Bull bar blitz: rural drivers fined

[Basil135]

The old 5 post bars have had their day:

Bull bar blitz: rural drivers fined | Goulburn Post (http://www.goulburnpost.com.au/story/2431123/bull-bar-blitz-rural-drivers-fined/)

[nugge t]

This could really be jsut the tip of the iceberg. Whilst I dont personally like the 4 and 5 poster style, I am told that the ADR site now has a big red cross through them for trucks.

The really interesting area may well become what constitutes "make the car wider".

Some believe that the widest part is the guard, some the flare on the guard and some the door line. The would be plenty of bars in trouble if it is the door line or even the guard.

From what I am hearing from within the industry what constitutes "sharp" is also coming under the microscope.

What I also find interesting is if the law has been in since 2003 in NSW, why has it suddenly become an issue. Why have they waited 11 years to tackle it and it would seem only in certain regions.

[BMKal]

Could just be that people are sick of seeing complete ******* driving around in rubbish like this ...................

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/929.jpg

And the blitz reported was in Tamworth .............. now why doesn't that surprise me .............. yeeeee hawwwww.

Personally, I don't have any problem at all with them throwing anything with this type of rubbish bolted to it off the road. This is just the sort of thing that gives the likes of Scruby and his mates the ammunition they need to have all bullbars banned. :censored:

[nugge t]

They are everywhere on the Darling Downs as well mainly on Toyotas...another surprise :D

[Scallops]

It also says the bar must slope back toward the car......don't think an ARB Defy bar does - mine is vertical. :eek:

(looking again - the vertical braces do - I guess that is all that is needed to comply)

[Saitch]

It also says the bar must slope back toward the car......don't think an ARB Defy bar does - mine is vertical. :eek:

(looking again - the vertical braces do - I guess that is all that is needed to comply)
Mine slope back if I'm parked up hill:)

[Rosco8]

It also says the bar must slope back toward the car......don't think an ARB Defy bar does - mine is vertical. :eek:


They need to lean slightly forward.

After the cyclone Tracy in Darwin 1974, I was tasked in taking my mates parents Nissan Patrol and trailer south to Adelaide, fully loaded including my Yammie 650 bike and his parents tool chests. We were heavy.

Just before Hayes Creek in the evening I came over a big hill and was accelerating down hill when the lights lit up a herd of cattle across the bottom. The bull bar saved our bacon, why, because it was real solid, lent forward slightly and to each side so enabled 2 of the 3 I hit to roll down and away from the vehicle. I hit them at 55mph, was a slow as i could get. The 1st spun off to the left, the 2nd to the right, the 3rd just seemed stuck in the middle of the bull bar, I could see that the bull bar was now bent back to touching the bonnet, so was leaning back, so the 3rd just hung on the front, eventually worked its way across and under the left wheels, well the fore legs did .. we stopped, the 1st 2 I hit moved on with the mob, the 3rd had broken legs . The Nissan, well we drove it to Alice Springs, tough car, only the bull bar showed any damage.

So I am convinced thru my experience a good bull bar is one that is built tough, works in moving what you strike off to the side.

Those ones in the pictures .. jeez ya must be joking .. be useful in a Mad Max movie though !!!

[PhilipA]

ADRs require that the bumper bar be the most forward part of a bullbar ie the loop etc must be behind the front extent of the bumper.

AFAIK , you can have an upright loop as long as it is behind the front of the bumper.
When we were importing VPR and other US bullbars , the main fail for ADR was that they often leaned forward.
I think the idea behind the ADR is that if you hit a pedestrian, they are rolled over the bonnet and not run over.
Same reason that rocket launchers etc are not allowed, and neither are towing eyes on teh front of the bumper.

Leaning forward bullbars will help with something short but do nothing if you hit a camel or horse or a high jumping roo.

Regards Philip A

[crash]

They need to lean slightly forward.

After the cyclone Tracy in Darwin 1974, I was tasked in taking my mates parents Nissan Patrol and trailer south to Adelaide, fully loaded including my Yammie 650 bike and his parents tool chests. We were heavy.

Just before Hayes Creek in the evening I came over a big hill and was accelerating down hill when the lights lit up a herd of cattle across the bottom. The bull bar saved our bacon, why, because it was real solid, lent forward slightly and to each side so enabled 2 of the 3 I hit to roll down and away from the vehicle. I hit them at 55mph, was a slow as i could get. The 1st spun off to the left, the 2nd to the right, the 3rd just seemed stuck in the middle of the bull bar, I could see that the bull bar was now bent back to touching the bonnet, so was leaning back, so the 3rd just hung on the front, eventually worked its way across and under the left wheels, well the fore legs did .. we stopped, the 1st 2 I hit moved on with the mob, the 3rd had broken legs . The Nissan, well we drove it to Alice Springs, tough car, only the bull bar showed any damage.

So I am convinced thru my experience a good bull bar is one that is built tough, works in moving what you strike off to the side.

Those ones in the pictures .. jeez ya must be joking .. be useful in a Mad Max movie though !!!
That is the way the older bull bars were designed to do, if you hit a pedestrian you stood a good cahnce of running them over after you hit them. They now want vehicles / bullbars designed not to knock them over onto the ground but to fall onto the bonnet minimising pedestrian injuries. It is no longer about protecting the vehicle but protecting pedestrians.

[Meken]

Some of the latest European cars have airbags under the bonnet to lift it up the rear at the instant of a (pedestrian) impact and then it lowers as the pedestrian impacts the bonnet to cushion the forces of the head & upper body slamming into the bonnet... Now there's an idea for these 5 posters whack on a few airbags to protect the peds. :)

[Meken]

Could just be that people are sick of seeing complete ******* driving around in rubbish like this ...................



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/929.jpg



And the blitz reported was in Tamworth .............. now why doesn't that surprise me .............. yeeeee hawwwww.



Personally, I don't have any problem at all with them throwing anything with this type of rubbish bolted to it off the road. This is just the sort of thing that gives the likes of Scruby and his mates the ammunition they need to have all bullbars banned. :censored:


The engineers who spent hundreds of hours in the wind tunnel trying to reduce drag would be mighty impressed to see that up front

[Toxic_Avenger]

This could really be jsut the tip of the iceberg. Whilst I dont personally like the 4 and 5 poster style, I am told that the ADR site now has a big red cross through them for trucks.


A volvo FH B-Double at work hit a mob of 'roos up near Lightning Ridge. The repair bill was close to $17K.
Bugger the wildlife, it's a protective item for your truck. Someone has to subsidise those sort of repair bills.


Could just be that people are sick of seeing complete ******* driving around in rubbish like this ...................

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/929.jpg

And the blitz reported was in Tamworth .............. now why doesn't that surprise me .............. yeeeee hawwwww.


While I agree that the feral ute scene is full retard, I might take the opportunity to say that not all of Tamworth is like this.

[Roverlord off road spares]

A volvo FH B-Double at work hit a mob of 'roos up near Lightning Ridge. The repair bill was close to $17K.
Bugger the wildlife, it's a protective item for your truck. Someone has to subsidise those sort of repair bills.



While I agree that the feral ute scene is full retard, I might take the opportunity to say that not all of Tamworth is like this.
Mad Max Beyond Thunder "CHROME".

[Tote]

Will be interesting to see how the manufacturers of Tuff Bullbars react to the crackdown, they claim to be ADR compliant and are of the 5 post variety that the police are targeting. Also made in QLD so more prevalent as you head north in NSW
Bullbar Brushrails Nudgebars Sportsbars Sidesteps Tuff Bullbars Australia 4x4 4wd Accessories (http://www.tuffbullbars.com/)

Not to everyone's taste but effective in areas where multiple roo strikes are a fact of life.
The bar on the purple ute pictured is unlikely to be ADR compliant (or particularly useful) though....

Regards,
Tote

[wardy1]

I have to say that the bar on that ute is just all **** factor. Just WHAT is it attached to anyway?
I have an ARB steel bar and wouldn't seriously head outback without it. But the bullbar has almost become a compulsory accessory even for the Toorak Tractors...... necessary? I think not

[Roverlord off road spares]

The old 5 post bars have had their day:

Bull bar blitz: rural drivers fined | Goulburn Post (http://www.goulburnpost.com.au/story/2431123/bull-bar-blitz-rural-drivers-fined/)

Really the one in the link is over the top, the car is so illegally lowered and the bar would spray sparks all over the place when it hits a dip in the road or pot hole. They should also act on the sellers of these things. Just like those other not road legal things sold in Auto part shops. Illegal lighting etc, if it's offered for sale then the punters are going to shop and buy these things. This loop hole for sellers " not for on road use " is a joke as people don't head to that

[V8Ian]

Really the one in the link is over the top, the car is so illegally lowered and the bar would spray sparks all over the place when it hits a dip in the road or pot hole. They should also act on the sellers of these things. Just like those other not road legal things sold in Auto part shops. Illegal lighting etc, if it's offered for sale then the punters are going to shop and buy these things. This loop hole for sellers " not for on road use " is a joke as people don't head to that
It's not lowered, the bar is dragging it down. :D

[sheerluck]

It's not lowered, the bar is dragging it down. :D

Might be worthwhile installing some castors under the front of the bar. It'll look more like a Woolies shopping trolley then. ;)

[V8Ian]

Might be worthwhile installing some castors under the front of the bar. It'll look more like a Woolies shopping trolley then. ;)And handle like one.

[workingonit]

Fifth Gear - Pedestrian Safety In Car Collisions Pt.2 - looks like RRC drivers will have to remove their air intakes :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aCumC7sJIg

[Stuck]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/929.jpg


It's not about deflecting wildlife. It's about the counter balance effect to get the back wheels off of the ground for circle work. :D

[Roverlord off road spares]

Fifth Gear - Pedestrian Safety In Car Collisions Pt.2 - looks like RRC drivers will have to remove their air intakes :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aCumC7sJIg

Pedestrian airbags on the front of cars...... what they also need is a large hammer on an arm that extends out from the bonnet and clobbers those idiot pedestrians that walk out in front of cars as they are caught up in their own little world with a mobile phone texting of talking.:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:

[BMKal]

While I agree that the feral ute scene is full retard, I might take the opportunity to say that not all of Tamworth is like this.

Definitely agree with this - I used to have some good friends who lived in Tamworth and they were pretty pee'd off with some of the "ferals" who used to get around in vehicles like this.

I think that most of the problem is with "outsiders" who congregate in the area at certain times of the year. We see the same in Kalgoorlie. ;)

[rick130]

Oh well, the old Deefer bar must be OK as I've passed quite a few Oxley Command Highway Patrol cars over the last few weeks :D

[BMKal]

The bar on my old "F" truck probably wouldn't pass today's standards. Can't think of any other style that really suited these things though. :p

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/911.jpg

But I draw the line at some of the really "over the top" massive chrome bars that I've seen some people fit on these. :o

[Grumbles]

I think our legislators are morally bankrupt when they introduce new motor vehicle legislation and then apply it retrospectively across the years. :mad:

[Redback]

The bar on my old "F" truck probably wouldn't pass today's standards. Can't think of any other style that really suited these things though. :p

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/911.jpg

But I draw the line at some of the really "over the top" massive chrome bars that I've seen some people fit on these. :o

Nice, I like F-Trucks, here's my old F100:D
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bazzar/media/Scan014.jpg.html)

Baz.

[PhilipA]

This bullbar legislation and the banning of five posters has been around for years, I think at least 10 and maybe 20.
To plead ignorance as is reported is just not credible both from a manufacturer and buyer's point of view.

I can tell you my boss was very aware that his imported bullbars did not meet ADRs and the customers asked the question nearly every time. Some chose not to buy but others decided that "the look" was more important to them than the insurance .

You still see rocket launchers, when any intelligent person knows that they could slice and dice pedestrians.

I noted on last week's news that the cops had a Channel 7? bloke with them and they were pulling over 4x4s with lights on the cab, yet I saw one this morning .

The fact that the cops don't bother to enforce the law means there is no real incentive to obey it, but just don't whinge when you get caught and fined.
Luck of the draw.
Regards Philip A

[Roverlord off road spares]

This bullbar legislation and the banning of five posters has been around for years, I think at least 10 and maybe 20.
To plead ignorance as is reported is just not credible both from a manufacturer and buyer's point of view.

I can tell you my boss was very aware that his imported bullbars did not meet ADRs and the customers asked the question nearly every time. Some chose not to buy but others decided that "the look" was more important to them than the insurance .

You still see rocket launchers, when any intelligent person knows that they could slice and dice pedestrians.

I noted on last week's news that the cops had a Channel 7? bloke with them and they were pulling over 4x4s with lights on the cab, yet I saw one this morning .

The fact that the cops don't bother to enforce the law means there is no real incentive to obey it, but just don't whinge when you get caught and fined.
Luck of the draw.
Regards Philip A
Philip, the Rocket launchers must be a QLD thing, places like Fraser Island etc , a bull bar carrying surf rods and a alvey side cast reel.
Since we aren't allowed to drive on the beach in Victoria we don't really see those accessories. I wonder if LED Light bars on top of bull bars have been approved for pedestrian cut wounds etc.

I wonder what statistics there actually are that give a number of pedestrians hit by a vehicle with a bull bar? How many pedestrians are hit by a bus? How many pedestrians actually walk out into traffic without looking and are hit by a vehicle, how many were on mobile phones at the time?

[frantic]

I think our legislators are morally bankrupt when they introduce new motor vehicle legislation and then apply it retrospectively across the years. :mad:

It's not retrospective, it's been around for 10 years +. The main difference is, call me cynical, that they have put on a $225 fine. So all the B'n'S utes with 5 post cattle catchers are an easy cash target. Along with lazy fishers who leave the rod holders pointing out.
Bmkal your old f100 bar(the older ones look good) would be borderline as it follows the line of the truck, it is more obvious in the older F100's, like the green one,where the bonnet was more forward than the bumper.

[Bigbjorn]

Philip, the Rocket launchers must be a QLD thing, places like Fraser Island etc , a bull bar carrying surf rods and a alvey side cast reel.
Since we aren't allowed to drive on the beach in Victoria we don't really see those accessories. I wonder if LED Light bars on top of bull bars have been approved for pedestrian cut wounds etc.



