Is Australia's PM a British citizen?

[DiscoMick]

Interesting story. Goes like this:
1. Abbott was born in Britain
2. Abbott came to Australia
3. Abbott went to Oxford as a British (not Australian) citizen
4. Abbott became an Australian citizen
5. Did Abbott ever renounce his British citizenship?
6. If Abbott is still a British citizen, he is banned under our constitution from being a member of the Australian parliament.
7. Abbott's staff have refused to respond for requests for proof that Abbott has renounced his British citizenship.
8. Inquiries are continuing, thanks to a Queensland blogger.


Interesting...
Read more here:
http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/the-strange-and-suspicious-case-of-tony-abbotts-citizenship,6859


Please note, there are no party political comments in this post.

[disco man]

With a bit of luck they might take him back.

[shanegtr]

With a bit of luck they might take him back.

Probably a good reason why they sent him here in the first place:censored:

[101RRS]

If there had been any issue Labor would have been onto this long ago.

[Ean Austral]

If the same rules applied to the union movement there would be no one left, all the Poms and Scotts wouldn't know what to do with themselves.


Cheers Ean

[isuzurover]

Wasn't a one nation candidate forced to renounce her british citizenship.

[AndyG]

Not to mention the Welsh, especially the red haired, lying, backstabbing females of the world.

Not thinking of any one in particular :angel:

[Greatsouthernland]

They do love him over there, more than their own.

so if he was to lose the next election, I reckon he'd get the gig back there.

The election of Australia's new PM Tony Abbott is clear evidence that genuine conservative policies can win elections | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2415635/The-election-Australias-new-PM-Tony-Abbott-clear-evidence-genuine-conservative-policies-win-elections.html)

[Greatsouthernland]

If the same rules applied to the union movement there would be no one left, all the Poms and Scotts wouldn't know what to do with themselves.


Cheers Ean

AND the socialist left :angel:

[Chucaro]

The ideas man (http://tonymagrathea.blog.com/2014/06/21/tony-abbott/)

I just wonder if he come by boat..........

[AndyG]

34 Until the Parliament otherwise provides, the qualifications of a member of the House of Representatives shall be as follows:

(i.) He must be of the full age of twenty-one years, and must be an elector entitled to vote at the election of members of the House of Representatives, or a person qualified to become such elector, and must have been for three years at the least a resident within the limits of the Commonwealth as existing at the time when he was chosen:

(ii.) He must be a subject of the Queen, either natural-born or for at least five years naturalised under a law of the United Kingdom, or of a Colony which has become or becomes a State, or of the Commonwealth, or of a State.

[Chucaro]

Then again, Section 44 of the Australian Constitution is clear when it says:

Dual nationality is considered an acknowledgement of allegiance and entitled to the privileges of citizenship of a foreign power disqualifies people from standing for parliament.

I live it to the experts or if in a harry to know the answer ask Professor Augusto Zimmerman of Murdoch University :)

[AndyG]

Then again, Section 44 of the Australian Constitution is clear when it says:

Dual nationality is considered an acknowledgement of allegiance and entitled to the privileges of citizenship of a foreign power disqualifies people from standing for parliament.

I live it to the experts :)

Thanks, i did not get that far, and i would agree, and go further and say no one should be a dual citizen for that very reason.

The 34 & 44 do seem to contradict themselves, but leave it to the experts.

[THE BOOGER]

Didn't he go to oxford as a Rhodes Scholar open only to Australian citizens:)

The Rhodes Scholarships for Australia - The Rhodes Scholarships (http://www.rhodeshouse.ox.ac.uk/about/rhodes-countries/australia)

Yeh if he didn't qualify I think labour would have been on it the day after the election when it would be the most embarrassing for the Libs:)

[Chucaro]

There is a precedent which go against section 34 when in 1996 Jackie Kelly was forced to face a by-election when she was found to have been elected while holding both Australian and New Zealand citizenship.

