What constitutes a police pursuit?

[V8Ian]

No chase before fatal Qld crash: union (http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/08/22/07/44/no-chase-before-fatal-qld-crash-union)

Police have admitted to following the car, lights and sirens activated. Witnesses have stated that the police car was travelling at high speed with lights and sirens, behind the stolen car.

I doubt that the cops were just in a hurry to get their Powerball on and coincidentally there was a bad guy in front of them. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...........

Why do Police Services continually distance themselves from chases that end in smashes? How often do we hear of chases that have been abandoned seconds before the car being pursued crashes.

If the crims decide to run, the cops are obligated to chase, that's their job.

[incisor]

yeah....

you could have played skittles on the bribie road last night..

must have been 30 police in a line doing breath tests

totally closed one side of the bribie road a kilometer up the road from the pub...

the lovely man i got looked at me funny when i asked if the pub down the road decided it didn't want to supply a couple of kegs for this years ball?

:D

noticed a defender parked just up from it with the driver on the blower....

:angel:

[Pickles2]

No chase before fatal Qld crash: union (http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/08/22/07/44/no-chase-before-fatal-qld-crash-union)

Police have admitted to following the car, lights and sirens activated. Witnesses have stated that the police car was travelling at high speed with lights and sirens, behind the stolen car.

I doubt that the cops were just in a hurry to get their Powerball on and coincidentally there was a bad guy in front of them. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...........

Why do Police Services continually distance themselves from chases that end in smashes? How often do we hear of chases that have been abandoned seconds before the car being pursued crashes.

If the crims decide to run, the cops are obligated to chase, that's their job.
Agree with your last line 100%
"Distance themselves"?..Yes, I know what you mean, and they shouldn't have to. But with all the "do-gooders" around who are not in favour of ANY high speed pursuit?......I think that's why they do it.
I've got no problem with any pursuits, if the Police ask you to stop, well then you should. ..and if you don't, well like you said, the Police are gonna chase you, and I'm glad they do,......otherwise these arseholes will know the Police won't chase, & they'll just go on driving/doing their lunatic stuff, unchallenged.
Pickles.

[bob10]

The regulations, Bob Article 10.5 Persuits


http://www.police.qld.gov.au/Resources/Internet/services/OperationalPolicies/tm/Chapter10.pdf

[Jeff]

I was once chased by police without realising it. I had done a wheelie leaving traffic lights (not in a Land Rover, but on a bike, quite unintentional) and then pulled into a side street on my way to a mate's place. I heard a siren and a police car at great speed race down the main road, but didn't know they were after me. I wonder how far they went before they realised they weren't chasing anybody.

Anyhow, they came knocking on my door at 10pm that night demanding an explanation, I said I hadn't ridden that bike for a while and it was accidental. They made some noise and left, saying I will hear about it later, but I never did.

Jeff

:rocket:

[trog]

If a vehicle needs to be follower why not "sub contract" the pursuit to the commercial tv networks , and their ever present helicopters.The police could then throttle back and just switch onto social media for updates. I am sure the networks would love to have entire broadcasts devoted to "exclusive" pursuits.

[V8Ian]

If a vehicle needs to be follower why not "sub contract" the pursuit to the commercial tv networks , and their ever present helicopters.The police could then throttle back and just switch onto social media for updates. I am sure the networks would love to have entire broadcasts devoted to "exclusive" pursuits.
Campbell Newman doesn't need any more privatization ideas, ya bloody wag. :D

[CraigE]

Honestly, I support the police and they should be allowed to chase and shoot the dickheads that dont stop. These morons have usually committed offences and usually not just traffic.
So sick of the bleeding hearts that support the offenders.
Give them the power to end the pursuit early using deadly force.

[bob10]

Honestly, I support the police and they should be allowed to chase and shoot the dickheads that dont stop. These morons have usually committed offences and usually not just traffic.
So sick of the bleeding hearts that support the offenders.
Give them the power to end the pursuit early using deadly force.


Never made a mistake in your life, I suppose. While we are at it, let's cut off the hands of thieves, stone to death adulterers, and cut the throats of those who do not conform to our point of view. That would bring the non conformists into line, by golly! Bob

[Mick_Marsh]

Honestly, I support the police and they should be allowed to chase and shoot the dickheads that dont stop. These morons have usually committed offences and usually not just traffic.
So sick of the bleeding hearts that support the offenders.
Give them the power to end the pursuit early using deadly force.
Got to say that would certainly reduce the loss of innocent lives.
I do emphasise, however, police are human and do make mistakes so they had better be damned sure that solution is warranted for the situation. We don't want to get into the situation where the police empty a clip into a person for taking out their wallet.

[bob10]

Got to say that would certainly reduce the loss of innocent lives.
I do emphasise, however, police are human and do make mistakes so they had better be damned sure that solution is warranted for the situation. We don't want to get into the situation where the police empty a clip into a person for taking out their wallet.


