Lack of power even after mods

[omy130]

Really down in the mouth. After modifying, tuning and tweaking my 200Tdi, it still seems to be lackluster in the top end.

Mods so far:
[emoji820] MR tweak, even took it back to double check & turn the smoke screw a bit more.
[emoji820] 3" exhaust from the dump with free flow muffler.
[emoji820] Allisport Double Core inter cooler.
[emoji820] Running 265/75/16
[emoji820] Has disco final drive.
[emoji820] Doesn't have the std snorkel top, but the old school one that captures the dust first
[emoji820] Has the K&N filter from my 300tdi. Even though 200/300 has different codes, original filters look the same except for the Inner Dia where they mount.

Tomorrow I'm going to put a std 200 Tdi filter on to see if that diameter difference makes a change. I drove my 300TDi with a K&N over 300 000ks without effects on that motor.

After doing similar mods to my old 300Tdi, I really was looking forward to this car being a blast to drive. Not yet:(

Any thoughts would be great.

[PAT303]

Did they do the basic stuff like valve clearances and set the tune on a dyno?,if they just used a screwdriver on the pump I'm not supprised it didn't work. Pat

[Tombie]

Disco final drive will drag performance down a little on 32s as that's well up on a disco 29" ratio!

Agree with Pat, what boost did they up the turbo to?

And try without the restriction of the precleaner on the snorkel - they pull a fair bit off...

Is it smoking much?

[omy130]

Pump played with, not just the smoke screw, valves reset. Boost is at std or just able, they were a bit cagey when I asked. I've not fitted my boost gauge yet.

Smokes just a touch. I push the accelerator until I feel no more action from the engine when driving. No need to shove it to the floor. EGT's got to 620 fully loaded with camper up cunninghams gap on Friday. Pushed it pretty hard to see what happened.

[omy130]

Precleaner does not have a filter.

[weeds]

what sort of performance are you expecting............even with a tweak they are not mind blowing

I had mine done twice at MR before having it checked on a dyno with the probe checking the exhaust gasses...slight changes were made.

if you got up the gap fully loaded with camper and were not in first you're probably doing OK

my its in the gearing changes you have made as I just have stock inter-cooler and stock size exhaust with no mufflers

[460cixy]

Ditch the disco gearing

[omy130]

I found the manifold gasket was blown out. Some idiot before me had put in 2 bolts on the inlet manifold that were too short. That in turn stripped the threads.

[omy130]

Now with good turbo pressure, it now feel like it's lacking fuel & EGT's get super hot, super fast. I reckon starving for fuel at the injector pump (got to check if main fuel screw has been tampered with and adjusted) or try and check fuel pressure into pump. I have installed a new fuel pump but it may be faulty. Any other ideas???

[isuzurover]

Increasing boost lowers EGT. If your egt is high your problem is not lack of fuel. What are boost and egt numbers?

[omy130]

Boost at the inlet manifold 13psi. At 100 kph, EGT's are 530. As soon as a hill appears, just a little push on throttle it races to 720 plus and I have to back off. As for speed, it is flat out holding 80 kph up the Gateway Bridge.

[omy130]

It's still lacking power.

[isuzurover]

Boost pressure is too low.

[BigBlackDog]

I thought they were only meant to run about 13psi standard?

[Defendozer]

Yep I'm pretty sure 200tdi's are standard at about 13-14 psi.

[SSmith]

Yep I'm pretty sure 200tdi's are standard at about 13-14 psi.

True
But pull a lot harder at 18psi :cool:

Sent from my GT-S7562L using AULRO mobile app

[Defendozer]

For sure, if the injector pump has been tuned up as well, from my experience just raising boost pressure on its own doesn't change performance much.

[Defendozer]

Omy130 your EGT's definitely are a bit high imho, I know I've got a 300tdi but at 100kph it sits on 400 degrees (give or take). And to raise that fast I would say the max fuel screw has definitely been advanced, I haven't seen those sort of temps from just turning the diaphragm etc..

[isuzurover]

For sure, if the injector pump has been tuned up as well, from my experience just raising boost pressure on its own doesn't change performance much.

Well Duh. You need boost and fuel, and an intercooler that can cope. By the OP's posts he has an upgraded intercooler, and plenty of fuel (based on EGT numbers). The thing that is lacking is sufficient boost to make use of the fuel, and at the same time reduce EGTs.

[Defendozer]

Well Duh. You need boost and fuel, and an intercooler that can cope. By the OP's posts he has an upgraded intercooler, and plenty of fuel (based on EGT numbers). The thing that is lacking is sufficient boost to make use of the fuel, and at the same time reduce EGTs.

