4BD1T MSA5G Range Rover Classic Outcast Adaptor

[workingonit]

I'm at the stage of making the chassis engine mounts and need some advice on setting the engine height relevant to the chassis.

This means that I have the engine, gearbox, adaptor and transfer case all bolted together - transfer case sitting in original position on its mounts and the engine end suspended by a crane.

Before taking the v8 out I put a straight rule across the bump stops and measured a gap of 70mm between the rule and the bottom of the sump. Have people set their 4BD1's to the same gap, or to gain bonnet space gone smaller ie 60mm or 50mm?

Note I have the body off the chassis at this stage so its a bit hard to judge head room at the bonnet. I reckon I could get the engine in at 70mm and probably have bonnet head room without a 2 inch body lift - but those with experience I suspect will say you need the body lift.

Has anyone modded the bonnet ie cut the interfering section out and raised it like a bonnet scoop?

And yes, I'm taking lots of photos for later presentation.

[Dougal]

Take the springs out to help check clearance. I have no bonnet mods and 1 inch longer bump stops. With stock bump stops the front diff hit the sump corner on hard impacts.

[workingonit]

Thanks Dougal.

I did wonder about extended bump stops - I assume standard bump stops are mounted on a steel extension block - or can you actually buy longer rubber?

Likewise, I did wonder if the corner of the diff pumkin would contact the corner of the outer edge of the sump.

I was thinking that putting a rule across the bump stops and measuring the sump-to-rule distance would have sufficed and just set to original v8 distance. But I guess taking the springs out would show the degree of bump compression, particularly considering the extra weight the engine imposes.

Did you go to the trouble of a 2 inch body lift? This vehicle came with a 2 inch spring lift only, not that the spring lift has much to do with the chassis/engine position relationship.

My starter motor has probably 10mm clearance from the chassis. How close is yours?

[Ancient Mariner]

Deleted was thinking Defender

AM

[workingonit]

Thanks AM.

Don't know if Defender and RRC bonnets share same chassis distance.

4BD1 is set at 70mm bump clearance as per v8.

Going by your suggestion I get 525mm.

Do you think 5mm mallet dent in bonnet would be noticed?

Quick look over first pages of Onheit - very nice work, but umm...it appears your turbo is on the drivers side while mine is on front passenger side. Is this correct?

[workingonit]

I don't know AM...I think you may have proved something anyway, about the relationship between the two vehicles.

[workingonit]

Just read a bit more of Onheit to see yours is a 4he1 and explains the turbo.

[Ancient Mariner]

Seniors moment:( Read Rangy did'nt register sorry:wheelchair:

[Dougal]

No body lift, the extended bump stops I have are orange poly. Packing then down will have a similar overall effect. You have to allow for about 50 percent compression, letting it just sit there isn't enough.

My starter is the compact 24v and my chassis is notched. Would likely clear static but touch in motion without the notch.

[Vern]

I could try post some engine bay pics of mine, it has a body lift and top mount intercooler. Engine is in standard isuzu series3 position.

[Vern]

With a straight edge running along the rocker cover, its 65mm above the radiator support panel.

[Vern]

82523sorry about the tapatalk photo

[workingonit]

Just been outside trying to cut the old v8 mounts off the chassis - I forgot to do this before I dropped in the engine/gearbox - so its a combo of 4 and 9 inch grinders working in what ever gap I can create. I originally put the gearbox/tc in first, then the engine. Trying to take the whole lot out in one go is probably getting to the engine lifters limit at full reach.

Dougal, you run a full 24v system ie alternator as well?

Vern, if you take off the engine bay side panels you could fit some more in :) My body is off chassis at the moment, but I will try to do a rough calculation to see if it accords with your estimate, allowing that I don't have a body lift (yet).

What's an Isuzu standard series 3 position mean?

[workingonit]

As an aside, I can't see this thread on the 'new posts' for the day. And it comes up as a 'sticky' under the Isuzu Landy Enthusiasts Party...I mean Section.

What's the 'sticky' imply? Seems I haven't set this thread up correctly.

[Vern]

I cut my mounts out of a series 3, and sat them back in the same position once I had bolted the transcase and msa in.
As for room, more would be nice, my washer bottle is in my bullbar next to the winch😕

[uninformed]

Sucks to lose up travel.

[Dougal]

Sucks to lose up travel.
But better than smacking the sump and losing oil.

[workingonit]

If I emulate the v8 sump clearance, then the centre point of my crank shaft sits 70mm above the adjacent chassis cross member.

I got 65mm as you suggested Vern. If I have my measurements correct, then I would guess your engine was set to the same bump stop gap as the v8 and I will need the 2 inch body lift if I do the same. If the v8 wasn't getting whacked then unlikely the Isuzu will.

If follows on that Dougal may have his set much lower into the chassis than the original v8, possibly better centre of gravity, but the need for extended bump stops. But I could be wrong.

Must take the sump off. If the shallow part is simply a collection pan then maybe with some customisation it could become simply a solid plate that drains to the deep end, saving a few centimetres for improved clearance.

[Vern]

I will measure my chassis to crank to see if I get 70mm.
Don't bother taking the sump off, no room for mods there, the crank clears the sump by about 5mm.

[Dougal]

Dougal, you run a full 24v system ie alternator as well?

Nope. Series/parallel switch for 24v starting but 12v everything else.

[workingonit]

So I'll have to find some one else who might want a free 24v alternator if it seems I don't need the one currently on the engine? Although I wonder if it can be used for welding?

The engine was missing the starter motor so I've purchased a 12 volt starter and alternator.

Got my approval in principle from the motor vehicle registry today :)

[workingonit]

Took some (poor) photos of 4BD1 chassis engine mounts on ex-army vehicle. Will make some mounts and post measurements etc once made up.

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Some relevant links to same:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/56449-begins-6.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/112158-another-county-isuzu-conversion-2.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/49253-fabricating-engine-mounts.html


Other peoples photos

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/3156d1183953230-isuzu-engine-mounts-isuzu_mount.jpeg

[workingonit]

Saw this method elsewhere so gave it a try. Pay out more chain than I did to get centre of gravity lower - otherwise the body lolls around in slow motion. Carried out operation by my self. Good resting point is the door frame.

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[workingonit]

For some, the most interesting part of the thread. You get shaft, housing, chassis mount, shifter, oil seal and bolts. Note: comparison of adaptor machining and original gearbox cover; and slot inside main cavity where you insert a socket to lock up the drive flange when tightening flange bolt.

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[workingonit]

Length of housing. Difficulty of getting original flange bolt off. Exploded view of old to be removed. Exploded view of new and some old to go back on. Casing is on first.

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[workingonit]

Followed by original flange and flange bolt. Then new drive shaft.

But before installing both drives they should test fitted because the new drive recess and the old drive raised internal lip are an interference fit.

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[workingonit]

The interference fit can be driven together with 'gentle' taps from a hammer, around the flange - don't strike the SAE10 splines!!!! Your transfer case will need a long spline input shaft to match - and make sure it has the dog teeth on the nub if you intend to fit a hydraulic pump. The original drive flange bolts cannot be re-used - and note what appears to be shearing pressure. Nuts need to be ground on one side and tack welded to back of old drive flange before final installation. New bolts come in from the front.

