Scottish Vote: What happens to the Union Flag if?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

With the upcoming vote for Scottish independence, if successful what will happen to the UK Union Flag? Will it become a white flag with the two red crosses only?

What happens to our National Flag and other ensigns with the Union Flag obliterating a quarter of our sky?

[JDNSW]

This will be up to the UK government, and my guess is that they will continue with the existing flag.

As far as Australia and other commonwealth countries go, I would expect the flag to remain unchanged. There is good precedent for this - have a look at the Hawaiian State flag, which retains in some versions the pre-1801 version of the Union Flag, with no St Patrick's cross.

John

[digger]

This will be up to the UK government, and my guess is that they will continue with the existing flag.

As far as Australia and other commonwealth countries go, I would expect the flag to remain unchanged. There is good precedent for this - have a look at the Hawaiian State flag, which retains in some versions the pre-1801 version of the Union Flag, with no St Patrick's cross.

John

I would hope it will remain unchanged..both the Union Jack and our flag...

Lets not start the flag change thing again.......
(but I bet that searches on the Hawaiian Flag just spiked as we all pop over for a look :) )

[Redback]

I would hope it will remain unchanged..both the Union Jack and our flag...

Lets not start the flag change thing again.......
(but I bet that searches on the Hawaiian Flag just spiked as we all pop over for a look :) )

If our was to change, it would have to be something that is better than the current choice, but yes it doesn't really have to change.

But when you look at the countrys that are still in the Commonwealth but have changed, I don't it being a problem, just wish the Eureka flag wasn't tarnished by the BLF:mad:

I'm happy to go with our current flag.

Baz.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I would hope it will remain unchanged..both the Union Jack and our flag...

Lets not start the flag change thing again.......
(but I bet that searches on the Hawaiian Flag just spiked as we all pop over for a look :) )Its only the "Union Jack" when its on the bow of a ship.

e.g. this is the U.S. Jack
http://www.americanflagstore.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/u/s/us-jack-flag.jpg

[Mick_Marsh]

I was reading a news report about this the other day. The fellow being interviewed was in the British government. He was saying the Union Jack would not change and he could see no reason why the Australian flag would have to.

I think there are many more important things to fix before we waste time and resources changing the flag.

[BMKal]

Its only the "Union Jack" when its on the bow of a ship.



That is the viewpoint of some - and is generally disputed. ;)

Union Jack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

That is the viewpoint of some - and is generally disputed. ;)

Union Jack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack)Wikipedia, now there's a irrefutable source.

[Hay Ewe]

I was reading a news report about this the other day. The fellow being interviewed was in the British government. He was saying the Union Jack would not change and he could see no reason why the Australian flag would have to.

I think there are many more important things to fix before we waste time and resources changing the flag.

I totally agree, but that is unlikely, and there will be a whole load of back slapping, dick swinging and competition about the flag.
And then the states will no doubt get involved and want their bit as well

WOFTAM

[KarlB]

This page may provide some further insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom#Scottish_independence

It is also interesting to contemplate the implications of changing the flag of the United Kingdom on the flags of Commonwealth countries (such as Australia and New Zealand) that bear the Union Jack in the canton.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[BMKal]

Wikipedia, now there's a irrefutable source.

The Wikipedia post at least quotes other sources. I haven't seen anything contradicting this from you.

I think I know what I would base my opinion on. ;)

[Chucaro]

The new flag after the blue is gone ?


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1171.jpg

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The new flag after the blue is gone ?


<Flag image removed>Except the Welsh always end up getting subjugated by the English, so the Cross of St George will end up on top. ;)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/83592d1410402811-scottish-vote-what-happens-union-flag-if-new-uk-flag2.jpg

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Oops I forgot about the Republic or Ireland! :o :wasntme:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[juddy]

If the Scots win the vote, will be very Interesting to see what happens to the Nuclear sub bases, at Faslane and the Storage complex at Coulport.

With a cost of 20 Billion pounds its not going to be cheap to rebuild another one.

And if Scotland became Independent do they have to have there own armed forces?

[DiscoMick]

I'd like a new flag. Let's ask the Aborigines if we can adopt theirs - its great!

[Chucaro]

If the Scots win the vote, will be very Interesting to see what happens to the Nuclear sub bases, at Faslane and the Storage complex at Coulport.

With a cost of 20 Billion pounds its not going to be cheap to rebuild another one.

And if Scotland became Independent do they have to have there own armed forces?

They can do like Costa Rica an do not have an army but a well trained police force.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

That is the viewpoint of some - and is generally disputed. ;)

Union Jack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack)Disputed by some, but then again some dispute that planes hit the World Trade Centre.

According to the official website of the UK Monarchy, a site that uses the term Union Flag throughout the page but only uses the term Union Jack several times and only accompanying the term Union Flag. ( http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/UnionJack.aspx ) (http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/UnionJack.aspx)
The term 'Union Jack' possibly dates from Queen Anne's time (r. 1702-14), but its origin is uncertain.

It may come from the 'jack-et' of the English or Scottish soldiers, or from the name of James I who originated the first union in 1603.

Another alternative is that the name may be derived from a proclamation by Charles II that the Union Flag should be flown only by ships of the Royal Navy as a jack, a small flag at the bowsprit; the term 'jack' once meant small.That some people nickname something doesn't mean that that is the official term for that thing.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I'd like a new flag. Let's ask the Aborigines if we can adopt theirs - its great!
Or :D

[windsock]

And if Scotland became Independent do they have to have there own armed forces?



Would the Atholl Highlanders count? Europe's only legal private army... or so I am told... :)


Furth fortune and fill the fetters...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-0RJdHIsLE

[Redback]

Oops I forgot about the Republic or Ireland! :o :wasntme:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/83596d1410403681-scottish-vote-what-happens-union-flag-if-new-uk-flag3.jpg

Aaahh no Republic of Ireland in the Union Flag, Northern Irelands St Patrick Cross is already there.

Thousands of IRA solders just turned in their graves;)

[BMKal]

Disputed by some, but then again some dispute that planes hit the World Trade Centre.

According to the official website of the UK Monarchy, a site that uses the term Union Flag throughout the page but only uses the term Union Jack several times and only accompanying the term Union Flag. ( http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/UnionJack.aspx ) (http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/UnionJack.aspx)That some people nickname something doesn't mean that that is the official term for that thing.

Wow !!!!! That really injects a different level of intelligence into the conversation. :o

I can't see anywhere in here where anyone has claimed that the term "Union Jack" is the "official term" for the Union Flag.

YOU made the claim that "Its only the "Union Jack" when its on the bow of a ship". I simply pointed out that this is not necessarily the case, and provided a link which in turn links to numerous sources which support this view.

You should try reading through the link that you have subsequently posted - it does not in any way support your claim. In fact, the first line of the page linked to could be taken at least by implication as disputing your claim.

As I previously said - I know what I would base my opinion on. ;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Aaahh no Republic of Ireland in the Union Flag, Northern Irelands St Patrick Cross is already there.

Thousands of IRA solders just turned in their graves;)Ah Ha! But you will note that St Patricks Cross is only in the Northern part of the New Union Flag! :D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wow !!!!! That .....we will have to agree to disagree, but I take offence at YOUR suggestion that I didn't read....

[Bigbjorn]

Get rid of that pommie badge of shame from the corner of our flag. We are not poms, and no longer knuckle the forelock to them, Well, some suckholes still do. I would like our flag to be the Eureka flag in our national colours, green and gold.

[Mick_Marsh]

Yeah! And this one should be a contender too.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/1167.jpg

Let's have a referendum.

[MBZ460]

I would hate to think the Scots get rid of it before we do.

[rangietragic]

If the scots get independence they will still want all the benefits of the union such as the pound ect.Oh and about our flag,LEAVE THE BLOODY THING ALONE:mad:It actually says where we come from and who built our country.
Wait for it,here they come:p

[bob10]

Here's something to think about. To this day, the British Union Flag/ Jack has never been declared as the National flag of any member country of that union. Each of the members of the Commonwealth has it's own flag. Ours happens to have the Union flag in the canton. Nothing to do with England, or any other union member. The design of our flag was an international competition, open to all. If we change our flag, it should only be Australians who decide. All I ask is, no kangaroos, no Eurekas, nothing to divide the country. Nothing wrong with one like Canada. Bob

[bob10]

Would the Atholl Highlanders count? Europe's only legal private army... or so I am told... :)


Furth fortune and fill the fetters...


Atholl Highlanders Parade, Blair Castle, Scotland - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-0RJdHIsLE)


Now you've done it, Bob


Atholl Highlanders Pipe Band Playing Atholl Highlanders - Blair Castle May 2013 - YouTube

[bob10]

What the heck, it was Scotland at the beginning of the thread, was it not? Let them have independence, they will still be part of the Union, & the Commonwealth. For that matter, join Ireland up as well. Bob



Royal Scots Dragoon Guards - YouTube (http://youtu.be/epLgvrYbdSg?list=RD_UE52BD5wGc)

[PAT303]

So how does Scotland benefit from all this?. Pat

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So how does Scotland benefit from all this?. PatThey get to re-build Hadrian's Wall and keep the royalties from North Sea oil and gas production, but will likely lose the military and naval bases as well as further shipbuilding contracts for the Royal Navy.

[101RRS]

So how does Scotland benefit from all this?. Pat

They have been fighting and dieing for this for over a thousand years - simply the right of independence and self determination.

After independence they can determine what sort of relationship they have with GB and the rest of the world. I am sure that arrangements can be put in place with GB that allow economic and other issues remain, sorted amended.

If they do not vote for independence then they will be part of England forever.

[bob10]

They get to re-build Hadrian's Wall and keep the royalties from North Sea oil and gas production, but will likely lose the military and naval bases as well as further shipbuilding contracts for the Royal Navy.


That is pure speculation, based on hearsay. Give the Scots & the Brits more credit. They will work it out. Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So you don't think the current Jacobites will remember the Duke of Cumberland? :D

Without royalties from the North Sea fields, Scotland will have very little industry to pay the taxes required for infrastructure and social services in Scotland. Very few large shipbuilding still exists on the Clyde, mostly that work now goes to Korea, even Cunard is using French shipbuilders, so the remaining work is the Royal Navy. If there is no agreement for a shared military between what will be two soverign nations, then you can hardly assume that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be contracting Shipbuilding to the Clyde when Harland and Wolfe in Belfast could step in to the work and employ UK citizens instead of Scots.

It may come to naught, but it will be an interesting referendum to watch.

[Bigbjorn]

So you don't think the current Jacobites will remember the Duke of Cumberland? :D

Without royalties from the North Sea fields, Scotland will have very little industry to pay the taxes required for infrastructure and social services in Scotland. Very few large shipbuilding still exists on the Clyde, mostly that work now goes to Korea, even Cunard is using French shipbuilders, so the remaining work is the Royal Navy. If there is no agreement for a shared military between what will be two soverign nations, then you can hardly assume that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be contracting Shipbuilding to the Clyde when Harland and Wolfe in Belfast could step in to the work and employ UK citizens instead of Scots.

It may come to naught, but it will be an interesting referendum to watch.

