


Bob

[Tombie]

Getting rid of the car's "balls" would be a good start, with probably no perceptible effect on anything!


Bob


Effect is perceptible - the NVH increases are noticeable - I had the rear ones jammed solid from being bogged (and then drying solid)

There is a damn good reason dampers are fitted, let's face it - the engineers don't go shoving that type of gear on where not needed to meet a purpose.

The design of these vehicles can transmit NVH quite remarkably without these measures in place.

The D4 has one of the better payload ratings already in its class... If needs require more than a trailer, or a larger class of vehicle (Iveco etc) should be considered.

[gghaggis]

It could be cheaper or more cost effective ( certainly more fuel efficient ) to reduce weight on a std D4. Anyone for carbon fibre or magnesium. ( or go on a diet )

I'd be wary how much you strip off. My cousin prepares rally cars in Kenya, and was asked to do a Supercharged Sport. They dropped around 500 kg from the car and then couldn't get it to move - apparently the body-control computer shut it down! Don't know the exact details, but they had to add a fair bit back before the computer said "yes".

Cheers,

Gordon

[BobD]

Probably correct Gordon but those of us with Kaymar rear bar, extra spare tyre on a steel rim, long range fuel tank, bull bar, Mitch Hitch and dual battery system could certainly remove a lot of weight without upsetting the body ECU!


I expect that in my D4 all of these extras would have a bigger detrimental effect on NVH than the removal of the car's "balls" would, in real life situations, although I don't want to find out. It is so good at 160,000km that I don't want to change anything.


The only unwanted noise in mine is a slight noise at the rear, which could be tailgate seals making a noise or something to do with the spare tyre on the Kaymar bar. I can't really hear it enough to track it down.


Bob

[GP1200]

Can we stop talking about all the ball removing!
I'm starting to hear a shaking noise from the garage:spudnikdiscoball::spudnikdiscoball::spudnik discoball:

[ADMIRAL]

I'd be wary how much you strip off. My cousin prepares rally cars in Kenya, and was asked to do a Supercharged Sport. They dropped around 500 kg from the car and then couldn't get it to move - apparently the body-control computer shut it down! Don't know the exact details, but they had to add a fair bit back before the computer said "yes".

Cheers,

Gordon

I doubt it would be an issue in this case, as the objective is to enable more weight to be carried. It should be a transfer. Bullbar, roofrack, spare wheel, drawer set, and aux tank in, equivalent weight out.

[Tombie]

How about:
Carry less stuff :)
Use lightweight composite for draws
Lose the 2nd spare - never carried one, ever.... That's a ridiculous amount of weight and more likely to induce a failure.
Build rear bar from alloy over a reinforced steel mount for spare wheel to reduce weight.
Use lightweight gear in the vehicle, microfiber towels, lightweight accessories etc...

People carry far too much crap now... :D :) :D

[BobD]

Tombie,


I agree entirely, except about the spare. Due to the weight, I would never get another Kaymar rear bar. However, in remote areas with tyres that are relatively rare, I reckon a second spare is essential.


I have never yet needed the second one on my car but sometimes the same obstacle can cause damage on two tyres on the same side. After a limestone rock slashed the sidewall on both front and rear tyres on my son's D1 on a remote sand track about 150km from Perth, I vowed never to go into remote areas with only one spare, especially with tyre and wheel sizes that do not fit Patrols or Cruisers, which one is most likely to come across out on the tracks.


In this case, my Patrol also ran over the same rock hidden in the bush with both tyres. With Kevlar sidewalls and a bit of luck I didn't damage either tyre but if I had, I only had one spare also and we would have both been struck there. As it was, I did a 300km round trip in the Patrol to get the spare off my mates D1 and get my son's car out of the track just on sunset.


