So nice of Mr abbott

[ramblingboy42]

isn't it? he's going to give our troops permission to defend themselves.

the rest of you may add comments ....I'm gobsmacked.
Islamic State: Tony Abbott warns troops may be forced to fire in Iraq, insists there is no 'intention' for combat - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-17/no-intention-to-send-troops-into-combat-pm/5750984)

[seano87]

It would be funny, if it wasn't so distinctly unfunny.

I'm just at a loss for words this week over it.

[Pickles2]

Rambling,..i've noticed you're a big fan of Tony!
I read the article, it's quite plain,....no combat troops on the ground, but those that are there will be armed (I'm glad they are), & "IF THEY ARE FIRED UPON", THEY WILL FIRE BACK.......wouldn't you expect them to?
I reckon Tony's doing OK on the overseas stuff at the moment.
Pickles.

[BMKal]

Rambling,..i've noticed you're a big fan of Tony!
I read the article, it's quite plain,....no combat troops on the ground, but those that are there will be armed (I'm glad they are), & "IF THEY ARE FIRED UPON", THEY WILL FIRE BACK.......wouldn't you expect them to?
I reckon Tony's doing OK on the overseas stuff at the moment.
Pickles.

In the eyes of some ................. some people can't do anything right, can they.

Small minds ............................ :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[Chucaro]

Even if I dislike the man I agree with him, the government and the opposition in what are they doing.
This ISIS mob is like a cancer in humanity and if we not doing something soon it will keep spreading out of control.
My worry is if Indonesia does not shut well the borders, from there to PNG is a short step and then Australia.

Regarding our soldiers in the ground I do not think that this time they can be without arms. The only thing that I would change will be shoot first and ask question later instead of return fire.
The criminals cowers of ISIS will not respect even unarmed UN personnel.

[Pickles2]

Even if I dislike the man I agree with him, the government and the opposition in what are they doing.
This ISIS mob is like a cancer in humanity and if we not doing something soon it will keep spreading out of control.
My worry is if Indonesia does not shut well the borders, from there to PNG is a short step and then Australia.

Regarding our soldiers in the ground I do not think that this time they can be without arms. The only thing that I would change will be shoot first and ask question later instead of return fire.
The criminals cowers of ISIS will not respect even unarmed UN personnel.
Chuc,..What is happening?...This is the SECOND post of yours that I've agreed with today!!!....particularly line 3.
Pickles.

[Fatso]

His comment was probably the result of some dumb journo,s question .

[Chucaro]

Chuc,..What is happening?...This is the SECOND post of yours that I've agreed with today!!!....particularly line 3.
Pickles.

I have told you before mate, wait for the opportunity to be together with a good red and a plate with prime red meat and we will agree 100% :D
This method of communication it is not the best, I like to red faces to make sure that people understand what I ma trying to say :)

[ramblingboy42]

When did Iraq become our enemy?

If it was peacekeeping role I wouldn't mind.

[Pickles2]

"Enemy"?..As a well known Australian once said,..."Please Explain"?
Pickles.

[ramblingboy42]

oh come on Pickles.....we are sending in combat forces.....you don't send in combat forces unless they are going to fight.

they are fully armed combat forces.

combat forces fight enemies.

so, is Iraq our enemy?

if we fight IS forces, are they Iraqis?

[p38arover]

This method of communication it is not the best, I like to red faces to make sure that people understand what I ma trying to say :)

What? You want to get them red in the face from too much wine so that they will understand your Spanglish and agree with you? You devil, you! :D

[Pickles2]

oh come on Pickles.....we are sending in combat forces.....you don't send in combat forces unless they are going to fight.

they are fully armed combat forces.

combat forces fight enemies.

so, is Iraq our enemy?

if we fight IS forces, are they Iraqis?
Mate, I asked you to exlain why "IRAQ" is our enemy.
In terms of your last line, yes will will be fighting IS, but as I understand it, so will IRAQ,..or am I wrong there?
Quite plainly they(Iraq) are not(our enemy), so I await your explanation of what you have said,....please.
Pickles.

