Ex CIA pilot swears affidavit that no planes hit twin towers

[Greatsouthernland]

Yeh conspiracy theory stuff, but they DO NOT come any more qualified than the son of the inventor of the Lear Jet among other talents.

A sobering read, I can't believe the media and US govt would lie :eek: but if they can't convincingly argue this affidavit, then the fact will be LAW that no planes hit the towers...if so, what did? And why?

Ex-CIA Pilot Gives Sworn Testimony That No Planes Hit The Twin Towers - World Observer Online (http://worldobserveronline.com/2014/03/09/ex-cia-pilot-gives-sworn-testimony-planes-hit-twin-towers/)

[AnD3rew]

Sure except that hundreds of eyewitnesses saw it live and millions saw the second plane hitting on live TV.

The scale of a conspiracy that could have set all that up is staggering.

[Roverlord off road spares]

So the Aussie chap that I knew, and who was on his honeymoon, who witnessed it and had just left the twin towers lied to Me :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I can believe it was not true, it was all done in a studio with special effects , just like the bogus moon landing.
USA a land of nutters.

As for how could an inexperienced pilot fly the plane so precisely....... since there are no witnesses, how can one assume the hijackers are actually the ones flying the plane, there minimal training would give them basic knowledge of the system, with a gun to the head of the pilot with fear threats to his family etc , they could have forced the pilot to fly the plane into the towers. The hijackers basic knowledge ,may have alerted them to any tricks a pilot might have tried. Since there were no survivors, the authorities might assume a hijacker was at the controls.

[vnx205]

That same ex CIA pilot also said:
Since 1938 we’ve lost over 200 aircraft due to UFO hostilities and thousands of soldiers in all kinds of different actions with aliens. Since that time several hundred thousand civilians have disappeared with no trace. Several thousand of those were eliminated by us because of their chance encounters with the aliens which we could ill afford to have publicized.
A slightly more frightening phenomena known as “human mutilations” have occurred on a regular basis and are similar to “cattle mutilations”. In that the human or humans are taken from the street, so to speak, and returned to the same area about 45 minutes to an hour later with their rectums cored out, their genitals removed, eyes removed from their sockets, and completely drained of blood. In all cases it appeared that the mutilation procedures occurred while the persons were still alive and conscious. One of our scientists speculates that apparently the human specimens had to be alive for the samples to be worth anything. Abductions occur on a daily basis throughout the United States to at least 10% of the population.

Ex-CIA Pilot John Lear Gives Sworn Testimony That No Planes Hit The Twin Towers | Paranormal (http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal/2014/05/ex-cia-pilot-john-lear-gives-sworn-testimony-that-no-planes-hit-the-twin-towers-2469288.html)

That probably gives you an insight into the way his mind works.

[korg20000bc]

From reading the article he is saying that no commercial airliner hit the towers not that NO PLANE hit the towers.

[BigBlackDog]

He also said there would be 3 engine cores weighing in at 9000lbs each, pretty sure they only got 2 engines, and an APU is only about 600lbs in plane like that. Who says these terrorists were inexperienced? Anyone can have a go in a full motion simulator these days. First time most pilots land a plane like that for real is with a plane full of passengers. Anyway, :censored:

[Roverlord off road spares]

From reading the article he is saying that no commercial airliner hit the towers not that NO PLANE hit the towers.
The poor soles on those non commercial airliners must have been travelling for free.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I think I know why he's an EX-CIA pilot, failed his mental health review!

[Kevin B]

The thing i find amusing is, Aliens travel counless of trillions of lightyears to get here and when they do they look up our Arse... WTF

[korg20000bc]

The poor soles on those non commercial airliners must have been travelling for free.

Yep. A full load of shoes travelling for free.
;)

[Greatsouthernland]

OK, I hadn't seen anything he said about ALIENS :eek: it seems like he's a product of CIA indoctrination gone wrong, probably gave himself too much truth serum, not sure.

Apologies for the apparent insensitive piece in that journalism that ignores there were families who lost their loved ones in planes and buildings.

[Basil135]

The most annoying, and insensitive part of all this, is that now, the government has to prove that it did happen.

As mentioned in the article, as he has sworn an affidavit, unless it is refuted, it becomes fact. :angrylock:

[SlowRide]

The planes hitting the towers I can believe - we have it on video. But I have a hard time believing they cleaned up the smouldering wreckage of two separate plane crashes before TV cameras could even hit the scene. 100+ tonne planes cleaned up by a few 'just happened to be nearby' crews, no observation of the forensic process to identify bodies at either site, and no independence or transparency to the subsequent inquiry.

Stinks like a rotten fish to me.

[BMKal]

The most annoying, and insensitive part of all this, is that now, the government has to prove that it did happen.

As mentioned in the article, as he has sworn an affidavit, unless it is refuted, it becomes fact. :angrylock:

Doubt it. Any idiot can "swear an affidavit". Doesn't mean at all that it is the truth or "fact". Just the ravings of a nutcase, and only given any credibility by gullible fools. ;)

[AndyG]

The thing i find amusing is, Aliens travel counless of trillions of lightyears to get here and when they do they look up our Arse... WTF

I'll take one for the team, IF i've had a big Curry & Red Wine night:twisted:

[korg20000bc]

Can't believe all the ad hominem counters here.
Sure, he has some outlandish views of some issues but he has made some concrete claims that surely, if incorrect, should be simple to refute other than by saying that he's a whacko.

[Greatsouthernland]

Doubt it. Any idiot can "swear an affidavit". Doesn't mean at all that it is the truth or "fact". Just the ravings of a nutcase, and only given any credibility by gullible fools. ;)

True. Happens in the family court all the time :angel:

[frantic]

The planes hitting the towers I can believe - we have it on video. But I have a hard time believing they cleaned up the smouldering wreckage of two separate plane crashes before TV cameras could even hit the scene. 100+ tonne planes cleaned up by a few 'just happened to be nearby' crews, no observation of the forensic process to identify bodies at either site, and no independence or transparency to the subsequent inquiry.

Stinks like a rotten fish to me.

Cleaned up? The building landed on and mixed with the planes wreckage.
1-200tons of plane sounds a lot, but not when it's mixed with 1,500,000 tons of concrete and steel rubble. Factor in an avgas inferno and the heating and water systems explosions and it is the needle in a haystack.
The World Trade Center — Facts and Figures (http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/wtc/about/facts.html)

[Greatsouthernland]

Doubt it. Any idiot can "swear an affidavit". Doesn't mean at all that it is the truth or "fact". Just the ravings of a nutcase, and only given any credibility by gullible fools. ;)

I've been a gullible fool ... A few times :D I wasn't born with supreme intellect (still don't have it :alien: )

Some things (especially where the US is involved) aren't entirely convincing to me... I better not provide any examples as it may lend weight to your assertion I'm a gullible fool :D . Just don't put it in an affidavit :unsure: cos I may not be able to prove it wrong :blush:

Just thinking...:mellow: nah, was going to write on the logic of religious belief and discrediting conspiracy theories or alien existence, but that would bring up the Flying Spaghetti Monster again...better not.

[SlowRide]

Cleaned up? The building landed on and mixed with the planes wreckage.
1-200tons of plane sounds a lot, but not when it's mixed with 1,500,000 tons of concrete and steel rubble. Factor in an avgas inferno and the heating and water systems explosions and it is the needle in a haystack.
The World Trade Center — Facts and Figures (http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/wtc/about/facts.html)


So you're satisfied with your Pentagon explanation - can you use the same logic to explain away the plane that crashed into the open field in Pennsylvania? TV crews had helicopters on the scene almost instantly (before the air space was shut down), but no photographic/video evidence beyond a few tid bits and a small grass fire. No wreckage to report of, no bodies or personal effects for forensics to identify. And no heavy equipment needed for the cleanup crew.


BTW - Your supplied .gov facts and figures don't even mention the Pentagon or Pennsylvanian field crash incidents. It's just an amassment of facts akin to a Fox News screenshot. And why did they do to war with Afghanistan if the terrorists were Saudis?

As a welding engineer by trade my experience tells me a lot of the findings in regard to structural integrity to be full of holes at best, completely false at worst. Nothing about 9/11 makes sense, and i'm not sure the US Gov really know what went on... the CIA and NSA on the other hand :angrylock: For my own closure I would have expected a full and detailed independent study as opposed to a closed-door government inquiry, but we're 13 years too late for that.

[BMKal]

I've been a gullible fool ... A few times :D I wasn't born with supreme intellect (still don't have it :alien: )

Some things (especially where the US is involved) aren't entirely convincing to me... I better not provide any examples as it may lend weight to your assertion I'm a gullible fool :D . Just don't put it in an affidavit :unsure: cos I may not be able to prove it wrong :blush:

Just thinking...:mellow: nah, was going to write on the logic of religious belief and discrediting conspiracy theories or alien existence, but that would bring up the Flying Spaghetti Monster again...better not.

Never having seen a Flying Spaghetti Monster myself, I'm afraid I'm a bit of a sceptic. ;)

But these .................. I've seen 'em wiff my own eyes. :eek:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/195.jpg

And there's evidence out there that they run into things too .............

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/196.jpg

Could explain why I keep having to fork out for new brooms for SWMBO .......... :wasntme:

[Tombie]

I've seen one of them too BMKal... My Mother-In-Law rides the same model...

[Hay Ewe]

Interesting article (the link in the opening post (OP)

Having worked on narrow body Boeings (but the structure is similar and materials are the same) I am interested and this being a forum and its lunchtime, have some points to make.

Working through the artical :-

Para 1 - It would not have been physically impossible. Aircraft land at low speeds, at a lower altitude than 1000 feet above ground level

Para 2 - John Lear - so what if he is the son of Bill Lear, doesn't give him an more credibility than me.

Para 3 - If 'No Boeing 767 airlines hit the Twin Towers ... etc ' then what did?

Para 4 - I agree that the aircraft would have started 'telescoping' - just like a crumple zone on a car. The paragraph is a statement and I dont understand the relationship (in the context of the paragraph) for the steel columns.

Para 5 - Would the vertical and horizontal tail (section) have instantaneously separated? If nothing like this have ever happened before how does he know what will happen?
I don't know and I don't think it would have fallen to the ground straight away, the inertia would have kept it going into the building.

Para 6 - The engines would have maintained their general shape. This I can agree with to a point. However, many hi-bypass turbofan engines have sections within them where the temperature is hotter than what it takes for the metal to melt. (off topic for this thread) I suspect that the throttles would have been at max, and the engine would have been way over normal operating temperatures so already hot. Combined with the high fuel load, the containment of the fire (it was embedded in to the building) the temperature would have been very hot, quite hot enough melt all the material.
Aircraft are primarily made of 2024T3 and 7075T6 aluminum. I have melted it a fire quite easily.
Would they have been recovered? not necessarily.
I believe that they processed and checked and looked at almost every part of debris that came from the site. Did they find parts? who knows?

Para 7 - 540mph at 1000feet above sea level. I don't have access to the type of information that would give me an indication. I don't think the aircraft were going that fast from what I remember seeing on the TV and re-runs.
It has been years since i studied theory of flight and I don't have my book to hand.
Para 7 - bullet point 1 - fan portion of the engine, quite probably, but if the aircraft was not going that fast, this statement is null.
Para 7 - bullet point 2 - external fuselage, I don't remember seeing this or hearing that there was any. with the fire, I doubt any structure survived.
Para 7 - bullet point 3 - I don't know the structure of the building and so I cant comment. Were the steel columns on the exterior or interior? So much is dependent on the structure.

Para 8 - as was said else where, the weight of the aircraft and engines is very small compared to the estimated weight of the building, or the actual weight of debris removed.

Pare 12 - so what?

Para 13 and 14 - yes, but as was said, they received basic flight training, we don't know what other material or training aids they had access to. From memory it was a clear day and even if they didn't hit the WTC, they would still have had an effect.

I don't think we shall ever know what happened. Do we want to? How will affect me / us today? What will it change?

Hay Ewe

[vnx205]

Can't believe all the ad hominem counters here.
Sure, he has some outlandish views of some issues but he has made some concrete claims that surely, if incorrect, should be simple to refute other than by saying that he's a whacko.

There is just so much evidence that what he is saying is incorrect, that it hardly seems necessary to dredge it all up again to refute his claims.

That just leaves the question of why someone would make the claims he has. One possibility was that like Menzies and his claims about China circumnavigating the world in 1412, he might have been publishing a book in the hope of making a lot of money.

Another possibility is that he has a history of making outlandish claims that fly in the face of logic and all the available evidence.

That is the possibility that I was exploring by looking at some of his other statements.