Bob

[Tombie]

Carcass and changing gear, tubes and patches weigh a lot less :)

[JamesH]

I believe too in the second spare though I take Tombie's point. I'm on holiday and changing a tryre carcass is not something I want to spend tme on. I get a flat, I chuck on the spare. At the next town I give it to a tryre shop to fix. I take the 2nd spare because I believe the chances of two flats betwen towns warrants it.

This was in the day of the Defender when actually changing over a carcass was quite doable. What I'm going to do about a 2nd spare for the D4 (19") I don't know. I worry about tyres and touring a lot for my D4. Everything about the car is brilliant except for wheels and tyres in remote travel, I have this big question mark on that issue.

[isuzurover]

... I take the 2nd spare because I believe the chances of two flats betwen towns warrants it.
...


The chances of 2 flats [or more accurately 2 carcass failures / stakes) between town/cities is quite small IME.

I carry a 2nd carcass and a set of 3 tyre levers, plus a full set of ARB patches and plugs. I have only needed to use the levers "in the field" once - on a friend's nissan. However have used them several times at home to keep my hand in.

I have used the plugs several times though.

Changing a tyre on/off a rim should only take 30 minutes at most.

[TerryO]

The chances of 2 flats between town/cities is quite small IME.

I carry a 2nd carcass and a set of 3 tyre levers. I have only needed to use them "in the field" once - on a friend's nissan. However have used them several times at home to keep my hand in.

Changing a tyre on/off a rim should only take 30 minutes at most.

I agree the chances are quite low, however from what I'm told changing tyres on a 16" rim is a lot easier than on a 18" or 19" mag. Not many punters I have ever met, even those who are avid long time four wheel drivers, could change tyres on a rim on the side of the road with tyre levers. I actually own a tyre machine and even with that it can be fun. That being the case for many people a second complete rim fitted with a tyre ready to go is the only viable option.

[weeds]

The chances of 2 flats [or more accurately 2 carcass failures / stakes) between town/cities is quite small IME.

I carry a 2nd carcass and a set of 3 tyre levers, plus a full set of ARB patches and plugs. I have only needed to use the levers "in the field" once - on a friend's nissan. However have used them several times at home to keep my hand in.

I have used the plugs several times though.

Changing a tyre on/off a rim should only take 30 minutes at most.

30min.......don't reckon too many punters could achieve that. Most punter cannot even change a flat tyre than alone consider a carcuss

In my younger days I could probably smash one out in 30 but an hour would have been the norm.

[Redback]

The chances of 2 flats [or more accurately 2 carcass failures / stakes) between town/cities is quite small IME.

I carry a 2nd carcass and a set of 3 tyre levers, plus a full set of ARB patches and plugs. I have only needed to use the levers "in the field" once - on a friend's nissan. However have used them several times at home to keep my hand in.

I have used the plugs several times though.

Changing a tyre on/off a rim should only take 30 minutes at most.

It is very difficult to remove a tyre from the D3/D4 17", 18", 19" rims, just breaking the bead it near imposible, most of the current beadbreakers won't work on these rims, I know I bent my R&R Beadbreaker getting a tyre off a RRS 19" rim, not only that, it takes a lot of strength to do it, so if you're, post 55yrs of age and not fit, chances are, you will not be able to do it.

Another point is the sidewall height, the lower profile tyre usually don't cope once you get a flat and by the time you realise and stop, the tyre is stuffed.

Baz.

[isuzurover]

It is very difficult to remove a tyre from the D3/D4 17", 18", 19" rims, just breaking the bead it near imposible, most of the current beadbreakers won't work on these rims, I know I bent my R&R Beadbreaker getting a tyre off a RRS 19" rim, not only that, it takes a lot of strength to do it, so if you're, post 55yrs of age and not fit, chances are, you will not be able to do it.

Another point is the sidewall height, the lower profile tyre usually don't cope once you get a flat and by the time you realise and stop, the tyre is stuffed.

Baz.

We are only tallking about needing to do this if the tyre is stuffed. If it is repairable then plugs can be used (at least temporarily). If the tyre is stuffed you can cut it off the rim - tools for doing this won't weigh much.