[ramblingboy42]

I questioned it....I didn't state it.

[DiscoMick]

His comment just sounded like a statement of the bleeding obvious to me, so I wouldn't criticize him for it.
IS is certainly unacceptable and has to be stopped and we should do our part. But we have to be very careful of mission creep dragging us in deeper than we should be. The fight against IS is first and foremost one for their neighbours. Our role is support, as Obama has said.
I think the most likely result is IS will hide among the Sunni population and melt back into their part of Syria. Then the question becomes if the fight is taken into Syria.
Not so long ago people in the west were supporting those fighting against Assad in Syria. Now we're proposing to fight those who are fighting Assad in Syria. How times change.
It reminds me of how America armed the Afghan tribes to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, which partly resulted in the rise of the Taliban as a force of Islamic students (Taliban is the plural of talib = student), who then became the enemy.
Today's ally can become tomorrow's enemy.
In Iraq we're arming the Kurds who have been fighting for their own homeland between Iraq and Turkey. Once IS is gone the Kurds are going to resume their fight for their homeland, so on it goes.
It's a vicious battle for survival and we need to keep our eyes wide open or we'll be sucked down into it again.

[Pickles2]

Disco, sounds reasonable to me, particularly line 4, "hide" & "melt back",....always the way over in those parts,..VERY difficult to seek them out?
Pickles.

[incisor]

or we'll be sucked down into it again.

oops....

the government of iraq is who sent the invite..

what percentage of the iraqi people does the government represent?

obviously there are iraqi's who support IS or they wouldn't have a foothold.

seems to me the problem over there is a lack of respect for other human beings...

be it syria, iraq, iran afghanistan pakistan or the arab nations there is always this undercurrent of a total disrespect for others even tho they constantly profess to be doing things in the name of their god.

think i much prefer mine ;)

[UncleHo]

We, as a nation should be careful not to be drawn into another Vietnam, where daytime friends were night time enemies,no more so than in the US forces largest base.

[Gerokent]

As Obama said; IS won't be beaten by military might. The idealogy needs to change. To do that is a form of brain washing in itself.

[boa]

As Obama said; IS won't be beaten by military might. The idealogy needs to change. To do that is a form of brain washing in itself.

I would use the term education it has worked before to change things . But it is hard to either brainwash or educate the fanatics. Unfortunately the only answers I see is the same as ww2. Kill enough military and civilian people that the rest realize they are not going to win. Germany and the fire bombing as well as Japan and it's fire bombing and atomic bombs. Sad but to me the only answer.

[Gerokent]

I would use the term education it has worked before to change things . But it is hard to either brainwash or educate the fanatics. Unfortunately the only answers I see is the same as ww2. Kill enough military and civilian people that the rest realize they are not going to win. Germany and the fire bombing as well as Japan and it's fire bombing and atomic bombs. Sad but to me the only answer.


They had re-education camps in Pol Pot's time didn't they?

[boa]

So what is your solution?. I only know that to do nothing won't work either. Education I was talking about was more of a chance for the Local people. Or we draw a line and say you do what ever in your sandpit and we will do what we want. But give the people who want out a chance to do it?.

[ramblingboy42]

I'm wondering if these people think laterally......

[Roverlord off road spares]

We, as a nation should be careful not to be drawn into another Vietnam, where daytime friends were night time enemies,no more so than in the US forces largest base.
Which worries me, as little man Abbott is playing big shot.
Notice how other countries like UAE aren't buying in, their too busy making making oil to sell to the yanks.

[Pickles2]

Which worries me, as little man Abbott is playing big shot.
Notice how other countries like UAE aren't buying in, their too busy making making oil to sell to the yanks.
Terrible response from you.....& I might have to buy bits from you!
Tony is doing a great job,.....He is standing up for what is right,.......or don't you agree with that.
Tell me what you don't agree with what Tony is saying with respect to ISAL?
Pickles.