Quote from Modifications book issued by Qld. Dept. of Transport and Main Roads.

Driving lights/brackets must not protrude forward from the front face of any bumper or above the top of any bullbar.

Rod holders ...... must only be attached to the left side of the vehicle.


........must be designed to carry no more than four fishing rods.


....... must be either removed when they are not in use or retracted behind the profile of the bulbar.

Note also that no protuberances like lights or the top of any bull bar must be visible from the position of the driver's eyes.

[DBT]

If not retrospective, does this then not apply to pre-2002 vehicles?

Otherwise our Perenties will be in trouble. Top of revised brush bar is quite visible from drivers seat. Plus they have integrated towing eyes forward of the bumper.

[frantic]

Actually they are all sold with a blue slip in NSW so they must have passed the law.


Ex-Military Unimogs,Trucks,Land Rovers,ATV's,Bike &Trailers (http://www.graysonline.com/sale/5011048/motor-vehicles-motor-cycles/unreserved-ex-military-unimogs-trucks-land-rovers-atv-s-bike-trailers'spr=true)

[Basil135]

Does anyone have a copy of The Standard, or a subscription to enable them to download one for me to read? As it isn't really aligned to the industry I work in, it would look a bit sus for me to request a copy... :angel:

Be very interesting to see how it is worded.

AS4876.1-2002 is the one, if anyone is interested.

[bob10]

I remember, not so long ago , up in 1770 when there was no permanent police presence, every now & again a team of police & Transport personnel from Bundaberg would do a blitz. [ usually during peak time, & the locals would be given the nod] Apart from the usual, drink driving etc, the boat trailers at the ramp would be inspected. Part of the inspection would be " remove your tail light cover Sir". Any one with bulbs tapered at each end & slotted between two connectors would be fined.


Apparently it was too easy for the bulb to fall out on a bumpy road, making the light U/S . [ That's why we put rubber bands around the connection. ] Many complained, but were told there was legislation against using these connections. Didn't stop trailer makers using them, & the trailers being registered. You can still buy those rod holders in Qld, work that out. Bob

[Mick_Marsh]

Does anyone have a copy of The Standard, or a subscription to enable them to download one for me to read? As it isn't really aligned to the industry I work in, it would look a bit sus for me to request a copy... :angel:

Be very interesting to see how it is worded.

AS4876.1-2002 is the one, if anyone is interested.
Yep. I've got a copy somewhere. PM me your postal and I'll post it to you when I find it.

[PAT303]

The bar on my old "F" truck probably wouldn't pass today's standards. Can't think of any other style that really suited these things though. :p

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/911.jpg

But I draw the line at some of the really "over the top" massive chrome bars that I've seen some people fit on these. :o

I like it when you post that photo,just a nice clean unmolested Effy. Pat

[frantic]

Does anyone have a copy of The Standard, or a subscription to enable them to download one for me to read? As it isn't really aligned to the industry I work in, it would look a bit sus for me to request a copy... :angel:

Be very interesting to see how it is worded.

AS4876.1-2002 is the one, if anyone is interested.

One suggestion was if your ( or a relo or friend) at uni or Tafe you could borrow it to read, or download it for free from the uni for a week or so. Their words where to print it ASAP ;) as otherwise you must pay for a copy.:eek:

[Sprint]

Having a bar that slopes backwards scares hell out of me, hit something like a cow, horse, emu, or a roo on the up part of its hop, and that animal is coming through the windscreen.

Pedestrian safety? Sorry, but doing well over 25,000km a year at night outside of suburbia means I care more about my own personal safety and my ability to drive home after an animal strike than I do about the wellbeing of the next brainless drone who wants to try comitting suicide.

[Disco Muppet]

It's a bit different in a lifted 4WD, I'd wager regardless of the slope of my front bar, anything I hit, Giraffe excluded, is going underneath....
Interesting the comment about not being visible from the drivers eyes....does that mean if I'm sitting in the drivers seat, I'm not allowed to see the top rail of my bullbar or my driving lights? I can do both......
Basically, I think it comes down to....
a) If you're driving some ****box with a massive bar lapping mainies
b) the cop is having a REALLY bad day and you draw the short straw
Then really, things like the visible profile of your ARB bar from the drivers seat aren't going to get you in trouble.
I've been told to separately wire any lights I fit on the roof so I can declare them to be work lights..... Not sure how valid that is...

[Scouse]

I've been told to separately wire any lights I fit on the roof so I can declare them to be work lights..... Not sure how valid that is...In the latest 4wd Action mag, they have fitted a removeable harness to their roof lights. The idea being that the harness is easily fitted once off road (yeah, right) & it keeps the police happy too so I reckon what you've been told might be right (you may need a switch out of reach from the drivers seat too).

[bee utey]

It appears that (in SA and NSW at least) AS4876.1-2002 will only be enforced for vehicles manufactured after 1 July 2013, so no need to panic yet, Muppet.:)

The Australian 4WD Industry Council (http://www.aaaa.com.au/4wd/news.asp?id=62)

[olbod]

Apart from the bling factor ( and thats all I think it is ) why would you want or need to put lights on the roof ?

[PhilipA]

The Bajarack "Spylight" system, which AFAIK is only as yet for Fj Cruiser, swings the lights down 90degrees when switched off.

Regards Philip A

[FeatherWeightDriver]

That is the way the older bull bars were designed to do, if you hit a pedestrian you stood a good cahnce of running them over after you hit them. They now want vehicles / bullbars designed not to knock them over onto the ground but to fall onto the bonnet minimising pedestrian injuries. It is no longer about protecting the vehicle but protecting pedestrians.

Good luck with having a pedestrian fall on to the bonnet of even a standard height Defender, unless you are running a front bar like this one ;)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/888.jpg

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The 440 American,, what a classic!

[PAT303]

Apart from the bling factor ( and thats all I think it is ) why would you want or need to put lights on the roof ?

Because they work a hell of a lot better than at the front,I drive at night more than in the day to keep away from the heat,and it's way more fun and drive on unused tracks a lot so need the lights shining down onto the road to see washouts,ruts,lights on the front shine over the road so all you see is shadows. Pat

[PAT303]

That is the way the older bull bars were designed to do, if you hit a pedestrian you stood a good cahnce of running them over after you hit them. They now want vehicles / bullbars designed not to knock them over onto the ground but to fall onto the bonnet minimising pedestrian injuries. It is no longer about protecting the vehicle but protecting pedestrians.

This is the reason I'm fed up with do gooders,people are hit by vehicles because they are on the road,so now we make the driver of a car responsible for pedestrians being on the road were the vehicle is supposed to be and the pedestrian is not.Lets start charging people who get hit not using crossings and let natural selection deal with the rest of them and the problem will sort itself out. Pat

[sheerluck]

This is the reason I'm fed up with do gooders,people are hit by vehicles because they are on the road,so now we make the driver of a car responsible for pedestrians being on the road were the vehicle is supposed to be and the pedestrian is not.Lets start charging people who get hit not using crossings and let natural selection deal with the rest of them and the problem will sort itself out. Pat

That's a somewhat unforgiving attitude you have there Pat. No-one is making drivers responsible for pedestrians being on the road, just that they are attempting to maximise their chance of survival if they do get hit.

Chalking such accidents up to "natural selection" seems a bit harsh too. What about the child that pulls away from it's mother's hand at the wrong moment? What about the old guy suffering from dementia and wanders into the road? Feel free to tell them that it's just natural selection. Just so long as they don't dent your car. ;)

[olbod]

Because they work a hell of a lot better than at the front,I drive at night more than in the day to keep away from the heat,and it's way more fun and drive on unused tracks a lot so need the lights shining down onto the road to see washouts,ruts,lights on the front shine over the road so all you see is shadows. Pat


Fair enough.
I also drive at night and I only have a 20 inch led bar on the front and I drive to the conditions. No problem at all.
I did change my headlight bulbs to H4 globes tho.

[AndyG]

It's a long walk to the marked pedestrian crossing on the nullabour.

[101RRS]

It's a long walk to the marked pedestrian crossing on the nullabour.

That why there was the stupid proposal a while back to ban vehicles with outback bull bars form towns and cities - they really did not think that one through.

What were we supposed to do - take the bar off to drive into any decent sized town.

However having said that - all new ARB, OL, ECB and some others comply with the new pedestrian rules and also seem to work Ok handling the wildlife so if Bull Bar designers have a think about it, they can come up with bars that meet all requirements.

Garry

[Mick_Marsh]

It's a long walk to the marked pedestrian crossing on the nullabour.
How many pedestrians have you seen on the Nullarbor? I've seen more pedestrians on train lines. Maybe FeatherWeightDriver has the right idea. Trans need airbags to push the pedestrians over them.

[Mick_Marsh]

That's a somewhat unforgiving attitude you have there Pat. No-one is making drivers responsible for pedestrians being on the road, just that they are attempting to maximise their chance of survival if they do get hit.

Chalking such accidents up to "natural selection" seems a bit harsh too. What about the child that pulls away from it's mother's hand at the wrong moment? What about the old guy suffering from dementia and wanders into the road? Feel free to tell them that it's just natural selection. Just so long as they don't dent your car. ;)
I don't know what it is like in other cities but, in Melbourne, we have a pedestrian problem. There are many people who walk around with wires in their ears and stare at their hand totally oblivious to their surroundings. I have personally seen a fellow walk into a 10ft diameter pole, a young woman walk straight in front of a tram that was going quite fast (I was on the tram and was injured when the driver braked heavily), a woman walk in front of a car in Elizabeth Street and get skittled and a fellow brushing past a policeman to cross at the lights whilst the don't walk symbol was flashing. On the last one, the policeman stopped the pedestrian and got out the notebook to take down the pedestrian's particulars. Not all of these examples had "i" devices.
The thing is, pedestrians just don't care. They just don't think. It's always someone else's responsibility.
Interestingly, there is an average of two or three accidents a day involving pedestrians on Elizabeth Street in the CBD. I read that in MX a few years ago.

[Greatsouthernland]

It appears that (in SA and NSW at least) AS4876.1-2002 will only be enforced for vehicles manufactured after 1 July 2013, so no need to panic yet, Muppet.:)

The Australian 4WD Industry Council (http://www.aaaa.com.au/4wd/news.asp?id=62)

Seems the council has a 'vested' interest in this topic :angel:

The 2014/16 4WD Council Committee comprises:

Chairman:

Ray Smith -Roberts (of) East Coast Bullbars (QLD)

:eek:

[PAT303]

That's a somewhat unforgiving attitude you have there Pat. No-one is making drivers responsible for pedestrians being on the road, just that they are attempting to maximise their chance of survival if they do get hit.

Chalking such accidents up to "natural selection" seems a bit harsh too. What about the child that pulls away from it's mother's hand at the wrong moment? What about the old guy suffering from dementia and wanders into the road? Feel free to tell them that it's just natural selection. Just so long as they don't dent your car. ;)
It's all about personal responsibility,we have pedestrian crossings for a reason,in the news this week train drivers are complaining about people crossing in front of them,the video's of people running in front of trains beggers belief. Pat

[PAT303]

Fair enough.
I also drive at night and I only have a 20 inch led bar on the front and I drive to the conditions. No problem at all.
I did change my headlight bulbs to H4 globes tho.

Try lights on the roof olbod,you'd be supprised how good they light up the road.I have two shining straight ahead and the two outside ones at 45,you see the roo's before they get to the road. Pat

[PAT303]

It's a long walk to the marked pedestrian crossing on the nullabour.

It's the Japanese on push bikes you have to worry about,what in gods name makes them think the Nulaboring is a good bike ride?. Pat

[AndyG]

Common sense certainly does seem in short supply nowadays.

Up here , esp in rural areas they are all over the road like brown cows. It does not help that these extra large head sets are all the rage. I should add the roadside vegetation overlaps the road so their is no footpath.

And of course sleeping on the road after a skinful is all the rage. Dark people, dark dirty clothes, no lighting, undulating roads , nighttime, someone gets cleaned up locally almost every pay day.

[PhilipA]

Pat 303 , it is pretty traumatic to hit someone.
My son in law was driving along in Narrabeen minding his own business and a woman walked out in front. He hit her and stuck around to help and call ambulance etc.
She then accused him of exceeding the speed limit and that he saw her etc etc.
Went to court after a LOOOONG wait and he was exonerated , only because there were witnesses who supported his version.
The wait before court was excruciating for him and really affected his outlook.
Regards Philip A

[rovercare]

Weekend fatalities | Latrobe Valley Express (http://www.latrobevalleyexpress.com.au/story/1338978/weekend-fatalities/)

My brothers missus, using a phone walked into traffic

I'm not advocating the laws though, not walking infront of vehicles is a better way of staying alive and as for the feeing child as an example?....they are going under regardless, think about it, they only little;)

[sheerluck]

It's all about personal responsibility,we have pedestrian crossings for a reason,in the news this week train drivers are complaining about people crossing in front of them,the video's of people running in front of trains beggers belief. Pat

It's a very black and white view if you consider that all vehicle on pedestrian incidents are somehow down to a lack of personal responsibility on the part of the pedestrian, and therefore we should say stuff them.

Not everyone is standing in the middle of the road due to a lack of foresight, intelligence, or responsibility. What about the traffic controller directing traffic? Or the cop conducting an RBT? Or, just to pluck an example at random, crossing a pedestrian crossing on a green signal, when a driver (who had had an argument with her boyfriend) managed to not see the red signal and plough through the red signal where two of my sisters-in-law, my mother-in-law and my niece were crossing. Caused permanent brain damage to my niece, and a permanent disability to one of my two sisters-in-law, though the other two escaped with relatively light injuries.

Yep, natural selection in action there Pat.

[Mick_Marsh]

It's a very black and white view if you consider that all vehicle on pedestrian incidents are somehow down to a lack of personal responsibility on the part of the pedestrian, and therefore we should say stuff them.
A friend did this to me yesterday. He took my words, changed a couple, and threw it back at me.