You mean the Harland and Wolfe that is owned by Nordskib, a Norwegian company? The Olson family.

Not much industry left in England either after Marg Thatcher's fell and burn assault on English industry. Do you know what all the great engineering companies of the north of England and the Clyde have in common? They no longer exist.

And the mealy-mouthed two faced perfidious poms have a damn cheek calling it an "Act of Union". They invaded, defeated, suppressed, and oppressed the Scots. I am sure the Scots have long memories

[bob10]

So you don't think the current Jacobites will remember the Duke of Cumberland? :D

Without royalties from the North Sea fields, Scotland will have very little industry to pay the taxes required for infrastructure and social services in Scotland. Very few large shipbuilding still exists on the Clyde, mostly that work now goes to Korea, even Cunard is using French shipbuilders, so the remaining work is the Royal Navy. If there is no agreement for a shared military between what will be two soverign nations, then you can hardly assume that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be contracting Shipbuilding to the Clyde when Harland and Wolfe in Belfast could step in to the work and employ UK citizens instead of Scots.

It may come to naught, but it will be an interesting referendum to watch.


The Scots are far too canny to be caught short , and the Brits are far to smart to let it happen. Some where in the middle, very similar to the Asian saving face, I would say. Bob

[Celtoid]

If the scots get independence they will still want all the benefits of the union such as the pound ect.Oh and about our flag,LEAVE THE BLOODY THING ALONE:mad:It actually says where we come from and who built our country.
Wait for it,here they come:p




And they do, here they come .... :)


Don't want another Bannockburn or Culloden Moor but there are probably a few facts that need to be intelligently discussed:



Did or did not Scotland have it's own Monarchy, Parliament, Government, Tender, Army, etc, etc ... before over half a millennium of invasions took their toll? The later part is less than cut and dried but the former is solid....Scotland was an independent Entity.

So really the conversation can probably stop there. If the UK Government (which has disproportionate English or English leaning representation) decide that they can let Scotland go, then they should do something to help .... can't use the words I want due to the Mods .... but hey, they broke it, they should fix it. I don't mean hand-outs ... that traffic usually went to the percentage of the ~ 50 Million in England and surrounds. I mean, they have strategic, governance, financial, ... blah, blah, blah concerns that need to be intelligently addressed. England dismembered Scotland's mechanisms and if they are serious about letting go they should assist in reinstating that. I know that lots of in-roads have occurred in that regard already.

However, if they disagree well then just state that and live by it. Don't pretend to be something else. Don't pretend to the world that you'd consider the break up of the UK, if you don't mean it.


I'm Very, very suspicious of the British concern and headlines "Cameron Begs Scotland" ... really? There is an agenda here that has nothing to do with the Scots or Scotland. Altruism is not in that dictionary.

There have been almost Putin'istic threats ..."we'll (Britain Speaking) trash your economy, Jobs will go South, etc, etc. Is that the dialog of a friendly neighbours who's (Scotland) Countrymen have shed, so, so much blood for Britain (read England) just like Australia has? Can't you be two countries and still have workers move between, have Defence Pacts, etc? ...


Oh, that's right ... I work for a Canadian Company and yet I'm allowed to talk to them on the phone and visit them , etc ... what is with that threat? Lucky I live in Australia! Crazy threats.


Has Australia suffered from independence, was Australia 'threatened that way?' The answer is no!


So why is the British Pound floundering, world leaders calling for it not to happen ... threats being proffered? Amazing for a country that has been treated like a poor cousin for centuries, as have many others .... suddenly Scotland is so important. Go figure?


Some serious digging is required .... other than the raping of Scotland ....Oil, steel, coal, etc, etc .....how much left now? How much per capita has Scotland (the welfare state claimed by some British folk) put into the British economy ......?


So is the British concern economic or Strategic? .... it will be F all about Scotland I wager!


Anyway ...complex issue ... who knows the answer ... after 300 years of no identity, real political identity ... and the economical independence that comes with that ... who knows?


Back to the point .... is independence right? ... probably yes .... it's not like QLD V NSW for the uninitiated. Scots and Poms/Brits have slaughtered each other for a long time. But they have also fought to the death to protect each other ... so one would hope that the old stigma has been withdrawn to the soccer or Rugby match only ... but they are a very different people. It's probably not as bad as the French Vs German comparison but fundamentally it is.


However, the question still hovers, the referendum is real .... the British concern is real ... so this is a topic of gravity.


I just don't get the threats, the nastiness ... treat it like Australia and Canada, etc .... always fought and died together but don't need to be 'that' together! If there are strategic concerns ... don't freakin Bulldoze them ... discuss .... i'd be really surprised if an independent Scottish Government did something to compromise the former Britain.


The referendum will probably fail, but it should be a wake-up call to the British Government to stop being a passive bully and let the real "United Kingdom have it's say.


If there was enough oil in the North Sea and Scotland could claim it, I'd say Bye Bye Britain ....


But hey, that's me and what would I know. :)

[digger]

<<<snip>>>Don't want another Bannockburn or Culloden Moor <<<snip>>>

As a CAMPBELL I believe that Culloden is oft taken out of context
And we are still faithful to the cause to this day...

[Celtoid]

So how does Scotland benefit from all this?. Pat


Great question Pat, well asked ....


Answer hopefully transcends emotive.

The reason is there .... just do a bit of reading.

I don't just mean ancient history ... pull up economic and strategic facts RE: England Vs the other British Countries ... The others weren't there for pleasant conversation and they still aren't there today for those reasons. Do you get what I'm saying?


Have a good read Pat ...


Cheers,


Kev.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You mean the Harland and Wolfe that is owned by Nordskib, a Norwegian company? The Olson family.

Not much industry left in England either after Marg Thatcher's fell and burn assault on English industry. Do you know what all the great engineering companies of the north of England and the Clyde have in common? They no longer exist.

And the mealy-mouthed two faced perfidious poms have a damn cheek calling it an "Act of Union". They invaded, defeated, suppressed, and oppressed the Scots. I am sure the Scots have long memoriesYou're probably correct about Wolfe, but it doesn't matter who the owners are, the workers in Belfast would be Northern Ireland, UK citizens. In the same way the workers are English in the JLR factories owned by Indians or at the Ford plants owned by Yanks it is paid work.

I'm sure that the Scots have long memories off the English, the dispossession and what was tantamount to ethnic cleansing of some highland clans. One only has to consider the Scots with surnames of Brown, Green etc, these were the highland Jacobean clansmen who fled to France and changed their family name to prevent being tracked down by the English as traitors.

[Hoges]

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!! Scottish union heavies into Union-busting :eek: well I never...:eek: I'm waiting for Sen. Doug Cameron to make a PRONOUNCEMENT... he's been very quiet:wasntme: (stand by for incoming....:twisted: at least our WA cousins haven't openly canvassed secession/...yet :-)

On a little more serious note, a tour of St Paul's cathedral in London is well worthwhile... Every notable who pillaged, plundered and subjugated in the name of the "King/Queen/Empire" is either buried there or has a memorial plaque... I came away with a different perspective. Then we went to Ireland where my forefathers were dispossessed of valuable lands and left to starve... guess I have some sympathy for the Scots perspective...

Mind you, we are better off in Oz that Arthur Phillip arrived a week before La Perouse...just look at the tragedy of the Congo and other African nations formerly colonised by the French vs those colonised by the English...not perfect but less fractured.

[London Boy]

And the mealy-mouthed two faced perfidious poms have a damn cheek calling it an "Act of Union". They invaded, defeated, suppressed, and oppressed the Scots. I am sure the Scots have long memoriesWhich Act of Union are you talking about? Remember, if you will, that England took a Scottish king, not the other way round. And when the Stuarts were booted out, more Scots fought to throw them out than did to keep them.

You should also look at the Darien scheme, which was a comprehensive Scottish failure to acquire an empire. It ruined Scotland's economy and Scotland accepted union as the price for England to bail them out. Not an unreasonable trade, looked at pragmatically.

And while you're making ill-judged statements about perfidious Albion, remember also that the clearances were done by Scottish landowners, not the English. And Culloden was the result of an attempt by the Italian drunk, Charles Edward Stuart, to claim the thrones of England, Scotland and Ireland. And the suppression of the highlands was driven by lowland Scots, central belt merchants and landowners who had joined the English adn European economy and adopted mercantile habits.

Not all one way traffic. Just a pity that so many Scots seem to feel the need to keep fighting Bannockburn.

Of course I speak as someone with English and Scottish grandparents, who has lived for many years in England and in Scotland, and is married to a Scottish Highlander. I'm well across the topic.

[Celtoid]

They get to re-build Hadrian's Wall and keep the royalties from North Sea oil and gas production, but will likely lose the military and naval bases as well as further shipbuilding contracts for the Royal Navy.



I doubt that on many fronts ....


There is probably F all North Sea Gas and Oil left ... strategically Scotland would not support a common cause?....oh that's a crazy idea ... of course they would!


Like we don't have a US military presence in England, Australia, etc, etc .... Maybe not the best approach but WTF? "Oh I'm sorry, Scotland you chose independence ,,, we can't be friends anymore ...." Seriously?


I really don't get this at all.

[Celtoid]

So you don't think the current Jacobites will remember the Duke of Cumberland? :D

Without royalties from the North Sea fields, Scotland will have very little industry to pay the taxes required for infrastructure and social services in Scotland. Very few large shipbuilding still exists on the Clyde, mostly that work now goes to Korea, even Cunard is using French shipbuilders, so the remaining work is the Royal Navy. If there is no agreement for a shared military between what will be two soverign nations, then you can hardly assume that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be contracting Shipbuilding to the Clyde when Harland and Wolfe in Belfast could step in to the work and employ UK citizens instead of Scots.

It may come to naught, but it will be an interesting referendum to watch.


You wouldn't be a Pom by any chance ... just saying?


So if as you suggest Scotland has no value ... what's the fuss all about? ;-)

[London Boy]

I'm sure that the Scots have long memories off the English, the dispossession and what was tantamount to ethnic cleansing of some highland clans. One only has to consider the Scots with surnames of Brown, Green etc, these were the highland Jacobean clansmen who fled to France and changed their family name to prevent being tracked down by the English as traitors.Actually it was more like the Campbells tracking down the MacDonalds and others. Like I said elsewhere, more Scots fought to get rid of the Jacobites than did to keep them.

And the clearances, like I also said elsewhere, were done by people with names like McLeod, Sinclair and so on. Scots people, landowners who had figured out that the highlanders were (a) an embarrassment, and (b) worth less than the sheep which could otherwise be kept on the land.

[Celtoid]

They have been fighting and dieing for this for over a thousand years - simply the right of independence and self determination.

After independence they can determine what sort of relationship they have with GB and the rest of the world. I am sure that arrangements can be put in place with GB that allow economic and other issues remain, sorted amended.

If they do not vote for independence then they will be part of England forever.


Good points but not true in total.


If Scotland says no, they can still vote again later ... in years to come. If they vote YES they cannot reverse....if they win.


Even a lose would surely be a 'wake up to the stupid' that the under-dog countries want more say in their future.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You wouldn't be a Pom by any chance ... just saying?

