The next Australian submarines, German or Japanese?

[bob10]

At least it might keep them all honest, Bob.


A bidding war is breaking out over Australia's next submarine contract - The Business - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-15/a-bidding-war-is-breaking-out-over-australias-next/5745804)

[Roverlord off road spares]

At least it might keep them all honest, Bob.


A bidding war is breaking out over Australia's next submarine contract - The Business - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-15/a-bidding-war-is-breaking-out-over-australias-next/5745804)

and why not Japanese, everything else here has a Toyota badge on it.
Land Rover couldn't get into the submarine business as it could not run in stealth mode... all the enemy had to do was look on to the top of the water for oil slicks indicating subs below.:(

[Jojo]

...Land Rover couldn't get into the submarine business as it could not run in stealth mode... all the enemy had to do was look on to the top of the water for oil slicks indicating subs below.:(

Besides, they cannot keep water out, can they? :cool:

[ramblingboy42]

Who bloody cares?

We don't need them.

Just stupid unjustifiable expense.

[Hay Ewe]

Who bloody cares?

We don't need them.

Just stupid unjustifiable expense.

I am tending to agree with this, but not completly.
Its a funny old game, if we dont have them, people will say we are loosing our capability.
If we do have them, people will say the cost is too much
If we dont have them we wont be a force on the world front
If we do have them, why do we need them?

I just dont know about so much stuff any more, I just want to drive my landy, ride my moto, ride my pushie and do my job

[PAT303]

The German subs are state of the art,they use stirling engines we in stealth mode which makes them a hole in the water,they are so good in fact the Yanks leasted them to learn how to fight them,they didn't succeed. Pat

[101RRS]

Who bloody cares?

We don't need them.

Just stupid unjustifiable expense.

In your opinion.

[Chucaro]

If we get the German subs, which will be, the 212 0r the 214 class?
The Germans export the 214 but their technology is inferior to the 212.
Actually the 212 it is a German/Italian sub known as the Torado class.

How it compares with the Japs?

[NavyDiver]

Bring back the O Boats? Oberon class boats had 10,350 nautical miles range

Collins class alleged 11,500 nautical miles (for the billions of our money wasted and clearly did not work)

Types 212 with 8000NM or Sōryū-class with only about 6000nm

Not that I want to get back on a Oberon class as at 6ft I do not fit:D

The range and capability we need nukes but that wont happen for many reasons.:spudnikdaddyo:
I was looking for a POT STIRRING icon really

[PAT303]

Bring back the O Boats? Oberon class boats had 10,350 nautical miles range

Collins class alleged 11,500 nautical miles (for the billions of our money wasted and clearly did not work)

Types 212 with 8000NM or Sōryū-class with only about 6000nm

Not that I want to get back on a Oberon class as at 6ft I do not fit:D

The range and capability we need nukes but that wont happen for many reasons.:spudnikdaddyo:
I was looking for a POT STIRRING icon really

Read up on the Collins class,it went pear shaped because no one wanted to take the project on and when it did start everyone then decided to put their 2c in and turn it into a **** shop.Don't blame the subs. Pat

[PAT303]

If we get the German subs, which will be, the 212 0r the 214 class?
The Germans export the 214 but their technology is inferior to the 212.
Actually the 212 it is a German/Italian sub known as the Torado class.

How it compares with the Japs?

The trouble will be no matter what we get the Navy will want to ''Australianize'' it,you know,make it suit Australian conditions what ever that is and they will then go the way of the Collins.One advantage of the U boats is they are a proven design. Pat

[cripesamighty]

The boats might be state of the art but the RANGE, or lack-there-of is the main issue.

[rangietragic]

The German subs are state of the art,they use stirling engines we in stealth mode which makes them a hole in the water,they are so good in fact the Yanks leasted them to learn how to fight them,they didn't succeed. Pat
And i thought a non nuclear sub was just a glorified u boat:confused:

[bob10]

Sweden has entered the game. They say they can preserve South Australian jobs. Sweden supplies the propulsion plants for the Japanese sub. Bob


Swedes launch desperate bid for Oz submarine project (http://www.afr.com/p/national/swedes_launch_desperate_bid_for_Z1iKrIU5k2yqU838fB kvPP)

[PAT303]

And i thought a non nuclear sub was just a glorified u boat:confused:

An American nuclear sub will only know a 212/214 U boat is hunting it when it's torpedoes are on their way,nuclear boats have huge endurance but aren't quiet. Pat

[bob10]

If we get the German subs, which will be, the 212 0r the 214 class?
The Germans export the 214 but their technology is inferior to the 212.
Actually the 212 it is a German/Italian sub known as the Torado class.

How it compares with the Japs?




It will be the projected 216 model, not yet built, Bob

[bob10]

Bring back the O Boats? Oberon class boats had 10,350 nautical miles range

Collins class alleged 11,500 nautical miles (for the billions of our money wasted and clearly did not work)

Types 212 with 8000NM or Sōryū-class with only about 6000nm

Not that I want to get back on a Oberon class as at 6ft I do not fit:D

The range and capability we need nukes but that wont happen for many reasons.:spudnikdaddyo:
I was looking for a POT STIRRING icon really


The Oberon, did a great job, a lot of which hasn't been told. Did you know Ian David Sinclair, tiffie extrordinaire? Bob


The RAN Oberon Class - Submarine Institute of Australia (http://www.submarineinstitute.com/submarines-in-australia/The-RAN-Oberon-Class.html)

[stealth]

Who bloody cares?

We don't need them.

Just stupid unjustifiable expense.

As the Romans say, " if you want peace. Prepare for war".