[isuzurover]

Can't believe all the ad hominem counters here.
Sure, he has some outlandish views of some issues but he has made some concrete claims that surely, if incorrect, should be simple to refute other than by saying that he's a whacko.

Conversely, every time a thread like this comes up I can't believe how many gullible idiots there are on AULRO.



...Combined with the high fuel load, the containment of the fire (it was embedded in to the building) the temperature would have been very hot, quite hot enough melt all the material.
Aircraft are primarily made of 2024T3 and 7075T6 aluminum. I have melted it a fire quite easily.
...

To expand on this... Anyone who has ever seen a land rover after a fire should not question what happened to the plane fuselage(s). Also, anyone who has ever put an aluminium can into a camp fire will know that it turns into Al2O3 particles - about 50% in the campfire ash and 50% released into the air.


Twin Towers brought down by molten aluminum, says scientist
Posted September 21, 2011 - 21:04 by Emma Woollacott

An international materials technology conference in San Diego has been given a new explanation for the explosions heard within the Twin Towers just before their collapse.

The explosions could have been caused by a mixture of water from sprinkler systems and molten aluminium from melted aircraft hulls, and led to the buildings' collapse.

There have been widespread conspiracy theories that someone - take your pick who - had placed explosives in the buildings. The explosions had been taken by many to contradict theories that the collapse was caused by overheated steel beams.

Christian Simensen of SINTEF Materials and Chemistry believes it's overwhelmingly likely that the two aircraft were trapped inside an insulating layer of building debris within the skyscrapers.

If so, he says, it was the aircraft hulls rather than the buildings themselves that absorbed most of the heat from the burning aircraft fuel.

The heat melted the aluminium of the aircraft hulls, he says, which then flowed down through staircases and gaps in the floor. As it did, it would have encountered water - with devastating results.

"Both scientific experiments and 250 reported disasters suffered by the aluminium industry have shown that the combination of molten aluminium and water releases enormous explosions," he says.

"I regard it as extremely likely that it was these explosions that made the skyscrapers collapse by tearing out part of the internal structure, and that this caused the uppermost floors of the buildings to fall and crush the lower parts."

The official report on the causes of the collapse concluded that all three buildings - World Trade center 1,2 and 7 - was caused by heating and the failure of structural steel beams in the centre of the buildings.

"I believe that it is overwhelmingly probable that the theories regarding the cause of the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 are wrong, but that the report very likely came to the correct conclusion as regards WTC7," says Simensen.

"The federal government commission did not take sufficiently into account the fact that the aircraft brought 30 tonnes of aluminium into each of the two towers."

Alcoa Aluminium carried out an experiment under controlled conditions, in which 20 kilos of aluminium smelt were allowed to react with 20 kilos of water, to which some rust was added.

"The explosion destroyed the entire laboratory and left a crater 30 metres in diameter," says Simensen.

"Given that the amount of aluminium involved was large in comparison with the quantity of water, and since rust was probably also present, I believe that it is highly likely that the building collapsed as a result of a series of extremely energy-rich aluminium-water explosions."

Read more at http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/58596-twin-towers-brought-down-by-molten-aluminum-says-scientist#Ao611TK50mBHwyY1.99

[korg20000bc]

Conversely, every time a thread like this comes up I can't believe how many gullible idiots there are on AULRO.


Gullible idiots- Just what 90% of the world's population think about Land Rover owners in general.

The place is loaded with the ****ers.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Maybe we should merge this thread with the Vaccination thread! Then people will only have to go to a single thread for their conspiracy theories.

[sheerluck]

Isn't there one on Martin Bryant, and the conspiracy to deprive poor defenceless gun owners?

[korg20000bc]

So, is there such a thing as conspiracy fact?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So, is there such a thing as conspiracy fact?Only surpassed by a "known fact".

Known facts are such incontrovertible truths that the use of any form of scientific reference is redundant.

[sashadidi]

I found this academic paper on conspiracy theories and offer it into the discussion :eek:

Sadly we have psychology ongoing "education" at the medical group where I am working at present . ;)

Basically, conspiracy theories - the belief in an Enemy out to get you - can help you cope when you feel you have no control over your life

Text here: Perceiving oneself as having powerful enemies, although superficially disagreeable, may serve an
important psychological function. On the basis of E. Becker’s (1969) existential theorizing, the authors
argue that people attribute exaggerated influence to enemies as a means of compensating for perceptions
of reduced control over their environment. In Study 1, individuals dispositionally low in perceived
control responded to a reminder of external hazards by attributing more influence to a personal enemy.
In Study 2, a situational threat to control over external hazard strengthened participants’ belief in the
conspiratorial power of a political enemy. Examining moderators and outcomes of this process, Study 3
showed that participants were especially likely to attribute influence over life events to an enemy when
the broader social system appeared disordered, and Study 4 showed that perceiving an ambiguously
powerful enemy under conditions of control threat decreased perceptions of external risk and bolstered
feelings of personal control.

Paper here: http://people.ku.edu/~mjlandau/docs/Sullivan_enemyship_JPSP%202010.pdf

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I found this academic paper on conspiracy theories and offer it into the discussion :eek:

Sadly we have psychology ongoing "education" at the medical group where I am working at present . ;)

Basically, conspiracy theories - the belief in an Enemy out to get you - can help you cope when you feel you have no control over your life

... <snip>So what you're suggesting with these theories, is that because Americans feel so disempowered by their (democratic) political system they are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories to preserve their ego! ;)

[loanrangie]

When did Stevie Wonder work for the CIA :D.

[frantic]

So you're satisfied with your Pentagon explanation - can you use the same logic to explain away the plane that crashed into the open field in Pennsylvania? TV crews had helicopters on the scene almost instantly (before the air space was shut down), but no photographic/video evidence beyond a few tid bits and a small grass fire. No wreckage to report of, no bodies or personal effects for forensics to identify. And no heavy equipment needed for the cleanup crew.


BTW - Your supplied .gov facts and figures don't even mention the Pentagon or Pennsylvanian field crash incidents. It's just an amassment of facts akin to a Fox News screenshot. And why did they do to war with Afghanistan if the terrorists were Saudis?

As a welding engineer by trade my experience tells me a lot of the findings in regard to structural integrity to be full of holes at best, completely false at worst. Nothing about 9/11 makes sense, and i'm not sure the US Gov really know what went on... the CIA and NSA on the other hand :angrylock: For my own closure I would have expected a full and detailed independent study as opposed to a closed-door government inquiry, but we're 13 years too late for that.

The pentagon was concrete , designed as a storage facility during ww2 ,so far stronger than the world trade centres. They where designed with as little concrete as possible because of the mafia tariff per ton , so where mainly steel beams with a lot exposed after 30 years of ageing and more from a 150-180ton impact carrying 60-90 ton of fuel. Being a welder, what happens to hot steel under a small load?
Hmm which engineer to believe, a welder, or the bloke who designed it.
The bloke who designed it spoke in the documentary and stated he designed it to handle being hit by a 707, about 2/3 the size, but did not factor in the avgas fire.:eek:
If you look at later pictures they show excavators digging the engines and other parts out of the impact site. Don't worry that the u.s has an average of 6 feet of top soil, compared to our 6 inches. This means a plane going 1000k under full power is going to go into the ground compared to a plane at free fall speed which is far slower.

[Kev the Fridgy]

I've seen one of them too BMKal... My Mother-In-Law rides the same model...

They both bought them from my ex wife..... She owns the local dealership

[London Boy]

Yeh conspiracy theory stuff, but they DO NOT come any more qualified than the son of the inventor of the Lear Jet among other talents.

A sobering read, I can't believe the media and US govt would lie :eek: but if they can't convincingly argue this affidavit, then the fact will be LAW that no planes hit the towers...if so, what did? And why?

Ex-CIA Pilot Gives Sworn Testimony That No Planes Hit The Twin Towers - World Observer Online (http://worldobserveronline.com/2014/03/09/ex-cia-pilot-gives-sworn-testimony-planes-hit-twin-towers/)
No, it won't be a fact that at law that no planes hit the towers. The affidavit is meaningless except for certain bureaucratic procedures, and in court. The bureaucracy would require additional evidence, and in court an affidavit is treated just like any other piece of evidence.

Nothing is a fact in law until a court says so. And then a superior court can overrule it. And if there is no superior court then it is still only a fact in that specific jurisdiction. E.g. if a supreme court of a state makes a finding of fact a supreme court of another state can make a different finding. Unlike in Australia, the US Supreme Court is not at the apex of the legal system and there is no appeal to that court from a state supreme court.

[Rosco8]

What a wacko :p:p:p:p

I watched the 2nd plane hit on TV .. was in Coolangatta as part of .. well a management team to help out our customers at the airport as the staff were going on an abrupt holiday .. they didn't, had 2nd thoughts considering what happened .. but I thought it was a Hollywood movie at first, so realistic, was shocked when I found it was live TV !!!!

Boeing aircraft of that era still use the construction techniques developed for the Flying and Super Fortresses, so are built incredibly TOUGH, and large tanks filled with fuel and gas vapours .. argh !!!!

I was at Tucson a year later assessing Flight Planning software (right on the airport) and the mob we were with said that one floor down is where a couple were trained on sims. They said the place was swapped with FBI agents after the horrendous attack. One of the guys said he shared the urinals with one of them and he seemed quiet but normal enough .. pilot school company had told him it was strange that they focused on takeoff and cruise, not so much on landings !!! Having flown a few of our work sims (747 and 767) they are absolutely realistic and what our pilots are trained on. So I would point out, these radicals were reasonably trained with flying 767's.

So this particular guy, what an idiot :mad::mad:

[Greatsouthernland]

No, it won't be a fact that at law that no planes hit the towers. The affidavit is meaningless except for certain bureaucratic procedures, and in court. The bureaucracy would require additional evidence, and in court an affidavit is treated just like any other piece of evidence.

Nothing is a fact in law until a court says so. And then a superior court can overrule it. And if there is no superior court then it is still only a fact in that specific jurisdiction. E.g. if a supreme court of a state makes a finding of fact a supreme court of another state can make a different finding. Unlike in Australia, the US Supreme Court is not at the apex of the legal system and there is no appeal to that court from a state supreme court.

Hi your honour :D, not sure if you're in London or not, or a legal expert or not, but it is the internet, so I'm gonna play along ;) . Perhaps tell the author/America because I was just referring to this bit -

"Unlike any other form of statement, an affidavit becomes truth in law, if it is not rebutted. It will now be up to critics of the theory to present their evidence and analysis to rebut the statement point by point. If they do not – or cannot – then the US government will be obliged to admit that the account given by the 9/11 Commission is wrong."

But thanks for letting me know, others have also suggested other flaws in the story...

So are you gonna let them know they misled the world? Please, cos I'm not a lawyer and I don't think they'll listen, but they may listen to you? :cool:

Cheers London. :)

[isuzurover]

Hi your honour :D, not sure if you're in London or not, or a legal expert or not, but it is the internet, so I'm gonna play along ;) . Perhaps tell the author/America because I was just referring to this bit -

"Unlike any other form of statement, an affidavit becomes truth in law, if it is not rebutted. It will now be up to critics of the theory to present their evidence and analysis to rebut the statement point by point. If they do not – or cannot – then the US government will be obliged to admit that the account given by the 9/11 Commission is wrong."

But thanks for letting me know, others have also suggested other flaws in the story...

So are you gonna let them know they misled the world? Please, cos I'm not a lawyer and I don't think they'll listen, but they may listen to you? :cool:

Cheers London. :)

Sorry but that is a load of crap. Did you even read the wikipedia page on affadavits in the US?


United States

In American jurisprudence, under the rules for hearsay, admission of an unsupported affidavit as evidence is unusual (especially if the affiant is not available for cross-examination) with regard to material facts which may be dispositive of the matter at bar. Affidavits from persons who are dead or otherwise incapacitated, or who cannot be located or made to appear may be accepted by the court, but usually only in the presence of corroborating evidence. An affidavit which reflected a better grasp of the facts close in time to the actual events may be used to refresh a witness's recollection. Materials used to refresh recollection are admissible as evidence. If the affiant is a party in the case, the affiant's opponent may be successful in having the affidavit admitted as evidence, as statements by a party-opponent are admissible through an exception to the hearsay rule.

Affidavits are typically included in the response to interrogatories.[3][4] Requests for admissions under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 36, however, are not required to be sworn.[5][6]

Some types of motions will not be accepted by the court unless accompanied by an independent sworn statement or other evidence, in support of the need for the motion. In such a case, a court will accept an affidavit from the filing attorney in support of the motion, as certain assumptions are made, to wit: The affidavit in place of sworn testimony promotes judicial economy. The lawyer is an officer of the court and knows that a false swearing by him, if found out, could be grounds for severe penalty up to and including disbarment. The lawyer if called upon would be able to present independent and more detailed evidence to prove the facts set forth in his affidavit.