Where would you rather live, here, or Ferguson, USA. Bob

[Ausfree]

Where would you rather live, here, or Ferguson, USA. Bob

Yeah, shot the bloke..........what was it.......... SIX times ............. I would have thought one shot would have slowed the bloke down.

Anyrate I admit, the police do have a difficult job. I wouldn't like to do it.

[bob10]

Yeah, shot the bloke..........what was it.......... SIX times ............. I would have thought one shot would have slowed the bloke down.

Anyrate I admit, the police do have a difficult job. I wouldn't like to do it.


Most difficult job in any country. How it pans out, is usually in relation to that country's culture . From the Iraqi's running away, to the Ferguson police shooting some one 6 times. We are very fortunate to have our Police, & our Police culture. We do not appreciate them as much as we should. Bob

[Jeff]

Honestly, I support the police and they should be allowed to chase and shoot the dickheads that dont stop. These morons have usually committed offences and usually not just traffic.
So sick of the bleeding hearts that support the offenders.
Give them the power to end the pursuit early using deadly force.

I have watched the police pursuit shows on the telly, (never again) and they often shoot at the vehicle in a chase, either at the driver or at the wheels. From a moving vehicle a lot of shots don't hit their intended targets, so where do they go? I wouldn't want stray bullets buzzing around.

Jeff

:rocket:

[bee utey]

Honestly, I support the police and they should be allowed to chase and shoot the dickheads that dont stop. These morons have usually committed offences and usually not just traffic.
So sick of the bleeding hearts that support the offenders.
Give them the power to end the pursuit early using deadly force.
Imagine now, there are innocent passengers aboard, someone's children, hostages maybe, or some of the stray bullets take out some innocent bystanders as the cops go beserk. If that's OK with you then I want to live on a different planet to you.

[Greatsouthernland]

Someone struggled for an easy to remember acronym ...:eek:

..."Officers should embrace the ‘Consider all Options and Practise Safety’ (COPS) philosophy when dealing with vehicle interceptions that transition to pursuits and conduct a continual risk assessment in accordance with s. 10.5.5: ‘Risk assessment’ of this chapter.

"C.O.P.S." Now don't you forget it class :D

[Sitec]

If you run, then usually you have something to hide.... Not guilty, no running. Simple really. Yeah, the cops have a very hard job, and are often provoked, but I think they do a great job.... If they have to chase someone, then so be it!

[AndyG]

Meanwhile, in Fergurson, Illinois, it goes on.

[Jeff]

Meanwhile, in Fergurson, Illinois, it goes on.

Do you mean Ferguson, Missouri?

Jeff

:rocket:

[AndyG]

Yep, sorry, knew I shd have checked, still hung over

[Toxic_Avenger]

the cops have a very hard job, and are often provoked, but I think they do a great job.... If they have to chase someone, then so be it!

As someone who has owned / driven modified vehicles for many years, I can't help but feel victimised, not protected when I see a officer of the law.
Meanwhile instances of vandalized property, vehicle break-ins and assaults go un-investigated. The priorities are back-to-front in my opinion. The continued shift of the law from unrelenting punishment of petty crimes and loss of focus on the more serious issues (often perpetrated by repeat offenders) leaves me speechless sometimes.

[Jeff]

As someone who has owned / driven modified vehicles for many years, I can't help but feel victimised, not protected when I see a officer of the law.
Meanwhile instances of vandalized property, vehicle break-ins and assaults go un-investigated. The priorities are back-to-front in my opinion. The continued shift of the law from unrelenting punishment of petty crimes and loss of focus on the more serious issues (often perpetrated by repeat offenders) leaves me speechless sometimes.

I suppose they go for easy targets. Like going to the Big Day Out with sniffer dogs, it must be like shooting fish in a barrel for our donut loving friends. The more difficult targets would take much more work, only to have judge let them straight back out, or legal aid say they were being victimised.

Jeff

:rocket:

[Sprint]

I suppose they go for easy targets. Like going to the Big Day Out with sniffer dogs, it must be like shooting fish in a barrel for our donut loving friends. The more difficult targets would take much more work, only to have judge let them straight back out, or legal aid say they were being victimised.

Jeff

:rocket:

It makes the arrest rate look good.....

[CraigE]

Imagine now, there are innocent passengers aboard, someone's children, hostages maybe, or some of the stray bullets take out some innocent bystanders as the cops go beserk. If that's OK with you then I want to live on a different planet to you.
Sorry but generally if you are in the car you are not totally innocent generally. So you are quite happy for these idiots to initiate a chase and kill or injure other innocent parties when they use their car as a weapon? A little contrary dont you think that the offender can kill or mame but the police cannot end the pursuit early. Or just get away with the offence they have committed?
How often in Australia have you seen a police pursuit of a vehicle containing hostages. I cannot even recall one. Of course every pursuit needs some reasoning and thought of the actions.
This is not about them injuring innocent bystanders just stopping the pursuit and the criminal causing it. It is obvious by your post that the offenders in your opinion are the victims.
The police should have other options to stop the pursuit quickly and avoid other events occurring. Part of that may be shooting tyres etc or if a serious offender the offender.
It amazes me the people that criticize the police that have a very difficult job, but would be the first to call them and want assistance when a crime is committed against them.
Comparing this to incident in the US is just ridiculous, shooting someone at close range when there is other options should not of course be condoned.

