Did You know this 'Can' happen to a diesel (Death by oil)

[uninformed]

well I think I have definitely taken the title early for this one. After all the work fixing the turbo etc it was fine. I then decided to do an oil and filter change.......:(

over filled it. (yes I checked the dip stick, yes it was high but I didnt think it that high and that it would settle after warm up and run as it has somewhat before) I did 3 short (3-10km trips) and it was fine (running fine) then took it for its first proper run after fixing the turbo. 17km later, @ 80km/hr, in 4th gear, backing of the throttle due to decending over a rise...........then the engine starts to rev faster and faster by itself......yep it was running on the oil :eek: . No shoulder to pull over to, car behind me. De-clutched and popped into N, whilst tuning the key off and fumbling for the turbo timer stop button. AND keep an eye on the road and car behind.....massive plume of white/grey smoke. The engine stopped the same time I hit the stop button on the t/timer..but I cant be sure if I stopped it or it died.

As soon as I pulled over and the car had passed me (im still 1/2 in the lane) I opened the bonnet to check. No leaks, No holes, Nothing looking bad (yeah right) just a tiny bit of smoke coming from the turbo exhaust flange....Im guessing that got rather hot. 3-5mins after shut down it, I turned on the ignition to read the gauges. 110c on the engine temp. Prior to death by oil it was fine, egt's around 250 post turbo and 89c on the coolant temp. I watch these like a hawk

I had it towed home. I removed the intercooler and all its hoses and cleaned them out. I got about half a cup of oil out of the bottom hose and about half a cup out of the intercooler. The intake hose from air filter to turbo had some in it but only a table spoon or so. The engine breather line was very oily and the bottom of the airfilter has oil on it.

All hoses cleaned well and the intercooler. Coolant level is spot on (none lost) oil level is now at the max indicator when cold. still no leaks. Engine will turn by hand (ring spanner with hand at about 200mm leverage) but it wont crank on the starter??? it will the tiniest bit than the starter just "clicks" really fast....

any ideas on what my next move should be.....besides handing in my licence and getting a bus pass

Edit: forgot to add, engine is a 2.8tgv, very similar to a 300tdi

[Catmatt]

Might be time to pull the injectors and turn it over without compression. You could have an oil hydraulic lock- up in 1 or more cylinders.
Failing that (and I don't wish this upon you) you could have a bent rod

[isuzurover]

Pull the glow plugs, make sure the battery is fully charged, then try and get it to turn over.

If you can turn it over by hand, sure it isn't a flat battery???

[rovercare]

How overfull?

Pull glow plugs and disable injector pump and crank, if you can turn with a spanner it's a starter/batt prob

[uninformed]

about to pull the glow plugs. I have 2 batteries, that i believe ok. The starter is "clicking" very rapidly.

[isuzurover]

about to pull the glow plugs. I have 2 batteries, that i believe ok. The starter is "clicking" very rapidly.

Do you have a bellhousing drain plug fitted? Make sure that the rear main seal hasn't failed, and filled up the bellhousing with oil, causing issues for the starter.

[blitz]

not that this helps but I can remember an aboriginal worker at Nutwood Downs in the NT being asked to change the oil in the gen set which he did - then filled it up to the top of the rocker cover (just like fueling up) destroyed the engine. I can still hear the manager screaming at the poor worker, god, us and the universe in general like it was yesterday and that was about 32 years ago.

[Dougal]

Do the glow-plugs extend to the piston bowls on those? If so any oil in them could potentially be sucked out.
But if it turns over by hand, it's likely good to start and run.

You'd be surprised how common this is.

[uninformed]

Over filled by 2 litres plus what ever burnt off. I used my usual drum pump, 100ml per pump. Some where I stuffed up! Just trying to find and fish out my 1/4 drive socket I dropped. Good god....

[Jojo]

The engine can be turned over by hand. The starter motor clicks only, that's where the problem is, apparently. Insufficient voltage or failure of the starter.
Cheers

[uninformed]

no drain/wading plugs fitted. Would there be anything due to the masive engine reving that would cause problem for the battery/starter.

gauges are very responsive as are warning lights etc when ignition is turned on.

I think Battery is fine. When I tried to turn it over it turned a tiny bit then clicked. I turned it off, got back under and turned the crank by wrench to make sure it could turn and yes it can. I am only turning the crank clockwise from viewed standing at the front of the car looking towards the rear. same result each time. The amount it turns before clicking is minimal.

still socket hunting......

[isuzurover]

Have you turned it one complete revolution with the spanner?

[DeanoH]

............................ Would there be anything due to the masive engine reving that would cause problem for the battery/starter.......

At the risk of making a totally uninformed statement I would say not.

In defining 'massive engine revving', how big is massive ?, if something broke at these revs I would expect to hear loud expensive graunching noises. If this isn't the case your engine could be OK.




gauges are very responsive as are warning lights etc when ignition is turned on.

I think Battery is fine. When I tried to turn it over it turned a tiny bit then clicked. I turned it off, got back under and turned the crank by wrench to make sure it could turn and yes it can. I am only turning the crank clockwise from viewed standing at the front of the car looking towards the rear. same result each time. The amount it turns before clicking is minimal.

still socket hunting......

Sounds like a flat battery to me. Your dash lights and gauges will show up OK with a flat battery as the starter needs MUCH more power to operate than the gauges.
Did you have your hazard lights on for a period of time following engine armageddon ? and is this the cause of a flat battery.

If you're really lucky all you need is an engine/manifold/hose/MAF cleanout a battery re-charge and away you go, poorer but wiser.

Deano:)

[uninformed]

Hazards were on for 3hrs. I would have thought with dual batteries this not to bad. But definit food for thought.

No big bangs, but very high hard revs when I clutched and neutral gear. I new that would happen, but in the situation. I didn't have much choice. It was safety first. Big plume of smoke, grey white.

I will try and do 1 complete revolution with spanner. I think I already have but will check.

Socket still MIA

[uninformed]

Confirm over 1 full revolution of crank by hand/wrench. Can feel it get harder at compression.

[slug_burner]

Sounds like battery or starter failure.

If it was running on its own oil - you killing the key/ignition and turbo timer would not have stopped it, not unless you have something more clever than just a fuel solenoid. Both the key and turbo timer will power the fuel solenoid and when running on oil it does not matter what you do with the diesel supply.

Running on your own oil usually ends in a loud noise somewhere.

[Blknight.aus]

why didnt you just brake it to a halt?

putting it in neutral is about the worst thing you could have done in that situation as it let the engine free rev.

your turbo bearings probably seals will not be happy at you, I would be doing your next start (IF it will start) without the exhaut pipe or the turbo to intercooler hose fitted to check the output of the turbo.

If the rocker cover gasket has developed a leak (or does so in the near future) Id also be suspect of the valve stem seals

Given that you think it may have shut down when you killed it with the timer I would also check the fueling lever for freedom of movement, You may just be very lucky and have achieved the following

a stuck throttle that has allowed the engine to overboost from an incorrectly adjusted turbo, This will have caused excessive blowby forcing the oil up past the breathers filter into the air intake. The intercooler has not completely filled and the nature if its design has trapped most of the oil and allowed just enough oil past to contaminate the combustion process but not sustain it, removing the diesel supply has stopped combustion and allowed the engine to spool down.

as a cautionary Id be scoping the timing belt, the block/timing belt crank seal and the rear output seal for leaks and dropping the sump to check the bottom end out by eye and to find if it produced any metal. At the same time I'd also scope the bores through the injector or glow plug holes. Dissect the oil filter thats on it to inspect that.

The over heat of your cooling system is normal from a hot shutdown (which it would have been) as the latent heat in the block was applied to the now stationary coolant with no air cooling coming through the radiator. IF it was still holding pressure, there was no signs of water in the exhaust and subsequent cranking of the engine with the injectors and plugs in did not cause pressurization of the cooling system I would suspect that you have not done the head gasket at this point. The possibility of cracks around the valve seats, injector and glow plug ports would still exist but in reality you would not find them without a pull down or untill they let go at some in-determined time in the future.



I'd also probably fit up a turbo timer thats got an on/off switch, something like this one.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/43233d1328414857-300tdi-turbo-temperature-imag0382.jpg
Admit it, Even you knew that was coming. (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1622092-post18.html)

[spudboy]

I just saw this posted on another thread a few minutes ago. This one got right out of hand:

Runaway Diesel Defender 200 TDI - YouTube

[spudboy]

.... I'd also probably fit up a turbo timer thats got an on/off switch, something like this one.

(http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1622092-post18.html)

I thought that Turbo Timers were no longer legal? Maybe just in Sth Australia?

[Blknight.aus]

havent been for quite some time, but if it was fitted before they were legislated out then you may keep it.

[Homestar]

I thought that Turbo Timers were no longer legal? Maybe just in Sth Australia?
What's the reasoning behind that?

[bee utey]

What's the reasoning behind that?
It's about not being allowed to be more than a certain number of metres from your vehicle if the engine is still running. Australian road rule of some sort.

[Bushie]

I'm fairly out of my depth here, but -



vehicle has been off the road for a while getting turbo rebuilt etc
does a few short (3-10km) trips
4th trip at 17km - problem occurs
try to turn over engine starter rapidly clicks
Can be turned over by hand

My guess like others is a flat battery is problem number one, short runs with not enough time to recharge and then leaving ~ 75w of lights going for 3 hours = flat battery.


As for what else may have occurred internally, well that's out of my league - but good luck.






Martyn

[uninformed]

battery was flat. Got it to turn over once or twice with some sub par jumper leads and the neighbours truck. Battery is now on charge, thanks to the neighbour. I dont own either jump leads, charger or a multi meter.....

I wont get a good go at starting it till the morning.

I can understand why Dave said "incorrect adjusted turbo" as he knew I had just taken mine off to fix the actuator to vane control rod/pin/plate. With what I have to go by, it was pretty close to stock setting(as close to I could get it with the info at hand) The car drove well and "as normal" with this setting.

but why would the throttle be stuck?

It is however 100% that there was a minimum of 2 litres more oil in the sump than MAX on the dip stick.

as for why didnt I brake it stop......well lets see, why didnt I fill it correctly? Why didnt I drain some oil when the dip stick was indicating it higher than Max? Why did I choose to do an oil change instead of doing the Stand Up Paddle ocean race I was going to do? Why did I date that crazy scotish girl with fake boobs???.....well i guess that can only be answered by those with more intellgence than me as im just the stupid guy right......

btw, would braking to stall it out really have stopped it.....I dont think that will ever be known and Im not going to recreate it to find out.

The turbo time will be removed, it is not needed.

[Blknight.aus]

If you had it in 5th (even 4th) and the clutch was in good nick and the brakes were good yep you could have braked it to a stop

I think you mean you dont want to recreate it to find out. A runaway diesel is something you need to know how to deal with and anything goes dropping it into a tall gear and jamming the brakes, firing an extinguisher down the inlet, hosing the air intake or just running away.

By the time you get to dealing with a runaway you're no longer really trying to save the engine, you're trying to limit the collateral damage.

Have you checked the condition of the lift pump? you may find that part of your original lack of power problem is a leaking lift pump thats gone from aerating the fuel to dumping it in the sump, the fuel pump on a landy shifts in the vicinity of 1.5l/min@7psi@1000Rpm if you were leaking even 1/4 of that into the sump it would only take it 8 minutes at just over idle to cause enough dilution that the oil begins aerating on its way out of the big ends and main journals not to mention the additional fuming it would receive from trying to cool the under side of the pistons get it juuuust right and you can wind up with an in crank case fire which is nothing much in a small turbo diesel but its not doing any of the metals inside the block any favors. After about another 8 or some minutes in the same conditions the balance weights on the crank and the bottom of the big ends will begin splashing into the surface of the "oil" from here disaster is pretty much inevitable.


(I have always wanted to see a cathedral diesel do a runaway)

Ive got plenty of schedule shuffling going on and ATM am starting to stuff things into the W/D evening, if you want I can clear you a spot, drop me an accurate location and if something is on near you I can come out and lob the MK II's around if you need it.

[mick88]

It's about not being allowed to be more than a certain number of metres from your vehicle if the engine is still running. Australian road rule of some sort.


Obviously "Idle Holds" would be as well then!


Cheers, Mick

[Blknight.aus]

What's the reasoning behind that?

partially because of the number of incidents caused by people who were not aware of them dumping the clutch with the engine running and the vehicle in gear, partially because some installations bypassed engine safety gear so the inertia cut outs didnt.

[rick130]

I don't know if Serg could've braked/stalled it at 80km/h/full noise ?

I know I couldn't with a throttle jam on a race car once.

Big stab of the middle pedal did eff all, but I was at 6500RPM in top gear at the time.

[Blknight.aus]

not quite the same amount of power available from the rover diesel though and brakes rated to pull up nearly 7t from highway speeds... at the bare minimum it would have bought him time.

[Catmatt]

I don't know if Serg could've braked/stalled it at 80km/h/full noise ?

I know I couldn't with a throttle jam on a race car once.

Big stab of the middle pedal did eff all, but I was at 6500RPM in top gear at the time.

Stop it, Stop it, Stop all this pontification.......the poor guy was innocently driving down the road and had a potential total engine run-away but.........it seems survived a catastrophic disaster.......

Yes he could have -
a) thrown in it neutral and risked a total uncontrolled over-speed (But as he said, he was in solid traffic and more looking out for the other road users {Well Done mate!!}

b) just happened to have a powder fire extingusher at hand and casually open the bonnet and fire it at the EXACT position while dodging peak hour traffic
c) or just happened to have the time to ignore all of his problems and decide to check his lift pump for leaks that might be aerating his fuel (Sic)

d) or wondering how many metres he should stand away from his vehicle when it revs itself to destruction

My God guys.....focus on the problem at hand and don't speculate on this potentially serious $$$$ problem

[Blknight.aus]

decide to check his lift pump for leaks that might be aerating his fuel

nice misuse of a quote


d) or wondering how many metres he should stand away from his vehicle when it revs itself to destruction

as many as he could, preferably on the other side of a concrete barrier


My God guys.....focus on the problem at hand and don't speculate on this potentially serious $$$$ problem
(ignoring that untill its actually in the hands of someone who can diagnose it all we can do is speculate)
That may be

decide to check his lift pump for leaks that might be aerating his fuel


That, as mentioned



Have you checked the condition of the lift pump? you may find that part of your original lack of power problem is a leaking lift pump thats gone from aerating the fuel to dumping it in the sump, the fuel pump on a landy shifts in the vicinity of 1.5l/min@7psi@1000Rpm if you were leaking even 1/4 of that into the sump it would only take it 8 minutes at just over idle to cause enough dilution that the oil begins aerating on its way out of the big ends and main journals not to mention the additional fuming it would receive from trying to cool the under side of the pistons get it juuuust right and you can wind up with an in crank case fire which is nothing much in a small turbo diesel but its not doing any of the metals inside the block any favors. After about another 8 or some minutes in the same conditions the balance weights on the crank and the bottom of the big ends will begin splashing into the surface of the "oil" from here disaster is pretty much inevitable.



in that post as part of what to check for a potential cause for the unusually high oil, how quickly it can cause a run away and the starters of why it causes a runaway...

[rick130]

I don't know if Serg could've braked/stalled it at 80km/h/full noise ?

I know I couldn't with a throttle jam on a race car once.

Big stab of the middle pedal did eff all, but I was at 6500RPM in top gear at the time.


Stop it, Stop it, Stop all this pontification.......the poor guy was innocently driving down the road and had a potential total engine run-away but.........it seems survived a catastrophic disaster.......

Yes he could have -
a) thrown in it neutral and risked a total uncontrolled over-speed (But as he said, he was in solid traffic and more looking out for the other road users {Well Done mate!!}

b) just happened to have a powder fire extingusher at hand and casually open the bonnet and fire it at the EXACT position while dodging peak hour traffic
c) or just happened to have the time to ignore all of his problems and decide to check his lift pump for leaks that might be aerating his fuel (Sic)

d) or wondering how many metres he should stand away from his vehicle when it revs itself to destruction

My God guys.....focus on the problem at hand and don't speculate on this potentially serious $$$$ problem

:confused:

Was that little outburst really directed at me ?