[korg20000bc]

And Bob Hawke had honorary citizenship in Israel.
Anyway:
www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_business/committees/house_of_representatives_committees?url=/laca/section44%5Cchap2.pdf

[mikehzz]

Didn't he go to oxford as a Rhodes Scholar open only to Australian citizens:)

The Rhodes Scholarships for Australia - The Rhodes Scholarships (http://www.rhodeshouse.ox.ac.uk/about/rhodes-countries/australia)

Yeh if he didn't qualify I think labour would have been on it the day after the election when it would be the most embarrassing for the Libs:)

b. You must be an Australian citizen and have been resident in Australia for at least
five of the last ten years. Candidates with dual citizenship may not apply in more
than one of the countries in which they are citizens.

I don't quite know what that means??

[Mick_Marsh]

And Bob Hawke had honorary citizenship in Israel.
Anyway:
www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_business/committees/house_of_representatives_committees?url=/laca/section44%5Cchap2.pdf (http://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_business/committees/house_of_representatives_committees?url=/laca/section44%5Cchap2.pdf)
Interesting quote from that document.

The challenge to Miss Jackie Kelly's qualification was based in part on the issue of dual nationality, but that matter was not pursued when the case came before the Court.

[AndyG]

It must have been an interesting issue straight after Federation with lots of first generation British here.

[frantic]

In the USA you not only have to be a citizen, but born there. This is something some republicans are trying to change as they want a certain ex governor of kali4nia to run for president.

[AndyG]

Done, i believe to prevent the English born gentry taking over the new nation.

On a different tack, how the hell are politicians able to parachute into an Electorate at a moments notice, surely they should have a residential history of say 3 years. Something that really :angrylock: me

[Ausfree]

Done, i believe to prevent the English born gentry taking over the new nation.

On a different tack, how the hell are politicians able to parachute into an Electorate at a moments notice, surely they should have a residential history of say 3 years. Something that really :angrylock: me



Happening in the state seat of Cessnock. the Nationals are parachuting Angry Anderson ( yep, THAT Angry Anderson the muso) into the seat to replace a local candidate. Reading the paper today a lot of locals are quite "angry" (pun intended):)
Angry & angrier: Liberal quits over Nat's 'novelty' candidate | Newcastle Herald (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2538436/angry-angrier-liberal-quits-over-nats-novelty-candidate/?cs=305)

[boa]

Why would it be a problem our head of state is the queen after all. Never bothered with citizenship. England still rules.

[Mick_Marsh]

[/B]

Happening in the state seat of Cessnock. the Nationals are parachuting Angry Anderson ( yep, THAT Angry Anderson the muso) into the seat to replace a local candidate. Reading the paper today a lot of locals are quite "angry" (pun intended):)
Angry & angrier: Liberal quits over Nat's 'novelty' candidate | Newcastle Herald (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2538436/angry-angrier-liberal-quits-over-nats-novelty-candidate/?cs=305)
I totally disagree with putting rock stars, sports people and career polititians in the house of reps. They're the least representative of the population.

[Mick_Marsh]

Never bothered with citizenship.
Who? You or the Queen?

[BMKal]

In the USA you not only have to be a citizen, but born there. This is something some republicans are trying to change as they want a certain ex governor of kali4nia to run for president.

So is this what he was meaning when he said ....................... "I'll be back".

[bob10]

Why would it be a problem our head of state is the queen after all. Never bothered with citizenship. England still rules.



The Queen is more German than English. Bob ;)

[isuzurover]

In the USA you not only have to be a citizen, but born there. This is something some republicans are trying to change as they want a certain ex governor of kali4nia to run for president.

' I was elected to lead, not to read'

[AndyG]

The Queen is more German than English. Bob ;)

We are NOT amused
We had a Landie long before you Bob

Liz, :wasntme:

[boa]

Who? You or the Queen?
Me, been here for 56 years I have already sworn alengince to the queen being a british Citizenship cannot see why I need to do it twice.