Some people could do with a few history lessons

[Roverlord off road spares]

Sweden has entered the game. They say they can preserve South Australian jobs. Sweden supplies the propulsion plants for the Japanese sub. Bob


Swedes launch desperate bid for Oz submarine project (http://www.afr.com/p/national/swedes_launch_desperate_bid_for_Z1iKrIU5k2yqU838fB kvPP)
This could be good for Australian much needed jobs. The Swedes could flat pack them and the Aussie workers can assemble them here in Australia, saving initial purchase costs and boost our employment.;)

[Road Stone]

Didn't the Swedes design the Collins Class.....and that was and is a complete failure?

[ramblingboy42]

someone tell me why we need subs.

someone tell me why everything the subs can do can't be done from the air.

we are talking about Australia's defence here , not attacking an enemy we don't have.

any attack on Australia, if their will ever be another , can be detected early enough to met by an efficient airforce capability.

why don't we enhance our air capability instead of wasting money on a system we will never use.

it's just toys for the big boys , or maybe old school naval officers trying to keep the navy as Australia's senior service.

[bob10]

Didn't the Swedes design the Collins Class.....and that was and is a complete failure?


That's the rub, they have ended up, after much work & money, as arguably the best conventional submarine around. The RAN can't find crews to man more than about 2, at last count. Bob

[Chucaro]

This could be good for Australian much needed jobs. The Swedes could flat pack them and the Aussie workers can assemble them here in Australia, saving initial purchase costs and boost our employment.;)

And if instead of getting the American jets we get the French Dassault we can finish assembly them here in Oz adding more jobs.
The French government is prepared to let the Brazilians assembly the Dassault planes and making components there so we can have the same kind of agreement and finish with a plane that can flight.
It appears that the Canadians are also going in that way.
F-35's French rival pitches 'Canadianized' fighter jet (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f-35-s-french-rival-pitches-canadianized-fighter-jet-1.2577234)

IMHO we need to have control of our equipment and these are a good opportunity.

[bob10]

someone tell me why we need subs.

someone tell me why everything the subs can do can't be done from the air.

we are talking about Australia's defence here , not attacking an enemy we don't have.

any attack on Australia, if their will ever be another , can be detected early enough to met by an efficient airforce capability.

why don't we enhance our air capability instead of wasting money on a system we will never use.

it's just toys for the big boys , or maybe old school naval officers trying to keep the navy as Australia's senior service.


Well, the submarine is not really a defensive weapon. It's main asset is as a blockade weapon, stopping resources & military ships moving in & out of harbours & "chokepoints " , denying enemies the resources needed to maintain the fight. Subs can remain undetected, attacking at a time of their choice, forcing a potential enemy to commit assets in defence that could be better used elsewhere. Modern subs have the capability to perform missile attacks on land based targets, remaining submerged & undetected , giving potential enemies something to think about.


Submarines , air warfare destroyers, frigates, support ships, modern aircraft , both manned fighters, drones, refuelling, & surveillance and a well equipped , modern Army , with the tools to fight & win a war on our own soil , are all part of a balanced & capable force, and can prove a deterrent to most potential enemies. Take one asset out of the equation, you weaken the whole. And that could be a disaster similar to 1941. Bob

[ramblingboy42]

yeah I know what you are saying Bob, but do you think we , Australia , could get along fine without them?

I'm just thinking that without an enemy , we don't need that expenditure.

[bob10]

yeah I know what you are saying Bob, but do you think we , Australia , could get along fine without them?

I'm just thinking that without an enemy , we don't need that expenditure.


I wish we could get along without them. And multi billion dollar aircraft. That money could be put to good use elsewhere. Can we afford to take the risk? I honestly don't really know. I know there is no point looking for these assets when you don't have them. Bob

[ramblingboy42]

Are we a neutral country?

Sweden is, and I guess based on the size of their Navy and Air Force it kind of pales us into insignificance.

My concern is the cost......how do we pay for it?

[bob10]

Are we a neutral country?

Sweden is, and I guess based on the size of their Navy and Air Force it kind of pales us into insignificance.

My concern is the cost......how do we pay for it?


Manufacture & export goods other Nations want?.........Oh....wait .. Bob

[101RRS]

someone tell me why everything the subs can do can't be done from the air.



Maritime Strike - about the only airforce aircraft capable of doing this is the P3 Orion and unless we have air superiority in the area, and that is not likely, they will not last long.

Covert surveillance and operations.

Anti -submarine interdiction.

Protection of ship formations from submarine and surface attack.

The list goes on. One of the most effective weapon platforms there is on the marine environment.

[ramblingboy42]

this is my argument Garrycol , that Australia should not be using submarines in international waters.....we have no enemy there.

if we are defending our nation and not using our defence force to support other countries at war , we will have no problem with air superiority around our own coastline and therefore have an effective maritime strike capability.

[101RRS]

this is my argument Garrycol , that Australia should not be using submarines in international waters.....we have no enemy there.

if we are defending our nation and not using our defence force to support other countries at war , we will have no problem with air superiority around our own coastline and therefore have an effective maritime strike capability.

You do not wait until they arrive - and to get here they have to travel across international waters.

They are a tool in a wide range of tools that incorporates a wide range of weapons.

In defending your own country, the aim is to fight the battles on someone elses territory not your own - eg the Western front in WW1 - the war between Germany and England was primarily fought in France and Belgium not in Germany or England.

[disco man]

From the Townsville Bulletin,By Kev Sawyer.

There has been quite a bit reported lately about the new submarines for our naval fleet and where they will be coming from. Despite criticism the Collins class submarine has proved to be an able and reliable vessel. It was designed in Sweden and yes it was built in Australia by the Australian Submarine Corporation. I believe this was the first time any Australian company was selected for this role.

I can remember some of the problems they had and original design alterations,excessive noise caused by the propellers,wrong steel then welding procedures,weapons design faults and then a major problem we still have today-political interference.So who is to say that we will not have a repeat of the same problems with overseas manufacturers?

