IT as an occupation?

[WhiteD3]

No 2 son has just lodged his QTAC application for 2015. From those of you in the game, what are you thoughts about going into IT?

Money, opportunities, happiness, security of employment (Not in that order).

He's always been good at IT at school and has done Math B & C, IT and physics in senior.

His QTAC preferences are:

Bachelor of Science/Bachelor of Information Technology
Bachelor of Engineering/Bachelor of Information Technology
Bachelor of Engineering Technology in Electronic and Computer Engineering

At the GU open day a few weeks ago the presenter said there were 1800 457 visas issued for IT last financial year. His point was of course that there are job in the industry.

[Ranga]

No 2 son has just lodged his QTAC application for 2015. From those of you in the game, what are you thoughts about going into IT?

Money, opportunities, happiness, security of employment (Not in that order).

He's always been good at IT at school and has done Math B & C, IT and physics in senior.

His QTAC preferences are:

Bachelor of Science/Bachelor of Information Technology
Bachelor of Engineering/Bachelor of Information Technology
Bachelor of Engineering Technology in Electronic and Computer Engineering

At the GU open day a few weeks ago the presenter said there were 1800 457 visas issued for IT last financial year. His point was of course that there are job in the industry.

I think with international outsourcing, and the ability to seek jobs anywhere in the world, the bubble has burst some time ago for the whiz-bang high paying jobs that you hear about. These types of jobs may allow him to bring his inherent skill to what may be a non-traditional IT role.

Our IT dept has a very high proportion of English as a second language employees - possibly 80%. I've wondered is it due to poor pay or conditions that these people are willing to accept (that 'Aussies' won't) or they were simply the best candidates. I must say, it seems to be a very dreary place to visit - lots of faces staring at screens in small cubicles.

Perhaps advise him that so many other fields allow you to have exposure to IT type tasks - what office job these days don't you have your face stuck in a screen?

Also, many IT jobs are nothing like you learn in school or at home - the opportunity to cover a little bit of everything, with the ability to focus on what you enjoy. The IT field is so broad, that you could be cutting code all day for some really boring goal, to working at Google or Apple 'changing the world'. Unless you're looking at management, you'll probably need to specialise.

Not to say every company is like that, but if were up to me, I'd only be interested in working in our IT dept if I was in a management/decision making role.

I could go on and on...

[Rosco8]

Been in IT nearly 40 years, great job and career if you can pick up a job. Issue as you rightly said is the amount of outsourcing in Australia, primarily to India. To put it into perspective a fellow IT work mate, a high caste Indian that I have worked with for 25 years, said a couple of years ago its getting to the point where he needed to send his 2 boys (both doing IT at Uni) back to India to get a job in Australia !! So its a lot harder to get a job as it once was, but there are still jobs, but a lot more competition. A lot of IT people I have worked with have moved successfully into business jobs.

Another way to look at it, is that IT has become part of lots of jobs, so its a great skill to have behind you. Mix it with a management degree, or sales and marketing, or an engineering degree or ..... something else he may be interested in and it gives a lot more flexibility into the job market.

Money - comparatively IT pays well
Opportunities - harder than it was, once experienced though the USA and the Middle East do like Aussie IT people
Happiness - yep, but you need to do the hard yards and get lots of experience in different roles; support, development, architecture, technology
Security of employment - not like it was, however if you are good then just chase the jobs/work, be prepared to travel

Good luck for your son.

[frantic]

Go look into financial IT areas, some of the basic stuff is being sent os but with it growing and everyone wanting customisation there is a large area in that field. Another area to look at is health, with that sector growing they need locals who can do what is needed for that situation. My brother is in IT in health and my BIL is in financial/super fund IT.

[Bytemrk]

White D3,,

Is he going into IT because he thinks he will make lots of money doing it... or because he has a genuine passion for the subject.

If the former...forget it. If the later, chances are he will be good at it and find a way to make a good living.

I run a small IT department of 8 staff (Mix of infrastructure and development roles) in a non IT company (Marketing organisation.).
The IT people that do very well in our business are those that:
a) Have a real passion for what they do.
b) Can communicate well with non technical people as well as computer systems.
c) Remember that IT is there to support business processes in most cases ...sometimes it's what the business needs that is important rather than the best technical way to do something.