[rangietragic]

Don't agree with dual citizenship.Can't swear alliegence to two countries:mad:

[101RRS]

Me, been here for 56 years I have already sworn alengince to the queen being a british Citizenship cannot see why I need to do it twice.

You have done it to the Queen of the UK - you need to declare your allegiance to the Queen of Australia.

[frantic]

[/B]

Happening in the state seat of Cessnock. the Nationals are parachuting Angry Anderson ( yep, THAT Angry Anderson the muso) into the seat to replace a local candidate. Reading the paper today a lot of locals are quite "angry" (pun intended):)
Angry & angrier: Liberal quits over Nat's 'novelty' candidate | Newcastle Herald (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2538436/angry-angrier-liberal-quits-over-nats-novelty-candidate/?cs=305)

He ran in one of the seats south of us ,illawarra,and lost in the last election.

[85 county]

Don't agree with dual citizenship.Can't swear alliegence to two countries:mad:


born in one, swear to another. and not all country s require you to swear

[Ausfree]

He ran in one of the seats south of us ,illawarra,and lost in the last election.
He did too!!:) They don't give up easily do they!!

[numpty]

[/B]

Happening in the state seat of Cessnock. the Nationals are parachuting Angry Anderson ( yep, THAT Angry Anderson the muso) into the seat to replace a local candidate. Reading the paper today a lot of locals are quite "angry" (pun intended):)
Angry & angrier: Liberal quits over Nat's 'novelty' candidate | Newcastle Herald (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2538436/angry-angrier-liberal-quits-over-nats-novelty-candidate/?cs=305)

Bit of a stretch that, suggesting he's a muso :o About as musical as my left one.

[bob10]

We are NOT amused
We had a Landie long before you Bob

Liz, :wasntme:


AND, more Russian, via the Romanov's, old Queen Victoria spread her daughters around Europe, by goodness. The mad German stuffed it all up, in the end. Bob
:angel:

[Mick_Marsh]

Bit of a stretch that, suggesting he's a muso :o About as musical as my left one.
I went to a Rose Tattoo/ZZ Top concert. The Americans were so slick but I've got to say Rose Tattoo were very good and held their own.

[isuzurover]

This is the case I mentioned earlier.


At the 1998 federal election, Heather Hill, a woman with dual British-Australian citizenship, was elected to the Australian Senate as a senator for Queensland. Henry Sue, a voter from Queensland, appealed to the High Court of Australia, sitting in its capacity as the Court of Disputed Returns. Chief Justice Murray Gleeson ruled that the United Kingdom qualified as a "foreign power" under section 44(i), and as a British citizen Hill was therefore unable to take up her Senate seat. As a result, Len Harris, the second One Nation party candidate on the ballot, was elected and took Hill's place in the Senate.

[Chucaro]

AND, more Russian, via the Romanov's, old Queen Victoria spread her daughters around Europe, by goodness. The mad German stuffed it all up, in the end. Bob
:angel:

Add to the salad the one that born in Greece :)

[AndyG]

Not to mention those pesky Normans back in 1066, still hanging around

[Chucaro]

Any genes from Erik The Red or Erikson ? :p

[TerryO]

I heard Tony was really born in Kenya and he is actually a Muslim and Obama was actually born in England and is secretly C of E. ...:angel:

[303gunner]

born in one, swear to another. and not all country s require you to swear
I think the Australian Naturalisation Ceremony requires you to face a portrait of the Queen of Australia and declare:


"Strike me roan!", "Stone the flamin' crows!", and "Oath I'm an Aussie!".

