Coal, environment, this will hurt

[Chucaro]

Australian export risk on China dirty coal ban (http://www.smh.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/australian-export-risk-on-china-dirty-coal-ban-20140916-10hnzb.html)

A significant portion of Australia's coal exports to China could be at risk from a Chinese government decision to block imports of lower quality "dirty" coal from 2015, potentially hitting exports worth billions of dollars.

The government has decided to limit the use of imported coal with more than 40 per cent ash and 3 per cent sulphur in the three main coal-using regions from January 1, 2015 in a bid to improve air quality, especially in the major cities such as Beijing.

[Tombie]

Yes..

They also are clamping down on Sulphur and Phos in Iron Ore...

[Chucaro]

If the coal demand is reduced and the price or demand of commodities collapse I think that we have to look very seriously of concentrating in producing food.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/905.jpg

[d2dave]

If the coal demand is reduced and the price or demand of commodities collapse I think that we have to look very seriously of concentrating in producing food.


Good luck with that. Have a read of a thread I just started and the person in question was also looking in Taasie.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/205937-chinese-buying-our-farms.html

[Chucaro]

I know mate, it is a shame :(

A BIG chunk of Tasmania’s booming dairy industry is to be sold to the highest bidder. (http://www.themercury.com.au/news/tasmania/iconic-tasmanian-company-van-diemens-land-in-170m-dairy-arm-selloff-by-new-zealand-firm/story-fnj4f7k1-1226982280219)

[frantic]

Depending upon Putin and Ukraine situation our exports could go up in value as a result of sanctions Europe could lose 30% of their gas supply , their options are limited to import gas from elsewhere or use coal for power in winter.

[sam_d]

If the mining boom is about to come to a sudden halt then it's just as well Governments (past and present) made sure the big miners paid their fair of tax and the income from that was put aside for a rainy day.

Oh, wait...

[Tombie]

If the mining boom is about to come to a sudden halt then it's just as well Governments (past and present) made sure the big miners paid their fair of tax and the income from that was put aside for a rainy day.



Oh, wait...


That little pearl is always amusing.

The mining companies do pay their pound of flesh in tax...
And salary tax
And all the income taxes (often at high rates due to income brackets)
And GST on all purchases made by the workers

Yes, mining is big money... With big risk and big overheads...

Ever wonder why the general public don't claim their piece of land and start digging? Because the cost is phenomenal....

[PAT303]

My argument also,people are quick to rubbish the resource industry but forget about all the money it generates,not just directly but indirectly from area's other than the product they are exporting. Pat

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Australia. Iron ore mining exports going down the gurgler.
Coal exports gong down the gurgler.
Manufacturing industry gone.
Agricultural industry sold off to other countries.

Welcome to the third world.

Perhaps we'll get some development aid from Africa?

[BMKal]

Iron ore mining exports are actually INCREASING at the moment.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. ;)

[d2dave]

Don' know any details but on the telly this morning the one liners scrolling along the bottom of the screen had one that said, "China's new coal laws could be good for Australia"

[DiscoMick]

Yes, China is by far the world's biggest investor in renewable energy and even its coal fired power plants are mostly newer and cleaner than ours. They are turning away from importing dirty coal at the very time our government is focusing on coal exports.
All of this just makes it even more important we continue to support investment in renewable energy because it is the big winner in today's international energy market with around half of energy investment now going into renewables.
So, we definitely should keep John Howard's highly successful Reneweable Energy Target, which will secure the current 20,000 renewable energy jobs and could save the proposed investment which could create another 14,000 jobs.
If that means we replace more dirty coal power stations with clean renewable energy sources that can only be good. SA is leading the pack averaging about a quarter of its electricity coming from wind power alone. Joe Hockey's complaint that wind generators look ugly is just selfish and ridiculous - coal mines and power stations are not exactly works of art either, but who cares as long as it works.
Coal still has a future, but it will decline in importance. The energy future of this country is too important to allow it to be hijacked by any one industry sector at the expense of the overall good.

