Engine chip upgrade and/or intercooler upgrade

[TroyFenda]

I'm looking at upgrading the chip and doing a remap of my '09 Defender for increased performance and am wondering what other (more intelligent and experienced) opinions are out there with respect to also upgrading the intercooler at the same time.

At present I am getting mixed views as to the requirement to do both, with some suggesting that the chip and remap alone will be sufficient for extra performance and will not cause any long term damage. Others say the factory intercooler is insufficient and should also be replaced at the same time as a chip upgrade.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

[Naks]

I'm looking at upgrading the chip and doing a remap

:confused:

Either you chip it or you remap it, and we all know that the former is a kak idea. Get a remap, pref from BAS/Alive/IRB, etc.

Bigger intercooler is also a good mod, and obviously a decat as well will help.

[Drover]

If you've got the $$$$

Do the intercooler (AliSport), BAS (Bell Auto Services) remap, Decat and Centre muffler removal and replace the factory ducting from guard vent/snorkel to the air box - replace with 90mm tube. For the ducting mod contact Nugget on this forum for his custom kit.

I have done these mods over 50,000k's ago without issue.

Current 2014 BAS map gives me about 450nm and 120kw.

[Aaron]

Ive got the BAS re map and love it. Ill more than likely put in a bigger intercooler just because I think its better for the engine. I probably won't bother getting it remapped again to get more power out of the intercooler because I just don't need it.

[The Cone of Silence]

As discussed before Troy, I went to Davis Performance Landys for the remap, installed the Allisport intercooler and also the Nugget airbox kit to properly seal the airbox and supply a wider bore air hose.

Individually each of these mods has a very clear benefit so if you have the $ for the change I'd highly recommend each.

All three combined will change the way the vehicle performs considerably.

[Deelerock]

TCOS.. do you know what the figures were for the gains? was it very noticable in top gear?

in my old 110 puma i had the remap and it was very noticable i could drive around in 6th after 60km/h. it pulled well uphill. i just picked up a 130 puma, stock... and it has no pull in 6th unless travelling faster than 80. I never knew what the torqe or power figures were.

[TroyFenda]

Sorry for the confusion there Naks....I'm still learning a huge amount when it comes to Defenders.

If money were no option I'd do everything that has been suggested but having spent a few thousand plus already on other options and some good quality camping gear (inc. Engel fridge, Diamantina Campmor tent, solar panels etc) I need to be selective with my near-term upgrades.

TCOS aka Bobby has been really helpful to date and I've contacted some people already that he was good enough to recommend. That said the remap and intercooler options are $2400 combined which is a fair chunk of money in one hit. I was thinking of doing the remap first followed by the inter cooler at a later date.

As far as performance figures are concerned the business TCOS had mentioned to me, off the top of my head, I believe they quoted an increase up to 135kw and 460nm torque.

That said, last night I towed a trailer weighing around 1100kg along a highway and found it still accelerated up a moderate hill in 6th from 85km/hr to 100km/hr. It wasn't blistering, but it still did it a reasonable rate...and we had a combined weight of around 250kg of gear on the roof and in the rear.

[Drover]

The intercooler will provide some performance increases but will offer some engine protection from increased EGT's, the enemy of the modern deisel.

The Safer option for the long term life of your engine is to install the intercooler first.

If I may, towing in 6th below 2000rpm's is putting unnecessary strain on the box. I also tow a trailer of about 1200kg's and alway go back to '5th when revs drop below 2000rpm, on big hills or when the throttle response is low.

[Chops]

I did wonder about whether the inter oil should be done first,, good info here fella's.

So what are rough estimates of the three individual costs per item?

[Tombie]

Some comments make me cringe... Labouring an engine in top gear is NOT good for the vehicle.

EGTs would be climbing rapidly, gears stressed...

All for the sake of a clutch press and gear change...

Drivers need to do more of that - Drive...