[85 county]

I think the Australian Naturalisation Ceremony requires you to face a portrait of the Queen of Australia and declare:


"Strike me roan!", "Stone the flamin' crows!", and "Oath I'm an Aussie!".

and who is that guy with the bat? badman or something like that.

my point was born in pommyland so he didn't swear to the queen until he came here. but as he came as a kid, he would not of had to do that ether.

so he has sworn to no country, just like 68% of all other aussie citz

[DiscoMick]

I häve been to lots of Australian citizenship ceremonies and never seen a picture of the Queen of Australia or England. Its just swear the oath of allegience to Australia.
http://www.citizenship.gov.au/ceremonies/pledge/

I have no idea if this story is for real or bogus, but Abbott could kill it off in a blink by producing proof he has renounced his British citizenship. The longer he fails to clear the air, the more suspicious it looks that he could be hiding the truth.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[BMKal]

I häve been to lots of Australian citizenship ceremonies and never seen a picture of the Queen of Australia or England. Its just swear the oath of allegience to Australia.
Australian Citizenship – Australian Citizenship pledge (http://www.citizenship.gov.au/ceremonies/pledge/)

I have no idea if this story is for real or bogus, but Abbott could kill it off in a blink by producing proof he has renounced his British citizenship. The longer he fails to clear the air, the more suspicious it looks that he could be hiding the truth.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

Ummmm ................ why would he bother.

I'm sure if I were in his situation, I wouldn't. ;)

Who cares about some beat up story in the trash press. Why give these tossers any credibility by responding to them.

Pretty sure that if he were doing something wrong in this respect, the opposition would be all over it.

[DiscoMick]

I'll bet they're all over it now. How do you prove a document doesn't exist?

[Redback]

Not to mention the Welsh, especially the red haired, lying, backstabbing females of the world.

Not thinking of any one in particular :angel:

BTW, it's Norman in origan, not Welsh, but the disrespect she got was downright disscusting, especially given her position at the time, yet this currant person doesn't, I don't get it.

I will never ever disrespect any leaders of this country, regardless of their gender or whether how much of a **** they are, I don't believe she was as bad as everyone makes out.

Oh and Billy Hughes was English

Baz.

[DiscoMick]

I suppose the other question is, would we really care if we had a Brit. as our PM? I mean, we already have a Brit. as our head of state. Apparently we're too subservient and lacking in independence to insist on having our own top dogs and are content to import them, like good little apathetic colonials. Crack another tinny, throw the steaks on the barby and let's just let someone else worry about everything, eh?


Let's just abolish our Federal Government, which would save an enormous amount, have our state governments report directly to London, and accept David Cameron as our PM. After all, when the Scots vote to secede from the UK, there might be some space left for us to surrender our independence, admit we got it all wrong and go back to being second-class poms.


Its not as if they could be much worse than the mobs who have had a go at running the place recently, is it?

[Redback]

I don't care where he comes from, just as long as they do a good job, so far I'm not seeing it.

Vote yes Scotland:cool:

[Chivalry]

There isn't really any term appropriate for what he is. He resembles a chimpanzee but does not show the same level of intellect or social aptitude as one.

I regret ignoring him and not shouting out my opinion of him as he walked by me at Sydney airport in January last year. However it was nice to see that nobody else said anything to him as he passed dozens of people, everybody ignored him.

[London Boy]

They do love him over there, more than their own.

so if he was to lose the next election, I reckon he'd get the gig back there.

The election of Australia's new PM Tony Abbott is clear evidence that genuine conservative policies can win elections | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2415635/The-election-Australias-new-PM-Tony-Abbott-clear-evidence-genuine-conservative-policies-win-elections.html)

Good grief, you're not taking the Mail as any kind of evidence are you? It's worse than the Courier Mail.

[Greatsouthernland]

Good grief, you're not taking the Mail as any kind of evidence are you? It's worse than the Courier Mail.

By gee by jingo by crikey, no.

I wouldnt have a clue :eek: I bundle all internet news, or mainstream media into the factual category. Life's too short for conspiracy theorising :( or reliability issues with the media.