[Chucaro]

Iron ore mining exports are actually INCREASING at the moment.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. ;)

Mate, I am :confused:

Australia undermining global iron ore prices (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-09/australia-undermining-global-iron-ore-prices/5729914)

Quote:
Weaker demand from China is one factor undermining iron ore prices, but Australia's big players are far from blameless.

They are working to eliminate competitors and a group of high-powered businessmen are the first casualties.

Tumbling iron ore prices are starting to claim their first Australian victims.

[BMKal]

Love to know where they get their info in that article Arthur (I actually read this one a few days ago via a link on the intranet at work).

They claim - "The ramp-up in output has come from Australia, which now accounts for half the world's production"

Haven't seen the 2014 production figures yet, but in 2013, Australia was the second largest iron ore producer in the world, accounting for about 18% of total production. The largest producer for the same period was China, accounting for almost 45% of total production.

I know that the three major producers in Australia are ramping up production at the moment, but I would be extremely surprised if that increase was anywhere near enough to take Australia's production from 18% of world total to 50% of world total as claimed in the ABC report.

What is happening at the moment is that the "high cost" operators are finding it hard to survive (a couple have already fallen over, including Shree Minerals in Tasmania - which I always believed should never have got off the ground in the first place).

One of the problems with the mining industry is that, whenever there is a "boom" and prices are high, all sorts of shonky operators come out of the woodwork and new mines open up which really don't stack up if you do a proper financial evaluation of them. Then as soon as the prices start to drop off a bit, these operators go bust, usually causing their shareholders to lose their money (the directors often manage to do quite well out of it though ;)).

Have a look at the iron ore miners who are in trouble now - and then look at how long they have been in the industry. ;)

I've been in iron ore mining for a few years, and it's not so often that you see this cycle in this industry - but I used to work in the gold mining industry, and these events are a regular feature of that industry. Surprisingly, this time around with the gold price having been pretty steady for a while now and at comparatively good price (in Aussie dollars) - there doesn't seem to have been the flurry of "new" gold mining companies appearing. Maybe people (investors) have started to wake up.

The other issue at the moment is that China is reportedly knocking back high impurity (mainly sulphur & phosphorus) iron ore. I read yesterday that FMG has about 6 million tonnes of product sitting in China that they cannot sell (FMG's Cloudbreak and Christmas Creek mines are both well known for high impurity levels - don't know yet what their new Solomon operations are like).

This will be interesting - because the iron ore deposits that are known to be of some of the lowest iron grade but highest impurities content - are the Chinese mines. Many of these mines are already uneconomical, but continue to operate being propped up by the Chinese Government. If these Chinese mines were to shut down, the world price of iron ore would rise significantly.

But - don't believe too much of what you read in the media about the iron ore mining industry in Australia being in trouble. That's a long way from the truth. Similarly, the claims that government revenue is falling due to the reduction in the price of iron is largely crap. Any loss due to falling prices at the moment is offset by increased volume - not to mention the currently falling value of the Australian dollar. ;)

[Chucaro]

I am not disputing your information, I am just confused for the contradicting news about the industry.
I read that India cannot extract enough ore for their own needs and it is going to be compensate for the weak demand from China. These news contradict the news in the link that I have posted.
On the other hand the ore mining investment in Uruguay (which are 2,500 million tonnes of underground iron ore deposits bringing the tiny country to be in the top 8 suppliers in the world) are suspended because the price of ore and demanding for it :eek:
Have that one work out :confused:

[frantic]

It's called figure picking. We ship and sell about half of the worlds EXPORTED iron ore, making is one of if not the biggest EXPORTER,with Brazil and Canada doing a fair bit. China MINES far more than us but use it all , creating far more employment as well. The funny thing is their ore is very low quality and they blend ours with theirs to raise the levels of iron and reduce impurities.

[BMKal]

Arthur - underground iron ore deposits are unlikely to be profitable even at a higher price than is current today - the costs of underground mining are many many times greater than open pit mining.

Most of the large iron ore mines in Australia are virtually on the surface - just strip off the grass and topsoil and you're into it. Much cheaper mining costs - and then when you look at the economies of scale of the larger mines, there's simply no comparison.