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[workingonit]

Previous owner has obviously hit something and creased the frame. Despite this the chassis diagonals and spot heights seem ok. Forgot to take photos, but I added 2.5mm x 80mm x 150mm plate with right angle bend as well, inside both sides - drilled a dozen quarter inch spot weld holes for each plate. Note, in the cut away, there is already some factory fitted bracing within the channel - the little horns run some way in to re-enforce the corners - and you may also just see the edge of a z shaped plate that stops the opposing walls bowing in.

My permit includes the addition of white tiger chassis strengthening plates - to stop bulge reoccurring, that can be felt elsewhere along the chassis (the prang crease being a different issue to the bulge), the bulge is a condition noted for this vehicle when treated rough (they reduced the chassis depth for the Range Rover by 50mm when compared to the Defender). Bulge fixed, just required tapping back with a mallet. See chassis strengthening link to Les Richmond Auto.

Chassis Strengthening (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d625.html)

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[workingonit]

Late night work and next morning install - into factory chassis mounts and factory position. Clearances left, right and behind steering box. Note position of v8 mounts, about 40-50mm difference in position.

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[workingonit]

...behind steering box.

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[pibby]

when i click on the photos a new tab opens with the photo the same size as in the original post ie pretty darn small so can't see real well.

assuming it's the resolution of the photos you're uploading. any chance uploading higher res photos?

not interested in doing this mod but it's very interesting to see and i take my hat (beanie) off to those who put the effort in.

cheers.

:)

[Vern]

My engine mount sits less than 5 mm from the steering box.

As for opening the pics, right click and 'open in new window' , should come up full screen.

[Dougal]

For some, the most interesting part of the thread. You get shaft, housing, chassis mount, shifter, oil seal and bolts. Note: comparison of adaptor machining and original gearbox cover; and slot inside main cavity where you insert a socket to lock up the drive flange when tightening flange bolt.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/82822-4bd1t-msa5g-range-rover-classic-outcast-adaptor-01-shaft-z.jpg

Why would you intentionally make a part like that out of balance?

If it's not too late, I'd take that shaft back out, throw it back to them so they can notch the opposite side to balance it.

[Ancient Mariner]

Why would you intentionally make a part like that out of balance?

If it's not too late, I'd take that shaft back out, throw it back to them so they can notch the opposite side to balance it.
I think the Isuzu will have enough vibration in it to keep you happy without adding more:D

[workingonit]

Pibby, as Vern says. Just clicking on the pic gives small image. Now you'll have to go back and see them all again :)

Dougal, you don't just 'send stuff back' from Darwin - the cost would be equal to NZGDP :) But seriously, yes I did wonder and calculated roughly 720 rpm at 100kmh hmmm...would it vibrate. Got lathe and mill so I may end up just notching it myself as per your suggestion. The notch is for locking while doing up bolts if not clear to other readers. And no, the shaft is not yet in place - what I'm presenting is basically a mock up so I can figure the engine mounts. Everything is going to come out once the mounts are done, so I can respray the chassis, fix things on the engine etc.

Next step the chassis mounts - just pondering if I can bend class 350 6mm to maintain plate strength rather than hack out lots of little pieces and weld.

Ancient, I don't mind the traditional diesel clatter...provided it smooths out a bit on acceleration.

[Dougal]

Pibby, as Vern says. Just clicking on the pic gives small image. Now you'll have to go back and see them all again :)

Dougal, you don't just 'send stuff back' from Darwin - the cost would be equal to NZGDP :) But seriously, yes I did wonder and calculated roughly 720 rpm at 100kmh hmmm...would it vibrate. Got lathe and mill so I may end up just notching it myself as per your suggestion. The notch is for locking while doing up bolts if not clear to other readers. And no, the shaft is not yet in place - what I'm presenting is basically a mock up so I can figure the engine mounts. Everything is going to come out once the mounts are done, so I can respray the chassis, fix things on the engine etc.

Next step the chassis mounts - just pondering if I can bend class 350 6mm to maintain plate strength rather than hack out lots of little pieces and weld.

Ancient, I don't mind the traditional diesel clatter...provided it smooths out a bit on acceleration.

At 100km/h my engine is doing 2000rpm and the gearbox output shaft is doing about 2,500rpm.

I'd balance it.

I'm not convinced the notch even needs to be there. You've got several existing options to stop the shaft rotating while doing/undoing bolts. None of which throw balance out.

[Ancient Mariner]

At 100 kph in 5th with my 3.0 diffs the shaft is doing 1431 rpm. you could chuck the small end in the lathe spin it and convince yourself Why spoil a nice job for half a hole As Dougal said mill the opposite hole

AM

[workingonit]

Thanks for the calculations...umm I forgot to multiply by diff ratio.

Will take your advice.

[workingonit]

Took the swan neck steering rod off the drop arm to find that a previous owner had welded the ball join onto the swan neck! Considering swapping the drop arm for a Disco 'less hassle changing the ball' type.

[workingonit]

Clearances while engine suspended. Crankshaft relative to front cross member. Finding angle between chassis and rubber mount 47.5 degrees both sides.

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[workingonit]

Got 50 degrees one side and 45 other - resettle engine by lifting passenger side transfer case mount to get 47.5 on both sides.

Scribe line. Feather the line with grinder (letting it 'walk' away from you then only requires guiding it). Let it 'walk' away from you a few more times to deepen the score line. Then resort to deepening in the normal fashion. Once deep enough then go for the final plung cut. Trying to cut right through at the beginning just leads to constant attempts to wonder off course.

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[workingonit]

Do the three sides first then figure out the internal bracing. My MIG was giving motor wire feed issues ie not working - resorted to 30 year old push pull stick.

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Two spot welds to hold each finished mount to chassis. Then tentatively let mounts hold full engine weight (hear the shocks go glugg glugg). Score the mounts for future bolt hole drilling.

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[workingonit]

More shots under full engine weight. And no, I'm not going to prove clearance with my finger on just two spot welds.

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[workingonit]

Close up of passenger mount.

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Gap where chassis curves - not as bad as it looks - will fill it with weld. Did try bending this plate (class 350) with 12 ton home press, but feared I would break the form.

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Quick paper sketch up of angles and lengths. Blow it up to 100% checking 100mm scale for proof then transfer to cardboard and test before committing steel. My engine is from a truck and not a LRover original transplanted from another LROver. Note my dotted extension to one of the passenger pieces. I tried emulating the original army mounts. The drivers mount will need notching to clear steering box, not shown at this stage. Bolt holes aren't shown. My guess is you can use mild 6 mm plate steel - here it is class 350 bought for another project, but which I decided to hack into for the mounts.

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[workingonit]

Frustrating day shopping in Darwin, trying to find:
- a clutch slave cylinder (missing from my engine/gearbox); and
- a replacement clutch release bearing (60mm x 90 mm x 22.6mm) branded NSK 78TKC5401 Japan.

I require a slave cylinder with holes 180 opposite each other or "two ears". The unit sits in and is bolted to a "u" shaped frame or set of lugs that come off the casing.

The local Isuzu dealer showed me pictures of the slave cylinder in the paper based catalogue book for the 4bd1/4be1, but the mounts were entirely different to what I need - the holes in his example being set in a right angle bracket caste into the housing. Yet on the same page, for the 4bc2, there seems to be the one I need or looks very much like what I imagine, since its missing on my set up.

I find on the net several examples listed as being for the 4bd1 but they look like the one in the dealers book listed for the 4bc2...ugghh!