It's a very black and white view if you consider that all vehicle on pedestrian incidents are somehow down to a lack of personal responsibility on the part of the motorist, and therefore we should say get rid of those bull bars.His opinion is, if you accept one, you cannot dismiss the other.

The fact is, each party is correct. If we ban bull bars we should also ban pedestrians from the road and wrap them up in cotton wool and airbags. We will have less pedestrian injuries. Why don't we do that?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/852.jpg
http://www.improbable.com/news/2002/may/troy-new-suit.html

[bee utey]

...

[frantic]

It's a very black and white view if you consider that all vehicle on pedestrian incidents are somehow down to a lack of personal responsibility on the part of the pedestrian, and therefore we should say stuff them.

Not everyone is standing in the middle of the road due to a lack of foresight, intelligence, or responsibility. What about the traffic controller directing traffic? Or the cop conducting an RBT? Or, just to pluck an example at random, crossing a pedestrian crossing on a green signal, when a driver (who had had an argument with her boyfriend) managed to not see the red signal and plough through the red signal where two of my sisters-in-law, my mother-in-law and my niece were crossing. Caused permanent brain damage to my niece, and a permanent disability to one of my two sisters-in-law, though the other two escaped with relatively light injuries.

Yep, natural selection in action there Pat.


Was she driving a vehicle with a bulbar?


To me this is just the tip of the iceberg. How fast does the average vehicle fitted with a bulbar accelerate? around 0-100 in 10+ seconds overall.
Now go spend the same $$$ you would have on a 4x4 with a bulbar on a hot hatch or hi-po sedan and your looking at acceleration of under 4.5 seconds 0-100kph.
How is this related you ask?
VAST majority of pedestrians are hit in the city, less in the burbs, they are collected by vehicles doing the green light drag, stepping out from between parked courier vans into oncoming traffic not looking. Now if you have a TDv6, 5,toy4.2/4.4,niss 4.2/3.0,jeep 2.8 etc... whatever that can maybe get to 30kph over 60m before hitting Joe iPod, you in the next lane at the same price can have AMG($75k for GLA)/WRX/Evo($40k+)/HSV hitting 60kph+.
Now according to the pedestrian councils own data your just as dead being hit by a 5post bulbar with fishing rod holders protruding at 30kph as you are being hit by a normal car at 60kph.

[sheerluck]

A friend did this to me yesterday. He took my words, changed a couple, and threw it back at me.
His opinion is, if you accept one, you cannot dismiss the other.

The fact is, each party is correct. If we ban bull bars we should also ban pedestrians from the road and wrap them up in cotton wool and airbags. We will have less pedestrian injuries. Why don't we do that?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/852.jpg
Improbable Research (http://www.improbable.com/news/2002/may/troy-new-suit.html)

Mick, my point to Pat was that there is no absolute, but that the world exists in the grey area in the middle. People will have legitimate need to be standing on a road, just as there is a legitimate need for bullbars on vehicles. My intention is not to lobby for the banning of bullbars, far from it. They are a necessary addition in most of this country, but let's at least try and make them the best compromise possible.

Giving the attitude "we shouldn't have to do anything, pedestrians shouldn't be on the road" for me is not correct.

[PAT303]

Pat 303 , it is pretty traumatic to hit someone.
My son in law was driving along in Narrabeen minding his own business and a woman walked out in front. He hit her and stuck around to help and call ambulance etc.
She then accused him of exceeding the speed limit and that he saw her etc etc.
Went to court after a LOOOONG wait and he was exonerated , only because there were witnesses who supported his version.
The wait before court was excruciating for him and really affected his outlook.
Regards Philip A

I know how traumatic it is Philip,I was an ambulance officer for 3 years and many times I saw the aftermath of peoples decision not to use a crossing but simply to cut across the road.I saw first hand what such an accident is like on the driver,witnesses and the persons friends/family.Like I posted earlier these people make decisions that not only effect them but many others as well,a person driving a vehicle has enough to do without dealing with the extra burden of looking out for pedestrians who don't follow simple road rules. Pat

[PAT303]

Weekend fatalities | Latrobe Valley Express (http://www.latrobevalleyexpress.com.au/story/1338978/weekend-fatalities/)

My brothers missus, using a phone walked into traffic

I'm not advocating the laws though, not walking infront of vehicles is a better way of staying alive and as for the feeing child as an example?....they are going under regardless, think about it, they only little;)

Sorry for your families loss Rovercare. Pat

[PAT303]

It's a very black and white view if you consider that all vehicle on pedestrian incidents are somehow down to a lack of personal responsibility on the part of the pedestrian, and therefore we should say stuff them.

Not everyone is standing in the middle of the road due to a lack of foresight, intelligence, or responsibility. What about the traffic controller directing traffic? Or the cop conducting an RBT? Or, just to pluck an example at random, crossing a pedestrian crossing on a green signal, when a driver (who had had an argument with her boyfriend) managed to not see the red signal and plough through the red signal where two of my sisters-in-law, my mother-in-law and my niece were crossing. Caused permanent brain damage to my niece, and a permanent disability to one of my two sisters-in-law, though the other two escaped with relatively light injuries.

Yep, natural selection in action there Pat.

That is an accident,a very sad accident,thats very different from someone who chooses to put themselves at risk,there's nothing but heart break for all involved in that situation. Pat

[PAT303]

Mick, my point to Pat was that there is no absolute, but that the world exists in the grey area in the middle. People will have legitimate need to be standing on a road, just as there is a legitimate need for bullbars on vehicles. My intention is not to lobby for the banning of bullbars, far from it. They are a necessary addition in most of this country, but let's at least try and make them the best compromise possible.

Giving the attitude "we shouldn't have to do anything, pedestrians shouldn't be on the road" for me is not correct.

Pedestrians shouldn't be on the road,how many area's in cities do you see pool fencing up in the concrete divider trying to force people to use crossings only for people to simply climb over them when a crossing is within a short distance?.Bullbars or not it's not up to a driver to be responsible for people who choose to ignore the road rules,as for people who work on the road such as repairmen/Police etc they have regulations in place such as demarcated zones,hi viz clothing etc,thats a totally different argument. Pat

[sheerluck]

Pedestrians shouldn't be on the road,how many area's in cities do you see pool fencing up in the concrete divider trying to force people to use crossings only for people to simply climb over them when a crossing is within a short distance?.Bullbars or not it's not up to a driver to be responsible for people who choose to ignore the road rules,as for people who work on the road such as repairmen/Police etc they have regulations in place such as demarcated zones,hi viz clothing etc,thats a totally different argument. Pat

Again a very simplistic view Pat. Regardless of your opinion that there should be nothing but vehicles on the road, there will always be times when people will, with a legitimate reason or not, be wanting to share that space with them.

Not all of them will be mindless morons, some will be a victim of circumstance. Maybe someone breaking down on one of those urban roads with the pool fences, and making a 50/50 call as to whether it would be safer to leave their vehicle or stay with it.
Perhaps someone on a rural road with no pavements out walking their dogs.

Or even someone in suburbia having to walk around the back of a car that's parked across the pavement.

Not as black and white as you are making out.

[Mick_Marsh]

Again a very simplistic view Pat. Regardless of your opinion that there should be nothing but vehicles on the road, there will always be times when people will, with a legitimate reason or not, be wanting to share that space with them.

Not all of them will be mindless morons, some will be a victim of circumstance. Maybe someone breaking down on one of those urban roads with the pool fences, and making a 50/50 call as to whether it would be safer to leave their vehicle or stay with it.
Perhaps someone on a rural road with no pavements out walking their dogs.

Or even someone in suburbia having to walk around the back of a car that's parked across the pavement.

Not as black and white as you are making out.
There are road rules covering these situations that apply to pedestrians. These laws are in place to maximise safe use of the road. I own old cars and have walked many a mile along little country roads with no pavements whilst four wheel drives and B doubles with big bull bars thunder past me. Use your common sense and obey those rules and the chances of being hit for a six by a bull bar are really small.

[Disco Muppet]

It's one thing for you to use your common sense Mick, it's the other people you've got to watch out for.

[Mick_Marsh]

It's one thing for you to use your common sense Mick, it's the other people you've got to watch out for.
This is true. Those people should accept the consequences of their actions and chalk it up to experience. There have been many posts on this forum that laments the fact we are becoming a nanny state. I see the removal of bull bars as one more step to that end. What's the next step? Banning of four wheel drives? There is a rather vocal group calling for just that. Oh, it is clear four wheel drives are not pedestrian friendly.

Oh, when there is an accident in Melbourne CBD involving a vehicle and a pedestrian, it's usually the pedestrian that lacks common sense. I'm willing to wager that in most pedestrian/vehicle accidents involve a lack of common sense displayed by the pedestrian. I'd also wager most pedestrian/vehicle accidents do not involve bull bars.
I'm tipping removal of bull bars from four wheel drives is not going to improve the statistics of injury from pedestrian/vehicle accidents by much, if at all.

Interestingly, I was listening to Jeff Kennett the other day. He was saying something along the lines of the government throw a **** load of money at the road toll. With the same funding, they can prevent hundreds of depression sufferers from taking their own lives. Why I mention this is we could possibly do better things for society if we focused our efforts elsewhere rather going to the nth degree on a limited set of issues.

[Mick_Marsh]

Here's an interesting road law:

236 Pedestrians not to cause a traffic hazard or
obstruction
(1) A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by
moving into the path of a driver.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.
(2) A pedestrian must not unreasonably obstruct the
path of any driver or another pedestrian.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.
(3) For subrule (2), a pedestrian does not
unreasonably obstruct the path of another
pedestrian only by travelling more slowly than
other pedestrians.
(4) A pedestrian must not stand on, or move onto, a
road to—
(a) solicit contributions, employment or
business from an occupant of a vehicle; or
(b) hitchhike; or
(c) display an advertisement; or
(d) sell or offer articles for sale; or
(e) wash or clean, or offer to wash or clean, the
windscreen of a vehicle (other than a parked
vehicle).
Penalty: 2 penalty units.
(5) In this rule—
road includes any shoulder of the road, but does
not include any other road related area.And 238 is just as interesting:

238 Pedestrians travelling along a road (except in or on
a wheeled recreational device or toy)
(1) A pedestrian must not travel along a road if there
is a footpath or nature strip adjacent to the road,
unless it is impracticable to travel on the footpath
or nature strip.
Penalty: 2 penalty units.
Note
Footpath and nature strip are defined in the dictionary.
(2) A pedestrian travelling along a road—
(a) must keep as far to the left or right side of
the road as is practicable; and
(ab) must, when moving forward, face
approaching traffic that is moving in the
direction opposite to which the pedestrian is
travelling, unless it is impracticable to do so;
and
(b) must not travel on the road alongside more
than 1 other pedestrian or vehicle travelling
on the road in the same direction as the
pedestrian, unless the pedestrian is
overtaking other pedestrians.
Penalty: 2 penalty units.
(3) In this rule—
pedestrian does not include a person travelling in
or on a wheeled recreational device or
wheeled toy;
road does not include a road related area, but
includes any shoulder of the road.
All common sense, really.

[PhilipA]

OK , I will stick my chin out ready to be flamed.

Why is it that there are no easily removable bullbars?

IMHO it would be pretty simple to design a quick release mechanism cosisting of either horizontal or vertical posts that the bullbar can slide onto and be held by pins or some other method.

I thought of this when there was a movement to ban bullbars in city areas a couple of years ago.
I don't think anyone could really argue that this was undesirable as we do not need bullbars in the city.

BTW , I have now done 2 laps and numerous other semi laps of OZ including most of the iconic roads and never hit a roo, bull, emu, or anything in 8 years of travel , this year for 3 months.

I have had a roo jump into the side of my car and found out that emus can pull their backside in if about to be hit.

My RRC originally had an old ARB bar that weighed 45kilos on it and I took it off to the great relief of the front supension. I don't have a bar on my D2.
I don't travel at dusk or dawn or night, I slow down at the first hint of cattle on the road and slow down by 10 when the scrub is to the road edge. I contrast this to a Pom who posted a couple of years ago who had hit 4 roos in one circuit. As I said, we soon won't need shooters with him around.
I appreciate that if you live in the scrub and have to travel at night you may need a bar. However IMHO in many cases bars are just macho man accessories.

I had contact with many bullbar customers when working for "the dudder" and I can tell you that most were just after the look. I know I sold a few bars that weighed 130KG !!!!!!! for FJ Cruisers. What you could do to the suspension to hold up the bar I do not know, and our agent in Perth who was a suspension specialist did not know either.

Regards Philip A

[alan48]

Hi all,
not only are bull bars being targeted in some areas but also forward facing roof lights which are illegal as well, along with rod holders--maybe the thin edge of the wedge.

[Mick_Marsh]

OK , I will stick my chin out ready to be flamed.

Why is it that there are no easily removable bullbars?

IMHO it would be pretty simple to design a quick release mechanism cosisting of either horizontal or vertical posts that the bullbar can slide onto and be held by pins or some other method.

I thought of this when there was a movement to ban bullbars in city areas a couple of years ago.
I don't think anyone could really argue that this was undesirable as we do not need bullbars in the city.

BTW , I have now done 2 laps and numerous other semi laps of OZ including most of the iconic roads and never hit a roo, bull, emu, or anything in 8 years of travel , this year for 3 months.

I have had a roo jump into the side of my car and found out that emus can pull their backside in if about to be hit.

My RRC originally had an old ARB bar that weighed 45kilos on it and I took it off to the great relief of the front supension. I don't have a bar on my D2.
I don't travel at dusk or dawn or night, I slow down at the first hint of cattle on the road and slow down by 10 when the scrub is to the road edge. I contrast this to a Pom who posted a couple of years ago who had hit 4 roos in one circuit. As I said, we soon won't need shooters with him around.
I appreciate that if you live in the scrub and have to travel at night you may need a bar. However IMHO in many cases bars are just macho man accessories.

I had contact with many bullbar customers when working for "the dudder" and I can tell you that most were just after the look. I know I sold a few bars that weighed 130KG !!!!!!! for FJ Cruisers. What you could do to the suspension to hold up the bar I do not know, and our agent in Perth who was a suspension specialist did not know either.