The right approach and some soapy water will get the new carcass on fairly easily.

[BobD]

Plugs are an option for me but not removing a D4 tyre from the rim to patch or replace a carcass. I always carry a plug kit and have used it once on the D4 and several times on other people's cars.


I have had three D4 tyres destroyed and unrepairable on remote travels leaving me with one spare for 1000km of remote rough roads to the next place that may have tyres on some occasions. I don't even like that, let alone only having one spare all the time.


One was between Alice Springs and Kununurra where a stone put a 60mm slot in a sidewall and the most recent was a chain saw adjuster (like a T handled screw driver) at Litchfield, which went through the tyre and punctured the GOE rim before bending. On my most recent trip two weeks ago to Mt Augustus a stone somehow penetrated the tread of a D697 LT tyre and we could plug that as it was only a small hole.


I run D697 285 x 60 R18 tyres on GOE rims for remote travels and I managed to find one Dunlop tyre of that size on the shelf in Darwin after checking at several tyre shops. It is an uncommon Landcruiser size but it is more available than most other sizes for a D4.


Bob

[jon3950]

How about:
Carry less stuff :)
Use lightweight composite for draws
Lose the 2nd spare - never carried one, ever.... That's a ridiculous amount of weight and more likely to induce a failure.
Build rear bar from alloy over a reinforced steel mount for spare wheel to reduce weight.
Use lightweight gear in the vehicle, microfiber towels, lightweight accessories etc...

People carry far too much crap now... :D :) :D

Couldn't agree more. It amazes me how much more crap we carry these days - and we pack light.

Do like to carry a second spare though - the price of running on 19" rims, but I only carry a carcass.

Cheers,
Jon

[stray dingo]

How about:
Carry less stuff :)

People carry far too much crap now... :D :) :D

So which family members do I carry less of......? :p
Might be fine if there's only a driver and navigator - but some of us have three teens in the back too - there's over half the load capacity right there in 5 passengers :)

[Meken]

Well now teens... Have them leave their devices home there's your problem!

[Tombie]

So which family members do I carry less of......? :p
Might be fine if there's only a driver and navigator - but some of us have three teens in the back too - there's over half the load capacity right there in 5 passengers :)


You tow a trailer :)

There's 3 or 4 on the market right now that weight next to nothing, strong offroad design - to carry those extra necessities :)

[TerryO]

You tow a trailer :)

There's 3 or 4 on the market right now that weight next to nothing, strong offroad design - to carry those extra necessities :)

If you have the links Tombie to the trailers I'm sure people would like to check them out.

[Tombie]

If you have the links Tombie to the trailers I'm sure people would like to check them out.


Will dig them out and post :)

[Disco W.A]

one of these would be awesome


Mate Models | (http://tracktrailer.com.au/mate/mate-models/)

[stray dingo]

You tow a trailer :)

There's 3 or 4 on the market right now that weight next to nothing, strong offroad design - to carry those extra necessities :)

I don't think its legal to put a family member in a trailer....

That was the original intent when I started this thread.
I've set the car up 'mildly' for touring, (added a bar, 80lt tank, battery drawers, etc), plus family left me 150kg over GVM....before towball weight added (if required)

I've now removed the rear seat, the drawers are on ebay, the drop slide got returned, the cargo in the van. The back of the D4 is now empty.

So....I either don't fill the long range tank, or leave a kid behind. Like I said, if only a driver and navigator, very easy to keep under weight....

(LRA rang yesterday to say they will respond in writing today about the towball weight included in GVM or additional to it)

[Redback]

one of these would be awesome


Mate Models | (http://tracktrailer.com.au/mate/mate-models/)

A box trailer for $14,300, unbelievable:eek:

[gghaggis]

A box trailer for $14,300, unbelievable:eek:

These are a little more realistic!