(Thats all for now)

[Beery]

Im a bit confused here.
On one hand an EGR valve mixes oxygen depleted exhaust gas with fresh air to reduce the O2 available for combustion therefore REDUCING combustion temps and the formation of nitrogen oxides.
On the other hand, a larger intercooler feeds a cooler, more O2 rich air charge to the cylinders...apparently also REDUCING combustion temps!

I'm missing something here...

Tom

[Tombie]

More air + same amount of fuel = cooler

[Beery]

More air + same amount of fuel = cooler

Really? But that still contradicts the theory of an EGR which works on - Less air @ same amount of fuel = cooler

[Tombie]

Really? But that still contradicts the theory of an EGR which works on - Less air @ same amount of fuel = cooler


The specific heat ratio of CO2 and water is higher than Oxygen so it absorbs more heat from the process. Exhaust gas is essential these elements.

And yes to diesel AFR, a Petrol engine is the opposite where more fuel = less heat.

[Tombie]

Im a bit confused here.
On one hand an EGR valve mixes oxygen depleted exhaust gas with fresh air to reduce the O2 available for combustion therefore REDUCING combustion temps and the formation of nitrogen oxides.
On the other hand, a larger intercooler feeds a cooler, more O2 rich air charge to the cylinders...apparently also REDUCING combustion temps!

I'm missing something here...

Tom


In a diesel at idle, there is far more air than needed so the charge is still pretty high, a diesel can run up to ~50% Exhaust gas

[Beery]

The specific heat ratio of CO2 and water is higher than Oxygen so it absorbs more heat from the process. Exhaust gas is essential these elements.

And yes to diesel AFR, a Petrol engine is the opposite where more fuel = less heat.

Ahhhhh ok, that sort of makes sense.
So the CO2 actually absorbs heat from combustion to lower peak temps regarding EGR?

I also didnt realise AFR has any effect on diesel combustion temps. Unlike petrols where the evaporation of a spirit has a cooling effect.

All a bit technical sorry. I'd just want some pretty well founded and qualified advice before spending big $$$ on an intercooler to lower EGT's.

Cheers
Tom

[Tombie]

That's cool Tom.

So with a diesel, if you want more power you can just pump in more diesel the mixture doesn't burnt properly but a diesel will keep taking, EGTs will keep rising and eventually the engine will melt down.

With the IC the charge from the turbo is hot (compress and it will heat up) - reducing O2 density - cooling it down increases it's density and O2 charge providing more oxygen in a cooler parcel to feed with the fuel...

[Beery]

That's cool Tom.

So with a diesel, if you want more power you can just pump in more diesel the mixture doesn't burnt properly but a diesel will keep taking, EGTs will keep rising and eventually the engine will melt down.

With the IC the charge from the turbo is hot (compress and it will heat up) - reducing O2 density - cooling it down increases it's density and O2 charge providing more oxygen in a cooler parcel to feed with the fuel...

Thanks Tombie

So, more complete combustion = lower peak temp.

If I disable the EGR valve then, do EGT's rise? Seeing there function is to reduce peak temps..

[Tombie]

EGRs primary function is NOx control, and works at idle / very low throttle (fuel) openings.

EGTs really are influenced by throttle/load which is when the EGR is at 0%.

[Naks]

Thanks Tombie
So, more complete combustion = lower peak temp.
If I disable the EGR valve then, do EGT's rise? Seeing there function is to reduce peak temps..



IME, disabling the EGR results in lower EGTs, since the combustion is now more efficient.

IOW, you are giving it less throttle for the same performance.

[Beery]

IME, disabling the EGR results in lower EGTs, since the combustion is now more efficient.
IOW, you are giving it less throttle for the same performance.

Cheers Naks

Im now realising that EGR function in a diesel is very different to a petrol.

In my experience, disabling the EGR is probably the single BEST thing you can do for the longevity, efficieny and reliability of a modern diesel engine.