Mail, Courier mail, sunday mail, daily mail, blackmail all the same to me :cool:

Probably all run by the CIaye/ Rupert/ Pope/ iluminaughty anyway... :angel: :wasntme:

[Greatsouthernland]

I suppose the other question is, would we really care if we had a Brit. as our PM? I mean, we already have a Brit. as our head of state. Apparently we're too subservient and lacking in independence to insist on having our own top dogs and are content to import them, like good little apathetic colonials. Crack another tinny, throw the steaks on the barby and let's just let someone else worry about everything, eh?


Let's just abolish our Federal Government, which would save an enormous amount, have our state governments report directly to London, and accept David Cameron as our PM. After all, when the Scots vote to secede from the UK, there might be some space left for us to surrender our independence, admit we got it all wrong and go back to being second-class poms.


Its not as if they could be much worse than the mobs who have had a go at running the place recently, is it?

When were we independent? I thought being in the Commonwealth meant we were under the ownership of ER...current parliament is just a holding pattern for the royals and their holiday visits.

In the end, the gov general has a yak to liz and if old blighty wants to regain total day to day control, cosgrove will turf the current mob of yobbos out and your mate Dave will take over.

But as always, DYOR ;)

[DiscoMick]

Yes, it's funny how we Aussies like to carry on about how independent and free we are, but actually, legally, we're just a colonial outpost. People from countries which have fought to gain their freedom must look at us and shake their heads...
Of course, if we're happy just being a colonial outpost, then so be it. Light the Barbie!
At least we're an outpost of a country which makes the best 4WDs. It would be worse if we were a Yankee outpost and had to drive Jeeps!

[Ausfree]

Yes, it's funny how we Aussies like to carry on about how independent and free we are, but actually, legally, we're just a colonial outpost. People from countries which have fought to gain their freedom must look at us and shake their heads...
Of course, if we're happy just being a colonial outpost, then so be it. Light the Barbie!
At least we're an outpost of a country which makes the best 4WDs. It would be worse if we were a Yankee outpost and had to drive Jeeps!

Well I guess that would be better than being a Japanese Outpost. We nearly were in WW2. Then we might have been all driving Toyonisso's.:o

Oops, sorry the majority on the road ARE Toyonisso's, silly me!!:p

[DiscoMick]

Here's a link to the article in which the blogger explains why he investigated this issue, including copies of documents, so you can see it for yourself.
Not a birther (http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/not-a-birther,6866)
If Abbott is wrong in apparently believing that becoming an Australian citizen in 1981 automatically cancelled his British citizenship, then it means he signed a false affidavit when he applied for enrolment as an election candidate, and everything he has done since election is null and void, so there are big issues here, if this is correct.
Interesting...

[85 county]

Here's a link to the article in which the blogger explains why he investigated this issue, including copies of documents, so you can see it for yourself.
Not a birther (http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/not-a-birther,6866)
If Abbott is wrong in apparently believing that becoming an Australian citizen in 1981 automatically cancelled his British citizenship, then it means he signed a false affidavit when he applied for enrolment as an election candidate, and everything he has done since election is null and void, so there are big issues here, if this is correct.
Interesting...

AAAHHH DiscoMick, Australian Law, if he signed an affidavit believing is was correct then even if it was not correct. this is no crime.
If he signed and affidavit KNOWINGLY that it was wrong, then that is a crime.

so your job is to prove that in 1981 he did knowingly sign an affidavit Knowing it to be incorrect.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Actually you're all wrong, he is a secret muslim and was born in Kenya!

Haven't we all heard these conspiracies before.

[DiscoMick]

AAAHHH DiscoMick, Australian Law, if he signed an affidavit believing is was correct then even if it was not correct. this is no crime.
If he signed and affidavit KNOWINGLY that it was wrong, then that is a crime.

so your job is to prove that in 1981 he did knowingly sign an affidavit Knowing it to be incorrect.