[CraigE]

I suppose they go for easy targets. Like going to the Big Day Out with sniffer dogs, it must be like shooting fish in a barrel for our donut loving friends. The more difficult targets would take much more work, only to have judge let them straight back out, or legal aid say they were being victimised.

Jeff

:rocket:

I cannot believe you really believe that. The police have many duties including drugged out idiots at festivals.

[Greatsouthernland]

No offence, but to anyone who thinks it is an option to shoot out a tyre during a high speed pursuit with a standard issue Glock .40 S&W and the average firearms training a police officer receives...not impossible to do, but you'd need a lot of luck. I'm working hard to stand (not drive) with two hands (not one), to hit a 20cent bull at 20 metres, and I practice (legally ;) ) about 10 times more than the average officer (so I've been told, by an average officer).

Hollywood has a lot to answer for...

Now given a S&W 686 .357magnum 6inch - see 'Dirty Harry / Clint, (and a stable platform :cool: ) you could quickly deflate most rotating tyres (at less than 50 metres away). But again, to do it whilst in a pursuit ... 'Tell em they're dreaming'. :D

Photo of the two rounds attached for comparison ;)

[digger]

My 2c, (that long it'll be more like $2 but anyway..)

*-the regulations quoted are one state only, each state has different policies and regulations. some wildly different to others.

*- "get the ever present media choppers to follow the pursuit"
**-MMM and when they stop the car somewhere what then? Or if they have a prang and hurt/kill someone whilst being followed by the chopper is it the medias fault? (because if it were a police chopper you can bet your last dollar it would be the police's fault!) & who will pay the media for the attendance of these choppers?
**- how many media choppers flying about 8-10 hrs out of the capital cities? what about your chase theory then?
**- what would their response time be to 'take over the chase' at for example 1am? (rescue chopper takes over 1 hr to travel to where I am once its airbourne and its only 145k by air... so take that out to 800 or 1,000km -- what is the range of a chopper unfuelled?

*- shooting out the tyres is a dreamers folly, there was a test done here with a datto 180b in the 80's, it was chocked up and acc jammed to be travelling at about 60 (obviously wheel spinning and no contact with ground.) It was shot at a number of times using different then issued calibres, most were completely ineffective, and no control could be taken over the projectile off the tyre. You would need the exact angle to take the tyre safely out... no police dept in Aust that I am aware of recommends or condones tyre shooting at moving vehicle. (we dont just spray rounds out like some clint eastwood movie... each round carries lethal force, not something to be used lightly)

*-Shooting the engine block of a running car was equally as useless, it (same car) was shot multiple times (incl 12g solid slugs) and kept running until someone hit the dissy, but by then the weight of the huge amount of extra lead would likely have slowed it!

*- suggestions of lethal force, Maybe, (suprising as it may seem to some of you,) maybe some of us (most or even all is more like it) don't go to work just hoping we can squeeze off a few rounds and maybe even injure some scumbag or cash in his ticket for good! Maybe we'd prefer to just avoid lethal force unless it is the last resort...

It is something no one wants to do, I've written about this topic and my experience elsewhere here and I shan't be going over it again,suffice to say its not an experience anyone wants to live with.

*- suggestions that pinching drug takers at the big day out concert is like "shooting fish in a barrel" and "lazy" are incredibly short sighted.
**- its against the law. (note the bolded fullstop...it was intended)
**- if you go to a public place with illegal drugs nowdays, for what reason do you think that would be alright!? if you go to BDO with drugs, well, you're an idiot..they announce for weeks before that they'll be doing drug sweeps.... as I said..idiot!
**- how often nowdays do we hear the excuse in court "he didn't know what he was doing as he had been taking drugs" or "the dispute during the drug deal led to a stabbing/shooting/bashing/murder".. if they are caught maybe they'll get help and quit taking the stuff - we may save someones life with those drug sweeps.. either a "druggie" or some bystander who gets hurt by someone involved with drugs...
**- have you ever tried to revive someone who has gone into cardiac arrest due to drugs not being "as advertised" or their having a bad reaction? Its not fun, if you are lucky enough to keep them going until ambos arrive they are still likely to have permanent damage..
If not, (or even if they do live) you then have to knock on mr and mrs respectables door and tell them that little johnny or sheila is in fact in hospital or mortuary because theyve taken drugs... yeah thats fun for us too... maybe we see an advantage to stopping that before it gets to that stage.. remember in these smaller places, we know the people as we live and work in the community... that doesnt make it easier...for anyone.