So if as you suggest Scotland has no value ... what's the fuss all about? ;-)No I'm not a pom and I'm not at all saying that Scotland has no value, however most of the heavy industry that once existed in Scotland no longer exists save the shipbuilding etc for the RN. If that were to go what remains is small scale shipbuilding and small industries, farming, forestry plus North Sea oil and gas. Financial institutions can move their headquarters at the stroke of a pen so there is no guarantee that institutions like LLoyds Bank etc will remain in Edinburg.

What will remain is probably insufficient industry to support the costs of a fully independent nation. I wish and hope it isn't so for the sake of the Scots, it is however all up to the Scots themselves. No doubt, if this vote fails, there will be a subsequent one, years maybe decades down the track.

As I said it will be interesting to watch and I fully support people exercising their democratic rights what ever way they choose.

[Celtoid]

So you don't think the current Jacobites will remember the Duke of Cumberland? :D

Without royalties from the North Sea fields, Scotland will have very little industry to pay the taxes required for infrastructure and social services in Scotland. Very few large shipbuilding still exists on the Clyde, mostly that work now goes to Korea, even Cunard is using French shipbuilders, so the remaining work is the Royal Navy. If there is no agreement for a shared military between what will be two soverign nations, then you can hardly assume that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be contracting Shipbuilding to the Clyde when Harland and Wolfe in Belfast could step in to the work and employ UK citizens instead of Scots.

It may come to naught, but it will be an interesting referendum to watch.


So why the Froth and Lather then do you think?

[Celtoid]

Which Act of Union are you talking about? Remember, if you will, that England took a Scottish king, not the other way round. And when the Stuarts were booted out, more Scots fought to throw them out than did to keep them.

You should also look at the Darien scheme, which was a comprehensive Scottish failure to acquire an empire. It ruined Scotland's economy and Scotland accepted union as the price for England to bail them out. Not an unreasonable trade, looked at pragmatically.

And while you're making ill-judged statements about perfidious Albion, remember also that the clearances were done by Scottish landowners, not the English. And Culloden was the result of an attempt by the Italian drunk, Charles Edward Stuart, to claim the thrones of England, Scotland and Ireland. And the suppression of the highlands was driven by lowland Scots, central belt merchants and landowners who had joined the English adn European economy and adopted mercantile habits.

Not all one way traffic. Just a pity that so many Scots seem to feel the need to keep fighting Bannockburn.

Of course I speak as someone with English and Scottish grandparents, who has lived for many years in England and in Scotland, and is married to a Scottish Highlander. I'm well across the topic.


So at no point did the Scots just want to be left alone?

You are talking a grey area in History when trying to find a Scot in the nobility of Scotland would be impossible ... if you take my meaning. Including the landowners. There was always a thread or a connection. These disastrous situations when people that had their own agendas came to play in England and Scotland .... very much in England due to the population difference (size).

We could talk about this till the cows come home ...


But .... why ... why now does Scotland (or so many of ... oh that's right ... there are shed loads of English still living in Scotland) want to be free? Why now?


History is tainted.... Very tainted.


Let's look at the Time Scales ... (I'm Generalising)


Kenneth McAlpine ... I think around the 800's ... no English to be seen.


After that ... Celto - Viking - Anglo inter-marriage


Robert The (De) Bruce 1200's ... after far too many years of incursions ... but English were clearly out (Norman) ... the older Invaders were in but Scottish leaning.....but at least RDB married a Celt!


Highland clearances .... late 1700's ... after any remnant of Scottish resistance was gone after hundreds of years of insidious incursions and the, as you stated, idiotic following of nobility .... oh, did I overstep? Sorry, I don't do Royalty! Farcical concept that they are any better than you or I....blessed by God .... who says? Anywho ....


So a few years had passed ... oh, that's half a millennium. What were the Scots doing then ... wanting and planning to be English or part of the UK? ... very much doubt it!


The Darien Scheme ... yeah that was Scotland talking ... some Alan Bond or Christopher Skase ... nothing more nothing less!



The Highland Clearances ... yeah 'Scottish' Landowners with Redcoats in support... just look up the diaries and stories and look at the paintings and decide how Scottish these people were.

And of course ... Where did a lot of the victims of the Highland clearances go? .... Oh that would be America! Another chapter.

Do you think the Americans started the war of independence by just waking up one day and saying "hey, love you guys, it's not about you, it's about us ... But we feel it's time that you moved on! I'm thinking not.

Yeah, you're well across the topic ....


Neither you nor I can ascertain the mindset of the ancient Scottish Kings or people ... they may have been happy to sit with what they had ... they were not a Germanic based Culture like the Post-Roman Brits and whilst there are similarities in their genesis, they were and still are a very different people.


But as I said ...past history, why are we discussing that? ... so why the issue?... cut Scotland adrift ... there should be no issue .... I just don't get all the frothing around ... England looking after little brother Scotland ... a bit like in Gallipoli and other war fronts when the Scots, Irish, Australians and other Colonials got pushed into the meat-grinder .... nah, no plan there! I smell a rat!


I don't think it will happen, as in secession .... but there is no altruism in England's concern ... England is scared of the hurt that it will feel.

[JDNSW]

An interesting comment I saw many years ago that has not been raised in this discussion - "If Scotland had not been in union with the rest of the UK, there would never have been a Labour government in Westminster".

I do not know whether this is accurate, but it is very unlikely that the average distribution of voting in England and Scotland are exactly the same, and the absence of the Scottish vote could be expected to have a significant effect on the parties in Westminster. Maybe this is why we have all the politicians campaigning against secession.

John

[windsock]

:eek: What??!


Fury over military ban in Scottish referendum - World - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11323356)

[THE BOOGER]

Happens here all the time if you are posted interstate you vote in the state and council election for the area you live in. I wonder if WA was to vote on leaving the commonwealth would they give the vote to expats living in NSW:wasntme:

[Celtoid]

:eek: What??!


Fury over military ban in Scottish referendum - World - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11323356)


Surprise, surprise, surprise ....

[Hay Ewe]

Tens of thousands of Scots living south of the border, and around the world, have complained about the fact they are not given a vote.
The above I have quoted from the article.

Why should these tens of thousands have a vote?
They are not there, they left. If it was that good they would still be there!
I dont get or have a vote in UK elections, I dont live there

pretty simple to me

[Bigbjorn]

I suppose employment could be generated by having what little shipbuilding capacity left on the Clyde (is there any?) build ships for the Neilsens of Barra to resume their old trade of monitoring merchant shipping in the Irish Sea.

[DiscoMick]

It would be good to have a flag which had all its elements being local instead of imported. That's the main advantage of the Aboriginal flag I think - we all know its home-grown, like the Canadians have the maple leaf. Our current flag is almost indistinguishable from the NZ flag and doesn't represent modern Australian multicultural society. It divides us instead of uniting us. We need a flag which EVERYONE, not just some, can identify with. My opinion.

[Hay Ewe]

It would be good to have a flag which had all its elements being local instead of imported. That's the main advantage of the Aboriginal flag I think - we all know its home-grown, like the Canadians have the maple leaf. Our current flag is almost indistinguishable from the NZ flag and doesn't represent modern Australian multicultural society. It divides us instead of uniting us. We need a flag which EVERYONE, not just some, can identify with. My opinion.

yeah, agree, but problem is that what identifies for me is different for you.
e.g. you might want a fish and I want a bicycle.
then the state governments would want their bit and then...

[DiscoMick]

OK, it can't be that hard to get an agreement. Lets just chuck in the Southern Cross over a roo jumping across a desert pockmarked with mines, with snowy mountains in the background, towards a harbor. Surely we could all agree that represents us - yes?

[Mick_Marsh]

I quite like a dark blue flag.
We'll put the southern cross on it because that represents where we are. Oh, and a star with seven points on it six points representing a original states of federation and the seventh point representing the territories of Australia.
Then, we'll have a Union Jack on it to represent our history as six British colonies.

I'd be happy with that.

[London Boy]

An interesting comment I saw many years ago that has not been raised in this discussion - "If Scotland had not been in union with the rest of the UK, there would never have been a Labour government in Westminster". John
Both Blair governments had a majority without the Scottish MPs.

[London Boy]

There is probably F all North Sea Gas and Oil left ... strategically Scotland would not support a common cause?....oh that's a crazy idea ... of course they would!


Like we don't have a US military presence in England, Australia, etc, etc .... Maybe not the best approach but WTF? "Oh I'm sorry, Scotland you chose independence ,,, we can't be friends anymore ...." Seriously?


I really don't get this at all.
The rump UK would treat Scotland a bit like it treats Norway or Denmark. Some other country, not too far away, on the small side financially and in terms of population, not threatening.

But we won't support its currency, or build our warships there, or let them send their goods through England tax free. We will welcome their banks and corporates as they set up their headquarters in London or Manchester. Helensburgh and Faslane will close of course, given the Scots don't want nukes on their territory, so those people will have to find jobs. Can probably tuck those things into Milford Haven or somewhere like. We'll not protect their fisheries, they'll need their own navy. We'll not administer their social services, they'll have to set up their own bureaucracy to do that.

Right now Westminster has to worry about Scotland and its people. If there's a vote to leave the UK, Westminster won't have that worry, since Scottish voters won't count for anything any more. On the other hand, bringing Scottish central belt jobs into northern England, that works very well for Westminster.

It's going to be fascinating to watch.

[London Boy]

The Highland Clearances ... yeah 'Scottish' Landowners with Redcoats in support... just look up the diaries and stories and look at the paintings and decide how Scottish these people were.

Yeah, you're well across the topic ....

Neither you nor I can ascertain the mindset of the ancient Scottish Kings or people ... they may have been happy to sit with what they had ... they were not a Germanic based Culture like the Post-Roman Brits and whilst there are similarities in their genesis, they were and still are a very different people.

I don't think it will happen, as in secession .... but there is no altruism in England's concern ... England is scared of the hurt that it will feel.
I just picked a couple of bits of your stream of consciousness.

Yes, the Scottish landowners - they were Scottish, down to their name and kinship - decided that the English way of life was better. So they dressed and acted like them but were still Scottish. It's just that the highland Scottish culture and way of life had met its end, outlived its uefulness. A bit like aboriginal culture here, in Australia, today. It happens. Get used to it.

And yes, I lived in Scotland, highlands and lowlands, for long enough, and I've enough Scottish blood in me, and a highland Scottish wife, and Scottish family, and so on. So yes, I am across the topic.

And actually, the ancient Scots were Irish more than anything else. The Picts - the original ancient inhabitants, post ice age, were wiped out or absorbed, nobody is quite sure. And given the Norse invasions of the 5th to 11th centuries, much of Scotland (east coast, north coast, west coast and the Isles) had more in common with eastern England than it did with south and central Scotland.

England wouldn't feel the impact in any significant way. We're talking about around 5 million people in Scotland and around 58 million in the remainder of the UK. And once the Scottish banks and major corporates relocate, as they have by now said they will, it starts to work quite well for England.

[Celtoid]

The rump UK would treat Scotland a bit like it treats Norway or Denmark. Some other country, not too far away, on the small side financially and in terms of population, not threatening.