The acceptance of an affidavit by one society does not confirm its acceptance as a legal document in other jurisdictions. Equally, the acceptance that a lawyer is an officer of the court (for swearing the affidavit) is not a given. This matter is addressed by the use of the Apostille, a means of certifying the legalization of a document for international use under the terms of the 1961 Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement of Legalization for Foreign Public Documents. Documents which have been notarized by a notary public, and certain other documents, and then certified with a conformant apostille are accepted for legal use in all the nations that have signed the Hague Convention. Thus most Affidavits now require to be Apostilled if used for cross border issues.

[mox]

Remember that often governments are often largely supported by the mainstream media in promoting stories they want believed about incidents. Note how in Western countries, both have tried unsuccessfully to get more control over what is posted on the Internet. One important reason is that some of what they would like to claim is false information or conspiracy theories turns out to be right. Very embarrassing when it debunks official lies.


Note that now "psyops', ie staged incidents to promote an agenda and "false flags' where it is arranged for an atrocity to be committed for the purpose of targeting a "villain" and/or pursuing one or more agendas, they can now be readily exposed or at least official attempted explanations debunked. Look at the immediate howls claiming Russian supported rebels shot down MH17 with a missile. Western governments and media have gone very quiet about it now. A missile, which could have been fired by either side would have left a trail of smoke. There was no report of this but proof that Ukrainian fighters were close to MH17. Then photos of wreckage were released by rebels. Bits of fuselage from both sides of the cockpit were full of holes from bullets going in both directions - apparently first pointed out by a retired Lufthansa pilot. So now the "shills", ie paid government misinformation agents find it virtually impossible to blame the Russians for this atrocity.


Lately thanks to the Internet a lot of information about psyops and false flags in the past that has been largely kept hidden is now being circulated. Also, those attempting them now are overall at greater risk than ever before of being exposed.

[mox]

It is now clear that the official story of 9/11 contains lots of sanitising misinformation. Lots of details have proven wrong or at least suspect. Also, there are many theories with varying degrees of supporting evidence on details of what really happened. Seems there are several likely agendas people other than mad Arabs officially blamed would have for arranging this atrocity. Looks suspiciously like the biggest "Jewish Stocktake" in history. ie when something that is well insured happens to accidentally on purpose burn down. Apparently Larry Silverstein and associates eventually collected more in payouts than they had recently paid for buildings. Apparently these also had structural problems with rust and would eventually have cost a fortune to demolish correctly as they also contained a lot of asbestos.




However, seems the main agenda was to create some terror to promote a war on terror. An agenda especially wanted by the Zionist government of Israel and its supporters to get the USA and others fighting wars effectively on their behalf. Now seems that many decent Jews oppose its extreme actions. Note how Orthodox Jews the Neturei Karta have always opposed existence of the state of Israel, claiming it is against their religion. (See www nkusa.org )


Re where a plane supposedly crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11 but evidence suggests a missile did, what an amazing coincidence that it apparently destroyed offices where there was incriminating evidence about an enormous financial deficit.

[mox]

Isn't there one on Martin Bryant, and the conspiracy to deprive poor defenceless gun owners?



A bit off topic for this thread. However, for those interested, there is now a lot of information which anyone can now access and study starting with a Google search of eg "Port Arthur Massacre Coverup". It indicates that the PAM was planned by psychopathic anti gun activists for the purpose of pursuing their agenda and covered up with considerable cooperation of mainstream media, government and senior police. Also close scrutiny shows reveals evidence that probably the majority of mass shootings supposedly done on the sole initiative of a deranged "lone nut gunman" were arranged by others. eg Queen St, Melbourne, Dunblane Scotland and some shootings in USA.


Note the quote by author Mark Twain that "It is easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled." Also the phenomenon of "cognitive dissonance". This is basically when people have come to accept an idea so strongly that they do not want to even consider evidence showing it is wrong. These are still very applicable to the Port Arthur Massacre story. Also, note how when people run short of factual arguments to support their pet theories, they often resort to name calling and other personal abuse.


Most likely some people reading this will initially be inclined to dismiss my comments as crackpot conspiracy theories from a gun nut. Please check details for yourself. The more you study the story, the more you realise the official version contains a lot of deliberate misinformation /lies. Also that some of those who try to debunk what they claim are false conspiracy theories often lack knowledge of them and proven things that happened. Of course, many in high places have strong vested interests in keeping the truth hidden. Especially if the full truth cane out and proper legal processes followed charged could be laid. Including against then Prime Minister John Howard who interfered with proper processes for perverting the course of justice and possibly accessory after the fact of murder.


Meanwhile, Martin Bryant, who was obviously set up as a "patsy" was found guilty due to illegal "trial by media" and pressured to plead guilty to this atrocity after about 6 months of illegal solitary confinement. (Note could not have been convicted due to lack of evidence against him.) One of the worst miscarriages of justice in Australian history. Hopefully as awareness of this increases, there will be a genuine enquiry into the issue. For a start, it seems the gunman responsible for at least most of the fatal shots was the much younger Benjamin Overbeeke from South Australia. He died - supposedly suicide about six months after the PAM. Obviously among many questions that need answering are ones about the role of his father, who was around and obviously among those "in the know".

[Ferret]

Using the internet I have been able educate myself about the aliens, the CIA, the lizard men, the real activies of the catholics and the Jews and the everyday lies the western world is built upon.

I can't believe the jews were acting alone on this one and it's too big for even the Illuminati to pull off. It has all the fingerprints of the involvement of Obama, Murdoch and the alien technology they control.

Luckly, thanks to the internet the proof is so easy to find. The evidence in on ex CIA agent's blogs and websites everywhere.

;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Using the internet I have been able educate myself about...
<snip>
... Luckly, thanks to the internet the proof is so easy to find. The evidence in on ex CIA agent's blogs and websites everywhere.

;)I can only say one thing about this ex-CIA person. F22.0 Disorder: Paranoid delusional type.

[UncleHo]

One will probably find that the "PAM" was staged, by a "grey" Govt. agency, to comply with and to the UN charter to disarm the civilian population,as the UN was/is alarmed over the growing terrorism threats worldwide, and to try to counter the US, as it is written in their "Bill of Constitution" the right to own and bear arms.

[winaje]

They both bought them from my ex wife..... She owns the local dealership

So that's who my ex sells to, she's the importer...

[vnx205]

Please check details for yourself. The more you study the story, the more you realise the conspiracy theorists' versions contain a lot of deliberate misinformation /lies. Also that some of those who try to promote these conspiracy theories often lack knowledge of them and proven things that happened.

FIFY.
:)


I believe that I have read at least as many conspiracy theory sites as I have read sites that debunk conspiracy theories. Can you make that same claim in reverse?

Have you read this one for example? It seems unlikely given a couple of the statements you made about 11th September.
http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

The difference between them is generally quite marked. The conspiracy theory sites often have authors that are making money from books promoting their theory. They also tend to have unqualified people presenting half truths or outright lies. Their stock in trade is to continue to repeat, often with a cut and paste from other conspiracy sites or even their own site, information that has indisputably been shown to be incorrect.

When it comes to believing conspiracy theories, the evidence really isn't very important because a study published in 2012 found that conspiracy theorists frequently believe in multiple conspiracies, even when one conspiracy contradicts the other. For example, the study found that people who believe Osama Bin Laden was captured alive by Americans are also likely to believe that Bin Laden was actually killed prior to the 2011 raid on his home in Abottabad, Pakistan.

Wood, Michael J.; Karen M. Douglas; Robbie M. Sutton (2012-01-25). "Dead and Alive: Beliefs in Contradictory Conspiracy Theories" (PDF). Social Psychological and Personality Science. Retrieved 8 February 2012.

It is well known that the best indicator of whether someone will believe a conspiracy theory is that they believe other conspiracy theories. It is not the evidence is important to the conspiracy theorist; it is just their world view.

[Bundalene]

Never having seen a Flying Spaghetti Monster myself, I'm afraid I'm a bit of a sceptic. ;)

But these .................. I've seen 'em wiff my own eyes. :eek:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/195.jpg

And there's evidence out there that they run into things too .............

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/196.jpg

Could explain why I keep having to fork out for new brooms for SWMBO .......... :wasntme:


Be careful Brian....that last comment has you skating on thin ice mate....:D

[vnx205]

Further evidence that people believe conspiracy theories simply because they are the sort of person who believes conspiracy theories.

One particularly interesting part of the study is just how willing we are to accept these counter narratives, regardless of their familiarity or plausibility. When presented with the theory that “the U.S. government is mandating the switch to compact fluorescent light bulbs because such lights make people more obedient and easier to control,” 17 percent of people said they had heard of this conspiracy, and 10 percent agreed. There's only one problem with that: this theory was made up by the researchers. So it couldn't be a theory that anybody had actually heard before.


Read more: History, Travel, Arts, Science, People, Places | Smithsonian (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/nearly-half-americans-believe-least-one-conspiracy-theory-180950455/#fMMwXk6qvtjJ33Ge.99)
Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter

[isuzurover]

Once again I am shaking my head in disbelief at this thread...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

What gets me is that the programmers consider conspiracy theory programs are appropriate for the History Channel.

[Ferret]

And fake documentaries as facts on the Discovery Channel.

[Disco Muppet]

Team America is not fake guys, it's legit. That all really happened.

[uninformed]

Once again I am shaking my head in disbelief at this thread...

Are you saying that governments or agencies have, never in history, lied and covered up events to suit their needs?

[vnx205]

Are you saying that governments or agencies have, never in history, lied and covered up events to suit their needs?

Of course not, but the fact that governments and other agencies are sometime a bit careless with the truth does not mean that:

Elvis is still alive
Princess Diana faked her own death
Fluoride is a Communist conspiracy
Aliens regularly abduct American citizens
The moon landing was faked
Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married
The Holocaust didn't happen
The Port Arthur massacre was a Howard government conspiracy
Obama was born in Kenya
No planes hit the Twin Towers
Vaccines are a Big Pharma conspiracy
The Royal Family of the UK, along with the Bushes, the Clintons, and many other rich, prestigious families, are actually man-eating shapeshifting lizard-people from the fourth dimension.


A standard conspiracy theorist argument goes something like this:
The government lied about WMDs in Iraq , so they must be lying about (insert any crackpot theory you like).

It is typical of their understanding of the way logic works.

[mox]

[QUOTE=vnx205;2214058]Further evidence that people believe conspiracy theories simply because they are the sort of person who believes conspiracy theories. < snip>


I reckon not necessarily so. Also sometimes this name calling type of claim is made to try and discourage examination of theories which may help expose embarrassing truths. Many people recognise that what is reported in mainstream news, including viewpoints governments want believed is often at least distortion of facts and are sometimes interested in checking views from alternate sources. These are now much more readily available than in the past. Of course critical analysis is necessary, including as more information becomes available as to how credible various theories are. Remember that governments and other organisations wanting to gain acceptance of their story and debunk others that contradict it often have paid public relations "shills" peddling misinformation on their behalf. Nowadays those who detect this can often readily widely expose it.


The disappearance of Malaysian airline MH370 has so far only received attempted explanations which could all be regarded as conspiracy theories. So far no evidence of its eventual fate has been publicly revealed if known by anyone. Some I would regard as distinct possibilities and others implausible for various reasons. Keeping in mind that some people in very influential positions had good reasons to prefer that some people and some of the cargo apparently on board the plane did not arrive in Beijing. Will be interesting to see if /when someone eventually "lets the cat out of the bag"! Seems to me a lot of effort went into trying to downplay and debunk the most likely explanation. ie The plane was hijacked - possibly remotely and landed on Diego Garcia.


I have not followed details of the Sandy Hook, USA alleged massacre closely. However, it seems that with holes in the official story quickly exposed, has not taken long for it to become widely regarded as more like "Shady Hoax". With the main agenda to try and promote support for tough gun laws. Seems to me that if the same Port Arthur events occurred now, the coverup which was managed then would fail due to info circulated on Internet non mainstream news and social media. Especially with problems that occurred not having the alleged lone nut gunman supposedly commit suicide or killed in a shootout. This is one of the common features of suspected "false flag" type shootings.