I realise you'd be totally unaware of the phone calls that have gone back and forth to try and sort this issue rather than play it out in the forum. ;)

[uninformed]

Stop it, Stop it, Stop all this pontification.......the poor guy was innocently driving down the road and had a potential total engine run-away but.........it seems survived a catastrophic disaster.......

Yes he could have -
a) thrown in it neutral and risked a total uncontrolled over-speed (But as he said, he was in solid traffic and more looking out for the other road users {Well Done mate!!}

b) just happened to have a powder fire extingusher at hand and casually open the bonnet and fire it at the EXACT position while dodging peak hour traffic
c) or just happened to have the time to ignore all of his problems and decide to check his lift pump for leaks that might be aerating his fuel (Sic)

d) or wondering how many metres he should stand away from his vehicle when it revs itself to destruction

My God guys.....focus on the problem at hand and don't speculate on this potentially serious $$$$ problem

Hey Matt, its ok mate. I knew there would always be a case of someone knowing better with hindesite. I did what I did, and thats all I could do. Rick and Ben have been very helpful outside of here.

It wasnt a super busy road (well not till later that night) but there was one car close behind me, after coming down the hill and having the incident unfold, I was now going up a rise/blind hill (maybe engine angle changed something?) it is a single lane each way, 80km/h whindy road. Where I was there wasnt a shoulder, just a 1 foot deep gully and then a 70 degree bank rising out of the gully. I do have a fire extingisher in my truck. but my bonnet latch handle is broken and requires pliers so that slows things down.....It the engine was stopped before the truck as I wasnt going to jamb on the brakes with the worlds biggest smoke screen between me and the car behind.

Im pretty certain it was my error of too much oil and not something leaking into the crankcase. I drained the oil well and refilled.I pre filled the oil filter. It was high on the dipstick straight away. I did not check the old oil height that morning, but had in the last week and it was spot on full as it normaly is.

I would like to thank the 2 people that stopped and asked if ok, out of the 70 or so that drove past in the 4 hrs I was stuck on the side of the road and waiting for a tow truck. Thanks must also go to the bus that drove past in excess of the speed limit and nearly hit my side mirror (no one coming the other way, so room for a bit of move over) and I cant forget to thank the people that were behind me during the incident, that after slowly driving through the plume of smoke, just gave me a disgusted look and kept going..... I did get to see lots of fast and furious cars with neon lights and big turbos go wisking through the night.

I am a bit concerned for my socket:

Dear Seven,
it has been over 17hrs since we last saw each other. Im very worried about you. I dont know why you had to leave like that. Things seemed to be good between us. I looked long and hard, and even called in the experts help. They sent in magnet, mirror and LED to no avail. Its almost as if you dont want to be found. I really do hope you are ok. Your family all miss you, especially your two closest brothers Six and Eight. In true family support your cousin Nine/ThirtyTwo has come in to help. In no way is he a replacement for you. He wants you back as much as anyone. Im more than happy to talk about any issues you may be dealing with. Please come home safe and sound.......:(


1 battery is fully charged, the other is almost done.....

[PAT303]

Serge,you got off the road,you didn't hit anybody or anything and your safe,good job. Pat

[isuzurover]

Stop it, Stop it, Stop all this pontification.......the poor guy was innocently driving down the road and had a potential total engine run-away but.........it seems survived a catastrophic disaster.......

Yes he could have -
a) thrown in it neutral and risked a total uncontrolled over-speed (But as he said, he was in solid traffic and more looking out for the other road users {Well Done mate!!}

b) just happened to have a powder fire extingusher at hand and casually open the bonnet and fire it at the EXACT position while dodging peak hour traffic
c) or just happened to have the time to ignore all of his problems and decide to check his lift pump for leaks that might be aerating his fuel (Sic)

d) or wondering how many metres he should stand away from his vehicle when it revs itself to destruction

My God guys.....focus on the problem at hand and don't speculate on this potentially serious $$$$ problem

I think you picked the wrong post(er) to quote. But in general I agree with the sentiment.

[uninformed]

I just tried starting it. It turns over but wont start. I held the key for what i would call/counted 10 compressions (by ear). I did this 3 times. The 3rd time I depressed the throttle 3 times during.

No smoke or anything out the exhaust. No weird noises during turning over. No leaks developed after turning over (that I can see)

I just checked the dipstick. Now I may be wrong but it appears the level has dropped by about 3-4mm on the stick compared to when I last checked it yesterday. I just checked it after turning over :confused: The truck hasnt been moved since sunday morning. It is on level ground

[uninformed]

still no sign of Seven :(

[isuzurover]

I just tried starting it. It turns over but wont start. I held the key for what i would call/counted 10 compressions (by ear). I did this 3 times. The 3rd time I depressed the throttle 3 times during.

No smoke or anything out the exhaust. No weird noises during turning over. No leaks developed after turning over (that I can see)

I just checked the dipstick. Now I may be wrong but it appears the level has dropped by about 3-4mm on the stick compared to when I last checked it yesterday. I just checked it after turning over :confused: The truck hasnt been moved since sunday morning. It is on level ground

Hold your foot flat down on the accelerator and crank it over until it starts (hopefully) - or at least until the oil light goes out.

If you can, do the above with the bonnet removed and the filler cap also off, to see if it is blowing out the filler.

[uninformed]

I just did what Ben suggested: turned over with full throtle and oil filler cap removed. It was about 40 "compressions", oil light went out, nothing blowing out the filler. No sign of it firing. The battery started to fade so I have put on charge again

[Dougal]

I just checked the dipstick. Now I may be wrong but it appears the level has dropped by about 3-4mm on the stick compared to when I last checked it yesterday. I just checked it after turning over :confused: The truck hasnt been moved since sunday morning. It is on level ground

Don't worry about that, that's the oil being pumped around your engine like it should be. It'll all come back when left to sit.

Did you disturb any injection pump wiring?

I had a 10mm socket go AWOL during an engine rebuild about 10 years back. Never found it and I was even paranoid enough to check the sump later on.

[B92 8NW]

Maybe the head gasket is leaking. Only need to look at a Tdi head gasket sideways and they blow. Could've gotten hot. Check the coolant is at the right level. Then crank away with the cap off the expansion tank.

[uninformed]

what should I be looking for when cranking with the coolant cap off?

I will check the one pair of wires that go into injection pump.

[B92 8NW]

what should I be looking for when cranking with the coolant cap off?

I will check the one pair of wires that go into injection pump.

A fountain:wasntme:.

Good idea on the wires too, not sure which fuse they go back to on a Defender though.

[isuzurover]

OK - as mentioned, do the coolant thing and check for it blowing out there.

However (hopefully) it will be fuel. If you undo the line on #1 injector then fuel should spurt out while cranking if the engine is getting fuel.

[uninformed]

umm :angel: which injector is #1?

[uninformed]

I just removed the bleed bolt from the top of the fuel filter housing, then pumped the lift pump. Nothing. I then turned the crank 1/8 of a revolution by hand and tried again (to rotate cam) I did this 4 times, pumping the lever say 100 times each go. No fuel coming anywhere near the bleed bolt hole :confused:

[rick130]

umm :angel: which injector is #1?

The first one. :p

Ok, the front one. ;)

Were you able to get fuel up to the filter at all ?

[rick130]

I just removed the bleed bolt from the top of the fuel filter housing, then pumped the lift pump. Nothing. I then turned the crank 1/8 of a revolution by hand and tried again (to rotate cam) I did this 4 times, pumping the lever say 100 times each go. No fuel coming anywhere near the bleed bolt hole :confused:

Maybe it's done the lift pump diaphragm and filled the sump with fuel as Dave suggested as a possibility earlier ?

Do you have a spare ?

[uninformed]

spare pump or diaphragm? I have neither

[rick130]

I meant pump.

[isuzurover]

Have you checked the pump wires?

[uninformed]

I just re read Dave's post about the pump. The loss of power 2 fridays ago was very sudden, in conjucntion with an increase in turbo boost noise. The car was driven on 3 short runs of 2-3km and then to Nerang which would be 10km min. It was drivin after that from Nerang to labrador on the hwy at upto 90km/hr and then home, that would have been another 20km trip easy. Then the turbo was fixed and the loss of power porblem solved. it had a small 3km run, then from home to southport 7km for the oil change. It was drivin from there to home again (7km) then another 5 km trip and then out to death by oil Rd. From what I can gather in Daves post, its should have happend earlier? and rememeber the oil change is in there. The old oil level was fine and I think I checked it when doing the turbo fix, The new oil level was high BEFORE turning the engine over at all.

[uninformed]

Have you checked the pump wires?

The Injector pump, yes they seem fine and were not loose etc. The lift pump is manual and no wires

[uninformed]

btw, thanks for the help so far guys. Dont be affraid to point out the obvious as some of this stuff is new ground for me.

but yes I was aware of the stop button on the front of my turbo time....unfortunately it didnt have an on/off or function to by pass it....

[Tank]

Just wondering, with all this trying to start the engine, have you drained the oil and refilled to the correct level, or at least is the oil at the correct level, Regards Frank.

[isuzurover]

The Injector pump, yes they seem fine and were not loose etc. The lift pump is manual and no wires

Just realised you were checking fuel before the IP...

Your options then are either to pull the pump, or pressurise the fuel tank to bleed and hope the IP can suck up the fuel from then on (likely).

[uninformed]

Just wondering, with all this trying to start the engine, have you drained the oil and refilled to the correct level, or at least is the oil at the correct level, Regards Frank.

thanks Frank, yes the oil was the first thing drained (on the side of the road) before I came to my senses and had it towed....I have the 1.8lts still in a bucket, I spilt 100-200ml on the road :mad: (I hate that for enviro reasons my bad) the oil and filter is only 30km old castrol rx super. So with the 2 litres I removed and what ever burnt off, there is now the correct amount (as checked cold before turning the engine over yesterday/today)

edit: even with cleaning all the intercooler and intake /breather hoses I still have my "ball in rag" at hand to choke engine out(via snorkel) if it does start and run away again

[rick130]

Just realised you were checking fuel before the IP...

Your options then are either to pull the pump, or pressurise the fuel tank to bleed and hope the IP can suck up the fuel from then on (likely).

Yep, good idea.
You need a ball of rag and your compressed air nozzle in the fuel filler and lightly pressurise the tank. (under 10psi)

It should push the fuel through the lift pump and into the filter and IP.
I'd leave the bleed cracked on the filter head to make sure it comes through.

Then you can crank the ignition with the injector unions cracked to make sure you have fuel there, then when you do see fuel, re-tighten and try the engine for real.

[uninformed]

will give the above a go: Finally got the fuel line to pressurize and make diesel come out the bleed bolt hole on the fuel filter by using Rick's method (see above post). Tried to start it after that (no air pressure just normal), no go. Now going to crack the injectors and see if turning it over will get fuel to them....

[PAT303]

Diesels only need fuel and air to start,even with a blown headgasket,hole in cylinder etc etc the thing should still fire.You either aren't getting fuel into the cylinders,my guess or air.Does the valve gear work when your turning it over?. Pat

[isuzurover]

will give this a go: Finally got the fuel line to pressurize and make diesel come out the bleed bolt hole on the fuel filter. Tried to start it after that, no go. Now going to crack the injectors and see if turning it over will get fuel to them....

If you have fuel to the IP, slacken the injector lines off quite a lot and crank it until you have fuel coming out all 4 - with no bubbles.

[Blknight.aus]

DO NOT try to prime your engine VIA the compressed air method... If you do and what I suspect has happened has happened all you will do is fill your sump with diesel (probably again)

I strongly suspect that you did not overfill your engine as much as you think you did and you have had diesel dilution of your engine oil.

Disconnect the supply line to the lift pump then pressurise the fuel tank (you can do this by putting air onto the final return line to the fuel tank Watch for fuel or air coming from the supply line to the pump if you get that then you initial fuel system is ok

Remove the delivery line from the lift pump and put your finger on the delivery outlet, operate the hand prime lever if you dont feel pressure on your finger then the pump's diaphragm is knackered.

Do the same for the intake side of the pump if you dont feel suction then the pumps diaphragm is knackered.

IF you feel no pressure on the outlet but do feel suction on the inlet then there will be a tiny split in the diaphragm near the plunger that is getting covered up at partial stroke letting some of the fuel into the sump and giving the rest to the IP.

Heres why it might have contributed to your symptoms. (And I'll try to keep this plain english)

Background 101...... turbo diesel fuel consumption......

A diesel engines fuel consumption is fairly linear in terms of RPM and load at any given work load if you increase the RPMS then the fuel consumption goes up at a steady rate. With a turbo diesel engine the fuel goes up at a more or less exponential rate due to the effect of the turbo, by utilising otherwise wasted energy more air is crammed into the engine allowing more fuel to be used. An over simplified version of whats happening but it will do.

Both engines at idle will use naff all fuel so a semi functional lift pump will supply abundant fuel for the no load condition at pretty much all RPMS. When you start to load up and ask for more power the ability of a barely functioning lift pump will not supply the IP with enough fuel so as the engines load increases the fuel supply deminishes, the boost drops off and the engine will settle to whatever RPMS it can deliver onto the applied load with the fuel available to the lift pump.

Inside the IP is a gallery that provides 3 functions
1. It cools the internal components of the IP
2. It lubricates the internal componets of the IP
3. It provides an initial reserve of fuel for consumption
(how many of the IP parts it cools and lubricats varies between IP type and design)

so long as you're putting fuel in faster than the IP wants to deliver it to the injectors the engine will run and deliver full power. If you only need a short application of maximum power the reserve (if full) might give you 10-20 seconds of full power before the IP begins to draw air instead of diesel and inject that. Air in the injector lines in small quantities lowers the Injection pressure and quantity and once that starts to happen the power output of the engine begins to drop off.

Once the engine power begins to drop off the turbo will start to wind down lowering boost pressure, At this point the Boost compensator begins to push back the fuel control and the fuel supply will begin to catch up to demand. As more fuel becomes available the power will come up and the whole cycle begins again. On a well setup engine (and the TDI/TGV's are in this respect) the system will quickly obtain an equilibrium and so long as you dont increase the load or back off on the applied throttle position your engine will maintain a steady but lowered output.

If you back off the throttle the lift pumps ability to supply the IP with fuel exceeds the IP's demand for it, the gallery in the IP refills and maximum power becomes available.

Hope that helps...

to save me from having to do it heres someone elses how to.. (http://ollr.createaforum.com/technical-archive/fuel-lift-pump-rebuild-thanks-jackual-nz/)

In about 3 weeks time I have to do the lift pump on ratel10mm's series, the basics are the same.

[wrinklearthur]

still no sign of Seven :(

Distress wont get you any where in life, mister socket number seven.

So please mister socket number seven, come home, your owner is missing you and your mates in the tin are feeling so bad about their jealousy when you were chosen to do the job that only you could do.
.

[isuzurover]

DO NOT try to prime your engine VIA the compressed air method... If you do and what I suspect has happened has happened all you will do is fill your sump with diesel (probably again)

I strongly suspect that you did not overfill your engine as much as you think you did and you have had diesel dilution of your engine oil.

...

Did you read all the posts - Serg has managed to prime it using the hand primer by the sound of it. Would be hard to do that if the diaphragm was split.

How much oil does the engine hold??? An extra ~2L would be 33-50% fuel dilution, and easy for Serg to spot by comparing viscosity.

Serg - just use a paint stirrer or similar to check for oil dilution. Measure (approximately) how quickly the oil runs off the stirrer, and the size of the remaining drop on the end (for your unused oil and the drained oil).