On my current BT50 (still waiting for the 130 to arrive) I blanked the EGR when I bought it. That, along with using Delvac 1 and a Donaldson synthetic media filter means the oil doesnt change colour for about the first 3000km after an oil change!

I know exactly what I'll be disconnecting the moment I drive my new Defender out of the dealer's yard!!

Tom

[Drover]

Not so easy to disable the EGR on a PUMA.

Blanking it off will cause the engine light to come on and record faults and cause warranty issues with the dealer.

It needs to be close electronically. Email Bell Auto Service for advise on how to do this with new 2.2lt.

https://secure.bellautoservices.co.uk/store/remap-defender-2-2-tdci-puma/'menuid=24

[Beery]

Not so easy to disable the EGR on a PUMA.

Blanking it off will cause the engine light to come on and record faults and cause warranty issues with the dealer.

It needs to be close electronically. Email Bell Auto Service for advise on how to do this with new 2.2lt.

https://secure.bellautoservices.co.uk/store/remap-defender-2-2-tdci-puma/'menuid=24

Dont think I'd worry about blanking on the puma, just disconnect the power to the valve from brand new...until I get around to remapping. I can live with the engine light in the meantime.

Think I might talk to DPL in Sydney though for the remap...just call it personal preference.

Regarding warranty and fault logging...I can just reconnect it before a service, long enough for the engine light to reset itself.
If they ask any questions I'll just shrug my shoulders and say "I dunno, Im no mechanic I just drive the thing" :wasntme:

[Drover]

The engine light will reset after a set amount of "starts"without a fault code being received. From memory I thinks is was 3.

Tombie might know.

[TroyFenda]

I've heard from a couple mechanics that the EGR can play a vital role in protecting the engine in the event of a turbo over boost situation where catastrophic damage can be done very quickly.

I've also heard very mixed reviews on inter coolers and the increased power figures that they purportedly deliver. Again, a couple different mechanics (of whom some are specialist diesel mechanics) have mentioned results with some inter cooler installs where the gains have been marginal at best.

....so much conflicting information :(

[Tombie]

EGR in *some* engines has an additional butterfly which *could* be used to shut off the air to the engine in the case of runaway - but this is neither common, nor a function of the ECU so not very factual.

Turbine over boost is a product of Exhaust gas volume - and the EGR won't have a significant effect on this as it works predominantly at idle (so low exhaust volume anyway) and is closed at high load/rpm (boost).

As for intercoolers: just throwing an Intercooler on and expecting a power gain is not likely - there may, from flow changes/pressure drop etc be a slightly improvement.

What an IC allows is:
Improved cooling of intake charge (important at higher boost levels and temperatures)
Often better flow / reduced pressure drop through the core
More fuel to be added to the tune as the density of the air (from being cooler) carries more O2 to the engine.

So if you aren't planning to remap, unless your stock core is damaged and needs replacement, I wouldn't bother upgrading.

[Beery]

EGR in *some* engines has an additional butterfly which *could* be used to shut off the air to the engine in the case of runaway - but this is neither common, nor a function of the ECU so not very factual.

Tombie, AFAIK just about every modern small diesel with EGR has the butterfly valve, they cant get their EGR flow rates high enough without it.

It also serves the purpose of stopping the rocking/shaking of the engine at shutdown by cutting off the air intake...i.e. no/little air in the cylinders to compress. So it shuts every time you turn the key off.

Stopping the rare event of a runaway engine is a coincidental benefit.

Cheers
Tom

[TroyFenda]

Well, the results are in following the chip upgrade.

After some good advice from various corners I decided to start the engine improvements with a simple chip upgrade from Steinbauer. The result is an increase of 25% in kW output and an astounding 35% increase in torque from 381nm to just over 515nm.

I've also added an after market additional fuel filter for extra protection.

If anyone would like a copy of the actual dyno test I'm happy to email it if people can pm an email address.