2,500 million tonnes is definitely a large quantity and will no doubt make Uruguay a major player at some point in time - but either the price will have to go up significantly, or the cheaper to mine deposits will have to be depleted (which in turn will drive the price up anyway) before this happens.

[Chucaro]

Thanks for your inputs mate, my knowledge about the subject it is very limited.
I know that it will be an open pit and that there is a lot of opposition to the mine because the size of it and some of the figures on the extraction like tons of explosives, water to be used, etc, etc.
They estimated that the mine will take 150000 ha of good land which it is a lot for a small country like Uruguay where the primary industry is very important.
The initial investment is in the orther of 3 billion dollars and I do not know the reputation of the investor that is Zamin Ferrous.
I hope that what ever they do will be good for the small nation.

[BMKal]

Don't know much (anything at all really) about Uruguay. Just looked it up and read a bit - yes, it is a very small country. Hopefully this mob will do the right thing by the country and the people there.

Reading the company's web-site, it looks as though they might be targetting India as their prime market in the longer term - appears that is where most of the senior people and the money are coming from.

Another thing that will slow them down is the fact that the ore deposit in Uruguay is magnetite and not hematite. Magnetite is usually more expensive to mine and process, but once processed, results in a better quality iron concentrate that is preferred by most of the world's steel producers. One of the greatest advantages of processed magnetite is that it typically contains far lower concentrations of the nasty impurities (silica, sulphur, phosphur) than hematite ore - and that is becoming increasingly attractive to the steel mills in places like China as they are looking to reduce pollution.

Most of the iron ore mines in Australia are hematite - main exceptions being Savage River in Tassie, Arrium (used to be OneSteel) in SA which was mining both hematite and magnetite (not sure if they still are - Tombie will know) and the newer operations in WA at Karara and Cape Preston, both of which are struggling. There are plenty of other known magnetite deposits in Australia, but most are not scheduled for production for many years due to the availability of the cheaper to mine and process hematite here. With most hematite deposits, all you have to do is dig it out of the ground, crush it and load it onto a ship.

The project in Uruguay is proposing to use magnetic separation - there have been huge advances in this technology during recent years, mostly developed by the Chinese for their low grade mines. They have developed a machine called a SLon which is a much more efficient magnetic separator than the older style machines. I have previously used the older style mag separators, and I'm currently involved in a trial project where a small scale pilot plant based around this new technology will be installed within the next few weeks - I went and looked at the equipment earlier this week. Should be interesting.

[bob10]

Arthur, check this out, Bob

Projects Overview (http://www.zamin.com/index.php/en/operations/2011-08-10-12-21-10)


Valentines (http://www.zamin.com/index.php/en/operations/valentines)


making all the right noises;


The Environment
Details Published on Friday, 15 July 2011 14:58 At Zamin we work to minimise our environmental impact and safeguard the environment, now and for the long term. Achieving a sustainable equilibrium with the natural environment is a central aspect of our business. We are continually reviewing our policies and procedures in this area to improve our performance.

As proof of Zamin's commitment to responsible environmental stewardship, in 2011 we produced the largest ever Environmental Impact Assessment in the history of Uruguay. Among other benefits which this exhaustive study brought, the EIA led to the discovery of a new species of plant in the Uruguayan countryside. The EIA also included a detailed analysis of wave patterns in the Uruguayan coast which Zamin has shared with the local surfing community and has been of value to them.

Zamin works in partnership with local communities to define ways of contributing to the sustainable development.

[mox]

Yes, China is by far the world's biggest investor in renewable energy and even its coal fired power plants are mostly newer and cleaner than ours. They are turning away from importing dirty coal at the very time our government is focusing on coal exports.
All of this just makes it even more important we continue to support investment in renewable energy because it is the big winner in today's international energy market with around half of energy investment now going into renewables.
So, we definitely should keep John Howard's highly successful Reneweable Energy Target, which will secure the current 20,000 renewable energy jobs and could save the proposed investment which could create another 14,000 jobs.
If that means we replace more dirty coal power stations with clean renewable energy sources that can only be good. SA is leading the pack averaging about a quarter of its electricity coming from wind power alone. Joe Hockey's complaint that wind generators look ugly is just selfish and ridiculous - coal mines and power stations are not exactly works of art either, but who cares as long as it works.
Coal still has a future, but it will decline in importance. The energy future of this country is too important to allow it to be hijacked by any one industry sector at the expense of the overall good.