But we won't support its currency, or build our warships there, or let them send their goods through England tax free. We will welcome their banks and corporates as they set up their headquarters in London or Manchester. Helensburgh and Faslane will close of course, given the Scots don't want nukes on their territory, so those people will have to find jobs. Can probably tuck those things into Milford Haven or somewhere like. We'll not protect their fisheries, they'll need their own navy. We'll not administer their social services, they'll have to set up their own bureaucracy to do that.

Right now Westminster has to worry about Scotland and its people. If there's a vote to leave the UK, Westminster won't have that worry, since Scottish voters won't count for anything any more. On the other hand, bringing Scottish central belt jobs into northern England, that works very well for Westminster.

It's going to be fascinating to watch.


So you're speaking for England now ... you're the decision maker? If that's the general sentiment no wonder Scotland is pushing so hard to break free!


Hey, I have no issue with what you say ... happy to see Scotland dumb and poor like they always were .... yeah right!


So why is Cameron "begging the Scots"? Apparently he doesn't share your point of view ... neither do the banks and most of the British Parliament ..... go figure!

[Celtoid]

I just picked a couple of bits of your stream of consciousness.

Yes, the Scottish landowners - they were Scottish, down to their name and kinship - decided that the English way of life was better. So they dressed and acted like them but were still Scottish. It's just that the highland Scottish culture and way of life had met its end, outlived its uefulness. A bit like aboriginal culture here, in Australia, today. It happens. Get used to it.

And yes, I lived in Scotland, highlands and lowlands, for long enough, and I've enough Scottish blood in me, and a highland Scottish wife, and Scottish family, and so on. So yes, I am across the topic.

And actually, the ancient Scots were Irish more than anything else. The Picts - the original ancient inhabitants, post ice age, were wiped out or absorbed, nobody is quite sure. And given the Norse invasions of the 5th to 11th centuries, much of Scotland (east coast, north coast, west coast and the Isles) had more in common with eastern England than it did with south and central Scotland.

England wouldn't feel the impact in any significant way. We're talking about around 5 million people in Scotland and around 58 million in the remainder of the UK. And once the Scottish banks and major corporates relocate, as they have by now said they will, it starts to work quite well for England.


Ah Dál Riata (Dalriada) ... The Scoti (Roman word for the Northern Irish Tribes migrating and settling in the Western Isles of Scotland and then the Mainland .... ) hence the word Scot and Scotland.


Picti (Roman again for the painted or coloured people) ... the Picts ... blah, blah, blah, blah ....


Dude, I know my History pretty well ... we could talk this through, as have historians, till the cows come home.


"get used to it" ... you are on fire tonight .... Want to insult the Slavs, Māoris, Paki's, etc, etc (apologies for using those terms ... point being) and other races that you dislike or have an issue with? In fact you probably think Aussies are in that mix too, dirty Colonials!


Yup, happy to get used to it ... oh what is it, used to what? .... lots of intelligent individuals like yourself obviously feel hurt by the underclass that they had being trying to save for 700 years plus (that's obviously tongue and cheek) ... and look how they've treated you now! Not Happy that Scottish Regiments in the British Army were feared beyond reason, and died helping London (more like slaughtered as were a lot of Colonials)! They're not happy about the fact that Billions of dollars went into and are still flowing into the British coffers through Scotland and the locals have no say or benefit. Scots probably aren't smart enough to do all these things without the help of London ...


So ... blah, blah, blah, blah ....


You're probably thinking the sentiments of the Gaullish War Lord, Brennus. Who sacked Rome before it became an Empire and declared "Woe To The Conquered". Very intelligent rhetoric in today's society ... not!


Fact - irrefutable - England doesn't want to let go! Why?


You have all the answers, so Why????


I think that was always the question .. didn't really need an attempt at a History Lesson!


Just answer the question!




This is a thing That Australians may not have seen before .... fortunately too far removed from this ... racism has nothing to do with the colour of your skin! Then again, ANZAC Cove should resonate!


Actually, you know what?


I apologise to the members of this Forum for being so involved in this conversation.


My Family moved here in 1981 ..... leaving a lot of stupidity behind was quite a relief. Love this Country, served 21 years defending it! ... well I was in the RAAF, so take that with a grain of salt :-)

[Celtoid]

The rump UK would treat Scotland a bit like it treats Norway or Denmark. Some other country, not too far away, on the small side financially and in terms of population, not threatening.

But we won't support its currency, or build our warships there, or let them send their goods through England tax free. We will welcome their banks and corporates as they set up their headquarters in London or Manchester. Helensburgh and Faslane will close of course, given the Scots don't want nukes on their territory, so those people will have to find jobs. Can probably tuck those things into Milford Haven or somewhere like. We'll not protect their fisheries, they'll need their own navy. We'll not administer their social services, they'll have to set up their own bureaucracy to do that.

Right now Westminster has to worry about Scotland and its people. If there's a vote to leave the UK, Westminster won't have that worry, since Scottish voters won't count for anything any more. On the other hand, bringing Scottish central belt jobs into northern England, that works very well for Westminster.

It's going to be fascinating to watch.

I'm just going to ignore certain stupid issues like social services (They are very important but that isn't the thrust of this Convo) ... So well financed (resourced) by the poms right now ... blah, blah, blah!


" a bit like it treats Norway" "Not Threatening"


Can you quote their financial accounts? As in how much money do the Scandinavian Nations make? I hear they are really poor .... well, no ... that isn't true ... far from it.


... have you read the 'sanitised' book '3 Para' or have you served in a war zone or have you access to the actual accounts of Afghanistan reports? The "Horn wearing Vikings that hadn't seen a fight since the 800s" (a genuine quote from the superbly stupid) made the Brits look like rank amateurs. ... unbelievable! Continually drinking your own bath water! The Nords were 'Keen as', for a fight, were well trained and supported and their logistics made the Para's look like a Charity Event!


How deep is Milford Haven? There is no "like" in the UK .... that's why the boats are in Faslane ... it's a Glaciated Fiord ... FFS! Oh ... and where is Milford Haven?..... England?.... no it's in Wales, another subducted country that asked for an English invasion ... yeah right!!!


Sorry, I got facts in the way of a good story!

[bob10]

Something not thought of the EU. From an article in the Courier Mail;


" The EU has said if Scotland splits, it would have to join the ranks of eastern European nations applying for permission to join the EU - and there would be no guarantee it would be accepted. Being ousted from the EU markets could destroy business across Scotland.
There could even be barriers for England trading with an independent Scotland as agreements exist for England to trade with those from the EU first. The biggest issue for farmers is how Scotland would sit in Europe. There is a huge amount of European money coming into Scotland , not just in agriculture, but in roads, fisheries, industry ..and would Scotland be supported or have to wait to re-apply to the EU ?


That question has not really been answered by any one. It's uncertainty, & there doesn't appear to be a plan B. 'They just say to say yes, and we'll sort it all out, but that's not the basis for a rational decision., is it? You don't agree to buy a car, then discuss the price. ' There's more, it seems no one really knows what will happen after a yes vote. Bob

[Bigbjorn]

Norway and Denmark are super prosperous. The poms were nearly bankrupt a couple of years ago. Norway has saved their oil and gas money and it appears the UK has ****ed theirs up.

Scotland should get on well with the Scandinavian nations. The highlanders and islanders (and the Irish) are as much Norse as Gael thanks to my Scandinavian forebears. Honest seafarers and merchants who generously distributed their genes and names throughout the British Isles.

[bob10]

Norway and Denmark are super prosperous. The poms were nearly bankrupt a couple of years ago. Norway has saved their oil and gas money and it appears the UK has ****ed theirs up.

Scotland should get on well with the Scandinavian nations. The highlanders and islanders (and the Irish) are as much Norse as Gael thanks to my Scandinavian forebears. Honest seafarers and merchants who generously distributed their genes and names throughout the British Isles.


Are Norway & Denmark in the EU ? If so , they would be under the same restrictions of trading with Scotland, as England. There seems to be a lot of passion involved in this vote, but I haven't seen much thoughtful debate. Not the Scottish way, I guess. Bob

[DiscoMick]

I think you'll find most of the profits from the Scottish economy are currently drained off to London rather than benefitting the Scots.
Cameron is worried because the Tories will knife him if he loses the money they are currently making out of Scotland. And UK Labour currently has most of the Scottish seats in parliament, which it would lose, making it much harder for UK Labour to win government. So both major UK parties have a lot to lose if the Scots go independent. The English need Scotland more than Scotland needs the UK.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[bob10]

. Honest seafarers ....... who generously distributed their genes and names throughout the British Isles.


As seafarers quite often do, Bob
:p

[Celtoid]

Norway and Denmark are super prosperous. The poms were nearly bankrupt a couple of years ago. Norway has saved their oil and gas money and it appears the UK has ****ed theirs up.

Scotland should get on well with the Scandinavian nations. The highlanders and islanders (and the Irish) are as much Norse as Gael thanks to my Scandinavian forebears. Honest seafarers and merchants who generously distributed their genes and names throughout the British Isles.


There's one way of looking at it ... LOL!!!


They Vikings were as bad as the Poms ... at least they had the decency to leave LOL!!! :p

[Celtoid]

Are Norway & Denmark in the EU ? If so , they would be under the same restrictions of trading with Scotland, as England. There seems to be a lot of passion involved in this vote, but I haven't seen much thoughtful debate. Not the Scottish way, I guess. Bob





That's because the Scots are stupid Bob, everybody knows that ... it's been well documented ;).

[Celtoid]

Something not thought of the EU. From an article in the Courier Mail;


" The EU has said if Scotland splits, it would have to join the ranks of eastern European nations applying for permission to join the EU - and there would be no guarantee it would be accepted. Being ousted from the EU markets could destroy business across Scotland.
There could even be barriers for England trading with an independent Scotland as agreements exist for England to trade with those from the EU first. The biggest issue for farmers is how Scotland would sit in Europe. There is a huge amount of European money coming into Scotland , not just in agriculture, but in roads, fisheries, industry ..and would Scotland be supported or have to wait to re-apply to the EU ?


That question has not really been answered by any one. It's uncertainty, & there doesn't appear to be a plan B. 'They just say to say yes, and we'll sort it all out, but that's not the basis for a rational decision., is it? You don't agree to buy a car, then discuss the price. ' There's more, it seems no one really knows what will happen after a yes vote. Bob


I guess this is all part of the fear campaign that will probably work.


In theory the worse case scenario would only happen if it's made to happen, if people or organisations choose to be divisive. It's hardly the actions of freedom loving democratic people.


Trade is a two way street and I'm sure it's in nobodies interest for Scotland to not be allowed to trade. Maybe Scotland would benefit from choosing to trade elsewhere anyway ... maybe that's the underlying fear too ... who knows?


Most of the issues could be rubber stamped and made to go away if an effort was made to do that.


I dislike the fact that a Country that is entitled to its autonomy (Just Like Australia) is getting bullied as part of others political agendas. England will be weakened and a lot of people/countries are worried about that, including a lot od Scots too I'd wager. I think that's the crux of it all.

[bob10]

I guess this is all part of the fear campaign that will probably work.


In theory the worse case scenario would only happen if it's made to happen, if people or organisations choose to be divisive. It's hardly the actions of freedom loving democratic people.