Not to mention the fact that the proposed submarines have half the range and a new base will have to built in Northern Australia so they can still patrol the areas and they have half the speed so it will take twice as long,hence the reason why they are half the price. And once again i will remind our politicians that money spent overseas is gone forever and that money spent in Australia equals jobs and ongoing benefits to the economy.

Let's not lose the experience and the knowledge gained from the past for the sake of a dollar saved.

Some parts of the article make sense,but one part i don't get is why a new base would need to be built? HMAS Cairns would be able to support submarines. When i was on HMAS Canberra we played with HMAS Otama for a two week period based out of Cairns very successfully. Not sure if HMAS Coonawarra would be viable?

[101RRS]

From the Townsville Bulletin,By Kev Sawyer.

Not to mention the fact that the proposed submarines have half the range and a new base will have to built in Northern Australia so they can still patrol the areas and they have half the speed so it will take twice as long,hence the reason why they are half the price.



Has this guy seen the Defence Statement of Requirement/Capability of the proposed cpability to replace the Collins?

Where does the statement that the new requirement will have half the range, half the speed and need a new base come from??

i think he does not know and is just making things up - for sure he can look at the vessels that might be considered in their current form but I doubt that what we will end up with will be exactly the same submarine.

[3toes]

this is my argument Garrycol , that Australia should not be using submarines in international waters.....we have no enemy there. if we are defending our nation and not using our defence force to support other countries at war , we will have no problem with air superiority around our own coastline and therefore have an effective maritime strike capability.

As a country which has no land border with another country any 'enemy' is going to have to cross the ocean to reach Australia. A submarine by its nature is a hidden weapon that you do not know where it is. A ship is a very visible and provides a different type of physiological deterrent. Does that not make a submarine one of the most important deterrents that the government can have? To be effective a deterrent has to be balanced.

In both WW1 and 2 the submarine came very very close to starving the UK out of the war. During WW2 it was British submarines which retained control of the Mediterranean stoping German forces from being re supplied when ships and aircraft were unable to. Also during WW2 it was USA submarines which destroyed the Japanese naval forces.

In a more modern theme an aircraft cannot park itself outside a country and hover up intelligence information without being detected. A modern submarine (including Collins class) is not just about torpedoes and sinking ships.

[bob10]

Read an interesting article, some of which I will post here, Bob.
off the internet;


" The resurgence of the non-nuclear submarine is largely due to the development of Air Independent Propulsion [ AIP], which is inherently low in mechanical noise , the long range wire guided torpedo & sophisticated passive sonar . These when combined, result in submarines like the German AIP U-212, which are tiny by US standards - 18800 tons submerged & short legged- but become a black hole in the water that can fire ship killing weapons for miles in any direction. Built with special non-magnetic steel & silently propelled by an AIP engine with the ability to turn on a dime . They are designed to work in the shadows and strike at unsuspecting targets over a large patch of ocean.


The trade off for this lack of mechanical noise is energy poverty & poor endurance . AIP units often generate only as much power as a family sedan so that even banks of four produce 300 KW compared to the 30,000 KW of a Virginia class SSN. With that small output, the subs are limited to creeping along at about 2 or 3 knots. Slow speed and small hull sizes of European off the shelf subs are a bane for countries like Australia & Israel , which must send their subs great distances in what are essentially modified European coastal submarines.


These long transits must be done snorting on diesel, creating a period of vulnerability when units become essentially WW2 snorkel submarines until they reach their ambush positions. [ speed while snorting is about 12 knots] An SSG travelling 3000 to 4000 nautical miles [ Home base to the China sea, or the middle east] could take more than 4 weeks to travel there & return. An 8 week deployment would therefore mean a maximum of 4 weeks on station . Consequently , 2 submarines would have to be deployed in order to cover one 8 week period on station. A minimum of 4 subs would be needed to have 1 continuously on station in the South China Sea or the Middle East. Six if you add long term maintenance schedules, or frequent equipment failures. "


So it would seem AIP submarines are ideal for close to the continent defence of strategic targets, and if we were to combine AIP with a long range snorting conventional subs. the chances of detection whilst on transit to the operational area would be very high . That leaves...... ? Bob

[yunus400@hotmail.com]

Subs, would have to be the most potent weapon system we have ( when they work :cool:). Australia would be in dire straits if we didn't have them. They are not only used for the defence of the country but are used to snoop on others. No other platform could get that up close and personal.

Dugal

[Eevo]

our subs although have convention weapons, are more used for stealth electronic surveillance.

that capability is hard to replicate with current air force off the shelf technology.

[bob10]

For those who wonder whether a submarine capability is worth it, the answer is here. And hats off to all Oberon submarine crews. Bravo Zulu. Bob

A MUST READ
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/cold-war-exploits-of-australias-secret-submarines/story-e6frg6z6-1226742599268)

[disco man]

For those who wonder whether a submarine capability is worth it, the answer is here. And hats off to all Oberon submarine crews. Bravo Zulu. Bob

A MUST READ
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/cold-war-exploits-of-australias-secret-submarines/story-e6frg6z6-1226742599268)

I don't know how you find this stuff bob but its bloody good. Those O'boats were very good indeed, The exercise i was talking about in an earlier post off Cairns resulted in us finding Otama once on our own,and i think that was more good luck rather than good management. A lookout on the port side bridge wing got a reflection off the periscope in choppy water,so very lucky indeed. Up until that point we had no idea where she was. Even when we had an Orion involved we still struggled to find her.

[bob10]

I don't know how you find this stuff bob but its bloody good. Those O'boats were very good indeed, The exercise i was talking about in an earlier post off Cairns resulted in us finding Otama once on our own,and i think that was more good luck rather than good management. A lookout on the port side bridge wing got a reflection off the periscope in choppy water,so very lucky indeed. Up until that point we had no idea where she was. Even when we had an Orion involved we still struggled to find her.