The same Isuzu dealer said he could find no listing for the release bearing. They had a whole clutch kit, but seeing the diagrams things were not quite what I expected - for example the release arm I have is cast steel, while the kit had a pressed sheet steel arm (similar in concept to the arm that develops a hole in other LRover applications).

CBC had no release bearing available in Oz but gave me some numbers. The generic item number to quote places like Repco is GSB435 - could not find anything under Repco on the net for Oz. Other numbers they gave me Isuzu 1.09820.078.0; Nissan 30502-89TAO. I can find references on the net for these but no photos that are clear and usually from Chinese sites with poor translations or USA that wont ship to Oz.

Have turned up two good'uns though - bearing place in Bendigo, and the NZ Repco clearance site, 5 or 6 left, under drivetrain, CI, GSB435 $38.99 - go get 'em Dougal if they suit :)

Repco NZ (http://www.clearancecentre.repco.co.nz/index.cfm?objectid=71D26F2B-D5C6-2D4C-89916F9130C5EE62&carmake=ISUZU&brand=&category=&description=&partNo=&vehicleNo=A1027845&fromUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fclearancecentre%2Eromana%2Ete lligence%2Enet%2Eau%2Findex%2Ecfm%3Fobjectid%3D71D 26F2B-D5C6-2D4C-89916F9130C5EE62%26carmake%3DISUZU%26carmodel%3DNY %257C%257C%257Cmodel%26carseries%3DNKR200%26catego ry%3D%26brand%3D%26partNo%3D%26description%3D).

[THE 109]

I think someone here used a land rover slave cylinder on their conversion, maybe from a LT95. Worth a look and easier to find if it works.

Eric

[Ancient Mariner]

Search on here MSA slave cylinder plenty of info;)

[Vern]

Yeah mine runs a standard landrover slave.

[Dougal]

Yeah mine runs a standard landrover slave.

I'm pretty sure mine does too. The bolt holes aren't quite a perfect match for the Isuzu mounting tabs, but they do fit.

I do have an actual MSA slave cylinder here somewhere. It came still attached to my second gearbox.

[workingonit]

Yep, have searched aulro, read as many threads as I could find. Debate on 7/8 vs 1" re hard pedal issues. Seems the recommendation is the slave from the 110 Isuzu, and not the Defender. Then there is the need to use the old truck push rod, which I don't have, and no real idea as to what it looks like. Have seen examples on the net that seem to have a hemisphere and short locating stub - makes sense when I look at my clutch release arm - but not facility on the stub for a lock nut once installed.

Today will talk to a couple of LRover parts suppliers that I know supply some parts for the Isuzu powered vehicles.

Since I have the old v8 has anyone used its slave?

[Vern]

8455384554well heres a couple of pics of mine. Landy slave, isuzu pushrod thingy.

[workingonit]

Think I've got it sorted now.

Outcast suggested I talk to National Truck Spares. Did so, and have ordered a new Isuzu slave cylinder, spring, and release bearing. Will post some photos/info once parts arrive next week.

On the subject of Outcast, said they have not had any other interest in their adaptor kits, and appreciate price is an issue for such small runs, so unless there is a sudden spike of interest they will not be making any more casings, very time consuming to make. The shafts will still be available, being relatively straight forward. They also had initial concerns about only notching one side, so put it in a lathe at high speed and all seemed OK - if I do a balancing notch I will need to use carbide grinder or such, due to the hardness.

[workingonit]

Vern, thanks for the photos. Don't mean to create any alarm (don't want you breaking any other windows :)), but, the hemispheric lump on the shaft - has it punched through the lever?

[Dougal]

Vern, thanks for the photos. Don't mean to create any alarm (don't want you breaking any other windows :)), but, the hemispheric lump on the shaft - has it punched through the lever?

I haven't had any issues with the spherical part of the push rod (think mine is bigger than Vern's) punching through the lever. But I did have problems with the lever wearing out on the pivot ball further inside the case.
I had to reweld and reinforce my original clutch fork for this reason and will check my current one next time it's out.

The clutch pedal feel was much better with a reinforced fork. Even not worn out and cracked these forks must flex a fair bit.

[workingonit]

There's a Subaru WRX intercooler nearby on gumtree for $50 (no piping) and sure I could get the price down - also has the rear sway bar of a Disco that might be adaptable to the front of the RRC as a quick release.

Are these worth considering as an intercooler for the 4bd1t? Looks a bit bigger than the cooler for the TDi300, maybe. The Subaru engines listed are 2.2 - 2.5 litres, but I assume much higher revving with significant air supply requirements that might meet the lower revving Isuzu. Vern had something like this in one of his pics.

Full Aluminum Turbo Intercooler Bolt on Piping 95 01 Subaru Impreza GC8 GF EJ | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-ALUMINUM-TURBO-INTERCOOLER-BOLT-ON-PIPING-95-01-SUBARU-IMPREZA-GC8-GF-EJ-/400782477800)

[Vern]

Mine is an rx7 inter cooler, about 75mm thick, core would be 300x300 at a guess, could be bigger.

[workingonit]

Thanks Damien, maybe I should measure it up and bargain it down :)

[Dougal]

There's a Subaru WRX intercooler nearby on gumtree for $50 (no piping) and sure I could get the price down - also has the rear sway bar of a Disco that might be adaptable to the front of the RRC as a quick release.

Are these worth considering as an intercooler for the 4bd1t? Looks a bit bigger than the cooler for the TDi300, maybe. The Subaru engines listed are 2.2 - 2.5 litres, but I assume much higher revving with significant air supply requirements that might meet the lower revving Isuzu. Vern had something like this in one of his pics.

Full Aluminum Turbo Intercooler Bolt on Piping 95 01 Subaru Impreza GC8 GF EJ | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-ALUMINUM-TURBO-INTERCOOLER-BOLT-ON-PIPING-95-01-SUBARU-IMPREZA-GC8-GF-EJ-/400782477800)

Did you see this post: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/148712-85-classic-12.html#post2074226

The intercoolers shown there are catalogue items I found that looked like they might fit:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/71785d1390726268-85-classic-rrc-intercoolers.jpg

The front one (CXracing IC0047) is a 12x18x3.5" core and I think the biggest you can fit in the front of a classic without major body surgery: cxracing.com: Turbo Intercooler Size: 24"x12"x3.5", 3.5" Core, 2.5" Inlet & Outlet, Front Mount or V-Mount (http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=IC0047)

The rearward facing outlets I was planning to run between the bottom of the radiator and above the front cross-member. The same core size is available everywhere with side entry like the link you've provided. But you have to cut a fair bit of metal from the body to get the pipes to and from it.

I then decided my 29 year old radiator is pretty much done and to go for replacement of the stock radiator and AC condensor with a redesigned condensor/intercooler/radiator setup. I'm about halfway through designing it now.

Using these parts: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/71786d1390726710-85-classic-cosworth-ic-rad.jpg
Intercooler hanging on the front bumper for scale:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/72937d1392512130-85-classic-rs500-intercooler.jpg

Total thickness gain towards the front of the engine is about 25mm. But this is a major task

[workingonit]

Just wondered if I should grab the wrx for sale or is a waste of time.

I was contemplating mounting the intercooler somewhere else in the engine bay with an electric fan - I think that is how Damien has his if I remember his photo correctly - maybe even in the hood with a cut out and raised cover. I think though that Damien is a master of packaging more into a given space than the laws of physics would dictate is possible. A broken rear window only gives him opportunity for expansion ie rear balcony. Fixed yet?