[uninformed]

well I have already cracked the injectors and turned the engine over on key. It pumped fuel out of them in a pulsating manner. I then did them all back up and tried to start it...it fire'd and ran a very short bit, rough with some very light coloured smoke. I was very wary of it running away so shut it off quick (not that it did run away or start to rev) I then cranked it again, it wants to fire and small puffs of light coloured smoke come out, but it wont run. I think its not getting fuel. I only used the air pressure method to get fuel up to the filter and thats it. Testing the fuel at the injectors was by cranking only, as with starting it.

So it seems the lift pump is buggered as it wont bring fuel up to the filter by hand/lever.

Dave Im still not sure about it leaking diesel into the crankcase. Like I said before, after the power loss happend, there was plenty of running around and more load put on it than that run out to death by oil Rd. I had checked the oil level leading up to the oil change, around the time I did the turbo, after my mech had it, and it was normal ie max level on dip stick. I drove it to my mates shop to put on hoist. It sat for 2 hrs before I could get on. I drove it on, drained oil, removed filter and refilled. BEFORE I started it I checked the dip stick and the oil level was high. I wish it wasnt me but it was. The loss of power was fixed with the turbo and that was a case of it definitely being broken and repaired.

seven is still missing.....

[uninformed]

Did you read all the posts - Serg has managed to prime it using the hand primer by the sound of it. Would be hard to do that if the diaphragm was split.

How much oil does the engine hold??? An extra ~2L would be 33-50% fuel dilution, and easy for Serg to spot by comparing viscosity.

Serg - just use a paint stirrer or similar to check for oil dilution. Measure (approximately) how quickly the oil runs off the stirrer, and the size of the remaining drop on the end (for your unused oil and the drained oil).

sorry if there was confusion, I could NOT get it to prime with the hand primer on the lift pump. I had to get fuel up to the filter by compressed air in the tank re Rick's method. Yes it seems the lift pump is NOW buggered but if you read my post above I dont think it leaking through the CC. BTW since I drained the 2 litres of oil out of the sump on Sat arvo on the side of the road, It has not changed. It is at MAX on dip stick when cold and drops a little when cranking, but comes back to max if standing....surely If the lift pump was leaking in it would have added more to the crank case?

the engine at max is supposed to be 7 litres...so an extra 2 is 35% plus factor in what burnt off during event......

[uninformed]

I just did a quick crude test using the dip stick and stop watch. From time of removing stick and holding vertical, I get 2 drops, the second drop falls at 12 secs....no more drops after 30 seconds

[isuzurover]

sorry if there was confusion, I could NOT get it to prime with the hand primer on the lift pump. I had to get fuel up to the filter by compressed air in the tank re Rick's method. Yes it seems the lift pump is NOW buggered but if you read my post above I dont think it leaking through the CC. BTW since I drained the 2 litres of oil out of the sump on Sat arvo on the side of the road, It has not changed. It is at MAX on dip stick when cold and drops a little when cranking, but comes back to max if standing....surely If the lift pump was leaking in it would have added more to the crank case?

the engine at max is supposed to be 7 litres...so an extra 2 is 35% plus factor in what burnt off during event......

~35% dilution would flow like water. If the level hasn't risen after pressurised bleeding then you should be fine.

Sounds like the engine is OK then!!!

As an interim measure to get it going you could fit an electric lift pump (~$70).

However there should be places on the GC who have TDI lift pumps in stock???

[uninformed]

If I cant get one on the GC I will just get it from MR Automotive or British Off Road. I am still very nervous about the internals of engine, valve train etc. Rick has mentioned also to get the injectors out and look at them.

just to be sure, lift pump wont hand prime fuel into filter, so it must be stuffed, so change it out?

[isuzurover]

just to be sure, lift pump wont hand prime fuel into filter, so it must be stuffed, so change it out?

If it won't hand prime then something is wrong. Either the pump has died, or you have somehow managed to damage the cam lobe or lever that works the pump (unlikely). When you remove the pump, you should check the cam lobe by feel, and also check that the lever looks OK.

Most (Tdi) engines will run with a buggered lift pump, as the IP can suck up fuel to some extent, but will be (very) low on power.

[Blknight.aus]

Did you read all the posts - Serg has managed to prime it using the hand primer by the sound of it. Would be hard to do that if the diaphragm was split.

yes, apparently better than you did...


sorry if there was confusion, I could NOT get it to prime with the hand primer on the lift pump.

if you like consider my post this way...


what happens If im wrong and you dont check the pump, nothing
what happens if Im wrong and you do check the pump, you've learnt how to check the fuel pump which will aid you in future diagnosis of fueling problems (still a good outcome in my books)
What happens If Im right and you check the pump, you've now fixed a problem
What happens if Im right and you dont check the pump. If you're lucky you'll never get the engine to prime because you cant get enough fuel into the pump to obtain good combustion, if you're unlucky... read your first post again and imagine having to title it something like "I can now claim first and second place on the idiot of the year charts."

the pump is rebuild able if you're lucky its just the valves have been pooched by the hammering the pumps received from the over-rev (I'm not convinced it did over-rev if shutting it down by the electrics worked) most commonly the inlet valve will be stuck open if its not a torn diaphragm. If you block the outlet, put a hose on the inlet and blow in with your mouth, an it leaks air needs repair, If it doesnt you might get lucky and a little love with the small rubber knock-o-meter) might get it working again.

Lets speculate for a second that the lift pump was leaking, you over filled it by a liter or so and you got some diesel leaking in from the pump not much lets call it 250ml-.5l when the engine got up to operating temperature the diesel would have fractioned off (along with some of the oil) and been drawn out into the air intake so a very minor leak could easily be masked by the fuel burning off. This is in the same vein as adding up to 10% of the sumps capacities worth of kero to a diesel when you shut down in arctic conditions, when you start up cold the kero keeps the oil thinned down and as the engine warms up the kero evaporates off leaving you with more or less normal engine oil. The major difference is that when that was a popular thing to do Diesels vented their crank cases to atmosphere and not into the air inlet. (picture a 14l+ 6 pot diesel trying to do a runaway.)

[uninformed]

Dave, my next thing to do is the pump. There is definitely something wrong with it now. So I will re read your info in the am and look into it. I am prepared to install a new one if I have to.

There is some oil grime around the bottom of the lift pump and aroung the oil filter housing. Is it ok to hit this with some diesel in a canester gun say at 70psi? Im not going to push stuff in whereit shouldnt go?

[Blknight.aus]

70psi might be a tad high if your talking a liquid pressure of 70psi. If your talking about a degreasing gun that sprays a mist or a broken stream then you should be about right, just watch the atmoisation of the diesel, spray it fine enough and while its not explosive it becomes very conflagerable (and its not good for your lungs either) a heated mix of truck wash should be enough to move most stuff.

Ive got a fairly big job on this weekend but if you want to swing up with the pump I'll disect it for you, If you've got the right aftermarket type already fitted I may have an alternate pump that will bolt onto the existing mounting plate.

[uninformed]

70psi air pressure at the reg on compresser. Canister gun, ie has a undermount pot that you put fluid in and the air nozzel is ontop. Trigger operated. I presume it draws it out by venturi

My spelling probably isnt helping my cause.

[Blknight.aus]

thought that might have been what you ment...

there should be a rated pressure on the gun use that pressure and I wouldnt expect that it would force past anything as they usually throw a pretty good mist, give it a test spray with water first just to see what its going to do and if you're happy with the output theres no harm in trying.

[PAT303]

Lift pumps have a habit of the arm bending,yours could be fine except the arms bent stopping it from working. Pat

[uninformed]

I just went through Dave's check list:

#1 removed the supply line to the lift pump, removed the main return line that comes out the back of the IP. 8-10psi air pressure into the main return line and very shortly after diesel is coming out the supply line to the lift pump.

#2 I reinstalled the supply line to lift pump. I removed the outlet line from the lift pump (this goes to the fuel filter) and hand pumped the lift pump lever. No pressure

#3 I reinstalled the outlet line from the lift pump and removed the supply line again. I hand pumped the lift pump lever and no suction.

Im guessing the lift pump is buggered. Should I start ringing around for a new one, or remove this one and inspect?

[uninformed]

after pricing them and about $110 for a delphi, Im thinking its not worth trying to fix something that may have more than one problem, when i can just remove and replace?

thoughts?

[isuzurover]

after pricing them and about $110 for a delphi, Im thinking its not worth trying to fix something that may have more than one problem, when i can just remove and replace?

thoughts?

Probably a good idea.

[rick130]

IMO you swap out lift pumps, and most to suit a Tdi/TGV aren't serviceable anyway.
I keep one as a spare as the OE ones (QH ?) weren't known for lasting either, I've found the Delphi one much better, so far.

When the tractor one died twelve months ago I just replaced it rather than put a repair kit through it as a replacement (OEM too) was cheaper.

Remember you need olives and a gasket for it. ;)

and banjo washers and injector washers if you are pulling them for a look see too.

[uninformed]

They are just copper right? I'll have to sort out where to get them the correct size.

[rick130]

Any Bosch diesel shop should have them.

[Blknight.aus]

if you've got the right after market lift pump they are completely rebuildable and an overhaul kit is about $40 and it takes about an hour to do.

If you have the OEM pump, now is the time to either look at an after market one OR taking the old pump off and converting the plate to mount a Facet pump + drive relay (take the signal from the IP solenoid wire and then tap either the alternator or the starter terminal for the +ve feed.

[uninformed]

I already bought the Delphi today. Just trying to keep it simple.

[uninformed]

removed the old lift pump(original fitment) and replaced it with the Delphi. It looks to my untrained eye that the main arm on the OEM one is bent up. And if the manual lever is ment to orperate the main arm??? it is not touching the arm.

BTW, both lift pumps manual lever have a 90 degree range of movement when in hand (not on engine) both are restricted to 30 degrees range due to a hose directly below the lift pump. This hose is unable to be moved. I do wonder if the arm doesnt have enough travel to work manually?

once I installed the new lift pump, I tried to hand prime it. I removed the fuel filter bleed bolt and pumped. Maybe I didnt pump enough, but It didnt. SO I turned the engine over and soon enough it gushed out.

I then tried to start it. It would not fire.

Can someone confirm the fuel rail/pipe locations for me. I have, calling the front of the engine, radiator end cylinder #1 and the rear/bulkhead end cylinder #4

Looking at the back of the Injection pump:
#1 top right
#2 bottom right
#3 top left
#4 bottom left

Pics of both lift pumps attached.

[uninformed]

After a harroing 127hrs, with amazing will, heart and courage, Seven has been found alive. He had to cut his own arm off after being stuck in a cravass between the engine block and mount.....he is getting the proper medical attention and resting well

be sure to look out for the book and following movie of his heroic tail

[uninformed]

I just did Ben's viscosity test. I still have the bucket of oil I drained from the engine 30mins after the incident, on the side of the road. This has been untouched since. I did NOT stir it up?

using a tongue depressor, timber, 20mm wide. I dipped it in vertically and withdrew the same. The oil ran continuious for approx 4-5 seconds then started to drip. Using a stop watch and starting it from the time I pulled the tongue depressor out of the oil, I counted 10 drips in 30 seconds. This includes the first 4 or so seconds of flowing oil. Drip number 10 took approx 4-5 seconds from drip 9 and then another 4 or so seconds to the 30 second mark....there was an 11th, but it was very slow,

Oil is Castrol RX Super 15w-40 and was filled new that morning.

[uninformed]

here is a picture of #1 injector. Does anything not look right?

[jakeslouw]

You can't check injectors with your eyeball.

[uninformed]

thanks Jake, I know you have to have them tested by the experts for flow etc. I was more just curious if the tips or any part looked stuffed? I have found another acount of an oil overfill of a 2.8tgv, back in 2006. Apparently his injectors melted and had damage to the top of his pistons.

[Blknight.aus]

to field test an injector mount it upside down on the injector line (decompress the whole engine, crack all the fuel lines and cover the unions with rags) then crank the engine over at wide open throttle with fuel on while you hold a piece of card about 15cm/15cm about 10cm away from the tip of the injector.

if all 4 throw the same pattern and none of them exhibit funny spray patterns/streams/needles/ or leave droplets then they are near enough for what you need for now.

your injector line pattern makes sense to me, the pump turns the same way as the crank and fires in the order 1342 (counter clockwsie if you're looking from the back of the injector pump)

so long as you havent touched them before recording their locations you'll be right. when you go to put them back theres only about 8 ways you can put them on that go close and only 1 way that actually works properly, If you have to move the line unions more than about 1/2 an inch from its resting position then the line is in the wrong place.

[Blknight.aus]

I just did Ben's viscosity test. I still have the bucket of oil I drained from the engine 30mins after the incident, on the side of the road. This has been untouched since. I did NOT stir it up?

using a tongue depressor, timber, 20mm wide. I dipped it in vertically and withdrew the same. The oil ran continuious for approx 4-5 seconds then started to drip. Using a stop watch and starting it from the time I pulled the tongue depressor out of the oil, I counted 10 drips in 30 seconds. This includes the first 4 or so seconds of flowing oil. Drip number 10 took approx 4-5 seconds from drip 9 and then another 4 or so seconds to the 30 second mark....there was an 11th, but it was very slow,

Oil is Castrol RX Super 15w-40 and was filled new that morning.


Id retry that test with new castrol rx super and see what that does as a direct comparison.

[Dougal]

Injector problems won't stop it running. They'd just make it smoke various different colours.

If you've got enough fuel being injected and enough cranking speed then it should start. If it was a vehicle you didn't care about you can just tow it until it fires.

[uninformed]

I just compared new out of the drum Castrol RX Super. When tested with the stop watch, dipped to the same depth etc it comes out pretty much the same. I then tested them side by side. The used engine oil does "run" for a second longer but drips seem the same. Whipping the oil off the tongue dipressors and leaving a drop has them eyeball them same size and thickness.......

very crude testing I know.

would the fact that the engine oil has run through and is now black have thinned it at all?

So if testing the injectors is not next on the list what is?

[uninformed]

I just removed the rocker cover. All looks ok :confused:. No bits of metal floating in there. Is it ok to remove the wire from the back of the Injection pump and turn it over by key? ie it wont start? I want to see if the valve train is moving ok.

[isuzurover]

I just did Ben's viscosity test. I still have the bucket of oil I drained from the engine 30mins after the incident, on the side of the road. This has been untouched since. I did NOT stir it up?

using a tongue depressor, timber, 20mm wide. I dipped it in vertically and withdrew the same. The oil ran continuious for approx 4-5 seconds then started to drip. Using a stop watch and starting it from the time I pulled the tongue depressor out of the oil, I counted 10 drips in 30 seconds. This includes the first 4 or so seconds of flowing oil. Drip number 10 took approx 4-5 seconds from drip 9 and then another 4 or so seconds to the 30 second mark....there was an 11th, but it was very slow,

Oil is Castrol RX Super 15w-40 and was filled new that morning.

Serg - you need to repeat the test with clean castrol RX Super. I have drums of it in the lab, but would need a duplicate of your tongue depressor to do the test for you.

Also - stir up the drained oil and repeat the test to make sure the result is the same.

EDIT - I see you have. Stir the used oil and repeat the test. The soot in the used oil will increase its viscosity very slightly, but not by a measurable amount. You can also mix up a cupful of RXSuper and Diesel at say 10% ratio and compare.

EDIT 2- yes you can crank the engine, and even start/idle it, with the tappet cover removed. Just don't rev it or you will spray oil everywhere.

I may have missed it, but do you have diesel coming out the injector pipes???

[hook]

Yes you can turn the motor over with the IP wire removed.
Hopefuly you see the tappets moving the vales.

[uninformed]

I will have to check the injector lines again. But I did the last time I checked with the original lift pump still installed.

Im thinking about removing the glow plugs and turning over to see if any crap gets pumped out.

Is an increase in viscosity meaning thinner or thicker?

re hand priming the lift pump. Could someone look at their 300tdi and see what range of movement the manual lever has?