Good luck with it.... It's a challenging time in a kids life. I've got one that started Architecture at Uni this year.. only to decide after great results in semester one...that she doesn't want to be an architect... All we can give them is guidance and support.... after that it's up to them...

[isuzurover]

Not in IT myself but deal with several large IT organisations regularly and have a lot of friends/relatives in it. Most people I know have changed jobs on average every 2-3 years - sometimes through choice other times without.

The low level/entry level stuff like tech support/sys admin/install has low pay and low job security.

More job security and more interesting work (if not a lot more money) can be found in areas like HPC (supercomputing) and other niche fields.

In the past there has been a lot of high paying positions in industries selling (specialised technical) software or mining hardware+software to the mining industry, however these are drying up to some extent.

If he is passionate about it, the key is to develop skills needed by some of these non-mainstream areas - e.g. C++ , OpenMPI, etc, etc...

All the guys doing standard stuff in windows and java are the ones getting outsourced....

EDIT: I would recommend doing an Elec/mechatronic/compter systems/microelectronic engineering degree with or without a double degree in IT. This will give a wider range of employment opportunities later.

[Dougal]

I worked for an automation company that decided after I was gone that mechatronics engineers would be the hot ticket. They've found out those guys don't have enough mechanical or electrical knowledge to do either well. They are now back to hiring mechanical or electrical engineers.

It doesn't matter which engineering discipline you study these days. You will be immersed in computer coding if you want to be.

[London Boy]

No 2 son has just lodged his QTAC application for 2015. From those of you in the game, what are you thoughts about going into IT?
I've been in IT since around 1980, and tried most things in the industry. I'd say if he can do a decent engineering degree, he should go for that. Do some IT along with it - it's good to understand IM and IT, given the way the world is going these days - but don't rely on it as a career option. It is getting ever more competitive.

[MBZ460]

Wish I had never got into IT.
I look longingly at so many trades who actaully get away from a desk and make something worthwile. Physically engineering something.

[DiscoMick]

He obviously likes IT so its important to do something you enjoy, rather than being in jobs you hate.



Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Dougal]

He obviously likes IT so its important to do something you enjoy, rather than being in jobs you hate.



Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

It is important the difference between enjoying a subject and enjoying working in that field.

[steveG]

I've been in IT for about 15 years now, but was originally an aircraft mechanic.
We only have a small IT department of 8-10, with only 2 of us in the infrastructure/network side of things, the others are more application/data/business support and minor development.
We're part of a business that's involved in various retail support operations.
I have no regrets about moving into full time IT, but consider myself an "general IT mechanic" rather than a specialist.

I've never worked in a large IT department, but deal with quite a few of them. People that excel in large organisations we find generally struggle with the flexibility/agility of smaller business (probably true for not just IT). Something to keep in mind if you son has a personality that either needs a lot of structure, or prefers variety.

As others have said, there's an element of IT in most things nowadays. Unless your son just oozes computer geek and gets a buzz out of it, I think the best approach is to work it in with something else that he has talent for.
My youngest daughter is quite IT-savvy, but finds "IT" boring.
She's did a multimedia degree, and is now in a web design and email marketing role that combines her graphics side with some IT stuff.

With IT being so broad, if your son is looking at just pure IT, try and work out which area he enjoys, and why. Networks, development, hardware, application support etc etc.

Steve

[WhiteD3]

Thanks guys.

As a lot of you have said, IT alone may have it's issues.

Matt's always had a keen interest in things IT but he wasn't sure he'd be interested enough to do it full time. As such he's intending to enrol in a double degree of either Science/IT or Engineering/IT.

Time will tell.

IMO school leavers have far too many choices these days. To a point where confusion can reign. This year we started looking at IT Multimedia, then elec engineering, then psychology, criminology and finally a double degree of IT with science or engineering.

As a parent I have struggled to understand and explain the differences, subject matter, career options and costs of all these.


I too work in a small (20 bodies) tech company doing building automation. We do our project IT in-house as there's not much to it and most of our guys are savvy enough to muddle through.

We subcon our office support IT with (IMHO) mixed results. I often have the impression I know more than the drones our IT contractor (another small business) sends to our office and I dread letting them anywhere near my PC.

Cheers.