Regards Philip A
I had never hit a roo, until a little over a year ago. I was probably traveling at about 40km/h or less by the time I hit it. It didn't get knocked over and continued to hop on it's way. There were a few bent panels on the Commodore. I nearly it another one a little over a month ago. Again in the Commodore. I have also nearly hit an emu (now thery're a dumb bird).
I have also in a small sedan (no bull bar) nearly hit a pedestrian. Driving not very quickly up Bourke Street (you can't drive very quickly up Bourke Street) in the city in a rainy day. A middle aged woman armed with bags of shopping appeared between two parked cars making a dash for the tram on the opposite side of the road. On reflection, it was much like the emu incident.

Will I be putting a bull bar on the Commodore? I don't think so.
Will I be removing the bull bars from the Landrovers? No.

[101RRS]

Hi all,
not only are bull bars being targeted in some areas but also forward facing roof lights which are illegal as well,

I think that you will find that it is not the lights on roofs that are illegal in themselves - afterall some cars have them as standard - but the setup and how many etc - there is a limit on how many forward facing lights a vehicle can have and usually there are four on the roof in addition to the cars OEM lights on the front and then there are usually two spotties on the front. There are height restrictions as well.

Garry

[frantic]

Philip you answered your own question.:D
How many of us have the facilities , space and strength to lift a 100kg plus, bar/winch/lights combo off, put it in the shed, and then lift it back on when we want to go out of suburbia?
I could deadlift 100-130kg, but by the same token, would not want anyone crawling underneath the bar when im holding it to bolt it up. Nor do I have the space to store a bulbar for bush use and a normal bumper. I don't have any lifting equipment to slide the bar into place on, out and storage spot, nor do I want to stuff around with the electrical side of spots, winch and indicators in the bar.


The other issue is do you trust the vast majority of bars that have been professionally fitted not to fall off , or would you prefer a growing number of home bodgie job's by bloke's who puts their bullbar's on every 3 months or less and couldn't find the right nuts/bolts so used ones that looked close enough and filled the hole.

[PhilipA]

How many of us have the facilities , space and strength to lift a 100kg plus,
bar/winch/lights combo off, put it in the shed, and then lift it back on when we
want to go out of suburbia

A trolley jack will do it. I have fitted and removed bullbars by myself several times and not ones that just slotted on. I am sure the bar makers could come up with a fitting for a trolley jack.

Most bullbars come in at about 35-37 Kg .

My suggestion is if the authorities decide to ban bullbars in cities as they already have in Europe. In that case you may have no choice and a removable one may be the only answer.
I just had another thought. The whole bar need not come off, just the loops. Think, the loops could be socketed into the bumper part of the bar. In the USA and UK most front bumpers do not have loops. You could leave the bumper and winch in place with maybe a cover, and maybe even driving lights. This would probably be approved if the profile of the bar was like the original bumper profile.

Regards Philip A

[V8Ian]

A trolley jack will do it. I have fitted and removed bullbars by myself several times and not ones that just slotted on. I am sure the bar makers could come up with a fitting for a trolley jack.

Most bullbars come in at about 35-37 Kg .

My suggestion is if the authorities decide to ban bullbars in cities as they already have in Europe. In that case you may have no choice and a removable one may be the only answer.

Regards Philip A
What if you're passing through?

[noj44]

What if you're passing through?

Carry a trolly jack with you.:wasntme:

[PhilipA]

What if you're passing through?

Well if I were making the laws it would be easy to confine bullbars to say expressways or B double approved roads for example.

No pedestrians there.

Goodness I seem to be developing instant transport policy .
Maybe I should copy Duncan Gay on this thread. LOL
Regards Philip A

[101RRS]

Well if I were making the laws it would be easy to confine bullbars to say expressways or B double approved roads for example.



Or you could just put on a modern ADR compliant bullbar that is pedestrian friendly and by the comments on AULRO seems to protect reasonably well against the wildlife.

Garry

[Sprint]

Ban pedestrians, not bullbars

[V8Ian]

Well if I were making the laws it would be easy to confine bullbars to say expressways or B double approved roads for example.

No pedestrians there.

Goodness I seem to be developing instant transport policy .
Maybe I should copy Duncan Gay on this thread. LOL
Regards Philip A
Plenty of places have B-double routes in the centre of town.

[Tote]

Seems the council has a 'vested' interest in this topic :angel:

The 2014/16 4WD Council Committee comprises:

Chairman:

Ray Smith -Roberts (of) East Coast Bullbars (QLD)

:eek:

Of course they have a vested interest, The industry council is a lobby group of manufacturers of offroad equipment such as bullbars, nothing to do with pedestrian safety.

Regards,
Tote

[Greatsouthernland]

Of course they have a vested interest, The industry council is a lobby group of manufacturers of offroad equipment such as bullbars, nothing to do with pedestrian safety.

Regards,
Tote

G'day Tote, I didn't mean it was a BAD thing :D probably means something will get done to preserve the interest ;) like Clive as boss of the PUP, will probably mean PUP will be good for Clive. So we need to convince Clive to dump the Bently and buy a LR with a bullbar....

[isuzurover]

Weekend fatalities | Latrobe Valley Express (http://www.latrobevalleyexpress.com.au/story/1338978/weekend-fatalities/)

My brothers missus, using a phone walked into traffic

...

Very sorry to hear Matt.

[frantic]

A trolley jack will do it. I have fitted and removed bullbars by myself several times and not ones that just slotted on. I am sure the bar makers could come up with a fitting for a trolley jack.

Most bullbars come in at about 35-37 Kg .

My suggestion is if the authorities decide to ban bullbars in cities as they already have in Europe. In that case you may have no choice and a removable one may be the only answer.
I just had another thought. The whole bar need not come off, just the loops. Think, the loops could be socketed into the bumper part of the bar. In the USA and UK most front bumpers do not have loops. You could leave the bumper and winch in place with maybe a cover, and maybe even driving lights. This would probably be approved if the profile of the bar was like the original bumper profile.

Regards Philip A
Im sure you bolt it up well, just not so sure about others


A defender bulbar weighs around 45-50kg + a winch is another 35-45kg, which with lights is nudging 100kg total. And there is no answer for storage?:D
If you make the loops removable, they will be, removed, just not by you.;)


We are not in the U.K or USA, where there are virtually zero roo strikes compared to pedestrian hits, whats the ratio here?
. You hit a cow in any country your going to stop. Buffalo/Bison are almost extinct in the U.S whereas in Australia there are more roo's than when captain cook stepped ashore as we made a perfect environment for them to breed. Factor in more guns than people in the USA and any larger animals like deer etc keep well clear of any roads further reducing impacts.



A few points I got out of this report against an ad campaign from vic roads.
* 90 deaths a year, maybe, nationally where impact was with a vehicle with a bulbar.
* compared to 9000, impacts in 2007 in NSW alone recorded by one insurance company NRMA, extrapolate that across the rest of OZ, then trow in the unreported ones where the bar is only scratched,,, hmmm.
This means at the best estimate it's one pedestrian fatality to way over 100+ potential driver fatalities.
http://www.aaaa.com.au/files/issues/PositionPaperBullbars.pdf


Heres another international study on motoring fatalities to 2011, with an interesting quote from page 53.
Since 1990, the percentage reduction in pedestrian fatalities (-59%) has been considerably larger than that for vehicle occupant fatalities (-46%).


http://www.internationaltransportforum.org/pub/pdf/13IrtadReport.pdf



Flogged from disco micks thread:
http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/rda/files/RDA_JULY_2014.pdf
Pedestrian deaths dropped to 150-164 2013 -14 from over 400, 2 decades ago.

[Bigbjorn]

[QUOTE=frantic;2207133]like deer etc keep well clear of any roads further reducing impacts.




/QUOTE]

You haven't driven much in the USA then. Road kill deer all over the place.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Very sorry to hear Matt.
YES, very sorry to hear that, that's tragic news.

[Sprint]

With the authorities also using the excuse of the increased weight of a big bar affecting handling, it madr me wonder what they'd think of the Colorado I spotted the other day..... Quite legal with a ARB Deluxe winch bar, but I dare say the winch that was fitted wasnt light..... nor was the spare tyre bolted to the front of the bar.....

[Sprint]

And sharp edges..... well..... i guess the patrol i was just looking at was legal with its genuine nissan bar..... not too sure about the two sets of rod holders, the towbar tongue and ball, or the homemade boat winch mounting frame welded to the factory bar, complete with 50x50mm RHS facing forward....

i guess grey nomads are exempt though.....

[Sprint]

Double post

[ozscott]

removable bars...what would you put on in its place. as it is we are time poor. frankly I also like a bit of extra protection in town against drunken yobs in 4 cyl race cars and touch parking volvo xc7 and ff range rover drivers.

lets see I go to the scenic Rim on the weekend come home and a feww hundred metres from my home and have my usual near miss with several roos (have hit 2 in the past near my house) with my bar on. take bar off and get revisit my teenage years in the panel shop to fit a replacement bumper that PhillipA has purchased for me (mine got thrown 10 years ago) to drive to my office in Brissy in the morning. work for 2 hours then go to Roma for work....ohh but if I want to protect my pride and joy and fancy not having hire car costs for my radiator being taken out by old man red, I have to stop at home, get changed, get out my new trolley jack (courtesy of PhillipA) and spend an hour changing over front ends (and those text screws are going to last arent they...) shower, dress and drive off....come home and repeat....yep makes heaps of sense to me. ..

cheers

[ozscott]

thanfully the Newman Govt and several after are not reading some of the ideas in this thread. I have heard the rumours and silly stuff from study groups etc for 10 years or more and the bullbars in the city, just like overreactions and scare mongering will stay.

cheers

[PhilipA]

Funny, I have been touring and 4WD since 1977 and never hit a roo.

Last Month I drove from Mt Isa to Longreach and saw the most dead roos per Kilometer that I have ever seen ( except maybe in 2004 from Broken Hill to Peterborough) . The falcons and crows love it. But didn't hit any.

One has hit me in the LH wheel arch where there would not have been a bullbar.

Luck of the draw I guess.

Regards Philip A
BTW bit a "drama queen " response what? You of course would have great difficulty removing a 10Kg hoop from say 4 bolts or even spring clips. Almost as hard as say removing the rocket launchers that slice and dice or would you insist on leaving them on as its all too hard .( not implying you have any. Just a rhetorical flourish).
New ideas are very dangerous and should be resisted at all costs.

[stallie]

I've killed five in one night between Katherine and Timber Creek. 330kms.

Wet season, doing back to 80kmh. Middle off-road where possible. Jumping straight out of the long grass into me.

Another night we ended up camping by the road 150kms short of Meeka (via Sandstone). Roos so thick we were back to a crawl to stop hitting them. At our average speed we'd not have reached Meeka till the morning...


Most grey nomads driving early and camping up early will never hit one.

[Sprint]

Funny, I have been touring and 4WD since 1977 and never hit a roo.

Last Month I drove from Mt Isa to Longreach and saw the most dead roos per Kilometer that I have ever seen ( except maybe in 2004 from Broken Hill to Peterborough) . The falcons and crows love it. But didn't hit any.

One has hit me in the LH wheel arch where there would not have been a bullbar.

Luck of the draw I guess.

In the 7 years I drove my XR8 back and forth from work, I racked up well over 140,000km, mostly on the same 60km stretch of road, and I've hit one Echidna and clipped a 'roo..... and maybe half the distance I travelled wouldve been well over the speed limit.....

2 years and 80,000km in my commodore and I hit at least 5 of the bloody things in a 6 month period.... mostly at speeds between 100-130km/h, and EVERY 'roo strike I drove away from, the worst damage I had to deal with was a spotlight that was damaged when I dead centred a 'roo at 130 and the impact tore the welds on the aluminium mesh in the middle of the bar.

And thats on the same road.....

[ozscott]

Phillip your earlier post was about a removable bar...the latter one was about hoops yes I hammed up my respose for you but I knew you could handle it

but mate really the whole thing is just a little bit silly. Lets all just go and polish our bars...be they bull or bumpa. You keep your nylon and I will keep my (non removable) steel. The truth is that lifts will do more damage to a pedestrian or low slung sedan than a bull bar...oh...I have a lift kit too. Bugger.

cheers
cheers

[d2dave]

I am so fed up with all the excuses about protecting pedestrians.

I am not far off sixty and I am always breaking pedestrian laws.

Going against don't walk lights, taking the shortest route possible from A to B when crossing the road, which often means on a big angle which equates to jay walking and being too lazy to walk 20 metres to a pedestrian crossing.

I have not come close to being hit. Why? Because I use the bloody things that nature gave me, my eyes and ears, as well as common sense, although after reading this some might dispute the latter.

[digger]

Just a thought...

in the north of our state, it is common to come across vehicles disabled by roo or wildlife strikes (emu, wombat... cattle/sheep/goat) and literally stuck in the a very solitary or remote spot...sometimes with kids etc and often without decent water or food supply etc...(we were just passing through!)

If I need to remove my bull/roo bar to travel into the metro area, then I believe (for safety) that any vehicles leaving the metro area should have to fit a bar...

[digger]

I think that you will find that it is not the lights on roofs that are illegal in themselves - afterall some cars have them as standard - but the setup and how many etc - there is a limit on how many forward facing lights a vehicle can have and usually there are four on the roof in addition to the cars OEM lights on the front and then there are usually two spotties on the front. There are height restrictions as well.

Garry

Garry,
In SA they are, all spotlights fitted to a vehicle must be forward or equal to the plane of the headlights.

Roof mounted lights are a magnet for a defect and a fine...

and disconnecting them doesnt work as ADRs state "all lights fitted to a vehicle must operate."
(so if they are there and not working, still a defect and the offence is having them installed there not necessarily using them..)

In SA until about March this year (i think) the regs stated must be even numbers of spotlights fitted. This was changed as the lightbar revolution is being configured for now. (so lightbar = 1 spotlight)

Lastly anything that projects forward of a bullbar into the "pedestrian zone" is illegal (rod holders, top mounted spots can be included depending on the install, aerials mounted forward etc etc)

[AndyG]

Lucky we have Ricky Muir looking after us in the Senate :p

Seriously, I wish him well, it's good to have some diversity in Parliament, rather than the usual professional hacks.