Trade is a two way street and I'm sure it's in nobodies interest for Scotland to not be allowed to trade. Maybe Scotland would benefit from choosing to trade elsewhere anyway ... maybe that's the underlying fear too ... who knows?


Most of the issues could be rubber stamped and made to go away if an effort was made to do that.


I dislike the fact that a Country that is entitled to its autonomy (Just Like Australia) is getting bullied as part of others political agendas. England will be weakened and a lot of people/countries are worried about that, including a lot od Scots too I'd wager. I think that's the crux of it all.


Mate, I think you just don't get it. Passion over common sense. Tassall. Bob

[DiscoMick]

The English Queen and Charlie might be not amused if their holiday homes were in another country, the precious little pearls as they are.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[JDNSW]

The English Queen and Charlie might be not amused if their holiday homes were in another country, the precious little pearls as they are.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

It may be worth remembering that their ancestor was king of Scotland first and became king of England later. It is very likely that the queen and her successors would remain queen of Scotland same as today. Same situation as Canada, Australia, NZ etc.

John

[mools]

One little mentioned aspect is that a certain percentage of votes are likely to be cast along sectarian lines. The orange gathering tomorrow is likely to highlight this.

It amazes me just how many questions remain regarding the future of an independant Scotland post any decision to devolve. I would want these answered before making any decision or else the new state could find itself at the mercy of the next uk parliment, and more to the point the subject of a UKIP power grab on the back of the English having their nose out out of joint.

As far as integration into Europe goes an independent Scotland is unlikely to find much sympathy with a number of member states. After all if it were seen to be easy / a fait accompli it would be encouragement to regions such as Catalunya and Northern Italy, can't see that being popular with some existing states. It'll likely be back of the que for Scotland - behind Ukrane perhaps?

I'm with London Boy on this it will be interesting to see how it plays out and may well be to the benifit of the under invested and often overlooked Northern regions of England.

Personally I think it would be a shame and may well be seen by future generations as a mistake. But l guess we'll see.

Still, either way the Union flag won't change it'll just have more history attached to it.

The whole 'brave heart' notion in which some people choose to view this in, to me, appears ludicrous. Theses are very important decisions that will affect generations of UK citizens and are not to be taken lightly. So why lowere the voting age to 16!

Ian.

[Bigbjorn]

They Vikings were as bad as the Poms ... at least they had the decency to leave LOL!!! :p

They didn't leave. Where do you think the red hair and great size came from. And the names are still there. Neilsen = McNeil, Olafsen = McAuliffe, Larsen = McLaren, and so on.

[rangietragic]

I still don't see how it will be of benefit to scotland to split from the uk.Apart from a lot of nationalism.Like a lot of aussies i have some scots blood in my veins,as well as others.It will only be to their advantage if they can have their cake and eat it too.It is a serious step that needs a LOT of careful consideration.Whatever happens i wish them well.

[Bigbjorn]

I recall working with a Glasgow born boilermaker at ED's yard. He would almost get violent when called a pom. "Ah'm nay F++++++ pom. Ah'm a Scot and dinna ye fugit it".

[Celtoid]

Mate, I think you just don't get it. Passion over common sense. Tassall. Bob



On the contrary mate, I think it's you that can't. Your Pommie Passion over right to be.


You deny Scots have been treated like and Underclass?


You think because of the complications, they should just continue to take it in the neck for Britain? Really?

I haven't actually stated which way I'd vote, have I? However, that is not important.


I just said that it's their right and they shouldn't get friggin bullied for wanting to exercise that right .... not hard really.


So yes there are huge concerns about the outcome but getting constantly F'd over for a country that has a right to independence makes it a very, very difficult situation. The concept isn't that hard.


Fact - Scotland Produces a disproportionate amount of wealth for the UK .... and could produce more if opportunities weren't stymied .. But the wealth shouldn't matter should it?


Fact - there is no commensurate return in any way to Scotland.


Fact - in modern times ... not ancient or people living in the past - Scottish people of all demographics are clearly stating that they have had enough. Why is that do you think? 50 years ago the idea would have been held by only a few ... but it's causing such a commotion now ...why is that? People from all demographics from the unemployed to the very rich professionals .... something has changed .... why? Cause they watched Braveheart?


Geez, Australians would rightly get the poops if their State didn't reap the benefits of their industry, etc.


This is so similar in some ways and yet, so, so different in others.


It won't happen Bob, but it should serve as a friggin massive wake up call for tools in power thinking that they can just take everything for granted. Shame a lot more folk on the other side of the fence don't see it that way.

[Celtoid]

It may be worth remembering that their ancestor was king of Scotland first and became king of England later. It is very likely that the queen and her successors would remain queen of Scotland same as today. Same situation as Canada, Australia, NZ etc.

John




I very much doubt that.


There would be no monarchy, alliance to or connections beyond the Scottish border.


That's what started all the crap in the first place ;-)

[Celtoid]

They didn't leave. Where do you think the red hair and great size came from. And the names are still there. Neilsen = McNeil, Olafsen = McAuliffe, Larsen = McLaren, and so on.


What, another history lesson? Surely not.


I know, the Vikings were in Britain for hundreds of years ... and left their ... mmm ... mark ... I was trying to keep it light!


Meh ....

[London Boy]

So you're speaking for England now ... you're the decision maker? If that's the general sentiment no wonder Scotland is pushing so hard to break free!
Actually, my sentiment is I'm tired of the whole discussion. If the Scots vote yes, good luck to them. They'll need it, for a whole pile of reasons.

If they vote no, then it's devo-max, but that will need an English vote. That will be even less pretty, but hey... I'm Australian, so what is it to me?

The Tory issue with the vote is that they a Conservative, i.e. they don't want things to change. They like the union, but it is of no practical consequence to them if it ends, except for the higher likelihood they will be in power a bit more often.

Ending the union feels wrong, to them anyway, so they resist.

[London Boy]

You deny Scots have been treated like and Underclass?
How long did you live in Scotland? I assume you're not still there...

[London Boy]

The English need Scotland more than Scotland needs the UK.
Quite the oposite in fact. The majority of learned opinion speaks of the asymmetry in their relative bargaining positions. After all, Scotland has 5 million people, England about 53 million. England has more of almost everything in terms of economic activity.

[London Boy]

Norway and Denmark are super prosperous. The poms were nearly bankrupt a couple of years ago. Norway has saved their oil and gas money and it appears the UK has ****ed theirs up.

Scotland should get on well with the Scandinavian nations. The highlanders and islanders (and the Irish) are as much Norse as Gael thanks to my Scandinavian forebears. Honest seafarers and merchants who generously distributed their genes and names throughout the British Isles.
Mostly the cash went to the welfare state and to pay off the national debt that has been hanging around since WW2 and beyond.

You have to add eastern England to the mix. I lived for a while in the Danelaw, except is wasn't called that by then of course. But lots of place names retain their Nordic roots, for example.

That's why we shouldn't be too upset about William the Bastard, despite his invasion in 1066 and the wasting of the North. At least he wasn't French, he was also Norse. Your lot got everywhere...

[bob10]

On the contrary mate, I think it's you that can't. Your Pommie




WOW! Passion before common sense, I appreciate your passion for Scotland . A heads up. I was born here, in Brisbane , my grandmother was part aboriginal, great grand mother full blood, on my fathers side. On my mothers side, English, & Irish. One Scotsman married an aboriginal, on my fathers side. Makes me pretty mixed up eh? I will not mention the Kiwi who snuck under the radar. Don't you dare call me a pom. . Bob edit, took out an a word not needed.

[Chucaro]

:eek: and I was under the impression that I was the only hot blooded here.....

Cool down friends, have a valium :D

[bob10]

:eek: and I was under the impression that I was the only hot blooded here.....

Cool down friends, have a valium :D


Sorry, mate, got a little bit fair dinkum, the blood was up, Bob

[Celtoid]

WOW! Passion before common sense, I appreciate your passion for Scotland . A heads up. I was born here, in Brisbane , my grandmother was part aboriginal, great grand mother full blood, on my fathers side. On my mothers side, English, & Irish. One Scotsman married an aboriginal, on my fathers side. Makes me pretty mixed up eh? I will not mention the Kiwi who snuck under the radar. Don't you dare call me a pom. ******. Bob


I'm sorry Bob .. I know it's a heinous Crime to call somebody a Pom.

[Chucaro]

Bob, Is a single or a double malt "nectar" that keep you warm in the head? :D
I have more than a couple and they made me very relaxed to the point that I am do not bother to read one of the thread here that in a normal conditions will make me writing things that would keep the moderators in their toes :D

[Celtoid]

:eek: and I was under the impression that I was the only hot blooded here.....

Cool down friends, have a valium :D


My Friend Chucaro, I've been smiling the whole way through :D


Often laughing...

[bob10]

Bob, Is a single or a double malt "nectar" that keep you warm in the head? :D
I have more than a couple and they made me very relaxed to the point that I am do not bother to read one of the thread here that in a normal conditions will make me writing things that would keep the moderators in their toes :D


I am a passionate Australian. No more , no less. And enough of a larrikin to stir the pot. And fight if any one wants to put up their hands. And , a very good mate, if you need one. Bob

[Chucaro]

My Friend Chucaro, I've been smiling the whole way through :D


Often laughing...

Good mate, we cannot allow any issue to affect the spirit of friendship and camaraderie that we have here :)

[85 county]

So how does Scotland benefit from all this?. Pat

i have not read all the responding post to this so forgive me i have duplicated anything.

the details have not been nutted out and will not be until after the count

north sea oil is not as big as one would first think, plenty of maps on the interweb of where the rigs are.

Scotland has been a drain on pommy taxpayer for decades now. hard to see how the average scot would survive with out the pommy DOLE.

join the EU open borders, i can see Scotland becoming a muslum country quite quickly, and the poms building a wall

[85 county]

Fact - Scotland Produces a disproportionate amount of wealth for the UK .... and could produce more if opportunities weren't stymied .. But the wealth shouldn't matter should it?

you are joking right???



Fact - there is no commensurate return in any way to Scotland.



the poms pay you the DOLE do they not?? id the EU going to do that for the scotts??

[DiscoMick]

Scotland's population isn't much bigger than Sydney's. I'm pretty sure Scotland produces a decent income which could support five million Scots to a reasonable standard of living if it wasn't being siphoned off to London and not coming back.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Bigbjorn]

Mostly the cash went to the welfare state and to pay off the national debt that has been hanging around since WW2 and beyond.

You have to add eastern England to the mix. I lived for a while in the Danelaw, except is wasn't called that by then of course. But lots of place names retain their Nordic roots, for example.

That's why we shouldn't be too upset about William the Bastard, despite his invasion in 1066 and the wasting of the North. At least he wasn't French, he was also Norse. Your lot got everywhere...

My wife family traces back to Hrolfgangir, first Duke of Normandy, via knights in the service of the Seigneur of Sark and an uncle of William. She reckons she has a better claim to the British throne than Betty the German and her crew of usurpers. She is now wondering if she will have a claim to be Queen of Scots if the referendum votes in favour of separation.