Damien mentioned his was 300x300x75 so I ducked out in the dark to measure the 300 Tdi, which seems slightly smaller at approx 400x200x70'ish. Given the 4bd1t is not quite double the volume of the Tdi does that mean Damiens could be under rated? Or is it a case that most intercoolers are run well below their full capacity?

Anyone just used a 300 tdi radiator and intercooler with the 4bd1t?

How do you match air demand with supply? As a rough rule of thumb would you first determine air consumption volume at near engine peak revs (maybe swept volume by rpm?) and compare intercooler manufacturers claim of throughput at a range of psi ie 10. 15, 20, 25 etc).

I remember your thread, quickly read as I was not anywhere near that stage yet. Seem like some significant grill remodeling would be required. As you indicate, there is also the question of a shroud. Have you gone much past the above photo?

If I were really really serious about this project, after looking at an army perentie yesterday, I'd widen the RRC chassis by 300mm, as it seemed based on gap between starter and chassis.

[Dougal]

Just wondered if I should grab the wrx for sale or is a waste of time.

I think it's too big. Go cut a cardboard template and see how it fits behind the grill.


Damien mentioned his was 300x300x75 so I ducked out in the dark to measure the 300 Tdi, which seems slightly smaller at approx 400x200x70'ish. Given the 4bd1t is not quite double the volume of the Tdi does that mean Damiens could be under rated? Or is it a case that most intercoolers are run well below their full capacity?

Anyone just used a 300 tdi radiator and intercooler with the 4bd1t?

I wouldn't put a 300tdi radiator and IC in front of a 4BD1T. But JustinC used a TD5 intercooler and radiator in his 110. They should fit well enough in a RRC.


How do you match air demand with supply? As a rough rule of thumb would you first determine air consumption volume at near engine peak revs (maybe swept volume by rpm?) and compare intercooler manufacturers claim of throughput at a range of psi ie 10. 15, 20, 25 etc).

Intercooler makers claims are complete fiction. Don't even bother with them. There are two simple rules:
1. Any intercooler which can flow as much as your piping can is better than nothing.
2. Bigger is better.


I remember your thread, quickly read as I was not anywhere near that stage yet. Seem like some significant grill remodeling would be required. As you indicate, there is also the question of a shroud. Have you gone much past the above photo?

No remodelling or significant cutting. I'm designing this to be a bolt-in behind the front panels. Yes I've done a lot of work since getting the parts here. Design is about 50% done.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=84944&stc=1&d=1412306129

[Vern]

Just wondered if I should grab the wrx for sale or is a waste of time.

I was contemplating mounting the intercooler somewhere else in the engine bay with an electric fan - I think that is how Damien has his if I remember his photo correctly - maybe even in the hood with a cut out and raised cover. I think though that Damien is a master of packaging more into a given space than the laws of physics would dictate is possible. A broken rear window only gives him opportunity for expansion ie rear balcony. Fixed yet?




That is the only room I have for my intercooler, front mount won't fit due to A/C, so I fitted the biggest topmount I could in the space I have. I'm that limited for room in there, I had to mount my washer bottle in the bulbar:).
As for the window, I am very lucky I had bought a spare lse rangie, other wise I would still have a smashed window, I think all I could do would try find a secondhand one in the UK. Oh and yes its now fixed.:D

[workingonit]

Thanks Dougal. Got to shake a leg (pack Disco) as I'm hopefully going on a 4x4 jaunt tomorrow. Was hoping for three vehicles, did get two LRover and a Toyota...good. Then the Toyo turned out was not available. Now it looks like the third member might be a world war II willys jeep :o but even this is not guaranteed - might be just two vehicles.

[workingonit]

Some views of the clutch fork, release bearing, and slave

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[workingonit]

Some more of the slave, roughly how it will orientate when fully installed with clutch fork. Old RRC v8 slave for comparison - conveniently it's bolts fit the Isuzu threaded holes. Note the hole on the Isuzu fork for the slave cylinder push rod is too big for the RRC original.

85260

85261

85262

85263

85264

[Vern]

Is that a cast clutch fork? Mines a pressed steel one, wonder which is better?

[workingonit]

Aye, you're quick off the mark :)

Cast steel is my guess. Don't think I'd like cast iron that thin, but it could be.

Yes, yours appears to be pressed steel, hence my query as to whether your push rod was punching through - an issue on other Rover clutches I believe - a welded reenforcing plate fixes it, if you happen to be home when it happens...but maybe welding pressed steel is easier than welding cast iron.

I meant to say, when ordering the bearing, the provider also needed the diameter of the centre sleeve inside the bell housing on which the fork slides - the internal diameter of the casting of the fork was also acceptable.

[workingonit]

I also like the idea the clutch slave is outside where you can see if it leaks. Compare this to the RRC where half the slave is inside the bell housing so you cannot readily check for leaks, and would seem you have to separate the bell housing to disconnect the slave from the fork when replacing it.

[steveG]

I also like the idea the clutch slave is outside where you can see if it leaks. Compare this to the RRC where half the slave is inside the bell housing so you cannot readily check for leaks, and would seem you have to separate the bell housing to disconnect the slave from the fork when replacing it.

The thing I don't like so much about the arrangement is not being able to seal the bellhousing from water/mud etc. I know there's the boot on the fork but I don't think its going to seal completely if you're in a deep water crossing or get sat in a bog hole for a few minutes.

When I finally fit mine, I'm planning to look into whether its practical to fabricate a cover that could seal it all up.

Steve

[Disco Muppet]

Forgive me for coming late to the party, also if I've missed some prior info...
Is the clutch slave external on all Isuzu boxes?

[Vern]

Yep

[Vern]

The thing I don't like so much about the arrangement is not being able to seal the bellhousing from water/mud etc. I know there's the boot on the fork but I don't think its going to seal completely if you're in a deep water crossing or get sat in a bog hole for a few minutes.

When I finally fit mine, I'm planning to look into whether its practical to fabricate a cover that could seal it all up.

Steve

I've noticed this as well Steve, I need to Fab up a plate to cover the gaping hole just below where the crank. This will be easy once I drop the box, as I think I have a leaky rear main:mad:

[Disco Muppet]

Cheers :)

[workingonit]

Another point of clarification for our many readers out there...

Interesting to see, when I took the v8 out and separated it from the gearbox, was the plastic engagement piece sitting behind the thrust bearing. The last time I saw this was on my old series 3(?).

The fork attaches to the plastic engagement component, which in turn drives the thrust bearing forward and at the same time providing a swivel join. This arrangement allows the bearing to maintain a parallel(?) attitude to the diaphragm.

The Isuzu on the other hand has no plastic bits. The swivel is provided by a retaining spring around a cast iron mount which is a bed for the bearing.

Do you know Vern if you have the LRover or the Isuzu mechanism?

[Vern]

Mines all isuzu:)

[workingonit]

My lift pump is a little different to others I've seen on aulro. Filter is located to the side of, rather than underneath, the lift pump. Same 17mm bolt. Clean as a whistle.

85468

85469

85470

[workingonit]

Before and after shots of sand blasting. The 'after' looks like it has been painted with undercoat, but has not - just the matte finish of the blasting

85471

85472

The unit and hand piece. One of the things to watch is opening the tanks bottom valve to let grit into the line. Have it too open and the grit just forms sand dunes of 'Big Red' proportions. Open it slowly until the grit just starts to come through. Found it quite efficient, getting into every nook.