[rick130]

I just did Ben's viscosity test. I still have the bucket of oil I drained from the engine 30mins after the incident, on the side of the road. This has been untouched since. I did NOT stir it up?

using a tongue depressor, timber, 20mm wide. I dipped it in vertically and withdrew the same. The oil ran continuious for approx 4-5 seconds then started to drip. Using a stop watch and starting it from the time I pulled the tongue depressor out of the oil, I counted 10 drips in 30 seconds. This includes the first 4 or so seconds of flowing oil. Drip number 10 took approx 4-5 seconds from drip 9 and then another 4 or so seconds to the 30 second mark....there was an 11th, but it was very slow,

Oil is Castrol RX Super 15w-40 and was filled new that morning.

The easiest/best way I know outside of a lab to check for oil dilution is the blotter test.


Get a piece of cardboard (a business card is ideal) and drop some oil onto it and let it spread.
Fuel will show up as a light halo around the darker engine oil and spread quite a bit further as it's a lighter fraction.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/108635-catastrophic-engine-failure-td5-3.html#post1320223

http://www.acustrip.com/specs/images/onedropengine.jpg

http://www.valvolinecummins.com/Images/Common/Faq_clip_image002.gif

FAQ's :: Valvoline :: (http://www.valvolinecummins.com/Faq.asp)

If fuel is present you'll get a distinct ring like a halo outside of the 'colour'

[Blknight.aus]

yep, was about to suggest the blotter test...

do them side by side using freshly stirred oil...

I prefer to tilt the sheet of paper combining a very basic version of 3 tests in one.

1. viscosity. how far does it run how quickly? the further it runs, the thinner it is
2. Particle density seperation. Whats in the oil, whats it made of? as the drop of oil runs down the paper and gets smaller the lighter heavier bits will get stuck at the top of the droplet and stick to the paper the heavier bits will be at the bottom.
3. Oil quality. Where the bead finally stops moving and settles if you drop the piece of paper down flat the above indicated blotter test results will show up.

[George130]

Wouldn't have been a full runaway. They end in tears and lots of smoke. I still have a full TD5 engine to pull down and work out what internal damage was done when it ate all the oil and coolant on the freeway.
Bonet lining was just starting to burn by the time I managed to get out and pop the hood.

[uninformed]

here is a short vid of the valve train on turn over:

2.8tgv valve train - YouTube

[isuzurover]

Looks good to me. Have you undone those 4 big gold coloured nuts yet, then cranked the engine (with IP wire connected) until fuel comes out all 4???

[uninformed]

I had done it prior to removing and replacing the lift pump. I just did again and yes fuel is being squirted out of them in a "timed" fasion. I then put them back and tried starting.....again.

It fired and on the second try started. It ran for about 10 secs (real time) I just let it idle. It was a bit rough and seemed to start to smooth out a bit before shuting down.

very hard to tell, but I want to believe I didnt hear anything real bad or clunky like :confused:

It wont start again....

[uninformed]

I rang a diesel injection place recommended to me. They said the can test the injectors, free of charge? $320 to check the Bosch Injection pump. They want $5 PER copper washer for each injector :eek:

what are the thoughts on this? And Im assuming $320 for th IP is for me to remove it and take to them.

[rainman]

And Im assuming $320 for th IP is for me to remove it and take to them.

Correct. That sounds ballpark for a bench test, unfortunately :(.

James.

[uninformed]

$320 is fine as long as it is fair. I dont have buckets of money, but expect to pay what is resonable for a GOOD quality job.

Pay cheap, pay twice

[Blknight.aus]

read the field method of injection testing I put in above, if they pass on that they will do for what you need for now.

That cranking speed from the vid looks a little slow for my liking but not so slow that it wont start.

roughly your cranking speed is 210RPM (7 operations of the #1 valve in 4 seconds(ish) 7*2 (crank rotates at 2X cam speed) /4= about 3.5 cranks per second 3.5*60=210RPM...

Ideally you want 350ish+

[uninformed]

wha would effect crank speed other than battery performance?

[Dougal]

If this was me, I'd be tow-starting it until it fires or dies. Batteries can only do so much.

But I do get a little draconian at times. Machinery is there to serve me dammit.:D

[Blknight.aus]

why dont you have a go at doing the IP timing check for yourself?

remove the front cover, turn the crank till the IP is in alignment with its timing mark and then insert the timing pin, if the crank marker is inline and the #4 valves are one the rock then the engines in sync and should start, given that it had a go at starting I suspect that you're just purging air from the system. Hook it up to some not kidding class jumper leads and a running vehicle with 700CCA+ of battery and see what it does.

Depending on where you are i might be able to swing by with the compression tester and check that out for you.

[uninformed]

is there such a thing as a bore scope (with light) that would fit inside the injector or glow plug hole?

[rick130]

[snip]

But I do get a little draconian at times. Machinery is there to serve me dammit.:D

Spoken like most of the B.Eng(Mech) I've ever known, no mechanical sympathy whatsoever. :twisted:




Actually, sounds like most mechanics I've known too :lol2:



I think this is where I get all pretentious and call myself a 'technician' just like all the young blokes in my trade :angel:

:Rolling:

[rick130]

Serg, when you get a 10mm deep socket just pull the Glow plugs and crank the bugger to clear the pots then just try and fire her up.

With the amount of oil you got out of the intake side of things it's all probably too wet inside the chambers to fire properly.

Or just tripe glow the bugger the get the pots warm and try and fire her.

[uninformed]

would a bent rod be effecting crank speed?

[jakeslouw]

would a bent rod be effecting crank speed?

Maybe, but it would affect the ability to start. Maybe you've bent all 4?

[wrinklearthur]

would a bent rod be effecting crank speed?

As it has been suggested to take out the glow plugs, a quick test can be done the determine if the pistons are equal in their height using a length of wire ( cut a piece out of a coat hanger ) feed it down through the glow plug hole of cylinder No 1 and with a socket and 1/2 drive, turn motor over steady until you have the piston at top dead centre, clamp a set of mole grips at the top of the cylinder head.
repeat this test in No 4 next and note the difference if the length varies, it won't be much even if the conrod is badly bent and in a motor I did recently with a badly bent conrod the difference was about 5 mm max.
spin the motor crank another half turn and then test cylinders No 2 and 3.

If the motor has bent conrod's in all four then the compression would be down and the crank speed should be faster, but then the conrod's could be fouling the bottom of their cylinders, as Blknight.aus has already questioned the slower crank speed .

[Blknight.aus]

is there such a thing as a bore scope (with light) that would fit inside the injector or glow plug hole?


yes, I have 2, one digital and one old school.

specifically purchased for checking out the injectors on a series but I think we might be in with a shot, on yours, but you dont need to inspect inside there are other fault finding methods you can use.

Compression test is the first test, depending on what that brings out you need a leak down test.

once thats done you know what you need to pull of and since thats invariably going to include a head pull you do that.

then you measure piston stand off from the block head (after checking the block level) and work out the crank deflection and providing that the leakdown prooved that the rings and pots were at least reasonable you inspect the bores on the way and make a decision as to wether or not your going to do a bottom end overhaul or rebuild.


Now to work all that out its about time the conversation heads to somewhere like this...

"Hey dave, you seem to have all the gear to measure up this engine for me and help me work out what I need to do, can you come over and give me a hand"

"not sure, where are you"

"Im at X"

"cool, I'll be out there on Y"

"Nahh can you make is sooner?"

"depends when?"

"z?"

"sure, gunna cost you about a carton and fuel money"

hashing out the X+Y should be easy enough Z will depend on my schedules.

[uninformed]

I did an oil blot test last night. See attached pic:

[uninformed]

I removed the glow plugs today. Number 2 is toast, which leads me to think bigger problems lie beneth.

#1 on the left - #4 on the right:
#1 at top - #4 at bottom:

[slug_burner]

I don't know that the glow plug condition is definitive in tell us the condition of the motor, it is just something to be followed up.

[PAT303]

I rang a diesel injection place recommended to me. They said the can test the injectors, free of charge? $320 to check the Bosch Injection pump. They want $5 PER copper washer for each injector :eek:

what are the thoughts on this? And Im assuming $320 for th IP is for me to remove it and take to them.

Put the copper washers on the stove and anneal them,they'll change color and go soft and re-use. Pat

[PAT303]

I don't know that the glow plug condition is definitive in tell us the condition of the motor, it is just something to be followed up.

Glow plugs won't have anything to do with the motor not starting,I'd do what Dougal posted and tow it behind another vehicle,thats worked for me getting Toyota indirect injection POS started in cold weather. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

2s been over heated and does not provide a definitive answer it could have been done from overglowing.

the rest look like normal combustion conditions.

[Dougal]

Glow plugs won't have anything to do with the motor not starting,I'd do what Dougal posted and tow it behind another vehicle,thats worked for me getting Toyota indirect injection POS started in cold weather. Pat

You can start anything if you tow it long enough. Once managed to start a toyota IDI which we worked out later had dropped a precombustion cup. The only description we had was "truck stopped and wouldn't restart".

[uninformed]

Well if my truck was just a toy or farm basher I probably would tow etc to try and start it. Then again, I probably would have just pulled it down by now, learning as I go. Unfortunately, with the $$$ I payed for this NEW engine only 2 or so years ago and it being my source of income, I dont want to f@#k it up more than I already have.

My uninformed, crude thoughts on #2 glow plug is, that if there has been enough heat to do that, what else could be wrong in that cylinder, ie piston etc....

Turning it over to tes a few things is probably not going to do much more damage, but towing it around untill it fires could result in a scrap heap.

[Dougal]

Oil ingestion normally results in mechanical damage (hydraulicing) rather than thermal. You get lots of smoke because the oil isn't atomised well (comes in blobs, rather than a fine spray) but it doesn't produce much heat.

The reason behind towing it, is the cylinders build up more heat and compression pressure than they can by cranking with the starter. So it can start a stubborn engine where cranking just endangers the starter motor.

If it turns over freely already I don't see it causing any damage. Provided you've stopped the oil source.

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

Don't forget this listing on eBay, could help someone.

eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170372094176'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_598wt_952)

.

[isuzurover]

Oil ingestion normally results in mechanical damage (hydraulicing) rather than thermal. You get lots of smoke because the oil isn't atomised well (comes in blobs, rather than a fine spray) but it doesn't produce much heat.

The reason behind towing it, is the cylinders build up more heat and compression pressure than they can by cranking with the starter. So it can start a stubborn engine where cranking just endangers the starter motor.

If it turns over freely already I don't see it causing any damage. Provided you've stopped the oil source.

x2.

[uninformed]

well the only basess of oil source I have, was the level on the Dip stick being high (15mm or so higher than max mark) after oil change, the fact I have dropped out 2 litres and that now the dip stick shows just under max.

I removed all the intake plumbing and thougherly cleaned it, including the intercooler.

I have not checked the turbo.

I have replaced the lift pump. (it was not pumping due to a bent arm). Whether or not it was leaking into the sump is questionable, but with the evidence so far Im leading towards it wasnt.)

I have now figured that since my engine is different to the 300tdi that the lever arm on the lift pump only gets 1/3 of its range of movement, therefore not enough to manually pump fuel. I have seem a photo of another 2.8 being fitted into a defender. The lift pump did NOT have a manual lever. I belive this engine to be a new factory supplied unit.

my concern is a bent rod or stuffed rings and fear that continuealy trying to start it or starting it will lead to futher bore damage?

[isuzurover]

my concern is a bent rod or stuffed rings and fear that continuealy trying to start it or starting it will lead to futher bore damage?

You are getting oil pressure up while cranking - so therefore you shouldn't be doing any harm except to the life of your batteries and starter.

If the rings were so bad that it won't start you would have pressure chuffing out the oil filler hole when starting/running.

You have managed to start it on a few occasions now??? I suspect you may be babying it too much??? Hold your foot flat down on the accelerator while trying to start it, and once it starts, hold your foot down until it runs/revs smoothly.

I agree with Dougal on the tow start issue. Have someone tow you around the block, with you in 3rd gear holding your foot down flat. You won't make things worse than they are...

Sorry I am not nearer or I would come and give you a hand.

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

Thinking about this, but not having access to a 2.8, I wonder.

Being a bit of a goose myself a while back, I managed to over fill the engine on our ride on mower, the oil was fed into the carby by the crankcase breather, smoke and rough running was the result, with thankfully no long term damage.

The excess oil could have back up the oil return from the turbo, this would have strained the friendship of the turbo's seal.

But if the air ways from the turbo were clean of any oil, then I wouldn't look any more at the turbo, but instead, work out whether oil had built up in the rocker cover to the point that it was forced pass the valve stem seals.
.

[uninformed]

As was stated early on, when I removed all the intake plumbing, pre and post turbo, there was signs of excess oil. Half a cup came from the turbo - intercooler bottom hose. Half a cup came from the intercooler itself. The main intake line had about a spoon full, including the bottom of the airfilter being oil stained/wet.

Yesterday I had some running around to do, and was able to pic up a compression tester gauge and hose. I also mangaged to pick up an old injector same as mine. The hose on the gauge has a quick connect air fitting and I was lucky to have the male fitting at home (USA type not so common here). I gutted the injector (which was a *****) and bored it out through its length, cut the threads off it and the fitting then welded them together. Cut the tip off, cleaned it all up and loctited a grub screw into the banjo bolt hole for spill return. Just waiting on the lcotite to cure and I will atempt to perform a compression test on each cylinder.

I had a look in the 300tdi manual and saw a figure of 348psi when warm. Now I havent found the compression ratio or psi figure for mine. So:

If my engine has the same comp ratio but a larger bore and stroke does that mean a higher psi reading?

what would I expect a good 300tdi to read when cold?

[Dougal]

The added volume of your gutted injector will give a lower reading. It's probably best to check your tester on a known good engine and compare those engines.

But I suspect it's readings across the cylinders you are most interested in for variation. So absolute figures won't matter as much.

[isuzurover]

If you multiply CR*15 then you will get the absolute minimum value you should get - in this case ~292 psi. (19.5:1). That is the value you would get cold if you do not inject any fuel and the air does not heat up while being compressed.

So if you get less than that you will know something is wrong. I expect you should get around th 325 psi mark cold.

Make sure the batteries are fully charged, and remove all 4 injectors before testing.

[uninformed]

why do I remove all 4 injectors before testing? In the RAVE it states to warm engine up (I cant), remove #1 injector and replace with dummy Injector/testor. Disconnect the IP solinode lead and crank for 10-20 secs....repeat for each individual cylinder.

[uninformed]

The added volume of your gutted injector will give a lower reading. It's probably best to check your tester on a known good engine and compare those engines.

But I suspect it's readings across the cylinders you are most interested in for variation. So absolute figures won't matter as much.

The RAVE manual shows a full length dummy injector. I have NOT seen one in person so have NO idea of the internal bore. Mine is drilled out to 4.5mm in the main body.

At this stage Im just trying to get a base line and also see if there is a difference across the cylinders as you said. If its near ball park and all even, I will continue to try and start. If one is low or all lower than should be, I suspect it will be strip down time.

[isuzurover]

why do I remove all 4 injectors before testing? In the RAVE it states to warm engine up (I cant), remove #1 injector and replace with dummy Injector/testor. Disconnect the IP solinode lead and crank for 10-20 secs....repeat for each individual cylinder.

Mainly so the engine cranks faster, giving you a better reading.

[Blknight.aus]

the other reason you pull the plugs is so that in the event that something goes awry the engine wont try to start.

watching an idiot try to do a compression test on a 4bd1 sent the workshop gauge halfway across the room. aparently the correct way to do a compression test on a diesel is not.

remove glow plug #1
screw in compression tester
stand on the accelerator to open the butterfly
Key engine on starter
panic at the noise of the top half of the compression tester going elsewhere

Dont forget the absolute pressure in this case is not as important as the variation I work on 5% difference, you may also want to do it with the intercooler-intake hose removed.