A conspiracy theory that many have long held is that of "chemtrails" ie That the white trails which sometimes remain at high altitudes for long periods after being emitted by jet engines in planes are actually chemicals being secretly sprayed for devious reasons. Is often very difficult to get those with no background understanding of atmospheric physics to recognise that these consist of fine water droplets and/or ice particles. I have probably studied aspects of this more than most from operating grain dryers. Including how hot dry air after passing through wet grain comes out much cooler and sometimes super saturated with water as a fog when it mixes with cooler air outside.


Note the cynical name sometimes applied to the type of people who simply follow beliefs promoted by mainstream media and other populist sources and rarely question anything. ie "SHEEPLE". Like sheep they largely just follow a leader rather than thinking for themselves. Are also more likely to just try and condemn alternate ideas, including so called conspiracy theories rather than properly consider their merit or otherwise. Of course governments and other rulers generally prefer sheeple type obedience from their constituents.

[vnx205]

???
Was the "name calling" in my comment or in the link?

Read these articles and ask yourself if you are guilty of "anomaly hunting".
NeuroLogica Blog » Anomaly Hunting (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/anomaly-hunting/)
NeuroLogica Blog » Moon Hoax Anomaly Hunting (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/moon-hoax-anomaly-hunting/)
Psychology of A&E9/11Truth on SGU | The Psychology of Conspiracy Theories (http://conspiracypsychology.com/2012/10/07/psychology-of-ae911truth-on-sgu/)

The world is full of anomalies and unanswered questions. The reaction of a scientist is to use those anomalies as the starting point to seek further answers to better understand the complex world we live in.

The reaction of some people however is to assume that if there is an anomaly or an unanswered question then there must be a conspiracy.

[350RRC]

.............. The reaction of a scientist is to use those anomalies as the starting point to seek further answers to better understand the complex world we live in................



As the exec of a professional fisherman's association I found very often that close examination of any 'anomaly' invariably led to universal understanding of any 'problem' and a solution that was obvious to all. (i.e. Gov, greens, industry)

Anomalies are like blatant hints if your mind can accept it.

cheers, DL

[TerryO]

Once again I am shaking my head in disbelief at this thread...


X2

Very sad.

[Ferret]

...more likely to just try and condemn alternate ideas, including so called conspiracy theories rather than properly consider their merit or otherwise. Of course governments and other rulers generally prefer sheeple type obedience from their constituents.

I think people do consider them on their merit -that's why they are dismissed. Many of the so called 'alternate ideas' are so just damn funny you'd have to have a lobotomy to buy them.

Here's some evidence MH370 went to Diego Garcia (http://jimstonefreelance.com/phillipwood.html) - a text message supposedly received from a passenger on the plane.


“I have been held hostage by unknown military personal after my flight was hijacked (blindfolded). I work for IBM and I have managed to hide my cellphone in my ass during the hijack. I have been separated from the rest of the passengers and I am in a cell. My name is Philip Wood. I think I have been drugged as well and cannot think clearly.”

Lets forget he jammed his iPhone up his ass for the moment because along with the text message was a photo.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/170.jpg

Yep, that's right, it's completely black, although it would be if it was taken in a dark cell. But here is the kicker - the author claims the photo's exif data has the GPS co ords of Diego Garcia - the smoking gun, because the exif data is difficult to fake :eek:

After digital processing of the photo the author reveals the picture of the passenger 'Phillip Wood'

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/171.jpg

Yes sheeple, that's him there - and you can see enough detail now to support his claim he is being held with a bag over his head, just like the military hold their hostages. :D

I'm not thoroughly convinced myself. ;)

[Disco Muppet]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/08/169.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/DiscoMuppet/media/EEgfDOY_zpsea46b46d.jpg.html)

[SlowRide]

The two loudest camps in the 9/11 scenario are at total extremes of the information continuum - one camp has complete trust in media provision, and the other camp believes media is nothing more than a veneer of false information. And each end tries to submit each other with a most righteous informational position. Egotistical hen pecking.

I personally don’t have complete faith in either extreme. But based on 2002 media speculation, one end of the spectrum totally bought into the scenario Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and the opposing political viewpoint was overrun. Only after this significant non-truth did 9/11 conspiracy theory enter the building.

The reality is none of us know exactly what happened. We’re all operating on (at best) third hand information, and we’re all hedging our bets on the most psychologically alluring scenario. But let’s be real - outspokenness doesn’t equal informational correctness.

[mox]

Re the supposed story regarding Philip Wood sending a phone message from Diego Garcia: Remember a tactic shills can use is peddle a tall story which supports a maybe correct conspiracy theory and then debunk this story to try and discredit and draw attention away from the whole theory.

[sheerluck]

Re the supposed story regarding Philip Wood sending a phone message from Diego Garcia: Remember a tactic shills can use is peddle a tall story which supports a maybe correct conspiracy theory and then debunk this story to try and discredit and draw attention away from the whole theory.

And some of the tactics that a conspiracy nut uses is that regardless of something looking like a duck, quacking like a duck and waddling like a duck, they will insist that the duck is not a duck but a government trained eagle in disguise.

Remember that governments are massively inefficient. They can barely organise the building of a road that doesn't fall apart in 5 minutes, let alone half of the junk they are accused of organising.

[Greatsouthernland]

Of course not, but the fact that governments and other agencies are sometime a bit careless with the truth does not mean that:

Elvis is irrelevant
Princess Diana doesn't deserve to be associated with my opinions on freedom of thought
Fluoride is a by-product of nuclear power production
Aliens are simply alien
The moon landing was an amazing feat of engineering and beyond some peoples comprehension, but hardly a conspiracy
Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married or not, who cares unless you believe in supreme beings and are offended by the comment/possibility and want to make it a conspiracy
The Holocaust didn't happen :eek: powerful politically disrespectful distraction alert :cool:
The Port Arthur massacre was a Howard government conspiracy or more likely they were unaware that their gullibility and subservience to the UN :o allowed the staging to play out in the favour of the conspirators :D
Obama was born in Kenya, who cares :eek:
No planes hit the Twin Towers, but missiles that had skins like planes could have, but oh no, if it LOOKS LIKE A PLANE IT MUST BE A PLANE - see gullible :o
Vaccines are a Big Pharma conspiracy, well they do make a lot of money, they don't stop cancer, Ebola, aids, MS, Alzheimer, but I'm still grateful for the ones we have and don't think they belong in this list :p
The Royal Family of the UK, along with the Bushes, the Clintons, and many other rich, prestigious families, could be up to anything or nothing and to suppose otherwise flies in the face of rationality... but can make you look silly if it sounds childish.


A standard conspiracy theorist argument goes something like this:
The government lied about WMDs in Iraq , so they must be lying about (insert any crackpot theory you like, as I did but probably overdid it and with no relevance to the subject, this is a trick to distract anyone who may be thinking about thinking for themselves - the government won't lie to you, media won't risk losing by contradicting the government anymore, drink coca-cola).

It is typical of their understanding of the way logic works.

So they did lie about WMDs and were caught out? OMG, that disproves every point you tried to make :D:D

Interesting, because this was a "conspiracy" theory before it got legs through repeated questioning over what WMDs.

Gullibility - the contentment in absorbing all news and government dogma via the media, until it is disproved by ....the media.

None of this is conspiracy theory, its just different opinions to what the "mainstream" media tells you to believe. Then they encourage you to call those that want to do their own research ( as they are awake to the fact they've been conned before) whacko conspiracy theorists.

By all means have your opinions, please don't insult those that would like to think for themselves, that understand you can't get the full story on the news before the all important footy cores and upcoming game plans need to be aired :D .

At least that's what Elvis told me yesterday :D Did you know he was a Jew? (settle petal, that was an insensitive joke... he was probably a Muslim, but either way you'd say it was a conspiracy theory if you believed he was catholic. I'll ask him when I see him tomorrow.

[Greatsouthernland]

Once again I am shaking my head in disbelief at this thread...

Me too, as well as the need to write about it :p

[Greatsouthernland]

X2

Very sad.

Well stop reading it and be happy (or still sad if it wasn't the amazing power of this thread that really made you sad).

:( ---> :)

[Greatsouthernland]

...

The reality is none of us know exactly what happened. We’re all operating on (at best) third hand information, and we’re all hedging our bets on the most psychologically alluring scenario. But let’s be real - outspokenness doesn’t equal informational correctness.

Amen brother! Or Allah akbahr! Or lets eat (pastafarianism :) )

[Greatsouthernland]

And some of the tactics that a conspiracy nut uses is that regardless of something looking like a duck, quacking like a duck and waddling like a duck, they will insist that the duck is not a duck but a government trained eagle in disguise.

Remember that governments are massively inefficient. They can barely organise the building of a road that doesn't fall apart in 5 minutes, let alone half of the junk they are accused of organising.

I have seen this "duck like" eagle! They know that I know, now they know that you know. :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmH2J9-50Gc

[TerryO]

Well stop reading it and be happy (or still sad if it wasn't the amazing power of this thread that really made you sad).

:( ---> :)


I didn't say I'm sad, when it comes to my feelings about this I actually find it offensive that the memory of so many innocently killed individuals can be questioned by conspiracy nongs.
My comment was saying that people who repeat and or believe this mindless rubbish are sad, as in its very sad that supposedly educated people can believe this stuff.

Surely there must be specialised forums where all the crazy conspiracy type people get together, hold hands, sing songs and tell story's of evil despotic governments plotting to and actually killing thousands of their own people while blaming some poor minority innocent terrorist group?

Because if there is then I believe that is the place for this rubbish, not here.

[Greatsouthernland]

I didn't say I'm sad, when it comes to my feelings about it I actually find it offensive that the memory of so many innocently killed individuals can be questioned by conspiracy nongs.
My comment was saying that people who repeat and or believe this mindless rubbish are sad, as in its very sad that supposedly educated people can believe this stuff.

Surely there must be specialised forums where all the crazy conspiracy type people get together, hold hands, sing songs and tell story's of evil despotic governments plotting to and actually killing thousands of their own people while blaming some poor minority innocent terrorist group?

Because if there is then I believe that is the place for this rubbish, not here.

Whilst I admit I regret posting the LINK, I DID acknowledge the senseless loss of innocent lives and must add that talking about an event either positively or negatively, does not discredit the "innocent" victims.

If you were to attempt to discredit this thread for the above reason, then you fail to accept that the civilian lives lost in Iraq over deception regarding WMDs didn't prevent discussion and that discussion uncovered a "conspiracy to deceive".

Surely you can have an opinion, but isn't it inappropriate to belittle those who have a different opinion?

How did you belittle?



I actually find it offensive that the memory of so many innocently killed individuals can be questioned by conspiracy nongs.
...people who repeat and or believe this mindless rubbish are sad... its very sad that supposedly educated people can believe this stuff.

...crazy conspiracy type people get together, hold hands, sing songs... poor minority innocent terrorist group


I think it's been said before - attack the subject, not the posters. There are more controversial threads on Aulro than this, there are also other sites (and countries) where you can exercise your will to censor discussion you dislike :(

After all this doesn't criticise track days does it, no conspiracy there. One day I hope to attend a track day, hopefully racing enthusiasts can have different views on world events, irrespective of whether they involve the tragic loss of innocent life, just like road trauma and racing, I don't like hearing people say racing is dangerous and encourages unsafe behaviour, but I wouldn't go on a rant about it calling people like them nongs etc. :angel:

PS you suggest (perhaps seriously) another place for these "types" of discussions, how about - "constructive discussion of events and their controversial explanation by military, government and media" for those that have the mental capacity to reason".

[TerryO]

I don't think you get it, your post and then your replies and a number of those by others trying to defend it are not only offensive to those who died but their families who are still alive and carry this burden every day.

Every time rubbish like this is repeated on social media it potentially opens a deep wound that the many thousands of families and friends of those who died in this crime will carry with them for the rest of their lives.

If you found my comment about being a nong belittling just imagine how those left behind would fine your comments if they were unfortunate to find this thread one day?

Trolling is fine if that was your intent but how about picking a subject that just stirs people up not insults the victims and the families of a horrendous crime against humanity.

[Greatsouthernland]

I don't think you get it, your post and then your replies and a number of those by others trying to defend it are not only offensive to those who died but their families who are still alive and carry this burden every day.

Every time rubbish like this is repeated on social media it potentially opens a deep wound that the many thousands of families and friends of those who died in this crime will carry with them for the rest of their lives.

If you found my comment about being a nong belittling just imagine how those left behind would fine your comments if they were unfortunate to find this thread one day?

Trolling is fine if that was your intent but how about picking a subject that just stirs people up not insults the victims and the families of a horrendous crime against humanity.

Terry, you don't get it.