Stockman Products - Pricing (http://podtrailer.com.au/pricing.html)

Cheers,

Gordon

[ADMIRAL]

(LRA rang yesterday to say they will respond in writing today about the towball weight included in GVM or additional to it)[/QUOTE]

Certainly interested in that response. The Queensland Dept. of Transport includes it on their website. I believe this is the interpretation of the other states also.

[stray dingo]

Sorry - been away....

the response was


Thank you for your enquiry regarding towing.

The information in the Owner's Hand Book lists World Wide Market requirements on towing however, the Australian section is included in “Towing and Towing Weights” sections.

If it is necessary to increase the nose weight up to a maximum of 250kg (Australia 350kg) the vehicle load should be reduced accordingly. This ensures that the GVW and maximum rear axle load are not exceeded.

As a recommendation the caravan/trailer nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of caravan/trailer weight up to a maximum of 350kg ensuring that the rear axle load and GVW are not exceeded.

Overrun Brakes cover electrical operated braking systems and Australian State and Territory laws apply to the kg figure for overrun brake systems.

Unfortunately, we are unable to comment further, here at Land Rover Customer Care. Please take your vehicle into your closest authorised Land Rover Dealership. You can obtain all the relevant contact details of your local retailer by visiting our website www.landrover.com.au (http://www.landrover.com.au/) and by clicking on the ‘locate a dealership’ tab.


I wasn't convinced that answer the questions I put to them, but thats all I'm getting from them. A few extra words were conveniently added into the statements above which isn't in the handbook which changes the meaning totally, and also individual lines provided rather than including the preceding lines, or reading the section as a whole.

I referred it elsewhere and it was suggested that the handbook is badly worded and if it came down to it and I was willing to fight any infringement, then it is likely I could have it thrown out as my interpretation is still reasonable.....

In the meantime, I have reduced the weight as much as possible so at worst interpretation I'm 90kg over limit, or 10kg if I don't fill the second tank. (But the kids will only ever get bigger).

[Stuart02]

I'm gathering no-one's got any suggestions re GVM upgrades for these cars? Seems the first thing to do on the RRS would be to get Discovery Rims... and start working on sourcing a decent touring trailer!

[Redback]

I would suspect that the lower control arm bushes wouldn't cope with the extra weight you put on the car after the upgrade.

I have since found that the D4 is the only true 3500kg tow vehicle on the market.


https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/

Baz.

[Stuart02]

I would suspect that the lower control arm bushes wouldn't cope with the extra weight you put on the car after the upgrade.

I have since found that the D4 is the only true 3500kg tow vehicle on the market.


https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/

Baz.

Yes when you start thinking about what might fail first there's a lot of engineering to consider.
Despite being a legit 3500kg tug, the L320 RRS TDV8 only has about 530 kg payload, so a family of four plus even 200 kg on the towball barely leaves space for a dual battery system and a full fridge, let alone any roof rack or long range tank malarkey!

[jonesy63]

There is a way to increase the D4 GVM to 4050kg - the same as the armoured D4... the problem is that sourcing all the parts will be very expensive and you may be forced to also upgrade to the same 6-pot oversized brakes... meaning your choice of tyres will somewhat disappear.

[Tombie]

Yes when you start thinking about what might fail first there's a lot of engineering to consider.
Despite being a legit 3500kg tug, the L320 RRS TDV8 only has about 530 kg payload, so a family of four plus even 200 kg on the towball barely leaves space for a dual battery system and a full fridge, let alone any roof rack or long range tank malarkey!


The 200kg on the ball doesn't come off of the payload according to LR.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

can we see that on LR letterhead Mr Tombie?:angel:

[Stuart02]

There is a way to increase the D4 GVM to 4050kg - the same as the armoured D4... the problem is that sourcing all the parts will be very expensive and you may be forced to also upgrade to the same 6-pot oversized brakes... meaning your choice of tyres will somewhat disappear.