[uninformed]

well my fear/s have been confirmed. With all injectors removed and the dummy injector installed as a normal injector (ie clamped down as per spec to seal it, using a copped washer at head), I got the following readings for each cylinder:

#1 450psi
#2 220psi
#3 480psi
#4 425psi

Now this test was not a true indication of the cylinders, but a reference of each to the others. There is no way of knowing how much oil/fuel is in the bores due to the incident and all the starting attempts. (creating ring seal) Gauge was a brand new snap-on (including hose and fittings)

All 4 cylinders were tested the same, except I did #2 twice. I had the engine turned over for approx 6-8secs. This was enough to see the gauge rise , rise and level out. Once peeked, I would keep it turned for a few more revolutions(within the 6-8 sec) I would have turned it over more for each cylinder but the diesel was being pumped out.

Which leads me to my next :confused:..... I had the wire removed from the back of the IP. Fuel was continually pumped and appeard to mostly be coming from the banjo bolt on the return spill line. All or there abouts, out of cylinder #1 banjo bolt. After the 4 cylinder compression tests it must have pumped 3 or so cups of diesel out.

Can anyone recommend a good diesel engine rebuilder on or around the Gold Coast? I know of Ricks4wd and MR Automotive. Im looking to have a few options to choose from. Must warrant their work. Pm me if you dont want to post here.

[rick130]

Ouch :(

[Blknight.aus]

Theres a good one out here in ipswich...

I've sent stuff to him before and not had any complaints back about the work....

its cheaper if you have most of the stripdown work done in advance. I'll try to track down his number and PM it to you...(thats a hint to send me a reminder in a few days if I forget to.)

Theres a couple of diesel shops a bit further abroad that do diesels as a specialty but wont pull the motor for you (conveniently one of them is located next to a mechanic who will and you can arrange for a tow in drive out end state.)

[Dougal]

Bugger. The worst has come true.

[wrinklearthur]

I got the following readings for each cylinder:
#1 450psi
#2 220psi
#3 480psi
#4 425psi
Did you try and measure the piston height, as I tied to explain in one of my previous posts? Number two looks like it has had a hydraulic lock and has bent its conrod. But ! it could also mean that a push rod and/or valve stem is sticking, much easier fix. So before pulling the head off, check the valve clearance settings and do that wire test measurement down the glow plug holes, --- again, you will need a set of mole grips, a stiff wire and your feeler gauges.
Do the test on cylinders 1 and four first, then turn the motor over until the No's two and three are at their top dead centre and repeat this test.
Insert the wire down the No 1 glow plug hole, until it touches the piston at top dead centre, with a feeler gauge blade between the head and the mole grips clamped off then try the other cylinders, if number two conrod is bent then the wire won't reach the top of the piston using those settings


Now this test was not a true indication of the cylinders, but a reference of each to the others. There is no way of knowing how much oil/fuel is in the bores due to the incident and all the starting attempts. (creating ring seal) Gauge was a brand new snap-on (including hose and fittings)
By having the injectors removed and spinning the motor over, should blow most of the rubbish out.


All 4 cylinders were tested the same, except I did #2 twice. I had the engine turned over for approx 6-8secs. This was enough to see the gauge rise , rise and level out. Once peeked, I would keep it turned for a few more revolutions(within the 6-8 sec) I would have turned it over more for each cylinder but the diesel was being pumped out.

Which leads me to my next :confused:..... I had the wire removed from the back of the IP. Fuel was continually pumped and appeard to mostly be coming from the banjo bolt on the return spill line. All or there abouts, out of cylinder #1 banjo bolt. After the 4 cylinder compression tests it must have pumped 3 or so cups of diesel out.
Doesn't the fuel pump keep circulating the fuel through the IP when cranking the motor and the solenoid is off ? undo the pipe at the filter that goes across to the fuel pump.
.

[uninformed]

Dave, I thought you did all your own work :confused:

Arthur, Im getting to the point were its going to be better in professional hands. Time is ticking and I need it to get moving into repair mode. Regardless of the valve or rod I want the head off and at least a visual inspection of pistons and bores etc.

with regards to the IP: Im not sure of how they function, but was under the impression that if the IP solinoide wire was removed it would stop delivering fuel to the injectors. I figured there would be a little fuel left inside it and the rails, But this continuied to pump during all the tests. I did have it in my mind that the lift pump would keep pumping due to the fact it is mechanical and works of the cam shaft. Someone can fill us in?

[isuzurover]

The worst has come true, bugger. Most likely a bent conrod as discussed.

Since you are spending the money Serg, you may as well spend the few extra $$$ to have the pistons and conrods balanced.

[wrinklearthur]

Dave, I thought you did all your own work :confused:

Arthur, Im getting to the point were its going to be better in professional hands. Time is ticking and I need it to get moving into repair mode. Regardless of the valve or rod I want the head off and at least a visual inspection of pistons and bores etc.

with regards to the IP: Im not sure of how they function, but was under the impression that if the IP solinoide wire was removed it would stop delivering fuel to the injectors. I figured there would be a little fuel left inside it and the rails, But this continuied to pump during all the tests. I did have it in my mind that the lift pump would keep pumping due to the fact it is mechanical and works of the cam shaft. Someone can fill us in?

Hi again

Just happened to have a cobber here, that knows a thing or two
When I read this I asked him about what you noticed with the fuel coming through the injector pipes, Yes that,s right but with no pressure available.
.

[rick130]

The worst has come true, bugger. Most likely a bent conrod as discussed.

Since you are spending the money Serg, you may as well spend the few extra $$$ to have the pistons and conrods balanced.

Hahaha, someone was mentioning this on the phone at about the time you posted this :D

[rainman]

I'd just like to give a big thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. There is such a massive collection of knowledge and experience here, especially relating to the specifics about diesel engines. This thread is a classic example of why AULRO works so well, and why we, in this "little" country of ours, have members and followers from all over the world.

.... and a big thanks to uniformed (Serg) :thumbsup:! It really sucks that you're going through what you are, but you have my complete admiration for openly admitting your mistake, remaining positive while working through it, and also keeping the thread so up to date with such a big issue at hand. I couldn't do it.

Well done everyone!


James.

[uninformed]

yes a big thanks is desevered to those that have helped. Thanks :)

The tilt tray is booked for 7am tomorrow to tow it to the mechanic. I will keep this thread updated as more info is found. I will be interested to see what damage has been done :confused:

If I had the time/money/space etc I would have a go at it myself for nothing other than to learn some more.

On a similar note, I was speaking to a mate today that us to be in the LR game. He was telling me of a recent lift pump failure in a workshop he knows. The pump had a split in it leaking fuel into the crank case, they were not aware of this. The engine was running in the workshop when it ran away. They choked the air intake and stopped it.

[Blknight.aus]

Dave, I thought you did all your own work :confused:



only most mate, engines I rebuild I send to him for boring decking and crank machining, my hobby lathe and 3 axis drill mill just arent up to that kind of work.

I build them from there myself BUT he also does rebuild work and the difference in price between him building it up to short motor after its been machined and me doing it after hes machined it would be about negligble.

and I'll back winkle authors friend on this one... the pump will try to shift whatevers available to it if it can without the injector acting as a stopper it will pump out whats in the internal galleries.(bout 250ml total from memory)

[uninformed]

Re Aurther's point of maybe a pushrod sticking. I dont think so, I just watched my little vid again and all rockers are moving up and down as should.....

[uninformed]

I got a call from the Mechanic today, so I went and had a look (with camera)....

let the speculation begin :confused:

Pictures are as follow from left to right:
engine block, #2 cylinder/piston 2nd from left
#2 piston
#2 piston
#2 bore

[uninformed]

pics of the other pistons:

#4 piston
#1 piston

[uninformed]

transfer to head:

head, #2 second from left
#2 chamber

[rainman]

So forgiving my lack of knowledge, are we looking at melted piston crowns 2 and 4; especially bad on piston 2?

James.

[Dougal]

This story just keeps getting worse :(

Sure that's not a ZD30?

How do you overheat just #2 enough to melt the piston and grab the bore? I figured that cylinder would be one getting the most air. How are the valves?

[rick130]

Serg, FWIW here's a photo of the pot on that 2.8 that was overfilled and ran away in '06

[rick130]

This story just keeps getting worse :(

Sure that's not a ZD30?

How do you overheat just #2 enough to melt the piston and grab the bore? I figured that cylinder would be one getting the most air. How are the valves?

and the head.

My suggestion yesterday was to get the head hardness tested regardless as I'm guessing # 2 may show up a little soft after the look of that glow plug earlier. :(

How much is a good second hand or recoed 300Tdi, just to get you back on the road and working ?

[wrinklearthur]

Oh Dear !

Well that's not a good look and it's time to price another new long motor I feel.
What do the others think? But I would say that block would be a worry as well.
I think that if it was mine I would sell that motor off to get back some of the costs and get a new motor with a new turbo as well. How's the money tree going?

Those pictures certainly do tell a different story, too much combustionable material has found its way into that motor, number two cylinder, being the one that copped the worse of the oil from the turbo seal failure.
The EGT would have been high, with that I'm going to fit a EGT device to my Defender now.
.

[isuzurover]

How much does a head cost Serg? Do 300Tdi heads fit? (hopefully the head is still good though... but you haven't had much luck lately...)

And do OS Tdi pistons fit???

[Bush65]

Sorry to see this Serge :(

I haven't had time to look at all the posts here.

Until I saw the last few posts I was thinking overfilling to that extent shouldn't cause this and it had to be something else. The oil level near some cylinders will get much higher when offroad on ledges, steep slopes or side slopes.

I need to look at the thread more carefully and have to go now, but suggest getting someone to test No 2 injector.

[uninformed]

So forgiving my lack of knowledge, are we looking at melted piston crowns 2 and 4; especially bad on piston 2?

James.

#2 is the problem, or result there of. Numbers 1 and 4 were shown as a reference and to see if any would say they were bad or good. Our judgment is the rest are good (at this early stage)

remember the truck was only dropped off this morning. Early days yet.

[uninformed]

This story just keeps getting worse :(

Sure that's not a ZD30?

How do you overheat just #2 enough to melt the piston and grab the bore? I figured that cylinder would be one getting the most air. How are the valves?

hey Ill ask the questions around here.......your ment to be one of the ones that can answer them :p

valve and head pic attached on previous page. Head is going in for a full check up.....time will tell.

[uninformed]

Serg, FWIW here's a photo of the pot on that 2.8 that was overfilled and ran away in '06

HA! light weight....mine is much worse!! His is cylinder/piston #3

I do wonder why :confused:

[rainman]

How much does a head cost Serg? Do 300Tdi heads fit?

There's a bare 300Tdi head in the Markets. It's flat, compared to Serg's which has slightly spherical combustion chambers.

http://www.aulro.com/apc/showproduct.php/product/6866/cat/all

James.

[uninformed]

Oh Dear !

Well that's not a good look and it's time to price another new long motor I feel.
What do the others think? But I would say that block would be a worry as well.
I think that if it was mine I would sell that motor off to get back some of the costs and get a new motor with a new turbo as well. How's the money tree going?

Those pictures certainly do tell a different story, too much combustionable material has found its way into that motor, number two cylinder, being the one that copped the worse of the oil from the turbo seal failure.
The EGT would have been high, with that I'm going to fit a EGT device to my Defender now.
.


I think that the block should be ok....a guess but nothing leads to say it is bad. The engine is 70k old so not really old. It has been well looked after otherwise :eek:. The cost of any decent new motor would (hopefully) be well above repairing this one (read double) It would be very hard to source a new 2.8tgv, so I would be back with a 300tdi (which I really really dont want!) Plus a 300tdi would need some custom work as custom work has been done to fit this engine = more money for a new engine.

Turbo seal has not been rulled out but I think it to early to say it was the problem. Yes it could be ****** now, but that could have been a result rather than a cause. The lift pump is in the same boat, but leaning to a result not cause.

DEFINITELY fit and EGT, regardless of engine stock or not, etc. It would not have changed this outcome, but it certainly has helped others avoid engine failure or damage.

[uninformed]

Sorry to see this Serge :(

I haven't had time to look at all the posts here.

Until I saw the last few posts I was thinking overfilling to that extent shouldn't cause this and it had to be something else. The oil level near some cylinders will get much higher when offroad on ledges, steep slopes or side slopes.

I need to look at the thread more carefully and have to go now, but suggest getting someone to test No 2 injector.

Thanks John, I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts. I realise your internet time is limited so dont stress if you cant get back for a while, but please do get back when you can.

I only said to Rick today about the stock max oil level getting higher at angle when offroading. The only difference is what offroading I have done is mostly low speed/RPM stuff so the crank would be throwing/sloshing less. My engine has the standard 2.8tgv sump, NOT the 300tdi sump.

It was approx 15-20mm higher on the dipstick when read just before the drive out to "Death-by-oil" rd (dipstick is also the original 2.8 set up)

all 4 injectors and Injection pump will be tested. We figure #2 is stuffed, but, once again, that could be result not cause.......

[wrinklearthur]

over filled it.-------then took it for its first proper run after fixing the turbo. ------..........then the engine starts to rev faster and faster by itself......yep it was running on the oil ----.....massive plume of white/grey smoke.
------I had it towed home. I removed the intercooler and all its hoses and cleaned them out. I got about half a cup of oil out of the bottom hose and about half a cup out of the intercooler. The intake hose from air filter to turbo had some in it but only a table spoon or so. The engine breather line was very oily and the bottom of the airfilter has oil on it.
Edit: forgot to add, engine is a 2.8tgv, very similar to a 300tdi

Reading this post again and putting the last information supplied together.
The oil may have come from the breather where it feeds into the air intake hose or the turbo seals, either way it has caused a runaway motor.
Those pistons have been too hot and that number two cylinder would have got the worst of the oil.

[uninformed]

How much does a head cost Serg? Do 300Tdi heads fit? (hopefully the head is still good though... but you haven't had much luck lately...)

And do OS Tdi pistons fit???

I rang a NZ mob today that use to do 2.8 conversions, but they no longer have parts. Im waiting to call M&D in the uk to nut out some prices.

2.8tgv is 93mm bore, 300tdi is 90.47, so at even 50thou over bore the tdi would only be 91.72mm

[isuzurover]

There's a bare 300Tdi head in the Markets. It's flat, compared to Serg's which has slightly spherical combustion chambers.

http://www.aulro.com/apc/showproduct.php/product/6866/cat/all

James.

The HS2.8 head looks flat to me, apart from a small recess which is slightly larger than on the 300. Serg?

[uninformed]

Arthur, it has been in the back of a few minds that just maybe a turbo seal. For two reasons, #1 **** happens and sometime things just break/fail and #2 since I fixed the trubo, with oxy/acet to silver solder the actuator rod pin back into the plate, heat was applied....BUT, it was localised to the needed area, AND, turbos see quite high temps in normal operation. The heat was not applied internally at all.

Turbo will be going to a specialist in brisbane (Mike Vine?) to be checked

[rainman]

The HS2.8 head looks flat to me, apart from a small recess which is slightly larger than on the 300. Serg?

:D It's quite possible I need glasses. I'm nearly at that age ;).

James.

[Dougal]

It took me 3 months to get to the bottom of my oil consumption. I'm hoping others here can sort it sooner.

Can you post up pics of your intake manifold and pipe setup? Just want to see if liquid in the manifold would run into #2 or not.

[uninformed]

The HS2.8 head looks flat to me, apart from a small recess which is slightly larger than on the 300. Serg?

well I bloody hope I dont need a new one thank you very much!....but Im thinking there may be some difference in the 300tdi to 2.8tgv. The bore centers on the 2.8tgv are close between #1 and #2 and between #3 and #4, with a larger gap between #2 and #3.....not sure about the 300tdi??? from the pics in that add it looks kinda of equal across the head :confused:

EDIT: International's part# for the head is 70993464, is that a LR part#?

[uninformed]

It took me 3 months to get to the bottom of my oil consumption. I'm hoping others here can sort it sooner.

Can you post up pics of your intake manifold and pipe setup? Just want to see if liquid in the manifold would run into #2 or not.

The truck is at the mechanics, I will be going in tomorrow to drop off some more info and to pic up some bits to run around for him. I will get some for you.