[DiscoMick]

IT/engineering sounds more work focussed than IT/science, particularly under a government cutting funding for science.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Bytemrk]

IMO school leavers have far too many choices these days. To a point where confusion can reign. This year we started looking at IT Multimedia, then elec engineering, then psychology, criminology and finally a double degree of IT with science or engineering.

As a parent I have struggled to understand and explain the differences, subject matter, career options and costs of all these.

.

Couldn't agree more... I think they are also made to feel this is once only decision... get it wrong and the world ends... which of course is bunkum.

Hell the IT Networking roles that I have spent most of my IT career in...didn't even exist when I left school!

I'd agree with what others have said.... that IT / Engineering is likely to be a better way to go.... but only if that is what the boy really enjoys.

Good luck mate....I'm sure it will all be good in the end - he has the advantage of a family that are supporting him through this tricky stuff. ;)

[RVR110]

I've been in IT for a long time. I enjoy the technology and I enjoy the work. I would make the following comments:


IT job opportunities shift as technology shifts. You need to be willing to "surf" within the IT industry. I have reinvented myself several times to stay relevant and to stay in the better paid jobs. As a school leaver he has about 40 years of work ahead of him. The job he will be doing in 20 years probably doesn't exist today and the job he will be doing when he retires may not exist for 30 years.

IT seems to continually specialise. For example, at one time there were just "IT" project managers. These days it would be unusual to hire an applications project manager for an infrastructure project management role or vice-versa, even though the project management skills used by either are fairly similar.

As the IT industry has matured, the skill sets have become standardised. A degree may not be enough, so it would be worthwhile planning (& budgeting) for some industry qualifications on top of the degree. Something like a MCSA or MCSE if you were going down the Microsoft route, or CCNA if you were going down the Cisco route etc.

If he has the opportunity and the inclination, do a double degree. It can help in several ways... firstly, you bring a broader perspective to your role which makes you more attractive to a prospective employer. Secondly it gives you a greater variety of opportunities as a graduate. Passionate or not, ultimately you have to go where the job opportunities are, so you are better off having two possible fields of employment than one.

[Distortion]

Work in a Telco/ISP done many different jobs within the company over 10 years

A degree means very little in IT these days other than getting you a foot in the door practical knowledge and particular certifications tend to give you an edge. I would be looking at RHCSA/RHCSE rather than Microsoft stuff

But if I had my time again I would go down the Electrical Engineering path rather than Comp Sci etc as it's better money and more interesting work

and I would be reversing those preferences as will the last 2 open up far more opportunities and still be almost/if not more useful than a pure IT degree

[firsttracks]

Sorry I have to disagree with the entire university option. Most, courses are outdated, completely out of touch with industry and are TOO expensive. Double degree, forget it. My sister has a 80 grand hecs debt.

[mike123]

I've been in IT for a long time. I enjoy the technology and I enjoy the work. I would make the following comments:


IT job opportunities shift as technology shifts. You need to be willing to "surf" within the IT industry. I have reinvented myself several times to stay relevant and to stay in the better paid jobs. As a school leaver he has about 40 years of work ahead of him. The job he will be doing in 20 years probably doesn't exist today and the job he will be doing when he retires may not exist for 30 years.

IT seems to continually specialise. For example, at one time there were just "IT" project managers. These days it would be unusual to hire an applications project manager for an infrastructure project management role or vice-versa, even though the project management skills used by either are fairly similar.

As the IT industry has matured, the skill sets have become standardised. A degree may not be enough, so it would be worthwhile planning (& budgeting) for some industry qualifications on top of the degree. Something like a MCSA or MCSE if you were going down the Microsoft route, or CCNA if you were going down the Cisco route etc.

If he has the opportunity and the inclination, do a double degree. It can help in several ways... firstly, you bring a broader perspective to your role which makes you more attractive to a prospective employer. Secondly it gives you a greater variety of opportunities as a graduate. Passionate or not, ultimately you have to go where the job opportunities are, so you are better off having two possible fields of employment than one.


Agree with what RVR110 has summarised. I've been in IT for 30 odd years. When I started IT was at the start of its boom. Now I see more and more jobs going off shore. It is all around saving $ for the company.