Yeah wow. Already got big brakes and maybe even the heavier duty control arms on the RRS, I wonder what else is required...

[Stuart02]

The 200kg on the ball doesn't come off of the payload according to LR.

That would be quite extraordinary!

[TerryO]

I have spoke several times, when this thread started, with a engineer in NSW who does this work and he was quite happy to do the testing and increase the GVM of D3/4's if the vehicle passed the tests. It was going to cost around $1,800 from memory. I know others on here who have increased the GVM of Defenders with the same engineer.

I asked what he thought the increase might be and he said it if passed then it more then likely wouldn't be a large amount but it would be some. What does that mean? Only time would have told if I had gone ahead with it but I had spoken originally about needing up to another 150 kg if possible.

As for possible shortened life expectancy of lower control bushes etc then that is a wear and tear issue nothing else. If you want to carry more weight and have the GVm increased legally and are prepared to pay the extra maintenance costs involved then that's your choice.

[Stuart02]

The 200kg on the ball doesn't come off of the payload according to LR.

I've taken the drastic measure of opening the manual and so far I've found a reference to it being ok on Europe to exceed the GVM by 100 kg when towing. So not even an engineering thing. The book seems - quite rightly - concerned with axle loads more than anything. Tricky for those playing at home!

[Stuart02]

Also - if vehicle loaded to GVM then ball weight must be limited to 150 kg, if trailer braked then 250 kg. However vehicle payload must be restricted by at least the same amount to ensure GVM and axle weights aren't exceeded.
So ball weight has to be at least 7% of trailer mass which is... 245 kg for 3.5t. That's some pretty neat maths!

[jonesy63]

I have spoke several times, when this thread started, with a engineer in NSW who does this work and he was quite happy to do the testing and increase the GVM of D3/4's if the vehicle passed the tests.
Hey Terry,
Did you mention to the engineer about the existence of the armoured D3/D4 in other markets? Their suspension arms, bearings, bushes, etc are designed to handle their GVM of 4050kg.

Thinking about this some more - the other items which might need to get upgraded, are the wheels. The 930-950kg rated LR wheels would need to go. Then the big question would be whether we would really need to go to the 6-pot callipers/big brake solution used on the armoured D3/D4.

[TerryO]

As I said Rob, I only asked about the possibility of around a 150 kg to maybe a 200 kg increase. I had mentioned that there was a armoured D4 with a 4050 GVM and he was not that positive about that kind of increase.

If it was possibly to increase the GVM by 150 kg then a D4's new GVM would become 3390 kg, that is not a major increase, so not sure why the wheels would need to be changed if they are rated at 930 to 950 kg each?

I worked out that a increase 150 kg would allow all the mods I would like and to tow a van the size I am considering. Remember an increase in GVM does not flow onto a increase in GCM, that remains the same.

[Graeme]

Then the big question would be whether we would really need to go to the 6-pot callipers/big brake solution used on the armoured D3/D4.I went form a D4 fitted with 2.7 brakes to a RRV with 6-pot Brembos and the D4's 2.7 brakes are sharper at my speeds up to 100 kph at least. On a final short drive in the D4 last week I was over-braking in traffic using the same pedal pressure as I use for the RRV yet the RRV is only around 100 kg heavier than the D4.

[jonesy63]

As I said Rob, I only asked about the possibility of around a 150 kg to maybe a 200 kg increase.
Yes - you've mentioned that already a couple of times before. :p

I had mentioned that there was a armoured D4 with a 4050 GVM and he was not that positive about that kind of increase. You hadn't said this bit. I am also wondering why the engineer thinks he knows more than the LR engineers? Maybe he meant while keeping standard LR 3L brakes and wheels?

If it was possibly to increase the GVM by 150 kg then a D4's new GVM would become 3390 kg, that is not a major increase, so not sure why the wheels would need to be changed if they are rated at 930 to 950 kg each?
They wouldn't - but wheels would need to be changed if moving to GVM of 4050kg.

