P38 front locker

[blindin]

Hi, I know there is already a decent thread on this, but would like some fresh opinions as I believe some of the info is out of date.
I've been looking for options to lock the front diff, and it appears there is a limited chose:

ARB AIR LOCKER ( plus their compressor if you want warranty )
$1200 plus fitting ($450) + compressor(180 small or $330 big for tyres too )

EATON E-LOCKER $ 2200 supplied and fitted ( $1600 supply only I think )

ASHCROFT AIR LOCKER $ 1000 supply

KAM LOCKER, I think these have been discontinued as I have been unable to find a supplier, also up at $1800, and fitting may be expensive as I think the axel needs to be cut and welded to fit the front cover.

These are the only ones I have found other than atb's ( ashcroft at $600, truetrac, and qualify, which I'm not sure are available.
Kam do a clutch LSD, and LSD/ locker.

Detroit unlocked, which I personally would not consider, nor would I use in the front.

The jack macanara stuff no available
Pro locker not available
Maxi drive not available

Not sure if I'm missing any thing.

So what's your opinions on the lockers which are available, I've never had one, so have no knowledge of any of them.
I keep hearing from suppliers that the eaton e locker would be a good choose, but almost 50% more expensive than an arb! is it worth it? Plus 5 yr warranty with arb.
The ashcroft locker about the same as arb.

[Pete38]

I can help with the Ashcroft as I have one in the rear. Supposedly a better/stronger locker than the ARB and cheaper. I can't personally endorse that although it has had a good working for over 12 months, but there are many reports this being the case on the internet.

I used the onboard air for the locker with a cheap little regulator and would advise going this path rather than buying an ARB pump.

In the front I am looking at an Ahscroft ATB so steering is mostly unaffected and MUCH better on sand or soft materials for turning.

[blindin]

Thanks, I've seen the atb's at work, but my thought behind a selectable locker is that it is only locked when you want it, I doubt I'd use it on sand, and although I really like the idea, I am thinking it's only going to be used when I lift a wheel, then to make use of it, I would then need to use the brakes, so then I lose the tc on the rear axel. Spending the money to get drive to a front wheel, to lose it in the back wheel doesn't make sense to me. I may go the ashcroft when money permits. Do you know if there is a supplier her in Australia, or does it have to come from ashcrofts?

[Pete38]

I see your point about dealing with the front first. It slipped my mind that the earlier P38's didn't have TC in the front. Makes some sense now you mention it as it helps the lack of TC in the front. And without the TC in the front the ATB won't work quite as well so a locker will likely be a big improvement.

Also, one thing that is making me hesitate about the ATB in the front is the understeer. They supposedly aren't very noticeable but it it a minor concern for me. Where a locker does nothing at all unless its turned on.

I sourced mine from Ashcroft themselves and not sure of anyone here that sells them (and if they do there is likely a markup on them). Off memory Ashcroft were very prompt with delivery.

[mtb_gary]

Peter

Having ATB's in both front and rear I have noticed no difference in under steering. The only marginal change is the return to centre may be slightly quicker. That was after really trying to see what the difference it made. Off road :D. As Simon (blindin) and I found out on the weekend

Gary

[Gippslander]

i went with lockers front and rear (Ashcroft) and 4.1 : 1 ratio crown wheel and pinions with 32" tyres so i still am a little under original specs. I purchased a 85/120 psi air switch and fitted it to the electric control of the standard compressor using original air tank. If i leave the compressor switched on it may start once a month the air system is pretty leak free so it will only start when the air pressure drops to 85 psi and cuts out at 120 psi i just love having both ends locked, i don't run hard in the bush i try to just ease through if i feel wheel slip i stop engage both lockers and walk through.:D happy as.

Gippy

[blindin]

I've never had a diff lock, and to be honest I feel quite dirty about getting one, like I'd be cheating when out playing. But I must admit, I loved having 4wheel t/c in the d2, being able to pick the wheels up a mile in the air and just keep driving. All my vehicles have been more or less standard, but I do feel that I could do with it.

[redandy3575]

Was very nearly going to get the Ashcroft rear air locker. But as usual, other financial commitments put an end to that.

I find the early P38s even with TC on rear axel is still very effective, more so than a lot of the japanese counterparts. And in situations with cross axel slip, a gentle application of the brakes gave enough stoppage of the slipping wheel to throw enough drive to the wheel with the most traction. It's not a fool proof method off course, but one that has gotten me out of a few situations.

In my opinnion, i'm very hesitant putting lockers on the front axel due to 1.) the lack of steering effect 2.) the potential of braking a hub, spline or the diff itself if you're not vigilant enough to switch off the locker as soon as you hit a hard surface. I can see what blindin is trying to do with combining the TC of the rear with a lock on the front, but it can be risky one if your not carefull.