I gather from historians writing that it was not wise to refer to Uncle Willy as "The Bastard" in his hearing. Consequences were swift and nasty. Taught his son well. William Second Rufus was regarded by contemporary scribes as being "excessively cruel", even by the standards of the time.

[85 county]

Scotland's population isn't much bigger than Sydney's. I'm pretty sure Scotland produces a decent income which could support five million Scots to a reasonable standard of living if it wasn't being siphoned off to London and not coming back.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

the numbers do not agree, but what you have written here is the STD pro Yes line.
by siphoned of i guess you mean they pay taxes. ok they stop paying tax's to the poms, but they still have to fix there roads, build a new democracy. and there income is not that great.

maybe over time they could build an economy, but who nis going to pay the dole for them in the mean time?

and remember non of this is sorted yet, if the vote is YES then they will have to sit down with the pommy government and cut a deal. and that is not going to be an easy thing. then an application to join the EU. etc not so simple and they are doing this on a vote for a better std of living when they can not support there current std of living atm.

you often read that there economy would be better if the poms didn't stop them. how what are the poms stopping them?

[DiscoMick]

The fact that the Cameron government is desperately trying to bribe them to vote No by proposing to return more of Scottish taxes to Scotland suggests what has always been true historically - the English have always diverted lots of Scottish revenue on a one-way trip to London. Five million Scots should be able to run a modest local administration for their own benefit by not paying for lots of things in England which London insists on funding. Other small countries in Europe are doing it well, so so could the Scots.

The English seem to be mainly worried about their own financial system, not what's good for Scotland long-term.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/432045/banks-brace-for-scotland-vote

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[85 county]

The fact that the Cameron government is desperately trying to bribe them to vote No by proposing to return more of Scottish taxes to Scotland suggests what has always been true historically - the English have always diverted lots of Scottish revenue on a one-way trip to London. Five million Scots should be able to run a modest local administration for their own benefit by not paying for lots of things in England which London insists on funding. Other small countries in Europe are doing it well, so so could the Scots.

The English seem to be mainly worried about their own financial system, not what's good for Scotland long-term.

Banks brace for Scotland vote | Bangkok Post: news (http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/432045/banks-brace-for-scotland-vote)

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The link you posted is about a possible cash run on the banking system. It has nothing to do with nor is it supporting your case that the poms keep the Scottish revenue.

5 million people do not actually get to fund much, --- look at NZ for example. and NZ has a higher income per head than Scotland.

you say " the Cameron government is desperately trying to bribe" I have read no such activities, what I have read is the YES lobbyists stating higher std's of living and other such fantasy promises. which appear to me to look like bribing.

[DiscoMick]

The link you posted is about a possible cash run on the banking system. It has nothing to do with nor is it supporting your case that the poms keep the Scottish revenue.

5 million people do not actually get to fund much, --- look at NZ for example. and NZ has a higher income per head than Scotland.

you say " the Cameron government is desperately trying to bribe" I have read no such activities, what I have read is the YES lobbyists stating higher std's of living and other such fantasy promises. which appear to me to look like bribing.

I posted that link in support of my comment that the English seem mainly concerned about maintaining their financial system, not what's good for Scotland. Still think that's true.

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[85 county]

I posted that link in support of my comment that the English seem mainly concerned about maintaining their financial system, not what's good for Scotland. Still think that's true.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

nope you are reading something to it thats not there

[DiscoMick]

Don't think so.


This legal expert reckons if the Scots went independent and retained the Queen as the Queen of Scotland she would also be the Queen of Britain, but no longer be the Queen of the United Kingdom. Since Australia draws the monarch from the United Kingdom, if there no longer was a monarch of the United Kingdom, then our Governor General would have no-one to report to. No idea if that stacks up legally, but its interesting...
Scottish referendum: Yes vote to independence could leave Australia without head of state, expert says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-26/scotland-referendum-could-leave-australia-without-head-of-state/5696770)

[London Boy]

This legal expert reckons if the Scots went independent and retained the Queen as the Queen of Scotland she would also be the Queen of Britain, but no longer be the Queen of the United Kingdom. Since Australia draws the monarch from the United Kingdom, if there no longer was a monarch of the United Kingdom, then our Governor General would have no-one to report to. No idea if that stacks up legally, but its interesting...
Scottish referendum: Yes vote to independence could leave Australia without head of state, expert says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-26/scotland-referendum-could-leave-australia-without-head-of-state/5696770)
He's talking out of the wrong end. The UK comprises Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Technically the UK will become Britain and Northern Ireland, but will remain the UK. The constitutional entity will not change, any more than Australia would cease to be Australia if, say, WA was to secede as it keeps threatening to.

A bigger question is whether the Queen can remain directly Queen of Scotland, and the stronger arguments appear to suggest that she will need to appoint a Governor-General.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Don't think so.


This legal expert reckons if the Scots went independent and retained the Queen as the Queen of Scotland she would also be the Queen of Britain, but no longer be the Queen of the United Kingdom. Since Australia draws the monarch from the United Kingdom, if there no longer was a monarch of the United Kingdom, then our Governor General would have no-one to report to. No idea if that stacks up legally, but its interesting...
Scottish referendum: Yes vote to independence could leave Australia without head of state, expert says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-26/scotland-referendum-could-leave-australia-without-head-of-state/5696770)There is always an expert out there.

The Federation of Australia was created by an Act of Parliament in London at which point it became a country in its own right, although with some ties back to GB. That is a historical fact even if there ceases to be a parliament on the Thames or ceases to be a United Kingdom.

Remember Elizabeth II is also Queen of Australia in her own right (I'm not sure if that makes her Q. Betty the First of Oz), so if the England or the UK ceased to be a constitutional monarchy she would still be QEII with her only constitutional responsibilities as Head of State of the Commonwealth or merely of those Commonwealth Countries who still maintain her as Head of State.

[101RRS]

Also that under current legislation that a future UK Monarch could be a different Monarch of Australia.

Until recently the Aussie legislation reflected the Uk legislation where the Monarch was to be the first born son. However the UK legislation has been recently changed so the Monarch to be the first born - irrespective of sex.

So if Prince George had actually been born Princess Georgina then she would be the future Queen of the UK but if the new bub in the oven was born a boy then this person would be the future King of Australia.

Now obviously our legislation will get changed but if it didn't in the future we could have a different monarch to the UK - in theory at least.

[DiscoMick]

This is what the preamble says:


reamble)

An Act to constitute the Commonwealth of Australia. [9th July 1900]
(The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom at Westminster)
Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and under the Constitution hereby established:


Seems pretty clear the Commonwealth of Australia exists as 'an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom at Westminster' and 'under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.'
If the Queen becomes separately the Queen of Britain and Ireland, and the Queen of Scotland, and the Queen of Australia, but is no longer the Queen of the United Kingdom (because the kingdom is no longer united), what happens?
At first I thought this was just a joke, but the more I read the less crazy it sounds.

[Redback]

If the scots get independence they will still want all the benefits of the union such as the pound ect.Oh and about our flag,LEAVE THE BLOODY THING ALONE:mad:It actually says where we come from and who built our country.
Wait for it,here they come:p

NO IT DOESN'T:mad:

It only shows part of where we come from, no Irish, Welsh, Italian, Greek, USA, Pacific Is, China, Malta, Vietnam, Indiginous, and so on and so on, we already have five flags with the Union Jack in the corner, 6 counting the national flag, one less won't hurt surely.

Back to Scotland

Good on them if they vote yes, I know my Scottish side of the family will vote yes, my Mother was always talking about independence from England.

The Scots are pretty good at most things, England would have been lost if not for the engineering skills of the Scots.

I'm pretty sure they will be fine;)

Baz.

[THE BOOGER]

I think your forgetting the Australia ACT 1986 substantially rewrites much of that:)

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2004C00704

Cuts all ties with Westminster and the UK govt

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This is what the preamble says:


reamble)

An Act to constitute the Commonwealth of Australia. [9th July 1900]
(The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom at Westminster)
Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and under the Constitution hereby established:


Seems pretty clear the Commonwealth of Australia exists as 'an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom at Westminster' and 'under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.'
If the Queen becomes separately the Queen of Britain and Ireland, and the Queen of Scotland, and the Queen of Australia, but is no longer the Queen of the United Kingdom (because the kingdom is no longer united), what happens?
At first I thought this was just a joke, but the more I read the less crazy it sounds.QEII or her successors will remain the Crown of whatever it be: England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Even if Her Majesty (or Her successors) may have no constitutional role, just like the King of Greece, Italy and numerous other European Royals, Her Majesty will still retain the title. The arms of government however may change from being of "the Crown" to something like "the Government of England, Wales and Northern Ireland". Just like they do in the US of A.

The fact that the title stated in the Australian Constitution changes, it doesn't invalidate any Laws in Australia because those powers are vested in the Governor General of Australia and not in QEII Herself.

[bob10]

The border. Some excellent photos, Bob


BBC News - Scottish referendum: The view from the border (http://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-29059373)

[DiscoMick]

I think your forgetting the Australia ACT 1986 substantially rewrites much of that:)

Australia Act 1986 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2004C00704)

Cuts all ties with Westminster and the UK govt


That's a very interesting link, but after a quick glance I don't see anything immediately obvious which answers the question of what happens constitutionally if the UK ceases to exist.


I assume we'd just trot along anyway, business as usual, since the monarchy has no relevance to daily life in this country and most people wouldn't notice any difference. And I guess the GG could just write his reports and send them to the Queen of Australia rather than to the Queen of the United Kingdom.

[THE BOOGER]

As there are no longer legal ties I would think we just carry os before and forget about the UK park as irrelevant:)

[DiscoMick]

English politicians unite in their desperate attempts to bribe the Scots into rejecting independence. All three politicians have a lot to lose if the Scots break away.


BBC News - Scottish independence: Cameron, Miliband and Clegg sign No vote pledge (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29213418)

[DiscoMick]

So, as the Scots vote, I thought this was a good summary of what's been happening.
An independent Scotland? (http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/an-independent-scotland,6908)

[TerryO]

Geeze I don't know what all the fuss is about, I reckon Hadrian had the right idea. If they vote yes then its simple just rebuild the wall and leave them to their deep fried Mars Bars and even worse deep fried Pizza. ... ;)

Plus if they are so proud of being a Scot and want to relive the good old glory days of being independent, then they should prove it and the best way to do that is paint themselves blue and run around naked as their forefathers did. ... :eek::angel:

After all they didn't even invent the thing they are most famous for, being whiskey, the Irish did who we all know are a far superior race compared to your average Scot. ... :D

[DiscoMick]

Hadrians Wall certainly was an impressive structure, but it only kept the Scots out as long as the local farmers were prepared to join the local Roman legions to learn how to defend themselves from Scottish raiders. Once the Romans left, it all fell apart.
I see some pranksters set up a mock Scottish Border Control Post the other day to get themselves on TV keeping the English out of Scotland!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Geeze I don't know what all the fuss is about, I reckon Hadrian had the right idea. If they vote yes then its simple just rebuild the wall and leave them to their deep fried Mars Bars and deep fried Pizza. ... ;)

...You forgot chicken tikka marsala, the traditional Indian/Pakistani recipe invented in Glasgow.