I had mates in the game, Bob

[bob10]

From our American cousins USN, diesel boats forever. Bob


Tommy Cox - Diesel Boats Forever.mp4 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/0rFeDIU6xuw?list=PLnQSqe_d_1ywCd3U9oWSasnAJ7h_hrwm x)


Tommy Cox Gitmo Blues - YouTube (http://youtu.be/ORgMNhDZesA?list=PLnQSqe_d_1ywCd3U9oWSasnAJ7h_hrwm x)


Tommy Cox Navy Seals - YouTube (http://youtu.be/PzMoAnd4rls?list=PLnQSqe_d_1ywCd3U9oWSasnAJ7h_hrwm x)




Scorpion-Tommy Cox.wmv - YouTube (http://youtu.be/PDQodj-HLFs?list=PLnQSqe_d_1ywCd3U9oWSasnAJ7h_hrwmx)

[bob10]

This is pulling a big bow, but may be called modern chanty, or not. Bob


RAN Clearance Divers in Vietnam (Da Nang) - 1970/1971 - YouTube

[bob10]

A lot of immigrants came to Aus. from Cornwall, I believe they were the backbone of our early mining industry. Here's a song for the Cornishmen, Bob


Traditional Cornish Singing From The Sea Shanty Group Bone Idol ( Scilly Boys) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/PweXRsMQAms?list=RDhdiFYCUP9oU)




Sea shanty's in action, great film of a whaling ship leaving port




Sea Shanties in Moby Dick (1956) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/hdiFYCUP9oU?list=RDPweXRsMQAms)

[disco man]

A good one also HMNZS Waikato song from 1966 http://HMNZS Waikato song from 1966 youtube

[bob10]

The link didn't work mate try this, Bob


HMNZS Waikato Song from 1966 - YouTube

[disco man]

That's the one Bob, bloody good effort getting a seaking on the flight deck,they are a bit bigger than the little wasp.

[disco man]

Found this article today, It seems the Germans are chasing this contract very hard.

A high-powered German submarine delegation is in Canberra to demand an open competition for the nation's biggest ever defence contract-a new navy submarine. German giant ThyssenKrupp (TKMS) the parent company of leading submarine builder HDW,has launched an aggressive bid to head off Japan for the multi-billion dollar job. TKMS said it would be happy to build the boats in Australia. The company has built more than 160 diesel powered submarines and it has promised the Abbott Government that it could deliver 12 "ready for war" conventional submarines for $20 billion.

Personally i think the fact they are willing to build the boats in Australia should be looked at very closely. It seems they have been very smart in their approach to this bid.

[ramblingboy42]

I've just heard somewhere the current favourite submarines will cost an extra $29 million over the original costs?

Anyone heard anything about this?

[ramblingboy42]

my gaff...I meant $29 billion......

found the report...
Australia would lose $29 billion in offshore submarine deal: SA Economic Development Board - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-13/australia-may-lose-29-billion-dollars-in-offshore-submarine-deal/5810614'section=sa)

[bob10]

Some background, Bob


Germans look to sink Swedish sub maker - The Local (http://www.thelocal.de/20131015/52407)

[bob10]

Another option, long winded but informative. Bob [Scroll down]


http://www.securitychallenges.org.au/ArticlePDFs/SC9-4Reynolds.pdf

[ramblingboy42]

As I have said previously 'Hitler's Revenge" doesn't just stop at VW.

Germany is very quietly and systematically taking control of much of the worlds manufacturing through high quality and cost effective products.

Thyssen Krupp is a huge company that manufactures a massive range of engineering and transportation products throughout the world and if they give us what we want.....even to enabling our own work force to build these subs for a total cost of $20billion , then they have my vote.

[disco man]

Some background, Bob


Germans look to sink Swedish sub maker - The Local (http://www.thelocal.de/20131015/52407)

Very interesting article. Killing off Kockums is not a very smart move.

[bob10]

The German boat looks good, worth thinking about , I'd say. Bob


Germany fights for Australian submarine defence contract after Japan makes a bid for it (http://www.news.com.au/technology/design/germany-fights-for-australian-submarine-defence-contract-after-japan-makes-a-bid-for-it/story-fnpjxnlk-1227089049784)

[bob10]

The proposed HDW 216, Bob


https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/hdw-class-216.html

[disco man]

The proposed HDW 216, Bob


https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/hdw-class-216.html

Looks like a very good piece of kit. Land attack capability is a very welcome option IMO. I just hope they are fully kitted-out,Australia has let it's navy down many times with 'fitted for but not with' weapon systems over the years. Like i posted earlier the fact they are willing to build them in Australia has to be seriously looked at. We cannot afford to lose those skills.

[ramblingboy42]

It's very interesting that we are embroiled in a very competitive program to replace our current fleet of subs.

One thing that strikes me as funny is our govt/defence force wants to have 12 nice new shiny underwater toys , yet we don't have the numbers in our navy to man the ones we have.

I know it takes a special kind of bloke to be a submariner and today they are thoroughly psych tested before being given the opportunity.

Considering that fact that they are special , why aren't they paid accordingly , thus making the positions far more attractive and ensuring that we can get the crews to man the whole fleet.

It could start right now if the defence force is serious and a new base could be formed and ready for when the new subs come online.

Methinks they're going to be caught with their pants down and possibly no more than half the new fleet will ever be at sea.

[Bigbjorn]

Why don't we just buy some Russian Kilo Class off the hook? Unless the opposition have caught up with them, they are regarded as the best diesel-electric sub in the world.

[Eevo]

[COLOR="Navy"]

Considering that fact that they are special , why aren't they paid accordingly ,

they are. submariners make up the top 10% highest paid positions in the ADF

[disco man]

Why don't we just buy some Russian Kilo Class off the hook? Unless the opposition have caught up with them, they are regarded as the best diesel-electric sub in the world.