**- "stop picking on innocent people/petty crimes and start picking on more serious stuff"
Sure! but
a)you'd be surprised how a minor thing can lead to those more serious matters so easily. More than once Ive stopped speeding or defectable vehicles and ended up locating large amounts of tablets or cannabis and even stolen or cut down firearms....

b) what evidence would you like me to use to get these so called Mr Bigs off the street? Its amazing how often people point to someone.."he's a dealer"
Cool, tell me what you know and I'm there... Ohh well I just think he is... or even, no Ive told you he is you work it out from there... cheers that's helpful!

I don't know if anyone has noticed but I don't rush about telling people how to fix cars, or do plumbing or even grow the lawn at our local oval...I may have some theories about this stuff but I don't have the training or experience to tell someone who is doing it competantly how they should do it, why does this not apply to policework? Police do two years training before they are a fully sworn officer... yet that is obviously wasted as everyone who has not done the training nor done the job seems to know what to do and how (don't worry about little things like the law and its restrictions) and obviously the Police don't know what they're doing.....

When you are running away from the idiot driving like a maniac or drugged out and going crazy, who are the people going towards them?? for what? fun?? Maybe reassess and see the view from another spot before you judge...

At the end of the day, Police are looking to stop Billy The Goose from hurting himself or anyone else and hopefully stop him from taking or damaging other peoples stuff....thats very basically the aim..

I could keep going here but I've had my little vent... If I've upset anyone, well sorry, but there you go..

cheers, I'm finished, go on, move on now, there is nothing to see here...
digger

PS,
and Jeff, "our donut loving friends??" seriously??
get a grip son, thats from the US where 'donut shops' are the local diners or coffee shops too..and how often do you spend the day without eating or having a drink whilst at work?. ..I havent seen anyone calling you Camel!.. but thats OK obviously you know enough Police well enough to make that judgement and generalisation....

(stretching on your theory though, that an occupation defines the person and their actions, then I suppose all carpenters should be either worshipped or crucified? ....sounding ISIS like at all?)

(please insert whatever icon is required for this post to be taken with a pinch of salt- Im not aiming to belittle, insult or offend anyone-- I'll put all that in a different post! :twisted)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Digger, if you shoot a swell as you type I'm trading in my balaclava right now!:D

[digger]

Digger, if you shoot a swell as you type I'm trading in my balaclava right now!:D

Pedro,
I'm a firearms training and range officer amongst other things :)
keep the balaclava, but roll it up and use it as a beanie.

[bee utey]

Sorry but generally if you are in the car you are not totally innocent generally. So you are quite happy for these idiots to initiate a chase and kill or injure other innocent parties when they use their car as a weapon? A little contrary dont you think that the offender can kill or mame but the police cannot end the pursuit early. Or just get away with the offence they have committed?
How often in Australia have you seen a police pursuit of a vehicle containing hostages. I cannot even recall one. Of course every pursuit needs some reasoning and thought of the actions.
This is not about them injuring innocent bystanders just stopping the pursuit and the criminal causing it. It is obvious by your post that the offenders in your opinion are the victims.
The police should have other options to stop the pursuit quickly and avoid other events occurring. Part of that may be shooting tyres etc or if a serious offender the offender.
It amazes me the people that criticize the police that have a very difficult job, but would be the first to call them and want assistance when a crime is committed against them.
Comparing this to incident in the US is just ridiculous, shooting someone at close range when there is other options should not of course be condoned.

All I can say is, WTF are you smoking. It is obvious by your post that you have no idea what I think.:mad:

BTW thanks Digger for your rational post, that's head and shoulders above this lot.

[Greatsouthernland]

My 2c, (that long it'll be more like $2 but anyway..)

*-the regulations quoted are one state only, each state has different policies and regulations. some wildly different to others.

*- "get the ever present media choppers to follow the pursuit"
**-MMM and when they stop the car somewhere what then? Or if they have a prang and hurt/kill someone whilst being followed by the chopper is it the medias fault? (because if it were a police chopper you can bet your last dollar it would be the police's fault!) & who will pay the media for the attendance of these choppers?
**- how many media choppers flying about 8-10 hrs out of the capital cities? what about your chase theory then?
**- what would their response time be to 'take over the chase' at for example 1am? (rescue chopper takes over 1 hr to travel to where I am once its airbourne and its only 145k by air... so take that out to 800 or 1,000km -- what is the range of a chopper unfuelled?

*- shooting out the tyres is a dreamers folly, there was a test done here with a datto 180b in the 80's, it was chocked up and acc jammed to be travelling at about 60 (obviously wheel spinning and no contact with ground.) It was shot at a number of times using different then issued calibres, most were completely ineffective, and no control could be taken over the projectile off the tyre. You would need the exact angle to take the tyre safely out... no police dept in Aust that I am aware of recommends or condones tyre shooting at moving vehicle. (we dont just spray rounds out like some clint eastwood movie... each round carries lethal force, not something to be used lightly)

*-Shooting the engine block of a running car was equally as useless, it (same car) was shot multiple times (incl 12g solid slugs) and kept running until someone hit the dissy, but by then the weight of the huge amount of extra lead would likely have slowed it!