True re. intent but, if a Brit. citizen, he would still be disqualified from a seat in our parliament.
Anyway, its a good conspiracy theory if nothing else.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[DiscoMick]

More coverage too, but still no actual proof that Tony did renounce his Australian citizenship.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/show-us-your-citizenship-why-the-tony-abbott-birthers-want-to-believe

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[frantic]

AAAHHH DiscoMick, Australian Law, if he signed an affidavit believing is was correct then even if it was not correct. this is no crime.
If he signed and affidavit KNOWINGLY that it was wrong, then that is a crime.

so your job is to prove that in 1981 he did knowingly sign an affidavit Knowing it to be incorrect.

Just want to get this correct? If he doesn't know the law he's not committing a crime?
Umm I didn't know the speed limit had changed from 90 to 70 officer/judge,would many if any of us get off?
A lot of people, myself included, have used the line "the limit used to be" and still got booked.
I'm sure there was a line that went "in relation to the law, ignorance is no excuse":twisted:

[85 county]

Just want to get this correct? If he doesn't know the law he's not committing a crime?
Umm I didn't know the speed limit had changed from 90 to 70 officer/judge,would many if any of us get off?
A lot of people, myself included, have used the line "the limit used to be" and still got booked.
I'm sure there was a line that went "in relation to the law, ignorance is no excuse":twisted:

Yes, and you are distorting things. and affidavit is signing or attestation to what you believe to be at the time. the Law says BELIEVE !!!!!!!!

"Ignorance is no excuse" is NOT Australian Law, it is enshrined in no Australian act to the best of my Knowledge.

As to your example of speeding, then it is up to you to show that is was reasonable for you NOT to know the speed limit. the assumption being is that the speed limit was posted and that you are an alert driver.
2 years ago I got off a speeding ticket 57 klm in a 50 zone in a hick town. i showed that it was a windy day, the 50 klm sign was next to a tree and down wind so it could have been covered by branches blowing in the wind. The sign was placed on the outside of a curve where eyes natural look inside a curve in the road. The judge stated but i was entering a hick town so i should reasonably assume that there was a limited speed zone, i agreed and pointed out that the two previous hick towns on the same road had zones of 60klm and not 50 klm.
Sort of ends your argument really

[BathurstTom]

Yes, and you are distorting things. and affidavit is signing or attestation to what you believe to be at the time. the Law says BELIEVE !!!!!!!!

"Ignorance is no excuse" is NOT Australian Law, it is enshrined in no Australian act to the best of my Knowledge.

As to your example of speeding, then it is up to you to show that is was reasonable for you NOT to know the speed limit. the assumption being is that the speed limit was posted and that you are an alert driver.
2 years ago I got off a speeding ticket 57 klm in a 50 zone in a hick town. i showed that it was a windy day, the 50 klm sign was next to a tree and down wind so it could have been covered by branches blowing in the wind. The sign was placed on the outside of a curve where eyes natural look inside a curve in the road. The judge stated but i was entering a hick town so i should reasonably assume that there was a limited speed zone, i agreed and pointed out that the two previous hick towns on the same road had zones of 60klm and not 50 klm.
Sort of ends your argument really

If he had a British passport at the time as part of dual citizenship, then he knowingly and deliberately lied. What passport did he use for his stay in Oxford?

Tom.

[frantic]

Yes, and you are distorting things. and affidavit is signing or attestation to what you believe to be at the time. the Law says BELIEVE !!!!!!!!

"Ignorance is no excuse" is NOT Australian Law, it is enshrined in no Australian act to the best of my Knowledge.

As to your example of speeding, then it is up to you to show that is was reasonable for you NOT to know the speed limit. the assumption being is that the speed limit was posted and that you are an alert driver.
2 years ago I got off a speeding ticket 57 klm in a 50 zone in a hick town. i showed that it was a windy day, the 50 klm sign was next to a tree and down wind so it could have been covered by branches blowing in the wind. The sign was placed on the outside of a curve where eyes natural look inside a curve in the road. The judge stated but i was entering a hick town so i should reasonably assume that there was a limited speed zone, i agreed and pointed out that the two previous hick towns on the same road had zones of 60klm and not 50 klm.
Sort of ends your argument really
My example, was fine, if you got off, good luck. ;) in another thread a few of our kiwi cousins got busted for cooking possum stew, they got let off for ignorance also but it doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed.
Now we have a person who wants to make laws in our country and may not have understood them?
It would be more like you trying to argue ignorance in your example, if you where the RTA planner who set the speed limit last month and dug the sign post hole, for the hick town you got busted in.:twisted:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yes, and you are distorting things. and affidavit is signing or attestation to what you believe to be at the time. the Law says BELIEVE !!!!!!!!