You're acting as a censor. If you think I'm trolling then report it (because I will be reporting your false allegation), but as a mod I'm sure you'll attempt to get the last word.

You still want to attack me and not the content. I said I regret posting it but you keep going, if that makes "ME" the troll, then we have a different definition.

Good luck, I'm over your targeted attacks. :angel:

PS I suppose saying that the Vietnam war was wrong is unacceptable because it 'opens a deep wound'? Absolute and utter crap as a poor attempt to retort. :angel:
You forgot that you don't like being stirred up, you stirred those with potential turbo failing, then someone stirred you back about your V8 needing more torque, I posted that it was funny and you spat the dummy. But time heals all wounds (or not?) maybe that's the conspiracy here?

[Tombie]

I don't think you get it, your post and then your replies and a number of those by others trying to defend it are not only offensive to those who died but their families who are still alive and carry this burden every day.

Every time rubbish like this is repeated on social media it potentially opens a deep wound that the many thousands of families and friends of those who died in this crime will carry with them for the rest of their lives.

If you found my comment about being a nong belittling just imagine how those left behind would fine your comments if they were unfortunate to find this thread one day?

Trolling is fine if that was your intent but how about picking a subject that just stirs people up not insults the victims and the families of a horrendous crime against humanity.

Terry... Starting to present a contradiction now...

D-Day... Celebrated recently... Involved carpet bombing of entire civilian populations...

How do you think that one plays out?

[TerryO]

Terry... Starting to present a contradiction now...

D-Day... Celebrated recently... Involved carpet bombing of entire civilian populations...

How do you think that one plays out?


Where is the contradiction by me? I have made no comment about D-Day or any other war in this or any other thread that I can remember.

Tombie, If you think it is right to compare what the allies did trying to end a long protracted war that they did not start against a despote who wanted world domination and who commited genocide against millions of innocent people just because of their ethnic back ground with the actions of the terrorists flying hijacked civilian planes into buildings packed with innocent people who weren't at war then that is your choice. No war is ever good or fair nor is any side always right in what they do, but personally I would not make such a comparision between the actions of the allies in WW2 and what the terrorist hijackers who flew those planes packed with people into the Twin Towers of the World Square did.

[Tombie]

Every war is over a belief of some sort, be it land, materials or belief.

Crusades, Inquisitions, Jihad, Terror.

Rightly or wrongly, people questioning the status quo are necessary to maintain the balance and hopefully truth - the second victim after innocence.

Questioning how an event was executed (any event I'm not entering into that part) is good. Blatantly towing the party line isn't.

Calling people on their beliefs names is simply not conducive to any discussion.

Plenty of people believe in a supreme being - yet plenty of evidence points to the contrary.

Are they all nongs?

[Tombie]

Also, if the actions of killing thousands of innocent people in WW2 was a "means to an end" - then what is to say that it couldn't be a "means to a beginning"?

It certainly got the US citizens in the mood for a war...

Did terrorists do this? Or was there an economic power looking for a solution? These are the questions these nongs are asking...

Rightly or wrongly, I doubt any mean any disrespect to the fallen.

[frantic]

Problem is they are not asking, just repeating the same line. Zionist/govt/alien conspiracy, no plane, etc.
Ignoring simple facts like hot steel bends, oil burns, water superheated explodes.
Other facts like Citibank had both their main and backup mainframes in trade centre 1 and 2 and suffered badly because of it.
More simple facts that a plane gliding goes about 200-250kph when all 4 engines fail depending upon angle etc under full power you looking at 1000-1250kph. Hit the ground gliding and the plane breaks up, hit it nose first , it digs a hole.

[vnx205]

Conspiracy theorist pride themselves on being able to spot one or two anomalies or unanswered questions in the official version of events.

If they are really so perceptive, why are they quite unable to see that their version of events has a great many more anomalies and leave dozens or often hundreds of questions unanswered?

If they believe that asking questions is important, why do they never question the claims made on sites that promote conspiracies?

[Ferret]

... why do they never question the claims made on sites that promote conspiracies?

I think that was answered earlier by one of the posters.

When you show them some claims on conspiracy sites are stupid they respond by saying those claims are made by shills to discredit the theory, to divert attention from what could be the truth.

By extension, since someone has an interest in planting false claims to cause doubt and confusion about what could be the truth then there must be some truth to the conspiracy theory because why else would these tactics be employed.



.... Remember a tactic shills can use is peddle a tall story which supports a maybe correct conspiracy theory and then debunk this story to try and discredit and draw attention away from the whole theory.

[Leigh 110]

Interesting thread..........

On a lighter note


So that's who my ex sells to, she's the importer...

My mother-inlaw has broken down and needs a new broom!:wasntme:

[winaje]

I'll send you the details, she sells in bulk, in case they break down from excess load

Lol

[TerryO]

Every war is over a belief of some sort, be it land, materials or belief.

Crusades, Inquisitions, Jihad, Terror.

Rightly or wrongly, people questioning the status quo are necessary to maintain the balance and hopefully truth - the second victim after innocence.

Questioning how an event was executed (any event I'm not entering into that part) is good. Blatantly towing the party line isn't.

Calling people on their beliefs names is simply not conducive to any discussion.

Plenty of people believe in a supreme being - yet plenty of evidence points to the contrary.

Are they all nongs?


Tombie if the shoe fits then wear it.

[Hoges]

Yeh conspiracy theory stuff, but they DO NOT come any more qualified than the son of the inventor of the Lear Jet among other talents.

A sobering read, I can't believe the media and US govt would lie :eek: but if they can't convincingly argue this affidavit, then the fact will be LAW that no planes hit the towers...if so, what did? And why?

Ex-CIA Pilot Gives Sworn Testimony That No Planes Hit The Twin Towers - World Observer Online (http://worldobserveronline.com/2014/03/09/ex-cia-pilot-gives-sworn-testimony-planes-hit-twin-towers/)

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::bangin::soapbox: :rocket: :ttiwwp:

[e3j]

Sure except that hundreds of eyewitnesses saw it live and millions saw the second plane hitting on live TV.

The scale of a conspiracy that could have set all that up is staggering.

But what if the planes were flown by experienced pilots?

[JDNSW]

But what if the planes were flown by experienced pilots?

No way of telling - as demonstrated on Mythbusters last night, it is possible for a completely inexperienced non pilot, given a small amount of coaching by radio, to fly a modern airliner and even successfully land it. Given that the hijackers had documented pilot training, there is no reason to suppose that the attacks needed experienced pilots.

John

[windsock]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1656.jpg

[frantic]

But what if the planes were flown by experienced pilots?

So now there where planes ?
At least try and keep the conspiracy theory consistant:twisted:
Myth busters just had a top 25 on sbs and one of those was a ford festiva being hit by a rocket sled at the speed of sound, it vaporised in slow motion, digging into the concrete wall and earthworks. Maybe 2-5 ton hitting solid concrete, with a festiva in the middle, now think about 150 ton hitting soft topsoil at a similar speed.
The next one was at 500mph or about 800 kph where the sled cut a car in half perfectly.

[Greatsouthernland]

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::bangin::soapbox: :rocket: :ttiwwp:

Careful Hoges (Paul, is that you?) that may be trolling ... :imwithstupid: :rolleyes:

[Greatsouthernland]

Tombie if a shoe fits then wear it.

I've got a size 14 steel cap boot, and I know where it'll fit :o :cool:

[singlecell]

83144

Sent from my Nexus 5 using AULRO mobile app

[sheerluck]

I've got a size 14 steel cap boot, and I know where it'll fit :o :cool:

On.....your.......foot? I believe that is traditional.

[Greatsouthernland]

On.....your.......foot? I believe that is traditional.

Umm yeh, sure :angel:

[Greatsouthernland]

But what if the planes were flown by experienced pilots?

Or remote control...

[Greatsouthernland]

83144

Sent from my Nexus 5 using AULRO mobile app

...choose to stay at Holiday Inn parks and hotels.

[incisor]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Lotz-A-Landies]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
South Park: Episode 9/10 (148) "Mystery of the Urinal Deuce"

the government really is behind 9/11.
Bush himself demonstrates the incredibly convoluted method of how they pulled the attacks off and after doing so, he murders the conspiracy leader and decides to kill Stan and Kyle as well, to conceal the conspiracy.

With all the garbage in this thread, South Park is a just as much valid source of the truth as anything!

[TerryO]

On.....your.......foot? I believe that is traditional.

No need to worry about old mate and his size 14 steel caps Sheerluck, first off to be able to put the boot on his foot he would have to take said foot out of mouth. ... :angel:

and given the daft things being said that's not happening anytime soon. ... :p

[Greatsouthernland]

No need to worry about old mate and his size 14 steel caps Sheerluck, first off to be able to put the boot on his foot he would have to take said foot out of mouth. ... :angel:

and given the daft things being said that's not happening anytime soon. ... :p

Yeh mate, its the cowards that bully others when they are unable to think for themselves,:D I see it in our kids' schools, unfortunately some don't grow up to let others talk and resort to put downs.:(

Some of these kids mature, others such as in this case retain a lot of self doubt and regret at being slow on the uptake or failing to understand the conversation, so they attack the speaker. :angel:

Starting to display some Narcissistic traits old mate...:twisted:

It seems I'm being trolled.....:eek:

[Greatsouthernland]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Well after following a few threads from the original, the questions she was going to ask were:

President George W. Bush: As Commander-in-Chief on the morning of 9/11, why didn’t you return immediately to Washington, D.C. or the National Military Command Center once you became aware that America was under attack? At specifically what time did you become aware that America was under attack? Who informed you of this fact?

Vice President Richard Cheney: Please discuss the advice and plans of the Energy Advisory Council specifically as they relate to pipeline development and gas/oil exploration in Afghanistan, Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries, and the feasibility of such development or exploration specifically in those two countries in 2001.

Condoleezza Rice: Regarding the meeting of Abdullah Abdullah (close aide to Massoud and now the Afghan Foreign Minister) in July , 2001, with “some top National Security Council (NSC) and State Department officials,” what information about al Qaeda did he convey?

George Tenet, Director of the CIA: Why didn't the CIA share vital information about the terrorists with the FBI?

Robert Mueller, FBI Director: Which hijackers have been positively identified by DNA? Is the FBI in possession of DNA samples for all of the hijackers?

Questions for Director Mueller Regarding the Hijackers: Please explain how the passports of Mohammed Atta and Satam al-Sugam, both on Flight 11, survived the inferno to be found on the street near the World Trade Center.

•Who found the passports and what time where they found?

•Please describe the condition of each passport.

•Please explain how the passports of two hijackers survived the explosion and inferno.

(removed assassination plot, agree with you muppet, a bit far fetched even for me, I never was much of a conspiracy theorist, I still dont consider this a conspiracy, just another pearl harbour type of event that justifies entry into another war and the spoils that follow).

[Tombie]

I've got a size 14 steel cap boot, and I know where it'll fit :o :cool:


On your size 14 foot I'm guessing :)

[Greatsouthernland]

On your size 14 foot I'm guessing :)

Yeh mate :D Id be silly :angel: to put it anywhere else...What was I thinking? :cool: I Love my Blue Steels :)

[Tombie]

Yeh mate :D Id be silly :angel: to put it anywhere else...What was I thinking? :cool: I Love my Blue Steels :)


Not a bad boot... Personally a fan of Olivers and their better Arch support :D

[Greatsouthernland]

Not a bad boot... Personally a fan of Olivers and their better Arch support :D

agreed, I also rate the Olivers. Comfort cushion it is called on their conspiracy page...

[Greatsouthernland]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/03/1009_in_custody.jpg
South Park: Episode 9/10 (148) "Mystery of the Urinal Deuce"

Bush himself demonstrates the incredibly convoluted method of how they pulled the attacks off and after doing so, he murders the conspiracy leader and decides to kill Stan and Kyle as well, to conceal the conspiracy.

With all the garbage in this thread, South Park is a just as much valid source of the truth as anything!

and this...


911 Conspiracy on South Park - YouTube

dont knock the journalistic integrity of south park, they operate outside the law :cool: Kyle did it!

[Disco Muppet]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1926829_806825846005355_2924406419119068659_n.jpg? oh=72fd2c713849bf9a47071e1ba9387598&oe=5469DB1B&__gda__=1417420882_6fb4e6983a35b5b01415dab0b6054ba 5

Erm...
Well...
Yes, she died a week after meeting Obama.
NOWHERE I looked, even the nutter 'zionist new world order conspiracy' nutjob sites mentioned that he gave her the tickets, gave her a discount on them, suggested she book them on a certain website, even suggested she go on the place through evil crab people mind powers...
GSL, whilst I'd like to see the questions directly asked of the individuals answered, purely because I'm interested in the replies, the rest of that is utter bollocks.
The FSB said so, did they? :angel:

[incisor]

click click click....