*- suggestions of lethal force, Maybe, (suprising as it may seem to some of you,) maybe some of us (most or even all is more like it) don't go to work just hoping we can squeeze off a few rounds and maybe even injure some scumbag or cash in his ticket for good! Maybe we'd prefer to just avoid lethal force unless it is the last resort...

It is something no one wants to do, I've written about this topic and my experience elsewhere here and I shan't be going over it again,suffice to say its not an experience anyone wants to live with.

*- suggestions that pinching drug takers at the big day out concert is like "shooting fish in a barrel" and "lazy" are incredibly short sighted.
**- its against the law. (note the bolded fullstop...it was intended)
**- if you go to a public place with illegal drugs nowdays, for what reason do you think that would be alright!? if you go to BDO with drugs, well, you're an idiot..they announce for weeks before that they'll be doing drug sweeps.... as I said..idiot!
**- how often nowdays do we hear the excuse in court "he didn't know what he was doing as he had been taking drugs" or "the dispute during the drug deal led to a stabbing/shooting/bashing/murder".. if they are caught maybe they'll get help and quit taking the stuff - we may save someones life with those drug sweeps.. either a "druggie" or some bystander who gets hurt by someone involved with drugs...
**- have you ever tried to revive someone who has gone into cardiac arrest due to drugs not being "as advertised" or their having a bad reaction? Its not fun, if you are lucky enough to keep them going until ambos arrive they are still likely to have permanent damage..
If not, (or even if they do live) you then have to knock on mr and mrs respectables door and tell them that little johnny or sheila is in fact in hospital or mortuary because theyve taken drugs... yeah thats fun for us too... maybe we see an advantage to stopping that before it gets to that stage.. remember in these smaller places, we know the people as we live and work in the community... that doesnt make it easier...for anyone.

**- "stop picking on innocent people/petty crimes and start picking on more serious stuff"
Sure! but
a)you'd be surprised how a minor thing can lead to those more serious matters so easily. More than once Ive stopped speeding or defectable vehicles and ended up locating large amounts of tablets or cannabis and even stolen or cut down firearms....

b) what evidence would you like me to use to get these so called Mr Bigs off the street? Its amazing how often people point to someone.."he's a dealer"
Cool, tell me what you know and I'm there... Ohh well I just think he is... or even, no Ive told you he is you work it out from there... cheers that's helpful!

I don't know if anyone has noticed but I don't rush about telling people how to fix cars, or do plumbing or even grow the lawn at our local oval...I may have some theories about this stuff but I don't have the training or experience to tell someone who is doing it competantly how they should do it, why does this not apply to policework? Police do two years training before they are a fully sworn officer... yet that is obviously wasted as everyone who has not done the training nor done the job seems to know what to do and how (don't worry about little things like the law and its restrictions) and obviously the Police don't know what they're doing.....

When you are running away from the idiot driving like a maniac or drugged out and going crazy, who are the people going towards them?? for what? fun?? Maybe reassess and see the view from another spot before you judge...

At the end of the day, Police are looking to stop Billy The Goose from hurting himself or anyone else and hopefully stop him from taking or damaging other peoples stuff....thats very basically the aim..

I could keep going here but I've had my little vent... If I've upset anyone, well sorry, but there you go..

cheers, I'm finished, go on, move on now, there is nothing to see here...
digger

PS,
and Jeff, "our donut loving friends??" seriously??
get a grip son, thats from the US where 'donut shops' are the local diners or coffee shops too..and how often do you spend the day without eating or having a drink whilst at work?. ..I havent seen anyone calling you Camel!.. but thats OK obviously you know enough Police well enough to make that judgement and generalisation....

(stretching on your theory though, that an occupation defines the person and their actions, then I suppose all carpenters should be either worshipped or crucified? ....sounding ISIS like at all?)

(please insert whatever icon is required for this post to be taken with a pinch of salt- Im not aiming to belittle, insult or offend anyone-- I'll put all that in a different post! :twisted)



Thanks Digger, I was hoping you'd step on a few of these outlandish claims. I'm sure it frustrates some in the job to hear/read this type of crap (Hollywood inspired opinion), so thanks for a balanced, calm and informative response.

Thanks for your work (post above and day/night real job) :D

Cheers.

[DiscoMick]

I'm sure it won't be long before they are using drones to follow runaway vehicles rather than racing in traffic.

[Greatsouthernland]

I'm sure it won't be long before they are using drones to follow runaway vehicles rather than racing in traffic.

I think they already are budgeting for it, just not gonna bring it up in conversation :D a lot cheaper than helicopters and you can have a lot more of them. They've already been used for crowd monitoring o/s.