"Ignorance is no excuse" is NOT Australian Law, it is enshrined in no Australian act to the best of my Knowledge....
The Law is the Law and to be obeyed irrespective of whether you knew about any particular Law or not. That is what is meant by the phrase "Ignorance is no excuse".

If I don't know that murder is illegal, it doesn't mean that I can go around killing people on a whim.

That people get charges dismissed in a local court by a magistrate is merely luck or that the magistrate was feeling good or took pity on you. It bears no relevance to belief or ignorance of laws, because local courts are not ruled by legal precedence. The beak can make any ruling they see fits the case. Mostly when someone receives a dismissal in a local court what usually happens is that the defendant is found guilty of the offence and then the charge is dismissed under some section of the Law.

It is why many cases of a more serious nature skip the local court and head straight to the district or supreme court where they are governed by Law and legal precedence.

[DiscoMick]

The other point is that Abbott has been repeatedly elected to parliament, so he would have to claim that he repeatedly made the same mistake. What judge would swallow that, I wonder?


Anyway, the matter is dead easy for the PM to settle - just produce the RN document to reveal if and when he renounced his British citizenship.


This writer suggests the reason the FOI requests have been blocked may be that Abbott only recently renounced his British citizenship, meaning he was illegally in parliament for many years, and is covering up the lapse. Who would know? This is an example of how saying nothing can let a story run away from you.


Time for Abbott to stop fudging on the citizenship issue (http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/tiad-of-fudging-on-the-citizenship-issue,6882)


Remember, if this explodes in Abbott's face, you read it here on good old AULRO. Ha!

[bob10]

I'm not even sure he's human......:angel:

[85 county]

My example, was fine, if you got off, good luck. ;)

No it is not good luck it is knowing the law and how it is applied. the Law is not what many people assume it to be.



[QUOTE=frantic;2222602]in another thread a few of our kiwi cousins got busted for cooking possum stew, they got let off for ignorance also but it doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed. :

Quite true, a crime was committed. But to be charged and convicted requires a complaint to the police. Or if local bylaws apply possibly a fine. In this case a donation of possum skin and a good feed was deemed sufficient.


Now we have a person who wants to make laws in our country and may not have understood them? :

interesting point. while most people stuff up because we are not all trained lawyers etc. a pollie we hold to a much higher standard or standards, add to that he has had access to teams of officials and lawyers etc etc, so if it is true, then hang the bugger


It would be more like you trying to argue ignorance in your example, if you where the RTA planner who set the speed limit last month and dug the sign post hole, for the hick town you got busted in.:twisted:

quite true 100%

[85 county]

The Law is the Law and to be obeyed irrespective of whether you knew about any particular Law or not. That is what is meant by the phrase "Ignorance is no excuse". .

And that is my point, reasonable excuse is not dismissing the action. But avoids the penalty. And as I said “Ignorance is no excuse” is NOT enshrined in Australian Law. BUT reasonable explanation or good reason IS. IE an ambulance driver speeding or running a read light etc.


If I don't know that murder is illegal, it doesn't mean that I can go around killing people on a whim.

Killing people on a whim, is illegal. But not all murder is illegal, a Cap with a gun and a bad guy with a gun. Is that Murder. Accidental death is that murder?

.[/QUOTE]

[85 county]

The other point is that Abbott has been repeatedly elected to parliament, so he would have to claim that he repeatedly made the same mistake. What judge would swallow that, I wonder? !

