Off grid solar 240Volt for house appliances

[DeeJay]

Just pondering a possibility
I have solar with mains feed In tariff, but we seem to use most of the power ourselves - we are obviously on mains
I have room for quite a few solar panels at my house & am wondering whether it would be legal to run a bank of AGM batteries in my shed ( I can get 105 amp 3-4 year old ones @$35.00 ea) and put them in to a good quality controller & pure sine inverter (or 2) & then get an electrician in to put a second switchboard & run wires & put 240 volt plugs in my Laundry & Kitchen. These would be quite independent from the mains & I guess if solar ran out or low, then we would need to unplug the appliances from solar & plug back in to mains until we got the mix right.
I know the obvious solution is to upgrade the existing solar, but the area for the panels is probably too far away & upgrading the controller would be exxy.
This way I could do all the brackets, solar panels & low voltage wiring.
Anybody seen this done?


Thanks,
David

[austastar]

Hi,
The installer who did my neighbour's house said he has his 240V lighting independant of the 240V solar/grid connection as the first step of getting off the grid all together.

Some inverters can handle charging batteries as well, so you could 'cross subsidise' the supply in deficit.

Cheers

[Homestar]

What sort of appliances do you want to run off them? If your thinking the washer and dryer and using them off the solar only when the sun is out, then all well and good, but outside of that your batteries wouldn't last 5 minutes. So, in that case, you're better off just using your existing grid connected solar - it's already there.

Whatever batteries and inverter you buy, it's doubtful the costs will make it viable. Living off grid - completely - is a lifestyle choice and sacrifices would have to be made - like not using a dryer, AC or other high demand appliances again.

If you want to run a few batteries and panels to run your lights at night, then that's a more achievable goal if you are still going to have your power from the grid as well. :)

[bee utey]

The quality of inverter you need for hard wiring to the house would probably cost more than you'd ever save. However you could do what I did and run a whole bunch of 12V LED downlights around the house on their own battery powered circuit, quite legally. If you actually did wire a suitable inverter to the house I'd get it wired direct to your existing power board with a changeover switch so that a number of circuits can be run at once. I believe you could even get an automatic changeover switch.

[Mick_Marsh]

The quality of inverter you need for hard wiring to the house would probably cost more than you'd ever save. However you could do what I did and run a whole bunch of 12V LED downlights around the house on their own battery powered circuit, quite legally. If you actually did wire a suitable inverter to the house I'd get it wired direct to your existing power board with a changeover switch so that a number of circuits can be run at once. I believe you could even get an automatic changeover switch.
An ATS for single phase domestic supply is quite expensive. The 12V lighting would be the way to go. You might use a separate 240V AC circuit on an inverter in the garage perhaps.

[DeeJay]

Thanks for the replies
What I originally planned was to simply run an extension cord in to the garage & run my pressure pump. It is a 5.8 amp 1250 watt or half horsepower Onga. That & my computer.
The pump only runs for a max of 45 minutes a day spread over 24hours. I have already bought 8x 105 Amp batteries @ $35.00 Each & now have only 160 watt in panels all up but more to come. That would be enough to keep me happy.
Before the better half made me see reason, I wanted to trial run an extension lead in to the laundry & run the washer - 600 watt motor- & freezer- 190watt, Dryer would be a no no, its 2350 watt& see how long the batteries lasted, but if the sparky came out, then maybe get him to also wire in a kitchen set of power points for microwave, fridge, toaster & kettle, it would be a case of not using two appliances together - apart from the fridge.
For another $280 I can get another 840 amps of storage, which should power the fridge & freezer through the night very easily.


Any power I can save during the day should theoretically feed back in to the grid @ 30c a KW. I do own 3 Land Rovers so my cost Vs benefit radar is shot anyway. I overspent on Tank water but the rates went up to beggary & my payback sums went from 14 years to paid off after 6 years. Maybe that might happen here??


So the replies indicate I would have a problem having a second circuit independent of mains for some power outlets in the house?


At present, I'm only running this computer that uses 480watts,- up to 5 hours a day but the batteries charge up OK & I only have 2x 80 watt panels hooked up atm.
Regards,
David

[Mick_Marsh]

Any power I can save during the day should theoretically feed back in to the grid @ 30c a KW.
Who's paying 30c/kWh?
For selling back into the grid 8c/kWh is the price nowdays.