[olbod]

I get the impression that a Police pursuit is one that does not involve the death of an innocent person.
I also get the impression that every pursuit was called off seconds before said innocent was killed.
But I think pursuits are necessary, I just hope that I dont become innocently involved. But then there would not have been a pursuit, eh.

I loved watching the yank pursuit when 200 cops chased that football actor bloke that murdered his wife. Went on for miles at 30 mph.
They should have called in NCIS, it would have been just as stupid.
That was back in the old days tho, today they would have rammed and spun him off the road, waited till he put his hands up then shot him dead.

Well anyway.

[BreakingBad]

An old work colleague who used to be a cop said they never called off pursuits for fear of encouraging others to try to get away. Without actually saying it he also gave the impression that in order to avoid lawsuits, police radioed in to say they called the chase off only after an accident occurred, then radioed in minutes later to advise of said accident.

[Greatsouthernland]

All I can say is, WTF are you smoking...

BTW thanks Digger for your rational post, that's head and shoulders above this lot.

Which "Lot"? Those responding to your post that may not have been 'crystal' clear, or those with different views and experience than you, or just the whole lot on AULRO? :(

Just a question your highness, not opposition to any view you may have, just a question. Of course you can take it any way you like :angel: but I'm interested...briefly. :p

:angel:

[bee utey]

Which "Lot"? Those responding to your post that may not have been 'crystal' clear, or those with different views and experience than you, or just the whole lot on AULRO? :(

Just a question your highness, not opposition to any view you may have, just a question. Of course you can take it any way you like :angel: but I'm interested...briefly. :p

:angel:
Now you're trolling for the lulz. The 'lot" referring to the quoted comment, not the people. Remember this place has rules? I try to stick to them. You could too if you cared.

[Ausfree]

Digger, glad you stepped in. It's good to hear from somebody with the necessary experience in policing.:) It has helped to get this Thread back on the straight and narrow.

[Redback]

Come on guys, stop playing the man, stay on the subject or it will go.

Baz.

[Greatsouthernland]

Now you're trolling for the lulz. The 'lot" referring to the quoted comment, not the people. Remember this place has rules? I try to stick to them. You could too if you cared.

Yes, I did it for the lulz, maybe I should have made that more obvious :angel: (yeh right!) I suppose we can ALL lighten up.

I do care buddy, more than you know ;)

Who's that trip trapping across my bridge? Lulz :angel:

[DiscoMick]

Yep, in most cases they don't need to stop them immediately, just track where they're going and be waiting for them.


I don't object to police pursuits if there is no alternative. With so many cameras around, choppers, drones and satellites, I guess its a case of can they coordinate their resources to keep track of a fleeing vehicle. Probably easier said than done, of course. To really make it work we'd have to give up even more of our privacy and accept constant and total surveillance in public places, which I'm not comfortable about.

[Greatsouthernland]

Yep, in most cases they don't need to stop them immediately, just track where they're going and be waiting for them.


I don't object to police pursuits if there is no alternative. With so many cameras around, choppers, drones and satellites, I guess its a case of can they coordinate their resources to keep track of a fleeing vehicle. Probably easier said than done, of course....

Agreed, by covertly following them to their 'lair', could uncover a cache of other indictables :cool:

edit: but again, this is only a hypothetical, it depends on the previous actions as to the response taken, and I'd leave that hypothesising to the 'experts', politicians, nah, joking, police of course ;)

[DiscoMick]

It's a tough call because, naturally the pursuing cops want to stop the bad guys before they do anything else, but equally we can't have peoples' lives being put at unnecessary risk.
I guess the best we can say is that most pursuits do seem to be handled sensibly, despite the stupid ways some people behave, and we only hear about the ones that go wrong. It's not like our roads are infested with cowboy cops.
Mind you, did you see that American one on the news where two cops pulled their guns on a woman with three little kids in her wagon and had the terrified kids screaming on the roadside? Blamed on bad information.
Of course, in the USA you would never know when someone was going to come out of a car with guns blazing, since they have such reckless ideas about allowing Joe Blow to carry weapons, so you can't blame the cops for being jumpy.

[Basil135]

I dont see how any of us, myself included, with 1 or 2 notable exceptions, can say whether the police should or should not call off a particular chase. Those exceptions are for those that are actually in the job.

We are not on the scene, we don't have all the facts, and the media takes whatever side will make the best headline.

When was the last time that an offender was killed, and the family went on TV and said "he was a mongral. He had it coming to him?" No, he is always loving, caring, would do anything for his kids, and his mother, it is a great loss, a huge shock.... bla bla bla

Police do not WANT to chase people. Remember, the police are people too. They have families they want to go home to. Urgent duty driving brings with it a stack of risks, and all of those risks need to be weighed up in a couple of seconds. Did you realise that if the police chase an alleged offender, and even after they have called off the chase, if that offender wraps himself around a pole, even an hour or 2 later, there will be an investigation?