[kowari]

So many of these little wars lately, perhaps we should arm both sides and stand back.
When its over, we pulverise the winner.

[Chucaro]

Terrible response from you.....& I might have to buy bits from you!
Tony is doing a great job,.....He is standing up for what is right,.......or don't you agree with that.
Tell me what you don't agree with what Tony is saying with respect to ISAL?
Pickles.

Pickles, for those that are against remind them that the ALP also support the government.
Only the dreamers that think that we can stop this madness with a hand bag are against of what Australia is doing.
Having said that I would like to see Australia be there for not more of 6 months together with USA and NATO and after that protect our borders and reinforce our domestic capabilities against the loner wolfs.

[ramblingboy42]

the dotage is nearly making me sick.......

[Roverlord off road spares]

Terrible response from you.....& I might have to buy bits from you!
Tony is doing a great job,.....He is standing up for what is right,.......or don't you agree with that.
Tell me what you don't agree with what Tony is saying with respect to ISAL?
Pickles.
Hey Pickles please don't make it personal when some one disagrees with your views. It is an open forum and both sides have a right of opinion.
I just believe that there a a lot of terrible things happening in the world. Yet only places of American national interest (OIL) are areas that are addressed. Obama has asked Australia to Help. Again to protect American interest (Oil).
What we don't need is Australia to get into a another drawn out unwinable war. Abbott says air support, but it will develop into combat forces on the ground, these things have a habit of start escalating from this.
Cheers,
Mario

[Gerokent]

Hey Pickles please don't make it personal when some one disagrees with your views. It is an open forum and both sides have a right of opinion.
I just believe that there a a lot of terrible things happening in the world. Yet only places of American national interest (OIL) are areas that are addressed. Obama has asked Australia to Help. Again to protect American interest (Oil).
What we don't need is Australia to get into a another drawn out unwinable war. Abbott says air support, but it will develop into combat forces on the ground, these things have a habit of start escalating from this.
Cheers,
Mario

This isn't about oil, it's about preventing Australian's from getting their (mine, yours) heads getting chopped off in our own country !!!

[101RRS]

Irrespective of thoughts one way or the other, I find it sad that from about the time of the Bosnian crisis 20 years ago it has been the US that has had to form these coalitions.

Where has been the UN - the body set up to supposedly deal with issues like this.

The UN Security Council is not going to meet until next week to even start discussions on this crisis. While I would not like it if there was no action because of a Veto, on this issue there is not likely to be a veto yet the UN does nothing.

The US went into Bosnia and Serbia because the UN did nothing and it is having to do it again because the UN is doing nothing. The world and the US itself does not like being the world policeman but when the organisation set up to deal with this is a lame duck, I think this sort of action by the US and its allies will just have to continue.

The UN is reasonable as a peace keeper but is no good as a peace enforcer.

Garry

[Pickles2]

Hey Pickles please don't make it personal when some one disagrees with your views. It is an open forum and both sides have a right of opinion.
I just believe that there a a lot of terrible things happening in the world. Yet only places of American national interest (OIL) are areas that are addressed. Obama has asked Australia to Help. Again to protect American interest (Oil).
What we don't need is Australia to get into a another drawn out unwinable war. Abbott says air support, but it will develop into combat forces on the ground, these things have a habit of start escalating from this.
Cheers,
Mario
G'Day Mario, NOT personal at all, I'm just saying that (IMHO) your response was terrible,...why?,because simply, I think the subject is a lot bigger than having a shot at a Poly. "Little man Abbott playing big shot"? You mightn't like the man, but at the moment He's doing a pretty fair job on this "Terrorist" stuff.
As far as "personal" is concerned, well you're having a fairly "personal" go at Tony?
But to be serious, I think the current Isal stuff is way more important than "having a go" at a Poly who is doing ok on the Isal/Terrorist issue, his stance being supported by Labor.
But for sure, it's only my opinion/your opinion whatever!!!...We've all got one.
Pickles.