I know, I was merely commenting on Smith's post about upping to 18psi.

[SSmith]

And i was just reinforcing what isuzu was hinting at.

High Egt after a pump tweak means it wants more boost so it can burn all the extra fuel, or just turn the fuel back down.

Should have taken the time to explain i guess.

Sent from my GT-S7562L using AULRO mobile app

[Defendozer]

Or I could have given it more thought then I did, my apologies all.

[BigBlackDog]

What an odd outcome on a forum, people sorting out their differences and making up !

So, how does omy130 turn up the BOOST!?

[isuzurover]

...

So, how does omy130 turn up the BOOST!?

Adjust the wastegate actuator on the turbo to increase tension so the wastegate opens later (higher pressure).

18 psi is fine for the stock turbo.

[roverrescue]

One other aspect to check is the actual timing of the injection pump. It is not too difficult to measure the plunger lift at TDC. This and the tappets would be my first adjustments before even touching the aneroid or boost.

Talking increasing boost, you can play with the wastegate as Ben mentions or other option is a needle valve like this:

Manual Adjustable Boost Controller Boost TEE | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Manual-Adjustable-Boost-Controller-Boost-Tee-/301468855972?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4630f1aea4)

placed in the wastegate line. Especially on a 300 where the wastegate is a touch challenging to get to. One of these jiggers will let you fiddle the boost to wherever you would like

I tend to agree on the ~18psi target under load. On overrun low load you might peak to 20 odd.

Steve

[omy130]

Spoke to MR Auto. Part of their re-tune checks timing & value clearance. So it's not that.

New timing belt fitted before I bought it. Is it possible to get the internal timing marks wrong when putting the belt on but the external indicators still being right?

Going to play over the weekend.

[SSmith]

What an odd outcome on a forum, people sorting out their differences and making up !

So, how does omy130 turn up the BOOST!?

That's because we are trying to help somebody and not comparing county to puma, or discussing alternate energy/ cyclists/ raw milk/ vaccinations and whatever other slag matches are currently running :p

Also going back a few steps, why the disco high range? as Tombie mentioned, kills performance on 32' or bigger tyres. - most Disco owners are looking at changing diff ratio's when going 32 or above

Id expect to see higher EGT's on the flat if timing was out, plus I have a little more faith in MR auto's workmanship - how long ago was the tuneup? and was it done before or after the other mods?

[roverrescue]

Is it possible to get the internal timing marks wrong when putting the belt on but the external indicators still being right?

The only external indicators are flywheel slot at TDC and Injection Pump at maximum lift.
There is no external way to assess the cam position with the timing case in place.
It is definitely possible to install the belt with the cam gear out by a tooth

BUT from all accounts on the forum I would have thought MR would be onto that palaver like white on rice...

out of interest were all your modifications performed at same time.
ie did you do the tuning whilst throwing your gearing out the window???
Putting a disco Tbag into the defender is kinda like throwing 15% of your torque down the drain... if you have not driven the rig with the new gearing before tuning it may all just be due to gearing.

S

[BigBlackDog]

Do many people run these boost tee roverrescue? Looks like a really good thing, I'd never heard of them until 5 minutes ago. Did some research, I like! Not till I get a boost gauge on though
Sorry, any other dumb question - what is the best place to tap the boost reading from? I'm torn between the intake manifold (that cap bolt at the back) to measure what the engine is getting, or the boost line itself to measure what the turbo is actually doing. Or does it completely not matter?:D

[Blknight.aus]

Have you changed the fuel filter and made sure the pump is getting g the correct pressure and flow of fuel being delivered to.it.?

[omy130]

I've always thought it was a fuel pressure thing. Blknight - how would you check the pressure? I was going to try to make something to check this weekend. Filter is new.

Did drop the fuel tank, blow lines out and put new lift/fuel pump on before original post. Did this as thought not enough fuel in filter when bleeding air out. Same outcome with new pump fitted.

Also was going to look at std versus non genuine fuel filters in relation to opening/holes that would limit flow. Unsure which is on at the moment. Have a tonne of stock bought from people with old 200tdi parts.

MR did not do the timing belt. And doubt they would pull the cover off the check internal timing marks were correct. They did check the timing externally.

The lower gearing came witht the car, then performance mod were added. A note on this, there is more than one disco owner running Tyres at least 31" or larger without the woes I'm experiencing. Unless the diff ratios are different between the 2 makes, I can't seem to nail this one yet.