[rick130]

Philip, haven't waded into this as I agree that a bull bar has no place in a 99% city driven car, but just because you've never hit a roo doesn't mean the rest of us haven't either.

I've lost count of the number of roo strikes I've had over the years, and I only live 4.5 hours from Sydney.

Put it this way, it ranges in the multiple scores of poor macropods whacked in the last decade.

Some area are just riddled with them, and sometimes we have to drive at the times they are most prevalent.

[frantic]

Garry,
In SA they are, all spotlights fitted to a vehicle must be forward or equal to the plane of the headlights.

Roof mounted lights are a magnet for a defect and a fine...

and disconnecting them doesnt work as ADRs state "all lights fitted to a vehicle must operate."
(so if they are there and not working, still a defect and the offence is having them installed there not necessarily using them..)

In SA until about March this year (i think) the regs stated must be even numbers of spotlights fitted. This was changed as the lightbar revolution is being configured for now. (so lightbar = 1 spotlight)

Lastly anything that projects forward of a bullbar into the "pedestrian zone" is illegal (rod holders, top mounted spots can be included depending on the install, aerials mounted forward etc etc)

Not to argue, but as your quote stated, roof lights where an option in some models. The wrangler had a roof bar with 4-6 lights as a factory mopar option. Now maybe they didn't let anyone tick that box in SA but removing a legaly fitted light to enter the state seems a bit silly.

[101RRS]

Garry,
In SA they are, all spotlights fitted to a vehicle must be forward or equal to the plane of the headlights.


Not to argue, but as your quote stated, roof lights where an option in some models. The wrangler had a roof bar with 4-6 lights as a factory mopar option. Now maybe they didn't let anyone tick that box in SA but removing a legaly fitted light to enter the state seems a bit silly.

Again not to argue but Roof Lights were a Factory fitment on many Jeep Cherokee Renegade models like this one 2003 Jeep Cherokee Renegade MY2003 (http://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Jeep-Cherokee-2003/AGC-AD-15776700/?Cr=109&sdmvc=1)

So if not legal be sold in SA it was everywhere else in Aust - so i take it if the above vehicle was driven into SA it would be defected even though it complies with ADRs, is an unmodified vehicle and legal in all other States and technically legal in Australia.

Lots of pics here as well https://www.google.com.au/search?q=pics+jeep+cherokee+renegade&tbm=isch&imgil=GAEdl3Na4byWcM%253A%253BCFyke5jsFtYjHM%253Bh ttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.toledoblade.com%25252 FAutomotive%25252F2004%25252F06%25252F16%25252FChr ysler-pays-homage-to-Cherokee-in-lines-of-2005-Liberty-Renegade.html&source=iu&usg=__r71Cb0wFiz2GfklBLJ_OPjVrqeQ%3D&sa=X&ei=eI_6U4bkMIi3uAST7YGIBw&ved=0CCMQ9QEwAg&biw=1366&bih=634#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=GAEdl3Na4byWcM%253A%3BCFyke5jsFtYjHM%3Bhttps %253A%252F%252Fwww.toledoblade.com%252Fimage%252F2 004%252F06%252F16%252F800x_b1_cCM_z%252FChrysler-pays-homage-to-Cherokee-in-lines-of-2005-Liberty-Renegade.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.toledoblade .com%252FAutomotive%252F2004%252F06%252F16%252FChr ysler-pays-homage-to-Cherokee-in-lines-of-2005-Liberty-Renegade.html%3B800%3B536

Garry

[BMKal]

Some model Nissan X Trail's also had factory fitted forward facing lights on the roof as well. Don't think they were useful for anything, but wonder how they fit in with rules regarding roof mounted lights. I've seen a few of these around from time to time (pretty uncommon though).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/398.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/399.jpg

[PhilipA]

Philip, haven't waded into this as I agree that a bull bar has no place in a
99% city driven car, but just because you've never hit a roo doesn't mean the
rest of us haven't either.


I know Rick. I just posted as I was involved with importing bullbars and at the time it looked like they may be banned, and I was thinking what could be done to enable people who need bullbars to still have them.

It was just some ideas . Maybe if it comes to pass someone in ARB will say "How about a removable loop " Sounds like a Tacos ad.
The plastic ones seemed to have died.
Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

Just back on the lights on bars thing, I understood there was a rule that the driving lights could not be fitted so they were above the headlights of a vehicle, but I could be wrong. That would make the LED bars on roof racks illegal, of course.

On the bullbars thing, my Smartbar deforms to absorb the strike and then over a day bends back into position. Very clever thing and I'm surprised more are not in use privately.
Only drawback of mine is you can't fit a winch to it, although to others you can (such as the Hilux Smartbar).

Their vid of comparison bulbar testing is interesting to watch. Steel and aluminium bars don't come off looking good.
http://www.smartbar.com.au/Interactive/SmartBar%20Video/Bull-Bar-Comparison-Test-video

[isuzurover]

This thread seems to have drifted onto (roof mounted) lights.

Most of the posts are incorrect.

ADRs / NCOP / Legislation do not have any restrictions on the height of spotlights or any prohibition of roof mounting, so long as it can be considered the "front" of the vehicle.


The above standards instruction provides guidance on LED light bar use, suggesting the use of paired LED bars, or installing a "Blanking Plate" for a large centrally mounted LED light bar to be used as an additional "driving light".

As the LED light bar is only to be used as a driving light (not for low / dipped beam use), then it only needs to comply with requirements in ADR 13/00 and NOT ADR 46/00.
(ADR 13/00 - Installation of Lighting and Light-signalling Devices on other than L-Group Vehicles Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 13/00 - Installation of Lighting and Light Signalling Devices on other than L-Group Vehicles) 2005 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Series/F2005L03991))
(ADR 46/00 - Headlamps Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 46/00 - Headlamps) 2006 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Series/F2006L02294))

ADR 13/00 "Additional Lamps" states:

6.1.5. In addition to the main beam headlamps in paragraph 6.1 of Appendix A, a further two or four driving lamps may be installed as long as they comply with clause 7.3 of this standard.


7.3. DRIVING LAMPS
7.3.1. Presence: Optional on motor vehicles. Prohibited on trailers.
7.3.2. Number:
7.3.2.1. Two or four.
7.3.2.2. To be used in conjunction with headlamps.
7.3.3. Arrangement: No individual specifications
7.3.4. Position:
7.3.4.1. In width: no individual specifications.
7.3.4.2. In height: no individual specifications.
7.3.4.3. In length: at the front of the vehicle and fitted in such a way that the light emitted does not cause discomfort to the driver either directly or indirectly through the rear-view mirrors and/or other reflecting surfaces of the vehicle.
7.3.5. Geometric visibility: No individual specifications.
7.3.6. Orientation: Towards the front.
7.3.7. Electrical connections: The driving lamps must be able to be lighted only when the main-beam headlamps switch is in the “lamps on” position.
7.3.8. Tell tale: No requirement.
7.3.9. Others: The aggregate maximum intensity of the main-beam headlamps as specified in paragraph 6.1.9.1 of Appendix A, can be exceeded with the fitment and illumination of driving lamps. Driving lamps do not have to comply with ADR 46/...


ADR 13/00 also allows the use of "Alternative Standards", referring to the European UNECE Regulation No. 48, and actually has this listed as Annex A to ADR 13/00.


Now that LEDs are available, it could be argued they are cabin/marker lights, which are perfectly legal if below 7W per light (most LED light bars are 3-5W per individual light). However the 120mm centre spacing is an issue...


1.94 External cabin lights

(1) A light motor vehicle fitted with front clearance lights may also have additional forward-facing lights on or above the roof of its cabin.

(2) The additional forward-facing lights must be spaced evenly between the front clearance lights, with their centres at least 120mm apart.

(3) When on, an additional forward-facing light must—

(a) show a yellow or white light; and

(b) not use over 7W.
ROAD TRANSPORT (VEHICLE REGISTRATION) REGULATION 2000 - SCHEDULE 1 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/act/consol_reg/rtrr2000478/sch1.html)

[Mick_Marsh]

Roof mounted lights are a magnet for a defect and a fine...
When you get a chance, could you check that please. The SA police practice/rule. It may have been updated

With the older ADR's, I reckon that statement is true. With newer vehicles, the third edition ADR's apply and, according to them, it's ok to have roof mounted driving lights.

I believe the same thing applied to the daytime running lights that nowdays are usually mounted low on the bumper.

It must be so difficult for the police on the street, at the moment, to know which ADR's apply to which cars. There are so many changes that are applied from so many different dates.

[PhilipA]

It's interesting that I saw a news report on Sydney Channel 7 a few weeks ago where a reporter was accompanying police.

They pulled over a Hilux ostensibly for the roof lights, then defected him on all the usual Hilux stuff like excessive lift etc.
So the cops in NSW must have some legislative reason to do that, or do they?
Regards Philip A

[d2dave]

and disconnecting them doesnt work as ADRs state "all lights fitted to a vehicle must operate."
(so if they are there and not working, still a defect and the offence is having them installed there not necessarily using them..)

Digger. Although not a lawyer I would interpret the above as all lights fitted as standard equipment must work.

I really can't see how my aftermarket driving lights which were on my car for about three months before I got around to wiring them up, would have been illegal for this time.

[101RRS]

It's interesting that I saw a news report on Sydney Channel 7 a few weeks ago where a reporter was accompanying police.

They pulled over a Hilux ostensibly for the roof lights, then defected him on all the usual Hilux stuff like excessive lift etc.
So the cops in NSW must have some legislative reason to do that, or do they?
Regards Philip A

I saw that too but he also had a row of lights on the front bar so too many lights irrespective where they were mounted.

[Cracka]

Here's another 'smart' person's bullbar ('smart' being used very loosely).

NSW Farmers calls for bullbar defects to be repealed | Moree Champion (http://www.moreechampion.com.au/story/2507074/nsw-farmers-calls-for-bullbar-defects-to-be-repealed/)

[Sprint]

Here's another 'smart' person's bullbar ('smart' being used very loosely).

NSW Farmers calls for bullbar defects to be repealed | Moree Champion (http://www.moreechampion.com.au/story/2507074/nsw-farmers-calls-for-bullbar-defects-to-be-repealed/)

whats wrong with them?

[Cracka]

whats wrong with them?

Surely your'e trying to wind me up..............

[V8Ian]

whats wrong with them?

It would be no more obvious if they had "****** within" stickered across the top half of the windscreen.

[Mick_Marsh]

whats wrong with them?
I suspect they don't conform to the ADR's which call upon the Australian Standard which is applicable.

[Sprint]

Surely your'e trying to wind me up..............

Nope....


It would be no more obvious if they had "****** within" stickered across the top half of the windscreen.

They're hardly the average B&S wannabe's ute.... Theyre 4wd's, not lowered, and not from suburbia... its the wannabe's getting around in lowered commodores with the front end of a kenworth that are the *******...


I suspect they don't conform to the ADR's which call upon the Australian Standard which is applicable.

I'm sure owner of the vehicle has more of a problem with wildlife than the risk of some suburbanite glued to thier phone stepping out in front of him....

[Tote]

I suspect they don't conform to the ADR's which call upon the Australian Standard which is applicable.

Tuff Bullbars, the manufacturer would disagree with you.....

Regards,
Tote

[Mick_Marsh]

Tuff Bullbars, the manufacturer would disagree with you.....

Regards,
Tote
Well, looking at the vehicle in the background, the bullbar appears to ft the image depicted in AS4876.1-2002 figure 2.4 (b) which is labeled "Not acceptable".

[isuzurover]

Tuff Bullbars, the manufacturer would disagree with you.....

Regards,
Tote

if you read the press releases from tuff, they have strawman arguments that 5 posters are not prohibited by adrs /AS, which is quite true. However their bullbars are clearly non compliant, not because they are 5 posters, but rather because they angle forwards and have 'cow catchers' on the bottom.

[DiscoMick]

Thanks for the info down a few posts about roof lights. I admit its all so confusing with ADRs and state regs. that its hard to know what's OK.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Saitch]

Here's another 'smart' person's bullbar ('smart' being used very loosely).

NSW Farmers calls for bullbar defects to be repealed | Moree Champion (http://www.moreechampion.com.au/story/2507074/nsw-farmers-calls-for-bullbar-defects-to-be-repealed/)
I would say he's got his hands in his pockets to hide the hairy palms!

[Sprint]

I would say he's got his hands in his pockets to hide the hairy palms!

Speaking from personal experience?

[Mick_Marsh]

I'm sure owner of the vehicle has more of a problem with wildlife than the risk of some suburbanite glued to thier phone stepping out in front of him....
As do I and I'm sure many others on this forum.

[sheerluck]

Speaking from personal experience?

Absolutely. I shook hands with him once and it tickled.

[Mick_Marsh]

Absolutely. I shook hands with him once and it tickled.
Are you sure it was his hand?

[sheerluck]

Are you sure it was his hand?

Well it could have been someone else's. Perhaps it was the hand of his dead, but preserved mother. They're a funny lot out in the country.

[vnx205]

Are you sure it was his hand?


Well it could have been someone else's. Perhaps it was the hand of his dead, but preserved mother. They're a funny lot out in the country.

You have assumed the question was:
Are you sure it was his hand?

Maybe the question was:
Are you sure it was his hand?

[Mick_Marsh]

You have assumed the question was:
Are you sure it was his hand?

Maybe the question was:
Are you sure it was his hand?
Same answer.

They're a funny lot out in the country.

[sheerluck]

You have assumed the question was:
Are you sure it was his hand?

Maybe the question was:
Are you sure it was his hand?

I had originally intended to answer along the lines of "I knew it wasn't his cock, as that had a ninety degree bend in it", but then I decided to be a little obtuse instead. ;)

[Bigbjorn]

and have 'cow catchers' on the bottom.

In the heavy truck business these bars were known as pig rails. Their purpose being to stop smaller animals, pigs, dogs, roos, sheep, etc. from going under the main beam and getting stuck under the vehicle.