85473

85474

Difference between scotch bright sanding disk (shiny) and sand blasting (matte). I used the sand blasting to get to the difficult inside. Used the scotch bright for the easy outside and a quick sand blast just for extra keying.

85475

[workingonit]

Booth a must. Garnet grit here is about one dollar a kilo - sales guy reckons you can reuse it about 6 or 7 times. Wasted about 13 kg learning the set up with no booth. Protector brand mask after some years of storage in the heat. Second choice full face. Have a couple of self contained powered breathers for crop spraying and woodwork so may press them into use when next 'free range' spraying - other wise a booth!! Managed not to hit myself directly - a glancing stream was enough. Instructions say the hand piece pipe, quarter inch thick, will eventually erode away with the ceramic tip.
85476

85477

85478

85479

[workingonit]

First time trying weld through primer. Supposedly copper based. The spray can gives user no idea of principles involved or how the coating may react to the heat zone. Typical web threads are confusing. Some say it buggers the weld quality. Some say coat the heat zone entirely, while others say no. Some say in the hottest part of the zone the primer burns off, but remains in the less hot part where other primers would have also burnt - then others say it melts and flows into the weld area (bad luck if your overhead welding cause it will run away).

So I've opted to keep clean the area where the weld will be committed, and bring the primer just adjacent. Main concern is not the preservation of the mounts (6mm), but the thinner chassis wall. Will soak the cavity with fish oil once fully welded as in theory the engine and ancillaries are not going to leak rust preventing engine oil, unlike everything else on a Tdi300 :)

You'll see I left my preliminary spot welds in place, broken between the chassis and the mount - the break will allow re-positioning of the mounts for welding with the engine out if so desired.

85480

85481

85482

85483

[isuzurover]

...

85480




Sorry but those welds are horrible. I would throw that away and start again. Turn up the amps to get better penetration and try holding the torch 2-handed to get a more even pattern.

If you need to go through engineering an inspector wouldn't pass those.

[workingonit]

To some extent I'd agree with you. My MIG started to 'not start' so had to resort to 30 year old 140 amp push pull stick which struggles at max amps to some extent. The internal brace plating is v'eed, and not just butted, and welded both sides. The little vertical is just some lumps I dropped on - the opposing top weld (not shown) is full penetration and ground back to ensure no porosity. And the little ball bearings are from first attempted runs with the faulty MIG using core flux. Gave up and ran the stick over. Have since taken the MIG apart from hand piece to circuit boards - no obvious sign of the problem - fiddled with every connector and now wants to work.

[85 county]

To some extent I'd agree with you. My MIG started to 'not start' so had to resort to 30 year old 140 amp push pull stick which struggles at max amps to some extent. The internal brace plating is v'eed, and not just butted, and welded both sides. The little vertical is just some lumps I dropped on - the opposing top weld (not shown) is full penetration and ground back to ensure no porosity. And the little ball bearings are from first attempted runs with the faulty MIG using core flux. Gave up and ran the stick over. Have since taken the MIG apart from hand piece to circuit boards - no obvious sign of the problem - fiddled with every connector and now wants to work.
probably a better welder, try 2.5mm rods

[Gavo]

make sure your liner and hand piece are all clean mine was jammed up with crap from the gas-less wire all good now. Gas-less machine can get good penetration if you want.

[workingonit]

85 county, I was using 2.5mm rods - would have liked to try smaller but used them up years ago.

gavo, thanks for the advice, but I don't think it was a liner/crud issue as the machine has not seen a lot of work. I took most of the machine apart and could not find an obvious fault. I believe the main issue lies in either the electronic control system or poor connections.

Something I didn't think of until recently was possible voltage drop on a 15 meter 15 amp extension cord?

[isuzurover]

What does a weld look like if you crank the welder all the way up and lay down a bead on some 10 mm flat plate?

[workingonit]

89270

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/90033-isuzu-msa-gearbox-lt230-50.html

[workingonit]

85county, pm sent.

Before you invest time in a similar design to Outcast's shaft (or Sheldon's) you should check out Ancient Mariners alternative - see link in previous post.

If I understand AM and others correctly, it would appear to cope better with misalignments - and if it did break it would be much easier to remove and replace.

If the guys go ahead and machine some I will be raising my hand for one.

[Vern]

I definitely will be going ahead, i have no choice as i am now shaftless😕

[workingonit]

Damien, you've got your own little bit of Dakar going on :( At least the days are long!

From memory the Outcast casing is 173 mm and Sheldon's is 175 mm.

The Outcast shaft is 184 mm long. Not sure how long the one made by Sheldon. My guess is only a few mm between them.

If you get something made following AM's design to fit a Sheldon case then it should fit the Outcast case, in which case I'd be interested. Just keep in mind my query as to whether you are using the long or short spline input gear. I get the impression from Sheldon's photos it was made for the short, but I could be wrong. I intend using the long spline input gear. I bought mine from MRAuto a couple of years ago for $250 if memory serves me correctly, so not overly expensive.

85 county was interested in the measurements I posted, but 85county says he could not see them. I assume he's clicked on the image to enlarge it. But given AM's posting of a floating shaft 85 county should first consider it and what you may do before doing anything else.

[Vern]

Will get it out in the morning, i can measure it up.
I was unaware of spline length in the input gear. My shaft has wear marks on it about 10mm in from the end then about another 45mm, guessing the are from the start and end of the splines on the gear.
Will know more tomorrow .

[steveG]

Will get it out in the morning, i can measure it up.
I was unaware of spline length in the intermediate gear. My shaft has wear marks on it about 10mm in from the end then about another 45mm, guessing the are from the start and end of the splines on the gear.
Will know more tomorrow .

IIRC, all the 1.003 input gears are short spline. There's no long spline option.

Steve

[workingonit]

Sorry Vern, I know your tired, but input gear, not intermediate :) or is it my 'bad' somewhere in the posts?

SteveG, I bought my input gear for the 1.2 box in my Disco Tdi300 auto. I did wonder if it was a universal fit for other ratios. I've not played with gearbox ratios before. So to change ratios how many of the gears are involved ie just the input, input/intermediate, or more? I guess I should check Ashcrofts site.

My experience to date, dealing with early and late Disco 1 models, is the long spline came out in later Tdi300 Discos, cross drilled for lubrication, to help reduce failures. What LRover didn't do in later gears was machine the nub to make dog teeth to accommodate hydraulic pumps or other devices. The older short version did have dog teeth. My aftermarket long spline does have the machined dog teeth.

I assume ratios other than 1.2 did also suffer the lack of lube issue on the input gear/shaft. But LRover did not do the long spline crossed drilled replacement like they did in the Disco?

[Vern]

Yes tired and p'd off. I meant input gear.
I'd measure my adapter shaft but have no measuring device. It does however come upto the shoulder on a bottle of jameson

[workingonit]

...it's driven you to drink then?

I assume you are still able access a Sheldon shaft, on loan.

What has happened to you has me worried about the Outcast shaft - they said they got to examine Sheldon's shafts and in their view made some improvements.

I'm pondering some issues and will have some questions for bee utey after his interesting last post on the other thread, basically indicating even Ancient Mariners set up may present problems.

I'm a long way off testing the Outcast unit. My certified welder has just emerged from his holiday south, so I'm still at the stage of attaching engine mounts and bracing plates. In the mean while I've been sand blasting suspension parts and painting them.