[spudboy]

We get 44 cents a Kw for anything we feed back into the grid (South Australian Govt subsidy through TXU I think).

[spudboy]

...
So the replies indicate I would have a problem having a second circuit independent of mains for some power outlets in the house?
...

If you have a 2nd 240v circuit independent of the mains you'll be fine.

How far is the place you are generating the power, from where you'll be using the power? You'll have to think about the voltage drop between them. Use the 240v to do distances, not the 12v, or you will need enormous cables to stop the voltage drop in the 12v side of things.

Give it a go and let us know how you get on :)

[bee utey]

We get 44 cents a Kw for anything we feed back into the grid (South Australian Govt subsidy through TXU I think).
So long as you don't upgrade your solar to feed in more than what the original approval is for. Separate solar circuits would be fine.

[Mick_Marsh]

We get 44 cents a Kw for anything we feed back into the grid (South Australian Govt subsidy through TXU I think).
I know people who get 60c/kWh but for new installations in Victoria, the feed in tariff is only 8c/kWh.

[Vern]

Deejay, have you checked the legalities on what you plan to do? This will need to be inspected by am electrical inspected and signed off by a Sparky. Yeah you can just chuck the solar and batteries on, but if something goes wrong. The regulations in the solar industry are pretty high these days, you should see all the stuff we have to do now.:(.
But, I do recall a reg once that if the system was less than 500watts it didn't need to be signed off, this I'm not sure about any, more as I don't do off grid stuff that small.

[DeeJay]

Who's paying 30c/kWh?
For selling back into the grid 8c/kWh is the price nowadays.


My house solar was installed in July 2012 & at that time & up till now, Red energy have been crediting 30c Kw off my power bill for any excess fed back in to the grid. I assume that will be a limited agreement & will now check in to it.
So you can see the economics of my thinking, if I could run a couple of power points in the house as an off grid electrician installed & approved arrangement, it would increase the feedback from my solar installed in 2012.
What I'm now thinking after reading the feedback is a 2 stage arrangement- as I'm already part committed- of having my shed/ man cave & LED lighting in my garage plus a few LED path & carport sensor lights running off the existing shed solar & having a company come in & install/ upgrade my 3kw house system to a 8-10 kw system once I end up only getting credited 8c k/w, whenever that may be. According to some websites, the Melb payback is 4.9% on current electricity rates.
I've attached a Google Earth picture - obviously taken before June 2012 and roughly drawn in my current solar panels. The tree in the back yard has gone & I will soon have about 5 panels on the shed roof. I intend to build a 11mx3m woodpile/ shed along my fence line & have the second fully fledged solar panels installed there. It would take about a 25m run, using existing structures, from the end of the proposed array back to the existing controller. Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1358.jpg

[jsp]

I have just been through the process of putting some power into a shack.

You can use a domestic pure sinewave inverter and run a few things straight from it, including extension cords and power blocks, which is all I do. But the second you hard wire something, which could be as simple as you running a permanent cable from the shed to the house, its got to be sparky done/approved.

I don't know that its reached a price performance point yet to be worth doing it. I only put in a small of grid system as it was cheaper than getting the mains put on, and the fact I only want to use it once a month and if I was mains connected im paying supply charges all the time.

it may seem like a good cheap alternative if you can get cheap batteries, cheap panels and a cheap inverter, but there's a bit of money to invest in having the correct cabling at the low voltage side on panels/batteries. Also the time that goes into ensuing batteries are properly vented/insulated etc.

[DeeJay]

Who's paying 30c/kWh?
For selling back into the grid 8c/kWh is the price nowadays.++


Mick,
I did some research & it looks like I am on the transitional tariff & will be for another couple of years :cool:


So I'll stick with the simple idea of running 12 lighting & my computer from the 4 panels I will soon have on my shed roof.
If I were to do anything that requires an electrical certificate I fear I will give my provider a reason to drop me out of the current agreement & I would go from 33cents ( incl GST) to 8c k/watt.
I got all my bills & added things up- my 3kw house system has been worth $1100 P.A. all up to me since installation.- cost $6250 so it should be 70% repaid at end of transition.


This is what I found about the deal I'm on.