[Disco Muppet]

click click click....

go the detonators Achmed?
Or is it a case of look like crab, talk like people :D

[TerryO]

Its always interesting to see the fish one can catch without a hook Muppet. .... ;)

And in this case it wasn't you doing the fishing.

[incisor]

go the detonators Achmed?
Or is it a case of look like crab, talk like people :D

Achmed the Dead Terrorist Has a Son - Jeff Dunham - Controlled Chaos - YouTube

[Disco Muppet]

Hooks taste better :( :D
Interestingly, I googled 'conspiracy club' and found this site...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1498.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/DiscoMuppet/media/Picture1_zps100acd39.png.html)

'Club Conspiracy Singles' and 'What I did to resist today' are my personal favourites :lol2:

Inc, I prefer Jingle Bombs :p

[Greatsouthernland]

Erm...

GSL, whilst I'd like to see the questions directly asked of the individuals answered, purely because I'm interested in the replies, the rest of that is utter bollocks.
The FSB said so, did they? :angel:

Agree, it (probably) goes too far ;) Ive removed it, must admit I only glanced at it as I copied the questions hastily...

All of the opinions aside, this is not really a conspiracy theory (sorry to those that dismiss it as such, you were distracted) , its so weird that the world's strongest most advanced super power had these events happen the way they did. If its as simple as some crazy jihadists getting away with the scale of this, then America with all of its space domination and high tech computer surveillance gadgets, was REALLY asleep on the job of defence...even the Mexicans could have all driven their pickups across the border on that watch leading up to the events :(

It would be better for the reputation of the US if the govt was assisting, like Pearl Harbour :angel: the current view makes them look like the key stone cops of national defence and surveillance :eek:

[Greatsouthernland]

Is it a greater conspiracy to silence intelligent inquiry?

Accepting the video image and accepting it may have been planes, the attached article is worth the read...if you can handle the truth :D

A summary: From the attached pdf

"Final Words
The events of September 11, 2001 were not acts of foreign terrorism. That simple fact is apparent from understanding the common definitions of the word. Furthermore, no event of any kind has occurred in the U.S. since then that can be described as foreign terrorism. So there is no substantiation for the federal government to implement measures to counter non-existent foreign terrorist events. On September 11, 2001 terrorism was defined generally, legally, statutorily and by law enforcement agencies as an action involving two prongs: 1) an action intended to affect political policies, 2) by people associated with a group. Neither the nineteen alleged hijackers, Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida, nor any known Islamic group or country meets the first prong – because none of them exerted any pressure or made any political demands on the U.S. government related to the events of September 11th. Consequently, the events of September 11th do not meet any of the four different types of definitions describing what could be considered an act of foreign terrorism. Which means that even if it were eventually proven that Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida, or any other foreign group or country was involved in September 11th, they could only be alleged to have committed crimes. There is simply no definitional basis to legitimately characterize those events as foreign terrorism, and the well orchestrated multi-pronged political and media campaign to do so is one of the greatest frauds ever attempted by a government in the history of the world. Although the acts themselves weren’t foreign terrorism, that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been terrorism related to September 11th. The Oxford English Dictionary clearly shows that beginning minutes after the first event on September 11th, the actions of innumerable federal and state politicians and agencies perfectly met the definition of people and groups engaging in terrorist activities in the promotion of terrorism against the American people. Those people and organizations associated with federal and state governments began working overtime to “spread a feeling of terror or alarm,” in order to influence the thinking of Americans, judges and reluctant public officials about proposed legislation, and the way that existing legislation should be executed. The etymological roots of terrorism reveal the federal governments is engaging in terrorism by using the events of September 11th to encourage a feeling of terror and apprehension in Americans about their safety as a device to generate support for its political policies, legislative "
... Given the degree of disinformation dispensed by the federal government about the Pentagon explosion, and the circumstances of the planes that crashed into the twin WTC towers and their subsequent collapse, the disassociation between the concern for preventing a reoccurrence of those events and the UPACT and the HSA is predictable. The dissemination of disinformation about the events of September 11th by the media is predictable given the federal government’s penchant for dispensing untruthful information to domestic and foreign media sources. 117 Since September 11th the federal government has relied on the principle of political policy attributed to Adolf Hitler, “The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.” Yet not even the Nazi’s attempted to foist a lie on the German people as mammoth as the federal government’s preposterous tale that a Boeing 757-200 crashed into the Pentagon at 9:38 am on September 11, 2001. Convincing many tens of millions of people to accept the myth that the events of September 11, 2001 were foreign terrorism has depended on bastardization of the English language that George Orwell warned about in his 1945 essay, Politics and the English Language. As would be expected from employment of such tactics of gross deception, the perpetration of that fantasy has done nothing to improve the lives of Americans..."
:

[frantic]

Sorry, still wiping the dribble off my phone from that article.
So we've gone from a "ex-CIA " drug tester claiming no planes to another claim that the planes where Govt flown and pearl harbour was on purpose? :mad:
Arrogance was the cause of pearl harbour not being ready, ditto 911, ditto subs in Sydney in ww2.
This is getting more stupid every post.

[Greatsouthernland]

Sorry, still wiping the dribble off my phone from that article.
So we've gone from a "ex-CIA " drug tester claiming no planes to another claim that the planes where Govt flown and pearl harbour was on purpose? :mad:
Arrogance was the cause of pearl harbour not being ready, ditto 911, ditto subs in Sydney in ww2.
This is getting more stupid every post.

Hello Frantic,

Thanks for your comment, you should try a bib :p sorry couldn't resist, you painted the picture :angel:

Whilst I dont lose any sleep over this or other so called conspiracy theories, I'm just posting what I think, and I'm not saying your opinion is right or wrong or subject preference is getting more stupid every time you/someone posts.

I actually stumbled across it from the same site that published the acquittal of the radiographer from Roebourne as being a miscarriage of justice (well slightly 2:1 or 66% vs 33% , but AMA peers' verdict stands). The site promotes (through the attached) a wide range of such false allegations (they claim, not me ;) ), the Germany one was particularly interesting, I'll find it for you ;) ...

Articles written by Hans Sherrer concerning illusions or falsehoods or misjustices perpetrated by the government (http://forejustice.org/write/write.htm)

Anyway, none of us mere Landrover owners know what happened in 911 or WW2, that includes you and I, so probably not wise to call anything stupid other than what you see on TV and in the papers or pushed by politicians for that matter, let alone those with family oil businesses :ph34r:

But each to their own, and its clear that you think its all rubbish. For the record, I don't have an opinion yet, Im still open to anything that may be revealed over time.

As for Pearl Harbour, I'd ask why the complacency, information on Jap threat not passed on perhaps, in hindsight it saved our country, but just one of the senseless losses of live during the whole event. RIP all who suffered, on all sides.

Just sayin :cool: not necessarily believing, if you understand ;)

[TerryO]

Don't feed the troll.

[Greatsouthernland]

Don't feed the troll - I am the boss so do as I say, if I don't know what constitutes trolling and end up doing it myself while accusing someone else falsely, that's my choice, as I am a mod or god, sometimes I get confused....

Sticks and stones etc. :p

Really Tezza, if you've got nothing to add, why would you :eek: ... BECAUSE YOU ARE THE TROLL!!! AND EVEN WORSE, A STALKER.

You've stalked me since you developed twin turbo envy, Man up and get over it, no one likes a sore loser.

And stop hijacking this thread, you can rest assured your Dads Army and MASH research, with a bit of Get Smart and Fox news, has been enough to substantiate your opinion on the subject. Intelligent discussion is perhaps (as evidenced) not your forte, maybe stick to the slow and ugly GSXRs :wheelchair: and leave thinking to others more qualified, (not saying that I am necessarily).

Oh yeh, stop the creepy stalking, you are supposed to be a moderator, not agitator.....doing both makes you look like a hypocrite to me. ;) :rolleyes:

[London Boy]

Hi your honour :D, not sure if you're in London or not, or a legal expert or not, but it is the internet, so I'm gonna play along ;) . Perhaps tell the author/America because I was just referring to this bit -

"Unlike any other form of statement, an affidavit becomes truth in law, if it is not rebutted. It will now be up to critics of the theory to present their evidence and analysis to rebut the statement point by point. If they do not – or cannot – then the US government will be obliged to admit that the account given by the 9/11 Commission is wrong."
Only just saw this, thought I should reply.

No, not in London. Got a degree in it if that helps. And re the other bit, there's even some legal doubt as to whether a jury's verdict is truth or just their opinion. An affidavit is just a sworn statement, so the only truth it discloses is the belief of the person swearing it. Until a court gets a hold of it, that's as far as it goes.

[Greatsouthernland]

Only just saw this, thought I should reply.

No, not in London. Got a degree in it if that helps. And re the other bit, there's even some legal doubt as to whether a jury's verdict is truth or just their opinion. An affidavit is just a sworn statement, so the only truth it discloses is the belief of the person swearing it. Until a court gets a hold of it, that's as far as it goes.

Thanks London Boy.

From my limited (and unqualified) knowledge of American law, gained from Perry Mason & judge Judy :D, I'm going to take your comment as suggesting the author of the attachment/link at the beginning of this 'controversial' thread, hasn't done their research. Or the editor has failed to do due diligence before publishing.

Also thanks for feeding even though I'm not a troll ;) ... maybe he meant doll :wub::thumbsdown::blush::spudnikdaddyo:

[ramblingboy42]

heres Perry Mason
http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3OY 04AsbNEs&ei=3m4WVJ3EFcT98QWsrIAo&usg=AFQjCNFDNDCF5aV9JP1vFFmUMyGkk9vPHA&sig2=AVEEFJ4V0PpBslJIxUnaWw&bvm=bv.75097201,d.dGc

[Greatsouthernland]

heres Perry Mason
http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3OY 04AsbNEs&ei=3m4WVJ3EFcT98QWsrIAo&usg=AFQjCNFDNDCF5aV9JP1vFFmUMyGkk9vPHA&sig2=AVEEFJ4V0PpBslJIxUnaWw&bvm=bv.75097201,d.dGc

Thanks for the tune...but I meant this one :D Perry Mason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Mason)

Hey Rambling, I got to 1:40 and had to stop, not my thing.

But I reckon if you play it backwards it will tell us something...probably what cocktail Ozzy takes before his shows :no2:

Oh, and thanks for feeding, thought I was gonna starve here for a while ...

:beer::cry::spudniklifter::spudnikbackflip: :spudnikparty::spudnikconfounded:

[ramblingboy42]

sacriledge......stopping at 1:40

[Greatsouthernland]

sacriledge......stopping at 1:40

Sorry...:D maybe I should try again after a couple of bourbons ;)

[TerryO]

Not such a good idea to mix bourbon and strong prescription medication.

[Greatsouthernland]

Not such a good thing to mix bourbon and strong prescription medication.

What happened last time you did this? :D

Thanks for the advice troll, but I don't do drugs, that's your choice and I'm not telling you how to live your life :p just be aware your personality may improve if you stop :p

Edit: In no way do my comments belittle those unfortunate enough to be dealing with "the black dog" or depression. As R U Ok day was quite recent, I think it's important to accept there is a large portion of our community who are or will be faced with depression - prescription drugs (and not alcohol), with support from a doctor, friends and family, and all of us, should be unconditionally embraced.

[bob10]

Ok, so , what is this thread about? I'm confused. And waiting for the attack . Bob

[vnx205]

Ok, so , what is this thread about? I'm confused. And waiting for the attack . Bob

I'm confused too.

Do you mean an attack by terrorists in aircraft, an attack by the CIA, an attack by trolls, or an attack by people who still have a good supply of popcorn handy and are enjoying the entertainment and don't want it to end?

[Greatsouthernland]

Ok, so , what is this thread about? I'm confused. And waiting for the attack . Bob

Fair question Bob.

My intention, as I started this thread, was to share what I came across in the usual bombardment of internet news headlines, in the appropriately named general chat section. With all the hysteria surrounding terrorism and the impact it has had on the way some people, particularly the Americans and soon to be us with data collection laws, go about their daily lives, the article struck me as intriguing and I was interested in other opinions.

I posted it with no deep seated belief in all or any of the details, but more in awe/disbelief of the statement (as you can see from the emoticon thus :o in my original post). As the comments came back it seems that there may be a history here of established views on any posting of an expression of opinion that challenges 'common' sense or previous recordings of events.