[Phil HH]

Member for Dubbo,Troy Grant, Media Release, re. the Minister for Roads and Freight Mr. Duncan Gay: "Mr Gay said however, bull bars that grossly exceed the current Australian Standards that are called up by NSW Regulations will not be exempt."


RMS (NSW) website: "These roadworthiness requirements and the relevant construction safety standards will be reviewed after Standards Australia completes a proposed Australian Standard on bull bars"


So it seems that we must conform to a standard that doesn't exist.


.

[isuzurover]

...

So it seems that we must conform to a standard that doesn't exist.


.

You don't state where your quote comes from, but the statement is incorrect. The standard was published in 2002 and was applied in most jurisdictions since 2003.


Standards Australia has published an Australian Standard AS 4876.1-2002 “Motor vehicle
frontal protection systems Part 1: Road user protection”. Part 1 of the standard concentrates
on the issue of minimising the risk of injury to pedestrians as a result of colliding with a
vehicle fitted with a bull bar.

The standard has this image which makes things fairly clear.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/901.jpg
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/~/media/images/safety%20and%20road%20rules/bullbarsillustration2.ashx


What TUFF bullbars are objecting to is the standard doesn't explicitly state 5-posters are illegal. Which is true, but a proper interpretation of the standard and the images above make it pretty obvious.
Many states have interpreted the standard and released guidance documents. This image is from the WA document:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

However I am sure they knew full well they were flouting the standards/law/state guidance documents.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
http://www.tuffbullbars.com/media/SITE_19/media/images/product/fullsize/123048.jpg

I will be very disappointed if the fines are repealed...

EDIT - I note TUFF seem to have added the tube corners outside the last post around when the standard came in.

[Sprint]

For all the people who think having a rearward sloping bar is a good thing..... I'm guessing you've never seen what happens when you hit a 'roo and it comes up over the bonnet?

[vnx205]

I have heard that an angry roo that has come through the windscreen can do more damage inside the vehicle than an angry pedestrian is likely to do in the same circumstances.
:p

[BMKal]

For all the people who think having a rearward sloping bar is a good thing..... I'm guessing you've never seen what happens when you hit a 'roo and it comes up over the bonnet?

Whether the bar is sloping forward or rearward has very little impact on whether a roo comes over the bonnet or not - it's more about how high the roo was off the ground when you hit him, relative to the front of your vehicle.

In other words, if the roo is "on the hop" and is fairly high off the ground when you hit him, there's a better chance of it coming over the bonnet regardless of the slope of your bar. If the roo is on the ground or crouched over when you hit it, to the extent that a forward sloping bar will push it down and under the vehicle, then it's highly unlikely that the roo would come over the bonnet even with a rearward sloping bar.

One of the first things that you learn about driving in the bush is that you should attempt to NEVER be hard on the brakes when you hit a roo. Brake as you approach the roo by all means, but if you realize that you are going to hit it, get off the brakes and if anything, accelerate - get the nose of the vehicle up as high as you can.

I've hit plenty of roos in vehicles with rearward sloping bars as defined by the Australian Standard, and have never had one even look like coming over the bonnet (emu's are a different story because of their higher centre of gravity - but again, the slope of a bar has little impact on where an emu is likely to end up). I have seen more than one vehicle that has had a roo come through the windscreen - and massive forward sloping bullbars have been installed. ;)

[ozscott]

I gave my bullbar another polish today :D

Cheers

[d2dave]

should attempt to NEVER be hard on the brakes when you hit a roo. Brake as you approach the roo by all means, but if you realize that you are going to hit it, get off the brakes and if anything, accelerate - get the nose of the vehicle up as high as you can.;)

We are talking about Landrovers here. Jumping on the go pedal will not make the nose any higher.:)

[Disco Muppet]

We are talking about Landrovers here. Jumping on the go pedal will not make the nose any higher.:)

Haven't got your Td5 remapped yet have you Dave :p

[Saitch]

I gave my bullbar another polish today :D

Cheers
That's a bit racist, picking out a person from a minority! ;)

[Disco Muppet]

Ozscott, Your bullbar, it speak with ze german accent, Ja?

[85 county]

so question

this has no efect on my 85 county and my old forward leaning bar?? correct tjm i think

[uninformed]

We are talking about Landrovers here. Jumping on the go pedal will not make the nose any higher.:)

And not just the lack of power. The front link design on coil sprung LR RRC and Discos has anti lift built into it... add a spring lift and the anti lift increases a fair bit....

[ozscott]

We are talking about Landrovers here. Jumping on the go pedal will not make the nose any higher.:)

My sister in law is Polish...better be careful what I say...
CHEERS!:D

[ozscott]

Ozscott, Your bullbar, it speak with ze german accent, Ja?

I know nuzsing...

:D

[85 county]

Ozscott, Your bullbar, it speak with ze german accent, Ja?

Handie Hock = all the German you need to know

[sheerluck]

Handie Hock = all the German you need to know

I assume you mean hände hoch, as in "hands up". What you have written is "mobile phone crouch".

You may get some funny looks attempting to use that phrase.

[85 county]

I assume you mean hände hoch, as in "hands up". What you have written is "mobile phone crouch".

You may get some funny looks attempting to use that phrase.


NA i got i correct, you are just using the wrong accent

[sheerluck]

NA i got i correct, you are just using the wrong accent

Yep, got it. In my mind I used a Greek guy attempting an Indian accent, and hit it perfectly.

[Disco Muppet]

Handie Hock = all the German you need to know

Disagree.
I think it's vital that I remember how to inform people that their horse is eating my hamburger, and they explain why it is tired.
Year 7 German is the key to survival in the modern world.
Fun fact: The German word for bullbar is, apparently, Rammschutz. Although further translation reveals it to be 'skirting protection'
Ihre Rammschutz ist nicht erlaubt! :nazilock:

[isuzurover]

Mein Luftkissenfarhzeug ist voll mit Aalen.

[sheerluck]

Disagree.
I think it's vital that I remember how to inform people that their horse is eating my hamburger, and they explain why it is tired.
Year 7 German is the key to survival in the modern world.
Fun fact: The German word for bullbar is, apparently, Rammschutz.
Ihre Rammschutz ist nicht erlaubt! :nazilock:

I disagree. "What time does the last donkey leave for the station, and does it go past the pool?"

I must admit, "bullbar" never came up in conversation when I lived there. I did learn lots more useful words than that though. :twisted:

[Disco Muppet]

Mein Luftkissenfarhzeug ist voll mit Aalen.

That's very good, but does it have a Bullbar?
Anyway, in other news...
Ich werde nicht kaufen, diese Aufnahme, es ist zerkratzt

[Disco Muppet]

I disagree. "What time does the last donkey leave for the station, and does it go past the pool?"

I must admit, "bullbar" never came up in conversation when I lived there. I did learn lots more useful words than that though. :twisted:

Don't suppose you know the Hungarian for "Can you direct me to the railway station?" :twisted: :p

[sheerluck]

Mein Luftkissenfarhzeug ist voll mit Aalen.

:Rolling:

Not a phrase you would often use.

[sheerluck]

Don't suppose you know the Hungarian for "Can you direct me to the railway station?" :twisted: :p

That page in my Hungarian phrase book is missing.

[Disco Muppet]

That page in my Hungarian phrase book is missing.

Stop that, it's silly. And slightly suspicious too.

[sheerluck]

So....errrr....what was the topic again?

Oh yes, Hungarian bullbars mowing down Greek donkeys. Discuss.

[BMKal]

What's that about hung like greek donkeys .................... :o

[85 county]

i remember all the Boat girls, scratching there backsides every time a Greek ship came in

do not remember any donkeys though

but then i suppose if hung like an ASS would mean no vasectomy needed

[Disco Muppet]

What's that about hung like greek donkeys .................... :o

Well they've got no money so they have to have something going for them....

[sheerluck]

i remember all the Boat girls, scratching there backsides every time a Greek ship came in

They should try a flea collar. Works on the dog.


do not remember any donkeys though

They probably hadn't learnt that flag. They were certainly there every time a Liberian oil tanker docked.


but then i suppose if hung like an ASS would mean no vasectomy needed

[101RRS]

I thought we were talking about issues associated with bull bars not donkeys :confused:

[sheerluck]

I thought we were talking about issues associated with bull bars not donkeys :confused:

Not being able to fit a bullbar to a donkey is an issue.

However, it probably would represent an upgrade from some of those utes in the story.

[Meken]

Let's talk about what a pedestrian feels like as he is it by a forward facing bar - isn't that where all this started?

[Disco Muppet]

Surely there's better ways to get people to talk about their feelings than running into them, bullbar or not.

[sheerluck]

Let's talk about what a pedestrian feels like as he is it by a forward facing bar - isn't that where all this started?

I believe it will start with a temporary feeling of elation as they go flying through the air, swiftly followed by a feeling of despair as they crunch into the floor.

A feeling of "oh ****" comes on quite quickly as the donkey that was following runs over them too.

[Meken]

I believe it will start with a temporary feeling of elation as they go flying through the air, swiftly followed by a feeling of despair as they crunch into the floor.



A feeling of "oh ****" comes on quite quickly as the donkey that was following runs over them too.


Don't you mean a temporary feeling of elevation... Oh no that would be with a rearward sloping bar ....

[85 county]

I believe it will start with a temporary feeling of elation as they go flying through the air, swiftly followed by a feeling of despair as they crunch into the floor.

A feeling of "oh ****" comes on quite quickly as the donkey that was following runs over them too.

and that would be a Donkey with a bullbar fitted to its ASS because there is a Greek ship and a Liberian full of Lube

i remember my Liberian from school. her ASS was like a bullbar

[nugge t]

Not sure if this has been covered but do the ADR rules apply to ALL vehicles including Government and Special Purpose vehicles or are ther exemptions?

[Mick_Marsh]

Not sure if this has been covered but do the ADR rules apply to ALL vehicles including Government and Special Purpose vehicles or are ther exemptions?
I'm sure there would be exemptions. In the same way emergency services personnel are exempted for mobile phone use whilst driving.
Where they would apply, I have no idea, but if a non approved bull bar is required on a modern vehicle, I'm sure it will be exempted.

[worane]

This topic has now got REALLY silly!

[JDNSW]

Not sure if this has been covered but do the ADR rules apply to ALL vehicles including Government and Special Purpose vehicles or are ther exemptions?

For a start, very few ADRs are retrospective, and I suspect this one is not either - but few bullbars were factory fitments anyway.

John

[nugge t]

Just an interesting aside because if the theory of pedestrian protection during impact is the driving force then why would there be exemptions? I am not talking about vintage trucks but current Govt fleet such as I saw this morning when some Army trucks went by in a metropolitan area.


The bullbars were forward leaning which is the first no no of the ADR requirement.

[Mick_Marsh]

Just an interesting aside because if the theory of pedestrian protection during impact is the driving force then why would there be exemptions? I am not talking about vintage trucks but current Govt fleet such as I saw this morning when some Army trucks went by in a metropolitan area.


The bullbars were forward leaning which is the first no no of the ADR requirement.
Yep. And there you have it.
The Perenties are complianced for two seats. I have seen 6x6 Perentie cargo variants driving around packed with a cargo of live soldiers and not a seat belt between them. Lots of rules don't apply to emergency services or government organisations.

[Meken]

It's the army, I'm sure it's a whole different set of rules.... But in any case if the army is in such a hurry to get somewhere that they knock over a couple of pedestrians, we probably have bigger problems to address than pedestrian safety (think war?)

[nugge t]

It's the army, I'm sure it's a whole different set of rules.... But in any case if the army is in such a hurry to get somewhere that they knock over a couple of pedestrians, we probably have bigger problems to address than pedestrian safety (think war?)



I think it maybe as well but I was wondering if anyone actually knew?


There are also rail maintenance vehicles I often see in our industrial area with big drop down steel rail track wheels which you would wonder about as well. Love to see how they go over a set of scales for GVM!

[BMKal]

I think it maybe as well but I was wondering if anyone actually knew?


There are also rail maintenance vehicles I often see in our industrial area with big drop down steel rail track wheels which you would wonder about as well. Love to see how they go over a set of scales for GVM!

I'd love to see how they go over a Commodore ................. :p :wasntme:

[VladTepes]

Personally, I don't have any problem at all with them throwing anything with this type of rubbish bolted to it off the road. This is just the sort of thing that gives the likes of Scruby and his mates the ammunition they need to have all bullbars banned. :censored:

Rubbish ! People like Scruby need no excuse, they will always try to ban anything they don't like whether reasonable or not.

He's against bull bars full stop. This would only ENCOURAGE him !

[Cracka]

I'm sure there would be exemptions. In the same way emergency services personnel are exempted for mobile phone use whilst driving.
Where they would apply, I have no idea, but if a non approved bull bar is required on a modern vehicle, I'm sure it will be exempted.

This talk of approved bull bars and whatnot, as I'm in the market for one.....I rang the Technical section of the RMS here in N.S.W yesterday to find out the goods on bullbars. I was told that any off road passenger built after 2003 if fitting a bulbar it MUST be ADR certified, but I think the year is actually 2000. The bar MUST have either the integrallabel or plate fitted stating the fact it is compliant.

So there goes any home made/boutique or overseas bars if you want to be 'legal'.

I think, my opinion only don't blast me, is that builders of bars who DO NOT fit the required ADR labelling/certify their bars as being compliant should be stating this fact on their websites and such so as buyers are not purchasing something that they think is 'legal'.

There are people who rightly or wrongly think if something is being freely sold on the open market that its ok to use.

To my mind it's not just the being 'legal' thing but what if the unfortunate happens and you have a frontal collision with another vehicle or a pedestrian, and you are at fault. The accident is investigated and your insurance company voids your insurance as the fitted bar was not ADR compliant. This is only valid if your vehicle requires a compliant bar obviously.

Mick

[101RRS]

Not sure if this has been covered but do the ADR rules apply to ALL vehicles including Government and Special Purpose vehicles or are ther exemptions?

I guess they can be exempt.