Transitional Feed-in Tariff

The Transitional Feed-in Tariff replaced the Premium Feed-in Tariff in 2011 and closed to new customers on 31 December 2012.
This scheme offered eligible properties with small-scale solar PV systems of five kilowatts or less a minimum credit of 25 cents per kilowatt hour for excess electricity fed back into the grid.
Existing customers

Eligible premises with an effective Transitional Feed-in Tariff contract in place will continue to receive this rate until 31 December 2016, provided they remain eligible.
Switching electricity retailers

You are able to switch electricity retailers or contracts and continue to receive the transitional rate once you have established your eligibility. Before switching, check if there are any exit fees under your existing contract.
Adding new panels

You will become ineligible to continue receiving the transitional rate if you add additional solar panels to your existing system, boosting your generating capacity after scheme closure, even if the overall system size remains 5 kilowatts or under. This ensures the cost of the scheme for all Victorians does not increase.
If you have an oversized inverter (for example, a four kilowatt inverter with 1.5 kilowatts of solar panels) you will still forfeit your access to the transitional rate if you upgrade your existing generation capacity after scheme closure. The existing generating capacity is based on the total nameplate capacity of the panels as measured under standard conditions by the manufacturer.
If you would like to install additional panels and forfeit your Transitional rate of 25 cents, you may instead be eligible to apply for the new feed-in tariff (http://www.energyandresources.vic.gov.au/energy/environment-and-community/victorian-feed-in-tariff-schemes/new-feed-in-tariff) arrangements set at a minimum of 8 cents per kilowatt hour for 2013 and to be reset by the Essential Services Commission on an annual basis for 2014, 2015 and 2016.
Replacing damaged panels

You can replace existing panels for maintenance reasons, for example, due to storm or fire damage, without losing the Transitional Feed-in Tariff. You just need to make sure the replacement panels do not exceed the original generating capacity of your system.
Renovation/demolition of house

You can remove your solar panels due to renovations or the demolition of a house without forfeiting the TFIT. Under the TFIT, as long as the capacity of your solar panels post-renovation/demolition is equal to, or less than, the capacity before the renovation/demolition, you can maintain your eligibility. Additionally, the solar PV system must continue to be net-metered after the work has been completed. ‘Net-metered’ means that the electricity generated by the solar PV system at the property is offset by the electricity consumed at the property. For residential properties, the newly renovated or constructed house will still need to be your primary place of residence.
There may be a requirement for you or your installer to re-lodge the Certificate of Electrical Safety (http://www.energyandresources.vic.gov.au/energy/environment-and-community/victorian-feed-in-tariff-schemes/Whats-Involved-in-Going-Solar/paperwork-for-buying-solar-panels/certificate-of-electrical-safety) with the distribution business after the panels have been reinstalled. There may also be a requirement for other paperwork to be re-lodged including the solar connection form (http://www.energyandresources.vic.gov.au/energy/environment-and-community/victorian-feed-in-tariff-schemes/Whats-Involved-in-Going-Solar/paperwork-for-buying-solar-panels) and the Electrical Works Request (http://www.energyandresources.vic.gov.au/energy/environment-and-community/victorian-feed-in-tariff-schemes/Whats-Involved-in-Going-Solar/paperwork-for-buying-solar-panels/electrical-work-request). We advise that you check with the relevant distribution business regarding this.
Moving house

The transitional rate is linked to the property where the solar panels are installed, so when moving house you cannot take the Transitional Feed-in Tariff with you. Similarly, any house which is signed up to the transitional scheme will remain eligible until 2016, even if the house is sold and new residents move in, provided it remains the principal place of residence.

[DT-P38]

What sort of appliances do you want to run off them? If your thinking the washer and dryer and using them off the solar only when the sun is out, then all well and good, but outside of that your batteries wouldn't last 5 minutes. So, in that case, you're better off just using your existing grid connected solar - it's already there.

Whatever batteries and inverter you buy, it's doubtful the costs will make it viable. Living off grid - completely - is a lifestyle choice and sacrifices would have to be made - like not using a dryer, AC or other high demand appliances again.