Again IMO, i'd go locker rear and see how you go. I reckon it would be just about enough to get you out of most tough conditions. Then if you want to go the next step, add a LSD or Auto locker ( if you can get them for P38s) to give you that extra bit of traction without the risk of doing damage and needing to switch it off to regain full steering.

As far as ARB lockers are concerned, the newer ones if heard a few negative issues from Land Rover mechanics of premature air leaks from the outer seals, though don't quote me on this, but have been advised that Ashcroft is the way to go if going air locker.

[wayneg]

I agree with redandy. If only fitting one locker
Put the locker in the front diff but fit it to the rear. Fit the rear diff to the front.
That way you get a 4 pin diff in the front.
I have had dramas with my ARB type rear locker, oil coming back up the airline completely empting the diff of oil. I am just in the process of fitting it to the new car

[donh54]

AFAIK, the Tru Trak is a good choice for the front, no air supply needed, works like a LSD, only better (according to Eaton, anyway), so no effect on steering. I'll let you know more when I pick up my D1 :-)

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[Pete38]

Why did you have to make this thread????? I've only just got over buying an Ashcroft ATB for the front and now the thoughts have come back again ha ha. The traction control works OK in the front with the rear locked but not always.

Edit: I am joking by the way

[Pete38]

AFAIK, the Tru Trak is a good choice for the front, no air supply needed, works like a LSD, only better (according to Eaton, anyway), so no effect on steering. I'll let you know more when I pick up my D1 :-)

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I have no loyalty or relation with Ashcroft, but their ATB is cheaper than the Trutrac and supposedly a great diff. Just like their locker is cheaper and supposedly a better locker.

Whats the cheapest a Trutrac goes for here for a P38?

I know from Ashcroft their own ATB is considerably cheaper thean the Trutrac they also sell, but with postage the ATB ends up a little under $650 including delivery with todays exchange rate. Used to be cheaper when our dollar was stronger to the pound.

[blindin]

I've heard a few things regarding the diff swap, yes, I agree about getting the 4 pin diff to the front, but in doing so, it may be stronger, but the gears will then be running to the weaker side, so gaining strength, to then lose it in a different place. The truetrac / ashcroft atb / quaife are only a limited slip diff, they are in my opinion better than the older clutch style in the way they do not wear out the plates, and are a gradual transfer. The way they are designed though is that they can only transfer a multiple of torque from the other wheel, so for instance, if there is no grip on one wheel, there will be no force transferred across, so if one wheel is in the air, the one on the ground gets nothing ( unless of course you use the brakes. In that case approx 3 x the braking force will transfer across to the other wheel in driving force ) it makes sense in my head.
Another diff is the kam, they do a clutch LSD plus the locker, this would be great in the rear, but I'd be cautious putting one in the front, as that would no doubt suffer from dodgy steering, and understeer.
For me to only fit one, would therefore be gaining traction in the front 2 wheels while using brakes ( if the wheel in the air ) but losing traction to the opposite rear wheel, as touching the brake will stop the traction control working. ( using the brake with a normal open diff will only transfer the same braking force across to equal driving force )
There is no doubt that the atb ( helical diff / torsen diffs ) are defiantly a better option than open diffs, but for my instance, unless replacing both, I would probably only gain a very small advantage.
By replacing the front diff with a locker, I will have a lock front diff when required, so drive on both front wheels, plus the advantage of t/c on the rear with 4 pin stronger diff.

[Pete38]

In your case I agree with your logic, and have done since you pointed out it has no TC in the front. I'm sure you will see good results. The locker in the rear of mine made a noticeable difference on difficult climbs over the TC so I'm sure it'll make a huge difference in the front with no TC. And as you said, you'll be removing the weaker 2 pin diff in the front of the earlier models

[blindin]

Hello again, been chasing around trying to get things confirmed. Jack Mac sold the rights to tjm who make the pro locker. A standard rover diff ( disco and then from 2002 onwards, disco front only ) is part number 168pl07, a p38a diff has a thinner crown wheel, in some cases the diff lock requires. 3/16 spacer between the carrier, and crown wheel, as I believe ash croft do. Pro locker part number 168 pl12 is machine so it does not need the washer / spacer.
Defender rear is also a p38a diff. I hope this may help if any one is chasing their tail to. Big thanks to Brad at tjm head office is brissy, very helpful, and knows what he is talking about, Also Jeoff at jack mac diffs.
Tjm will also be having a sale in November ish time, so should save a little then.