Not specifically bull bars but something similar.

We have bike racks on out Government Buses - get hit by one of these then a bit like getting hit by a 5 post bull bar - but then getting hit by any bus could ruin your day.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/gazzz21/media/Forum%20Posts%20Album/ActionBusBikeracks_zps4fb714a0.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/gazzz21/media/Forum%20Posts%20Album/Bus_and_Bikerack_zpsddf88832.png.html)

[TonyC]

I think it maybe as well but I was wondering if anyone actually knew?


There are also rail maintenance vehicles I often see in our industrial area with big drop down steel rail track wheels which you would wonder about as well. Love to see how they go over a set of scales for GVM!



I have a friend with an ex railways 130 that was fitted with HiRail wheels.
It is secondary plated as 4500 Kg GVM.

Tony

[London Boy]

I'd love to see how they go over a Commodore ................. :p :wasntme:
You ever seen a haul truck drive over a Toyota?

Best Dump Truck Running over a four wheel drive SUV Amazing Video ! - YouTube

[FANTOM P38]

How does it go? OH WHAT A FEELING :wasntme:

[nugge t]

I guess they can be exempt.

Not specifically bull bars but something similar.

We have bike racks on out Government Buses - get hit by one of these then a bit like getting hit by a 5 post bull bar - but then getting hit by any bus could ruin your day.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/gazzz21/media/Forum%20Posts%20Album/ActionBusBikeracks_zps4fb714a0.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/gazzz21/media/Forum%20Posts%20Album/Bus_and_Bikerack_zpsddf88832.png.html)

Mate that is a great example of exactly what I am referring to.


Whilst we are focusing on the bullbars, there are significantly wider implications if the enforcement is consistent and across the board. The copper on the power trip has actually opened a hornets nest when you start to really think about it.


How does the above comply when you get fined for having fishing rod holders facing forward in Qld. How about caravaners who have the big bolt on side mirrors on the metal A frame. There is an ADR on how side mirrors are supposed to fold on impact and I would bet they don't comply.


I guess my point is why single out the 4 and 5 posters. I personally don't really like them but why clamp down on them and let all these other things go.


Garycol's example of the bus is a cracker and where do buses like that predominantly drive.....right in the heart of pedestrianville I would bet. If the rack isn't bad enough, check out the way the pedal sticks out...very pedestrian friendly.

[BMKal]

You ever seen a haul truck drive over a Toyota?



Have seen the aftermath more than once. ;)

I have some very detailed and graphic pics that I won't post on here (people still trapped in the vehicle) of a HiLux that had just been reversed over by a Komatsu WA600 loader on a site that I was manager of at the time.

The girl driving the ute is still a close family friend - we went to her wedding in Thailand not that long back. She was very lucky and got out with minor injuries only. The bloke who was in the passenger seat spent a long time in Royal Perth Hospital and will never work in the mining or any heavy industry again - last I heard, he was selling used cars on the Gold Coast somewhere.

That incident took a heavy toll on quite a few of us - but it could have been a lot worse.

[Mick_Marsh]

How does the above comply when you get fined for having fishing rod holders facing forward in Qld. How about caravaners who have the big bolt on side mirrors on the metal A frame. There is an ADR on how side mirrors are supposed to fold on impact and I would bet they don't comply.

ADR 14-00 (Third Edition)


14.2.2.2.2. If the minor is in the 'Head Impact Area', the mounting shall deflect, collapse or break away without leaving sharp edges when the reflective surface of the mirror is subjected to a force of not more than 400 N in any 'Forward' direction that is not more than 45 degrees from the 'Forward longitudinal direction.
Consult the ADR's for proper application of this rule.

[TheTree]

Quote from Modifications book issued by Qld. Dept. of Transport and Main Roads.

Note also that no protuberances like lights or the top of any bull bar must be visible from the position of the driver's eyes.

Well that makes the factory bullbar on my 96 Rangie illegal, unless you are a vertically challenged driver :p

Steve

[TheTree]

I see plenty of clowns with rocket launchers on their bars driving around the central coast the cops here don't seem to be bothered.

I always think of them as "Gruyere Cheese makers" making holes in pedestrians instead of cheese :p

Steve

[Bigbjorn]

Well that makes the factory bullbar on my 96 Rangie illegal, unless you are a vertically challenged driver :p

Steve

It would most certainly be illegal. By the way, there is a legal definition of the position of the driver's eyes. Check the web site. It is a bugger of a site to find anything in, but this is there. Put simply, anything that can be seen from this position must be below the outline of the bonnet, other than one two-way radio antenna mounted on the left corner, and only there if there is nowhere else to place it.

Fishing rod holders must be turned back in behind the bull bar when not in use.

[Mick_Marsh]

Well that makes the factory bullbar on my 96 Rangie illegal, unless you are a vertically challenged driver :p

Steve
No, it shouldn't. Second edition ADRs apply. The standard and third edition ADRs came into effect after your bull bar was fitted.

[isuzurover]

Many people seem to be missing the fact that the current ADRs we are talking about came into force in 2003. All the vehicles they have been fining as part of this blitz (from what I have seen) are post 2003 vehicles which by definition must comply with the current ADR.

These bars are stilll legal (when fitted to a series LR), as they complied with the regs when the vehicle was manufactured.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1138.jpg

[TheTree]

It would most certainly be illegal. By the way, there is a legal definition of the position of the driver's eyes. Check the web site. It is a bugger of a site to find anything in, but this is there. Put simply, anything that can be seen from this position must be below the outline of the bonnet, other than one two-way radio antenna mounted on the left corner, and only there if there is nowhere else to place it.

Fishing rod holders must be turned back in behind the bull bar when not in use.

Interesting example because P38's were sold in 2000 with the exact same bar and I am pretty sure they are ADR compliant

There was mention at the CC4WD club last night about this being discussed at the regional 4wd council, so it may not just be rural drivers either but some kind of decision to enforce the rules (whatever they are exactly)

A tradie with a Conduit Carrier mounted to the front of the bar is legal when carrying conduit but illegal when empty apparently

Steve

[DiscoMick]

How many magazine stories have there been in which blokes boast about how clever they were to knock up this impressive bull bar for their super truck and how cool it looks, never mentioning that its actually illegal, they've committed a crime and they've almost certainly voided their insurance. Makes me laugh sometimes.

[Cracka]

How many magazine stories have there been in which blokes boast about how clever they were to knock up this impressive bull bar for their super truck and how cool it looks, never mentioning that its actually illegal, they've committed a crime and they've almost certainly voided their insurance. Makes me laugh sometimes.

This is exactly what I was alluding to in my last post on this topic. But it's not only the backyard blokes, there are vendors doing exactly the same thing, selling bars built here in Aus or importing bars for sale that are not ADR compliant.........

That's what is annoying, they should state the fact they're not and are for use on vehicles pre dating the ADR compliance or 'comp' use only.

[V8Ian]

I guess they can be exempt.

Not specifically bull bars but something similar.

We have bike racks on out Government Buses - get hit by one of these then a bit like getting hit by a 5 post bull bar - but then getting hit by any bus could ruin your day.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/Forum%20Posts%20Album/ActionBusBikeracks_zps4fb714a0.jpg (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/gazzz21/media/Forum%20Posts%20Album/ActionBusBikeracks_zps4fb714a0.jpg.html)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/Forum%20Posts%20Album/Bus_and_Bikerack_zpsddf88832.png (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/gazzz21/media/Forum%20Posts%20Album/Bus_and_Bikerack_zpsddf88832.png.html)

I'll warrant that bus also fails to comply with the overall length and front overhang standards.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

I think it maybe as well but I was wondering if anyone actually knew?


There are also rail maintenance vehicles I often see in our industrial area with big drop down steel rail track wheels which you would wonder about as well. Love to see how they go over a set of scales for GVM!

I'm pretty sure I found something that made Army service vehicles exempt from ADRs (sorry can't find a link :mad: ), but if you buy a Perentie privately then it does need to comply to the relevant ADRs.

[slug_burner]

Army vehicles will comply with ADRs wherever possible, Defence is a good corporate citizen. Exemptions need to be granted and are not just taken. One area that some military vehicles don't comply with is visibility/light transmission because or armoured glass, exemptions have to be applied for by the company selling the vehicle to Defence.

[snafubar]

(edit: just realised I'm replying to an ancient post. And off thread.....)Hey olbod, have you ever been out walking in the dark with a torch in tour hand by your side, do you recall ever lifting it up - maybe even holding it above your head - to light up the path ahead. I think for the same reason light towers are high, elevated spot lights give an advantage when driving at night. As long as they are not setup to give glare from the bonnet!

[101RRS]

A few people on here have expressed concern about how well modern bull bars that slope back protect occupants from animal hits. Now I really cannot comment on this as I have little personal experience.

Here is an example from my brother in the last day or so - this is one of the cars that his staff use on the job. I believe the vehicle has a ARB bar fitted.

His words.

"2 guys were doing 110km at night when they passed another car.

They hit a black cow which they didn’t see until 10 minutes after, they found it 2m in the bush.

The cow went over the top of the car. They didn’t roll the car but engine was pushed back and from the front of the door to the back of the ute was shortened 50mm.

Both walked away but passenger despite wearing belt and air bags still hit his head on the windscreen.

The bull bar is what saved them as it looks like it spread the impact across the whole front of the car and pushed the cow in the air."

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

So maybe modern bars do work well when hitting not only pedestrians, but animals as well. I wonder what would have happened if the car had been fitted with a sloping forward multi post bar forcing the car underneath, no doubt propelling the car into the air.

Cheers


Garry

[V8Ian]

A few people on here have expressed concern about how well modern bull bars that slope back protect occupants from animal hits. Now I really cannot comment on this as I have little personal experience.

Here is an example from my brother in the last day or so - this is one of the cars that his staff use on the job. I believe the vehicle has a ARB bar fitted and the vehicle is a HiLux.

His words.

"2 guys were doing 110km at night when they passed another car.

They hit a black cow which they didn’t see until 10 minutes after, they found it 2m in the bush.

The cow went over the top of the car. They didn’t roll the car but engine was pushed back and from the front of the door to the back of the ute was shortened 50mm.

Both walked away but passenger despite wearing belt and air bags still hit his head on the windscreen.

The bull bar is what saved them as it looks like it spread the impact across the whole front of the car and pushed the cow in the air."

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83961&d=1410855091

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83963&d=1410855279

So maybe modern bars do work well when hitting not only pedestrians, but animals as well. I wonder what would have happened if the car had been fitted with a sloping forward multi post bar forcing the car underneath, no doubt propelling the car into the air.

Cheers


Garry



I wonder if the cow would have gone through the windscreen, had they been travelling slower.

[bob10]

I wonder if the cow would have gone through the windscreen, had they been travelling slower.


Agree. I wonder if they would have hit it, if they were driving smarter. Breath tested? Bob

[chuck]

Tuff the people who manufacturer the five posters have a statement on their web site stating their bars comply with the necessary standards

They also supply compliance certificates.

They have challenged the NSW police to an engineering debate apparently.

[isuzurover]

Tuff the people who manufacturer the five posters have a statement on their web site stating their bars comply with the necessary standards

They also supply compliance certificates.

They have challenged the NSW police to an engineering debate apparently.

Sorry but that is wrong and misleading.

The relevant part of the open letter on the tuff website states (my bolding):

What is of particular concern to TUFF is the suggestion in the article that bullbars are non compliant because they have five posts. That is simply not the case. There is nothing whatsoever in the Australian Standard AS4876.1-2002 or the relevant Australian Design Rules which prohibits five post bullbars. The relevant requirement under AS4876.1-2002 is that the bullbar "generally conforms to the shape, in plan view, front view and side view, of the front of the vehicle to which it is fitted".

The bolded bit is quite true. They have quite carefully not stated unequivocally that their bars comply with AS4876.1-2002. I have a copy of the standard and I cannot see how they can argue that most of their bars comply.

e.g. this bar:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

In no way does that bar :
"generally conforms to the shape, in plan view, front view and side view, of the front of the vehicle to which it is fitted" as the standard requires
http://www.tuffbullbars.com/media/SITE_19/media/images/product/fullsize/123048.jpg

I would like to see the "compliance certificates" they supply...???

They are right though that 5 post bars are not inherently illegal. I suspect that have added the tube corners past the outer posts in order to attempt to comply with part of the legislation, however they fail due to the profile of most of their bars.


...
For some reason I am experiencing deja vu here (from p10)

You don't state where your quote comes from, but the statement is incorrect. The standard was published in 2002 and was applied in most jurisdictions since 2003.



The standard has this image which makes things fairly clear.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/901.jpg
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/~/media/images/safety%20and%20road%20rules/bullbarsillustration2.ashx


What TUFF bullbars are objecting to is the standard doesn't explicitly state 5-posters are illegal. Which is true, but a proper interpretation of the standard and the images above make it pretty obvious.
Many states have interpreted the standard and released guidance documents. This image is from the WA document:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/82875d1409102577-bull-bar-blitz-rural-drivers-fined-bullbar_wa.jpg

However I am sure they knew full well they were flouting the standards/law/state guidance documents.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
http://www.tuffbullbars.com/media/SITE_19/media/images/product/fullsize/123048.jpg

I will be very disappointed if the fines are repealed...

EDIT - I note TUFF seem to have added the tube corners outside the last post around when the standard came in.

[V8Ian]

. I wonder if they would have hit it, if they were driving smarter. Breath tested? BobThat's a bit harsh Bob. It's almost impossible to see a black cow on an unlit road.

[d2dave]

That's a bit harsh Bob. It's almost impossible to see a black cow on an unlit road.

X2 on this. We have had people die around my area for the same reason and the cow does not have to be black.

[101RRS]

On this point I assumed that the crashed car had just overtook the other car but it passed the car going in the opposite direction so had the other vehicles headlights in their eyes for a few seconds and hit the cow on their side of the road as they just passed the other vehicle and before the drivers eye re-adjusted.