[AndyG]

Are you doing an EGT gauge upfront ?

[TroyFenda]

Are you doing an EGT gauge upfront ?

I hadn't planned on doing it immediately but will do at some point in the near future. I'm assuming your question is likely a highly recommended suggestion.

[Naks]

...I decided to start the engine improvements with a simple chip upgrade from Steinbauer. The result is an increase of 25% in kW output and an astounding 35% increase in torque from 381nm to just over 515nm. ...


this is probably not going to end well... chips = fail

[morphias]

this is probably not going to end well... chips = fail


I agree...that is a huge increase, especially in torque. All that extra go with no upgrade in intercooler, radiator, pipework, etc.

Even the guys in the UK doing extreme tuning say ~500nM is the upper limit of that engine before blue printing.

You'll be blowing up axles, diffs, etc before you know it. Assuming you don't put a rod through the block first...

[Pickles2]

I agree...that is a huge increase, especially in torque. All that extra go with no upgrade in intercooler, radiator, pipework, etc.

Even the guys in the UK doing extreme tuning say ~500nM is the upper limit of that engine before blue printing.

You'll be blowing up axles, diffs, etc before you know it. Assuming you don't put a rod through the block first...
Agree 100%.
I'd be VERY concerned at what's going on inside that engine to produce those sorts of figures with simply a generic chip.
Pickles.

[TroyFenda]

All very interesting and somewhat helpful to get everyone's varying opinions.

However, the unfortunate thing is that I've received so many different opinions it's near on impossible to decide what's right and what's wrong. Even qualified diesel mechanics have given contradictory ideas on the matter.

[Tombie]

Diesel mech vs diesel tuner is quite different IME.

Proceed with great caution with that set up...

[TroyFenda]

For what it's worth the chip was installed by a specialist diesel tuning outfit. The same outfit do engine work and upgrades on 4WDs right the way up to large prime movers, tractors etc.

[Naks]

For what it's worth the chip was installed by a specialist diesel tuning outfit. The same outfit do engine work and upgrades on 4WDs right the way up to large prime movers, tractors etc.


Troy, the bottom line is that a chip works by intercepting the signals between ECU and engine and then overfuels the engine to produce more power.

that is a recipe for disaster in the long run, as the engine is now running much hotter. Not to mention the added strain on the drivetrain as others mentioned.

[Pickles2]

Yes, I've heard similar things,...ie, that these chips send "false" signals to the ECU, increasing the power of the engine in an "unsafe" manner.
Pickles.

[AndyG]

I note that in my RACQ Comp insurance a 3rd party chip = no insurance

[Chops]

I note that in my RACQ Comp insurance a 3rd party chip = no insurance

I wonder if that includes "remapping".

[AndyG]

I would guess, and its only a guess, that remapping could catch you out. If they really wanted to nail you. But Defenders dont really have a reputation for spinning out of control.

I imagine the rule is to catch the boy racers out.

[RoboDouche]

BAS can shut down the terrible EGR to which is a bonus. I'd get rid of the CAT and big center muffler to. I've done it to mine and it's no louder but the turbo spools up way quicker and it's getting better fuel consumption.

I've got an EGR blank kit but as a result I have an engine warning light. No big deal but I'm working on a fix at the moment.

I spoke to the guys at BAS they said they recommend a new intercooler. Not having it will stress your engine especially in our hot climate

[Pickles2]

I'm no tuning guru, but I have made a few enquiries as to what's available in Aus. A major Melbourne LR specialist told me that the Aussie heat should be a major consideration with these things.
The "Aus" is particularly important, as many of the tunes & remaps that are available, are designed for European conditions which are much cooler than ours, and a modified engine is going to develop more heat, particularly when it's working hard,....therefore a better intercooler would be a must,..IMHO.
So, I would think, that a piggyback "generic" chip, said to generate significantly more power & torque, could be a disastrous recipe in some situations, in Aus.
Pickles.