Some members prejudged my opinion and attacked what they thought were my personal beliefs without thinking that I may just be seeking rational dissection of the key elements behind the headline, which in actual fact was the intent. This in itself while inconsiderate and in some cases vindictive including association with some clearly irrelevant themes, was surprising for me considering the calibre of some members whom I considered of above average intelligence and rationality.

Of course this rhetorical labelling then began to occur between other members, and degenerated into communication from some people resembling that of fanatical religious ideologists albeit in terms of simply attacking anyone with opposing views, often without any justifiable position other than a conviction of blind faith.

The penultimate real conspiracy manifested when a mod (TerryO) with an axe to grind about V8 petrols versus twin turbo V6 diesels (all I can think of as no other prior conversations exist) in an earlier non associated thread, labelled the OP a few juvenile terms culminating in the term 'troll'.

Since then, and despite what looks like a balanced opinion (in this thread at least) on the possibility that there is more to the 911 incidents than what has been revealed to the public, there are some who'd rather play the man instead of the ball - or attack the person behind the post instead of the article in the post.

I'm OK with this outcome, as we all need to take some responsibility for what we post, even though I don't agree with all of it (the article in 1st post) and actually take into consideration some opposing views and revelations of the subject's state of mind. As to where it goes from here, I don't know. As for the labelling of myself as a troll, well in a perfect world that individual would admit fault and apologise, but I wont hold my breath :) nor lose sleep on it, we all have different moral codes.

FWIW I did report the offending post, there was no feedback. So it seems all is above board in terms of acceptable personal attacks and intimidation, not that I support such behaviour, but I'll counter any poor form while I'm not too busy with other tasks...

[bob10]

Fair question Bob.

My intention, as I started this thread, was to share what I came across in the usual bombardment of internet news headlines, in the appropriately named general chat section. With all the hysteria surrounding terrorism and the impact it has had on the way some people, particularly the Americans and soon to be us with data collection laws, go about their daily lives, the article struck me as intriguing and I was interested in other opinions.

I posted it with no deep seated belief in all or any of the details, but more in awe/disbelief of the statement (as you can see from the emoticon thus :o in my original post). As the comments came back it seems that there may be a history here of established views on any posting of an expression of opinion that challenges 'common' sense or previous recordings of events.

Some members prejudged my opinion and attacked what they thought were my personal beliefs without thinking that I may just be seeking rational dissection of the key elements behind the headline, which in actual fact was the intent. This in itself while inconsiderate and in some cases vindictive including association with some clearly irrelevant themes, was surprising for me considering the calibre of some members whom I considered of above average intelligence and rationality.

Of course this rhetorical labelling then began to occur between other members, and degenerated into communication from some people resembling that of fanatical religious ideologists albeit in terms of simply attacking anyone with opposing views, often without any justifiable position other than a conviction of blind faith.

The penultimate real conspiracy manifested when a mod (TerryO) with an axe to grind about V8 petrols versus twin turbo V6 diesels (all I can think of as no other prior conversations exist) in an earlier non associated thread, labelled the OP a few juvenile terms culminating in the term 'troll'.

Since then, and despite what looks like a balanced opinion (in this thread at least) on the possibility that there is more to the 911 incidents than what has been revealed to the public, there are some who'd rather play the man instead of the ball - or attack the person behind the post instead of the article in the post.

I'm OK with this outcome, as we all need to take some responsibility for what we post, even though I don't agree with all of it (the article in 1st post) and actually take into consideration some opposing views and revelations of the subject's state of mind. As to where it goes from here, I don't know. As for the labelling of myself as a troll, well in a perfect world that individual would admit fault and apologise, but I wont hold my breath :) nor lose sleep on it, we all have different moral codes.

FWIW I did report the offending post, there was no feedback. So it seems all is above board in terms of acceptable personal attacks and intimidation, not that I support such behaviour, but I'll counter any poor form while I'm not too busy with other tasks...


Fair enough , cobber, carry on. Just another day on the general chat. Bob

[Greatsouthernland]

I'm confused too.

Do you mean an attack by terrorists in aircraft, an attack by the CIA, an attack by trolls, or an attack by people who still have a good supply of popcorn handy and are enjoying the entertainment and don't want it to end?

Did you deliberately leave out zombies? They deserve their role in these type of (thread) hijackings, don't they? Didn't someone mention Elvis and Lady Di earlier? :angel:

Can we move this thread to the jokes section yet? :(. I seriously can't believe that it got this much attention, obviously those commenting and viewing have a strong view one way or the other.

Now I see why religion is a banned topic... :)

[vnx205]

Did you deliberately leave out zombies? They deserve their role in these type of (thread) hijackings, don't they? Didn't someone mention Elvis and Lady Di earlier? :angel:

Can we move this thread to the jokes section yet? :(. I seriously can't believe that it got this much attention, obviously those commenting and viewing have a strong view one way or the other.

Now I see why religion is a banned topic... :)

Leaving out the zombies was simply an oversight on my part. Thanks for prompting my memory. :D

I don't believe that the part of your post that I bolded is necessarily true. In an earlier post ou described your own contribution as follows:
I was interested in other opinions. I posted it with no deep seated belief in all or any of the details.

Why is it not possible that some of the other posts were also made by people with no deep seated belief one way or the other?

[Greatsouthernland]

Leaving out the zombies was simply an oversight on my part. Thanks for prompting my memory. :D

I don't believe that the part of your post that I bolded is necessarily true. In an earlier post ou described your own contribution as follows:
I was interested in other opinions. I posted it with no deep seated belief in all or any of the details.

Why is it not possible that some of the other posts were also made by people with no deep seated belief one way or the other?

Opinion and fact, therein lies the conundrum. I'm not going to suppose either of our opinions is fact. But it's entirely possible.

Thanks for your considered and politely put opinion though :D

[bob10]

I'm confused too.

Do you mean an attack by terrorists in aircraft, an attack by the CIA, an attack by trolls, or an attack by people who still have a good supply of popcorn handy and are enjoying the entertainment and don't want it to end?


All of the above, I think, and now ZOMBIES! all we need is Michael Jackson...... say what you like, the dude can dance.




:D
Michael Jackson Thriller (Coreografía con zombies) - YouTube

[Greatsouthernland]

All of the above, I think, and now ZOMBIES! all we need is Michael Jackson...... say what you like, the dude can dance.


:p

I read on the interweb that he was seen talking to Elvis about .... well I shouldn't say, don't want to fuel the fire...:angel:

And the dude 'could' dance Bob ;)

[bob10]

I read on the interweb that he was seen talking to Elvis about .... well I shouldn't say, don't want to fuel the fire...:angel:

And the dude 'could' dance Bob ;)


I heard he was alive, & living with John Lennon on a mountain top in Peru.....Bob

[bob10]

I have an impeccable source....... John Wayne. The Duke don't lie, Pilgrim. Bob

[Greatsouthernland]

And back to our regular programming...:D

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/24999968/i-actually-know-what-had-actually-happened-with-mh370-police-chief/

New claims from the head of the Indonesian police force to airline officials and senior police have sparked new concerns that officials have always known what happened to Malaysia Airlines flight MH370

And NO, I didn't write the article :angel: I don't have shares in Yahoo, and I don't know where the plane is...but it didn't fly into any buildings, that I've read about yet anyway :angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Actually a friend of a friend who is an aviation engineer's brother-in-law working for NASA has reliably told me that MH370 entered a time portal and it was one of the aircraft that hit the WTC Tower 2, bounced back into the portal and also hit the Empire State building in 1945. :twisted:

[Greatsouthernland]

Actually a friend of a friend who is an aviation engineer's brother-in-law working for NASA has reliably told me that MH370 entered a time portal and it was one of the aircraft that hit the WTC Tower 2, bounced back into the portal and also hit the Empire State building in 1945. :twisted:

:o No way!? So King Kong, who was swatting at aeroplanes while hanging from the top of Empire State, would have seen this jet and thought :eek: wtf is that!! (but in ape language of course :mad: don't think I hadn't thought that one through :rolleyes: ).

Yeh those time portals can be a bother, can't refute NASA :alien: ...the plot thickens, more truth serum all round :wacko:

[Disco Muppet]

Uhmm...
Thread Hijack Alert (pun intended).
Go back to Zombies.
Read this.
Laugh.

http://www.cubadebate.cu/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/CONPLAN-8888.pdf

Zombies were flying the plane. CIA trained zombies. Funded by ISIS.
Stirling Archer ISIS. Not the kind of ISIS that makes you think Journalism is more of a cut-throat business than you realised....

[bob10]

Actually a friend of a friend who is an aviation engineer's brother-in-law working for NASA has reliably told me that MH370 entered a time portal and it was one of the aircraft that hit the WTC Tower 2, bounced back into the portal and also hit the Empire State building in 1945. :twisted:


I think I found the fiendish crew , Bob


Time Warp - Rocky Horror Picture Show - YouTube

[Greatsouthernland]

Uhmm...
Thread Hijack Alert (pun intended).
Go back to Zombies.
Read this.
Laugh.

http://www.cubadebate.cu/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/CONPLAN-8888.pdf

Zombies were flying the plane. CIA trained zombies. Funded by ISIS.
Stirling Archer ISIS. Not the kind of ISIS that makes you think Journalism is more of a cut-throat business than you realised....

You've clearly got sources in high places Muppet...but zombies can't fly planes ;) haven't you seen the movie "Z war"?

Vegetarian zombies...:eek:

[Greatsouthernland]

I think I found the fiendish crew , Bob


[/url]

You may be getting close Bob, I think that's how the Bilderberg group stage their meetings :angel: knees in tight, pelvic thrust, insane ... :D good times :angel:

[Disco Muppet]

You've clearly got sources in high places Muppet...but zombies can't fly planes ;) haven't you seen the movie "Z war"?

Vegetarian zombies...:eek:

Evil Magic Zombies..
Chicken Zombies..
How do you know one of the many variants addressed in conplan8888 can't fly a plane :p

[bob10]

Nothing to fear with flying Zombies, moggie squadron to the rescue! Bob


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/793.jpg

[bob10]

Just had a thought, could be a problem with Moggie Squadron, they all have to be inside at night. Bob

[TerryO]

At least this thread is now being ripped off as a joke.

[Greatsouthernland]

At least this thread is now being ripped off as a joke.

Written like a t...

When did it matter what it was? Oh yes, it bothered you a bit...:(,well if it makes you feel better about saving the world from the freedom to reason and discover the cia has a few loose cannons ...yeh, it always was a joke, so the joke's on you :angel:


:eek: zombies aren't a joke,, especially Isis zombies :eek: :wasntme:

[Greatsouthernland]

Evil Magic Zombies..
Chicken Zombies..
How do you know one of the many variants addressed in conplan8888 can't fly a plane :p

How do I know?

Because Hollywood hasn't made a movie where they could, and I haven't read about it on the internet...until today :angel: and I'm always wary of my sources :p Unless you are ex cia...?

BTW, I didn't read all of that con thing, just in case I'm probed by aliens ... again ;)

[Disco Muppet]

At least this thread is now being ripped off as a joke.

Yeah, that's what THEY want you to think! :p

[Greatsouthernland]

And now for a conspiracy FACT

Augusto Pinochet&rsquo;s CIA-backed coup against Salvador Allende: Chile&rsquo;s 9/11 anniversary still divides the country. (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/09/augusto_pinochet_s_cia_backed_coup_against_salvado r_allende_chile_s_9_11.html)

:eek:

[Greatsouthernland]

It’s All Connected

What links creativity, conspiracy theories, and delusions? A phenomenon called apophenia.

Apophenia makes unrelated things seem connected: Metaphors, paranormal beliefs, conspiracies, delusions. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/09/apophenia_makes_unrelated_things_seem_connected_me taphors_paranormal_beliefs.single.html)

AND

Why men never remember anything: The gender divide in memory recollection, explained. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/09/19/why_men_never_remember_anything_the_gender_divide_ in_memory_recollection.html)

[Greatsouthernland]

http://youtu.be/RAAztWC5sT8

from 36:20 on for the conclusion it seems...

[Greatsouthernland]

http://youtu.be/RR2VefBj-_U

Respect to the firefighters...

[Ferret]

From the above video @ 3:45 - "Fire does not burn hot enough to compromise and melt steel"

I would disagree. Used to operate a blast furnace in a previous life. Our BF designs were known a 'Free Standing'. That is, the only thing holding them up is the structural integrity of the steel outer shell of the furnace. There is no other structural support members. The steel outer shell is typically a cylindrical column 8 - 10 m wide and maybe 40 metres high comprising of 25 - 40 mm plate. On top of that cylindrical structure sits more steel frame work and equipment rising perhaps another 50 meters high.