[Chucaro]

........................................... Yet only places of American national interest (OIL) are areas that are addressed. Obama has asked Australia to Help. Again to protect American interest (Oil).
.................................................. ...............
Cheers,
Mario

What brings to my memory the Rwandan genocide,
There were no U.S. troops officially in Rwanda at the onset of the genocide. A National Security Archive report points out five ways in which decisions made by the U.S. government contributed to the slow U.S. and worldwide response to the genocide:

The U.S. lobbied the U.N. for a total withdrawal of U.N. (UNAMIR) forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
The Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term "genocide" until May 21, and even then, U.S. officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
Bureaucratic infighting slowed the U.S. response to the genocide in general;
The U.S. refused to jam extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing, citing costs and concern with international law;
U.S. officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence but did not follow up with concrete action.
And the list is going on.........:(

[Chucaro]

How David Pope see it

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/779.jpg

[Roverlord off road spares]

What brings to my memory the Rwandan genocide,
There were no U.S. troops officially in Rwanda at the onset of the genocide. A National Security Archive report points out five ways in which decisions made by the U.S. government contributed to the slow U.S. and worldwide response to the genocide:

The U.S. lobbied the U.N. for a total withdrawal of U.N. (UNAMIR) forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
The Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term "genocide" until May 21, and even then, U.S. officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
Bureaucratic infighting slowed the U.S. response to the genocide in general;
The U.S. refused to jam extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing, citing costs and concern with international law;
U.S. officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence but did not follow up with concrete action.
And the list is going on.........:(
Rwanda, Cambodia with Pol Pot Genocide, The Balkans war- ethinc cleansing, The Ukrainian Situation, Israel/Palestianian conflict, all these went or go on Australia never made a stand. So why are we involved in Afghan and Iraq? Because the US asked, again to protect American interests. Those other situations were of no benefit to America so the US took no action or ask their allies to intervene.
It doesn't matter if it's Labor or Liberal at the reigns.

[Pickles2]

Rwanda, Cambodia with Pol Pot Genocide, The Balkans war- ethinc cleansing, The Ukrainian Situation, Israel/Palestianian conflict, all these went or go on Australia never made a stand. So why are we involved in Afghan and Iraq? Because the US asked, again to protect American interests. Those other situations were of no benefit to America so the US took no action or ask their allies to intervene.
It doesn't matter if it's Labor or Liberal at the reigns.
"American Interests"?.....So you think that what we are facing, & what will be further revealed in the coming days is "American Interests"?
I don't think so.
I ain't saying the U.S. is perfect, ....who is?......but on the current scenario of "Terrorism", & proven threats (or don't you agree) to our Country, we need to be united, stand together, & do whatever is necessary to eradicate these arseholes, which is exactly what Tony is trying to do.(Or don't you agree)
FORGET PARTY POLITICS, if Bill Shorten was doing the same thing (which actually he is, in supporting Tony), I would be right behind him, and I would not be taking "shots " at him, when He was obviously doing his best to act in AUSTRALIA'S interests.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Irrespective of thoughts one way or the other, I find it sad that from about the time of the Bosnian crisis 20 years ago it has been the US that has had to form these coalitions.

Where has been the UN - the body set up to supposedly deal with issues like this.

The UN Security Council is not going to meet until next week to even start discussions on this crisis. While I would not like it if there was no action because of a Veto, on this issue there is not likely to be a veto yet the UN does nothing.

The US went into Bosnia and Serbia because the UN did nothing and it is having to do it again because the UN is doing nothing. The world and the US itself does not like being the world policeman but when the organisation set up to deal with this is a lame duck, I think this sort of action by the US and its allies will just have to continue.

The UN is reasonable as a peace keeper but is no good as a peace enforcer.

Garry


IMO, Russia & China would veto, Bob