This is not the first defender owned. Had built a 300tdi defender up to great performance over a 10 yr period before a 'slight' rollover with it being written off. So when getting this one sorted, it should have just been case of buy parts, mod and then it 'should' go better. But not to be. But I'd do have expectations and need to see them a lot quicker that the 10yrs it took for the last defender.

[loanrangie]

For accuracy, exactly what gearing was changed ? Disco tc or diff , disco tc is higher not lower gearing.

I'm not convinced its the tc if its a disco 1.22/1, my stock 300tdi with auto and 32's pulls quite well but some of that is the auto.

[omy130]

1.22 transfer. Sorry, I always say lower as it lowers the revs.

[isuzurover]

Do many people run these boost tee roverrescue? Looks like a really good thing, I'd never heard of them until 5 minutes ago. Did some research, I like! Not till I get a boost gauge on though
Sorry, any other dumb question - what is the best place to tap the boost reading from? I'm torn between the intake manifold (that cap bolt at the back) to measure what the engine is getting, or the boost line itself to measure what the turbo is actually doing. Or does it completely not matter?:D

Yes lots of people.

Best to measure boost at the inlet manifold so you know what is reaching the engine.

[isuzurover]

I've always thought it was a fuel pressure thing. Blknight - how would you check the pressure? I was going to try to make something to check this weekend. Filter is new.

Did drop the fuel tank, blow lines out and put new lift/fuel pump on before original post. Did this as thought not enough fuel in filter when bleeding air out. Same outcome with new pump fitted.

Also was going to look at std versus non genuine fuel filters in relation to opening/holes that would limit flow. Unsure which is on at the moment. Have a tonne of stock bought from people with old 200tdi parts.

MR did not do the timing belt. And doubt they would pull the cover off the check internal timing marks were correct. They did check the timing externally.

The lower gearing came witht the car, then performance mod were added. A note on this, there is more than one disco owner running Tyres at least 31" or larger without the woes I'm experiencing. Unless the diff ratios are different between the 2 makes, I can't seem to nail this one yet.

This is not the first defender owned. Had built a 300tdi defender up to great performance over a 10 yr period before a 'slight' rollover with it being written off. So when getting this one sorted, it should have just been case of buy parts, mod and then it 'should' go better. But not to be. But I'd do have expectations and need to see them a lot quicker that the 10yrs it took for the last defender.

Have you turned up the boost yet?

[SSmith]

I've always thought it was a fuel pressure thing. Blknight - how would you check the pressure? I was going to try to make something to check this weekend. Filter is new.

Did drop the fuel tank, blow lines out and put new lift/fuel pump on before original post. Did this as thought not enough fuel in filter when bleeding air out. Same outcome with new pump fitted.
is it possible there is air getting in then?

Also was going to look at std versus non genuine fuel filters in relation to opening/holes that would limit flow. Unsure which is on at the moment. Have a tonne of stock bought from people with old 200tdi parts.
potential there but less likely to be your issue

MR did not do the timing belt. And doubt they would pull the cover off the check internal timing marks were correct. They did check the timing externally.
does it blow smoke? revs not climb (or take ages to do so) beyond 2500 - 3000? there are a few hints that timing is out that MR would not likely ignore. whip the cover off and have a look, for peace of mind sake, if you have time

The lower gearing came with the car, then performance mod were added. A note on this, there is more than one disco owner running Tyres at least 31" or larger without the woes I'm experiencing. Unless the diff ratios are different between the 2 makesno, same, I can't seem to nail this one yet.
this is entirely subjective, I absolutely hated my disco on 32' tyres and stock gearing - hill starts required way too much clutch slip. most drivers who are ok with it have auto's, the torque converter compensates nicely, and lets not forget the weight difference between a disco and defender is not in your favour. we can put this to bed tho, how does it perform in low range?

This is not the first defender owned. Had built a 300tdi defender up to great performance over a 10 yr period before a 'slight' rollover with it being written off. So when getting this one sorted, it should have just been case of buy parts, mod and then it 'should' go better. But not to be. But I'd do have expectations and need to see them a lot quicker that the 10yrs it took for the last defender
and right you are, it'll just be that one little thing making everything else you have done not live up to its potential

Stick with it.

[roverrescue]

Bigbnlackdog,

As Ben mentioned they are quite common and on a 300 where the wastegate rod is a "quadrauple jointed 4 year old wrists" job to get to they are very handy to enable accurate boost adjustment.

The Dawes or needle valve is placed in between the boost source of the turbo and the wastegate actuator. From stock my wastegate was opening at 13psi, I now have it open at about 18-19psi. As mentioned before on low load high throttle inputs (think PDR cruising at 100 off throttle for a dip road seed down to 80 then apply full throttle) the boost will climb higher than that but under full throttle full load (up a slight incline in 3rd or 4th for example) the gate will open at about 18psi.