G'day Brian. The Collins and Upholder class boats were much better,but the Kilo's were very capable,but not as quite.

[Bigbjorn]

G'day Brian. The Collins and Upholder class boats were much better,but the Kilo's were very capable,but not as quite.

But the Collins class couldn't go to sea. They were aground on their empty bottles they spent so much time in port being fixed.

[DiscoMick]

While I'm skeptical about the value of some military hardware, I think there are good strategic reasons for us having subs to control the oceans which are our trading routes. If we can't trade, we'll go broke very quickly.
I actually think we need subs more than fighter jets. The jets have limited range and time in the air, but the subs can stay hidden for long periods. Just the threat of one of our subs popping up to confront a hostile warship could be enough to protect our trading routes.
Whether we can afford to build our own unique subs or should import a foreign design, hopefully with some local input and construction time, is another issue. We certainly could save a lot of money by adopting an existing design, which is what we do with our fighter jets, much other military hardware, and soon all our cars, for example. But it does mean a loss of skills compared with going it alone.

[THE BOOGER]

The Collins class were an adapted Swedish design we could go the same way this time take a good boat, learn from our mistakes do it better this time;)

(does not have to be a Swedish design the germen boats look good)

[disco man]

But the Collins class couldn't go to sea. They were aground on their empty bottles they spent so much time in port being fixed.

I fully understand why many label the collins class as joke,failure,piece of ****,all those things. But the simple honest truth is when they sorted all the problems they were THE best diesel boats in the world and manned by first class sailors.

[ramblingboy42]

I haven't heard cooee from the yanks.

Do they have a suitable sub for us or all theirs mega nuclear things?

[disco man]

I haven't heard cooee from the yanks.

Do they have a suitable sub for us or all theirs mega nuclear things?

G'day mate,The last US diesel sub left the fleet around 1988-89 Barbel class.

[THE BOOGER]

I find it funny the US and RN would not share their acoustic tile tech with us so we went and designed our own including the glue to stick them on they worked so well the Yanks then wanted us to share the tech with them:eek:

The glue we used was simply the same stuff used to stick cats eyes to the road interesting this one:)

The Collins Class Submarine Story: Steel, Spies and Spin - Peter Yule, Derek Woolner - Google Books (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=qZ-WlswoHFwC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=collins+class+acoustic+tiles&source=bl&ots=PgG8xfi1r7&sig=rj5V8sj3162DpGpXJp9LElSRPEg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kRg-VLL_FePCigKq9ICYCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=collins%20class%20acoustic%20tiles&f=false)

[ramblingboy42]

theres quite a few pussars on this forum .

I would love to hear from you and choose which sub you would buy and why.....

[bob10]

I'd rather buy a defender, Bob :)

[THE BOOGER]

I'd rather buy a defender, Bob :)

For the price of one sub you buy the defender factory and keep production going:angel::p

[olbod]

The Collins class were an adapted Swedish design we could go the same way this time take a good boat, learn from our mistakes do it better this time;)

(does not have to be a Swedish design the germen boats look good)

And dont forget that on the German boats they used to be able to **** on the Officers when they partied.

[olbod]

More to the point, if the collins thingy's were so good, why dont we just build more new ones ?
Or is it because with a different make it might attract new crew ?

During the war I spent twelve months live in with Me Mum on the Submarine base at Neautral Bay.
She worked in the canteen.
Our quarters were fifty yards from the dock.
I used to play onboard down below.

[p38arover]

During the war I spent twelve months live in with Me Mum on the Submarine base at Neautral Bay

Which war? :p

[olbod]

Which war?


Not the first, eh.
The sailors used to treat us two kids as mascots, especially the yanks.
The other kid there at the same time was Nicky Bignall.
His Mum Iris and my Mum were lifelong friends.
I went to Nick's 21st but havent seen him since.

One of the American sailors was carving Nick and myself a model of his sub
but we never recieved it as I learnt later that his boat was sunk.

So sad that so many were.
I dont know the figures for our side but 40.000 German sailors went to sea in subs and 30.000 never came home.

[101RRS]

Which war?

As the place did not come into existence until 1967 must have been the Vietnam war.

[olbod]

As the place did not come into existence until 1967 must have been the Vietnam war.

Might not have been Neautral Bay, my memory might be wrong.
But the base was across the harbour opposite Garden Island.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

As the place did not come into existence until 1967 must have been the Vietnam war.HMAS Platypus as a Submarine Station may not have existed before 1967 (but ships named HMAS Platypus had existed as submarine tenders since WWI), however the site of the previous North Shore Gas Company gasworks in Neutral bay which became Her Majesty's Australian Station Platypus in 1967, was reclaimed by the commonwealth in 1942 as a torpedo factory so it is very likely that US submarines actually berthed adjacent to the the factory to rearm.

The name Neutral Bay came about in colonial times because it was considered an appropriate location for foreign warships to berth.

I have no doubt that Olbod's mum worked in the base canteen of the torpedo factory (later HMAS Platypus) and that they would have had contact with US Submariners during WWII.

[olbod]

I think this is what it was at Neautral Bay and why subs were moored there.
I was only 4-5 year old so dont know the details.
HMAS Platypus apparently came later at the site.
Perhaps naval histoian types could fill in the details.

[ramblingboy42]

Thanks for that bit of research LAL . I tried to put something together like that myself.

Many people jump very quickly to discredit others without doing correct research.

[olbod]

HMAS Platypus as a Submarine Station may not have existed before 1967 (but ships named HMAS Platypus had existed as submarine tenders since WWI), however the site of the previous North Shore Gas Company gasworks in Neutral bay which became Her Majesty's Australian Station Platypus in 1967, was reclaimed by the commonwealth in 1942 as a torpedo factory so it is very likely that US submarines actually berthed adjacent to the the factory to rearm.