[Bigbjorn]

Rudyard Kipling wrote that one could call out "Hor-wee, Jock" down the engine room hatch of any British flagged ship and get a reply. He also mentioned that Jock may have a dusky visage or wear a turban but his heart was in the Highlands.

[Celtoid]

Aw you guys aren't taking this seriously at all .... **** stirrers! ;-)

[discovery39]

Vote for "Independence"
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONO


Just sayin...........:)

[85 county]

Aw you guys aren't taking this seriously at all .... **** stirrers! ;-)

Hell yes, even the Russians are all serial over it

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/11-reasons-why-scotland-should-join-russia-following-a-yes-vote/507303.html

[85 county]

and following from that link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS2VnDveP8

[robbotd5]

Alba gu brath!!!
Regards
Robbo

[85 county]

Alba gu brath!!!
Regards
Robbo

i do not think this is the thread for an ISS war cry

[TerryO]

i do not think this is the thread for an ISS war cry


Actually I think it translates to "Fried Mars Bars Forever" ... ;)

[Celtoid]

Hell yes, even the Russians are all serial over it

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/11-reasons-why-scotland-should-join-russia-following-a-yes-vote/507303.html


















Freakin Hilarious .... ;)

[Celtoid]

and fortunately none of you have a vote :D

[Celtoid]

i do not think this is the thread for an ISS war cry



ISS? ... I seriously hope that isn't what I think it is!

[85 county]

and fortunately none of you have a vote :D

yes fortunately. we are not scots. Im not on the DOLE i do not drink to much nor do i wish to wear a skirt.

having said that the most common accent in Ababajarn is scots.

the real concern is that, Scotland will go broke so the scots will move here. probably to Perth which is not a real problem because Perth is way the **** over there and there is a dessert in between. BUT the scots will displace the poms and then they will move over here. and that will ****me off because i am from red neck scots irrriush decent so i hate the poms,

[85 county]

Actually I think it translates to "Fried Mars Bars Forever" ... ;)

cant do much damage with a fried mars bar.

actually i thought it was a quote from Team America

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIlG9aSMCpg

[robbotd5]

i do not think this is the thread for an ISS war cry

What the hell is an ISS???
Regards
Robbo

[Celtoid]

yes fortunately. we are not scots. Im not on the DOLE i do not drink to much nor do i wish to wear a skirt.

having said that the most common accent in Ababajarn is scots.

the real concern is that, Scotland will go broke so the scots will move here. probably to Perth which is not a real problem because Perth is way the **** over there and there is a dessert in between. BUT the scots will displace the poms and then they will move over here. and that will ****me off because i am from red neck scots irrriush decent so i hate the poms,


I think you're pickled in the clear stuff mate ....


The ISS question?

[85 county]

What the hell is an ISS???
Regards
Robbo

well according to local rumor they are recruiting in Australia

108 ISS Australia jobs | Jobseeker.com.au (http://www.jobseeker.com.au/ISS-Australia-jobs)

[robbotd5]

well according to local rumor they are recruiting in Australia

108 ISS Australia jobs | Jobseeker.com.au (http://www.jobseeker.com.au/ISS-Australia-jobs)

Nothing to do with that....keep guessing or google it.

[85 county]

Nothing to do with that....keep guessing or google it.

??? work for the Dole???

[robbotd5]

I think you're pickled in the clear stuff mate ....


The ISS question?

Cut him some slack mate, he's a Kiwi.:D:D
Regards
Robbo

[85 county]

Cut him some slack mate, he's a Kiwi.:D:D
Regards
Robbo

of scots decent, so 2X damned LOL

[robbotd5]

of scots decent, so 2X damned LOL

Well, you should know that "Alba" is Scots Galic for "Scotland" gu brath roughly translates "for ever"

[Celtoid]

well according to local rumor they are recruiting in Australia

108 ISS Australia jobs | Jobseeker.com.au (http://www.jobseeker.com.au/ISS-Australia-jobs)


Oh those jobs ... I see?


Sorry I misunderstood you.


I often apply for those but still seem to be underqualified .....


How did you get yours? The cleaning fluid you use? ;-)


Unfair advantage ....

[85 county]

Well, you should know that "Alba" is Scots Galic for "Scotland" gu brath roughly translates "for ever"


why SHOULD i know that? my great great great great great grandfather was smart, he got out.

[Celtoid]

Well, you should know that "Alba" is Scots Galic for "Scotland" gu brath roughly translates "for ever"


Gu Brath!!!

[Celtoid]

why SHOULD i know that? my great great great great great grandfather was smart, he got out.



I see pretty little bubble in my glass ... they smell like paint stripper alas ...

[85 county]

Gu Brath!!!

Na your accent is wrong, its more like AKA DAKA AKA DAKA

[85 county]

Oh those jobs ... I see?


Sorry I misunderstood you.


I often apply for those but still seem to be underqualified .....


How did you get yours? The cleaning fluid you use? ;-)


Unfair advantage ....

Na could not get one ether, over qualified i am told, so i made my own.

unlike the scots Kiwis can not get the Dole in australia

[Celtoid]

Na could not get one ether, over qualified i am told, so i made my own.

unlike the scots Kiwis can not get the Dole in australia



Shame, it sounds like they are prejudiced against you. I could give you a number to call.


I own a recruitment agency ... I Really do .... :-) LOL


Let me know if you need my support :-)

[85 county]

Shame, it sounds like they are prejudiced against you. I could give you a number to call.


I own a recruitment agency ... I Really do .... :-) LOL


Let me know if you need my support :-)

cant be hard on them they are only aussies. besides if they do not like the way we imports run there country they can always leave.

and lets face it if they need a scot to get them a job???

Im sweet on the support, but i have a number for you, i think the scots will need soon.

Address: 5 Arkana St, Yarralumla ACT 2600
Phone:(02) 6281 2716:D:D:D

[Celtoid]

cant be hard on them they are only aussies. besides if they do not like the way we imports run there country they can always leave.

and lets face it if they need a scot to get them a job???

Im sweet on the support, but i have a number for you, i think the scots will need soon.

Address: 5 Arkana St, Yarralumla ACT 2600
Phone:(02) 6281 2716:D:D:D


No, I think Australians looking after Australia will be fine ... well in light of the crap that's going down recently I truly hope so. But that issue transcends Australia.


Oh, OK mate, I won't bother checking that address or number, 'cause you're a stand up dude. Should all be above board.


Anyway, just let me know ... you just never know when you may need a contact.


Cheers,


Boris.

[TerryO]

cant be hard on them they are only aussies. besides if they do not like the way we imports run there country they can always leave.
D


Hey County you got to stop using my line ... :p

And I still reckon those strange words RobotD5 was mumbling earlier actually means 'Fried Mars Bars Forever' by the way.

[bob10]

Just a heads up from an old Scottish mate, if Dundee votes no, no will win. If Dunfries & Galloway vote yes, yes will win. At least, I think that's what he said, he was mumbling at the time, under the influence of a single malt. Could have been talking about Crocodile Dundee, & Galloway pipe, no one can understand him on the grog, Bob

[85 county]

just had a thought, while we are making light of the topic. i think some of the Scots are all serial about the topic. Nationalism/ patriotism is a powerful force. It has been used to make war and exterminate millions of people.

And Scotland has an interesting and violent history, while Englands systems started with William the bustard. Scotland had the product of rape instead. Robert the Bruce was the product of rape. His mother spotted a lone rider. So she rode out subdued him. dragged him home and had his way. All cave man like, or cave woman in this case. I think that says it all. Scottish women are ugly?. I guess that’s why the poms couldn’t breed them out and why they kept on raiding the poms

[Eevo]

Th Uk govt has a plan for reducing binge drinking by 90%....
its called scottish independence.

[Redback]

Vote YES:D

[THE BOOGER]

At this stage looks like the nays have it;)

[Redback]

At this stage looks like the nays have it;)

Buggar Jacobites all over Scotland will be turning in their graves:(

[85 county]

Buggar Jacobites all over Scotland will be turning in their graves:(

why? do they think the vote is about making England Catholic again?

[bob10]

All in favour? All against ? the nayes have it, Bob


SCOTS GUARDS - Bagpipes - Flowers Of The Forest. - YouTube

[bob10]

United we stand, divided we fall. Bob


London Scottish Pipes & Drums - Highland Laddie/Black Bear - YouTube

[Redback]

Scottish pride
Amy Macdonald - Flower of Scotland (HQ) - YouTube

No changes, sad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP8A9rtg0iI

[Chucaro]

Looking at how divided it is the country, IMHO there is not a winner :(

[85 county]

a reasonably close run thing. but i doubt that will be the end of it.

Nationalist or national pride is no light thing, i suspect that the UK central government has payed to little towards development in there far north.

its a hard thing to take when you see fancy boat lifting rigs and over size ferrous wheels when your on the dole.

further confirmed by the area that did support the yes has i higher portion of poor, or low income family's and just not enough work for the population.

the government must address this. i do not know how or what but a simmering nationalism will do the country no good

[rangietragic]

I think they made the right choice. Independence is fine if you can stand on your own feet,if not?

[101RRS]

if the United Kingdom is one country comprising the enties of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - how come the country that is the UK does not participate in the Commonwealth Games but the non existent places called England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland participate as countries.

Surely if this is permitted - each of Aust individual States and Canada's states should compete as individual countries.

Garry

[Mick_Marsh]

Was chatting to an American friend the other day. Yes the subject of gun control and the second amendment. The American friend was against repealing the second amendment because it is a right. He was using other circular arguments.
Keep this thought in the back of your mind.

We had a referendum some years ago on becoming a republic and it failed. I get the feeling the majority of people in Australia think cutting ties with the UK, and yet, the referendum failed. I know I voted against it.

I explained this to our American friend. "Why wouldn't you want independence?" he asked.

"I reckon it's for the same reason you won't repeal the second amendment." was my reply. I reckon the Scottish independence vote failed for the same reason.
"The reason" I said to the American friend, "is because we don't trust the politicians."
"That's it!" said the American friend.

So, I reckon any referendum involving the people trusting the politicians to do the right thing will fail.
If the politicians want to remove the second amendment or achieve Independence, they should have all the detail written down and planned well before hand. Give full disclosure to the people. Give them the full picture to act on.

Just voting on independence is open to lots of misinterpretation.

[bob10]

There is a winner. Democracy. A member state pushed for independence, using the democratic process. No shooting, no riots, [ although probably a good idea to steer clear of Glasgow pubs for a while] The people chose . Now it is up to Westminster to deliver on promises made before the referendum. That's the way our democratic society does it. Not like another mob in the news. Bob

A fairer go for all, not just Scotland;
BBC News - Scotland votes 'No': What happens now? (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29252899)

[Eevo]

if they allowed the english to vote. it might of been a different outcome.

[Chucaro]

As long as they keep distilling the good quality single and double malt "nectar" I do not care about the result.
Having said that our Tasmanian whisky is far superior :)

[bob10]

Well, Dunfries & Galloway no, Dundee Yes. Have a look at this , puts it in perspective, Bob


BBC News - How Scotland voted - final tally broken down by area (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29275035)

[bob10]

The World was watching, Bob

Especially;
Catalonia, Quebec, Kashmir, Tibet & Xinjiang, South Tirol [ Italy], Venice, Po river valley [ Italy], Romania [ Szeklerland] ,


and the vote has implications for when/ if the UK has a referendum on leaving the EU.
BBC News - How Scotland's 'No' vote resonates around the world (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-29272728)

[101RRS]

So the Scots can now be correctly be called Poms :)

[ramblingboy42]

the fat lady has sung...........