If I had my time over I'd tie IT and Finance together in a qualification or another way to do it would be to start with IT but after 10 years pick up another qualification around Finance. This gets back to having to reinvent yourself every so often. I've gone from analyst programmer, to Ops mgmt, system admin, solution architect, IT sales support and to infrastructure project mgmt. The problem with this is I sometime feel like I'm a jack of all trades and master of none. Unfortunately the jobs today are looking for masters and having a broad cross section doesn't carry the weight that it perhaps did in the past. Hence, why I think gaining another qualification after about 10 years can be a bonus as you have something on paper.

Companies with smaller IT shops would be a good place to look as your ability is recognised more so that an large multi-national.

[WhiteD3]

If he has the opportunity and the inclination, do a double degree. It can help in several ways... firstly, you bring a broader perspective to your role which makes you more attractive to a prospective employer. Secondly it gives you a greater variety of opportunities as a graduate. Passionate or not, ultimately you have to go where the job opportunities are, so you are better off having two possible fields of employment than one.
[/LIST]

That's the plan for now. Double degree in science IT or engineering/IT.

[WhiteD3]

But if I had my time again I would go down the Electrical Engineering path rather than Comp Sci etc as it's better money and more interesting work


My sentiment too (I'm an electrician and the trade has done well by me) but he's not interested and I'm wary of trying to reinvent him in my (no doubt misguided) image :o

[Hoges]

Just thought I'd chime in here ... if he can cope with the maths, and IT is of interest, then by all means go for the electrical engineering or computer engineering... engineers have a different mindset from scientists as such.

There are over 2,000 vacancies for well qualified electrical engineers in this country...from elec eng he can then venture into systems engineering, software engineering, mechatronics... in everything from telecommunications to aerospace, robotics... by the time he graduates there will be even more disruptive technologies requiring his problem solving capabilities.

Despite comments to the contrary about universities, most third and fourth year electrical engineering students (4 yr course) have jobs lined up for after they graduate (it's a bit like football recruiters targeting schoolboy athletes). I know of companies which have paid a good proportion of the accumulated HECS debt as a sign-on bonus in return for a 5 yr contract.

A good 4 yr degree grad in elect eng these days can command starting salaries in the high 70k-85k. Most university engineering departments in Australia have deep links with top firms and they therefore cannot afford to fall behind the "latest"...because their research and development is contingent on them being at the forefront.

I wish him well indeed:D;)

EDIT: one more thing: as a rule, university engineering schools are more often than not, full of students who are practical, smart and WANT to be there and do well...they have a passion and it's contagious. QUT and UQ engineering schools are excellent. I have had no experience with Griffith so can't comment.

[EastFreo]

I don't work in IT but currently have a couple of IT consultants doing a project for us and earning eye watering salaries.

But in the large company I work for there are many more guys doing some mind numbing work. And not getting paid all that much.

I think isuzurover summed it up well with the suggestion to get into the niche areas and then as someone else said be prepared to reinvent.

But the isn't that almost the same for all of us now!

[George130]

I have been in IT for 13 years. All in health. We now out source the coding. Means I am moving into managing others instead of doing it myself. A lot of coding is done over seas but it can be satisfying to see you work grow over the years.
It's not as easy to get into these days.

[Bigbjorn]

I have a good friend now retired who started in computers in 1963 with NCR when mainframes were occupying several floors of a city building. First installing and commissioning, then repairing, then on to programming and eventually systems analysis and design. He reckons the golden era was finished in the mid-80's. Prior to then there was a severe shortage of virtually all skills in the business. If your boss gave you an unkind look or word one could tell the boss to shove his job up his cloaca and get another job that afternoon probably better paid. No degrees in computer sciences existed then. He says guys like him, company trained and learning on the job created the sciences. By the 90's he was having trouble competing against young turks with degrees so he took time off and went to uni full time to get a piece of paper to wave at the HR departments. He initially had problems at uni telling lecturers they were wrong and what they were teaching wouldn't work in practice and why. He bit his tongue and parroted teachings back to the lecturers and achieved his degree.

[Tote]

I've been in IT for a long time. I enjoy the technology and I enjoy the work. I would make the following comments:


IT job opportunities shift as technology shifts. You need to be willing to "surf" within the IT industry. I have reinvented myself several times to stay relevant and to stay in the better paid jobs. As a school leaver he has about 40 years of work ahead of him. The job he will be doing in 20 years probably doesn't exist today and the job he will be doing when he retires may not exist for 30 years.