EDIT: I just uploaded this short vid from when I was trying to start it. You may be able to get an idea from it:

dead 2.8tgv.MTS - YouTube

[rick130]

Scuttlebutt is that it's the same head when you order a replacement 300Tdi head these days ?

Bore centres are the same across both engines, that's why I'd reckon there has to be more meat in a 2.8 block than there is when you bore out a 300Tdi to fit 2.8 pistons.

All parts are still available in South America, apparently it's just crate engines that aren't available anymore.

Just a shame our Portuguese and Spanish is non existent.

Just had a thought, have you PM'd Jase at all ?

The other one to try is PM Santiago (SG1) and see if it's possible/viable for him to mail stuff from Argentina ?

[uninformed]

Scuttlebutt is that it's the same head when you order a replacement 300Tdi head these days ?

Bore centres are the same across both engines, that's why I'd reckon there has to be more meat in a 2.8 block than there is when you bore out a 300Tdi to fit 2.8 pistons.

All parts are still available in South America, apparently it's just crate engines that aren't available anymore.

Just a shame our Portuguese and Spanish is non existent.

Just had a thought, have you PM'd Jase at all ?

The other one to try is PM Santiago (SG1) and see if it's possible/viable for him to mail stuff from Argentina ?

I will know more tonight after I speak with M&D. I feel more comfortable dealing with someone in the UK (no language barrier) than trying to sort stuff ex Argentina. Has Jase been around here at all???

[wrinklearthur]

It took me 3 months to get to the bottom of my oil consumption. I'm hoping others here can sort it sooner.

Can you post up pics of your intake manifold and pipe setup? Just want to see if liquid in the manifold would run into #2 or not.

The air from the turbo on a 300TDi ( the 2.8tgv is the same ), goes in the bottom of the intercooler the air speed picks up the oil and causes a mist which is carried on up into the motor.
This is the same principle a oil bath air cleaner works , but in the case of the air cleaner, there is wire gauze in the body of the air cleaner which captures the oil spray and then it drips back into the oil reservoir carrying any dirt particle with it.
.

[Dougal]

The air from the turbo on a 300TDi ( the 2.8tgv is the same ), goes in the bottom of the intercooler the air speed picks up the oil and causes a mist which is carried on up into the motor.
This is the same principle a oil bath air cleaner works , but in the case of the air cleaner, there is wire gauze in the body of the air cleaner which captures the oil spray and then it drips back into the oil reservoir carrying any dirt particle with it.
.

And confirmed by Serge's video above.
Honestly to get enough oil into the engine to hydraulic it, you would need to fill the intercooler. Further it doesn't look internally like the engine has been hydraulic'd.
I'm thinking the oil is a red-herring and the run-away problem (and cylinder damge) may be completely unrelated to the high oil level.

Serge, there is a Brazillian guy on 4btswaps.com who could do with a productive research job on 2.8 parts. He loves diesels and knows a lot about which vehicles and engines are available there. Let me know if you want to get him in contact.

[uninformed]

And confirmed by Serge's video above.
Honestly to get enough oil into the engine to hydraulic it, you would need to fill the intercooler. Further it doesn't look internally like the engine has been hydraulic'd.
I'm thinking the oil is a red-herring and the run-away problem (and cylinder damge) may be completely unrelated to the high oil level.

Serge, there is a Brazillian guy on 4btswaps.com who could do with a productive research job on 2.8 parts. He loves diesels and knows a lot about which vehicles and engines are available there. Let me know if you want to get him in contact.

I will just re vist the few facts I have from this whole incident:

max oil amount on refill is 7 litres. I measured plus 2 litres (what I removed)

Turbo was removed and repaired before oil change.

Oil level was checked at dipstick BEFORE starting engine after change. It was high. After a small 5km run home, it was checked again. It was now 15-20mm higher than max on the dipstick.

Lift pump was not working (bent arm) after the over rev incident. Note, manual lever arm can only be moved through 30 degrees from level due to set up on this engine (it fowles on a pipe outlet from oil filter/cooler housing. I have seen some photos of these engines brand new and there is NO lever arm on the outside of lift pump. So hand priming proves nothing.

Oil was found in the bottom hose from turbo to intercooler AND in the intercooler (1/2 a cup in each). Oil was found in the main intake hose from the air cleaner (the bottom of the filter has oil on it), about a table spoon of oil was removed from the main intake hose(Filter to turbo). Engine breather hose (cyclone to air intake) was very oily. Cyclone feed hose is fed of the dipstick pipe (1/2 way up it) cyclone is also attached to the rocker cover same as a 300tdi.

#2 Injector may well be buggered now, but is that a result or cause?

Lift pump main arm may have bent due to either diesel seeping through a split in the diaphragm and then the arm could not compress it and bent. Or it was oil pressurised in under the diaphragm and same result for arm????

[wrinklearthur]

Don't forget this listing on eBay, could help someone.
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170372094176'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_598wt_952) .

Another place to try, as they do sell sleeves for 300 TDi's.

Online Catalogue (http://www.turnerengineering.co.uk/acatalog/shop.html)
.

[uninformed]

Rick, how much does it cost to get an oil analysis? I still have the engine oil removed on the day of incident....

[isuzurover]

Rick, how much does it cost to get an oil analysis? I still have the engine oil removed on the day of incident....

~$25 a pop, but you need to buy them in kits of 10 usually (postage paid).

That is a good thing because their numbers are a bit rubbery. I would buy a kit for 10 samples, thoroughly stir your oil and then fill 3 sample jars at once. Don't tell them that the samples are all the same.

I use(d) ALS Wearcheck, until we found their soot numbers were wrong (but we found that other companies are just as bad). Their viscosity data should be OK - which is more what you are looking for.



Serg - look on the bright side - you don't need any new conrods!!!

[rick130]

The basic E-monitor one is here e-Monitor oil analysis - A blood test for your vehicle - Australian Laboratory Services - Australia (http://www.e-monitor.com.au/)

It doesn't have some of the things I used to get tested, but it covers the basics, although I've found none of the Australian labs seem to be able to measure fuel levels under 1%, but I don't think you're looking for a minimal dilution level either :angel:

[Blknight.aus]

This story just keeps getting worse :(

Sure that's not a ZD30?

How do you overheat just #2 enough to melt the piston and grab the bore? I figured that cylinder would be one getting the most air. How are the valves?

ID go with a dodgy injector that was never closing, a piston cooling jet that was blocked or low compression on theo ther 3 pots. but it also looks like #4 has met the valve....

lets speculate for a second on all 3.

IF #2 injector was dribbling enough it would have been washing the bores of lubricant and because of the excess fuel that pot would have been working harder than the rest. The fuel washing would have caused the bores to glaze and under the right conditions the excess fuel would have been cooking that pot. with the bores glazed blowby would have become an issue with the extra blow by combined with too high an oil level theres your runaway, once its gotten wound up enough a little valve float+ bounce has started to occur and because #4 runs the hottest it will typically have the tightest valve clearance if youve only done a cold set on them..

If pot #2 has had no benefit from under side cooling its going to run hotter than normal once the engine is pushed it will start to melt. once its starting to melt the piston changes shape and the ally surface will start to break away contaminating the sides of the chamber and reducing the sealing ability of the rings, with compromised ring sealing excess blow by occurs and with the excess oil...........

IF pots #1,3,4 are being lazy due to coked exhaust valves then #2 will work harder due to the extra fuel being poured in to all the pots by the governor to keep the engine at its requested power output, as the other pots are running on lower compression dispite being overfueled they wont get as hot as #1 the excess heat over a prolonged period causes more wear which reduces the tension on the rings which then allows excess blow by and that coupled with.... yada yada yada

[TonyC]

Just had a thought, have you PM'd Jase at all ?


Has Jase been around here at all???

I have a mobile number for Jase, it's three years old but I'll PM it to you anyway.

Tony

[wrinklearthur]

ID go with a dodgy injector that was never closing, a piston cooling jet that was blocked or low compression on theo ther 3 pots. but it also looks like #4 has met the valve....

lets speculate for a second on all 3.

IF #2 injector was dribbling enough it would have been washing the bores of lubricant and because of the excess fuel that pot would have been working harder than the rest. The fuel washing would have caused the bores to glaze and under the right conditions the excess fuel would have been cooking that pot. with the bores glazed blowby would have become an issue with the extra blow by combined with too high an oil level theres your runaway, once its gotten wound up enough a little valve float+ bounce has started to occur and because #4 runs the hottest it will typically have the tightest valve clearance if youve only done a cold set on them..

If pot #2 has had no benefit from under side cooling its going to run hotter than normal once the engine is pushed it will start to melt. once its starting to melt the piston changes shape and the ally surface will start to break away contaminating the sides of the chamber and reducing the sealing ability of the rings, with compromised ring sealing excess blow by occurs and with the excess oil...........

IF pots #1,3,4 are being lazy due to coked exhaust valves then #2 will work harder due to the extra fuel being poured in to all the pots by the governor to keep the engine at its requested power output, as the other pots are running on lower compression dispite being overfueled they wont get as hot as #1 the excess heat over a prolonged period causes more wear which reduces the tension on the rings which then allows excess blow by and that coupled with.... yada yada yada

Hi Dave

Close to the mark I think for Serge's motor, but what has bent the conrod in in "Fred's" motor, to the point that it knocked at piece out of the bore in number one cylinder, if as Dougal has suggested the oil from a failed turbo can't do that damage?

I am following this thread with interest, as the Fred is now waiting for a third attempt to get a motor.
The first that I drove into place, on three cylinders, was beyond it with a three strikes and your out policy! It had a hole in the block, missing conrod and damaged crank. When it blew the PO was racing a GT Falcon and pullin away! Why ? the waste gate was jambed shut ! :o

The second attempt, I got it running, but our local guru had told me it had a porous block, but there was no sign of water in the oil even after running it and pressurising the cooling system, but lots of blow by. This motor head will now be used on the motor number three.

Attempt three, brought as a short motor from our local rogue, had a bent conrod in cylinder number one. The piston had part of the oil ring missing and also a slight score down it's lazy side from rubbing the gap out of the cylinder where the conrod had hit it. In the sump was all the missing pieces from the rings and the cylinder, but also a fair selection of turbo bearing remains.
A bit of honing, a slight rub on the piston skirt and had a fiddle with various old conrods for one with a nice fit on the piston (by the way is 0.020 " oversize and that might explain the broken ring too ) I made up a set of rings from here and there, shh don't tell will you, the whole lot went back together nicely after checking the rings for their correct gap. The next step I measured the piston protrusion and can use a two hole head gasket but as I have only three hole ones here that will go on instead.

So I am now left wondering what caused the slight impact marks on that number one piston crown and how much oil needs to be pumped into the induction manifold to have a conrod bend.

After the mix and match Landy I had a horror story going with, I need a break, so Fred and other Landy projects will be ignored until I get a bit more done to my house.
.

[uninformed]

ID go with a dodgy injector that was never closing, a piston cooling jet that was blocked or low compression on theo ther 3 pots. but it also looks like #4 has met the valve....



Dave, what are you looking at that makes you think #4 has met the valve :confused:. I just took a close look at the original picture (before resize) and Im seeing a ring on #1 and on #3 that are the same as the combustion chamber on the piston. I think these are pressure marks in the oil/fuel, but not actually damage on the head or piston....

[Blknight.aus]

the shape of the shiney blob in the picture for pot #4.... if its oil its pooled very nicely in the shape of the valve.

an old trick for finding surface depressions is to pour a very thin film of oil onto it, the oil will pool into the low spots and surface tension will pull the oil into shape

[Dougal]

Leading up to this, Serge had the actuator arm on his VNT turbo break, this locked the turbo into "minimum size" mode. Similar to a plugged wastegate on a small turbo.

But that would impact all cylinders evenly. It doesn't explain why #2 has gone and the others look okay.

[wrinklearthur]

Leading up to this, Serge had the actuator arm on his VNT turbo break, this locked the turbo into "minimum size" mode. Similar to a plugged wastegate on a small turbo.

But that would impact all cylinders evenly. It doesn't explain why #2 has gone and the others look okay.

Thanks Dougal

Not having a VNT to play with myself, is there any detailed drawings about, showing the inner workings of these types of turbo's ?
.

[Dougal]

Thanks Dougal

Not having a VNT to play with myself, is there any detailed drawings about, showing the inner workings of these types of turbo's ?
.

There are many good web-pages which show their operation. There is a good graphic on this page: MotorSportsCenter.com. (http://www.motorsportscenter.com/article_165.shtml)
It is essentially a ring of stator vanes with variable angle (they are linked together) which works to vary the inlet angle of gas into the turbine wheel. The overall effect is an adjustable turbine housing geometry, smaller for earlier spool up, larger for better flow.

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

What I was looking for is, the effect on the seals, resulting from a problem with a sticking mechanism.

Is the turbo that is used on the 2.8TGV a Garrett VNT15 or is it the larger unit?

Found this, which nearly had the exploded drawing that I was looking for.

VNT15-Turbo (http://www.technologie-entwicklung.de/Gasturbines/VNT15-Turbo/vnt15-turbo.html)

Another thing to throw in the mix, what is the effect on a VNT turbo if the air cleaner is nearly blocked and a vacuum develops at the turbo's intake?
.

[Dougal]

Hi All

What I was looking for is, the effect on the seals, resulting from a problem with a sticking mechanism.

Is the turbo that is used on the 2.8TGV a Garrett VNT15 or is it the larger unit?

Found this, which nearly had the exploded drawing that I was looking for.

VNT15-Turbo (http://www.technologie-entwicklung.de/Gasturbines/VNT15-Turbo/vnt15-turbo.html)

Another thing to throw in the mix, what is the effect on a VNT turbo if the air cleaner is nearly blocked and a vacuum develops at the turbo's intake?
.

I beleive a GT2256V is the one on the 2.8. All the small frame garretts are built in a similar way so a VNT15 diagram is still applicable. As long as the turbo can still produce positive boost the intake seal will keep passing air to the centre housing and not leak any appreciable oil outwards.

[uninformed]

the shape of the shiney blob in the picture for pot #4.... if its oil its pooled very nicely in the shape of the valve.

an old trick for finding surface depressions is to pour a very thin film of oil onto it, the oil will pool into the low spots and surface tension will pull the oil into shape

ok, I was looking at the head picture not the piston. I see the blob on #4 and will have a closer inperson inspection.

[wrinklearthur]

I beleive a GT2256V is the one on the 2.8. All the small frame garretts are built in a similar way so a VNT15 diagram is still applicable. As long as the turbo can still produce positive boost the intake seal will keep passing air to the centre housing and not leak any appreciable oil outwards.

I wonder if Serge could verify that for us, the next time he is near the motor?

A four part YouTube video on servicing a stuck VNT turbo.

R-tech Sticky VNT Turbo Repair Part 1 - YouTube
.

[uninformed]

markings on the serial plate on turbo:

724561-0001 GARRETT 79517 KD0030E Made in BRAZIL

compressor housing: D.M GARRETT A/R 52 M-27
turbine housing: A/R 64 M-4
actuator: WAHLER 1/7

[uninformed]

I wonder if Serge could verify that for us, the next time he is near the motor?

A four part YouTube video on servicing a stuck VNT turbo.

R-tech Sticky VNT Turbo Repair Part 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgqDEBEOF_4)
.

What is it that you want me to confirm?

go to this thread: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/143486-boost-lost.html

most is covered in there of the symptom, fix and result. Note, it was fixed, installed and test driven on a Friday night (short run say 3km) then saturday morning a short run (say 5 km) to my mates workshop for its oil change....the rest is history :(

[wrinklearthur]

What is it that you want me to confirm?

