Modifying ARB bar to suit winch

[Rugrat]

Ok I understand the good and the bad about the winch stresses etc.
My question is " Has anyone modified their ARB Deluxe Bar to allow for a winch using a 3rd part cradle".
If so what were the pain points and what would they change / did they alter?
Or has anyone had a fabricator retro fit a cradle?

Simply swapping over the bar for a winch compatible is crazy $$$ waste so I am looking at the other options.

[nismine01]

Well having looked at my DII ARB non winch bar I wouldn't try modify or hang a winch off a non winch bar without the manufacturer's approval (possible legal ramifications).

ARB put a sticker on their (my) bar stating "no modifications" to it.

It has been stated on this forum that with a cradle you can fit a winch to a non winch bar. My question would be, are the 'crush cans' the same between winch and non winch bars, if not the cans may not be capable of handling the extra weight. If not, can you get crush cans to suit a winch bar, you might then fit a cradle in/to the bar for the winch.

My option was to fit the winch in a cradle mounted in the chassis rails (referred to as discrete) behind the crush cans, in my mind this gained having the weight lower down and further back reducing the pendulum effect going over bumps.

This was all done on a DII, I don't know what chassis length you have between crush cans back to the first X member on the chassis.

It still requires the bar to be modified a little to allow the cable through, I'm happy this way.

Cheers

Mike

[Trngia]

Same issue for me to so will be interested to hear the comments. I have an arb non-winch bar on my D3 and current choice is likely to be an OL winch bar but will cost a fortune. Might be the only option though.

[gossamer]

Does anyone know if the plate the winch is mounted too is avail (see the middle pic of page 18 of the attached document) i know their is probably more to it than just buying the plate and welding it in but its the right shape and a good start
http://arb.com.au/media/products/3232200-16-25-362/ARB_3232200_fitting.pdf

[ARB 4X4 Accessories]

Hi guys,

Just so everyone is aware, it is not possible to convert a non-winch bull bar into a winch capable bull bar.

Cheers
David

[Redback]

If you want a winch on your car without buying a winch bar, fit a seperate winch cradle to the vehicle behind the bar, see them all the time on vehicles with alloy bars.

Can't see why you can't do the same with the non winch ARB bar.

Baz.

[AnD3rew]

Hi guys,

Just so everyone is aware, it is not possible to convert a non-winch bull bar into a winch capable bull bar.

Cheers
David

Anything is possible if you have the right gear/time/money/skill/courage/stupidity, but that doesn't mean you should do it. Might be more helpful if you were to provide some explanation of why it is a bad idea rather than just say it isn't possible, some may just see that as a challenge:)

[Rugrat]

If you want a winch on your car without buying a winch bar, fit a seperate winch cradle to the vehicle behind the bar, see them all the time on vehicles with alloy bars.

Can't see why you can't do the same with the non winch ARB bar.

Baz.

Hence the question as to whether anyone had :).

I have found a fabricator willing to look at modifying the bar so it is winch compatible.
Also have access to cradle - so its horses for courses
- the bar would need modification (cutting & strengthening) if a cradle was fitted behind it so I am leaning towards the fabricator as they will strengthen and build a mount / cradle into the bar - of course its then not an ARB Winch bar but a XYZ winch bar.

[ARB 4X4 Accessories]

Anything is possible if you have the right gear/time/money/skill/courage/stupidity, but that doesn't mean you should do it. Might be more helpful if you were to provide some explanation of why it is a bad idea rather than just say it isn't possible, some may just see that as a challenge:)

That is very true, AnD3rew!

The reason we state that this "isn't possible" is due to the design of our bars. A non-winch bar simply does not have the structure and bracing to incorporate a winch and the associated loads.

Many manufacturers simply weld (or sometimes bolt) a winch cradle into the centre pan to accept a winch. Our bars are built around a different principle and have the required bracing and support integrated into the structure of the centre pan at the time of manufacture.

Modifying the bar is not something we would recommend for a number of reasons (ADR and vehicle warranty to name a few).

Hopefully that makes a little more sense.

[nismine01]

As I mentioned in my answer earlier on this thread, I made one up for my Disco II.

Measure the width between the 'crush cans', be ACCURATE as 1mm too much and the cradle will not fit, 1mm less and the cradle will be a little loose but will fit and the bolts will pull it to the chassis. Measure the distance between the 'V' out (the give point) in the crush cans back to the first X member, radiator support whatever. This support is gusseted at the corners, don't worry about the gusset, just measure to the X member.

What dimensions do you have, please let me know through this thread and I will check them with the DII, I may be able to get one knocked up for you.

Cheers

Mike

[101RRS]

Hence the question as to whether anyone had :).