Looks to me that solar is a viable renewable energy source but wind for generating directly into the mains is an enormous scam which greatly increases power costs to consumers while being a very inefficient way of reducing carbon emissions. Wind farm owners have been profiting from large effective subsidies which are now under threat as their lies are being exposed.


Note how South Australia is "leading the pack" along with Germany and Denmark by having amongst the highest electricity prices in the world due to its large numbers of wind turbines. Re jobs this industry supposedly creates, it destroys many more due to high power prices making electricity using businesses less viable. Power companies are compelled to prefer high priced wind power to meet renewable targets. Meanwhile, 100% backup capacity, mainly provided by intermittent and inefficient use of fossil fuel generators is necessary to maintain supply. Overall a very costly way of reducing carbon emissions.


For further information, check www.stopthesethings.com (http://www.stopthesethings.com), links from it and www.windfarmperformance.info (http://www.windfarmperformance.info).

[bee utey]

Looks to me that solar is a viable renewable energy source but wind for generating directly into the mains is an enormous scam which greatly increases power costs to consumers while being a very inefficient way of reducing carbon emissions. Wind farm owners have been profiting from large effective subsidies which are now under threat as their lies are being exposed.


Note how South Australia is "leading the pack" along with Germany and Denmark by having amongst the highest electricity prices in the world due to its large numbers of wind turbines. Re jobs this industry supposedly creates, it destroys many more due to high power prices making electricity using businesses less viable. Power companies are compelled to prefer high priced wind power to meet renewable targets. Meanwhile, 100% backup capacity, mainly provided by intermittent and inefficient use of fossil fuel generators is necessary to maintain supply. Overall a very costly way of reducing carbon emissions.




Massive rises in retail electricity costs have a lot to do with profit taking by the Asian based owners of SA power networks while the wholesale cost of wind energy continues to drop.

https://www.aer.gov.au/node/4788

No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-power-networks-owned-by-billionaire-li-kashing-makes-four-times-more-profit-out-of-us-than-its-uk-group/story-fni6uo1m-1226943633683)

blame privatisation

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/electricity-privatisation-a-dismal-failure/story-e6frg90f-1226832640683)

wind energy is cheaper

Power of the wind - how renewables are lowering SA electricity bills (http://theconversation.com/power-of-the-wind-how-renewables-are-lowering-sa-electricity-bills-9945)

Wind farms lowering electricity bills in SA | Beyond Zero Emissions (http://bze.org.au/media/releases/wind-farms-lowering-electricity-bills-sa-121031)

I could go on but I know no-one listens to evidence counter to their worldview.

[mox]

Re above quote " the wholesale price of wind energy continues to drop", so it should. Power companies have been compelled to take renewable energy at high prices when it is available. Owning wind power companies has been very profitable while there have been large legislated for effective subsidies. A preferential high price of often over two or three times the rate for base load power for a fraction of the total generated had resulted in overall high costs to consumers. As the rorts are cut back, wind power becomes less viable.





I gather no new windfarm projects have been commenced for at least a couple of years as would be developers cannot now get new Power Purchasing agreements from power retailers to lock in guaranteed high prices. Without these they cannot get finance. Also, as effective subsidies are cut back for this erratic unreliable source of power which is uncompetitive without them. it seems wind farms will go the same way Managed Investment Schemes did when tax break support for them was cut. ie Likely that soon there will be wind farm companies managed by receivers.





Excessive profiteering by the SA electricity seems one reason why prices have been so high there. Also should drop with abolition of the carbon tax. A circular from my power supplier in Victoria indicates they will be charging about 2.4 cents/kilowatt hour less due to this. However, those who examine articles such as many that have been posted on www.stopthesethings.com (http://www.stopthesethings.com) and compare them with the spin peddled by the wind industry propaganda machine will soon realise the overall cost of wind power is very high. Even though the wind itself is free.