Again, a pity whats happened. Was looking forward to an upbeat report when you got back.

[Vern]

Yeah have a loaner shaft, picked it up today.
All I can say is I'm amazed how easily this snapped, i'd be very concerned if i was doing any slightly remote travel.
CWhen i get home, the whole engine/trans combo is coming out, i need to fix this week link properly

[loanrangie]

So your holiday is stuffed too :thumbdown:

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

[isuzurover]

Yeah have a loaner shaft, picked it up today.
All I can say is I'm amazed how easily this snapped, i'd be very concerned if i was doing any slightly remote travel.
CWhen i get home, the whole engine/trans combo is coming out, i need to fix this week link properly

The design of the shaft looks OK. Sheldon is a Mech. Eng. (AFAIK) after all. He didn't make the shaft out of balance at least... (like someone else we know) :D

The radius at the transition could have been greater, but I suspect misalignment, heat treating, or the material.

[Vern]

The design of the shaft looks OK. Sheldon is a Mech. Eng. AFAIK after all. He didn't make the shaft out of balance at least... :D

The radius at the transition could have been greater, but I suspect misalignment, heat treating, or the material.
Thats true, but none of these are my fault or problem, but now it has become my problem. Very dissapointed.
Do you know how hard it is to try remove an lt230 with limited tools, lying in the sand, by yourself? It really gets you down.
Now if i could have just removed the input gear and swapped out the snapped axle, i'd be in a better mood right now.
Trust me, i am very grateful for all the hard work sheldon has done, and am happy with the kit, i just want him to know what has happened so he can see if there is a way that this won't happen again, but i just can't seem to get onto him at the moment.
Plus i am on holiday with my family, thats the worst bit.

But in the long run it will be new and improved😊

[workingonit]

Ok Isuzuurover, lets see how critical the chunk out of the Outcast adapter really is...Damien, you wanna free Outcast shaft...:p

Gotta stop taking the micky ;)

Anyway, off to annoy the people on the 'other thread' (you guys basically :))

[isuzurover]

Thats true, but none of these are my fault or problem, but now it has become my problem. Very dissapointed.
Do you know how hard it is to try remove an lt230 with limited tools, lying in the sand, by yourself? It really gets you down.
Now if i could have just removed the input gear and swapped out the snapped axle, i'd be in a better mood right now.
Trust me, i am very grateful for all the hard work sheldon has done, and am happy with the kit, i just want him to know what has happened so he can see if there is a way that this won't happen again, but i just can't seem to get onto him at the moment.
Plus i am on holiday with my family, thats the worst bit.

But in the long run it will be new and improved��

Not having a go at you Damien. Wouldn't want to be in your situation. I hate working on vehicles "in the field" (done plenty of it in my time, but not as serious as removing t-cases...).

People seem to be crawling out of the woodwork claiming the design was flawed all along - it is in their direction that my comments are aimed.

[Vern]

All good Ben, i know your not, i totally agree with you.

[justinc]

Not having a go at you Damien. Wouldn't want to be in your situation. I hate working on vehicles "in the field" (done plenty of it in my time, but not as serious as removing t-cases...).

People seem to be crawling out of the woodwork claiming the design was flawed all along - it is in their direction that my comments are aimed.

Yes well I am guilty as charged I guess Ben :angel:, but I believe that from those pics the transition from seal surface to shaft is too 'quick' for my liking. However I am sure he would've done the calcs to support such design, but just looking at it I would've liked to see a more gentle diameter change. Having seen what happens to GM cranks when the radius on the shoulder of bearing journals is machined too small, I was coming from that angle...

I am also of the opinion that working on your own vehicle during a family holiday extremely sucks.. :(

JC

[Dervish]

...

The radius at the transition could have been greater, but I suspect misalignment, heat treating, or the material.

I'm not a Mech. Eng., but I'm close enough to know a little about shaft design. The transition in radii where the shaft broke is just too abrupt; as others have said.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/303.jpg
Kt - stress concentration factor.

I did run the numbers, but as it was a rough calculation based on eyeballing the picture above I won't post them. If you're getting a new shaft made, consider putting a larger radius in that transition. It may well have been misalignment, heat treating or the material; but that shaft design would've exacerbated the problem.

[workingonit]

What are the views regarding the transitions on the Outcast shaft, putting aside the notch issue?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/204292-4bd1t-msa5g-range-rover-classic-outcast-adaptor-4.html

[isuzurover]

What are the views regarding the transitions on the Outcast shaft, putting aside the notch issue?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/204292-4bd1t-msa5g-range-rover-classic-outcast-adaptor-4.html

Sheldon has followed good engineering practice by reducing shaft diameter to the root diameter of the splined section. This has however caused a larger transition on the other side.

The outcast shaft has not. If it ever fails it will be at the base of the splined section.

You would need to run an FEA analysis to work out which is better.

Given how easily Damien's shaft failed, i am sure the problem is heat treating rather than design. Do I remember correctly that Sheldon originally wasn't going to heat treat until Bush65 convinced him otherwise?

[Dervish]

Sheldon has followed good engineering practice by reducing shaft diameter to the root diameter of the splined section. This has however caused a larger transition on the other side.

The outcast shaft has not. If it ever fails it will be at the base of the splined section.

You would need to run an FEA analysis to work out which is better.

Given how easily Damien's shaft failed, i am sure the problem is heat treating rather than design. Do I remember correctly that Sheldon originally wasn't going to heat treat until Bush65 convinced him otherwise?

Looks like they've just copied the r380 mainshaft splines; spline root tapers to spline crest diameter gradually. r380s don't seem to break there, so I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.

There appears to be a slight step at the base of the splined section to the tapered section (is there?), but the difference between radii is tiny if there is one; so again I personally wouldn't be too concerned. From there back to the flange it looks very strong.

All of this is ignoring the metallurgy though, so only at most half the story.

[workingonit]

Thanks for the observations.

It is interesting that good design principle would require reducing the shaft to spline root diameter, unless intended to fail at this point to protect other parts of the machine. I would have thought you would take the spline the whole length for the small added strength, taking into account radius requirements.

The Outcast unit is made for the long spline input gear, but should suit the old short spline as well. Don't know what spline length Sheldons was for.

Made some inquiries to find that no one cuts gears or heat treats in Darwin.

So made an inquiry with a small gear cutting company is Brisbane. I don't know them from a bar of soap. Part of their business involves making gears etc for vintage vehicles, which is what attracted me. The owner rang me back, South African, and easy to talk to. Ancient Mariners design is well within their capabilities. They can heat treat and arrange cryo treatment. They normally prefer customers to specify alloy type, hardnesses required etc, but this can be resolved other ways. I pressed and pressed the poor guy for a ball park, but all he could say is a one off would be under a thousand. Being primarily a CNC workshop he said the price would drop dramatically for a number of units. A one off would more likely be cut conventionally rather than CNC. The other issue is warranting. There have been a couple of instances of guys ordering a part, and bringing it back broken because they didn't tell him they were putting it behind 300-400hp engines. In our situation we are installing using casings and alignment that he has no control over.

If and when a supplier is found I would buy a flange and several shafts. Would AM have any intellectual property right issues - Dougal once complained about this.

As for poor Damien. Option one I guess is to sell it as is (no locomotion); part it out; buy an Outcast shaft and sell the vehicle running or trial it himself and maybe boost his confidence to keep it; persist but go straight to an AM design.