How many of us have their every action examined in absolute detail, by a coroner with 20/20 hindsight vision? Not too many, I would expect.



And, as for the incident in the US, the car matched the vague description, and I understand (thru the media) that the police only had a partial rego plate. Plus, it was in Texas, where the gun carry laws are very liberal. It would be a reasonable expectation that someone the police are pulling over would have a firearm, and thus, they exercised due caution. Again, the police have a right to go home to their families, just like we all do.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Someone struggled for an easy to remember acronym ...:eek:

http://www.police.qld.gov.au/Resources/Internet/services/OperationalPolicies/tm/Chapter10.pdf
..."Officers should embrace the ‘Consider all Options and Practise Safety’ (COPS) philosophy when dealing with vehicle interceptions that transition to pursuits and conduct a continual risk assessment in accordance with s. 10.5.5: ‘Risk assessment’

"C.O.P.S." Now don't you forget it class :DI'm just wondering if the Risk Assessment has to be done online or its a paper form using the AGREE process. By the time one of them is completed it will be time for the officer's next days off! :o :D

[V8Ian]

I get the impression that a Police pursuit is one that does not involve the death of an innocent person.
I also get the impression that every pursuit was called off seconds before said innocent was killed.
But I think pursuits are necessary, I just hope that I dont become innocently involved. But then there would not have been a pursuit, eh.

Exactly, that's what inspired the original post.


I dont see how any of us, myself included, with 1 or 2 notable exceptions, can say whether the police should or should not call off a particular chase. Those exceptions are for those that are actually in the job.

We are not on the scene, we don't have all the facts, and the media takes whatever side will make the best headline.
Ain't that the truth.

When was the last time that an offender was killed, and the family went on TV and said "he was a mongral. He had it coming to him?" No, he is always loving, caring, would do anything for his kids, and his mother, it is a great loss, a huge shock.... bla bla bla
And that.

Police do not WANT to chase people.
We all have parts of our job that we don't like, cops are no different
Remember, the police are people too. They have families they want to go home to. Urgent duty driving brings with it a stack of risks, and all of those risks need to be weighed up in a couple of seconds. Did you realise that if the police chase an alleged offender, and even after they have called off the chase, if that offender wraps himself around a pole, even an hour or 2 later, there will be an investigation?
In an ideal world the cops on the ground would be supported by the arse covering politicians and high ranking officers, who are usually more political animal rather than cop.
How many of us have their every action examined in absolute detail, by a coroner with 20/20 hindsight vision? Not too many, I would expect.

Every truck driver involved in a fatal accident; their work diary will be scrutinised for three months previous.

And, as for the incident in the US, the car matched the vague description, and I understand (thru the media) that the police only had a partial rego plate. Plus, it was in Texas, where the gun carry laws are very liberal. It would be a reasonable expectation that someone the police are pulling over would have a firearm, and thus, they exercised due caution. Again, the police have a right to go home to their families, just like we all do.
I've expressed my views on the punishment for clowns who fail to stop, so I won't go there again.
Why do Police Services distance themselves from chases that end in crashes, instead of stating that they were doing their job?
The blame lies squarely with the driver that fails to stop, end of story.
If do gooders want to turn the tables and blame the cops, why not follow the chain of responsibility further and blame the car, tyre, fuel suppliers et al?

[Jeff]

Police do not WANT to chase people.

I am sure if everybody stopped committing crime, most police would get bored very quickly, and talk fondly of the old days of chasing crooks. They joined the job knowing they would one day have to chase crims.

On a side note, the only policeman to have a running gun fight from a motorcycle in the history of the New South Wales Police passed away recently.

Jeff

:rocket:

[Basil135]

Ok, let me re-phrase my statement.

MOST police would PREFER to not engage in high speed pursuits. This action places themselves, their partner, members of the public, and the alleged offender at greater risk of being involved in a collision potentially resulting in injury or death to one of the aforementioned persons.

Yes, they are trained in the very act of high speed driving. Yes, they will do it if necessary, but my point is if there was another way of catching the alleged offender, without the need to engage in a high speed pursuit, then I feel sure that would be the preferable option.

[Greatsouthernland]

I think they already are budgeting for it, just not gonna bring it up in conversation :D a lot cheaper than helicopters and you can have a lot more of them. They've already been used for crowd monitoring o/s.

And here it is ...

More police departments considering the use of drones - baltimoresun.com (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/sun-investigates/bs-md-police-drone-20140824,0,6970988.story)

[d2dave]

**- have you ever tried to revive someone who has gone into cardiac arrest due to drugs not being "as advertised" or their having a bad reaction? Its not fun, if you are lucky enough to keep them going until ambos arrive they are still likely to have permanent damage..

Definitely not the brain

If not, (or even if they do live) you then have to knock on mr and mrs respectables door and tell them that little johnny or sheila is in fact in hospital or mortuary because theyve taken drugs...