[Stuart02]

I went form a D4 fitted with 2.7 brakes to a RRV with 6-pot Brembos and the D4's 2.7 brakes are sharper at my speeds up to 100 kph at least. On a final short drive in the D4 last week I was over-braking in traffic using the same pedal pressure as I use for the RRV yet the RRV is only around 100 kg heavier than the D4.

Maybe more about disc size and fade than outright braking power? I had the same feeling comparing our big-braked RRS to our previous 2.7 D4, but the D4 needed new pads and rotors by 60 000 kms so perhaps there's different softer materials being used too?

[Stuart02]

I had mentioned that there was a armoured D4 with a 4050 GVM and he was not that positive about that kind of increase.


I suppose if nothing else it wouldn't do much for the ride quality if the suspension was designed for an extra 400 or 500 kg than it was carrying.

[gusthedog]

Why not just carry less **** and have a smaller, lighter trailer? :wasntme:

Do you really need all that bar work, tyres, and fuel for 99% of the time? Why not a smaller trailer? Seriously. Do you actually need all that room in your van? It seems to me that there is plenty of available GVM and GCM in most 4wds but people take waaaay too much crap with them. Go on an equipment diet and get out there and enjoy the world. Stop lusting after things you don't really need.

(Now crouching preparing for the onslaught of the "but I need a microwave and satellite dish to enjoy the bush" brigade.) 😃

[Stuart02]

Why not just carry less **** and have a smaller, lighter trailer? :wasntme:

Do you really need all that bar work, tyres, and fuel for 99% of the time? Why not a smaller trailer? Seriously. Do you actually need all that room in your van? It seems to me that there is plenty of available GVM and GCM in most 4wds but people take waaaay too much crap with them. Go on an equipment diet and get out there and enjoy the world. Stop lusting after things you don't really need.

(Now crouching preparing for the onslaught of the "but I need a microwave and satellite dish to enjoy the bush" brigade.) 😃

You clearly don't have small kids or a wife that won't enjoy camping without her creature comforts! I happily sleep under a tarp and live on baked beans and two minute noodles :)

[gusthedog]

You clearly don't have small kids or a wife that won't enjoy camping without her creature comforts! I happily sleep under a tarp and live on baked beans and two minute noodles :)

Nah Stuart, I just married the right woman. :wasntme: I have a nearly three year old, an 18 month old and a pregnant wife. We get by fine with our D2 and xtrail camper trailer. I can carry 3 jerries of diesel in a special compartment so don't need a long range tank, have a shower, toilet and fridge on board and a super comfy inner spring queen size mattress. My wife is happy as :D.

A cheaper option for many who aren't already hitched and have needy children is to survey a prospective mate to determine what "creature comforts" they'll need when camping. Scratch anyone off the list who won't poo in a hole in the ground. :Rolling:

[Stuart02]

Nah Stuart, I just married the right woman. :wasntme: I have a nearly three year old, an 18 month old and a pregnant wife. We get by fine with our D2 and xtrail camper trailer. I can carry 3 jerries of diesel in a special compartment so don't need a long range tank, have a shower, toilet and fridge on board and a super comfy inner spring queen size mattress. My wife is happy as :D.

A cheaper option for many who aren't already hitched and have needy children is to survey a prospective mate to determine what "creature comforts" they'll need when camping. Scratch anyone off the list who won't poo in a hole in the ground. :Rolling:

Now ya tell me ;)

[Tombie]

Mine even brings along her own Land Rover :)

[Stuart02]

Mine even brings along her own Land Rover :)

Even worse, mine talked me into selling my D2... I don't think she realised she'd never hear the end of it :)

[Tombie]

Even worse, mine talked me into selling my D2... I don't think she realised she'd never hear the end of it :)


We sold the D2 to my son. Still in the family.

And my sister purchased Dads D3...

We have a few :)