A cooling system is used to keep the outer steel shell temperature below ~ 100 C.

Our instructions from our design engineers was to shut the blast furnace down if the shell temperature rose to 200 C. They would not guarantee the structural integrity of the furnace beyond that temperature. So the strength of steel bearing great loads is certainly comprised at relatively low temperatures.

[Greatsouthernland]

From the above video @ 3:45 - "Fire does not burn hot enough to compromise and melt steel"

I would disagree. Used to operate a blast furnace in a previous life. Our BF designs were known a 'Free Standing'. That is, the only thing holding them up is the structural integrity of the steel outer shell of the furnace. There is no other structural support members. The steel outer shell is typically a cylindrical column 8 - 10 m wide and maybe 40 metres high comprising of 25 - 40 mm plate. On top of that cylindrical structure sits more steel frame work and equipment rising perhaps another 50 meters high.

A cooling system is used to keep the outer steel shell temperature below ~ 100 C.

Our instructions from our design engineers was to shut the blast furnace down if the shell temperature rose to 200 C. They would not guarantee the structural integrity of the furnace beyond that temperature. So the strength of steel bearing great loads is certainly comprised at relatively low temperatures.

No.

He said fire does not burn hot enough 'by itself' 'to MELT steel'... also before that, never in the history of high rise fires, has a building come down because of fire 'itself'.

So a blast furnace is designed to operate a bit differently than a 'typical' high rise fire, as it MELTS steel (iron ore +).

C'mon, wheres the respect for this 32 year veteran of the NYFD, ex cop, Vietnam vet...and his 300plus mates that were victims. I think he knows what a high rise fire is and isn't capable of doing. If you had his 'relevant' experience, then maybe you could challenge a comment, but you couldn't afford to leave words out, as you did above. :D Just sayin mate ;) blast furnaces aren't what he's discussing. He's talking about pools of MOLTEN steel, which he's never seen before.

[Chucaro]

And now for a conspiracy FACT

Augusto Pinochet&rsquo;s CIA-backed coup against Salvador Allende: Chile&rsquo;s 9/11 anniversary still divides the country. (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/09/augusto_pinochet_s_cia_backed_coup_against_salvado r_allende_chile_s_9_11.html)

:eek:

That was not a conspiracy it was well known and started and approved by the Peace Nobel Price winner Kissinger who also was involved in the rest of the Operation Condor.
Every person knew that in South America, perhaps here in Australia our "neutral" media never disclosed it.

[bob10]

coulda been the bovines, Bob


http://youtu.be/a5s5qGg01nE

[Ferret]

No.

He said fire does not burn hot enough 'by itself' ... also before that, never in the history of high rise fires, has a building come down because of fire 'itself'.

So a blast furnace is designed to operate a bit differently than a 'typical' high rise fire.

Steel is steel, it's a matter of steel properties, nothing to do with the purpose of the steel structure.

Steel begins to loose its strength and is therefore compromised at fairly low temperatures, well below 'red heat' of about 500C. Heating steel to only few hundred degrees is easily reached by any fire without further assistance from anything else.

Steel frame building collapses due to fire, 2011.

Steel frame building collapse due to fire

[frantic]

No.

He said fire does not burn hot enough 'by itself' ... also before that, never in the history of high rise fires, has a building come down because of fire 'itself'.

So a blast furnace is designed to operate a bit differently than a 'typical' high rise fire.

C'mon, wheres the respect for this 32 year veteran of the NYFD, ex cop, Vietnam vet...and his 300plus mates that were victims. I think he knows what a high rise fire is and isn't capable of doing. If you had his 'relevant' experience, then maybe you could challenge a comment, but you couldn't afford to leave words out, as you did above. :D Just sayin mate ;) blast furnaces aren't what he's discussing.
Well if he said fire does not burn hot enough by itself, he is totally wrong as he obviously could not even look at Wikipedia. Jet fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel)
Jet fuel burns in open air at 1030degrees.
See I also worked on a blast furnace, then at a slab caster. At 1000 degrees pig iron is borderline of liquid, more like custard, 1200-1300 is ideal
A slab comes out at 700-900 degrees and with zero weight on it will bend in minutes if not placed on a flat surface. A slab is 230mm thick from 800mm wide to 2.2 m and anything from 5m- 12m. All these would bend if not supported correctly till cool.
Further, quickheat steel then hit it with cold water, it will weaken and depending upon the grade will bend as it cools.

[Disco Muppet]

Water + aluminium...

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Greatsouthernland]

Bugger....he seemed so believable.

I'm still not convinced it was those Afghanis, but I suppose the CIA and Muppet can't be wrong :D And you too Ferret :D.

I'll keep an eye out on youtube for something more 'concrete' ;) :cool:

[TerryO]

Steel is steel, it's a matter of steel properties, nothing to do with the purpose of the steel structure.

Steel begins to loose its strength and is therefore compromised at fairly low temperatures, well below 'red heat' of about 500C. Heating steel to only few hundred degrees is easily reached by any fire without further assistance from anything else.

Steel frame building collapses due to fire, 2011.

Steel frame building collapse due to fire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XMTALBYRNA)


I can remember when I was an apprentice in the mid 70's one of the tutors at TAFE discussing structural rigidly of two or three floor buildings and which one out of a wood or steel framed building is more likely to be destroyed and collapse due to fire. All of us apprentices said that the steel frame would be stronger. He informed us that the wood framed building would stay erect far longer than the steel frame which if the heat was intense enough would collapse quite quickly in comparison. So this kind of information has been known for a reasonably long time by experts even if the conspiracy theorists who look for a fanciful anti establishment / government arguments every time something happens want to believe something else usually that the government is out to kill us.

Add on many tens of thousands of tons of building above the burning section like with the 9/11 attacks and the outcome was pretty much assured.

Plus Osama and his mob of bandits had already had one go at knocking down those buildings and had seriously underestimated what it would take, it wouldn't have taken rocket science for them to go away and find out what it would take for their second successful attempt.

[winaje]

As much as I hate buying into crap like this; on the properties of steel...

I was on the crew that demolished the first house in Canberra in the 2003 fires. Saw a large steel H beam draped over a big wooden beam like a stick of warm licorice. So the steel can easily lose it's integrity with sufficient heat.

BTW the wood beam was intact and only charred, still maintaining structural integrity.

[JDNSW]

Steel framed high rise buildings have been historically rare in Australia (for various reasons, concrete is far more common). One of the first modern ones built in Australia was 140 William St Melbourne, in the early seventies.

Since I was to move into it as soon as it was built, I took an interest in its design and building. One of the major design concerns in the building was to ensure adequate fire protection to maintain structural integrity in the case of fire.

In the case of this building, this was by encasing the structural members in lightweight concrete (sprayed on from memory), with this in turn encased in a welded steel jacket. I don't know what approach was used on the WTC, but it certainly brought home to me the vulnerability of this sort of structure to fire.

John

[incisor]

mate of mine was some whiz bang concrete guru who did all sorts of wondrous things with the stuff.

when he was lucid he reckoned the wtc buildings big weak point was they used fly ash in the concrete and that severely limited the buildings integrity, as when it was designed there was no fly ash in the mix specs. it was used as it saved many many $'s

[Greatsouthernland]

he reckoned the wtc buildings big weak point was they used fly ash in the concrete and that severely limited the buildings integrity, as when it was designed there was no fly ash in the mix specs. it was used as it saved many many $'s

Have seen footage of plastic waste used as aggregate in concrete structures to save on cost of suitable crushed rock and volume of concrete otherwise required...and these were just the ones they discovered during the construction, hate to think how many exist.

Anyway, I get how steel bends and loses strength, bit what about the large pools of liquid steel the NYFD veteran spoke of? In a furnace with electric arc, forced oxygen and coking coal over several hours, sure, molten, but massive beams turned to liquid, surely the jet fuel would have been consumed quickly (exploded mainly), then the fire needs to self sustain.

Anyway, that observed and reported fact aside, the planes don't show commercial markings in those clips, the remote control 767's used previously demonstrate the 'possibility', crossover above US Air Force base by both planes is a new one, the last second minor and precise flight path corrections at extremely high velocity by supposedly amateur pilots and the 'interesting tenants' of the floors precisely targeted seem much more than coincidence to a few people posting these clips on youtube. I'm still not buying the murdoch media version, Weapons of Mass Destruction is one conspiracy fact most people believed at one stage. That firefighter seems very 'aware' of something else to come out of it all. Time will tell I suppose.

[Eevo]

hate to think how many exist.

there is 1 way to find out

[TerryO]

If there were no markings then that makes perfect sense they must have been disguised US airforce planes that Bush had the CIA secretly crash into the Twin Towers to make it look like an Osama Binladen master plan.

I hate to think what the US government did to all those hundreds of poor innocent US citizens who were last seen boarding the actual commercial air liners that were reported to be the ones that were flown into the Twin Towers and were never seen again. They must have been hijacked by the CIA and flown else where while the Airforce crashed the other planes into the Twin Towers.

Who knows maybe they are at the same secret Air Force base with all those people the CIA supposedly hijacked recently on flight MH370 last year.

I feel much better now knowing that I don't have to worry about local Jihadist terrorists wanting to take over and convert the world now I know its only the CIA having a bit of fun crashing planes and hijacking and killing in mass their own countries citizens.

Those CIA boys sure know how to have fun don't they! ... I wonder if they will ever let Elvis go so he can do a few more concerts before he gets to old?

... :angel:

[Disco Muppet]

The single greatest argument against 9/11 being a conspiracy by the Bush administration was that it worked.

[Greatsouthernland]

The single greatest argument against 9/11 being a conspiracy by the Bush administration was that it worked.

Not saying Bush mob were planners, more so sat idle while it played out (allowed it to happen), I think that's what the NYFD guy was getting at. He's certainly got more credibility than any of us and he was there, and lost hundreds of his colleagues.

Anyway, the official report is good reading, seems from it that most of the drive for terrorism comes from Saudi Arabia, but they weren't the focus of revenge, so it will most likely continue...Afghanistan was just a Saudi proxy as in the 80's against the USSR.
"Saudi Arabia has been a problematic ally in combating Islamic extremism. Before 9/11, the Saudi and U.S. governments did not fully share intelligence information or develop an adequate joint effort to track and disrupt the finances of the al Qaeda organization. On the other hand, government officials of Saudi Arabia at the highest levels worked closely with top U.S. officials in major initiatives to solve the Bin Ladin problem with diplomacy."


National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Exec.htm)

[bob10]

Just in, secret film of the CIA agent, Bob


One flew over the cuckoo's nest - Trailer - HQ - YouTube

[incisor]

The single greatest argument against 9/11 being a conspiracy by the Bush administration was that it worked.

nah

they were after the empire state building muppet... tho the ape was a no show as well....

and here i was thinking you were up to speed on this sort of thing...

:angel:

[ramblingboy42]

jeez, religious threads are better than this......

[Greatsouthernland]

jeez, religious threads are better than this......

...and religion led to this...at least this was real :o ...

But you can't talk about that Ramble ;)

[ramblingboy42]

absolutely.....I always stick to the thread:angel:

now how can I ambush this one?:D

[ramblingboy42]

I won't ambush it.....

I'll join in with this.....
http://skepdic.com/illuminati.html#9/11

[Greatsouthernland]

I won't ambush it.....

[/url]

No you won't...because you're 5 months and about 170 posts late for that opportunity :p

But good on you for trying to make a useful contribution :D

Don't give up. :cool:

[ramblingboy42]

I think the more we can ambush and stuff up threads of this nature the better it is for everyone

[Greatsouthernland]

:nazilock:
I think the more we can ambush and stuff up threads of this nature the better it is for everyone

Well I feel sorry for you. What you feel is better for everyone? Careful there, that sounds a bit like a dictator :nazilock:

Those best placed to comment on American conspiracies are Americans.

Retired Navy SEAL Americans, no less. Ramble, I think this guy knows more than you or I, I wonder if you'd admit to him that your role is to remove his freedom to discuss his views.

http://youtu.be/yg9VFSy-x8o

And I'm out of this as that clip sums up the main points I keep stumbling across when trying to understand how these events happen. I'm sure the haters will keep up the personal attacks though :rolleyes:

[isuzurover]

This thread is hilarious.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/242.jpg
https://yandoo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/8c3957_5322146.jpg

[Greatsouthernland]

LOL

[ramblingboy42]

is that guy professor brian cox?

[ramblingboy42]

anyway....no planes hit the twin towers.....how would you throw them or launch them so high?

but some aeroplanes hit the towers.....didn't they?.......DIDN'T THEY?