The name Neutral Bay came about in colonial times because it was considered an appropriate location for foreign warships to berth.

I have no doubt that Olbod's mum worked in the base canteen of the torpedo factory (later HMAS Platypus) and that they would have had contact with US Submariners during WWII.

Ha, you beet me two it while I was googling stuff trying to confirm my claim.

[disco man]

theres quite a few pussars on this forum .

I would love to hear from you and choose which sub you would buy and why.....

My choice would be the German 216,but in saying that the Japanese Soryu class has been in service since 2009 and is a tested and proven submarine. The reasons i think the 216 would be better are as follows.

#1-The 216 only needs 33 sailors to operate it,compared to 65 in the Soryu. So already you have a huge cost saving in man power and also gives the RAN a better chance of having more in service at any given time.

#2-Greater speed in the 216,reports are they will be good for 23-24kn submerged and 15-17kn on the surface. Soryu 20kn submerged and 13kn surfaced. 2-3kn may not sound like a lot of difference in underwater speed,but it does make a big difference.

#3-216 class has a better mix of weapons options,surface,underwater and land attack which would be a new capability for Australian submarines. Plus a vertical launch system and the ability to launch swimmer delivery vehicles. Plus extra berths for special forces teams.

#4-Cost factor,HDW can deliver 12 boats for the same price as 10 from Japan. But if the RAN struggle to man that many boats the extra 2 boats in the deal don't become that important. But is still a factor worth considering.

#5-The fact HDW is willing to build them in Australia. That point needs no explaining at all.

#6-I am not 100% sure how accurate this one is,but i believe it is easier to incorporate the American combat system into the 216.

I am not claiming to be a submarine expert,(no way i was serving in one of those things) but on the points outlined above the 216 would be my choice.

[bob10]

Oldbod, some history. before members start dissing other members, they should at least research the facts. Or go to the new forum. Where they belong. Bob


RAN Torpedo Factory, Neutral Bay (http://users.tpg.com.au/borclaud/ranad/about_rantf.html)

[THE BOOGER]

The Germans are offering 2 weeks of Fuel cell AIP the Japanese are offering sterling engine AIP which is better?

[PAT303]

My choice would be the German 216,but in saying that the Japanese Soryu class has been in service since 2009 and is a tested and proven submarine. The reasons i think the 216 would be better are as follows.

#1-The 216 only needs 33 sailors to operate it,compared to 65 in the Soryu. So already you have a huge cost saving in man power and also gives the RAN a better chance of having more in service at any given time.

#2-Greater speed in the 216,reports are they will be good for 23-24kn submerged and 15-17kn on the surface. Soryu 20kn submerged and 13kn surfaced. 2-3kn may not sound like a lot of difference in underwater speed,but it does make a big difference.

#3-216 class has a better mix of weapons options,surface,underwater and land attack which would be a new capability for Australian submarines. Plus a vertical launch system and the ability to launch swimmer delivery vehicles. Plus extra berths for special forces teams.

#4-Cost factor,HDW can deliver 12 boats for the same price as 10 from Japan. But if the RAN struggle to man that many boats the extra 2 boats in the deal don't become that important. But is still a factor worth considering.

#5-The fact HDW is willing to build them in Australia. That point needs no explaining at all.

#6-I am not 100% sure how accurate this one is,but i believe it is easier to incorporate the American combat system into the 216.

I am not claiming to be a submarine expert,(no way i was serving in one of those things) but on the points outlined above the 216 would be my choice.

Point six,the reason we have had so many costly failures,very very very costly failures.We should buy the U boats and leave them alone,no made for Australian conditions,other countries eg American add ons,nothing.These subs should be like a Defender,buy it,put fuel in it,drive it,end of story. Pat

[bob10]

Let's have another look at AIP, Bob


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Read an interesting article, some of which I will post here, Bob.
off the internet;


" The resurgence of the non-nuclear submarine is largely due to the development of Air Independent Propulsion [ AIP], which is inherently low in mechanical noise , the long range wire guided torpedo & sophisticated passive sonar . These when combined, result in submarines like the German AIP U-212, which are tiny by US standards - 18800 tons submerged & short legged- but become a black hole in the water that can fire ship killing weapons for miles in any direction. Built with special non-magnetic steel & silently propelled by an AIP engine with the ability to turn on a dime . They are designed to work in the shadows and strike at unsuspecting targets over a large patch of ocean.


The trade off for this lack of mechanical noise is energy poverty & poor endurance . AIP units often generate only as much power as a family sedan so that even banks of four produce 300 KW compared to the 30,000 KW of a Virginia class SSN. With that small output, the subs are limited to creeping along at about 2 or 3 knots. Slow speed and small hull sizes of European off the shelf subs are a bane for countries like Australia & Israel , which must send their subs great distances in what are essentially modified European coastal submarines.


These long transits must be done snorting on diesel, creating a period of vulnerability when units become essentially WW2 snorkel submarines until they reach their ambush positions. [ speed while snorting is about 12 knots] An SSG travelling 3000 to 4000 nautical miles [ Home base to the China sea, or the middle east] could take more than 4 weeks to travel there & return. An 8 week deployment would therefore mean a maximum of 4 weeks on station . Consequently , 2 submarines would have to be deployed in order to cover one 8 week period on station. A minimum of 4 subs would be needed to have 1 continuously on station in the South China Sea or the Middle East. Six if you add long term maintenance schedules, or frequent equipment failures. "


So it would seem AIP submarines are ideal for close to the continent defence of strategic targets, and if we were to combine AIP with a long range snorting conventional subs. the chances of detection whilst on transit to the operational area would be very high . That leaves

[disco man]

The Germans are offering 2 weeks of Fuel cell AIP the Japanese are offering sterling engine AIP which is better?