Just send them a text

PS,
and Jeff, "our donut loving friends??" seriously??
get a grip son, thats from the US where

Been watching too much of chief Wiggam in the Simpsons.



On a serious note, great post Digger.

[CraigE]

All I can say is, WTF are you smoking. It is obvious by your post that you have no idea what I think.:mad:

BTW thanks Digger for your rational post, that's head and shoulders above this lot.

Of course I dont know what you actually think. But it is a double edged sword. If you pursue and an incident occurs that the person being pursued or an innocent party is hurt or killed. If you dont and similar still happens what then? If the option is available to stop the vehicle quickly using whatever means available including lethal force against the driver, is that not a safer result? We are not talking about a hostage situation, that is a completely different scenario. I am only responding should they pursue?
Never going to be a simple answer.
Both scenarios could be played out depending on the scenario and police officer involved. Either decision does not make the action wrong. There are consequences for both. Not pursuing is definitely not the answer either. More onus needs to be put back on the person fleeing as often if they dont pursue the offender gets away as often the vehicle being used is stolen.
I for one would like to see serious criminals detained asap.
Of course when I say shoot at I certainly mean at the driver if no one else is in the car and certainly not using a standard side arm at the tyres, a shotgun or similar would need to be used or other options to stop the vehicle quickly as current methods just dont work.

[Greatsouthernland]

It's a tough call because, naturally the pursuing cops want to stop the bad guys before they do anything else, but equally we can't have peoples' lives being put at unnecessary risk.
I guess the best we can say is that most pursuits do seem to be handled sensibly, despite the stupid ways some people behave, and we only hear about the ones that go wrong. It's not like our roads are infested with cowboy cops.
Mind you, did you see that American one on the news where two cops pulled their guns on a woman with three little kids in her wagon and had the terrified kids screaming on the roadside? Blamed on bad information.
Of course, in the USA you would never know when someone was going to come out of a car with guns blazing, since they have such reckless ideas about allowing Joe Blow to carry weapons, so you can't blame the cops for being jumpy.


This one?


Police Shoot At Oriana Ferrell And Van Full Of Her Kids During Wild Stop - YouTube

[Greatsouthernland]

... and certainly not using a standard side arm at the tyres, a shotgun or similar would need to be used or other options to stop the vehicle quickly as current methods just dont work.

Sorry, but a shotgun from behind is as useless as a slingshot (for tyres).

I'm gonna go out on a non-Hollywood limb and suggest on an increasing scale of effectiveness - at least an AR15, .50cal full auto, then for the tough jobs RPG.

This one will stop that pesky 180B with less collateral damage than the RPG :cool:

http://youtu.be/kN6uvd1GeSs

[CraigE]

Sorry, but a shotgun from behind is as useless as a slingshot (for tyres).

I'm gonna go out on a non-Hollywood limb and suggest on an increasing scale of effectiveness - at least an AR15, .50cal full auto, then for the tough jobs RPG.

This one will stop that pesky 180B with less collateral damage than the RPG :cool:

50 Beowulf Full Auto - YouTube (http://youtu.be/kN6uvd1GeSs)

:D:D:D:D:D
Seriously about 30 years ago my Aunties boyfriend at the time had his EH stolen. He did get it back and the police did indicate they had to take extreme action. Was a very modified vehicle with a lot of $ and man hours. He was that glad to get it back he did not question the damage to the tyre and rim, let alone the pellets we pulled out of the tyre carcass.

There is no quick solution, but a solution that can stop people running like they do needs some work.

[Greatsouthernland]

:D:D:D:D:D
Seriously about 30 years ago my Aunties boyfriend at the time had his EH stolen. He did get it back and the police did indicate they had to take extreme action. Was a very modified vehicle with a lot of $ and man hours. He was that glad to get it back he did not question the damage to the tyre and rim, let alone the pellets we pulled out of the tyre carcass.

There is no quick solution, but a solution that can stop people running like they do needs some work.

I did say from behind...and I still believe so.

the rim damage you mentioned indicates it was shot from alongside, and does not prove it happened 'during' a pursuit. So in context, I believe - from behind, it is still useless. But no doubt the right pellet size, perhaps 00, buck, or solids, will work from 'alongside' hence the rim damage...all easy if the thief stops for traffic lights and theres room to get alongside :)

[CraigE]

I did say from behind...and I still believe so.

the rim damage you mentioned indicate it was shot from alongside, and does not prove it happened 'during' a pursuit. So in context, I believe, from behind, it is still useless. But no doubt the right pellet size, perhaps 00, buck, or solids, will work from 'alongside' hence the rim damage...all easy if the thief stops for traffic lights and theres room to get alongside :)

They actually got it on the Murray Bridge/Mannum road at speed, but yes you are correct they must have been bloody close. The car did leave the road and was covered in dust and crap but very little other damage and was also back in the day when the police would get away with this. One of the police officers involved knew my Dad and explained a bit more than the owner was actually told in confidence, but as was 34 odd years ago, probably can talk about now.