I see no good reason to measure engine boost at any location besides the manifold. A 300 manifold already has a blanked casting at the rear just asking to be drilled and tapped for a boost sender.

Back to the original problem. I assume simple things like the boost line to the FIP aneroid has been checked for integrity. I would imagine that if you dialed a 300FIP nicely at idle but then never fed it boost to move the aneroid diaphragm at higher outputs it would
"seems to be lackluster in the top end"

I think you really need to go with first principles as Dave said:
-Fuel supply at high throttle is a possibility
-Timing is a possibility (check plunger lift for 100% certainty - this can be done without removing anything from the front of engine)
-Boost leaks
-FIP and Aneroid integrity / settings

Steve

[BigBlackDog]

Thanks roverrescue, great information.
I can confirm that if the boost line leaks then it performs rubbish in the higher power. There is a rubber reducer just off the turbo, mine split on the highway. Hisses quite loudly too, so you know something obvious is wrong

[omy130]

Couldn't increase boost by turning actuator rod. So wired waste gate shut and still nil increase in boost pressure at inlet manifold. Now going back to original turbo to chase lackluster issue. Should have swapped turbo results this arvo, all depending on 2 snapped bolts so far.

[isuzurover]

Couldn't increase boost by turning actuator rod. So wired waste gate shut and still nil increase in boost pressure at inlet manifold. Now going back to original turbo to chase lackluster issue. Should have swapped turbo results this arvo, all depending on 2 snapped bolts so far.

You sure you don't have a leak somewhere between the turbo and the manifold?

[rick130]

Or further to Ben's suggestion, a blockage on the inlet side somewhere.

Hose between the guard and air cleaner, air cleaner itself (and everyone has been very restrained over the K&N :angel:) delaminating 90*hose or delaminating top hose.

It sounds like it's just lacking air.

[SSmith]

(and everyone has been very restrained over the K&N :angel:) .

Was leaving that to Ben

[isuzurover]

Was leaving that to Ben

Nah, I figured it was easier (and more profitable) to buy shares in engine rebuild companies ;)

[omy130]

Have put original intercooler in, the original hose fittings & original turbo back on. No change. Currently for the in garage tests, I do not have the air filter connected to eliminate any chance of blockage between turbo & snorkel.

About to go back pull manifolds back off to see if warped & also check the gasket. I had 2 manifold gaskets, a thin & thick one. I put the thick one (silver - old school looking) on as the thin one was out of a complete kit that I did not want to break open. The original one was a thin one though. Could not see a difference in the two.

[omy130]

Is the intercooler & pipes suppose to get fairly hot under load?

[isuzurover]

Is the intercooler & pipes suppose to get fairly hot under load?

Yes. When working hard in hot weather the pipe after the turbo compressor (before the intercooler) should be too hot to touch. You should be able to touch the pipe between the cooler and the intake.

[omy130]

Thick gasket showed signs of gas escape for exhaust & too much oil where it shouldn't for inlet.

Swapped for a thin black gasket. Re-fitted & torqued as per Haynes Manual. Put silicon hoses back on.

Restart & run under load. Have noticed bubbles & oil from between gasket & manifolds?????????

On the street, there is a massive air leak as car starts to boost.

What do I do now? :(

[justinc]

What does this rig weigh? With plenty of accesories and taller gearing they will be sluggish. I sould xefinately actually check the timing. Is it quiet for a tdi? You really need to start with some other basics too, have you done a compression check? Sometimes tgese engines will run reasonably ok with low overall compression, they'll just be inefficient and cycle lots of oil through the intKe system. We can usually pick them down here in winter, they won't start too well on colx mornings :-)
Maybe if you could post a sound byte of the thing idling, and a few decent quick throttle blips and I could tell you a lot about its state of advance/ retard.

Jc

[Jode]

Is it quiet for a tdi? You really need to start with some other basics too, have you done a compression check? Sometimes tgese engines will run reasonably ok with low overall compression, they'll just be inefficient and cycle lots of oil through the intKe system. We can usually pick them down here in winter, they won't start too well on colx mornings :-)
Jup, that was our 300 TDI before the rebuild - hated turning over on cold mornings (we get plenty of night frost here in the country). But it's started right off after new cylinder liners and pistons, new valves and new glo-plugs - be intersting to see what happens in early July when things really get chilly.

[omy130]

After 3 1/2 yrs sitting on this, spanners were wielded in Feb.