[Sprint]

Agree. I wonder if they would have hit it, if they were driving smarter. Breath tested? Bob

a few years ago a falcon ute hit a horse that had escaped from a drovers camp maybe 15km north of emerald

the horse came through the windscreen and the driver was killed

would you, from your earlier statement, suggest that that the driver undergo a posthumous blood alcohol test to see if the driver was under the influence of alcohol at the time of impact?

what about the driver of the ambulance that first responded? because it, too hit a horse, hard enough that it wrote off the F250 ambulance?

[JDNSW]

a few years ago a falcon ute hit a horse that had escaped from a drovers camp maybe 15km north of emerald

the horse came through the windscreen and the driver was killed

would you, from your earlier statement, suggest that that the driver undergo a posthumous blood alcohol test to see if the driver was under the influence of alcohol at the time of impact?

what about the driver of the ambulance that first responded? because it, too hit a horse, hard enough that it wrote off the F250 ambulance?

It is my understanding that in NSW (and probably in other states as well) that all drivers (dead or alive) in all fatal accidents automatically are subjected to blood tests. I suspect this is routinely applied to all serious accidents as well as fatals.

This is not "to see if the driver was under the influence of alcohol at the time of impact" but to simply determine the status of one causal factor beyond dispute, and is part of the normal investigation.

John

[Sprint]

It is my understanding that in NSW (and probably in other states as well) that all drivers (dead or alive) in all fatal accidents automatically are subjected to blood tests. I suspect this is routinely applied to all serious accidents as well as fatals.

This is not "to see if the driver was under the influence of alcohol at the time of impact" but to simply determine the status of one causal factor beyond dispute, and is part of the normal investigation.

John

havent got a problem with that, just had a problem with the inference that the driver may have been under the influence, and that may have contributed to the crash....

[d2dave]

In Vic all passengers that are taken to hospital after a crash have a blood sample taken for BAC.

[chuck]

"I will be very disappointed if the fines are repealed"...

If a person has bought one of these bull bars and it has a certificate of compliance why would you want to the purchasers fined & penalised.

The law works on the premise of what a reasonable man ought to know.

The reasonable man does not need to know the ADR's all he needs to know is that he bought a product of a company & was given a compliance certificate.

BTW - I have no association with Tuff at all & would not even think about putting one on my car, but that is not the point.

According to your logic if an electrical compliance catch's fire due to not being designed correctly even though it has a CE certificate the customer would get fined & not reimbursed.

[Mick_Marsh]

The law works on the premise of what a reasonable man ought to know.
Not in today's world.
I wish you were right. I'd love to see documented legislation that supports your opinion.

[DiscoMick]

A friends son was driving a taxi van near Alice and hit a camel which became wedged in the windscreen. He survived OK, but the camel had to be put down. Van was totalled.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[chuck]

Reasonable Person
A phrase frequently used in tort and Criminal Law to denote a hypothetical person in society who exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct and who serves as a comparative standard for determining liability.

The decision whether an accused is guilty of a given offense might involve the application of an objective test in which the conduct of the accused is compared to that of a reasonable person under similar circumstances. In most cases, persons with greater than average skills, or with special duties to society, are held to a higher standard of care. For example, a physician who aids a person in distress is held to a higher standard of care than is an ordinary person.


The test of a reasonable man is easily found, above is one definition.
I was taught this during my training as a Worksafe Inspector many year ago.
The reasonable man test is one of the basic components for law.

Having said the above we could not use it a defence because it could be said we have more knowledge about 5 post bull bars than a reasonable man - think 22 year old male in rural environment that has a receipt and certificate of compliance for his 5 post bull bar.

[UncleHo]

I was a passenger in a 1961 Chrysler Royal Sedan that was hit/jumped into, by a 6 foot Roo while we were travelling at 60mph (97Kph) it did not quite clear the bonnet mascot (standard equipment) ripped the roo open and the lot, still kicking came through the windscreen,both driver and front seat passenger were injured,the Royal interior shreaded,and the driver's father furious,Insurance wrote it off as the stench was unbearable.

[JDNSW]

I was a passenger in a 1961 Chrysler Royal Sedan that was hit/jumped into, by a 6 foot Roo while we were travelling at 60mph (97Kph) it did not quite clear the bonnet mascot (standard equipment) ripped the roo open and the lot, still kicking came through the windscreen,both driver and front seat passenger were injured,the Royal interior shreaded,and the driver's father furious,Insurance wrote it off as the stench was unbearable.

A few months ago, near here, a young girl received a bravery award for running along the road to the top of a hill about half a mile away to get mobile coverage and call for help after a roo came through the windscreen and seriously injured her mother who was driving. Not reported on whether the vehicle had a bullbar, let alone what type.

John

[Sprint]

Oh but lets protect the innocent pedestrian from the big mean car with the bigger, meaner bullbar, forget the poor bastard behind the wheel getting **** kicked out of him by the 'roo thats just been launched over the bonnet by the pedestrian friendly 'roo bar....

[UncleHo]

Love it Sprint! :D

[Sprint]

Forgot to add: In both situations, the car hits something that doesnt want to get hit, but we're still protecting the animal that should know better....

[c.h.i.e.f]

If they end up enforcing the no 5 post bars etc etc and my car gets damaged I will be sending the repair bill to the state government :D I won't be removing my bar they can kiss me where the sun don't shine...I've been threw 2 arb bars by hitting animals and on both occasions it has damaged my previous utes I recently just purchased a new ute and kitted it out with a 5 poster and scrub bars and it's already payed for itself numerous times as when I'm out on roads in western nsw at all times of night I ain't stoping for pests it's as simple as that and if a human decides to be stupid enough to cross in front of me while I am abiding by the rules I wouldn't loose sleep at night to be honest its simple as don't get hit by a car full stop who cares what bar ya got...

[isuzurover]

If they end up enforcing the no 5 post bars etc etc and my car gets damaged I will be sending the repair bill to the state government :D ...

As Tuff bullbars correctly state there is nothing in the standards/legislation which make 5 post bars illegal.

Link to the rules is here:
http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/bull-bar-tolerances.pdf

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/bull-bar-tolerances.pdf

roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/bull-bar-tolerances.pdf

What is illegal is:
If the bar does not have rounded/chamfered front faces of the posts
If the bar comes forward of the bumper by more than 100 mm
If the bar is >50 mm higher then the leading edge of the bonnet
If the bar has >100 mm step between the centre posts and the outer posts

[London Boy]

If they end up enforcing the no 5 post bars etc etc and my car gets damaged I will be sending the repair bill to the state government :D I won't be removing my bar they can kiss me where the sun don't shine...I've been threw 2 arb bars by hitting animals and on both occasions it has damaged my previous utes I recently just purchased a new ute and kitted it out with a 5 poster and scrub bars and it's already payed for itself numerous times as when I'm out on roads in western nsw at all times of night I ain't stoping for pests it's as simple as that and if a human decides to be stupid enough to cross in front of me while I am abiding by the rules I wouldn't loose sleep at night to be honest its simple as don't get hit by a car full stop who cares what bar ya got...
Good luck with all that when they take your house to cover the compo and crush your car to get it off the road. You can't fight it.
Drive more slowly seems a good bet.

[Tote]

Good luck with all that when they take your house to cover the compo and crush your car to get it off the road. You can't fight it.
Drive more slowly seems a good bet.

"They" being who?? There is no legal basis in NSW for anyone to crush a car for not complying with ADRs.
The drive more slowly comment shows a lack of experience in driving in rural Australia
Stop trolling

Tote

[boa]

People who hit animals are just bad driver's. I have driven many miles in outback conditions. You have a big bull bar, all that shows is you need to be protected from your own driving style. If I cannot see a problem I have the ability to not worry. So I can drive the way I like with no intention in actually driving too the conditions. Animals are part of the conditions.

[Homestar]

People who hit animals are just bad driver's. I have driven many miles in outback conditions. You have a big bull bar, all that shows is you need to be protected from your own driving style. If I cannot see a problem I have the ability to not worry. So I can drive the way I like with no intention in actually driving too the conditions. Animals are part of the conditions.

Now that is borderline trolling. Do you really expect not to get negative responses to that comment?

Don't come crying to me when you get a bollocking from everyone about it...

[bob10]

People who hit animals are just bad driver's. I have driven many miles in outback conditions. You have a big bull bar, all that shows is you need to be protected from your own driving style. If I cannot see a problem I have the ability to not worry. So I can drive the way I like with no intention in actually driving too the conditions. Animals are part of the conditions.


Sorry, but you have obviously not driven in the outback, at dusk ,early morning, or at night. I stop short of saying your post is rubbish. But only just. Bob

[85 county]

People who hit animals are just bad driver's. I have driven many miles in outback conditions. You have a big bull bar, all that shows is you need to be protected from your own driving style. If I cannot see a problem I have the ability to not worry. So I can drive the way I like with no intention in actually driving too the conditions. Animals are part of the conditions.

bob backed out, but i'm not.

you post is rubbish,

[Homestar]

That's very polite guys...:D

[LandyAndy]

I just got my animal/pedestrian/cyclist control device fitted today.
Looks a million bucks too;);););)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/330.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/004_zps8b84bcae.jpg.html)

Andrew

[V8Ian]

Sorry, but you have obviously not driven in the outback, at dusk ,early morning, or at night. I stop short of saying your post is rubbish. But only just. Bob

You forgot daylight Bob. The only animal strike I've had in the Disco was a 5' 'roo (note not wallaby) a bit west of Kununurra at 15.00 hrs at a leisurely 80 kph. There was no hope of missing that kamakazi kanga, regardless of skill level.

In my opinion, five posters are just **** factor, it doesn't matter how tuff, tough or strong they are, they're still only bolted to a bit of tin that's going to bend.

I once helped a panel beater mate refit one of those pieces of crud to a Commodore ute after extensive repairs caused entirely by the lack of approach angle, when the car ventured into a table drain. Had the car not been fitted with a bar, or fitted with an approved bar, there would have been no damage.

[V8Ian]

Looks good Andrew. :BigThumb:

[V8Ian]

I just got my animal/pedestrian/cyclist control device fitted today.
Looks a million bucks too;);););)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/330.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/004_zps8b84bcae.jpg.html)

Andrew
It needs some FYRLYTs mate. ;)

[Bytemrk]

Looks great Andy,

I actually prefer the look of the OL bar to the ARB on mine... looks great!

[LandyAndy]

It needs some FYRLYTs mate. ;)

In the shed waiting;);););)
Andrew

[Bytemrk]

You have a big bull bar, all that shows is you need to be protected from your own driving style. If I cannot see a problem I have the ability to not worry. So I can drive the way I like with no intention in actually driving too the conditions.

You might want to consider there are other reasons for putting a bull bar on a vehicle.

Convenient winch and driving light mounting being one.

Improved approach angle being another. ( And the ability not to destroy the front air dam on any road with a high centre and deep wheel ruts)

So not all of us are driving around culling wildlife with our eyes or minds closed.... just saying.... ;)

[LandyAndy]

And to show the difference in identical D4s with and without here is a pic that shown the increased front clearance!!!!!.
My D4 has brilliant lighting,has the bi-xenon upgrade.USELESS in the bush,no where near enough depth to travel at the legal 110kmh.Now I can upgrade my ligthing,lights and wiring were purchased months ago awaiting the bar!!!!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/575.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/002_zpsb6b79fdd.jpg.html)
Andrew

[boa]

Now that is borderline trolling. Do you really expect not to get negative responses to that comment?

Don't come crying to me when you get a bollocking from everyone about it...
Why would I. The comment comes from years of driving, both professional and holidays. I was a test driver for Ford Motor Company. I have driven 4wds since 1980. Over this time I have driven all over Australia including 17 years in WA. At night over all different roads. My comment come from the attitude of the people I worked with and the general public. Over many campfires and pubs. I am not a troll or wish to be. I am just commenting on my experience. In all of my driving I have not hit anything. I have come close I have also been disciplined on driving to fast for other drivers.

[boa]

You might want to consider there are other reasons for putting a bull bar on a vehicle.

Convenient winch and driving light mounting being one.

Improved approach angle being another. ( And the ability not to destroy the front air dam on any road with a high centre and deep wheel ruts)

So not all of us are driving around culling wildlife with our eyes or minds closed.... just saying.... ;)
Agree I have had bull bars on all of my vehicles private and work except my current rangy . What I think is, it is not an object to support my bad road skills.
As In I don't need to look for wildlife as I have a bullbar to protect me.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Good luck with all that when they take your house to cover the compo and crush your car to get it off the road. You can't fight it.
Drive more slowly seems a good bet.

Mate when ya spending as much time on the road as me incompetence from other drivers ****s me :mad: if ya can't keep up get off the road I have places to be and things to do...I'm far from a fast or unsafe driver however I don't shag around I'm there to get from A-B and when someone is jining around that's what causes accidents...I have the bar on there so that I don't have to slow down for ferals saves a fair bit of time really

[boa]

Sorry, but you have obviously not driven in the outback, at dusk ,early morning, or at night. I stop short of saying your post is rubbish. But only just. Bob

Why do people make a comment, when they have no history of the person they are committing on?.

[Tote]

Because they were baited:wasntme:

Regards,
Tote

[Disco Muppet]

Why do people make a comment, when they have no history of the person they are committing on?.

You mean like....

You telling forum members here that the reason they hit animals is because they're bad drivers?

How many of the forum members do you know the driving history of?
How many incidents of forum members hitting animals are you privy to the details of?

The lady doth protest too much methinks....

[c.h.i.e.f]

People who hit animals are just bad driver's. I have driven many miles in outback conditions. You have a big bull bar, all that shows is you need to be protected from your own driving style. If I cannot see a problem I have the ability to not worry. So I can drive the way I like with no intention in actually driving too the conditions. Animals are part of the conditions.

Haha must not be in the right places then...try driving between the following at night
1.St George - mitchell Qld
2.barcaldine - long reach Qld
3.long reach - winton Qld
4.burren junction - wee Waa nsw
5.hebel - lightning ridge nsw
6.lightning ridge - walgett nsw
7.warren - carinda nsw
Just to name a few
Sit on the speed limit tell me how ya go...either you'll still be driving a week later as you'd be doing 50kmh max or you'd have hit a feral somewhere...