I doubt it very much, the judge would be fuming.



Anyway, the matter is dead easy for the PM to settle - just produce the RN document to reveal if and when he renounced his British citizenship. !


But and thank God that is not how Australian law works, other wise we would have every tom dick and harry inventing storeys and even one would be spending all there time and money defending themselves.
The way to do it is take the evidence, put a case together, the approach the federal police, signing a fouls afidavit. If they are not interested then file for a civil or private hearing.
The person or persons making all the noise on this topic is nothing but a troll smearing mud and a propagandist. The system is there to be used, if this person is not using the correct tools/ procedures then he is in my opinion full of crap.
The system is there, use it, and guess what its even FREE

[DiscoMick]

Another week has passed and still no response from Abbott to kill off this speculation that he has never renounced his British citizenship and therefore is banned from being a member of parliament in Australia.


Either he's so arrogant he thinks this will go away if he ignores it, or the accusation is correct and he has been caught out. If it's not true, then why not just release the proof and end the speculation?


In the story below the writer defends the idea of dual nationality with comments which I generally agree with, but then gets slammed by the responders who make it clear the law is the law and Abbott has to obey it, just like everyone else.


The 'birther' barrier is holding Parliament back - The Drum (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-16/wyeth-the-birther-barrier-is-holding-parliament-back/5744556)

[ramblingboy42]

Well? Is he or not?

[85 county]

Well? Is he or not?


he is australian untill proven othere wise.

it is not a requirement of any australian to respond to speculation.

if it is true, and someone has some evidence then thay should aproch the federal police with such information/ evidence.

if such a person has not done so, and is running around publishing such information then thay may be liable.

so DiscoMick could fined himself behind bars

[ramblingboy42]

oh dear 85 county, do you really think Dave and our moderators would allow this forum to be subject to the legal rubbish you are going on about.....do you?

[85 county]

oh dear 85 county, do you really think Dave and our moderators would allow this forum to be subject to the legal rubbish you are going on about.....do you?


LOL nope exaggerating to make a point, besides unlike Russia the mods are not liable for what posters post. only possibly liable for not doing anything about it. duty of care, criminal stuff not civil stuff

[bob10]

Does any one really care? There is much more to concern us than this bull****. Bob

[London Boy]

And as I said “Ignorance is no excuse” is NOT enshrined in Australian Law.
Yes it is. It has always been a part of the common law, and where the criminal law is codified it is part of the code.

For Queensland, see Criminal Code s22(1) "Ignorance of the law does not constitute any excuse for any act or omission which would otherwise constitute an offence, unless knowledge of the law by the offender is expressly declared to be an element of the offence".

Your state, if it is not Queensland, will have a similar provision in statute or precedent.

[DiscoMick]

There's nothing libelous in this thread, these are legitimate questions.
The question isn't about whether he's Australian, it's about whether he's also British and owes allegiance to another country.
Also about whether he lied on his electoral nomination form when he stood for parliament in 1994 or at subsequent elections. If he did lie and has deceived the country, then that would be a VERY important criminal matter.
If he had renounced his British citizenship he should be able to produce the form and clear this up in five minutes flat. Refusing an FOI request for the proof just makes him look like he's hiding something.
It's happened before. Eric Abetz was a German citizen when elected and had to renounce it quick smart. He's not the only one either.
The law is the law - even for the Prime Minister. The issue rolls on, festering away.


Rulz is rulz ? whether you're Joe Blow, Jill Dill or PM Tony Abbott (http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/rulz-is-rulz-whether-you-are-joe-blow-jill-dill-or-pm-of-australia,6904)

[shanegtr]

One would like to think a major political party would do their own checks on a potential member that they are wishing to nominate as their leader - especially a political party that stands a chance of having said leader put into the PM position?.

[DiscoMick]

You would think so, but it's happened before.


This whole thing could be a lot of hot air, but refusing the FOI request made it look more credible.