The massive air leak was a missing bolt that supports the oil feed line up to the turbo. In my haste to get it running, it was never re-fitted. This bolt fits into a raised boss on the inlet manifold (drilled completely through). So now we don't have the massive air leak but still lack of power.

Then I re-evaluated every thing, even reconditioned the injectors (which were rooted) still no better so off the another LR mechanic. Yep, timing belt out by a notch. Amazed by that as I'd payed my local LR mechanic to check this back in 2014.

Unfortunately with all the sitting around, the injector pump now leaks and needs a rebuild along with few other seals that are now shot.

Thanks to all that have contributed to this extra long process and looking forward to getting out there. Geoff.

[justinc]

The effect incorrect timing has on a 200 or 300 tdi is huge. Over many years of working on these engines this is by far one of my first tests/ checks after basics like fuel and air delivery.

Great news!!!

[simmo]

Hi Justin, you mentioned a couple of times "is it quiet for a tdi? " people have commented my Tdi is quiet, is that a sign that means the timing is a bit retarded? Mine seems to go ok, pulling 1.2 transfer case and 235/85/16s, I was just thinking the other day how well its going, I recently rejoined the working class, ( as opposed to the not working class :) ), and have been driving 20 kms to work each day, mostly in 3 rd & 4th gear.

cheers simmo

[86mud]

Do you have exhaust wrap simmo?

I just wrapped the first metre of exhaust from the turbo on my tweaked 300Tdi and.....damn....what a difference in noise level both inside and outside. it is so much quieter.

[simmo]

Yes its wrapped from the turbo outlet to the aft end of the transfer case,and has no center muffler.
Lots of interesting comments here about the disco TC conversion- IMO -one of the best value mods I've done. Once I learned how to drive it and adjust my gear change times. I never use 5th gear around town now, but hang on in 4th and let the engine rev. Same ona long hill, I'll just hold it in 4th at 100 km/hr and let it rev and do its job, egts permitting. Its not a 5 l V8, it needs to rev to make power. (another member on the forum gave me that tip). Its not like defender gearing where youre in 5th gear at 60 km hr.

The car is so much quieter inside with the disco TC.

I run 235/85/16, (32"?) & hardly notice that 1st gear is higher except on a very steep hill or towing a heavy trailer, (rarely). I could see it would be a problem towing a van though. I think if I got a small van I'd put my defender TC back in, and just drop 10 km/hr off my cruising speed.

Cruising at 100 km hr ( with roof rack), is about 400 deg C , about 12 psi boost, 110 km h its up to 15 psi , measured at the manifold.
Cruising is noticeably more relaxed without the drag of the roof rack, my VGT turbo boost is set to 21psi max, I wouldn't have much concern about raising the boost on a tdi, from what I've read the engine can run up to 21 psi without any noticeable reduction in reliability or engine life.

Between the VGT, bigger intercooler & the disco TC, the car is transformed into a much more relaxing and enjoyable drive, I'm probably doing 40 % less gear changes than I used to.

Someone said " you spent a lot of money on the engine in that car", you could have bought a Td-5 defender. it's true, I spent about $2700, +$1000 for the TC, but the money was spent over 5 years. A Td-5 defender in the same condition as my car was never going to be a $3000 -$ 4000 change over.

Its a little off topic I know , but the 200 & 300 tdi are not that far apart and they can be tuned to make for a reliable, and enjoyable car to drive for not a lot of money. If your in it for the long term you'll get you monies worth of enjoyable motoring.

Its the car land rover could have made in 1995 with all their resources and expertise. :)

cheers simmo

[justinc]

Sounds from those egts it is actually timed quite well seeing as it has 20% taller gearing and is working hard in 5th at 100kmh... the quiet i referred to was regarding detonation rattle . From a warm idle you should hear a nice clatter when blipping the throttle. And it should start straight away and accelerate smoothly from stone cold... although your idea of cold up there is actually Not. Cold. At . All....😅

[roverrescue]

OMY130. Thanks for getting back and updating
On re-reading the thread a few of us payed the blame on timing at the get go.
Your reply of
“Spoke to MR Auto. Part of their re-tune checks timing & value clearance. So it's not that.”

Is a little concerning but a good learning point. Either get some ears like JustinC that can hear the tune of a tdi or stick a Freekin dial gauge in the plunger of the FIP and check the actual pump timing

Steve

[123rover50]

I had not heard of these T boost controllers either. Looked at the Turbosmart on the ebay link.
What does one do with the wastegate etc when installing this?

[justinc]

I had not heard of these T boost controllers either. Looked at the Turbosmart on the ebay link.
What does one do with the wastegate etc when installing this?

It is upstream from it and controls the sugnal. Wastegate stays put.