IT seems to continually specialise. For example, at one time there were just "IT" project managers. These days it would be unusual to hire an applications project manager for an infrastructure project management role or vice-versa, even though the project management skills used by either are fairly similar.

As the IT industry has matured, the skill sets have become standardised. A degree may not be enough, so it would be worthwhile planning (& budgeting) for some industry qualifications on top of the degree. Something like a MCSA or MCSE if you were going down the Microsoft route, or CCNA if you were going down the Cisco route etc.

If he has the opportunity and the inclination, do a double degree. It can help in several ways... firstly, you bring a broader perspective to your role which makes you more attractive to a prospective employer. Secondly it gives you a greater variety of opportunities as a graduate. Passionate or not, ultimately you have to go where the job opportunities are, so you are better off having two possible fields of employment than one.


Another vote for the above that pretty much captures my career. I started out as a radio mechanic and changed to computing about 15-20 years ago. The surfing comment is particularly apt as I have had two major careers within IT over the last 10 years or so, the first being a storage specialist but moving to virtualisation as storage began to have less opportunities.
My head is still full of obsolete knowledge including how to fix manual typewriters so if you dont like having a new knowledge set every 2 years consider medicine or geology where the subject matter doesnt change as much.
One of the greatest recruitment challenges for federal departments in IT is to find graduates that are Australian citizens and are able to get a clearance. There are always opportunities in this sphere if you can meet these criteria.

Regards,
Tote

[incisor]

anything to do with medicine, money and food technology..

several guys that i helped get started over the years have done very well for themselves.

traveled the world and some now retired before me :p

you need to be able to specialise in something that they need and that tends to move over time as mentioned above...

[DoubleChevron]

anything to do with medicine, money and food technology..

several guys that i helped get started over the years have done very well for themselves.

traveled the world and some now retired before me :p

you need to be able to specialise in something that they need and that tends to move over time as mentioned above...

You need to be careful specalising to much too. I'm a programmer that's worked in healthcare (Pathology systems) for 15years. If your after money ... forget it. Some may get high wages, but I don't see it. Trying to get pay rises out of the larger companies is almost impossible. The see IT as a cost they don't want, even if it's required.

My skill set is also highly specialised, so you can't jump ship after another job easily without having to re-learn a new product from scatch. Currently they have just hired quite a few new staff to re-write a new product. 90% are indian. We are located 500meters away from a univerity that specialises in IT degrees. they have hired NO-ONE from there to my knowledge.

My assumption is indians are happy to have *any* job and will work for minimum wage. Management likes that. The local UNI students/etc will enquire at the job interview about wages and walk out. Big HECs debts, and wage offers likely less than you would get working at your local supermarket.

I wouldn't be suprised if there 457 visa workers. I work near the IBM technology center and caught up with one of the guys I went through UNI with years ago. He was telling me what IBM is doing is bring in it's existing indian workforce on 457 visas to work here. No doubt at minimum wage.

If you want job security and decent wages, forget IT, whilst indians can be imported for little money, you will not have any job security. Certainly wages will fall through the floor with the cheaper labour avaiable.

The way I see it, the only "safe" industry to get into is aged health care. Eg: nursing etc... Something that requires local certification so 457 visa workers can't just be imported to take the jobs. If they could import nurses like there doing doctors ... you'd struggle too find an aussie in hospitals among all the fresh immigrants.

Please note: I have nothing at all against immigrants, there just trying to make a life for themselves like the rest of us. The side effect of this is wages are being dragged down and jobs are very scarce.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Andrew D]

Go for an Engineering Degree. IT for hobby.

I also don't rate double degrees (Engineering/IT :thumbsdown:). Just a massive debt and no extra income. Doesn't make sense to me.

Electrical Engineering is a challenging degree and as mentioned earlier there is and appears to be a growing demand for Electical Engineers at the moment and foreseeable future (Oil and Gas anyone).

Unless your surname is Zuckerberg/Gates etc you won't be making much money in IT.

I'm a Civil Engineer and I like to work with Basic etc. but only to make my job easier and more efficient.

Also, if you have a real passion for IT ( & quick money) you would have publish at least a couple of apps by now. (this is where the money currently is at).

Regards
Andrew