Not 100% sure mate,Bob is more switched on with that sort of thing.

[DiscoMick]

I we did buy Japanese or German subs, I wonder which one's manuals would be more incomprehensible - the German or the Japanese?

[Hoges]

I we did buy Japanese or German subs, I wonder which one's manuals would be more incomprehensible - the German or the Japanese?

That's a very practical point...the Collins class has French sonars... same issue arose. The additional cost of certified technical translation was significant and was always behind the "immediate need". It's not just the build, it's the through -life support and other logistics issues generally.

I also believe that many people in the (political/financial)decision-making chain have no real understanding of the impact of such a project on innovation and national skills development. The Collins project, despite it poor reputation was a brilliant foundation for all sorts of other skills which found a ready application in the upgrade of the F-111, the upgrade of the P3C Orion and the AEWC /Wedgetail projects to name a few. And indeed those Collins boats when they did perform were quite brilliant!

Off-the -shelf builds of this nature are like buying 4Wds ...they never quite do what is necessary and therefore there's a major mod market out there. Same with a lot of platforms... what the vendor offers can have a massive impact on how we do things simply because there's no other choice! Submarines are not like helicopters, transport planes and jet fighters.. .they are far more complex and strategically very important. I hope they ensure it's built locally bringing in "experts" as/when required. The national skills capability will be enormously enhanced as a result.

[bob10]

I we did buy Japanese or German subs, I wonder which one's manuals would be more incomprehensible - the German or the Japanese?
Well, let me tell you about the Fremantle Patrol boats. Main engines, German 2xMTU [16v538TB91] Diesel engines. Auxiliary propulsion unit, Dorman [ 12JTM] diesel engine. Gear boxes, 2x2F [ BW 1200 ] Masson [ type ESU 200] & controllable pitch propeller [ F. Bamford " AJAX"] Machinery controls [ regulator 'Europa' ] Pneumatic / electrical . Stabilisers Vosper Thorneycraft [ type mark 111] hydraulic. A veritable mix of different bits & pieces. The very best? the German engines. Each maintenance routine had its own tool kit, boxed. With comprehensive instructions, any one could follow. If a tool had to be bent in a certain way, to fit the task , it was. I'll go German, over Japanese. Any day. Bob

[disco man]

Well, let me tell you about the Fremantle Patrol boats. Main engines, German 2xMTU [16v538TB91] Diesel engines. Auxiliary propulsion unit, Dorman [ 12JTM] diesel engine. Gear boxes, 2x2F [ BW 1200 ] Masson [ type ESU 200] & controllable pitch propeller [ F. Bamford " AJAX"] Machinery controls [ regulator 'Europa' ] Pneumatic / electrical . Stabilisers Vosper Thorneycraft [ type mark 111] hydraulic. A veritable mix of different bits & pieces. The very best? the German engines. Each maintenance routine had its own tool kit, boxed. With comprehensive instructions, any one could follow. If a tool had to be bent in a certain way, to fit the task , it was. I'll go German, over Japanese. Any day. Bob

G'day Bob, Not sure if you served on HMAS Townsville, But she is berthed just up from the Townsville maritime museum at the old curtain bros wharf. She is in a seagoing state thanks to lots of very hard work by the volunteers and the fact she was still in good nick when she was payed off. At the moment stupid council red tape is preventing her from being berthed right out front of the museum which would make a wonderful display. And T.S Coral Sea cadet unit will be hoping to use her for training and day trips. Old mate at the museum is very frustrated at the council for the many hold ups,and she will need to be slipped again very soon because she is starting to get a dirty bottom. But it is really sad to see her just sitting there doing nothing and her paint starting to fade. They had a good turn of speed those little jiggers.

[bob10]

G'day Bob, Not sure if you served on HMAS Townsville, But she is berthed just up from the Townsville maritime museum at the old curtain bros wharf. She is in a seagoing state thanks to lots of very hard work by the volunteers and the fact she was still in good nick when she was payed off. At the moment stupid council red tape is preventing her from being berthed right out front of the museum which would make a wonderful display. And T.S Coral Sea cadet unit will be hoping to use her for training and day trips. Old mate at the museum is very frustrated at the council for the many hold ups,and she will need to be slipped again very soon because she is starting to get a dirty bottom. But it is really sad to see her just sitting there doing nothing and her paint starting to fade. They had a good turn of speed those little jiggers.


I preferred the old attack class. Solid, glorified fishing boats, really, but tough . You could go alongside a vessel, without much concern about damage. Fremantles' were not designed to be fishery patrol vessels, they had a good turn of speed, but not much else. Lots of technology, but in truth, that wasn't needed. I remember, sailing in Bass Strait, in the Senior Sailors sleeping quarters, in rough weather, with your feet on the deck , the deck flexed about 2 inches. The boat was bending in the middle. On the way to New Caledonia, we found a crack in the superstructure, just behind the bridge, about a foot long. In rough weather, the boat just flexed & twisted, you could feel it. No one slept well, in rough weather. Bob

[olbod]

New a bloke who was on the Melbourne, he would not sleep below decks.
Jock Tait from memory.

[disco man]

Found this article that raises a few questions. As per usual the government knows better than the senior sailors that have earned their dolphins.


Buying a new generation submarine from Japan is too high-risk,according to the nations peak submarine body. The submarine institute of Australia (SIA) does not have a favoured option for the navy's new boat other than the best and most cost-effective capability for Australia's unique requirments. According to SIA president Peter Horobin,that rules out the Japanese Soryu Class boat that appears high on the list of favoured options in the corridors of power. The Soryu Class is the only vessel in the 4000-tonne of diesel-electric powered submarines actually in the water. "Buying from Japan is a high-risk option because the Soryu doesn't meet Australia's requirements," Mr Horobin said. "It would need to be changed and then there is the sustainment question." Former submariners have also warned of the perils of striking a secret deal with Japan that could cost billions of dollars and thousands of hi-tech manufacturing jobs. Numerous Australian officials,including Defence Minister David Johnston,Defence buying chief Warren King and senior submariners,have visited Japan recently to try and obtain answers to some of the crucial and highly guarded questions about submarine design.