Thanks Serge, the info in your previous post was what I was after .

go to this thread: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/143486-boost-lost.html
most is covered in there of the symptom, fix and result. Note, it was fixed, installed and test driven on a Friday night (short run say 3km) then saturday morning a short run (say 5 km) to my mates workshop for its oil change....the rest is history :(

I had a interesting read of that thread and well, that kept me quiet for a while.
I'm sorry Serge, but the seat of the pants dyno you used, in hindsight wasn't the way to go and I am thinking the initial damage ( No 2 injector ) was done even earlier when you had the trouble with the arm that faulted, to what extent that damage was done, is lost now with the motor run away episode.

Where I posted about a excessive amount of combustible material being fed into the motor, still stands.
Air boost pressure didn't rise enough to burn the fuel correctly, causing the piston to melt with the increased temperature.
It's debatable whether the runaway started with the oil being picked up and fed into the induction of the motor, or over fuelling by that injector being damaged and feeding a large amount of diesel directly into that cylinder.
.

[Bush65]

Sorry I still haven't had time to read all posts, basically 1st and last page only.

I suspect the overfilling with oil is a red herring. I have seen 300 Tdi reving there tits off while standing nearly vertical trying to climb dry waterfalls also nearly flipping over tail or nose with no affect from the oil concentrated at one end of the sump.

When the piston was holed the sump might pressurise enough to blow considerable oil from the crankcase vent line into the turbo inlet, then to the inlet manifold leading to runaway and residue in the inlet system.

I can't help thinking faulty injector, and after my previous post also considered a faulty oil cooling jet to #2 piston as Dave has posted.

[Dougal]

What I am also thinking.

An EGT gauge post turbo won't show up one cylinder overfuelling.

[isuzurover]

What I am also thinking.

An EGT gauge post turbo won't show up one cylinder overfuelling.

Depends how much it is overfuelling - but probably not under most conditions.

It is strange that there are 2 HS2.8's mentioned in this thread which have "run away" - yet I have not heard of it in (much more plentiful) 300 Tdis.

On a slight tangent - you may find this interesting:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=1630012#post1630012

[uninformed]

Thanks Serge, the info in your previous post was what I was after .


I had a interesting read of that thread and well, that kept me quiet for a while.
I'm sorry Serge, but the seat of the pants dyno you used, in hindsight wasn't the way to go and I am thinking the initial damage ( No 2 injector ) was done even earlier when you had the trouble with the arm that faulted, to what extent that damage was done, is lost now with the motor run away episode.

Where I posted about a excessive amount of combustible material being fed into the motor, still stands.
Air boost pressure didn't rise enough to burn the fuel correctly, causing the piston to melt with the increased temperature.
It's debatable whether the runaway started with the oil being picked up and fed into the induction of the motor, or over fuelling by that injector being damaged and feeding a large amount of diesel directly into that cylinder.
.

not sure where you are coming from with regards to the "seat-pants-dyno". I only used that and the term as a gauge so to speak. When the actuator rod pin fianlly broke off, it was VERY noticable. Not only a fair power loss, But it co-incided with an increase in boost/turbo whistle noise. I could "feel" straight away it was down on power. So after a quick look and not finding anything obvious, I left it as it was going to the mechanic in 2 days anyway. I drove it very little between then (say 3km) Then to said mechanics. Then home via truck parts and then finding the problem was not resolved, got about fixing it myself. Yes, about 30-40km in total from when it failed.

Now in saying that, there is evidence that it did not just fail (from a perfect working condition) The hole in the actuator rod was "wollowed" out. So even if the pin wa still perfectly in place, there would be some discrepency in its working due to the actuator having to travel further to take up the "slack" in the hole before it started to adjust the vanes.

So maybe that was the start of it, then the 5 days and 30-40km of driving without the vanes moving at all was the big nail (remember I noted double normal EGT's but still under a dangerous max of 550 post turbo.., or so I thought :()...then with piston melt, blow by was pressurizing the crankcase and forcing the now over filled oil up the breather (there is pretty good evidence of that) and into the intake for it to feed on....

just a WAG

[uninformed]

Depends how much it is overfuelling - but probably not under most conditions.

It is strange that there are 2 HS2.8's mentioned in this thread which have "run away" - yet I have not heard of it in (much more plentiful) 300 Tdis.

On a slight tangent - you may find this interesting:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=1630012#post1630012

Ben and Dougal, Im wondering if your points re the placement of EGT sensor probe quite relivent. Lets say that at a given normal rpm/load that the post turbo EGT be 200, could we say that each cylinder was 50 (4x50). Now turbo is failing and due to the physical design of intake #2 gets the majority of problem. Now Post turbo EGTfor the same rpm/load shows 400, but really #1, #3 and #4 are say 70 and #2 is 120....so it suffers the most and starts to fail.

these numbers are just used as an example and yes it is probably way to simplified.....

Just a stab in the dark

[uninformed]

Ben, I looked at your link, but I think its in Chinese :D

regarding the 2 2.8tgvs running away, have you got the numbers on % of idiots that own the 2.8tgv vs the 300tdi.........:eek:

[uninformed]

btw Im not sure that #2 had actually got a hole in it?? but am assuming with the ring and bore damage that pressure could have got past these to pressurize the crankcase....

[uninformed]

I went back to the workshop today to pick up the turbo, Injection pump and injectors. I have dropped the IP and injectors off to be tested. Turbo will be taken to Brisbane on Monday for a going over. Nothing else major found yet...mechanic has said that most stuff is looking very good.

here are a couple of pics:

timing gears, only because the mechanic says they are so much nicer than the 300tdi type.

Cam shaft: he thinks it in very good condition. (no wear)

[uninformed]

So, to those that know, what parts would you replace as a matter of good practice in a engine rebuild?

Im not talking about what is, or may be broken. Rather what parts you just dont use again and replace with new.

I need to order some International specific stuff and only want to do 1 order if possible.

[rainman]

given normal rpm/load that the post turbo EGT be 200, could we say that each cylinder was 50 (4x50).

It doesn't work like that. The EGT is an average of the individual combustion chamber output temperatures, not an accumulation.

I must have missed something about the position of the EGT probe. Isn't common perception is that it should be pre turbo?

Please, correct my if I'm wrong anyone.


James

[rainman]

It doesn't work like that. The EGT is an average of the individual combustion chamber output temperatures, not an accumulation.

I probably should rephrase that:

I didn't think it worked like that. I thought the EGT was an average of the individual combustion chamber output temperatures, not an accumulation.

Sorry :rolleyes:
James.

[uninformed]

It doesn't work like that. The EGT is an average of the individual combustion chamber output temperatures, not an accumulation.

I must have missed something about the position of the EGT probe. Isn't common perception is that it should be pre turbo?

Please, correct my if I'm wrong anyone.


James

Yes, prefferably it should be pre turbo, but not uncommon to be post. I had my mechanic install it ages ago. The exhaust on my truck is from when I had it fitted to the 300tdi. The exhaust shop had installed a fitting just after the exhaust flange (turbo to exhaust) to test egt's for tuning. So later, when I bought a gauge, my mechanic used this fitting for the probe. I have been working on a max of 550c for post turbo but I very VERY rarely get that, and if I do I back off

Now looking at my set up of exhaust manifold and turbo flange, it is not the easiest place to fit the probe, becasue you want it where all 4 cylinders are merged into one, which is right at the flange of the manifold and turbo

[uninformed]

I probably should rephrase that:

I didn't think it worked like that. I thought the EGT was an average of the individual combustion chamber output temperatures, not an accumulation.

Sorry :rolleyes:
James.

to late, I already quoted you...hahahaha :p

I have no idea, it was just a stab....BUT would it not be the same but different. The average is still going to be scewed by the single cylinder that is above the rest, so the probe only reads the combined average, which in my case still below safe EGT reading on my gauge, but it wasnt in reality

[rainman]

Now looking at my set up of exhaust manifold and turbo flange, it is not the easiest place to fit the probe, becasue you want it where all 4 cylinders are merged into one, which is right at the flange of the manifold and turbo

This is a concern of mine at the moment because I'm about to go VNT on my 300Tdi. It would be very easy to just weld the probe fitting into the dump pipe. Good to know what temperature you work on post turbo in case I have to go that way;). Thanks Serg!

James.

[rainman]

Now looking at my set up of exhaust manifold and turbo flange, it is not the easiest place to fit the probe, becasue you want it where all 4 cylinders are merged into one, which is right at the flange of the manifold and turbo

This (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/97088-vnt-turbo-performance-mods-300-tdi-2.html#post1171413) is the post of how Jock in Tasmania did his with his VNT kit, but my probe is about twice the size of his (hehehe, he said "probe" :p) and I'm not sure if I want it interrupting the flow of gases right at that point. Hmmm....

We're probably deviating away from the thread subject a bit here. Sorry.

James.

[uninformed]

This (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/97088-vnt-turbo-performance-mods-300-tdi-2.html#post1171413) is the post of how Jock in Tasmania did his with his VNT kit, but my probe is about twice the size of his (hehehe, he said "probe" :p) and I'm not sure if I want it interrupting the flow of gases right at that point. Hmmm....

We're probably deviating away from the thread subject a bit here. Sorry.

James.

My VDO probe is long to....BUT I think that atleast 1/3 is outside the exhaust. It has the fitting welded, then a reduction nut screwed to that, the the probe. Jock's set up looks like a good spot.

I would like the experts opinion on: #1 is it bad for air flow or readings in any way?
#2 is it any issue re strenghth, warping or cracking to drill and tap the flange like Jock has?

I dont think this is getting to far from topic, as this may have been an integral tool in stopping this engine failure. Maybe a pre turbo egt probe would have told me something different???

[Blknight.aus]

So, to those that know, what parts would you replace as a matter of good practice in a engine rebuild?

Im not talking about what is, or may be broken. Rather what parts you just dont use again and replace with new.

I need to order some International specific stuff and only want to do 1 order if possible.

All the bearings, the bump stick, the crank if its out of spec or on its final oversize (if its my engine, if someone else wants to use a crank on final oversize, their call) followers, depending on condition the rocker shaft and arms. every gaskest, all the cooling system plugs, all the seals, oil pump relief valve spring and ball.

[rick130]

All the bearings, the bump stick, the crank if its out of spec or on its final oversize (if its my engine, if someone else wants to use a crank on final oversize, their call) followers, depending on condition the rocker shaft and arms. every gaskest, all the cooling system plugs, all the seals, oil pump relief valve spring and ball.

What ??!!

The engine is only 70,000km old Dave.
Serg has already posted above that his mechanic reckons the cam looks great with zero wear.

Serg, I'd re-use everything if it mics up OK (and it should) except I'd use new rod bolts, and obviously bearings, gaskets and seals (and I would've thought that was obvious, but Dave mentioned them)
Head bolts should be OK too.

Ask, and they'll probably do it anyway, but I'd have the rods checked for straightness and twist too, maybe the block tunnel bored or at least checked (it's apart anyway) and the crank indexed, although usually on diesels they are a little more careful in their setup and machining at the factory than petrol engine are.
Oil pump relief valve spring too as Dave mentioned.

Any news on the head yet ?
I'd be a little sus on the valves in that #2 cylinder, in which case it's valves, seals, lash caps and check the valve springs just incase too.
Check the retainers and collets but they should be OK after the rev and get Rick to check the roller followers too, but if the cam looks OK they should be fine.
AFAIK all the head bits should be 300Tdi parts.
Check Turner's pricing, it may be even cheaper to get those bits from them in the UK too.

Actually, looking at the parts list the head and valves have MWM part #'s but the springs and retainers use Land Rover #'s ?
Talk on the forums over the last few years reckoned new OE heads were HS2.8, but I'd give Turners a call in the UK and ask.
If anyone knew, they would.

[Blknight.aus]

What ??!!

read again...

what parts would you replace as a matter of good practice in a engine rebuild?


in particular that bit....

best practice not what can you get away with. I'm guessing uninformed wants a total list for a quote and will then whittle best practice VS reasonable.

Hell that engine you'd probably be able to make good again with just one OS piston and a set of rings.

[isuzurover]

What ??!!

The engine is only 70,000km old Dave.
Serg has already posted above that his mechanic reckons the cam looks great with zero wear.

Serg, I'd re-use everything if it mics up OK (and it should) except I'd use new rod bolts, and obviously bearings, gaskets and seals (and I would've thought that was obvious, but Dave mentioned them)
Head bolts should be OK too.

Ask, and they'll probably do it anyway, but I'd have the rods checked for straightness and twist too, maybe the block tunnel bored or at least checked (it's apart anyway) and the crank indexed, although usually on diesels they are a little more careful in their setup and machining at the factory than petrol engine are.
Oil pump relief valve spring too as Dave mentioned.

Any news on the head yet ?
I'd be a little sus on the valves in that #2 cylinder, in which case it's valves, seals, lash caps and check the valve springs just incase too.
Check the retainers and collets but they should be OK after the rev and get Rick to check the roller followers too, but if the cam looks OK they should be fine.
AFAIK all the head bits should be 300Tdi parts.
Check Turner's pricing, it may be even cheaper to get those bits from them in the UK too.

Actually, looking at the parts list the head and valves have MWM part #'s but the springs and retainers use Land Rover #'s ?
Talk on the forums over the last few years reckoned new OE heads were HS2.8, but I'd give Turners a call in the UK and ask.
If anyone knew, they would.

What Rick said.

No need to replace parts that are still good for 500k km +

On the EGT thing, if all cylinders are operating at the same efficiency with the same fuel and air delivery then the outlet should be isothermal. I.e., the temps from each cylinder should be the same (and equal to the temp measured at a prob pre-turbo).

[rick130]

read again...


in particular that bit....

best practice not what can you get away with. I'm guessing uninformed wants a total list for a quote and will then whittle best practice VS reasonable.

Hell that engine you'd probably be able to make good again with just one OS piston and a set of rings.

Semantics.

[slug_burner]

I will just re vist the few facts I have from this whole incident:

max oil amount on refill is 7 litres. I measured plus 2 litres (what I removed)

Turbo was removed and repaired before oil change.

Oil level was checked at dipstick BEFORE starting engine after change. It was high. After a small 5km run home, it was checked again. It was now 15-20mm higher than max on the dipstick.

Lift pump was not working (bent arm) after the over rev incident. Note, manual lever arm can only be moved through 30 degrees from level due to set up on this engine (it fowles on a pipe outlet from oil filter/cooler housing. I have seen some photos of these engines brand new and there is NO lever arm on the outside of lift pump. So hand priming proves nothing.

Oil was found in the bottom hose from turbo to intercooler AND in the intercooler (1/2 a cup in each). Oil was found in the main intake hose from the air cleaner (the bottom of the filter has oil on it), about a table spoon of oil was removed from the main intake hose(Filter to turbo). Engine breather hose (cyclone to air intake) was very oily. Cyclone feed hose is fed of the dipstick pipe (1/2 way up it) cyclone is also attached to the rocker cover same as a 300tdi.

#2 Injector may well be buggered now, but is that a result or cause?

Lift pump main arm may have bent due to either diesel seeping through a split in the diaphragm and then the arm could not compress it and bent. Or it was oil pressurised in under the diaphragm and same result for arm????

I thought that your answer was in the red text. Why all cylinders do not show signs of excess heat is the only fly in the ointment on that theory.

I am with you on the blue text, I doubt that a faulty #2 injector post the event would be conclusive as damage due to the heat is very possible i.e. a result and not a cause.

Without going back over the photos I was not sure about a damaged bore on #2. I could see some drip lines where either oil or diesel has dripped down or been dragged down around the crown of the piston when the engine was turned over. I would need to see if I could feel anything.

This is one for the experienced engine dis-assemblers. When you pull the head off a diesel engine would you normally expect the head and piston crowns to be as shinny as both the runaway engine photos posted? Or is that just as a result of cranking the engine while injecting diesel without the engine firing?

If things were ok on the other three pots shouldn't the engine have fired and run rough?

Which ever way it went we may never know.

[uninformed]

I thought that your answer was in the red text. Why all cylinders do not show signs of excess heat is the only fly in the ointment on that theory.

I am with you on the blue text, I doubt that a faulty #2 injector post the event would be conclusive as damage due to the heat is very possible i.e. a result and not a cause.