[blindin]

Fingers crossed it'll make a big difference!
I have heard the ashcroft are good, and better than the truetrac, and also cheaper I believe too as you said.
The arb I have heard has given some people trouble, and have not heard any thing bad about ashcroft locker either, also the jack mac / pro locker.
My discision will defiantly be a locker in the front, not an LSD / atb, keeping the 4pin diff in the rear.
It will either be a ashcroft, or pro locker, depending on price, unless some one throws some thing else in the mix.
Also the eaton / harrow e-locker comes very highly recommended by suppliers and workshops, but the price is slightly more.
I will keep you posted as to when I get one fitted, as you can see I like to work out my options first, lol.
It probably won't be for a while, as funds aren't available.

[Gippslander]

Just a quick note the P38 front diff is supposed to be in opposite to the rear it was thought and rightly so that the front diff does not see the load like the rear going up hills in fact it is reportedly 40% of the rear due to vehicle weight when going up hill. Now when you get stuck going forward and have to reverse out the front diff is driving on the strongest side of the teeth and it experiences the most load especially if you are backing up a slope(Barkley River Jeep track to maneuver) so the boffins at Land Rover decided that the crown wheel and pinion need to be that way. As for the four pin diff in the rear when you purchase the locker it is a four pin centre and fits both ends you just mount the right crown wheel and pinion to make it for the front or rear. So having said that if you fit the locker in the front you still have your four pin original in the rear. Hope that helps:D

[benji]

My setup is pretty much opposite to blindin's
I put a locker in the rear (a classic/d1 rd128 with the ashcroft spacer plate) and an ashcroft atb centre in the front.

I'm yet to get the rear locker working, but from driving double locked defenders a rear locker is more effective than a front locker and an open rear.

I put the atb diff on the front as it settles the chattering of the front diff on hard ground, this should protect the driveline more by taking out those torque spikes, and it definately does make a difference in this regard.



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[RoverHse]

Their are also a diff lock, LSD, axle and CV made by KAM, which I've read good reviews on.

[blindin]

Their are also a diff lock, LSD, axle and CV made by KAM, which I've read good reviews on.

I think to fit a kam diff, the front of the housing needs to be cut. I have also heard that they're good, but un sure of fitting process. I don't think it's a DIY job.

[benji]

From what I understand the diff pan is cut off, and a longer shaped pan is put on to house the electronic solonoid.
I couldn't imagine that fitting with the roll bar being so close to the diff.
I was trying to modify an atp diff slider to use on the front a few weeks ago, but there's just no room there unless you were to space the rollbar further forward and lengthen the chassis links.

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[jbell110]

I've fitted truetrac's & 4.1's front & rear to my rangie running 33's & I'm
more than happy with its performance. I think it depends on how hard
your going to go as to what is needed. I used to not care about panel
damage but now I do. This set up gets me where I go these days..

cheers Jeff

[PaulToll]

I would first like to forward thanks to of you as I have been in a quandary as to how to outfit my 2001 model RR (although I've been told my RR has TC front and rear).
Now, I am leaning towards fitting the Eaton e-lockers front and rear, working on the premise I will not really change the truck dynamics. However, I will admit the idea of fitting a Detroit to the rear is also tempting, but I am concerned with the backlash having had one on a SWB BJ70 Cruiser.
I've had ARB lockers and while good, when they do fail it is usually when you really do 'not' want them to fail. :o hence my leaning towards a locker with less fibrous components this time around.

[stewie110]

I would first like to forward thanks to of you as I have been in a quandary as to how to outfit my 2001 model RR (although I've been told my RR has TC front and rear).
Now, I am leaning towards fitting the Eaton e-lockers front and rear, working on the premise I will not really change the truck dynamics. However, I will admit the idea of fitting a Detroit to the rear is also tempting, but I am concerned with the backlash having had one on a SWB BJ70 Cruiser.
I've had ARB lockers and while good, when they do fail it is usually when you really do 'not' want them to fail. :o hence my leaning towards a locker with less fibrous components this time around.
I came to the same conclusion regarding lockers for my defender. The Eatons feel right. The final nail in the coffin to the air compressor based lockers was the noise (to me)

[Keithy P38]

6yrs of punishment (in two of my P38's - the same diff centre was swapped between the two) and not a drama from my Ashcroft air locker.

Cheers
Keithy

[PaulToll]

I have TC on the 4 wheels (2001 model) and thus have been listening to the chats to determine best approach. I have resolved, in my circumstances, to go with an Eaton e-locker in the front with an Ashcroft ATB in the rear.

I've been wanting to retain my 90/10 Coopers having no real desire to go to the 50/50 BFG's primarily due to the All Terrains not having as much grip on wet roads.

And finally, the cost factor will save me roughly $1500, so a bonus in my books.:D

[redandy3575]

Harrop have now gotten into e lockers for P38s.

Worth a look.

https://www.harrop.com.au/shop/4x4-performance/elocker/elocker-range-rover-defender