The other five options on the table-including the Australian built evolved "Son of Collins," the German HDW Class 216,Swedish Saab Kockums A26 variant,French Scorpene variant and the Spanish S80 variant-all exist only on paper. All of the contenders,numerous experts and the Labor Opposition are pushing the Government to conduct an "open" competition,rather than a limited tender,for the 20 billion dollar contract for at least 10 submarines that will spearhead the nations defences until the turn of the century. The other complicating factor is the future ownership of the majority taxpayer-owned ASC shipyard in Adelaide. At least one of the contenders,Swedish arms giant Saab Systems,is on record expressing an interest in bidding for the submarine builder. The submarine institute regards issues such as open competitions and shipyard ownership as second-order priorities. "We do want Australian industry to be able to play on a level playing-field," Mr Horobin said. He said each one of the options carried a degree of risk although he regarded the Son of Collins as less risky than the others. Mr Horobin said many of the design issues that plagued the Air Warfare Destroyer alliance project at ASC had already been addressed in the submarine yard at ASC.

The institute conceded that many of the aspects of the project would need to be completed and it would require a fully funded project definition study for each design to remove many of the risks,especially cost and time. Mr Horobin said Australia had a 100 years of submarine expertise and nobody else knew how Australia operated its submarines apart from Australian submariners. "We have paid an awful lot to get the experience we have got and it would be a pity to ignore that and waste money and time," he said. Many experts believe that it is time for the Government to put politics to one side and consider the submarine decision in the context of the next 100 years of Australian submarines. Australian astronaut Andy Thomas said he found it distasteful to be told that buying submarines in Japan was in Australia's national interest,when in his view it was not. "It's a no-brainer issue; what is in Australia's best interests? Build them locally,maintain them locally," Thomas said. Shipbuilding expert Dr John White believes Australia has the capacity to build and maintain the new boats at a competitive price. "Overseas designs can be built here with equivalent quality and cost-effectiveness. Australia can achieve world-class results," Dr White said.

Industry Minister Ian Macfarlane said this week there would be many extra jobs in South Australia,regardless of where the submarine originated. "If you've got almost twice as many subs,you've got twice as many jobs," he said. By the middle of the century Australia will have a population of about 45 million people and in a 100 years,the navy will have up to 30 submarines to protect the island continent's national interests. "Decisions made now will set the framework for the next 100 years," Mr Horobin said. "We do know our stuff."

[101RRS]

The problem that Australia has is that we require "blue water" submarines where most of the diesel electric submarines are "brown water" submarines primarily designed for coastal inshore operations.

The main countries that have build or are currently building "blue water" conventional submarines are the Japanese, the Brits and Russia. This problem also existed when the Collins was first being considered - note it is 100 feet longer and almost 3 times as heavy as the Swedish submarine it is based on. Also initially one of the Collins Class was to be fitted with AIP as a trial but it never proceeded as it bacame clear that while OK in a brown water submarine with limited range it was not suitable for a long range submarine.

My view is that we need to get the best submarine that suits our needs and this must be the first criteria - if this can be built in Australia that is great but must not be the primary criteria.

No matter what design is selected I can guarantee that it will have to be heavily modified - if it is one of the small European brown water submarines - like the Collins it will have to be made bigger to suit our needs. Systems will need to be combatable with our other systems which are primarily US based, so systems will be either US or Nato combatible.

At this stage - who will have the design to best meet our requirements - no idea afterall the Collins was not the front runner initially.

One thing is sure though, the Navy will not accept compromised capability just to have the hull built here - fitout and completion and through life maintenance will be done here.

I suspect the project will go something like the Canberra LHD - hull build overseas, fitout and completion done here.

My thoughts

Garry

[THE BOOGER]

Having read the last few posts and some more online Son of Collins looks like a pretty good option:)

[disco man]

Found this article,very interesting read. Still not convinced its the best option.

Arthur Herman: Japanese subs still the best deal for Australia- Nikkei Asian Review (http://asia.nikkei.com/magazine/20141127-Abenomics-on-the-ballot/Viewpoints/Arthur-Herman-Japanese-subs-still-the-best-deal-for-Australia)

[bob10]

New a bloke who was on the Melbourne, he would not sleep below decks.
Jock Tait from memory.


That brings back a memory. We had a bloke on the Perth, a " birdie" [airman branch], who was on Melbourne during the Evans incident, his job was looking after the life rafts & safety gear. During a refuelling one day at sea, some one actuated the collision alarm, accidently. I was about to descend the ladder to the messdecks Fwd., when this bloke came flying up the ladder, I reckon he didn't touch the steps, he was out in a flash. It took some time to calm the poor fellow down. Luckily by the time I got to my collision station, it was called a false alarm. He wasn't going down with the ship. Bob

[DiscoMick]

I think we should build them here. There's no reason we can't do it, and we have already given up too many industries because of sheer short-sighted cost-cutting - its time to step up and do things ourselves.

[bob10]

I think we should build them here. There's no reason we can't do it, and we have already given up too many industries because of sheer short-sighted cost-cutting - its time to step up and do things ourselves.


We can do it, but I'm for the partnership model, in partnership with which ever country we buy them from, only by building our expertise in incremental steps, can we gain the experience, to become independent. The German boat, with US Navy technology, would be my choice. Too much of a political risk in going with Japan. Who knows what the future holds in the Asian area of operations, Bob