Without going back over the photos I was not sure about a damaged bore on #2. I could see some drip lines where either oil or diesel has dripped down or been dragged down around the crown of the piston when the engine was turned over. I would need to see if I could feel anything.

This is one for the experienced engine dis-assemblers. When you pull the head off a diesel engine would you normally expect the head and piston crowns to be as shinny as both the runaway engine photos posted? Or is that just as a result of cranking the engine while injecting diesel without the engine firing?

If things were ok on the other three pots shouldn't the engine have fired and run rough?

Which ever way it went we may never know.

RED: Oil was definitely pumped through, but was it pressurized from #2 failing or just to much oil in the sump :confused:

#2 Bore: I have had my fingers inside it, definitely scored. The mechanic is thinking that +10thou pistons may not be enough, might have to go the +20thou's. The machinest will give me the final verdict on that.

The engine did fire and ran for a true 10 secs at idle. After the lift pump was fixed and fuel was back to the injectors, the battery charged. It shut down itself. I tried maybe another 10 (max ) times to start it. I didnt want to push it if something bad inside :angel:. Once compression was found low in #2 that was the end of starting and straight to the mechanics

[Dougal]

Is sleeving an option for the damaged cylinder? If you put a larger piston in one hole, then you have uneven displacements and uneven compression ratios.

[uninformed]

Is sleeving an option for the damaged cylinder? If you put a larger piston in one hole, then you have uneven displacements and uneven compression ratios.

Yes and yes, so no......we will not be over sizing one piston. It's either sleeve cylinder#2 and use a standard piston, or bore all 4 and go over size.

For the money I will have now spent on engines, I could have bought an Isuzu engine and gearbox, fully rebuilt both, plus turbo set up and custom install.....****!

[Dougal]

Ironically there was a 4BD1 and LT95 setup for sale in NZ a few years back. I asked why and the owner was replacing it with an HS28.

Thought he'd get more power from a newer engine.

[wrinklearthur]

not sure where you are coming from with regards to the "seat-pants-dyno" Sorry Serge, I was amused with this line and used it as evidence that I had read all of that other postings.

Your never too old to learn, when you stop learning you are dead! So what does this quote mean?
just a WAG

I puzzled and googled over this quip for some time, this is what I came up with.

All the latest news and pics concerning Footballers Wives and girlfriends (WAGs).

Nar, not talking about footballers here.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=43731&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1329517120

A manufacturer of dogs wear.

Nar, not talking about a coat for the Chihuahua here.

A huh! Web Album Generator.

Simple WAG output (body only) option? « Technical Support Forums (http://support.ornj.net/topic/simple-wag-output-body-only-option)

Thanks Serge, I live and learn.

[uninformed]

Ironically there was a 4BD1 and LT95 setup for sale in NZ a few years back. I asked why and the owner was replacing it with an HS28.

Thought he'd get more power from a newer engine.

:confused: well Im pretty stupid, but not that stupid. I had the 300tdi from factory. It died. Either $8k rebuild on a 230k engine or a brand new crate long HS2.8 for $12k (that is ment to be more power and better built) It was also ment to be bolt in......or so I was told. Now 70,000km later and another $7-8k and Ill still have a small cube engine and live in constant fear....

If that guy couldnt get his Isuzu rebuilt and better power for the cost of his 2.8 Plus his gearbox, hell he even could of had an Isuzu gearbox for the $$$ he spent.

If I could go back to the day the 300tdi died, I would go the Isuzu route and do it properly....even If it ment having to do a turbo later down the track.

[uninformed]

Sorry Serge, I was amused with this line and used it as evidence that I had read all of that other postings.

Your never too old to learn, when you stop learning you are dead! So what does this quote mean?

I puzzled and googled over this quip for some time, this is what I came up with.

All the latest news and pics concerning Footballers Wives and girlfriends (WAGs).

Nar, not talking about footballers here.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=43731&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1329517120

A manufacturer of dogs wear.

Nar, not talking about a coat for the Chihuahua here.

A huh! Web Album Generator.

Simple WAG output (body only) option? « Technical Support Forums (http://support.ornj.net/topic/simple-wag-output-body-only-option)

Thanks Serge, I live and learn.

Well I dont know what you have been smoking for breakfast :confused:...But WAG is short for Wild Arse Guess.

As far as my stab in the dark theroy....well that was just stupid. If I have a piece of steel in my left hand that is 50c and a piece of steel in my right hand that is 50c, then touch them together, I dont have 100c....still only 50c.

But my point on averages still applies. Average EGT will show you only so much, but hide other info as well

[wrinklearthur]

Well I dont know what you have been smoking for breakfast :confused:...But WAG is short for Wild Arse Guess.

HeHe ! just me being a wag.

[wrinklearthur]

:
If I could go back to the day the 300tdi died, I would go the Isuzu route and do it properly....even If it ment having to do a turbo later down the track.

In light of what has happened, could the Isuzu card be back on the table and keeping the gearbox as is for now?

[uninformed]

In light of what has happened, could the Isuzu card be back on the table and keeping the gearbox as is for now?

logic is telling me yes, but $$$ and time telling me no :( :mad:

It would mean a new cutsom install, engine mounts, bell housing to gearbox, new rads etc etc. It would mean sorucing an engine and one that was in fairly good condition so more $$$..

I do have the Sals rear and upgraded front diff (internal and external) But the R380 is a bit sticky and 300,000k old...and I tow.

to me the only neg of a Isuzu is the weight.

[Blknight.aus]

not as much more than the diesel lump thats already there... bet if we pull the winch and bar off the front you wouldnt notice the difference in handling with the 4bd1 in there.

[uninformed]

yep, and the one in there is already heavier and further forward than the original vehicle the suspension geometry was designed around....compounded once is enough. I have the kit and one day my engine will be 8 inches further back....

[uninformed]

I got word the head is very good for hardness. Apparently valves are ok as well. It is going to be cleaned and rebuilt with new valve stem seals.

Not so good was hearing from the diesel injection shop that hs told me they need to replace all 4 nozzels and some parts for the injectors. They have to get these from Bosch ex Germany for the small price of $840.00 :eek:....now thats about the price of brand new 300tdi injectors, or so I have been told. From the sounds of it the pump is ok, but at over $1k from just the injector shop, this is looking ugly. Parts, machining and labour are going to put this at 3/4 new purchase price IMO :mad:

I have told the Injection shop not to order any parts as of yet, Im going to find out what they cost new from the UK.

I think these injectors are similar but different to the 300tdi. Numbers on the injector are:

KBAL 90 P 37
0432 193 532 TURKEY 939 (939 has a line around it) 782 (<-----the 0432 number is not a phone number as skype would think, bloody pc's)

They are Bosch made. They dont have the same part number in the HS2.8tgv parts catalouge (all Land Rover parts from the 300tdi that are used on this engine share the same part numbers)

[isuzurover]

I think these injectors are similar but different to the 300tdi. Numbers on the injector are:

KBAL 90 P 37
0432 193 532 TURKEY 939 (939 has a line around it) 782 (<-----the 0432 number is not a phone number as skype would think, bloody pc's)

They are Bosch made. They dont have the same part number in the HS2.8tgv parts catalouge (all Land Rover parts from the 300tdi that are used on this engine share the same part numbers)

That is exactly the same as one of the options listed here for Tdis
United Diesel UK &ndash; Land Rover Diesel Injector Parts (http://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/diesel_injectors/land_rover)


Part Number:
0432 193 835 Our Part Number:
0432 193 835R
Number on Injector:
KBAL90P37 O.E. Number:
ERR 3339 Enquire
Model Ltr. kW/hp Engine Code Year of
Manufacture
Defender 110 2.5 Tur 2.5 80 - 83 Gemini TCI D.I 23L 08/1990 - 12/2001
Defender 110 2.5 Tur 2.5 85 Maxion HS4TCC 08/1998 -
Defender 130 2.5 Tur 2.5 85 Maxion HS4TCC 08/1998 -
Defender 130 2.5 Tur 2.5 80 - 83 Gemini TCI D.I 23L 08/1990 - 12/2001
Defender 90 2.5 Turb 2.5 85 Maxion HS4TCC 08/1998 -
Defender 90 2.5 Turb 2.5 80 - 83 Gemini TCI D.I 23L 08/1990 - 12/2001
Discovery 2.5 TDi 2.5 83 19L 10/1993 - 12/1998
Range Rover 1 2.5 D 2.5 83 300 TDi 10/1994 - 04/1996

[rick130]

I got word the head is very good for hardness. Apparently valves are ok as well. It is going to be cleaned and rebuilt with new valve stem seals.

Not so good was hearing from the diesel injection shop that hs told me they need to replace all 4 nozzels and some parts for the injectors. They have to get these from Bosch ex Germany for the small price of $840.00 :eek:....now thats about the price of brand new 300tdi injectors, or so I have been told. From the sounds of it the pump is ok, but at over $1k from just the injector shop, this is looking ugly. Parts, machining and labour are going to put this at 3/4 new purchase price IMO :mad:

I have told the Injection shop not to order any parts as of yet, Im going to find out what they cost new from the UK.

I think these injectors are similar but different to the 300tdi. Numbers on the injector are:

KBAL 90 P 37
0432 193 532 TURKEY 939 (939 has a line around it) 782 (<-----the 0432 number is not a phone number as skype would think, bloody pc's)

They are Bosch made. They dont have the same part number in the HS2.8tgv parts catalouge (all Land Rover parts from the 300tdi that are used on this engine share the same part numbers)

2FH KBAL 90 P 37 is the Bosch 300Tdi part # :confused:

68 quid each from Paddock's in the UK.

Great news about the head too.

Sorry I missed the call today, I was on a roof and the bloody phone hasn't stopped since.

[uninformed]

I do wonder if that # KBAL 90 P37 is the body and the internals different. The old injector I was given and converted into the compression adapter has this number on it, but all the others on it different. The guy that gave it to me said it was from a merc.

[isuzurover]

I do wonder if that # KBAL 90 P37 is the body and the internals different. The old injector I was given and converted into the compression adapter has this number on it, but all the others on it different. The guy that gave it to me said it was from a merc.

There is no reason an HS2.8 wouldn't run the same injectors as a 300Tdi. The difference in capacity is minimal, and it is the IP that controls the amount of fuel delivered, not the injectors.

Forgot to say - good news on the head.

How bad are your injectors??? Enough to melt a piston?

[uninformed]

There is no reason an HS2.8 wouldn't run the same injectors as a 300Tdi. The difference in capacity is minimal, and it is the IP that controls the amount of fuel delivered, not the injectors.

Forgot to say - good news on the head.

How bad are your injectors??? Enough to melt a piston?

I just got off the phone with M&D in the UK. They supply 2.8's, do conversions and supply parts. According to them the nozzels are different. They want 150 pound for a new injector, which is about the same as what the local shop will charge to get new nozzels from germany. While a whole new injector is better, it doesnt help the mine that is being excavted in my wallet :mad:

I only spoke to the diesel shop lady and didnt get to much into it after I heard the numbers $840....my mind went straight into alternatives....

[rick130]

I think it's the main body but you'll have to check what the nozzle numbers are.

I've found on another list that the numbers on the main body we've all found above are for the Sth American Ford Ranger 2.8

Diesel fuel injection,fuel injection pump,diesel parts,Diesel Nozzle,plunger,Delivery valve,Head rotor (http://www.diesel-parts-store.com/bosch_FORD.html)

but the nozzle # should be DSLA140P1112 for the 2.8.

and yes, that main body is also used in a Merc Sprinter with a 2.5 litre engine.

[uninformed]

I think it's the main body but you'll have to check what the nozzle numbers are.

I've found on another list that the numbers on the main body we've all found above are for the Sth American Ford Ranger 2.8

Diesel fuel injection,fuel injection pump,diesel parts,Diesel Nozzle,plunger,Delivery valve,Head rotor (http://www.diesel-parts-store.com/bosch_FORD.html)

but the nozzle # should be DSLA140P1112 for the 2.8.

and yes, that main body is also used in a Merc Sprinter with a 2.5 litre engine.

Would the nozzle part# be on the nozzle? Any idea's where else to shop?

[Dougal]

I've asked a Brazillian if he can help.

[PhilipA]

I've asked a Brazillian if he can help.

Just don't ask him/her to shave you.
Regards Philip A

[uninformed]

Just don't ask him/her to shave you.
Regards Philip A

hair is over rated

[uninformed]

Todays efforts revieled the following:

I went to Gold Coast Diesel Specialist and picked up my injection pimp and injectors. The pump is ok and the injectors need rebuilding. Allan, the main guy there was very helpful and generous with his time. Showing me his workshop and test equipment. This would have to be one of, if not, the cleanest most professional workshops I have been in. Stainless steel beanches everywhere, all tools in purpose built places, rubber floor mats all over and some serious test equipment. They use the factory test specifications to run the pump through various test ranges of load and rpm. The injectors they can get parts for, but have to come from Bosch Germany. He is saying they are speced for the 2.8 Ford Ranger ;) Allan also gave some insite into what may have happend, and going by my explination doubts an injector fail. But they are all damaged as a result.

Then off to Works by Wilson Engineering. These guys are going to do the machine work. I got the call today the best way to go is with 10thou over size pistons. Their reason was that the other bores a good chance of out of round and not to trust re using the other 3 pistons. The scored bore can get used with +10thou. Nathan will also deck the to of the block.

Gilberts Cylinder Head Services was the next stop. Head was above hardness and in very good condition. All Valves in VGC. Valve springs in VGC Head was Hardness, crack and leak tested. New stem seals where used in reassembly.

All 3 of these companies were very professional, took the time to show me what was what and to explain stuff (most over my head).

I recieved a phone call from Mike Vine Turbochargers and the Turbo is fine and ready for pick up.

so $1000 so far(not including the mechanics time for removal stripping etc) and no real work done or parts bought.

I went to the Isuzu dealer and looked at their NNR and NPR range. Getting a quote tomorrow. This engine rebuild is going to coast at the LEAST $8000....and then I still have a truck that is on its limits for work load.

now who has a money tree :(

[isuzurover]

...

I went to the Isuzu dealer and looked at their NNR and NPR range. Getting a quote tomorrow. This engine rebuild is going to coast at the LEAST $8000....and then I still have a truck that is on its limits for work load.

now who has a money tree :(


Serg - About time you bought a dedicated work vehicle so you can keep the isuzu for play. What about an NLS200?


NEW ISUZU NLS 200 Cab Chassis
$43,400*

2250 kg load capacity. Should be enough ;)

Sounds like you might have to sell a few saws... :(

[uninformed]

Serg - About time you bought a dedicated work vehicle so you can keep the isuzu for play. What about an NLS200?



2250 kg load capacity. Should be enough ;)

Sounds like you might have to sell a few saws... :(

AWD is not really needed. I had LR as my choice, it helped when my trailer grew to its current weight and size. But if I go to a small truck, the jobs I go on, rarely need AWD as Ill end up with dedicated tool boxes in the truck and no tool trailer.

Looking at the 3ltr NNR in short. That will have a 3.3m tray. Plenty for me.

Where did you get that price from and was it for new? Thats cheaper than the NNR in 2wd :confused:

Funny you should say that, 90% of my saw stuff is now for sale.

[isuzurover]

Where did you get that price from and was it for new? Thats cheaper than the NNR in 2wd :confused:

Tony Ireland Isuzu Townsville. Was advertised as "new" - but may have been a demo.

It is worth trying dealers further afield. An uncle is a farmer just north of Brisbane, and when he needed a new Toyota, Mike Carney in townsille could beat all the Brisbane dealers by a long way - delivered to his door.

[rick130]

[snip]
I went to the Isuzu dealer and looked at their NNR and NPR range. Getting a quote tomorrow. This engine rebuild is going to coast at the LEAST $8000....and then I still have a truck that is on its limits for work load.

now who has a money tree :(

Triple ouch :(

BTW, what did the diesel specialist think about causes ?