I have found a fabricator willing to look at modifying the bar so it is winch compatible.
Also have access to cradle - so its horses for courses
- the bar would need modification (cutting & strengthening) if a cradle was fitted behind it so I am leaning towards the fabricator as they will strengthen and build a mount / cradle into the bar - of course its then not an ARB Winch bar but a XYZ winch bar.

Regrettably your new bar will no longer be compliant for the Disco and as such not legal to be fitted.

Bars have to be certified by the manufacturer as suitable for the vehicle it is fitted to. Does your fabricator have the skills and facilities to legally recertify the modified bar?

[Kevin B]

Watching with interest as I want to do the same on a D1

[Rugrat]

Regrettably your new bar will no longer be compliant for the Disco and as such not legal to be fitted.

Bars have to be certified by the manufacturer as suitable for the vehicle it is fitted to. Does your fabricator have the skills and facilities to legally recertify the modified bar?

Valid points Garrycol...

Does the company have the skills to modify - Yes. They specialise in bar work, front, rear steps and other.

Legally re-certify? Now thats an interesting question!
Will it be ADR compliant - yes.
Can it be certified as vehicle compliant - that would depend on what is required.

Though - if i have a certified and compliant bar and then add or remove ANY item (antenna mount, light bracket, put an extra hole in it no matter how small, etc there could be 100's of items) does it not also alter the compliance and legality?


As I said though valid points-

[101RRS]

Will it be ADR compliant - yes.


No it will not. Any modifications to the basic structure of the bar (adding a winch cradle) will mean it needs to be re-certified - including certifying it is still airbag compliant.

ARB (and OL) have the D3 bar which with minimal modification will fit the RRS - same basic car. But even with all the resources of ARB they will not certify the D3 bar to fit the RRS. So I think you are pushing it for you fabrication company to produce what you want legally.

Sell what you have and buy a winch bar.

Garry

[winaje]

Sell what you have and buy a winch bar.

Completely agree with this. The cost difference should only be a few hundred dollars, and work done by a qualified engineering shop would likely cost that anyway.

Keep the vehicle legal, and protect your vehicle and TAC/CTP insurance intact.

[Tombie]

As I mentioned in my answer earlier on this thread, I made one up for my Disco II.

Measure the width between the 'crush cans', be ACCURATE as 1mm too much and the cradle will not fit, 1mm less and the cradle will be a little loose but will fit and the bolts will pull it to the chassis. Measure the distance between the 'V' out (the give point) in the crush cans back to the first X member, radiator support whatever. This support is gusseted at the corners, don't worry about the gusset, just measure to the X member.

What dimensions do you have, please let me know through this thread and I will check them with the DII, I may be able to get one knocked up for you.

Cheers

Mike

Front of a D3 is nothing like the front end of a D2.... So the cradle between the rails idea isnt a go.

[Rugrat]

Ok for us Victorians this is what I can glean / find out from Vic Roads.
As well as complying with the Vehicle Standards Information 1, Bull Bars, the bull bar must meet the design requirements of the Australian Standard Vehicles fitted with an air bag or manufactured to comply with Australian Design Rule (ADR) 69 or ADR 73, can only be fitted with a bull bar which:-
• Has been certified by the vehicle manufacturer as suitable for that vehicle; or,
• Has been demonstrated by the bull bar manufacturer to not adversely affect the vehicle’s compliance with ADR 69 or ADR 73 or interfere with any critical air bag timing mechanism as the case may be.

Demonstration of compliance with ADR 69 or ADR 73 requires full scale barrier testing. Similarly demonstrating that the critical air bag timing mechanism is not affected when a bull bar is fitted may also require full scale barrier testing.

ADR 69 applies to all new model passenger cars manufactured on or after 1 July 1995.
ADR 73 applies to all new model passenger cars not exceeding 2.5 tonnes GVM, manufactured on or after 1 January 2000.



Does it clear it up 100% - no but its made my mind up for me ;) Still open to some interpretation but clear enough that my original question has been answered either way.

SO for me its back to the drawing board if I wish to remain squeaky legal and compliant.
Thanks to all who offered their opinions.
What can be done and what can be deemed legal - is where you must interpret it yourself.

[gossamer]

Arb sell both winch compatitable and non compatitable bars. Assuming winch compatitable just have extra reinforcing where the winch goes then all you are doing is adding what they left off. are you altering the design of the bar? no, are you altering how the bar effects the airbag sensors? no the crush cans remain the same. i would be very suprised if an insurance assessor could remove a crumpled bullbar off a car and see the difference, its not like you are fitting an xrox or tube bar.
What are people opinion of hidden winch mounts? do they comply?

[Tombie]

They are significantly different in their construction and design.