Myself, I'll persist with the Outcast unit and trial it locally for a few thousand kms heavily loaded, but have the standby AM unit in the tool box. Waste of money? Already have a second 4bd1 stage 1 to tinker with - just need another MSA gearbox to saunter by.

[isuzurover]

...I would have thought you would take the spline the whole length for the small added strength, ...

What makes you think this would be stronger?

[Ancient Mariner]

I am flattered that any one would consider using the shaft just be a where that no calcs were done as it would require more grey cells than I pocess however 50 years of building adaptors for myself and customers plus repairs and mods to all sorts of machinery you get a feel for what works and what don't:D The actual shaft could be improved by making the seal surface a press fit sleeve
If you have your outcast apart I would make a plug as mentioned in my other post and check the TC fits on the dowels for peace of mind:D

AM

[workingonit]

AM.

What? You're now trying to wiggle out of any responsibility because you didn't do any calcs!:o

Just had a look at the Outcast casing and LT230 to remind myself. The LT230 has a solid steel dowel locator and hollow steel locator (guess this is the terminology). Both these locators are accommodated for on the Outcast unit. I'll have chase up your thread.

How does the press fit oil seal ring improve the set up as opposed to machined in situ - good though for acting like a speed sleeve, replace seal replace sleeve.

Isuzu.

Mine is the comment of an uninformed ignorant. More to the point why wouldn't it strengthen it? :)

[Vern]

Hmm am sure i posted up after workingonit about my option that i should sell it, did i not press submit or was it deleted?

[isuzurover]

...

Mine is the comment of an uninformed ignorant. More to the point why wouldn't it strengthen it? :)

Not waisting the shaft concentrates stresses at the end of the splines. In a long axle that has the same spline each end you would expect a waisted axle to be stronger (more resiliant to stresses) than a non- waisted axle.

So it is not about changing the point where the axle breaks, it is about spreading the load more uniformly across the axle, thereby making it stronger.

On a short shaft like that with big section changes it is more complex, however it is likely that waisting the shaft after the splines is still preferable.


EDIT.
I showed both images to a Mech. Eng. here at work who is an expert on stress/failure analysis and FEA (I did not give him any back story). He wasn't overly concerned with the design of Sheldon's shaft and thought that the radius looked sufficient, however all else being equal (material and heat treatment) thought the Outcast shaft looked the preferable design.

[workingonit]

Thanks Isuzu. So either shaft design is good. Just down to alloy, treatment etc.

[Vern]

So ben, is what sheldon done ok but just to small for the task?

[isuzurover]

So ben, is what sheldon done ok but just to small for the task?

Not too small. Just suspect material or heat treatment. (or alignment issues - but you can check that).

I hope you have kept the broken bits? If you send them to me I can probably get the hardness tested and an opinion...

[Vern]

Will do ben

[workingonit]

Vern, and measure it up to see if the Outcast will fit if required. You've gone quiet so I assume all is now going well.

Been distracted by latest purchase

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=2302602#post2302602

[Vern]

Quiet as i was out of reception. Plus having a crook kid so he is a priority over aulro, just 😆.

[steveG]

Quiet as i was out of reception. Plus having a crook kid so he is a priority over aulro, just 😆.

Out of reception is the best-ist sort of holiday, but crook kids is no good.
Hope he comes right soon...

Steve

[Vern]

At the docs now, bad case of gastro

[isuzurover]

At the docs now, bad case of gastro

Your holiday just keeps getting better!

(sorry to hear)

[Vern]

Yeah good times😊

[workingonit]

Slight variation on Sheldon's model (thanks for leading the way on this Sheldon). Sorry about the yellow paint, just had a part can to get rid of so used it generously until exhausted, only to find I had forgotten a piece, the white bit.

111657

111658

Collar allows rotation of connecting rod.

111659

Drilled three holes (one plugged) and extended the support brackets to get the throw just right. Top hole is the go. Otherwise the throw was too wide ie R&1st was (exaggerating a bit) over the passengers lap.

111660

111661

The basic linkages I like. The gear stick works fine, but not keen that most of the force is born on the drivers side. May eventually revisit the gearstick, with the view of supporting it both sides in a box, much like the hi/low/diff lock arrangement - might be sooner than I think if it interferes in the transmission tunnel.

I decided on the pin and groove arrangement and rotation in collar, in place of Sheldon's adjustable linkages, because I thought the pin and groove and rotation in collar might accommodated the change in arc lengths (if that's the best way of describing it) ie there might be a tendency with adjustable linkages for the top of the gear lever to follow an arc rather than a straight line between R&1st for example. I didn't stop to try and calculate what the arc might be, and it might not even be noticeable. And I was not sure how much play there would be in the ball joints of the adjustable linkages -presumably none if you can get quality stuff. Just thought I'd try something different. Sheldon, if there is anything of use in this design feel free to mass produce :).

For want of knowing the correct terminology, I like to call the shaft nearest the bell housing the 'range selector'. The one on the side of the box, drivers side, I like to call the 'selector within range'.

Note of warning. If you remove the factory lever from the 'range selector', the shaft will drop a little into the gearbox. If you then fiddle with it you may lose your alignment inside the box ie you won't be able to select all your gear ranges. The solution is to take the cover off the box to observe the realignment. The dexterous insertion of a finger between mechanisms will allow you to push the shaft back up once you have the alignment re-established.

I did some preliminary drawing in FreeCAD to get general layout, work out leverage ratios, and where parts might foul. The program is a little querky, but after doing three? basic modules felt confident enough. If you can, unzip and manually drop into your 'D' drive - Windows (10 in my case) install program gets indigestion. Also available for Linux. http://www.freecadweb.org/

[workingonit]

A few more photos.

111662

111663

111664

111665

[workingonit]

Some shots of gearbox internals.

111666

111667

111668

111669

[workingonit]

Fixed the imbalance.

111670

111671

And what's this supposed to point to, apart from the opposite side of the hole?

111673

[workingonit]

Mounts and bracing plates fixed in by certified welder, taking about 2 & 1/2 hours for the work, plus nearly half an hour of my welding related questions to fill in the extra 1/2 hour of the minimum 3 hour charge. Ben Wright of Weld Wright, car enthusiast in his own right, and nice guy, brings his mobile plant to you. Three other weld shops weren't in the slightest interested in the work.

111678

Note: the cross bracing (under the drive shaft left) has to be shortened a few mm. I took the hard route, and unpicked one end for the shortening, rather than cut it in half.

111679

Original petrol tank rusted out through the bottom. Now adapted to take TD5 poly tank - still got to work out the piping.

111680

111681

111682

[workingonit]

111683

Spent some time fabricating a tank strap from an old swimming pool post, green. Some months later, I got a v8 disco almost complete for $100 - with strap! Talk about rotten timing. Anyway, has proved useful for other bits ie chassis mounting rubbers.

111684

Some details on the clutch. Machining the fly wheel cost about $60, otherwise covered in fiber patterns and very superficial rust. Some details for the guide.

111685

111686

111687

[workingonit]

111688

111689

111690

111692

How do I get rid of the attached thumbnail (I deleted it I thought, in the edit mode), accidental duplication?

[workingonit]

Too many photos - should have posted this...

111694

That's it for the moment.

[Vern]

My shifter is a lot further back than yours. 215mm from the back of the gearbox to the centre of the shifter. That puts it in d1 update console position (same as soft dash rangie).