If you want to run a few batteries and panels to run your lights at night, then that's a more achievable goal if you are still going to have your power from the grid as well. :)

Hey DeeJay,

Not that I have solar yet but I would have thought:

- Forget the appliances at night... run them when the sun can run them;

- Closed freezers and fridges should keep temp overnight on all but the hottest of nights. Help by stopping weekly purchases of highly perishables or sensitive stuff and only buy it on the day you will eat it. Go to the butcher, eat fresh fruit and veg more and stop freezing/refrigerating stuff. We run fridges to store stuff at home these days but spend more on running the fridge/freezer/chest freezer than what it costs to drop in at the shops on the way home from work. I am pretty sure you don't live more than a five minute drive to the local supermarket.

- Forget the heating, microwave and kettle. You have a wood shed, get a potbelly and leave stuff like a kettle, coffee pot and warm nibbles sitting on it keeping hot/warm - bit of a lifestyle change, but google what you can do with a potbelly... you will be amazed at what our lazy, consumer driven, society has forgotten already. e.g. pretty sure there is a hut out in the Alpine National Park (at the end of Army track) that runs copper around the potbelly to heat hot water for the shower. I would bet there are a million and one snacks, drinks, meals, uses, that a pot belly can do well.

- Forget AC... use windows (yes they all open!), install fans and use water filled spray bottles on hot nights. On stinkers stay at the local Motel or pay for a night or two of AC at home.

- Use the battery off grid (expand a bit from where you are at) at night for LED lighting, running and topping up low draw entertainment stuff (solid state tablets, netbooks ultrabook's, and LED TV's).

Just a few thought bubbles...

Dave

[DT-P38]

double post... sorry

[austastar]

Hi,
I have a 5kW system installed, and can't add to it without losing my 28c buyback tarrif.
If the price of panels were to significantly drop further, I would consider just connecting the electric element in the hot water system to a new set of panels just for summer use, as we normally heat the water from a wet back fuel stove.
It would have to compete with acost of a 20L bucket of wood everysecond night to be considered though.
Cheers

[rocket scientist]

Living on a solar power system requires a change of thinking in how you use power. We have been on a stand alone system for 12 years.
As mentioned by others, use the big appliances when the sun is out. (Overcast, pouring rain as I type :mad: ).

The biggest drain of power for us is the TV running at night. LED tvs are more efficient but still a long way to go.

We have a separate 12v system for the LED lights throughout the house, which works really well. I think this would be great for any house on the grid. When the power goes out at least you still have lights.:)

Pete.

[JDNSW]

Living on a solar power system requires a change of thinking in how you use power. We have been on a stand alone system for 12 years.
As mentioned by others, use the big appliances when the sun is out. (Overcast, pouring rain as I type :mad: ).

The biggest drain of power for us is the TV running at night. LED tvs are more efficient but still a long way to go.

We have a separate 12v system for the LED lights throughout the house, which works really well. I think this would be great for any house on the grid. When the power goes out at least you still have lights.:)

Pete.

I have been on standalone for twenty years. In my case the biggest power users are the Fridge and Freezer, and the NBN satellite modem. Lighting is nearly all CF, but the house is designed so that most of the time you don't need lights in daylight.

Problems arise when the grandkids are here - four laptops add up on the power, and they watch a lot more TV than I do. And they don't switch lights off.

John

[rocket scientist]

I have been on standalone for twenty years. In my case the biggest power users are the Fridge and Freezer, and the NBN satellite modem. Lighting is nearly all CF, but the house is designed so that most of the time you don't need lights in daylight.

Problems arise when the grandkids are here - four laptops add up on the power, and they watch a lot more TV than I do. And they don't switch lights off.

John

I where you're coming from, but don't despair, they can be trained.
My kids are now very efficient power users.
What works is removing their light globes and the aerial connection! :angel::wasntme:

[Discodance]

We have been stand alone for over 6 years now using only a very basic solar system and a rather old battery bank .
It has been interesting to say the least .

We have always run a back up generator though , so when ever the power goes out , I just power it up.

The funny thing , although some what frustrating some days , is that the smaller farms over the road have power and the pole for us to connect too is just across the road .. That can be some what of a temptation when our power goes out .
We chose to be stand alone and I even cut the phone line in to the property.

As for the grand kids of which between myself and my partner , we have 17 , they just get told straight up that things are how they are !!! and to suck it in , but nearly every time , my kids ( the parents of all these little monsters:D crack up ) and I wind up caving and firing the gen up .. lolol

No matter how strange people may think living off the grid may be , personally I would have it no other way .
No dependence on anything out side my property , is just how we love it !


cheers
Steve