[Chucaro]

Now the struggle is in Spain, Italy and Belgium..........
The Catalonia referendum is in November.

[incisor]

One in four Americans want their state to secede from the U.S., but why? | Jim Gaines (http://blogs.reuters.com/jamesrgaines/2014/09/19/one-in-four-americans-want-their-state-to-secede-from-the-u-s-but-why/)


interesting read...

[Chucaro]

Interesting article Dave, I just wonder what will be the situation in Canada between east and west.

What it is happen the the world?
Look the Flemish in Belgium, the Catalans in Spain, etc.

[Celtoid]

So the Scots can now be correctly be called Poms :)

Oh Garry, I got called a ****** on this forum for suggesting that an individual was Pommie leaning (mainly cause he hadn't read the sentence).


Fortunately Scots and people with Scottish ancestry have a better sense of humour .... :D

[THE BOOGER]

I always think of poms as specifically English:)

[mikehzz]

Interesting article Dave, I just wonder what will be the situation in Canada between east and west.

What it is happen the the world?
Look the Flemish in Belgium, the Catalans in Spain, etc.

So the Flemish would call their new country Flem? I'd like to see that. :D

[TerryO]

One in four Americans want their state to secede from the U.S., but why? | Jim Gaines (http://blogs.reuters.com/jamesrgaines/2014/09/19/one-in-four-americans-want-their-state-to-secede-from-the-u-s-but-why/)


interesting read...


Interesting article but even more interesting to read some of the comments, many echo comments from in here about government.

After reading some of them a quote from Churchill came to find. ... The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

[vnx205]

... .... ...

... The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

Or as some anonymous person said, "The problem with democracy is they count heads, not brain cells."

[Chucaro]

Interesting article but even more interesting to read some of the comments, many echo comments from in here about government.

After reading some of them a quote from Churchill came to find. ... The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

That was a very arrogant quote, I prefer the one for José G. Artigas ( the father of Uruguayan nationhood) who said to the people:

"My authority emanates from you and she stops before your sovereign presence."

[TerryO]

Unfortunately just because the quote is some what arrogant doesn't actually prove that it is incorrect.

[Chucaro]

Unfortunately just because the quote is some what arrogant doesn't actually prove that it is incorrect.

So you think that those "that think that are smarter than others" have the right to make the decisions on their behalf ?
In my book it is incorrect :)

[TerryO]

Chucaro yes I do when it comes to the government, right or wrong those who are elected to govern should be able to govern.
If they stuff it up then three years later you can vote them out. This allowing a Senate to stop a recently elected government from introducing its policy whether they are Labor or Liberal is just plain wrong.

As for the quote, was the man who made it smarter than most? Well in my opinion yes Winston Churchill was smarter than most and time has shown that he was not only one of the greatest leaders and strategic thinkers but also one of the best judges of character the world has ever seen.

Here's another one of his quotes to contemplate. ... 'Any 20 year old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain.' .... ;)

[incisor]

This allowing a Senate to stop a recently elected government from introducing its policy whether they are Labor or Liberal is just plain wrong.

and most would agree,

if they actually did after the election, exactly what they said they were going to do in the run up to the election.

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. Ignorance may deride it. But in the end, there it is.
- - - Winston Churchill

[Chucaro]

and most would agree,

if they actually did after the election, exactly what they said they were going to do in the run up to the election.

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. Ignorance may deride it. But in the end, there it is.
- - - Winston Churchill

It is so simple answer that i cannot understand why some people cannot see it !

I would like to add that if the electorate was prepared to give a government full control then it should have majority in the senate.
No the case here, no mandate.

[bob10]

Ghandi on meeting Churchill. Bob


What do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan141784.html)

Mahatma Gandhi (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan141784.html)


Churchill was a consummate politician, arrogant , ruthless, self serving, but the right man for the times.

[TerryO]

It is so simple answer that i cannot understand why some people cannot see it !

I would like to add that if the electorate was prepared to give a government full control then it should have majority in the senate.
No the case here, no mandate.


Then the majority should stop whinging when nothing gets done to fix the big problems and or some half baked compromise that achieves bugger all only gets up because some nong from the shooters or drivers party has the final say.

[TerryO]

and most would agree,

if they actually did after the election, exactly what they said they were going to do in the run up to the election.

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. Ignorance may deride it. But in the end, there it is.
- - - Winston Churchill


My Churchill quotes are better than your Churchill quotes ...:tease:

The Conservatives have since the election done exactly what any person who watches politics in this country new they were always going to do, no matter what they said prior to make sure they got elected.

No real surprises there and what does it say about a system that politicians feel they have to stretch the truth or leave important things out just to get elected even when they have a clear majority of the people wanting change?

I think the answer to that question is in that first Winston quote I used unfortunately.

[vnx205]

After reading some of them a quote from Churchill came to find. ... The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

Churchill also said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Interestingly, he said it after losing the July 1945 election.

He may have lost the election, but obviously he hadn't lost his sense of humour.

[Chucaro]

This one is a good one IMO

Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
George Bernard Shaw

[vnx205]

There are more good democracy quotes here. Most of them display a healthy degree of cynicism. :)

Democracy Quotes - The Quotations Page (http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/democracy/)

I will leave it for people to select their own favourite. :)

[incisor]

My Churchill quotes are better than your Churchill quotes ...:tease:

geez and there were two you could have thrown back at me..

oh well..


off for an ice cream :D:D:D

[bob10]

This is a well put together article, a must read, IMO, Bob


BBC News - Viewpoint: What now for Britishness? (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29276463)

[incisor]

http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/CB/5FC811293AD5A9DB35439FB797BC1B.jpg

[Redback]

“On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people.”
“Odd,” said Arthur, “I thought you said it was a democracy.”
“I did,” said Ford. “It is.”
“So,” said Arthur, hoping he wasn’t sounding ridiculously obtuse, “why don’t the people get rid of the lizards?”
“It honestly doesn’t occur to them,” said Ford. “They’ve all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they’ve voted in more or less approximates to the government they want.”
“You mean they actually vote for the lizards?”
“Oh yes,” said Ford with a shrug, “of course.”
“But,” said Arthur, going for the big one again, “why?”
“Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard,” said Ford, “the wrong lizard might get in.”

Douglas Adams

[Celtoid]

The World was watching, Bob

Especially;
Catalonia, Quebec, Kashmir, Tibet & Xinjiang, South Tirol [ Italy], Venice, Po river valley [ Italy], Romania [ Szeklerland] ,


and the vote has implications for when/ if the UK has a referendum on leaving the EU.
BBC News - How Scotland's 'No' vote resonates around the world (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-29272728)


There is some very good reading here and some very interesting points.


It seems intriguing that so many 'watchers' (being other interested parties from around the world) state that they couldn't believe that Cameron, the British Government ever allowed the Referendum to happen. I think there is now some cynicism beyond the Scots, about the validity of the offer.


I think it's very possible that it was a nothing more than a Dog & Pony Show trying to gain votes. Where there was never any concept that the British Government would have to concede anything, let alone a whole Country.


Then the panic set in ... promises made ....and now it looks like there are already words of retraction. Go Figure.


1.6+M voted yes ....but you'd be stupid to think that many more voted no, only because of the concern, the threat!


Another very interesting point from the German Chancellor, or words connected to that story. Is the UK thinking about pulling out of the EU completely? I'd heard rumours for years ... plus the fact (which I think was smart) that they never fully engaged in some areas ... the currency being one.


Interesting that the whole 'trade' threat was used against Scotland, when the UK may be considering leaving anyway .... who are they going to trade with, if the EU is the only answer?


Thoughts?

[85 county]

There is some very good reading here and some very interesting points.


It seems intriguing that so many 'watchers' (being other interested parties from around the world) state that they couldn't believe that Cameron, the British Government ever allowed the Referendum to happen. I think there is now some cynicism beyond the Scots, about the validity of the offer.


I think it's very possible that it was a nothing more than a Dog & Pony Show trying to gain votes. Where there was never any concept that the British Government would have to concede anything, let alone a whole Country.


Then the panic set in ... promises made ....and now it looks like there are already words of retraction. Go Figure.


1.6+M voted yes ....but you'd be stupid to think that many more voted no, only because of the concern, the threat!


Another very interesting point from the German Chancellor, or words connected to that story. Is the UK thinking about pulling out of the EU completely? I'd heard rumours for years ... plus the fact (which I think was smart) that they never fully engaged in some areas ... the currency being one.


Interesting that the whole 'trade' threat was used against Scotland, when the UK may be considering leaving anyway .... who are they going to trade with, if the EU is the only answer?


Thoughts?

simple reality, if you look at the reaction around the world there seems to be a collective sigh of relief. but this would be for there own reasons and not exactly if it was good for the UK or Scotland itself.
the surprise at the pommy government allowing the vote at all is really an indication of the lack of democracy of the Peaple who were surprised.

and again is no refection on the pommy government.

however, the pommy government must realize that some investment is needed in the north. the issue is not going to go away with the vote. there is odiously a large number of people who feel disenfranchised to hark after fanatic history and the blind and foolish believe that they would be better off on there own.
i think the ensuring violence sort of confirms that!

But how will it affect us in Australia?? apart from a thread in a forum and a couple of Scottish Mates who bore the crap out of me with there distorted view of history and inability to see that the majority of what they are complaining about is actually there own folt and not the governments. the winging pom of the 50s-60s has been replaced by the winging Scot.

[Celtoid]

:-) :-) :-)

[Celtoid]

simple reality, if you look at the reaction around the world there seems to be a collective sigh of relief. but this would be for there own reasons and not exactly if it was good for the UK or Scotland itself.
the surprise at the pommy government allowing the vote at all is really an indication of the lack of democracy of the Peale who were surprised.

and again is no refection on the pommy government.

however, the pommy government must realize that some investment is needed in the north. the issue is not going to go away with the vote. there is odiously a large number of people who feel disenfranchised to hark after fanatic history in the blind and foolish believe that they would be better off on there own.
i think the ensuring violence sort of confirms that!

But how will it affect us in Australia?? apart from a thread in a forum and a couple of Scottish Mates who bore the crap out of me with there distorted view of history and inability to see that the majority of what they are complaining about is actually there own folt and not the governments. the winging pom of the 50s-60s has been replaced by the winging Scot.


Ensuing violence .... show's what you know ... standard Saturday Night in Glasgow .... :D


Gone the next day!!!


No bombs, no Armoured Vehicles randomly shooting, no general massacre ....

[TerryO]

Gentleman,

Seriously this needs to calm down now thank you.

[Celtoid]

Gentleman,

Seriously this needs to calm down now thank you.

Terry,

I was cool as a cucumber when I wrote that.

I was demonstrating how de-constructive it can be when there are topics that could be discussed but aren't because of the completely, unnecessary inflammatory language that's used by some.

I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

Cheers.