[workingonit]

My RRC is 1982 or 1984 (can't remember off hand) which I assume is not soft dash. Not sure of the implications for my project. If it hits the dash then I guess I'll have to bend the stick or re-position the mechanism.

My gearbox is approx 330 mm long, not including the bell housing or adapter casing.

From the back of the gearbox to the centre line of the shift is 120mm or 210 from the front.

The hi/low/centre diff lock is mounted on the Outcast adaptor - not in place when the photo was taken.

[Vern]

Yeah might not matter in your model compared to mine. My shifter is 315mm further back from where yours is and my transcase shifter is 175mm in front of my gear shifter

[workingonit]

Do you drive from the back seat? :) I think my gearstick would have to be mounted on the adaptor case if I went back your distance. Did you keep the original transfercase position?

Do you have a photo of your setup somewhere here?

Just had a look. Keeping the stick short, when in forward selection, my knuckles may be shy of touching or may just touch the dash, just under the slide selectors for the aircon/heater. I'm judging this by the position of the outrigger hole on the chassis, and the corresponding hole in the coach work.

I have scope for moving the stick mount back by about 50-60 mm before starting to interfere with the spring rack. Will involve unpicking the stick mount weld and re-welding in new position. Drilling one hole. Making one linkage a bit longer.

I think you've made a valid observation, that in its current position it might be a close call - but I think I have some wiggle room. Otherwise? The dash will just have to go...series one range rover.

You converted yours to soft dash?

[SheldonA]

I'm not a Mech. Eng., but I'm close enough to know a little about shaft design. The transition in radii where the shaft broke is just too abrupt; as others have said.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/89318d1421100591-isuzu-msa-gearbox-lt230-uploadfromtaptalk1421100578159.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/303.jpg
Kt - stress concentration factor.

I did run the numbers, but as it was a rough calculation based on eyeballing the picture above I won't post them. If you're getting a new shaft made, consider putting a larger radius in that transition. It may well have been misalignment, heat treating or the material; but that shaft design would've exacerbated the problem.


I've only just got around to reading some of this thread...

You're quite right. I look at this now and think 'what was I thinking'. This radius should be larger.

Unfortunately on new designs, sometimes things are over looked. Even worse - critical things.

I am sincerely sorry to Vern to stuff up his holiday. If he eventually moves up to Qld, I'll help him make for that lost holiday.


On a positive note, this and other design improvements have now been made.

[Vern]

Do you drive from the back seat? :) I think my gearstick would have to be mounted on the adaptor case if I went back your distance. Did you keep the original transfercase position?

Do you have a photo of your setup somewhere here?

Just had a look. Keeping the stick short, when in forward selection, my knuckles may be shy of touching or may just touch the dash, just under the slide selectors for the aircon/heater. I'm judging this by the position of the outrigger hole on the chassis, and the corresponding hole in the coach work.

I have scope for moving the stick mount back by about 50-60 mm before starting to interfere with the spring rack. Will involve unpicking the stick mount weld and re-welding in new position. Drilling one hole. Making one linkage a bit longer.

I think you've made a valid observation, that in its current position it might be a close call - but I think I have some wiggle room. Otherwise? The dash will just have to go...series one range rover.

You converted yours to soft dash?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/291.jpggearstick in factory position as is the transfercase.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/292.jpg
And no, i sit in the front seat

[workingonit]

Nice photos Vern. Yes, our locations for the sticks are quite different.

And you've got a hoist in the lounge! :)

For anyone.

Just got some new springs (yet to be fitted), front and rear, to compensate for the extra weight of the engine. King KRRR-40HD and KRRR-02, handed, the right being taller than the left.

Comparing the right hand to a rear Disco 1 standard spring? (green) the KRRR-02 are approx 45 mm taller. The KRRR-40HD, which I assume are for the front, are approx 35 mm taller - not quite 2 inch overall. The KRRR-40HD guage is approx 18 mm while the Disco 1 is 16 mm - by my calcs a 26% increase in cross section area (201 vs 250).

I'm wondering if the lift 'disappears' under the extra weight, or becomes quite noticeable and therefore requires work on things like longer brake lines, extended A-frame ball joints, panhard etc. Extended brake lines are a given as the springs will be able to fully extend when weight is off (and they need replacement anyway). But is there any noticeable difference in road handling without further work? I've actually replaced every rubber on the chassis except the panhard, plus new A-frame ball.

I'm assuming once I get the coach work back on the body I will be in for a 2 inch body lift as well.

Anyone happy with the seat belt arrangement in these older vehicles - not to mention the seat doesn't seem to recline, but only move back and forth? All seat belt mounts are on the seat. Gives me the heebie geebies (and in comes the spell checker) to think my life is dependent on this arrangement - any of you driving around with a rather rusted floor???

Having stripped the $100 Disco 1 I've been able to compare safety cells, and seat belt attachment points. As far as I can tell the 1982 RRC B pillar is pretty much identical to the D1. That means in theory I should be able to drill the spot welds on the D1 B pillar and move the top and bottom mounts to the RRC. Then I can get of rid of the RRC seats altogether and install some D1s. Anyone done this?

Transfer case ratios. Ashcroft offer an LT230 1.003 gear set. Apart from larger tyres, is this a path I should pursue to get cruising speeds (100-110kmph) at around 1800-2000 rpm? Getting into drive ratios is a new area for me. I don't take the bathroom with me when I travel (don't tow). Boat only and locally.

[Vern]

What size tyres? If smaller than 33's i would run the 1.003 with msa5g. I tried the 1.222 with msa5g and 33's and it was terrible. 1st gear was non existant, shifting between gears was short.
My new combo is 1.192 tcase and msa5r. This will give me a better first, and good 5th, but the middle gears will be better for towing in hilly conditions.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/280.jpg
Excuse the screen shot.
Solid line is the msa5r with 1.192 case.
Dotted line is msa5g witg 1.003 case.

[workingonit]

Got 29's on the RRC, as with all my other vehicles.

Was going to stick to smaller tyres if possible. Got to consider the legal limit of lift over factory. I can do 150 mm total over factory in the NT - the paper work says anything over 150 mm will not be considered. But then you see some of the lifts rolling around town! Or should I say wobbling down the highway struggling to stay in lane.

Did you try the 33's with 1.003? 33's will probably be the limit for me.

Bought some second hand 31x16inch muds for keeping other vehicles mobile around the block - was going to try them on the RRC when getting to that point.

What site are you using for the comparisons? Have mucked about with the Ashcroft ratio calculator but not 100% I'm feeding all the right info.

What tyre size is in the calculations?

Looks like first is not much different, but better 2nd 3rd 4th ratios for the 'r', but then 5th coming close again to the 'g' box. Going to hit the 100kmph at slightly lower revs (1800) with the 'g' and seems to be what I'm after or what the threads seem to say is desirable!?

[workingonit]

The tyres.

111730

Spare parts bin.

111731

[Vern]

Yes i tried the 1.003 and calcs are done with 33's. The 'g' will be perfect for what your doing, it was slightly to tall for mine though. If only they did a 1.1 ratio tcase 😊

[workingonit]

I asked Dave Ashcroft about availability of 1:1 change gears. Apparently if you have 30,000 euro for tooling and minimum order of 500 then you can have them.

And my other inquiry about can we have the best of both worlds? The answer is that there is not enough room in rover style diff housing for a lockable torque biasing diff - its either one or the other unfortunately.